October 25, 2023 • 41 mins
"It's the work of all of us to make sure people are informed."
During the Cold War, Canadians became targets of a widespread, systemic effort to identify and expel all any queer people working in the military or public service. This included today's guest, Martine Roy.
Martine was a young woman from Montréal who, looking for a purpose-driven career, joined the Armed Forces. Her world was shattered when one day, she was arrested out of the blue, and subjected to rounds of humiliating interrogation on the subject of her intimate life and sexuality. Eventually, she was dishonourably discharged for being in a relationship with another woman.
This so-called "homosexual witch hunt" lasted for over three decades, and the stories of those persecuted during this time are shared in Sarah Fodey's 2018 documentary, The Fruit Machine.
In this episode, we hear from Martine what it was like to live through this traumatizing experience, but also how she's found new purpose in her life and what steps have been taken to secure justice for the hundreds of people affected by the Purge.
Watch The Fruit Machine (2018) on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dLEn0h4hJI
TD Connected Community Moment
So, what did you think about The Fruit Machine? Did you know about Canada's LGBT Purge? Send us a message on our SpeakPipe, and you may be featured in our next episode! To leave us a message on SpeakPipe, follow this link: https://www.speakpipe.com/TransCanadaStories
For more information on Simply Good Form, follow this link: https://www.simplygoodform.com/
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Creators & Guests
- SGF Inclusion - Producer
- Connor Sampson - Producer
- Cyn Sweeney - Host
- Emma Stanley - Host
- Martine Roy - Guest
- Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/SimplyGoodForm/)
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/simply-good-form/
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- Trans Canada Stories is proudly partnered with TD Bank Group.
Check out the gender affirming children's story, based on a true story, 'The Pink Balloon'. Available on Amazon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cyn Sweeney (00:07):
Welcome to TransCanada Stories. I'm Cynthia
Sweeney, and I use sheherpronouns.
Emma Stanley (00:12):
I'm Emma Stanley. I use sheher pronouns. In this
podcast, we go beyond the binarycoast to coast, telling the
stories of trans people aspeople. In 2018, filmmaker Sarah
Foti made a documentaryfeaturing survivors of a decades
long homosexual witch hunt inCanada. The film recounts
personal stories of dedicationand betrayal at the hands of the
(00:35):
Canadian government.
Former public servants weretargeted in what is called the
Purge. And in the documentary,The Fruit Machine, they came
together united to seek justice,reconciliation, and
memorialization. On September19, two survivors joined a
screening of the film at theHalifax Central Library,
followed by a fireside chat. Theevent was sponsored by TD Bank
(00:56):
Group. Today, we are humbled tobe joined by Martine Roy, one of
those survivors, to talk to usabout her experience being
targeted within the Purge.
So Martine is now here with usin the studio. Martine, I'm so
happy to have you on the show.
Martine Roy (01:12):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be
here and very humble about it.
Cyn Sweeney (01:15):
And I'm recording from my bedroom today because I
have COVID.
Emma Stanley (01:21):
The Purge is a difficult topic to talk about,
and I can only imagine howdifficult it was to actually be
involved in it. So I met youthrough this documentary called
The Fruit Machine. Now The FruitMachine is about a series of
events that took place fromstarting in the 1940s with Cold
(01:45):
War paranoia leading up to, Ithink, 2017 when there was a
formal apology from PrimeMinister Justin Trudeau about
what happened. Can you tell mewhat happened from your
perspective?
Martine Roy (01:59):
Okay. So me, I'm really a girl from Montreal,
Born, raised in Montreal. Myfather was a cinematographer
from National Film Board. I hadtwo sisters, very artsy family.
And I didn't know what I wantedto do.
Everybody was really like a lotof talent and I didn't have a
talent. So my father workedreally hard to try to convince
(02:23):
me to do something with myselfso I joined the Army Forces to
become a medical adjoint,medical assistant. And I didn't
really wanna go. I didn't knowwhat I was getting on board
with. I was like 19 years old.
I was seeing a woman inMontreal, even the one that
started first pride parade inMontreal. I was was with her.
(02:45):
And so I joined the army and atthe two first week I was like
resisting resisting calling mymother asking her to get me out
of there. And she was saying noI cannot do anything so I really
join in. And I put my 150%.
I cannot tell you that I knewthat we cannot be as homosexual
(03:07):
or not. I didn't grasp that. SoI did my training. It was
amazing, good training and Igraduated and all that and then
I met a man and I fell for himand I started going out with
him. I didn't question myself,no I was seeing a woman before
now a man or I'm 19 years oldwhat was the most important was
(03:29):
to succeed because it was heavytraining and to make it.
So finally I'm transferred toBorden. He has transferred as
well to Borden and while we'reboth training at one point I
meet a woman at the hospital andwe start talking and everything
and one of the things she tellsme is let's keep our boyfriend
(03:51):
or because we're not allowed.And that's the first time I
grasped that hope and we're notallowed. And I don't even have
time that I turned around, I getarrested. It's almost like they
ran my mind.
(04:12):
So I get arrested in the fieldand it's a car that comes and I
think they're lost tourists andthey arrest me and they bring me
in that little house tointerrogate me and never I think
oh I should get a lawyer orwhat's happening or nothing like
that. But then they go about mysexual relation with people how
many times and how and they getreally it's very humiliating. So
(04:37):
they release me, they arrest meagain and it goes on like that.
Then they let me go, I finishedmy training, I end up in Ottawa.
And finally in Ottawa, I'm atthe National Defense Medical
Center and I graduated from mytraining.
I work at the pharmacy and I getcalled by the psychiatrist. I'm
(04:59):
at the pharmacy so I'm notreally sure why. So I go there
and it was to evaluate me to seeif I was rehabilitable. So
finally it didn't really go verywell obviously. But they let me
go and to the point even thatthey came back to me and they
said okay we want to keep you,we want to renew the contract, a
contract of three years and Isay okay I don't want to do this
(05:22):
role anymore I would like tobecome a chem research.
So they went on and they cameback with their contract and I
signed it and I was going to goto Kingston and it's only like a
month later that they call me atthe head office to tell me that
I was dissonably discharged forbeing a sexual deviant under a
(05:42):
law policy where homosexualitywas the same that bestality,
rape and incest. It was inDecember, it was a shock because
I really thought after all thattraining and I was really good
too, really succeed well. Thatnever something like that. I
(06:05):
could not understand. I couldnot understand why my sexual
orientation and sometime even mygender was in the way.
Because we're in the eighties.They didn't really want women in
the army. It was really new. Sosometimes my question was it
really because I was a lesbianor because I was a woman and
nobody and there wasn't greatpolicy to come after us. So I
(06:29):
left the army.
I was totally destroyed. I didtry to fight with my father. We
made it until the chef that wasGeneral Theriot that told me
there was no injustice and thatI let myself go. So I stopped
fighting from there because Ihad to take care of myself. I
(06:50):
had to go through therapy.
And it's only in 1999 that Ifound really a job that was
fitting for me. It was IBM. Andwhen they offered me the job the
first time, I said no because Iwas sure they were like the
army. So I started here in NewBrunswick in The Maritimes at
IBM in 1999 for Y2K and Idiscover a fully inclusive
(07:15):
company. The policy was theresince 1953 that TJ Watson put in
place about inclusion.
So I went through IBM and it'svia IBM that I created the first
LGBT group in St. John NewBrunswick in February. Came back
to Montreal in 02/2005. Icreated in 2008 with seven other
(07:39):
person Pride at Work Canada. Andfor me Pride at Work Canada was
my revenge.
It was my way of okay, I'm gonnaget the workplace. I'm gonna
change every workplace possible.Alright. And I think it did work
to a certain point. So I wasthere for ten years.
And through that, I became thepresident Day Against
(08:02):
Homophobia. And I'm the one thathad transphobia to it by
consultation as a president. Andthen in 2014, there's someone
that calls me and you have tounderstand, 1984, I got fired.
