August 10, 2025 • 51 mins
Triaging Stress: From Emergency Room to Everyday Life with Dr. Leigh Vinocur, MD
In this enlightening episode, Dian Griesel hosts Dr. Leigh Vinocur, MD, a distinguished emergency room physician and author of the new book 'Never Let Them See You Sweat.' They discuss the challenges of staying calm under pressure, the science behind managing stress, and practical methods to harness stress for success. Dr. Vinocur shares personal anecdotes, discusses the biological responses to stress, and provides valuable insights on enhancing resilience and mental well-being. She also highlights the importance of supporting others in high-stress environments and balancing professional and personal life.
Join us for an engaging conversation brimming with practical advice and science-backed strategies that you can apply in your daily life to manage stress effectively. You'll leave feeling empowered and equipped to take on life's challenges with a calm and collected mind.
Please SUBSCRIBE! I’m Dian Griesel, Ph.D. aka @SilverDisobedience to my hundreds of thousands of monthly blog readers. You can learn more about me here: https://diangriesel.com
But for starters…I am a perception analyst, hypnotherapist, author of 16 books and a Wilhelmina model. For 30 years I have helped my clients to achieve greater understanding as to how perceptions impact everything we do whether personally or professionally.
This episode was recorded in collaboration with The Manhattan Center, New York City, New York. https://www.themanhattancenter.com/
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:50 Understanding Stress and Its Biological Basis
02:06 Managing Stress: Techniques and Training
05:17 Triage Your Stress: Lessons from the ER
06:45 Women and Stress: Unique Challenges and Solutions
15:04 The Role of Vanity and Self-Care in Stress Management
22:02 Science-Backed Stress Relief Methods
27:55 Doctors and Gender: Personal Experiences
28:26 Analyzing Medical Data: Gender Differences
28:57 Heart Disease and Gender Bias
30:33 Pharmaceutical Research and Gender
32:43 The Rise of the Google Doctor
35:47 Mind-Body Connection in Medicine
39:57 Longevity and Lifestyle Choices
42:24 The Role of Stress in Health
44:29 Personal Stories and Reflections
49:32 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, I have a question for you.
How hard is it to stay calm under pressure?
My answer would probably be sometimes very hard if I was
being honest and I think we could all say that.
And who better to tackle this topic stressed and calm under
(00:21):
pressure, then Doctor Lee Venoker, who is an emergency
room physician who highly regarded medical Doctor Who's
been in the emergency room for years.
So you can't even imagine the kind of stress.
I sure can't imagine the kind ofstress she's had to be under.
And now she has a new book out called Never Let Them See You
(00:42):
Sweat. So welcome, Doctor Venoker, I'm
so excited to have you here. Thank you, Diane.
I'm excited to be here. OK, so you have clearly, as an
emergency room physician, been under all kinds of stress, all
kinds of situations unimaginableto most of our even
imaginations. How'd you cope?
(01:05):
Translate that into never letting them see you sweat.
Well, actually a lot of medicineis a little bit like that, this
sort of stoicism that you have to be calm.
You might not be that way in theinside.
You might be screaming, sweatingon the inside, but you know, you
don't want to come into an ER indire straits and have your
(01:28):
emergency physician, you know, sweating.
But the other part of it is, youknow, how science can help us
manage stress and turn it into success.
So that that's the key part of this.
And it's sort of the lessons that I learned along the way
(01:48):
with some of the anecdotes that I had.
But what's backed by science on how to manage stress?
Because stress, not all stress is bad.
And stress does need to to be managed as a tool, especially
chronic stress, because it leadsto all kinds of medical
problems, so. Yeah.
So let's talk about training, since you mentioned training and
(02:11):
then the biology or the science of it, where what can we train
to overcome our biology to naturally like have that
adrenaline go from zero to 60 super fast and everything else
that happens scientifically, hormonally and biologically?
(02:32):
Right. So, you know, stress is more
than a feeling. You're right.
It's a biologic response, and it's actually an evolutionary
response that was developed to help us survive, right?
If you're being chased by a predator, you need all these
things to happen. It's the hypothalamic pituitary
adrenal access. So in the brain, the area, the
(02:55):
amygdala that detects fear. And then what happens is this
cascade of sympathetic response comes out.
So those things like your pupilsdilate, so you get more
peripheral vision. If you're running from a
predator, you start breathing faster, you get more blood and
oxygen to your muscles. Your digestive system shuts down
(03:19):
because you want to divert bloodthere.
So those are all great for acutestresses and really, you know,
but this chronic cortisol levels, catecholamines like
adrenaline, chronic level is what's creating harm.
And even today, you know, we can't tell the difference, you
(03:41):
know, emails that are, you know,filling our box with emergency
situations versus running from apredator.
So we haven't learned evolutionarily to distinguish
that difference. But in certain situations, if
you think about it, short burstsof that are good.
You know, I can tell you if you're an Olympic swimmer or
(04:02):
runner and you're in the blocks,you need that burst of
adrenaline to go. And truthfully, as an ER doctor,
when you're standing in the resuscitation room waiting for
the ambulance to come in with a multi vehicle trauma or whatever
and your whole team's there, youneed that burst of energy.
But then when it's all over, youneed to be able to let it go and
(04:24):
not make. How?
Do you do that? You mean you just gave me
goosebumps describing, you know,you know, there's been an
accident. You know, those people are
coming in. How do you channel that energy
that you've got to be feeling that stress?
Because if you could take that from an emergency room and know
(04:44):
how to transition it to a boardroom and you could help
people understand that. I mean, what an asset?
Well, that's entirely what the book is kind of about and what I
say in your personal life and a lot of times in the emergency
department or ER, right? You know, you have this trauma
code, then you're running to another code and another code,
and your level is up there for the entire shift, OK.
(05:08):
And it does take its toll. That's why I call emergency
medicine a young person's sport,right?
Because after a while it can take its toll.
But even when in the book, and Idescribe it, it too, that's
important for all individuals tothink about is to triage your
stress, right? So triage is a system in the ER
(05:30):
like, you know, it's not a firstcome, first serve.
Anyone that's been to the ER knows that, right?
But that's good because if you have a minor laceration and
someone's coming in with a heartattack, we want to take the most
severe person back. You don't want to stand in line
with the paper cut guys. So, so that's important and
triaging is, is the most important.
(05:51):
Unfortunately, a lot of us in the ER have seen like mass
casualties, right? And if you think about it,
whatever colors you use or whatever you decide, there are
some people that are seriously injured and no matter what you
do, nothing's going to help them.
Then there are some people that are have such minor injuries
that they're going to be fine nomatter what you do.
(06:13):
So what you need to do when you're say at a mass casualty is
determine and tag who are the people that are sick but will
survive or do better with intervention.
And I tell people that's what they need to do with their
stresses. The guy that cuts you off in the
highway, I mean, what are you going to do?
Chase him down the highway? And then in today's world, he's
going to, you know, smash into you have a gun.
(06:36):
I mean, there are certain stresses that you have every day
that aren't going to change yourlife.
And you have to learn that it's not worth it.
You know, I talk in this book and my hope in the book, it's
actually geared more towards women.
And I talk about my mom a lot inthe book with my experiences
because she wasn't a doctor at all, but when she was my best
(06:58):
stress reliever. But when I would stress about
something with her, she would say to me, really, Lee, is this
worth getting cancer or heart attack over?
Because that's what sustained stress does.
So she was already kind of teaching me, you need to triage
it. And that's what you need to say
to yourself. If it is something that you have
(07:18):
control of that is going to change your course in life or
something important, then you know, that's what you have to
tackle. But everything on either end,
you know, there are some things that might bother you a lot, but
there's nothing you can do, right?
You know, changes in in elections and things like that,
you know, there's nothing you can do.
So, so you have to, you know, find that lane where this is
(07:43):
going to affect your life. You have some control over it
and then decide on what to do. I probably recite the Serenity
Prayer 100 times a day. It's.
Exactly. It's exactly like that.
So that's key. And then in the book, I also
talk about, you know, different kind of methods to do it.
And there there are a whole bunch of different methods to do
(08:07):
it. But I think, you know, even
medicine, you know, we talk about this idea of, you know,
sort of never let him see you sweat and how you handle things
under pressure. But to really get that
resilience, you need a system tosupport you too.
And I think emergency medicine is, is changing that way.
I, I wrote an article for Fast Company because burnout is an
(08:31):
issue, right? In all forms of businesses,
burnout is an issue, but it's particularly stressful in
medicine today. So the key is, you know, you
need support from a system. And I think a lot of, as I said
when I talk about my mom attributing it to, she was
supportive. I mean, I didn't think now that
(08:53):
she's passed away that I would be able to carry on, but I
realized her support actually created that resilience in me.
And that's why it is important that systems need to examine
this too. You know, it isn't just this
stoicism where you think you're OK.
Because I do talk about in the book a lot, suicide is very high
(09:15):
among physicians as a group. And it's this idea, there's
issues with credentialing. There's this idea of admitting
this vulnerability. Is that going to affect your
hospital credentials? There is this underlying tone
that if you have any mental health issues, you maybe are not
(09:38):
fit to practice and and it's it's not fair.
Physicians are humans too, right?
They go through divorce, they gothrough grieving, they lose
spouses, they lose children and they should be not penalized in
their line of work. I mean, we advocate for the
mental health of our patients and it's a little ironic that we
can't advocate for our own mental health.
(10:00):
So I discussed that in the book and that's.
That's such an interesting point.
You mentioned something a littlebit ago, you said you primarily
wrote this for women. Why did you say that?
Because is there a difference inhow you think women or men are
perceiving? Stress.
I think men can perceive it, butI think women have truthfully
(10:24):
the biggest burden or load of stress because it isn't just
work, it's caregiving, it's home.
And it's this perception. When I would go out and talk,
you know, women would come up tome afterwards and they're like,
wow, how do you do it all? And I'm like, I don't do it all.