The only person I knew that wasfired was Michelle Douglas in
(08:24):
1992. And when that happened Iwas sure they were going to ring
my doorbell and come in Siemensand apologize and get my job
back.
But they never did. They nevereven talked. They was a purge.
Never So everybody was soashamed. Nobody was talking
about it.
So I didn't meet anybody elseuntil 2014. That's where I met
(08:49):
the first time someone else thatwas affected and so affected
that I felt privileged. And theysay we want to ask for an
apology. So I decided to try tohelp and it was two women from
Maritime again, two professorsfrom St. John University, I have
(09:10):
to say it, Carmen Poulet andLynn Gottelier that were doing a
research in 2000 and asked mequestions.
They're the one that pushed in2014 that a group get together
with Gary Kingsman, PatriciaGentile, all academicians
together and we asked forapology. And we did. We went in
(09:31):
2015 at Parliament in front ofHarper and I don't think anybody
heard about it because it didn'twork, It didn't get anywhere. So
it took the Egal organizationthat created the Just Society
Committee where it was allpeople from all around Canada,
(09:54):
mostly from legal activists andall that, that put together 84
recommendations for the newLiberal Party that just got in
with. And in it, they asked toput with them an apology.
So they asked us can we put itin a recommendation and can
someone from Widom and AnApology comes to Ottawa. So I
(10:17):
ran there and I met for thefirst time Douglas Elliott and
Michelle Douglas life. It wasthe first time in my It was
really like and then again thestory more and more people going
through it and it was likecoming from everywhere and
that's where I joined the JustSociety Committee to represent
(10:39):
Quebec. And we really, reallythought when we give the
recommendation to Judy Riebelthat she would put them in
place. Mhmm.
But she didn't. Not right away.It was taking forever. So in
December 2016, I brought my fileto Douglas Elliot and I asked
him, can we do something aboutthis? And said, let's do a class
(11:02):
action.
So that's how we launched aclass action in December 2016 in
Quebec, Ontario and we found outthere was someone in Nova
Scotia. Alida Cecilyk thatwanted to do it so we got her on
board, and we had 11 lawyers togo fight for it.
Emma Stanley (11:22):
Okay. No way. That is quite a story. I know. And
one that takes place over somany decades.
Cyn Sweeney (11:31):
Thanks so much for sharing that journey from back
when you were 19 years old upuntil 2017 when the apology was
made. And then after that, theformulation of this documentary,
The Fruit Machine. I just wantto go back for those who maybe
haven't seen The Fruit Machineor don't know the significance
(11:53):
of the name of that title. Myunderstanding is that The Fruit
Machine as a name was like theformula they used, like a queer
detector as they were spying andhunting and looking for queer
people within the military. Anda series of questions and traits
that they aligned to those whothey suspected of being
(12:14):
homosexual.
Do you wanna talk just a littlebit about the significance of
that of the name?
Martine Roy (12:19):
Yeah. Exactly. It it was created, by the RCMP.
What happened? It was a machinethat doctor Wake of Carleton
University that was sent inUnited States to study kind of a
machine that was looking atshowing picture and image and
(12:39):
depending of the eyes pupilshape and all that they would
say, that person is gay or notgay.
It seems they tried it for acouple of years and that was
mostly like in the 50s when theystarted. Because when you're
from the community it's notnecessarily written on your
forehead. So they were, how canwe find the gays? They did all
(13:00):
kind of thing. In Ottawa theyeven tried to do a map with
trying to find everybody wherethey mete out.
And then some trade the way thatpeople were walking, holding
their book, which car they weredriving, which way they were
sitting in the bar. And all thatbecause of the fear that if the
(13:21):
KGB with Russia would get us andwould get us to talk because
we're gays. So that started withthe Russian and the communist
and everything. And that was therationale behind why they were
arresting us. So they createdthat machine called the fruit
machine.
Fruit machine is really like asatsi. It's we're making a we're
(13:44):
laughing about the community.And it was such a bad one that
it's still in the book. And thismachine is at the war museum in
Ottawa. Never really worked.
It was because they could notreally detect. It was not a for
sure thing. So then they went tothe other way which was witch
hunt. They were following us,they were taking pictures. When
(14:16):
they were arresting someone thegoal was to break that person
and get that person to givenames.
And what we found out too with aresearcher, a reporter from the
Global Mail is there was a JohnWatkins that was a diplomat in
the 50s. He was a friend ofLeslie Pearson and it seems
(14:41):
while he was in Paris he had anaffair with a Russian guy. The
RCMP was so scared that the KGBarrested him that they arrested
him. They interrogated him inParis for many hours, then
brought him to Dorval in Quebecand interrogated him for over
(15:06):
sixty hours and he died of aheart attack. For us, it's the
beginning of it.
That crazy interrogation thatdoesn't finish and goes in
circles and tries to break you.So this story about a thousand
pages just came out to talkabout it. And we have to
(15:28):
understand this started likeafter the second war until 1992.
This is a long time.
Cyn Sweeney (15:40):
It's almost unbelievable, you know, when I
was listening to, you know, howsome people had had bags put
over their head and put into acar and driven somewhere and
then interrogated for hours and,you know, the psychological
torture that, all went through.During that period of the
apology, did anyone that hadparticipated in the purge within
(16:01):
the RCMP, did any of them comeforward and apologize? Or do you
ever wonder what had happened tothose people?
Martine Roy (16:07):
For sure, we always wonder. The closest I got was
someone that was in the legalteam that dealt with it and that
today is feeling really bad. Butshe didn't really have any
control. People didn't reallyhave a control on it. You have
to understand this was a blackand white policy.
And when you were in the armyand I'm sure RCMP, you were
(16:29):
never questioning decision fromhierarchy. You were lessening.
And that's what I'm trying tofind out because for me too it
doesn't make sense. I'm surepeople raise their hand. I'm
sure people say things.
It's impossible nobody didn'tsay anything and accept that all
along. And that's why we workreally really hard with the
(16:51):
Perch Fund to go and get. We gotabout 30,000 archive now on the
website from that period. But itdoesn't tell us everything. So
there's the National Defense twothat are doing some research to
find out to find out whathappened.
Emma Stanley (17:09):
I am curious on the topic of documentation now.
I'm obviously, you want thewhole story, but I know that the
Purge Fund is still fighting toget more documents declassified
and released, and it sounds likethat is sort of continually a
fight. What are you hoping toachieve by getting the full
(17:30):
documentation?
Martine Roy (17:31):
You know, when I was working at IBM, there's one
thing that I learned is if Idon't have the problem, I cannot
find a solution. I rememberpeople freaking out when I used
to tell them, can you reproducethe issue for me to find a
solution? For me, that's it. Wewe need to talk about what
happened to get somewhere else.And when we're in denial, then
(17:56):
we make it like it didn'thappen.
Well, it's dormant, and this iswhat's happening today. It's
coming out left, right, andcenter. Because people are not
well informed. People aremisinformed. And that's why I
find that that documentationneeds to tell us the story.
I'm gonna tell you we succeed.We went to court and we got our
(18:17):
documentation we were lookingfor. So now we have 30,000. We
have almost everything we werelooking And we have Sven
Robinson and Sour Wortman aswell working on those documents.
We wanna know what happened.
We wanna know where are ourallies because I'm sure we had
(18:38):
some. I want to know who are thepeople because one question I
have, and maybe somebody isgoing to tell me one day, is I
come in '69 with decriminalizedhomosexuality but in his own
company, in his own house, itwas criminal for twenty three
more years. That I don'tunderstand.
Cyn Sweeney (19:00):
Time to take a break from this TransCanada
Stories for a TD ConnectedCommunities moment.
Emma Stanley (19:06):
In TransCanada Stories, we're all about
connecting communities. We wouldlove to hear your thoughts on
today's shows. Were you aware ofthe purge, or is it new
information for you? Leave us amessage on our SpeakPipe phone
line, and be a part of theconversation. We'll share
highlights from your responsesin the next episode.
That was a TD ConnectedCommunity Moment because
community matters.
Cyn Sweeney (19:28):
I still remember listening to the apology. I
think my son had transitionedtwo years prior, and I still
remember Prime MinisterTrudeau's words, you know, I am
sorry. We are sorry. And, youknow, I couldn't fathom what it
was for. I really like there wasno connection.
There was no context. And then Ithought, who is he apologizing
(19:51):
on behalf? Where is the we? Youknow, where are their apologies?
Just watching the fruit machinewas just, oh, it's just such an
eye opener.
And I really hope that it's afilm that perhaps educators pull
into schools, you know, and makeit part of the high school
curriculum for people to learnmore about what, you know, our
(20:12):
history.
Emma Stanley (20:13):
So if I can jump in here, speaking of our
history, particularly asCanadians, I've been really
excited about this interview.And so I've been telling all my
friends, and I have an olderacquaintance. And when I
described the fruit machine,because I was trying to get him
to to watch the documentary, Thesort of immediate reaction was,
(20:35):
I said, This thing happened inCanada? And he said, Yeah, but
also in The States, right? Andthat line just drives me a
little bit nuts.
There is this built in Canadianbread defense system of blaming
everything on America andassuming that all of our sins
come from there. And I teachworkshops and it comes up again
(20:59):
and again, this Canadiansmugness of that doesn't happen
here. And if it did, it wasbecause of someone, some other
country, some other culture. Andmaybe this is just my bias,
being Canadian that I feel likeit's more of a problem here. But
do you think that, this film andyour story will have a concrete
(21:22):
effect on this idea that racismand and discrimination of all
kinds happens somewhere else andthat Canada isn't like that?
Martine Roy (21:31):
I like your question very much and your
point there. And I totallyagree. I hear it a lot too. For
me, I find that we've been indenial a lot, and and we sit on
that. And and we we act as ifand yes, we like to blame others
but no, this happened here.
(21:52):
It was really a Canadianproduct. It was in our military
book CP '19 OCF 1920. It wasenforced everywhere. A lot of
people knew about it. I still Imeet a lot of military people
that tell me, oh, that's whathappened to my friend that
(22:15):
disappeared.
People didn't know because theywere really like even me, my
best friend didn't know where Iwent. And at that time we didn't
have a cell phone. We didn'thave email. We had no way of
connecting together. And we wereso ashamed that we were not
talking about it.
Me I went back to Montreal andpeople were asking me what
(22:37):
happened to you. Oh I didn'tlike it. I didn't like it. I was
not telling them I got fired forbeing gay. I think the first
time I really came out with thatwas at IBM because I was so
ashamed.
And I think it's very sad thatwe always hide behind that.
Like, it's like the sixty'sscoop for me. Okay? I met
(23:02):
someone that was sold in amagazine. And when I tell people
that they're like, no, no, itdidn't happen here.
And I'm like yes it did. It did.We used to sell kids in magazine
that we used to take away fromtheir family because they had no
water or electricity and for usthey cannot be taken care of. So
(23:23):
we have all those preconditionvision of the way it's supposed
to be. Even when I came to NewBrunswick the first time in the
90s and discovering Acadian.
And wanted to put the Acadianflag in Norton and being told
no, don't do that. They're gonnaburn you down. And I was like,
(23:46):
we're in Canada. So I think itis so important that we talk
about the real thing. And like Isaid prior, I think it's the
only way we're gonna findsolution.
And me, I'm still thinking, youknow, when I was 18, I didn't
wanna go from being heterosexualto homosexual. I didn't want to
(24:07):
go from one to the other. I justwanted to be myself. And I'm
going to tell you a littlestory. My mother was really
really hard for me on being gay.
She was like thinking it's herface. She was even thinking I
was doing it just to provokeher. And she was missing out.
And I would laugh for a whileand when I came back to Montreal
in 2005 she was so happy thatit's like she forgot about that
(24:32):
hatred she had. And I was at IBMand the group at IBM was called
Blue Queer.
Since 1995 it was created. Andqueer is not a sexual
orientation. It's not a genderidentity. It's out of the norm.
A great name in a way when youthink about it.
(24:53):
But when I tried to translate itwas impossible because it was
like doesn't work. So she wasseeing me struggle trying to
find a French name because I'min Quebec and Montreal. She
calls me two days later and shesaid I found it. And I said what
did you find? The name you'relooking for your group.
And I'm like you and all peoplewere looking for that name. I
(25:16):
have to listen to this. And shesaid nuance. And I was stunned
because for me nuance is exactlywho I am. I'm not just a
lesbian.
I'm not just a white woman. I'mnot just I'm all kind of
different little things mixedtogether and there's not one
like me. And I have all mynuance. So and it's French and
(25:40):
it's English. So at IBM theemployee resource group, a
business resource group that wecall today is Blue Q Nuance.
And for me that's my philosophy.That's the way I see life and I
really see life as anelectricity. Know as it's
electrifying. You meet people,you share energy I really really
(26:03):
thought that because of Covid wewere scared of dying that we
would not get where we are todayand all day today. So I really
hope that the commentary helpsfor that.
I'm sorry the documentary wasnot prior to the apology. That
would make more sense. Peoplewould understand the apology and
(26:26):
understand why he was in touchbecause he read the story of
Diane Pitt and Diane Pitt wasraped. So that's why he was so
in touch when he delivered theapology she was right in front
of him standing up. So it'simportant all the steps and I'm
sorry that you know when youfight a case like this you
(26:47):
cannot put all the plates topieces.
So it comes after hopefully nowpeople will understand and to
finish Sensia you're gonna behappy to know that Canadian Army
Forces bought the right of themovie for three years and
Veteran Affairs did as well andthey're using it and I've been
(27:08):
going around to headquarter ofthe army, I did a lot of public
function. With the Purge Fund aswell we got subtitle and we even
dubbed it in French. So we'rereally trying to use it as a
tool like you say because Ithink it is a great tool.
Cyn Sweeney (27:27):
That is phenomenal and out of this as well through
the fund that you received, tobring this story out into the
open, the Rainbow Veterans ofCanada was also formed. Is that
correct?
Martine Roy (27:41):
Yes. It a funny story too because it was an
accident. But the aunt created anice crest for us because we
were called serving with pride.And when I was creating the
Cetacean, which the medal thatwas given to everyone, I was
working with the Harold officeand when I showed them the
(28:04):
badge, the crest, they said itwas illegal because it has to be
ordered by the army to have acrest. So I say okay, so let's
order one.
And they say well you have tocreate a legion. And I say wow,
yes, let's create a legion. Andthat's how the Rainbow Veterans
of Canada were created. ThePerch Fund funded the old
(28:27):
creation. And now Zian Pitt andTodd Ross are the two co chairs.
And a lot of people are on boardand they work with Veteran
Affairs. And it became the bestthing ever because now they can
help even people that are in themilitary today, are coming out
as a veteran, or people that areolder, never really get any
(28:49):
support about their sexualorientation.
Emma Stanley (28:52):
So with the creation of something like the
Rainbow Veterans of Canada, WhenI'm having these conversations
with people who maybe don't knowthe ins and outs of what's going
on all the time, a question thatI get a lot is like, haven't we
kind of solved this? And andit's true. Things have gotten a
(29:13):
lot better. The conditions havechanged, and and largely,
they've changed for the better.So from someone who's been doing
this work for many decades, howhas the work of inclusion
changed from witch hunts in theseventies and eighties to today?
Martine Roy (29:34):
It changed a lot for sure because we're allowed
to get married. We can havechildren. But it's never
acquired. That's the problem.And and that's what's happening
now.
And and I'm I'm I was very proudof what where we got. I was
proud of the apology. I wasproud of the class action. Class
(29:56):
action is the biggest classaction in the world. There's not
another country that did that.