I am a neurotic perfectionist. I have all the same insecurities
(10:49):
that any other woman. And I, what happened is, and
I've changed, pivoted in my career, different specialties
and then done other things with medicine in both business and
startups and things like that. And I've, you know, because I
consider myself a lifelong learner and I love learning new
(11:11):
things. And I saw so many incredible
women that were stuck in situations, whether it was
extreme, like I've seen in the ER, domestic violence
situations, which can be deadly or very unhappy in, in marriages
or very unhappy in work. And they, they were afraid, they
were afraid of failure. They were stuck.
And I wanted to encourage them and say everybody is feeling
(11:35):
that way. You know, you, you have to just
allow yourself to do that. And I talk about some of the
epic fails and things I've had, I've had, you know, big failures
too. So I wanted, I wanted to give, I
felt like my mother gave me the confidence to feel whether I
(11:56):
could or not like I could do anything I put my mind to.
And a lot of times I tried and Icouldn't and I failed.
But other times I did and I succeeded.
And what I wanted to do with this book was provide that for
so many incredible women that I've learned met all along the
way, like yourself, for instance.
So that's why it's sort of geared towards women.
(12:18):
And I talk about a lot of thingsin the book situations with me,
you know, breastfeeding and things like that, that, you
know, even my husband reading and he goes, yeah, yeah, I could
see where this is a little geared more towards women.
But the overall lessons I think anybody can take from stress,
triaging your stress, things like that.
Biologically, do women and men respond differently?
(12:43):
Well, so despite the fight or flight response is essentially
the same and it does cause situations like in men that
constant stress can lead to low testosterone levels and all the
issues with that. In women, it can lead to
hormonal disruptions and, and both of them, it can lead
(13:04):
increased inflammation, can leadto diabetes, metabolic syndrome,
gaining weight, heart disease. So in those respects, it it's
similar physiologically, but I think women internalize things
differently, you know, and I hope people, I mean that not in
a sexist way. I think we do.
(13:27):
We we are people pleasers sometimes more often than not.
I mean, takes a longer time in your life as a woman to realize,
you know, you get to an age where you're like, oh, screw it,
you know, whatever. But I think, you know, early on
we do that and holding people together, you know, even family
(13:48):
health, if you look at statistics, who makes the health
decision in the family, it's usually the woman.
Men usually don't go to physicians until they're
pestered if they're married and or and what?
But I think the response and theinternalization of it is a
little different. So, and the fact that I really
attribute all of the things I'vedone to the love and support,
(14:12):
unconditional support that I gotfrom my mother.
And I wanted to be able to do that for other women.
I'm a big believer in women lifting up other women.
OK, Well then that gives me the perfect segue to say I'm sitting
across from you and I'm looking at a very beautiful woman who
looks like she's in really good shape and does not look stressed
(14:33):
at all. I mean, you do not look like
you're carrying any stress. You look like you take care of
yourself physically and it lookslike it's showing in your skin
and your eyes are vibrant so. It's an effort.
Well, it is an effort. And how do you, what would be
(14:54):
key things you would say to people that you apply to keep
yourself in this kind of physical state of being?
Well, you know, it's funny. I have a little chapter called
all about vanity to tell you thetruth.
(15:14):
And you know, I say that vain isnot a four letter word, you
know, And you know when when youtalk to women and you're telling
them that they need this becausetheir triglycerides are too high
or their cholesterol, it kind ofglosses over.
And I used to make a joke that Ididn't believe in any medication
unless it had a cosmetic result.But, you know, vanity is sort of
(15:39):
a little secret to keeping yourself healthy.
And it's the vanity side effect is that maybe you are exercising
more and your cholesterol levelsare going down.
So my feeling is, why not use something like that?
You know, I know it has these indications of frivolity.
And, you know, women are supposed to not think about
(16:01):
those things. But I always in that chapter
too, I say, look, you need to dofor yourself what makes you feel
good for you. Like, I don't do these things so
that somebody else would say, oh, you look attractive.
Oh, you look younger than your age.
You need to do it for yourself. OK.
(16:23):
So it's not an objectification truthfully, because you're
really doing it for yourself andthat and that's what I say and
it builds confidence. I mean, there is something, and
I talk about a study about a badhair day right when you feel
like your hair. Is what I'm feeling like I'm
having in this humidity? You know, it looks great, but I
(16:43):
get it. Humidity is not your friend, is
not our friend with hair, but it's true.
You know, you, when you think you look the best, you feel the
best, and that's part of it. So, so those are sort of the
motive, motivating factors that I try and give to women too,
that, you know, don't do it for somebody else.
(17:03):
Don't try and look like a celebrity, you know, and don't
do it for social media, which I think makes everybody feel bad
now because nobody's going to put themselves on social media
when they're looking like crap, right?
You know, so and yeah, I did blow my hair for you today, so.
But a lot of days I don't. And when I came into the city, I
(17:27):
was wearing a baseball cap. So But yeah, it's doing doing
these things for you is a big part of it.
And I do talk a little bit aboutvanity and exercising, but all
those things also can help reduce stress too.
You know, exercise is excellent for reducing stress and that's
part of it, you know, you know, I swim sometimes and when I'm in
(17:52):
the water and I'm just listeningto my breathing as I'm going
back and forth, you can feel yourself relax.
So, so there's a list of different things that you can
do. But I, I really want to give
women permission and some grace to give themselves a little
space, right? Don't don't be so tough on
(18:13):
yourself all the time right, right.
That's the problem, you know, iswe feel like everything has to
be perfect and I so. How would you choose this title
then? Never let them see you sweat.
Is this a tongue in cheek title?Yeah, it's sort of like, you
know, how I functioned in the ER, but it's it's a point to say
(18:35):
you can use science to reduce your stress, but you need to.
I talk about all the ridiculous funny.
You know, it's very a lot of my experiences are, you know, I
make fun of myself a lot and andI don't take myself too
seriously and and I use those asexamples to show people and
(19:02):
women that you can give yourselfsome space and grace.
Things don't always work out perfectly, but to keep trying,
right? But to keep trying but and I I
talk about. Stories as my theory, right?
Right as you're proving, you're writing about them in your book.
Right, exactly. I mean, I, I do recall one time
(19:23):
and there's this incident in thebook and I know perfectionism
is, is a problem with me, problem with women.
You know, my son had this project when he was, I don't
know, maybe 10. And he was building this paper
mache model of Mont say Michellein France.
And it was on the thing and it, you know, it's on an island and
it actually looked pretty good. But then the, around the board,
(19:48):
it was there. He painted just a little bit of
blue because it was in the ocean.
And I was like, well, don't you want the whole rest of the board
to be blue? And he's like, no.
I said, Are you sure? I said because it would be
perfect if the whole blue and he, you know, at the age of 10,
he was smarter than me. He said, you know, mom, not
(20:10):
everything's perfect in life. And it was driving me crazy that
I actually painted it. When he went to sleep, he was so
mad. He did not talk to me.
Like I could not let it go. So the point is, you know, I, I
am very imperfect and embracing your imperfections is sort of
(20:31):
part of letting the, the stress go.
So, and the point is, if you take care of your stress,
they're not going to see you sweat.
That was the point of the book. You know, he reminded me of a
book. It was a fiction book, but I
can't think of the title of it. It was something about a woman
who was a high achiever under pressure.
And there's a chapter in the book where the bake sales the
(20:55):
next day at school, and she realizes she's forgotten to bake
something. So she runs to like, the 711,
and she gets a pie. And then she goes home and she's
like banging the pie to make it look like it's home, right?
And it's flaking apart everywhere.
But she wants it, and she takes it out of the thing, but she
wants it to look like it was homemade, right?
And that was her moment when sherealized I have actually sung to
(21:19):
the point. Right.
Torturing myself that what difference does it make exactly?
Other mothers might not have baked it either, right?
It's a bake sale and what what kid at the school's going to
notice? Exactly, exactly.
So you have to give yourself permission.
Although there's a lot of research to the fact that you
know, mindfulness and being in the moment, cooking and baking
(21:40):
is actually a great way to be inthe moment and be mindful and
stuff. So.
Here you might chop off a fingernail and feed somebody a
little extra protein. Yeah, you got to be careful
about that too. So.
But yeah, no. So it's all part of it.
And the title was, you know, if science can help us harness
stress for success, then they never will let.
(22:01):
You sweat. So what's an example of how
science can help us? Well, I go through study after
study, so we talk about some stress relieving things.
So obviously people know exercise is a good way to
relieve stress. Then there's study after study
about green spaces, right? There's Swedish studies that
(22:22):
look at how much green space in an urban area should you have?
It's very important for people living in urban areas to relax.
In Japan, there's something called forest bathing, where you
just go out in nature and you sit down.
You don't have to exercise, you don't have to hike.
Although a lot of people that spend a lot of time in green
space are also doing exercise, but even without exercising,
(22:43):
just sitting in a park. And this Scandinavian study that
was talking about it, they did virtual green spaces to see how
people reacted, and they found that looking at sight sounds and
smell, that actually smells werethe strongest for stress
reduction, so. That's Even so funny because on
(23:05):
a as soon as in New York, when it rains and I can smell dirt,
not grime, not grime, but that scent of dirt, I can feel my
whole body relax. So I always try to find some,
even if I'm just walking past the garden that's, you know, all
of three by three where they planted the one tree on the
(23:27):
block. I just like to stand next to
that dirt. Right.
No, it's true. And because very, you know,
while our sense of smell is not evolved the way animals have,
it's still the more primal part of our CNS central nervous
system. And it's the amygdala, that area
in the central nervous system that that fires during fear and
(23:49):
notifies you of threats. So that's a very primal reaction
to it. So that was interesting.
Blue spaces is another one goingto the ocean.
I mean, who doesn't love the sound of the waves rolling in
and you can just feel yourself relaxing or sitting.
You know, people take vacations by water, lake, ocean, whatever.
(24:11):
So so those blue spaces are important.