The monument, everything. Butnow something is happening. And
we need to gather and help eachother because it's like gender
is bothering. And it's not justtransgender, it's gender. And
(30:17):
mostly the woman gender ingeneral.
Anything that is connected to itand then they're going to touch
to our children too. They'rereally going in a way that is
very concerning but in the sametime we dealt with all that
already too. We have atUniversity of Montreal, it's
(30:42):
gonna be six years a Shire forInfantrance. We we it was just
renewed to become a seniorShire. We have clinics.
We have people. We haveinformation. And right now, all
what's happening isdisinformation. I have even
friend that I'm questioningwhere and I'm asking that, where
(31:04):
did you see those things? Mhmm.
Who told you those things? And Ithink that's the work of all of
us to make sure people are wellinformed. And that's the problem
right now. People are being toldor being shown things that are
not happening. And they'rethey're acting and judging on
things that are not real.
(31:25):
So it's really troubling. Theold drag thing too, I find is
very troubling too because forme, I think it's the story that
is important you know. And Idon't know when I was a kid I
had people that were telling mestory that were looking as a
drag of today and a drag at theend of the day is a woman. So
(31:46):
are we saying that women aredisturbing? Are we saying that
so it's all that that I'mquestioning and I'm a mother so
it's really hard for me tounderstand.
So I'm trying to do the best Ican to pass the message and use
the purge what happened to us asdiscrimination and how it
(32:08):
destroy our life as an exampleof what can be happening right
now with what people are doing.
Cyn Sweeney (32:15):
Martine, you're a mother and you said something
last night in the fireside chatthat, you know, I don't think
people realize how fragile ourhuman rights are and and, you
know, everything that is isgoing on right here at home but
around the world. But you youmentioned last night how if you
were in Italy at the moment youwould no longer be a mother.
Martine Roy (32:36):
Mhmm.
Cyn Sweeney (32:36):
Do you wanna just elaborate a little bit on that?
Martine Roy (32:39):
That's so hard for me because I live in Italy. I
have a lot of friends in Italy.I love Italy. It means that the
prime minister decided the onethat the leader in Italy, and
it's a woman, I decided that ifyou are not biologically
(33:00):
connected to the child you don'thave any more right over the
child. So the in vitro andeverything in us we did the did
in vitro with my wife.
It is her that had the child.But it means that if that law
was here in Canada it means thatI would not be their mother
(33:23):
anymore. All the paper andeverything I did would be
invaluable. So that's what Imean like abortion in The
States. Look what just happened.
So it's very important to graspthat it's not because we acquire
some right that we always goingto have them. We have to
preserve them. We have to carefor them. And this is why it was
(33:45):
so important and the 84recommendation I invite you to
go on the Egal website and lookat the Just Society Committee
recommendation. You're going tosee we even help to put C60 to
expunge file from people thathad growth in the C.
We even remove a law that washere since we put our feet here
(34:09):
that was saying that two men,they have to be both 18. One
cannot be 16 like a woman. Youcould be arrested. So we removed
that law. A lot of thingschange, but people have to be
aware and they have to be awareto make sure we save those and
that we don't go backwards.
Cyn Sweeney (34:28):
This may be a difficult question to answer,
but if you had the opportunityto sit down with some, you know,
a Department of Educationleader, a Minister of Education
in one of the provinces rightnow that you know, is not New
Brunswick, is not Saskatchewan,and they might be in a position
where they're determining wherethey're going to go with
allowing, you know, genderaffirming education in school.
(34:50):
What would you say to them ifyou had that opportunity?
Martine Roy (34:53):
I would bring them with me to a meeting at the
Meraki clinic to meet withCheval Ghosh and Andrea Gorskov
to doctor that was with ChildrenMontreal and sit down and let's
talk. Because people like I sayare misinformed. One of the
thing I can tell you there's notone child that will go in the
(35:15):
clinic that will get anoperation from it. And a lot of
time they're going to give betablocker and the beta blocker is
not a new medication. It existssince the 70s.
We use it for puberty that wastoo fast and not fast enough.
And this permits to the child todecide or to feel himself to
give him the time to give himthe buffer and to give as well
(35:38):
the doctor and everybody workingwith that child to make sure
that they're doing the rightthing because you know the
decision it belongs to thechild. At the end of the day
nobody else should be decidingfor them. It should be their
child. And we did all that.
We even put in place a law inQuebec that at 14 you can change
(35:59):
your name if you need. Becauseit is traumatizing to go in a
school and see yourself as onegender and being called another
gender. And the thing at the endI would say to that person, What
does it matter? What does itmatter? You know the child what
(36:19):
you want.
You want a child that ishealthy, thriving, you know
authentic. What doesn't matter.That's why I always come back to
it's the electricity and not theplumbing that is important in
someone. And find that peoplereally put a lot of time on
gender like that. And I'm goingto be honest and I talk a lot
(36:40):
with my wife about it and I wastalking to a woman this morning
too.
I don't feel like a woman allthe time. I don't. And there's
day I feel way more masculinethan feminine and I just want to
be. So that's what people aresaying and we want to get out of
the norm. We've been in the normforever.
(37:04):
Know the pink and the blue andit's a boy it's gonna go this
way, it's a girl it's gonna Canwe just be? You know and I think
that would be helpful. If we goby the study Aboriginal and even
my wife is a First Nation, kidswhen they were born they were
(37:24):
not said, Okay you're going tobe a woman and you're going to
be They were just be. And theywould let them grow And they
would let them like if thatchild wants to go hunting and if
that they would let them be anddiscover themselves. And I think
that's what we need to do.
And I think we shouldconcentrate more on the
curriculum than on that. Becauseright now we're losing a lot of
(37:46):
time and I find that thecurriculum are in school needs
to be changed to be more 2023for the skills and what people
need. Children are somewhereelse with all the data, with all
the accessibility. We don't needto show them how to access a
computer I think. So we need totalk about something else.
(38:09):
We need to be somewhere else.And I don't know why this is
coming out so strong right now.I don't know why people are so
scared of. I would like them totell me what are people scared
of about this topic.
Cyn Sweeney (38:25):
Think that's such a good point, and I think you're
exactly right. I don't thinkpeople would be scared of this
topic if it wasn't for sort ofthat false narrative of fear
mongering that is happening,unfortunately. But that is such
great advice. Thank you,Martine.
Martine Roy (38:39):
You're welcome.
Emma Stanley (38:40):
Alright. I think we're almost out of time. I'm
gonna leave you with one lastquestion. Your LinkedIn profile
says that one of your importantskills is being authentic. What
does that mean for you, and whatcan we achieve by simply going
out and being ourselves?
Martine Roy (38:56):
I think we can achieve that people's gonna love
us for who we are and not forwhat we try to look for like
like. Right? I find that a lotof time we try to fit and look
for others and what's importantis us. One thing is I'm a very
spontaneous person. So when I'mnot authentic it's like I lose
(39:18):
my voice.
It's like things are not comingout like I want them to come
out. I know it's I can bevulnerable like that too. And I
know being vulnerable is noteasy but I rather be vulnerable
than non accessible. Know andand for me it's important. Like
I said I have two kids and Ireally want to show a good
(39:41):
example.
I don't want to show themsomebody like that is not happy.
I want to show and take risktoo. And it is a risk to be
authentic, but I find it Ialways say it's like an
investment. You know? Like thedocumentary for me was an
investment, you know?
I have a big mortgage to paybecause I'm doing it, but it's a
(40:03):
great investment because it'sgiving back. It's being back.
And I don't know for you guys,but me when I'm not authentic, I
cannot be focused and I cannotbe productive. So it slows me
down. It it makes my workharder.
And I find I cannot answerpeople the way I would like to.
I always make the the commentlike my wife had breast cancer.
(40:27):
And if I could not be authentic,would say what my husband has a
cancer. And you start lyingabout it and all that. And at
KPMG, they did the study.
500 employees and more that arenot authentic lose about fifteen
minutes a day in lying. At theend of the year, it's over a
(40:48):
million point 5 in lost time. Sowhen people likes to talk about
money, that talks about money.Mhmm. Yeah.
Emma Stanley (40:56):
I wish I could keep you here all day, but I
can't. I cannot thank you enoughfor coming into the show. And I
I hope everybody listening runsout and watches the fruit
machine. It is a fantasticdocumentary. And, hopefully,
we'll be able to have you on theshow again.
Martine Roy (41:13):
Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I wish you
an amazing day. Thank you all.
Cyn Sweeney (41:17):
It's the end of the road for this episode of
TransCanada Stories.
Emma Stanley (41:23):
If you'd like more information on our other
programming, check outsimplygoodform.com. We hope
you'll subscribe to our podcastand that we'll see you again
next time.
Welcome to TransCanada Stories. I'm Cynthia
Sweeney, and I use sheherpronouns.
Emma Stanley (00:12):
I'm Emma Stanley. I use sheher pronouns. In this
podcast, we go beyond the binarycoast to coast, telling the
stories of trans people aspeople. In 2018, filmmaker Sarah
Foti made a documentaryfeaturing survivors of a decades
long homosexual witch hunt inCanada. The film recounts
personal stories of dedicationand betrayal at the hands of the
(00:35):
Canadian government.
Former public servants weretargeted in what is called the
Purge. And in the documentary,The Fruit Machine, they came
together united to seek justice,reconciliation, and
memorialization. On September19, two survivors joined a
screening of the film at theHalifax Central Library,
followed by a fireside chat. Theevent was sponsored by TD Bank
(00:56):
Group. Today, we are humbled tobe joined by Martine Roy, one of
those survivors, to talk to usabout her experience being
targeted within the Purge.
So Martine is now here with usin the studio. Martine, I'm so
happy to have you on the show.
Martine Roy (01:12):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be
here and very humble about it.
Cyn Sweeney (01:15):
And I'm recording from my bedroom today because I
have COVID.
Emma Stanley (01:21):
The Purge is a difficult topic to talk about,
and I can only imagine howdifficult it was to actually be
involved in it. So I met youthrough this documentary called
The Fruit Machine. Now The FruitMachine is about a series of
events that took place fromstarting in the 1940s with Cold
(01:45):
War paranoia leading up to, Ithink, 2017 when there was a
formal apology from PrimeMinister Justin Trudeau about
what happened. Can you tell mewhat happened from your
perspective?
Martine Roy (01:59):
Okay. So me, I'm really a girl from Montreal,
Born, raised in Montreal. Myfather was a cinematographer
from National Film Board. I hadtwo sisters, very artsy family.
And I didn't know what I wantedto do.
Everybody was really like a lotof talent and I didn't have a
talent. So my father workedreally hard to try to convince
(02:23):
me to do something with myselfso I joined the Army Forces to
become a medical adjoint,medical assistant. And I didn't
really wanna go. I didn't knowwhat I was getting on board
with. I was like 19 years old.
I was seeing a woman inMontreal, even the one that
started first pride parade inMontreal. I was was with her.
(02:45):
And so I joined the army and atthe two first week I was like
resisting resisting calling mymother asking her to get me out
of there. And she was saying noI cannot do anything so I really
join in. And I put my 150%.
I cannot tell you that I knewthat we cannot be as homosexual
(03:07):
or not. I didn't grasp that. SoI did my training. It was
amazing, good training and Igraduated and all that and then
I met a man and I fell for himand I started going out with
him. I didn't question myself,no I was seeing a woman before
now a man or I'm 19 years oldwhat was the most important was
(03:29):
to succeed because it was heavytraining and to make it.
So finally I'm transferred toBorden. He has transferred as
well to Borden and while we'reboth training at one point I
meet a woman at the hospital andwe start talking and everything
and one of the things she tellsme is let's keep our boyfriend
(03:51):
or because we're not allowed.And that's the first time I
grasped that hope and we're notallowed. And I don't even have
time that I turned around, I getarrested. It's almost like they
ran my mind.
(04:12):
So I get arrested in the fieldand it's a car that comes and I
think they're lost tourists andthey arrest me and they bring me
in that little house tointerrogate me and never I think
oh I should get a lawyer orwhat's happening or nothing like
that. But then they go about mysexual relation with people how
many times and how and they getreally it's very humiliating. So
(04:37):
they release me, they arrest meagain and it goes on like that.
Then they let me go, I finishedmy training, I end up in Ottawa.
And finally in Ottawa, I'm atthe National Defense Medical
Center and I graduated from mytraining.
I work at the pharmacy and I getcalled by the psychiatrist. I'm
(04:59):
at the pharmacy so I'm notreally sure why. So I go there
and it was to evaluate me to seeif I was rehabilitable. So
finally it didn't really go verywell obviously. But they let me
go and to the point even thatthey came back to me and they
said okay we want to keep you,we want to renew the contract, a
contract of three years and Isay okay I don't want to do this
(05:22):
role anymore I would like tobecome a chem research.
So they went on and they cameback with their contract and I
signed it and I was going to goto Kingston and it's only like a
month later that they call me atthe head office to tell me that
I was dissonably discharged forbeing a sexual deviant under a
(05:42):
law policy where homosexualitywas the same that bestality,
rape and incest. It was inDecember, it was a shock because
I really thought after all thattraining and I was really good
too, really succeed well. Thatnever something like that. I
(06:05):
could not understand. I couldnot understand why my sexual
orientation and sometime even mygender was in the way.
Because we're in the eighties.They didn't really want women in
the army. It was really new. Sosometimes my question was it
really because I was a lesbianor because I was a woman and
nobody and there wasn't greatpolicy to come after us. So I
(06:29):
left the army.
I was totally destroyed. I didtry to fight with my father. We
made it until the chef that wasGeneral Theriot that told me
there was no injustice and thatI let myself go. So I stopped
fighting from there because Ihad to take care of myself. I
(06:50):
had to go through therapy.
And it's only in 1999 that Ifound really a job that was
fitting for me. It was IBM. Andwhen they offered me the job the
first time, I said no because Iwas sure they were like the
army. So I started here in NewBrunswick in The Maritimes at
IBM in 1999 for Y2K and Idiscover a fully inclusive
(07:15):
company. The policy was theresince 1953 that TJ Watson put in
place about inclusion.
So I went through IBM and it'svia IBM that I created the first
LGBT group in St. John NewBrunswick in February. Came back
to Montreal in 02/2005. Icreated in 2008 with seven other
(07:39):
person Pride at Work Canada. Andfor me Pride at Work Canada was
my revenge.
It was my way of okay, I'm gonnaget the workplace. I'm gonna
change every workplace possible.Alright. And I think it did work
to a certain point. So I wasthere for ten years.
And through that, I became thepresident Day Against
(08:02):
Homophobia. And I'm the one thathad transphobia to it by
consultation as a president. Andthen in 2014, there's someone
that calls me and you have tounderstand, 1984, I got fired.
The only person I knew that wasfired was Michelle Douglas in
(08:24):
1992. And when that happened Iwas sure they were going to ring
my doorbell and come in Siemensand apologize and get my job
back.
But they never did. They nevereven talked. They was a purge.
Never So everybody was soashamed. Nobody was talking
about it.
So I didn't meet anybody elseuntil 2014. That's where I met
(08:49):
the first time someone else thatwas affected and so affected
that I felt privileged. And theysay we want to ask for an
apology. So I decided to try tohelp and it was two women from
Maritime again, two professorsfrom St. John University, I have
(09:10):
to say it, Carmen Poulet andLynn Gottelier that were doing a
research in 2000 and asked mequestions.