And actually, you know, in the book, I also talk about the best
investment I ever made. When we finally renovated the
master bath and I got this greatsoaking tub and I would come
home from a terrible shift or something in another job that I
was working multiple jobs and I would just get in the tub and
(24:34):
relax. And I know some people are like,
oh you're soaking in your own filth, but then take a shower
1st and then get in the tub, right?
You know, I, I will always be grateful because my business was
like at full maniac speed when Iwas pregnant with both of our
children and I would come home when I was pregnant with our
first child. I would come home and I had, we
had this huge tub in our apartment and my husband would
(24:58):
have the candles lit around the tub and the tub would be at a
very warm temperature. He'd be like, the tub's ready.
Get in the tub. No.
It's so true. I love it.
I mean, I don't even need the candles.
I don't need the wine. I just get in and I sometimes I
put my head completely under thewater and I can just hear my
heart beating and you can just feel your stress go.
(25:21):
So those are ways, you know, also talking about, you know,
mindfulness, whether it's bakingor flower arranging, making
something beautiful that you like.
I love doing that, getting bouquets at home and then
rearranging them however I like.And you know, people talk about
(25:41):
art. Art therapy is very relaxing.
And there's a lot of studies that show that it's useful.
But people are like, well, I'm so not talented, I can't paint.
Guess what? There's coloring books for
adults just for that reason. All you have to do is color in
the lines or out of the lines, whatever you prefer.
So there's coloring books, there's adult Legos.
(26:02):
I've put together these little flower arrangements out of adult
Legos that were just fun to do. And while you're doing it, you
can just feel yourself relaxing.You're concentrating on
something else, you know. So there's, you know, all
through the book, there's a hostof different things that you can
do. And and then I do discuss.
I have to say so far all of those are very refreshing things
(26:25):
that I mean I literally own about 3000 bucks and I'd say
1000 of them are all health oriented in one way or another.
I have never read a book that addressed the things
collectively like you're put together, which is very
interesting. Thank you.
Legos weren't mentioned in that book.
You know all these things. Sponsor me a year.
(26:46):
Ago. That would be a good one.
Yeah, but in any event, no, all of those things.
And as I said, I poured over theresearch.
You know, what did the study sayabout it?
I didn't want this to just be, here's my experience.
This is what I say because I'm adoctor, because also I'm one of
those doctors that believes they're patient.
(27:07):
You know, I and I, I have to sayall my doctors.
That's very wonderful to hear. Yes.
That's that's an exceptionally high quality that I'm sure puts
you at the very top of your profession.
Well, you know. Because so many people don't
feel heard. Right.
No, it's. True, and I think so much of
healing in whatever it is that needs to be healed starts with
(27:31):
feeling heard. Oh I totally agree and that's
why in the book I say you reallywant to reduce your stress and
be heard. Get a woman doctor because study
after study shows women surgeonsless infectious complications
after surgery, less readmissionsto the hospital after their
discharge. Women tend to oh.
(27:52):
I got to give them. I just happened to have had a
lot of male doctors. The only two doctors that ever
fired me were women. Really.
Yeah, I'm surprised. One because they thought I
wasn't taking my moles seriouslyenough that I missed a six month
appointment and another when I was questioning because I gave
birth at 40 for the first time and she thought I was asking too
(28:15):
many questions. Whereas my male doctor, because
I have to say all the time in the world to talk about
whatever. So the science might be off, but
maybe I got lucky. Maybe you did because the
science is there that there are less complications, less
readmission rates, you think? That's wait a second, because
(28:36):
I'm a science person. I've I've worked with clinical
trials for 30 years. Do you think that's because
there's not enough data, currentdata for female doctors versus
male doctors? No, I really don't believe it
because some of them were meta analysis, as you know, where
they looked at all the Reese different research studies.
(28:58):
There's been studies that show women physicians follow clinical
guidelines more in fact, relatedto heart disease in women.
You know, for the longest time, as you know, I'm sure you know,
women themselves weren't taking their heart disease seriously
and doctors weren't either. There was this idea that oh,
estrogen is so protective, you know, woman coming in and then
(29:21):
they don't have the crushing chest pain.
And there had been several studies that a lot of women came
in, there were delayed diagnosiswith their heart disease and
that they were not, they were not put on this same protocols
as men. And there are studies that show
that women physicians and, and by the way, when I went to
(29:43):
medical schools, probably 30% ofthe class were women.
Now it's a little bit more than 50.
There's still that glass ceiling.
If you look at who's running thehealthcare systems, you look at
who's the head of academic offices, it's still only about
10% women. But it's more likely to put them
(30:04):
on the prescribed protocols, follow the guidelines and things
like that. So the research, I think bears
it out. And in my experience, I mean, I
usually end up going over in appointments and we're laughing
and talking and with the women doctors.
That, you know, a lot of the research part though, I mean,
(30:29):
I've probably been involved in what?
The studies are in the book. No, it's interesting the studies
you're referencing because I think a lot of doctors are
getting their information one way or another from
pharmaceutical companies. And most pharmaceutical
research, having done that for almost 30 years is based on men,
(30:49):
right? You know, very few.
I mean, you've got the nurses study, but other than that there
have been very few that are focused on women, which makes me
say so you know, drugs that are titrated, they're titrated
through the average 180 to £200 man, so.
Yeah, that, but yeah, that's so that's with drug discovery and
(31:11):
drug, but this is with outcome studies looking at men and women
physicians. And look, there's great male
doctors, right? I'm, I'm not saying that, but I
think, you know, in certain, in certain respects in my
experience, in certain research with outcome studies have borne
(31:32):
this out that that women tend tolisten.
I I've never heard of firing a patient just because they're,
they missed an appointment. Yeah, yeah, I don't know about
that, but that's not acceptable.And I'm sure there's bad apples
on both sides. I.
Was pretty shocked when I got the letter.
(31:54):
In fact, I said I should frame this and send it to some
newspaper. Yeah, no, that's, you know, and
actually, yeah, I don't even know how you do that.
There's all kinds of abandonmentissues and things that can be
charged. But anyway, but for the
majorities, a lot of the outcomestudies bear that in mind, so.
(32:15):
Very interesting. What science do you think is
misleading? Do you think there's any things
you've seen in recent years thatyou'd say to people?
Well, think twice about that. Or where are you getting your
science from? Or check multiple sources.
(32:38):
What do you? Yeah, well, and I and I do.
Because that's a big Internet. Thing.
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's the rise of the
Google doctor. Right, right, right.
Which I'm sure you've seen plenty of.
Which is a plus and a minus. Yeah.
I've also talked with people, you know, you have to make sure
that the sources are reputable. And even using AI, there are
mistakes. As we know, sometimes complete
(32:59):
made-up references are made-up. So, you know, I always tell
anyone if they're trying to use AI and they need to reference
something, you better look up the reference that AI has given
you because it might not. It might be a made-up, they talk
about phantom studies and phantom references.
But you know, I think in in general, I mean, I do tell, I
(33:26):
love patients to come in informed with a handful of
Google documents to discuss because those are people that
are invested in their health, right?
And they want to do that. But I also do know, you know,
medicine is not perfect, right? And that's the.
Practice of. Medicine, yes, yes.
It is not a perfect science and or, nor a hard science, right.
(33:51):
So the point of it is there are fads in medicine too.
And you know, a lot of things, alot of things are sometimes not
right. When I talk about menopause in
this, I talk about how you know,the history of it a little bit.
You know, in the 50s and 60s and, and when there were more
(34:12):
male doctors and women would complain of this.
I think historically there's a alot less listening with male
doctors, even historically, historically, right, You know,
mother's little helper, you know, giving them Valium and
then everyone was put on Premarin, right?
For. And then they started to do the
Women's Health study and then they interpret it this way.
(34:34):
And then everyone was talking taken off of hormones.
And so, you know, you have to make individual decisions and
you have to have a doctor that you trust that you can talk to,
that you can weigh the options with OK.
And medicines constantly evolving too.
So you have to sort of keep up with it.
So I think hormonal therapy in women, you know, first everyone
(34:57):
was on it, then it was maligned.Now this idea that, you know,
maybe you should be on it, maybeshort term I discussed that, you
discussed with your doctor. But then, you know, it depends.
If you have a very big family history with breast cancer and
other cancers, you have to do what you're comfortable with
too. Even though maybe the research
(35:17):
doesn't always bear everything out.
You have to feel that you're comfortable because if you're
constantly stressed and worried that you're going to get cancer,
you better be careful. Because maybe because we know
stress can contribute to immune dysfunction and that creates
problems with our body surveyingcancer cells, it can worsen
(35:39):
cancer diagnosis and response totherapy.
So it it's critical to sort of get your stress in control.
So you've got the mind, mind andbody connection.
Oh yeah. And what do you have to say
about that? To ever think that they were
separate was ridiculous. OK.
(35:59):
Good start, pretty much says it all.
Right I mean, it's, you know, and all these if you think about
all these funny sayings, go withyour gut Well, guess what, your
gut has more serotonin receptorsthan your brain, right.
So that's where it came with go with your gut, right.
So yeah, absolutely. And we're finding out now
(36:19):
there's just so much connection more.
I mean, we didn't understand thechemistry, the
psychopharmacology at one point,but now we're starting to
understand it more. So definitely mind body
connection. I mean, that's sort of what the
book is. You can, you know, I tell people
breathing exercises, right? You know, they talk about quick
(36:42):
way to reduce stress. Every watch now has an app for
mindfulness where or, you know, you take some time to breathe,
but that kind of box, breathing in for four seconds, hold it for
four seconds, out for four seconds, stop.
I mean, that can sort of rewire your brain.
So yes. You know, it's funny you
(37:02):
mentioned, you know, the watches.
Yeah, yeah. And I was having, I was with a
group of people this weekend forabout 3 days and we were having
different conversations and I found somebody's watch sitting
by a pool. And I'm like, what is this
thing? It's not like a normal watch.
And they were like, well, if I take my pulse, I track how my
sleeping is and and I'm like, whoa, that's a lot of
(37:25):
information. Do you really want it?