They're the one that pushed in2014 that a group get together
with Gary Kingsman, PatriciaGentile, all academicians
together and we asked forapology. And we did. We went in
(09:31):
2015 at Parliament in front ofHarper and I don't think anybody
heard about it because it didn'twork, It didn't get anywhere. So
it took the Egal organizationthat created the Just Society
Committee where it was allpeople from all around Canada,
(09:54):
mostly from legal activists andall that, that put together 84
recommendations for the newLiberal Party that just got in
with. And in it, they asked toput with them an apology.
So they asked us can we put itin a recommendation and can
someone from Widom and AnApology comes to Ottawa. So I
(10:17):
ran there and I met for thefirst time Douglas Elliott and
Michelle Douglas life. It wasthe first time in my It was
really like and then again thestory more and more people going
through it and it was likecoming from everywhere and
that's where I joined the JustSociety Committee to represent
(10:39):
Quebec. And we really, reallythought when we give the
recommendation to Judy Riebelthat she would put them in
place. Mhmm.
But she didn't. Not right away.It was taking forever. So in
December 2016, I brought my fileto Douglas Elliot and I asked
him, can we do something aboutthis? And said, let's do a class
(11:02):
action.
So that's how we launched aclass action in December 2016 in
Quebec, Ontario and we found outthere was someone in Nova
Scotia. Alida Cecilyk thatwanted to do it so we got her on
board, and we had 11 lawyers togo fight for it.
Emma Stanley (11:22):
Okay. No way. That is quite a story. I know. And
one that takes place over somany decades.
Cyn Sweeney (11:31):
Thanks so much for sharing that journey from back
when you were 19 years old upuntil 2017 when the apology was
made. And then after that, theformulation of this documentary,
The Fruit Machine. I just wantto go back for those who maybe
haven't seen The Fruit Machineor don't know the significance
(11:53):
of the name of that title. Myunderstanding is that The Fruit
Machine as a name was like theformula they used, like a queer
detector as they were spying andhunting and looking for queer
people within the military. Anda series of questions and traits
that they aligned to those whothey suspected of being
(12:14):
homosexual.
Do you wanna talk just a littlebit about the significance of
that of the name?
Martine Roy (12:19):
Yeah. Exactly. It it was created, by the RCMP.
What happened? It was a machinethat doctor Wake of Carleton
University that was sent inUnited States to study kind of a
machine that was looking atshowing picture and image and
(12:39):
depending of the eyes pupilshape and all that they would
say, that person is gay or notgay.
It seems they tried it for acouple of years and that was
mostly like in the 50s when theystarted. Because when you're
from the community it's notnecessarily written on your
forehead. So they were, how canwe find the gays? They did all
(13:00):
kind of thing. In Ottawa theyeven tried to do a map with
trying to find everybody wherethey mete out.
And then some trade the way thatpeople were walking, holding
their book, which car they weredriving, which way they were
sitting in the bar. And all thatbecause of the fear that if the
(13:21):
KGB with Russia would get us andwould get us to talk because
we're gays. So that started withthe Russian and the communist
and everything. And that was therationale behind why they were
arresting us. So they createdthat machine called the fruit
machine.
Fruit machine is really like asatsi. It's we're making a we're
(13:44):
laughing about the community.And it was such a bad one that
it's still in the book. And thismachine is at the war museum in
Ottawa. Never really worked.
It was because they could notreally detect. It was not a for
sure thing. So then they went tothe other way which was witch
hunt. They were following us,they were taking pictures. When
(14:16):
they were arresting someone thegoal was to break that person
and get that person to givenames.
And what we found out too with aresearcher, a reporter from the
Global Mail is there was a JohnWatkins that was a diplomat in
the 50s. He was a friend ofLeslie Pearson and it seems
(14:41):
while he was in Paris he had anaffair with a Russian guy. The
RCMP was so scared that the KGBarrested him that they arrested
him. They interrogated him inParis for many hours, then
brought him to Dorval in Quebecand interrogated him for over
(15:06):
sixty hours and he died of aheart attack. For us, it's the
beginning of it.
That crazy interrogation thatdoesn't finish and goes in
circles and tries to break you.So this story about a thousand
pages just came out to talkabout it. And we have to
(15:28):
understand this started likeafter the second war until 1992.
This is a long time.
Cyn Sweeney (15:40):
It's almost unbelievable, you know, when I
was listening to, you know, howsome people had had bags put
over their head and put into acar and driven somewhere and
then interrogated for hours and,you know, the psychological
torture that, all went through.During that period of the
apology, did anyone that hadparticipated in the purge within
(16:01):
the RCMP, did any of them comeforward and apologize? Or do you
ever wonder what had happened tothose people?
Martine Roy (16:07):
For sure, we always wonder. The closest I got was
someone that was in the legalteam that dealt with it and that
today is feeling really bad. Butshe didn't really have any
control. People didn't reallyhave a control on it. You have
to understand this was a blackand white policy.
And when you were in the armyand I'm sure RCMP, you were
(16:29):
never questioning decision fromhierarchy. You were lessening.
And that's what I'm trying tofind out because for me too it
doesn't make sense. I'm surepeople raise their hand. I'm
sure people say things.
It's impossible nobody didn'tsay anything and accept that all
along. And that's why we workreally really hard with the
(16:51):
Perch Fund to go and get. We gotabout 30,000 archive now on the
website from that period. But itdoesn't tell us everything. So
there's the National Defense twothat are doing some research to
find out to find out whathappened.
Emma Stanley (17:09):
I am curious on the topic of documentation now.
I'm obviously, you want thewhole story, but I know that the
Purge Fund is still fighting toget more documents declassified
and released, and it sounds likethat is sort of continually a
fight. What are you hoping toachieve by getting the full
(17:30):
documentation?
Martine Roy (17:31):
You know, when I was working at IBM, there's one
thing that I learned is if Idon't have the problem, I cannot
find a solution. I rememberpeople freaking out when I used
to tell them, can you reproducethe issue for me to find a
solution? For me, that's it. Wewe need to talk about what
happened to get somewhere else.And when we're in denial, then
(17:56):
we make it like it didn'thappen.
Well, it's dormant, and this iswhat's happening today. It's
coming out left, right, andcenter. Because people are not
well informed. People aremisinformed. And that's why I
find that that documentationneeds to tell us the story.
I'm gonna tell you we succeed.We went to court and we got our
(18:17):
documentation we were lookingfor. So now we have 30,000. We
have almost everything we werelooking And we have Sven
Robinson and Sour Wortman aswell working on those documents.
We wanna know what happened.
We wanna know where are ourallies because I'm sure we had
(18:38):
some. I want to know who are thepeople because one question I
have, and maybe somebody isgoing to tell me one day, is I
come in '69 with decriminalizedhomosexuality but in his own
company, in his own house, itwas criminal for twenty three
more years. That I don'tunderstand.
Cyn Sweeney (19:00):
Time to take a break from this TransCanada
Stories for a TD ConnectedCommunities moment.
Emma Stanley (19:06):
In TransCanada Stories, we're all about
connecting communities. We wouldlove to hear your thoughts on
today's shows. Were you aware ofthe purge, or is it new
information for you? Leave us amessage on our SpeakPipe phone
line, and be a part of theconversation. We'll share
highlights from your responsesin the next episode.
That was a TD ConnectedCommunity Moment because
community matters.
Cyn Sweeney (19:28):
I still remember listening to the apology. I
think my son had transitionedtwo years prior, and I still
remember Prime MinisterTrudeau's words, you know, I am
sorry. We are sorry. And, youknow, I couldn't fathom what it
was for. I really like there wasno connection.
There was no context. And then Ithought, who is he apologizing
(19:51):
on behalf? Where is the we? Youknow, where are their apologies?
Just watching the fruit machinewas just, oh, it's just such an
eye opener.
And I really hope that it's afilm that perhaps educators pull
into schools, you know, and makeit part of the high school
curriculum for people to learnmore about what, you know, our
(20:12):
history.
Emma Stanley (20:13):
So if I can jump in here, speaking of our
history, particularly asCanadians, I've been really
excited about this interview.And so I've been telling all my
friends, and I have an olderacquaintance. And when I
described the fruit machine,because I was trying to get him
to to watch the documentary, Thesort of immediate reaction was,
(20:35):
I said, This thing happened inCanada? And he said, Yeah, but
also in The States, right? Andthat line just drives me a
little bit nuts.
There is this built in Canadianbread defense system of blaming
everything on America andassuming that all of our sins
come from there. And I teachworkshops and it comes up again
(20:59):
and again, this Canadiansmugness of that doesn't happen
here. And if it did, it wasbecause of someone, some other
country, some other culture. Andmaybe this is just my bias,
being Canadian that I feel likeit's more of a problem here. But
do you think that, this film andyour story will have a concrete
(21:22):
effect on this idea that racismand and discrimination of all
kinds happens somewhere else andthat Canada isn't like that?
Martine Roy (21:31):
I like your question very much and your
point there. And I totallyagree. I hear it a lot too. For
me, I find that we've been indenial a lot, and and we sit on
that. And and we we act as ifand yes, we like to blame others
but no, this happened here.
(21:52):
It was really a Canadianproduct. It was in our military
book CP '19 OCF 1920. It wasenforced everywhere. A lot of
people knew about it. I still Imeet a lot of military people
that tell me, oh, that's whathappened to my friend that
(22:15):
disappeared.
People didn't know because theywere really like even me, my
best friend didn't know where Iwent. And at that time we didn't
have a cell phone. We didn'thave email. We had no way of
connecting together. And we wereso ashamed that we were not
talking about it.
Me I went back to Montreal andpeople were asking me what
(22:37):
happened to you. Oh I didn'tlike it. I didn't like it. I was
not telling them I got fired forbeing gay. I think the first
time I really came out with thatwas at IBM because I was so
ashamed.
And I think it's very sad thatwe always hide behind that.
Like, it's like the sixty'sscoop for me. Okay? I met
(23:02):
someone that was sold in amagazine. And when I tell people
that they're like, no, no, itdidn't happen here.
And I'm like yes it did. It did.We used to sell kids in magazine
that we used to take away fromtheir family because they had no
water or electricity and for usthey cannot be taken care of. So
(23:23):
we have all those preconditionvision of the way it's supposed
to be. Even when I came to NewBrunswick the first time in the
90s and discovering Acadian.
And wanted to put the Acadianflag in Norton and being told
no, don't do that. They're gonnaburn you down. And I was like,
(23:46):
we're in Canada. So I think itis so important that we talk
about the real thing. And like Isaid prior, I think it's the
only way we're gonna findsolution.
And me, I'm still thinking, youknow, when I was 18, I didn't
wanna go from being heterosexualto homosexual. I didn't want to
(24:07):
go from one to the other. I justwanted to be myself. And I'm
going to tell you a littlestory. My mother was really
really hard for me on being gay.
She was like thinking it's herface. She was even thinking I
was doing it just to provokeher. And she was missing out.
And I would laugh for a whileand when I came back to Montreal
in 2005 she was so happy thatit's like she forgot about that
(24:32):
hatred she had. And I was at IBMand the group at IBM was called
Blue Queer.
Since 1995 it was created. Andqueer is not a sexual
orientation. It's not a genderidentity. It's out of the norm.
A great name in a way when youthink about it.
(24:53):
But when I tried to translate itwas impossible because it was
like doesn't work. So she wasseeing me struggle trying to
find a French name because I'min Quebec and Montreal. She
calls me two days later and shesaid I found it. And I said what
did you find? The name you'relooking for your group.
And I'm like you and all peoplewere looking for that name. I
(25:16):
have to listen to this. And shesaid nuance. And I was stunned
because for me nuance is exactlywho I am. I'm not just a
lesbian.
I'm not just a white woman. I'mnot just I'm all kind of
different little things mixedtogether and there's not one
like me. And I have all mynuance. So and it's French and
(25:40):
it's English. So at IBM theemployee resource group, a
business resource group that wecall today is Blue Q Nuance.
And for me that's my philosophy.That's the way I see life and I
really see life as anelectricity. Know as it's
electrifying. You meet people,you share energy I really really
(26:03):
thought that because of Covid wewere scared of dying that we
would not get where we are todayand all day today. So I really
hope that the commentary helpsfor that.
I'm sorry the documentary wasnot prior to the apology. That
would make more sense. Peoplewould understand the apology and
(26:26):
understand why he was in touchbecause he read the story of
Diane Pitt and Diane Pitt wasraped. So that's why he was so
in touch when he delivered theapology she was right in front
of him standing up. So it'simportant all the steps and I'm
sorry that you know when youfight a case like this you
(26:47):
cannot put all the plates topieces.
So it comes after hopefully nowpeople will understand and to
finish Sensia you're gonna behappy to know that Canadian Army
Forces bought the right of themovie for three years and
Veteran Affairs did as well andthey're using it and I've been
(27:08):
going around to headquarter ofthe army, I did a lot of public
function. With the Purge Fund aswell we got subtitle and we even
dubbed it in French. So we'rereally trying to use it as a
tool like you say because Ithink it is a great tool.
Cyn Sweeney (27:27):
That is phenomenal and out of this as well through
the fund that you received, tobring this story out into the
open, the Rainbow Veterans ofCanada was also formed. Is that
correct?
Martine Roy (27:41):
Yes. It a funny story too because it was an
accident. But the aunt created anice crest for us because we
were called serving with pride.And when I was creating the
Cetacean, which the medal thatwas given to everyone, I was
working with the Harold officeand when I showed them the
(28:04):
badge, the crest, they said itwas illegal because it has to be
ordered by the army to have acrest. So I say okay, so let's
order one.
And they say well you have tocreate a legion. And I say wow,
yes, let's create a legion. Andthat's how the Rainbow Veterans
of Canada were created. ThePerch Fund funded the old
(28:27):
creation. And now Zian Pitt andTodd Ross are the two co chairs.
And a lot of people are on boardand they work with Veteran
Affairs. And it became the bestthing ever because now they can
help even people that are in themilitary today, are coming out
as a veteran, or people that areolder, never really get any
(28:49):
support about their sexualorientation.
Emma Stanley (28:52):
So with the creation of something like the
Rainbow Veterans of Canada, WhenI'm having these conversations
with people who maybe don't knowthe ins and outs of what's going
on all the time, a question thatI get a lot is like, haven't we
kind of solved this? And andit's true. Things have gotten a
(29:13):
lot better. The conditions havechanged, and and largely,
they've changed for the better.So from someone who's been doing
this work for many decades, howhas the work of inclusion
changed from witch hunts in theseventies and eighties to today?
Martine Roy (29:34):
It changed a lot for sure because we're allowed
to get married. We can havechildren. But it's never
acquired. That's the problem.And and that's what's happening
now.
And and I'm I'm I was very proudof what where we got. I was
proud of the apology. I wasproud of the class action. Class
(29:56):
action is the biggest classaction in the world. There's not
another country that did that.
The monument, everything. Butnow something is happening. And
we need to gather and help eachother because it's like gender
is bothering. And it's not justtransgender, it's gender. And
(30:17):
mostly the woman gender ingeneral.
Anything that is connected to itand then they're going to touch
to our children too. They'rereally going in a way that is
very concerning but in the sametime we dealt with all that
already too. We have atUniversity of Montreal, it's
(30:42):
gonna be six years a Shire forInfantrance. We we it was just
renewed to become a seniorShire. We have clinics.
We have people. We haveinformation. And right now, all
what's happening isdisinformation. I have even
friend that I'm questioningwhere and I'm asking that, where
(31:04):
did you see those things? Mhmm.
Who told you those things? And Ithink that's the work of all of
us to make sure people are wellinformed. And that's the problem
right now. People are being toldor being shown things that are
not happening. And they'rethey're acting and judging on
things that are not real.