Well, you know, I get some days it really stresses me.
I'm like, do you really like this information?
So you had a bad night's sleep, you.
Know, you know, too much a little bit of knowledge can be a
dangerous no, I totally agree with that.
You know too, even as a perfectionist, I started to look
at my watch for sleeping right? And you know, I read all these
(37:48):
studies, OK, deep sleep should be 10% of your sleep and it
helps prevent dementia, you know, so every time, you know,
not to mention I hate to sleep with anything on me, but I
decided, okay, I'm going to sleep, set up the sleep and
sleep okay. If it's 9%, I'm like, Oh my God,
I'm going to be drooling in a corner.
And, you know, in two years I'm going to be have total dementia.
(38:12):
You know, I, I realized this wasstressing me out trying to
figure out like I had a bad night's sleep.
I didn't. So yeah, I'm not checking my
sleep that often in the. You know, it's so funny because
that's what I people were like, I can't believe you have all
people. I would have thought you would,
you know, be wearing this. You would be tracking this.
My brother, who I've done healthexperiments with for 30 years,
(38:33):
he's like, I can't believe you don't want to wear that.
I'm like, I lead. I have done extremes of
everything. I lead a moderate life at this.
Stage of life. And I if you to me, you have to
get to the point where you have to be comfortable with where
like what am I going to change at this point, right?
No, what am I going to change that?
(38:54):
You know, if I notice those differences, I can't really
think of anything that. Right.
And, and the whole thing is like, how do you make yourself
sleep deeper? I mean, you can't, right?
But I do have to say, after doing extensive research, when I
realized I was getting less than10 to 12% deep sleep, I found
out that, you know, nothing's perfect.
(39:14):
And a lot of times the watch misinterpret REM sleep.
To deep. Sleep or core sleep to deep
sleep? So that made me feel a little
better at the time. But yeah, no, I agree.
Once in a while it's interestingif you if you do it.
And I also noticed the nights that I got less sleep, I had the
higher percentage of deep sleep.The nights that I got more
(39:36):
sleep, I had a lower percentage.So I figured my body's got it
figured out. One of the things you seeing a
lot of and for years I've alwaysused a body fat scale versus a,
you know, a traditional scale. And you hear all these people
that I think are further stressing themselves in very odd
ways about longevity. You know that everyone's going
(39:59):
to live to forever now. You know, we're in a society
that no one's going to die. No one wants to acknowledge
death is part of life. I'm a big proponent of talking
more about death. I think it's important because
it helps you live. But what do you think about all
this new How we're all going to live forever and beat the Grim
Reaper? Well, I think that it, it really
(40:23):
depends on the population you'retalking about, because 75% of
America is either obese or overweight.
Those people are not going to live forever, but I do.
There's a big push for longevity.
Obviously lots of famous authorsand, and scientists and
physicians that sort of talk about it.
(40:46):
I think it's nice and aspirational, right?
I mean, I talk to patients when they're really sick and have
diabetes type 2 and all this. It's, it's like think about you,
you, you mortality isn't as important as morbidity.
Do you want to spend your years in doctor's offices?
So you have to think of getting your health for that, you know,
(41:09):
as opposed to doing it to try and live forever, you know, and.
That's an excellent point. Right.
So it isn't. Mortality and morbidity all in
one sentence. It's a really good perspective
to think about. Right, so you don't want
sickness. That's what you don't want,
right. And then you know, but I there I
find it fascinating these super agers, these blue zones, you
(41:33):
know, I read about it, you try and whatever.
I mean, I think for myself, I want to see my son settled,
married, kids happy, and then I'm OK.
I had him later in life. So, you know, I'm an older mom.
My mom had me very young. I remember at one point when I
finally got pregnant, she goes, it's good thing I had you at 19.
(41:55):
I've never met my grandson. Is she adored?
And yeah, so I feel bad. And also, you know, my family
history is, is not one of longevity or super agers, except
for my mother's father. He lived to 95, but everyone
else went pretty quickly. So for me, I just want to stay
(42:18):
healthy as long as I can see my kids settled and then I'll worry
about the rest. Since people always talk about
diet versus exercise, but let's add stress and relaxation into
it. If you were going to in your
medical pat on with as someone who's done a lot of research, if
(42:38):
you were going to say, what do you think is the most important?
Or how would you prioritize whatpeople are eating, how they're
exercising, and how they're managing their stress?
I would say stress #1 truthfully, not just because of
the book, but yeah, but stress. Stress also has us create bad
behaviors too. We eat when we're stressed out,
(43:00):
we drink alcohol when we're stressed out, we smoke.
Right? So stress I would put at the top
of it and managing that stress and and then, you know, going
from there with trying to eat healthy, you know, and I even
tell people, you know, go for the 8515 even, right?
(43:20):
I mean, like I said, you can't be perfect, right?
You know, I've seen so many women like they're doing great
and then they blow one day and then or they eat something that
they shouldn't have and then they're like, oh, I blew the
day. So then they eat 10 times more
things don't do that, right? You know, if you think 85% of
the time you're eating pretty healthy.
(43:41):
Of course, if you go to a great restaurant and they are known
for, I don't know, some fabulousdessert, why, why wouldn't you
try it? You know, so, so those kind of
things and diet, I would probably even put exercise a
little above diet, but truthfully, your diet is more
important for your weight control.
I mean, you, you'd have to exercise at the level of an
(44:03):
elite athlete to really, you know, get lean, but they sort of
go together. But I, I think stress is at the
top and kind of trying to manageyour stress because it's a
cascade effect. I mean, people that get type 2
diabetes, it's due to inflammation.
Stress causes inflammation, Theyget resistant to insulin.
And then, you know, it's just kind of down the hill from
(44:26):
there, heart disease and everything else.
You know, it's funny you mentioned your mother a lot.
My mother was one of those people we all thought was going
to outlive everyone because right until right up until she
died at 92 was basically runningcircles around everyone.
And you know, she was an early adapter or adopter of reading
(44:47):
the power of now and you know, always, you know, into but very
religious and but exercised, youknow, always moving, always
moving, always moving, ate well and ate ice cream every single
day. No right.
So when we would get together askids and say, well, it really
(45:08):
doesn't make any difference which he just make sure he has
some ice cream every day becausethat'll that'll prop.
That's probably why she was lessstressed.
That's probably why she could handle the five of us.
She had that ice cream. Right.
Yeah, No, I think that's great and I agree.
I mean, I had I talk in the booktoo at the time my she was sort
(45:29):
of like my son's adopted grandmother.
She lived till 98 to help take care of her.
At the very, very end, she had dementia and, and such, but, but
she, I think maybe it was her 95th birthday.
She had a friend come over that was like 98, just just this
(45:49):
beautiful little lady. She was in her Chanel suit and
she was still wearing heels. And I remember my husband, you
know, our step didn't have a rail when you came in the door
because I gave her a party at our house.
And he said, may I help you up? Oh, no, I'm fine.
She did it. And then they told me the story
When she finally died, her name was Lee, too.
And I thought, wow, that's a great way to go.
(46:10):
She was 98. She always looked great that
morning where she lived in assisted living, not a nursing
home. She went down, she had her hair
done. She met her girlfriends for
lunch at the place. She went back up to take a nap
and she never woke up. And that's.
The way to. Go the way to go, right with
your hair done looking good whenthey find you.
(46:31):
Exactly. Good hair day.
A good day all around. Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, no, it's, it's true. And and even Flo, my beloved
Flo, it wasn't really until the very end that she the dement,
she got dementia. So she did great on her own.
But I also talk about she was never married and never had
(46:54):
kids. That'll help your telomeres.
I once remember somebody saying to me, there was there's a
little research on either side. You know, telomeres are the end
caps for the DNA, right? And they keep you.
So one said you're having children lengthens your
telomeres and one said shortens them.
And I'm like, telomeres tell us smears.
(47:14):
I'm telling you having kids shortens your lifespan, whether
your telomeres look good or not.I mean, it really can get to
you. She never had a husband, never
had children so. Is there actually actually
scientific research that says? Well, you know what, There is
research that if you're in a badmarriage, it's very bad for you,
(47:35):
and if you're in a good marriage, it's good for you.
So there is research that looks at that, and especially for men,
too. So, yeah, so there's a little
bit of research to that. And it's all because of stress,
right? Yeah.
Marriage stress, yeah. Yeah, I I certainly think
marriage has its cycles. But you know, it's funny.
(47:57):
I had, like I said, I had our daughter at 40 and our son at
43. And the the doctor I ultimately
settled in on and it was like, wait a second, I can't believe
you had the first one naturally and you're having this one
naturally. I'm like, yeah.
And when I ended up doing all kinds of hormone testing after
(48:20):
at one point to do some different life insurance
policies, I was like, Oh my God,you've got this blood work like
a child. And there they said it.
A lot of it had to do with having children.
So I think there is an argument that, I don't know it's
scientifically, but actually that having children as
aggravating as hell as they can help me at certain times, yes,
(48:43):
could actually extend your life.Yeah, well, because.
You want to see them get married?
I want to see You want to. You want to see they have.
Children self to have children, right?
You want to see them have their own apartment so they can see
what you know those videos they have online where you're going
to spill the water and not cleanit up and you're.
Right, right. On the ground and.
(49:03):
Clean the refrigerator open. Yeah.
No, it's true. You want that chance to get back
at them. So no, I yeah, I do.
I, I think it's true. And actually, to use a medical
term of fecundity, meaning beingfertile and stuff, you actually,
if you had your kids at that age, I'm sure that you probably
(49:23):
did have a pretty, pretty interesting blood work to have
them naturally at that age. Yeah.
So that's pretty nice. Well, I wish we could keep
talking, but our time is up, unfortunately.
I have been talking with Doctor Lynn Venoker, Lee Venoker,
excuse me. And she is the author of a
(49:45):
really cool book that's just coming out called Never Let Them
See You Sweat. She's been an emergency room
physician. She's been you're in private
practice now, I gather as. Well, I'm a medical director of
Men's Health Clinic and. You know, so she has really seen
it all and knows all about thosereally stressful situations.