(31:25):
So it's really troubling. Theold drag thing too, I find is
very troubling too because forme, I think it's the story that
is important you know. And Idon't know when I was a kid I
had people that were telling mestory that were looking as a
drag of today and a drag at theend of the day is a woman. So
(31:46):
are we saying that women aredisturbing? Are we saying that
so it's all that that I'mquestioning and I'm a mother so
it's really hard for me tounderstand.
So I'm trying to do the best Ican to pass the message and use
the purge what happened to us asdiscrimination and how it
(32:08):
destroy our life as an exampleof what can be happening right
now with what people are doing.
Cyn Sweeney (32:15):
Martine, you're a mother and you said something
last night in the fireside chatthat, you know, I don't think
people realize how fragile ourhuman rights are and and, you
know, everything that is isgoing on right here at home but
around the world. But you youmentioned last night how if you
were in Italy at the moment youwould no longer be a mother.
Martine Roy (32:36):
Mhmm.
Cyn Sweeney (32:36):
Do you wanna just elaborate a little bit on that?
Martine Roy (32:39):
That's so hard for me because I live in Italy. I
have a lot of friends in Italy.I love Italy. It means that the
prime minister decided the onethat the leader in Italy, and
it's a woman, I decided that ifyou are not biologically
(33:00):
connected to the child you don'thave any more right over the
child. So the in vitro andeverything in us we did the did
in vitro with my wife.
It is her that had the child.But it means that if that law
was here in Canada it means thatI would not be their mother
(33:23):
anymore. All the paper andeverything I did would be
invaluable. So that's what Imean like abortion in The
States. Look what just happened.
So it's very important to graspthat it's not because we acquire
some right that we always goingto have them. We have to
preserve them. We have to carefor them. And this is why it was
(33:45):
so important and the 84recommendation I invite you to
go on the Egal website and lookat the Just Society Committee
recommendation. You're going tosee we even help to put C60 to
expunge file from people thathad growth in the C.
We even remove a law that washere since we put our feet here
(34:09):
that was saying that two men,they have to be both 18. One
cannot be 16 like a woman. Youcould be arrested. So we removed
that law. A lot of thingschange, but people have to be
aware and they have to be awareto make sure we save those and
that we don't go backwards.
Cyn Sweeney (34:28):
This may be a difficult question to answer,
but if you had the opportunityto sit down with some, you know,
a Department of Educationleader, a Minister of Education
in one of the provinces rightnow that you know, is not New
Brunswick, is not Saskatchewan,and they might be in a position
where they're determining wherethey're going to go with
allowing, you know, genderaffirming education in school.
(34:50):
What would you say to them ifyou had that opportunity?
Martine Roy (34:53):
I would bring them with me to a meeting at the
Meraki clinic to meet withCheval Ghosh and Andrea Gorskov
to doctor that was with ChildrenMontreal and sit down and let's
talk. Because people like I sayare misinformed. One of the
thing I can tell you there's notone child that will go in the
(35:15):
clinic that will get anoperation from it. And a lot of
time they're going to give betablocker and the beta blocker is
not a new medication. It existssince the 70s.
We use it for puberty that wastoo fast and not fast enough.
And this permits to the child todecide or to feel himself to
give him the time to give himthe buffer and to give as well
(35:38):
the doctor and everybody workingwith that child to make sure
that they're doing the rightthing because you know the
decision it belongs to thechild. At the end of the day
nobody else should be decidingfor them. It should be their
child. And we did all that.
We even put in place a law inQuebec that at 14 you can change
(35:59):
your name if you need. Becauseit is traumatizing to go in a
school and see yourself as onegender and being called another
gender. And the thing at the endI would say to that person, What
does it matter? What does itmatter? You know the child what
(36:19):
you want.
You want a child that ishealthy, thriving, you know
authentic. What doesn't matter.That's why I always come back to
it's the electricity and not theplumbing that is important in
someone. And find that peoplereally put a lot of time on
gender like that. And I'm goingto be honest and I talk a lot
(36:40):
with my wife about it and I wastalking to a woman this morning
too.
I don't feel like a woman allthe time. I don't. And there's
day I feel way more masculinethan feminine and I just want to
be. So that's what people aresaying and we want to get out of
the norm. We've been in the normforever.
(37:04):
Know the pink and the blue andit's a boy it's gonna go this
way, it's a girl it's gonna Canwe just be? You know and I think
that would be helpful. If we goby the study Aboriginal and even
my wife is a First Nation, kidswhen they were born they were
(37:24):
not said, Okay you're going tobe a woman and you're going to
be They were just be. And theywould let them grow And they
would let them like if thatchild wants to go hunting and if
that they would let them be anddiscover themselves. And I think
that's what we need to do.
And I think we shouldconcentrate more on the
curriculum than on that. Becauseright now we're losing a lot of
(37:46):
time and I find that thecurriculum are in school needs
to be changed to be more 2023for the skills and what people
need. Children are somewhereelse with all the data, with all
the accessibility. We don't needto show them how to access a
computer I think. So we need totalk about something else.
(38:09):
We need to be somewhere else.And I don't know why this is
coming out so strong right now.I don't know why people are so
scared of. I would like them totell me what are people scared
of about this topic.
Cyn Sweeney (38:25):
Think that's such a good point, and I think you're
exactly right. I don't thinkpeople would be scared of this
topic if it wasn't for sort ofthat false narrative of fear
mongering that is happening,unfortunately. But that is such
great advice. Thank you,Martine.
Martine Roy (38:39):
You're welcome.
Emma Stanley (38:40):
Alright. I think we're almost out of time. I'm
gonna leave you with one lastquestion. Your LinkedIn profile
says that one of your importantskills is being authentic. What
does that mean for you, and whatcan we achieve by simply going
out and being ourselves?
Martine Roy (38:56):
I think we can achieve that people's gonna love
us for who we are and not forwhat we try to look for like
like. Right? I find that a lotof time we try to fit and look
for others and what's importantis us. One thing is I'm a very
spontaneous person. So when I'mnot authentic it's like I lose
(39:18):
my voice.
It's like things are not comingout like I want them to come
out. I know it's I can bevulnerable like that too. And I
know being vulnerable is noteasy but I rather be vulnerable
than non accessible. Know andand for me it's important. Like
I said I have two kids and Ireally want to show a good
(39:41):
example.
I don't want to show themsomebody like that is not happy.
I want to show and take risktoo. And it is a risk to be
authentic, but I find it Ialways say it's like an
investment. You know? Like thedocumentary for me was an
investment, you know?
I have a big mortgage to paybecause I'm doing it, but it's a
(40:03):
great investment because it'sgiving back. It's being back.
And I don't know for you guys,but me when I'm not authentic, I
cannot be focused and I cannotbe productive. So it slows me
down. It it makes my workharder.
And I find I cannot answerpeople the way I would like to.
I always make the the commentlike my wife had breast cancer.
(40:27):
And if I could not be authentic,would say what my husband has a
cancer. And you start lyingabout it and all that. And at
KPMG, they did the study.
500 employees and more that arenot authentic lose about fifteen
minutes a day in lying. At theend of the year, it's over a
(40:48):
million point 5 in lost time. Sowhen people likes to talk about
money, that talks about money.Mhmm. Yeah.
Emma Stanley (40:56):
I wish I could keep you here all day, but I
can't. I cannot thank you enoughfor coming into the show. And I
I hope everybody listening runsout and watches the fruit
machine. It is a fantasticdocumentary. And, hopefully,
we'll be able to have you on theshow again.
Martine Roy (41:13):
Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I wish you
an amazing day. Thank you all.
Cyn Sweeney (41:17):
It's the end of the road for this episode of
TransCanada Stories.
Emma Stanley (41:23):
If you'd like more information on our other
programming, check outsimplygoodform.com. We hope
you'll subscribe to our podcastand that we'll see you again
next time.
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