So she has shared, I mean, you really, you shared some really
(50:07):
amazing advice that you have in this book.
So I can't wait to go out and buy my next copy, and I'm sure
I'll be sharing it with lots of others.
Well thank you, I really appreciate it and this has been
fun too. Yeah.
You should go for coffee. Absolutely.
You are a wealth of knowledge. Really a pleasure.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
I'm Diane Gorsel, the Spin the Silver disobedience perception
(50:30):
Dynamics podcast. We are in the really cool
Manhattan Center here in New York City on West 34th St.
We're in right now, TV 2A. Lot of things have happened in
this place, so it's always fun to be here.
So big shout out to Manhattan Center.
Thank you very much for tuning in.
Please hit subscribe. You're going to find all kinds
of info about Doctor Van Oker below in the comments section
(50:55):
here, so please stay in touch with her.
Thanks a lot, everybody. Subscribe.
Hello, I have a question for you.
How hard is it to stay calm under pressure?
My answer would probably be sometimes very hard if I was
being honest and I think we could all say that.
And who better to tackle this topic stressed and calm under
(00:21):
pressure, then Doctor Lee Venoker, who is an emergency
room physician who highly regarded medical Doctor Who's
been in the emergency room for years.
So you can't even imagine the kind of stress.
I sure can't imagine the kind ofstress she's had to be under.
And now she has a new book out called Never Let Them See You
(00:42):
Sweat. So welcome, Doctor Venoker, I'm
so excited to have you here. Thank you, Diane.
I'm excited to be here. OK, so you have clearly, as an
emergency room physician, been under all kinds of stress, all
kinds of situations unimaginableto most of our even
imaginations. How'd you cope?
(01:05):
Translate that into never letting them see you sweat.
Well, actually a lot of medicineis a little bit like that, this
sort of stoicism that you have to be calm.
You might not be that way in theinside.
You might be screaming, sweatingon the inside, but you know, you
don't want to come into an ER indire straits and have your
(01:28):
emergency physician, you know, sweating.
But the other part of it is, youknow, how science can help us
manage stress and turn it into success.
So that that's the key part of this.
And it's sort of the lessons that I learned along the way
(01:48):
with some of the anecdotes that I had.
But what's backed by science on how to manage stress?
Because stress, not all stress is bad.
And stress does need to to be managed as a tool, especially
chronic stress, because it leadsto all kinds of medical
problems, so. Yeah.
So let's talk about training, since you mentioned training and
(02:11):
then the biology or the science of it, where what can we train
to overcome our biology to naturally like have that
adrenaline go from zero to 60 super fast and everything else
that happens scientifically, hormonally and biologically?
(02:32):
Right. So, you know, stress is more
than a feeling. You're right.
It's a biologic response, and it's actually an evolutionary
response that was developed to help us survive, right?
If you're being chased by a predator, you need all these
things to happen. It's the hypothalamic pituitary
adrenal access. So in the brain, the area, the
(02:55):
amygdala that detects fear. And then what happens is this
cascade of sympathetic response comes out.
So those things like your pupilsdilate, so you get more
peripheral vision. If you're running from a
predator, you start breathing faster, you get more blood and
oxygen to your muscles. Your digestive system shuts down
(03:19):
because you want to divert bloodthere.
So those are all great for acutestresses and really, you know,
but this chronic cortisol levels, catecholamines like
adrenaline, chronic level is what's creating harm.
And even today, you know, we can't tell the difference, you
(03:41):
know, emails that are, you know,filling our box with emergency
situations versus running from apredator.
So we haven't learned evolutionarily to distinguish
that difference. But in certain situations, if
you think about it, short burstsof that are good.
You know, I can tell you if you're an Olympic swimmer or
(04:02):
runner and you're in the blocks,you need that burst of
adrenaline to go. And truthfully, as an ER doctor,
when you're standing in the resuscitation room waiting for
the ambulance to come in with a multi vehicle trauma or whatever
and your whole team's there, youneed that burst of energy.
But then when it's all over, youneed to be able to let it go and
(04:24):
not make. How?
Do you do that? You mean you just gave me
goosebumps describing, you know,you know, there's been an
accident. You know, those people are
coming in. How do you channel that energy
that you've got to be feeling that stress?
Because if you could take that from an emergency room and know
(04:44):
how to transition it to a boardroom and you could help
people understand that. I mean, what an asset?
Well, that's entirely what the book is kind of about and what I
say in your personal life and a lot of times in the emergency
department or ER, right? You know, you have this trauma
code, then you're running to another code and another code,
and your level is up there for the entire shift, OK.
(05:08):
And it does take its toll. That's why I call emergency
medicine a young person's sport,right?
Because after a while it can take its toll.
But even when in the book, and Idescribe it, it too, that's
important for all individuals tothink about is to triage your
stress, right? So triage is a system in the ER
(05:30):
like, you know, it's not a firstcome, first serve.
Anyone that's been to the ER knows that, right?
But that's good because if you have a minor laceration and
someone's coming in with a heartattack, we want to take the most
severe person back. You don't want to stand in line
with the paper cut guys. So, so that's important and
triaging is, is the most important.
(05:51):
Unfortunately, a lot of us in the ER have seen like mass
casualties, right? And if you think about it,
whatever colors you use or whatever you decide, there are
some people that are seriously injured and no matter what you
do, nothing's going to help them.
Then there are some people that are have such minor injuries
that they're going to be fine nomatter what you do.
(06:13):
So what you need to do when you're say at a mass casualty is
determine and tag who are the people that are sick but will
survive or do better with intervention.
And I tell people that's what they need to do with their
stresses. The guy that cuts you off in the
highway, I mean, what are you going to do?
Chase him down the highway? And then in today's world, he's
going to, you know, smash into you have a gun.
(06:36):
I mean, there are certain stresses that you have every day
that aren't going to change yourlife.
And you have to learn that it's not worth it.
You know, I talk in this book and my hope in the book, it's
actually geared more towards women.
And I talk about my mom a lot inthe book with my experiences
because she wasn't a doctor at all, but when she was my best
(06:58):
stress reliever. But when I would stress about
something with her, she would say to me, really, Lee, is this
worth getting cancer or heart attack over?
Because that's what sustained stress does.
So she was already kind of teaching me, you need to triage
it. And that's what you need to say
to yourself. If it is something that you have
(07:18):
control of that is going to change your course in life or
something important, then you know, that's what you have to
tackle. But everything on either end,
you know, there are some things that might bother you a lot, but
there's nothing you can do, right?
You know, changes in in elections and things like that,
you know, there's nothing you can do.
So, so you have to, you know, find that lane where this is
(07:43):
going to affect your life. You have some control over it
and then decide on what to do. I probably recite the Serenity
Prayer 100 times a day. It's.
Exactly. It's exactly like that.
So that's key. And then in the book, I also
talk about, you know, different kind of methods to do it.
And there there are a whole bunch of different methods to do
(08:07):
it. But I think, you know, even
medicine, you know, we talk about this idea of, you know,
sort of never let him see you sweat and how you handle things
under pressure. But to really get that
resilience, you need a system tosupport you too.
And I think emergency medicine is, is changing that way.
I, I wrote an article for Fast Company because burnout is an
(08:31):
issue, right? In all forms of businesses,
burnout is an issue, but it's particularly stressful in
medicine today. So the key is, you know, you
need support from a system. And I think a lot of, as I said
when I talk about my mom attributing it to, she was
supportive. I mean, I didn't think now that
(08:53):
she's passed away that I would be able to carry on, but I
realized her support actually created that resilience in me.
And that's why it is important that systems need to examine
this too. You know, it isn't just this
stoicism where you think you're OK.
Because I do talk about in the book a lot, suicide is very high
(09:15):
among physicians as a group. And it's this idea, there's
issues with credentialing. There's this idea of admitting
this vulnerability. Is that going to affect your
hospital credentials? There is this underlying tone
that if you have any mental health issues, you maybe are not
(09:38):
fit to practice and and it's it's not fair.
Physicians are humans too, right?
They go through divorce, they gothrough grieving, they lose
spouses, they lose children and they should be not penalized in
their line of work. I mean, we advocate for the
mental health of our patients and it's a little ironic that we
can't advocate for our own mental health.
(10:00):
So I discussed that in the book and that's.
That's such an interesting point.
You mentioned something a littlebit ago, you said you primarily
wrote this for women. Why did you say that?
Because is there a difference inhow you think women or men are
perceiving? Stress.
I think men can perceive it, butI think women have truthfully
(10:24):
the biggest burden or load of stress because it isn't just
work, it's caregiving, it's home.
And it's this perception. When I would go out and talk,
you know, women would come up tome afterwards and they're like,
wow, how do you do it all? And I'm like, I don't do it all.
I am a neurotic perfectionist. I have all the same insecurities
(10:49):
that any other woman. And I, what happened is, and
I've changed, pivoted in my career, different specialties
and then done other things with medicine in both business and
startups and things like that. And I've, you know, because I
consider myself a lifelong learner and I love learning new
(11:11):
things. And I saw so many incredible
women that were stuck in situations, whether it was
extreme, like I've seen in the ER, domestic violence
situations, which can be deadly or very unhappy in, in marriages
or very unhappy in work. And they, they were afraid, they
were afraid of failure. They were stuck.
And I wanted to encourage them and say everybody is feeling
(11:35):
that way. You know, you, you have to just
allow yourself to do that. And I talk about some of the
epic fails and things I've had, I've had, you know, big failures
too. So I wanted, I wanted to give, I
felt like my mother gave me the confidence to feel whether I
(11:56):
could or not like I could do anything I put my mind to.
And a lot of times I tried and Icouldn't and I failed.
But other times I did and I succeeded.
And what I wanted to do with this book was provide that for
so many incredible women that I've learned met all along the
way, like yourself, for instance.
So that's why it's sort of geared towards women.
(12:18):
And I talk about a lot of thingsin the book situations with me,
you know, breastfeeding and things like that, that, you
know, even my husband reading and he goes, yeah, yeah, I could
see where this is a little geared more towards women.
But the overall lessons I think anybody can take from stress,
triaging your stress, things like that.
Biologically, do women and men respond differently?
(12:43):
Well, so despite the fight or flight response is essentially
the same and it does cause situations like in men that
constant stress can lead to low testosterone levels and all the
issues with that. In women, it can lead to
hormonal disruptions and, and both of them, it can lead
(13:04):
increased inflammation, can leadto diabetes, metabolic syndrome,
gaining weight, heart disease. So in those respects, it it's
similar physiologically, but I think women internalize things
differently, you know, and I hope people, I mean that not in
a sexist way. I think we do.
(13:27):
We we are people pleasers sometimes more often than not.
I mean, takes a longer time in your life as a woman to realize,
you know, you get to an age where you're like, oh, screw it,
you know, whatever. But I think, you know, early on
we do that and holding people together, you know, even family
(13:48):
health, if you look at statistics, who makes the health
decision in the family, it's usually the woman.
Men usually don't go to physicians until they're
pestered if they're married and or and what?
But I think the response and theinternalization of it is a
little different. So, and the fact that I really
attribute all of the things I'vedone to the love and support,
(14:12):
unconditional support that I gotfrom my mother.
And I wanted to be able to do that for other women.
I'm a big believer in women lifting up other women.
OK, Well then that gives me the perfect segue to say I'm sitting
across from you and I'm looking at a very beautiful woman who
looks like she's in really good shape and does not look stressed
(14:33):
at all. I mean, you do not look like
you're carrying any stress. You look like you take care of
yourself physically and it lookslike it's showing in your skin
and your eyes are vibrant so. It's an effort.
Well, it is an effort. And how do you, what would be
(14:54):
key things you would say to people that you apply to keep
yourself in this kind of physical state of being?
Well, you know, it's funny. I have a little chapter called
all about vanity to tell you thetruth.
(15:14):
And you know, I say that vain isnot a four letter word, you
know, And you know when when youtalk to women and you're telling
them that they need this becausetheir triglycerides are too high
or their cholesterol, it kind ofglosses over.
And I used to make a joke that Ididn't believe in any medication
unless it had a cosmetic result.But, you know, vanity is sort of
(15:39):
a little secret to keeping yourself healthy.
And it's the vanity side effect is that maybe you are exercising
more and your cholesterol levelsare going down.
So my feeling is, why not use something like that?
You know, I know it has these indications of frivolity.
And, you know, women are supposed to not think about
(16:01):
those things. But I always in that chapter
too, I say, look, you need to dofor yourself what makes you feel
good for you. Like, I don't do these things so
that somebody else would say, oh, you look attractive.
Oh, you look younger than your age.
You need to do it for yourself. OK.
(16:23):
So it's not an objectification truthfully, because you're
really doing it for yourself andthat and that's what I say and
it builds confidence. I mean, there is something, and
I talk about a study about a badhair day right when you feel
like your hair. Is what I'm feeling like I'm
having in this humidity? You know, it looks great, but I
(16:43):
get it. Humidity is not your friend, is
not our friend with hair, but it's true.
You know, you, when you think you look the best, you feel the
best, and that's part of it. So, so those are sort of the
motive, motivating factors that I try and give to women too,
that, you know, don't do it for somebody else.
(17:03):
Don't try and look like a celebrity, you know, and don't
do it for social media, which I think makes everybody feel bad
now because nobody's going to put themselves on social media
when they're looking like crap, right?
You know, so and yeah, I did blow my hair for you today, so.
But a lot of days I don't. And when I came into the city, I
(17:27):
was wearing a baseball cap. So But yeah, it's doing doing
these things for you is a big part of it.
And I do talk a little bit aboutvanity and exercising, but all
those things also can help reduce stress too.
You know, exercise is excellent for reducing stress and that's
part of it, you know, you know, I swim sometimes and when I'm in
(17:52):
the water and I'm just listeningto my breathing as I'm going
back and forth, you can feel yourself relax.
So, so there's a list of different things that you can
do. But I, I really want to give
women permission and some grace to give themselves a little
space, right? Don't don't be so tough on
(18:13):
yourself all the time right, right.
That's the problem, you know, iswe feel like everything has to
be perfect and I so. How would you choose this title
then? Never let them see you sweat.
Is this a tongue in cheek title?Yeah, it's sort of like, you
know, how I functioned in the ER, but it's it's a point to say
(18:35):
you can use science to reduce your stress, but you need to.
I talk about all the ridiculous funny.
You know, it's very a lot of my experiences are, you know, I
make fun of myself a lot and andI don't take myself too
seriously and and I use those asexamples to show people and
(19:02):
women that you can give yourselfsome space and grace.
Things don't always work out perfectly, but to keep trying,
right? But to keep trying but and I I
talk about. Stories as my theory, right?
Right as you're proving, you're writing about them in your book.
Right, exactly. I mean, I, I do recall one time
(19:23):
and there's this incident in thebook and I know perfectionism
is, is a problem with me, problem with women.
You know, my son had this project when he was, I don't
know, maybe 10. And he was building this paper
mache model of Mont say Michellein France.
And it was on the thing and it, you know, it's on an island and
it actually looked pretty good. But then the, around the board,
(19:48):
it was there. He painted just a little bit of
blue because it was in the ocean.
And I was like, well, don't you want the whole rest of the board
to be blue? And he's like, no.
I said, Are you sure? I said because it would be
perfect if the whole blue and he, you know, at the age of 10,
he was smarter than me. He said, you know, mom, not
(20:10):
everything's perfect in life. And it was driving me crazy that
I actually painted it. When he went to sleep, he was so
mad. He did not talk to me.
Like I could not let it go. So the point is, you know, I, I
am very imperfect and embracing your imperfections is sort of
(20:31):
part of letting the, the stress go.
So, and the point is, if you take care of your stress,
they're not going to see you sweat.
That was the point of the book. You know, he reminded me of a
book. It was a fiction book, but I
can't think of the title of it. It was something about a woman
who was a high achiever under pressure.
And there's a chapter in the book where the bake sales the
(20:55):
next day at school, and she realizes she's forgotten to bake
something. So she runs to like, the 711,
and she gets a pie. And then she goes home and she's
like banging the pie to make it look like it's home, right?
And it's flaking apart everywhere.
But she wants it, and she takes it out of the thing, but she
wants it to look like it was homemade, right?
And that was her moment when sherealized I have actually sung to
(21:19):
the point. Right.
Torturing myself that what difference does it make exactly?
Other mothers might not have baked it either, right?
It's a bake sale and what what kid at the school's going to
notice? Exactly, exactly.
So you have to give yourself permission.
Although there's a lot of research to the fact that you
know, mindfulness and being in the moment, cooking and baking
(21:40):
is actually a great way to be inthe moment and be mindful and
stuff. So.
Here you might chop off a fingernail and feed somebody a
little extra protein. Yeah, you got to be careful
about that too. So.
But yeah, no. So it's all part of it.
And the title was, you know, if science can help us harness
stress for success, then they never will let.
(22:01):
You sweat. So what's an example of how
science can help us? Well, I go through study after
study, so we talk about some stress relieving things.
So obviously people know exercise is a good way to
relieve stress. Then there's study after study
about green spaces, right? There's Swedish studies that
(22:22):
look at how much green space in an urban area should you have?
It's very important for people living in urban areas to relax.
In Japan, there's something called forest bathing, where you
just go out in nature and you sit down.
You don't have to exercise, you don't have to hike.
Although a lot of people that spend a lot of time in green
space are also doing exercise, but even without exercising,
(22:43):
just sitting in a park. And this Scandinavian study that
was talking about it, they did virtual green spaces to see how
people reacted, and they found that looking at sight sounds and
smell, that actually smells werethe strongest for stress
reduction, so. That's Even so funny because on
(23:05):
a as soon as in New York, when it rains and I can smell dirt,
not grime, not grime, but that scent of dirt, I can feel my
whole body relax. So I always try to find some,
even if I'm just walking past the garden that's, you know, all
of three by three where they planted the one tree on the
(23:27):
block. I just like to stand next to
that dirt. Right.
No, it's true. And because very, you know,
while our sense of smell is not evolved the way animals have,
it's still the more primal part of our CNS central nervous
system. And it's the amygdala, that area
in the central nervous system that that fires during fear and
(23:49):
notifies you of threats. So that's a very primal reaction
to it. So that was interesting.
Blue spaces is another one goingto the ocean.
I mean, who doesn't love the sound of the waves rolling in
and you can just feel yourself relaxing or sitting.
You know, people take vacations by water, lake, ocean, whatever.
(24:11):
So so those blue spaces are important.
And actually, you know, in the book, I also talk about the best
investment I ever made. When we finally renovated the
master bath and I got this greatsoaking tub and I would come
home from a terrible shift or something in another job that I
was working multiple jobs and I would just get in the tub and
(24:34):
relax. And I know some people are like,
oh you're soaking in your own filth, but then take a shower
1st and then get in the tub, right?
You know, I, I will always be grateful because my business was
like at full maniac speed when Iwas pregnant with both of our
children and I would come home when I was pregnant with our
first child. I would come home and I had, we
had this huge tub in our apartment and my husband would
(24:58):
have the candles lit around the tub and the tub would be at a
very warm temperature. He'd be like, the tub's ready.
Get in the tub. No.
It's so true. I love it.
I mean, I don't even need the candles.
I don't need the wine. I just get in and I sometimes I
put my head completely under thewater and I can just hear my
heart beating and you can just feel your stress go.
(25:21):
So those are ways, you know, also talking about, you know,
mindfulness, whether it's bakingor flower arranging, making
something beautiful that you like.
I love doing that, getting bouquets at home and then
rearranging them however I like.And you know, people talk about
(25:41):
art. Art therapy is very relaxing.
And there's a lot of studies that show that it's useful.
But people are like, well, I'm so not talented, I can't paint.
Guess what? There's coloring books for
adults just for that reason. All you have to do is color in
the lines or out of the lines, whatever you prefer.
So there's coloring books, there's adult Legos.
(26:02):
I've put together these little flower arrangements out of adult
Legos that were just fun to do. And while you're doing it, you
can just feel yourself relaxing.You're concentrating on
something else, you know. So there's, you know, all
through the book, there's a hostof different things that you can
do. And and then I do discuss.
I have to say so far all of those are very refreshing things
(26:25):
that I mean I literally own about 3000 bucks and I'd say
1000 of them are all health oriented in one way or another.
I have never read a book that addressed the things
collectively like you're put together, which is very
interesting. Thank you.
Legos weren't mentioned in that book.
You know all these things. Sponsor me a year.
(26:46):
Ago. That would be a good one.
Yeah, but in any event, no, all of those things.
And as I said, I poured over theresearch.
You know, what did the study sayabout it?
I didn't want this to just be, here's my experience.
This is what I say because I'm adoctor, because also I'm one of
those doctors that believes they're patient.
(27:07):
You know, I and I, I have to sayall my doctors.
That's very wonderful to hear. Yes.
That's that's an exceptionally high quality that I'm sure puts
you at the very top of your profession.
Well, you know. Because so many people don't
feel heard. Right.
No, it's. True, and I think so much of
healing in whatever it is that needs to be healed starts with
(27:31):
feeling heard. Oh I totally agree and that's
why in the book I say you reallywant to reduce your stress and
be heard. Get a woman doctor because study
after study shows women surgeonsless infectious complications
after surgery, less readmissionsto the hospital after their
discharge. Women tend to oh.
(27:52):
I got to give them. I just happened to have had a
lot of male doctors. The only two doctors that ever
fired me were women. Really.
Yeah, I'm surprised. One because they thought I
wasn't taking my moles seriouslyenough that I missed a six month
appointment and another when I was questioning because I gave
birth at 40 for the first time and she thought I was asking too
(28:15):
many questions. Whereas my male doctor, because
I have to say all the time in the world to talk about
whatever. So the science might be off, but
maybe I got lucky. Maybe you did because the
science is there that there are less complications, less
readmission rates, you think? That's wait a second, because
(28:36):
I'm a science person. I've I've worked with clinical
trials for 30 years. Do you think that's because
there's not enough data, currentdata for female doctors versus
male doctors? No, I really don't believe it
because some of them were meta analysis, as you know, where
they looked at all the Reese different research studies.
(28:58):
There's been studies that show women physicians follow clinical
guidelines more in fact, relatedto heart disease in women.
You know, for the longest time, as you know, I'm sure you know,
women themselves weren't taking their heart disease seriously
and doctors weren't either. There was this idea that oh,
estrogen is so protective, you know, woman coming in and then
(29:21):
they don't have the crushing chest pain.
And there had been several studies that a lot of women came
in, there were delayed diagnosiswith their heart disease and
that they were not, they were not put on this same protocols
as men. And there are studies that show
that women physicians and, and by the way, when I went to
(29:43):
medical schools, probably 30% ofthe class were women.
Now it's a little bit more than 50.
There's still that glass ceiling.
If you look at who's running thehealthcare systems, you look at
who's the head of academic offices, it's still only about
10% women. But it's more likely to put them
(30:04):
on the prescribed protocols, follow the guidelines and things
like that. So the research, I think bears
it out. And in my experience, I mean, I
usually end up going over in appointments and we're laughing
and talking and with the women doctors.
That, you know, a lot of the research part though, I mean,
(30:29):
I've probably been involved in what?
The studies are in the book. No, it's interesting the studies
you're referencing because I think a lot of doctors are
getting their information one way or another from
pharmaceutical companies. And most pharmaceutical
research, having done that for almost 30 years is based on men,
(30:49):
right? You know, very few.
I mean, you've got the nurses study, but other than that there
have been very few that are focused on women, which makes me
say so you know, drugs that are titrated, they're titrated
through the average 180 to £200 man, so.
Yeah, that, but yeah, that's so that's with drug discovery and
(31:11):
drug, but this is with outcome studies looking at men and women
physicians. And look, there's great male
doctors, right? I'm, I'm not saying that, but I
think, you know, in certain, in certain respects in my
experience, in certain research with outcome studies have borne
(31:32):
this out that that women tend tolisten.
I I've never heard of firing a patient just because they're,
they missed an appointment. Yeah, yeah, I don't know about
that, but that's not acceptable.And I'm sure there's bad apples
on both sides. I.
Was pretty shocked when I got the letter.
(31:54):
In fact, I said I should frame this and send it to some
newspaper. Yeah, no, that's, you know, and
actually, yeah, I don't even know how you do that.
There's all kinds of abandonmentissues and things that can be
charged. But anyway, but for the
majorities, a lot of the outcomestudies bear that in mind, so.
(32:15):
Very interesting. What science do you think is
misleading? Do you think there's any things
you've seen in recent years thatyou'd say to people?
Well, think twice about that. Or where are you getting your
science from? Or check multiple sources.
(32:38):
What do you? Yeah, well, and I and I do.
Because that's a big Internet. Thing.
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's the rise of the
Google doctor. Right, right, right.
Which I'm sure you've seen plenty of.
Which is a plus and a minus. Yeah.
I've also talked with people, you know, you have to make sure
that the sources are reputable. And even using AI, there are
mistakes. As we know, sometimes complete
(32:59):
made-up references are made-up. So, you know, I always tell
anyone if they're trying to use AI and they need to reference
something, you better look up the reference that AI has given
you because it might not. It might be a made-up, they talk
about phantom studies and phantom references.
But you know, I think in in general, I mean, I do tell, I
(33:26):
love patients to come in informed with a handful of
Google documents to discuss because those are people that
are invested in their health, right?
And they want to do that. But I also do know, you know,
medicine is not perfect, right? And that's the.
Practice of. Medicine, yes, yes.
It is not a perfect science and or, nor a hard science, right.
(33:51):
So the point of it is there are fads in medicine too.
And you know, a lot of things, alot of things are sometimes not
right. When I talk about menopause in
this, I talk about how you know,the history of it a little bit.
You know, in the 50s and 60s and, and when there were more
(34:12):
male doctors and women would complain of this.
I think historically there's a alot less listening with male
doctors, even historically, historically, right, You know,
mother's little helper, you know, giving them Valium and
then everyone was put on Premarin, right?
For. And then they started to do the
Women's Health study and then they interpret it this way.
(34:34):
And then everyone was talking taken off of hormones.
And so, you know, you have to make individual decisions and
you have to have a doctor that you trust that you can talk to,
that you can weigh the options with OK.
And medicines constantly evolving too.
So you have to sort of keep up with it.
So I think hormonal therapy in women, you know, first everyone
(34:57):
was on it, then it was maligned.Now this idea that, you know,
maybe you should be on it, maybeshort term I discussed that, you
discussed with your doctor. But then, you know, it depends.
If you have a very big family history with breast cancer and
other cancers, you have to do what you're comfortable with
too. Even though maybe the research
(35:17):
doesn't always bear everything out.
You have to feel that you're comfortable because if you're
constantly stressed and worried that you're going to get cancer,
you better be careful. Because maybe because we know
stress can contribute to immune dysfunction and that creates
problems with our body surveyingcancer cells, it can worsen
(35:39):
cancer diagnosis and response totherapy.
So it it's critical to sort of get your stress in control.
So you've got the mind, mind andbody connection.
Oh yeah. And what do you have to say
about that? To ever think that they were
separate was ridiculous. OK.
(35:59):
Good start, pretty much says it all.
Right I mean, it's, you know, and all these if you think about
all these funny sayings, go withyour gut Well, guess what, your
gut has more serotonin receptorsthan your brain, right.
So that's where it came with go with your gut, right.
So yeah, absolutely. And we're finding out now
(36:19):
there's just so much connection more.
I mean, we didn't understand thechemistry, the
psychopharmacology at one point,but now we're starting to
understand it more. So definitely mind body
connection. I mean, that's sort of what the
book is. You can, you know, I tell people
breathing exercises, right? You know, they talk about quick
(36:42):
way to reduce stress. Every watch now has an app for
mindfulness where or, you know, you take some time to breathe,
but that kind of box, breathing in for four seconds, hold it for
four seconds, out for four seconds, stop.
I mean, that can sort of rewire your brain.
So yes. You know, it's funny you
(37:02):
mentioned, you know, the watches.
Yeah, yeah. And I was having, I was with a
group of people this weekend forabout 3 days and we were having
different conversations and I found somebody's watch sitting
by a pool. And I'm like, what is this
thing? It's not like a normal watch.
And they were like, well, if I take my pulse, I track how my
sleeping is and and I'm like, whoa, that's a lot of
(37:25):
information. Do you really want it?
Well, you know, I get some days it really stresses me.
I'm like, do you really like this information?
So you had a bad night's sleep, you.
Know, you know, too much a little bit of knowledge can be a
dangerous no, I totally agree with that.
You know too, even as a perfectionist, I started to look
at my watch for sleeping right? And you know, I read all these
(37:48):
studies, OK, deep sleep should be 10% of your sleep and it
helps prevent dementia, you know, so every time, you know,
not to mention I hate to sleep with anything on me, but I
decided, okay, I'm going to sleep, set up the sleep and
sleep okay. If it's 9%, I'm like, Oh my God,
I'm going to be drooling in a corner.
And, you know, in two years I'm going to be have total dementia.
(38:12):
You know, I, I realized this wasstressing me out trying to
figure out like I had a bad night's sleep.
I didn't. So yeah, I'm not checking my
sleep that often in the. You know, it's so funny because
that's what I people were like, I can't believe you have all
people. I would have thought you would,
you know, be wearing this. You would be tracking this.
My brother, who I've done healthexperiments with for 30 years,
(38:33):
he's like, I can't believe you don't want to wear that.
I'm like, I lead. I have done extremes of
everything. I lead a moderate life at this.
Stage of life. And I if you to me, you have to
get to the point where you have to be comfortable with where
like what am I going to change at this point, right?
No, what am I going to change that?
(38:54):
You know, if I notice those differences, I can't really
think of anything that. Right.
And, and the whole thing is like, how do you make yourself
sleep deeper? I mean, you can't, right?
But I do have to say, after doing extensive research, when I
realized I was getting less than10 to 12% deep sleep, I found
out that, you know, nothing's perfect.
(39:14):
And a lot of times the watch misinterpret REM sleep.
To deep. Sleep or core sleep to deep
sleep? So that made me feel a little
better at the time. But yeah, no, I agree.
Once in a while it's interestingif you if you do it.
And I also noticed the nights that I got less sleep, I had the
higher percentage of deep sleep.The nights that I got more
(39:36):
sleep, I had a lower percentage.So I figured my body's got it
figured out. One of the things you seeing a
lot of and for years I've alwaysused a body fat scale versus a,
you know, a traditional scale. And you hear all these people
that I think are further stressing themselves in very odd
ways about longevity. You know that everyone's going
(39:59):
to live to forever now. You know, we're in a society
that no one's going to die. No one wants to acknowledge
death is part of life. I'm a big proponent of talking
more about death. I think it's important because
it helps you live. But what do you think about all
this new How we're all going to live forever and beat the Grim
Reaper? Well, I think that it, it really
(40:23):
depends on the population you'retalking about, because 75% of
America is either obese or overweight.
Those people are not going to live forever, but I do.
There's a big push for longevity.
Obviously lots of famous authorsand, and scientists and
physicians that sort of talk about it.
(40:46):
I think it's nice and aspirational, right?
I mean, I talk to patients when they're really sick and have
diabetes type 2 and all this. It's, it's like think about you,
you, you mortality isn't as important as morbidity.
Do you want to spend your years in doctor's offices?
So you have to think of getting your health for that, you know,
(41:09):
as opposed to doing it to try and live forever, you know, and.
That's an excellent point. Right.
So it isn't. Mortality and morbidity all in
one sentence. It's a really good perspective
to think about. Right, so you don't want
sickness. That's what you don't want,
right. And then you know, but I there I
find it fascinating these super agers, these blue zones, you
(41:33):
know, I read about it, you try and whatever.
I mean, I think for myself, I want to see my son settled,
married, kids happy, and then I'm OK.
I had him later in life. So, you know, I'm an older mom.
My mom had me very young. I remember at one point when I
finally got pregnant, she goes, it's good thing I had you at 19.
(41:55):
I've never met my grandson. Is she adored?
And yeah, so I feel bad. And also, you know, my family
history is, is not one of longevity or super agers, except
for my mother's father. He lived to 95, but everyone
else went pretty quickly. So for me, I just want to stay
(42:18):
healthy as long as I can see my kids settled and then I'll worry
about the rest. Since people always talk about
diet versus exercise, but let's add stress and relaxation into
it. If you were going to in your
medical pat on with as someone who's done a lot of research, if
(42:38):
you were going to say, what do you think is the most important?
Or how would you prioritize whatpeople are eating, how they're
exercising, and how they're managing their stress?
I would say stress #1 truthfully, not just because of
the book, but yeah, but stress. Stress also has us create bad
behaviors too. We eat when we're stressed out,
(43:00):
we drink alcohol when we're stressed out, we smoke.
Right? So stress I would put at the top
of it and managing that stress and and then, you know, going
from there with trying to eat healthy, you know, and I even
tell people, you know, go for the 8515 even, right?
(43:20):
I mean, like I said, you can't be perfect, right?
You know, I've seen so many women like they're doing great
and then they blow one day and then or they eat something that
they shouldn't have and then they're like, oh, I blew the
day. So then they eat 10 times more
things don't do that, right? You know, if you think 85% of
the time you're eating pretty healthy.
(43:41):
Of course, if you go to a great restaurant and they are known
for, I don't know, some fabulousdessert, why, why wouldn't you
try it? You know, so, so those kind of
things and diet, I would probably even put exercise a
little above diet, but truthfully, your diet is more
important for your weight control.
I mean, you, you'd have to exercise at the level of an
(44:03):
elite athlete to really, you know, get lean, but they sort of
go together. But I, I think stress is at the
top and kind of trying to manageyour stress because it's a
cascade effect. I mean, people that get type 2
diabetes, it's due to inflammation.
Stress causes inflammation, Theyget resistant to insulin.
And then, you know, it's just kind of down the hill from
(44:26):
there, heart disease and everything else.
You know, it's funny you mentioned your mother a lot.
My mother was one of those people we all thought was going
to outlive everyone because right until right up until she
died at 92 was basically runningcircles around everyone.
And you know, she was an early adapter or adopter of reading
(44:47):
the power of now and you know, always, you know, into but very
religious and but exercised, youknow, always moving, always
moving, always moving, ate well and ate ice cream every single
day. No right.
So when we would get together askids and say, well, it really
(45:08):
doesn't make any difference which he just make sure he has
some ice cream every day becausethat'll that'll prop.
That's probably why she was lessstressed.
That's probably why she could handle the five of us.
She had that ice cream. Right.
Yeah, No, I think that's great and I agree.
I mean, I had I talk in the booktoo at the time my she was sort
(45:29):
of like my son's adopted grandmother.
She lived till 98 to help take care of her.
At the very, very end, she had dementia and, and such, but, but
she, I think maybe it was her 95th birthday.
She had a friend come over that was like 98, just just this
(45:49):
beautiful little lady. She was in her Chanel suit and
she was still wearing heels. And I remember my husband, you
know, our step didn't have a rail when you came in the door
because I gave her a party at our house.
And he said, may I help you up? Oh, no, I'm fine.
She did it. And then they told me the story
When she finally died, her name was Lee, too.
And I thought, wow, that's a great way to go.
(46:10):
She was 98. She always looked great that
morning where she lived in assisted living, not a nursing
home. She went down, she had her hair
done. She met her girlfriends for
lunch at the place. She went back up to take a nap
and she never woke up. And that's.
The way to. Go the way to go, right with
your hair done looking good whenthey find you.
(46:31):
Exactly. Good hair day.
A good day all around. Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, no, it's, it's true. And and even Flo, my beloved
Flo, it wasn't really until the very end that she the dement,
she got dementia. So she did great on her own.
But I also talk about she was never married and never had
(46:54):
kids. That'll help your telomeres.
I once remember somebody saying to me, there was there's a
little research on either side. You know, telomeres are the end
caps for the DNA, right? And they keep you.
So one said you're having children lengthens your
telomeres and one said shortens them.
And I'm like, telomeres tell us smears.
(47:14):
I'm telling you having kids shortens your lifespan, whether
your telomeres look good or not.I mean, it really can get to
you. She never had a husband, never
had children so. Is there actually actually
scientific research that says? Well, you know what, There is
research that if you're in a badmarriage, it's very bad for you,
(47:35):
and if you're in a good marriage, it's good for you.
So there is research that looks at that, and especially for men,
too. So, yeah, so there's a little
bit of research to that. And it's all because of stress,
right? Yeah.
Marriage stress, yeah. Yeah, I I certainly think
marriage has its cycles. But you know, it's funny.
(47:57):
I had, like I said, I had our daughter at 40 and our son at
43. And the the doctor I ultimately
settled in on and it was like, wait a second, I can't believe
you had the first one naturally and you're having this one
naturally. I'm like, yeah.
And when I ended up doing all kinds of hormone testing after
(48:20):
at one point to do some different life insurance
policies, I was like, Oh my God,you've got this blood work like
a child. And there they said it.
A lot of it had to do with having children.
So I think there is an argument that, I don't know it's
scientifically, but actually that having children as
aggravating as hell as they can help me at certain times, yes,
(48:43):
could actually extend your life.Yeah, well, because.
You want to see them get married?
I want to see You want to. You want to see they have.
Children self to have children, right?
You want to see them have their own apartment so they can see
what you know those videos they have online where you're going
to spill the water and not cleanit up and you're.
Right, right. On the ground and.
(49:03):
Clean the refrigerator open. Yeah.
No, it's true. You want that chance to get back
at them. So no, I yeah, I do.
I, I think it's true. And actually, to use a medical
term of fecundity, meaning beingfertile and stuff, you actually,
if you had your kids at that age, I'm sure that you probably
(49:23):
did have a pretty, pretty interesting blood work to have
them naturally at that age. Yeah.
So that's pretty nice. Well, I wish we could keep
talking, but our time is up, unfortunately.
I have been talking with Doctor Lynn Venoker, Lee Venoker,
excuse me. And she is the author of a
(49:45):
really cool book that's just coming out called Never Let Them
See You Sweat. She's been an emergency room
physician. She's been you're in private
practice now, I gather as. Well, I'm a medical director of
Men's Health Clinic and. You know, so she has really seen
it all and knows all about thosereally stressful situations.
So she has shared, I mean, you really, you shared some really
(50:07):
amazing advice that you have in this book.
So I can't wait to go out and buy my next copy, and I'm sure
I'll be sharing it with lots of others.
Well thank you, I really appreciate it and this has been
fun too. Yeah.
You should go for coffee. Absolutely.
You are a wealth of knowledge. Really a pleasure.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
I'm Diane Gorsel, the Spin the Silver disobedience perception
(50:30):
Dynamics podcast. We are in the really cool
Manhattan Center here in New York City on West 34th St.
We're in right now, TV 2A. Lot of things have happened in
this place, so it's always fun to be here.
So big shout out to Manhattan Center.
Thank you very much for tuning in.
Please hit subscribe. You're going to find all kinds
of info about Doctor Van Oker below in the comments section
(50:55):
here, so please stay in touch with her.
Thanks a lot, everybody. Subscribe.
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