January 31, 2023 • 51 mins
“I thought I'm pretty good at what I do. Am I prepared to sacrifice all of that? And why should I have to?“
In this episode, Terri McDowell (She/Her), a Saskatchewan-born, C-Suite business leader gets vulnerable about what is was like transitioning in and on the job, in a profession that's male, cisgender dominant; and she shows us how she is inspiring transgender people professionally, through ‘the art of the possible.’
A Partner & Principal at financial advisory firm Ernst and Young (EY), Terri vulnerably shares, as a transgender woman, challenges and triumphs of her own personal gender transition on the job in a male and cisgender dominated profession, and provides tips on being allies on-the-job and how to avoid corporate pink-washing in an historically challenging period for transgender human rights worldwide.
Show links:
- Hey, Cis! TD Connected Community Moment: https://www.menti.com/alkb4uo5chb8 to participate. Then click here for results.
- Terri’s CGLCC Business Leader of the Year award:
- https://www.simplygoodform.ca/blog/peak-inside-the-Black-and-White-Gala
- https://www.cglcc.ca/2022/11/16/business-leadership-award-winners-2022/
- Vulnerability of transgender human rights and anti-trans legislation:
- https://19thnews.org/2023/01/trans-health-care-bills-2023-legislative-session-lgbtq/
- https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights
Produced and edited in-house.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/simply-good-form/
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/SimplyGoodForm
Hey, Cis! Season 3 is proudly partnered with TD Bank Group.
MUSIC:
Hey, Cis! thanks musical artist Craymo for our intro/extro song: Be Myself
Written by: Craig Stephen Raymo/Brandon Jarrett/Joshua Daniel Hershfield (c) (p) 2015 Craymo Music, BMI/Moho Music, ASCAP
Website: http://www.Craymo.com
For more beyond binary conversations on being better humans, tips for being an inclusive leader in your field and connecting with trans folks from coast-to-coast, subscribe to Hey, Cis! on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Isaac Cook (00:04):
Hey, Cis! From coast to coast, we're bridging the gap
between the cisgender andtransgender community, creating
meaningful dialogue and space tolearn and grow.
Cyn Sweeney (00:11):
Join us as we connect with our community,
break down tough conversations,and get comfortable being better
humans. Happy 2023 and welcometo Hey Sis. Thank you so much
for joining us for anotherincredible year. We would have
(00:34):
never thought back in October oftwenty twenty when we first
kicked it off that this journeywould bring us to where we are
today, halfway through seasonthree.
Isaac Cook (00:44):
And this time of the year, everyone is talking about
New Year's resolutions. Buthowever, here at Simply Good
Form, we're big fans of thephrase evolution instead,
because as we all know, growingis always a journey and not a
one and done situation. So thismonth, we wanna take a quick
second to highlight some up andcoming and interesting LGBTQ
(01:04):
plus news. Stranger Things starNoah Schnapp says he's, quote,
unquote, more similar to his onscreen character than he
thought. CNN Entertainmentreports that Noah shared a
TikTok video on January 5 inwhich he identifies self as gay.
The text on screen in the videoreads, when I finally told my
(01:25):
friends and family I was gayafter being scared in the closet
for eighteen years, they allsaid, we know.
Cyn Sweeney (01:30):
I love that. I love that so much because it really
does give representation,doesn't it, to those that are
living maybe in a rural areathat don't have a lot of
representation. I know I'vewatched all of Stranger Things
and I loved it, but the onlyreason I had gotten into it was
because of my kids. So I knowit's huge with younger
generations. More visibility isand representation is awesome.
Isaac Cook (01:53):
Well, yeah, and as you said, that's the biggest
thing, especially forindividuals in rural or smaller
communities where they don'thave anyone around them that
identifies as to as LGBTQ plus.So it's nice to see folks on the
big screen who also identify andthat we can. Represent ourselves
and relate to
Cyn Sweeney (02:09):
in other news. Just looking at what's been going on
around the world, I think justbefore just before the Christmas
break there, Scotland hadintroduced some new legislation
that could help, I guess,simplify the gender marker and
name change, making it moreaccessible. It looked like the
headline I saw was that transactivists are blasting the Tory
(02:31):
government in England becausethey're looking at maybe doing
some reform, which might meanthat they're not going to
recognise and help to support inEngland and Wales the great
moves that Scotland is lookingat trying to make accessibility
of gender affirming socialtransition, like changing your
name and your gender marker,more accessible. So it's
(02:52):
something that is worth watchingthat space and seeing what's
happening, especially as we lookto help simplify name changes
and gender markers here with thenew program we're going to be
developing with the MentalHealth Foundation of Nova Scotia
in 2023, just to help helppeople make it a little bit
simpler to get the paperworkthat you need and and then to
(03:12):
actually get someone to helpsign it at not an exuberant
cost.
Isaac Cook (03:17):
Yeah, and so many folks don't realize how
strenuous that process was. Youknow, it's been, oh, almost a
decade now since I changed myname, and the process has
changed some for the good, somefor the worse. So, you know,
learning to to navigate thatsystem is never the easiest,
(03:37):
especially in in these types ofareas. Now today, Cyndi and I
are joined by a very specialTerri McDowell. Terri, sheher,
is an active advocate for LGBTQplus rights in North America and
around the globe.
(03:58):
She has spoken in a variety offorums on her business rationale
and societal importance of DEIinitiatives in the workplace.
Terri is a strong believer thatvisibility matters. As a trans
woman herself and a highlyregarded professional in the
financial community, Teribelieves in the importance of
recognizing that transgenderindividuals exist across the
globe, careers, and acrosssociety. Welcome to Hey Cis,
(04:21):
Terri.
Terri McDowell (04:21):
Hello. Thanks for having me.
Isaac Cook (04:24):
Thank you so much for joining us today. It's great
pleasure to have you here. Solet's kick things first off with
a kind of, hey, sis classicicebreaker. Where are you from?
Where do you call home?
And perhaps can you share alittle bit about your coming out
story?
Terri McDowell (04:40):
Sure. I'm happy to dive into that personal
history. So my name's TerriMcDowell, pronouns are she and
her. I'm actually born andraised in Saskatchewan. So I'm
Canadian by birth and born andraised out West.
I have lived in a number ofplaces over the course of a very
(05:01):
long professional career. I am apartner with a firm here called
Ernst and Young, which is afinancial advisory firm
principally. I'm a tax partner.I principally work in the area
of mergers and acquisitions,international finance, that type
of thing. I've been with thefirm for a very long time, so
(05:22):
well over thirty five years now.
Kind of pains me to say that. Icurrently reside and call
Toronto home. This is actuallythe third time that I've lived
in Toronto. I lived here in thenineties. I went abroad and came
back in the February, wentabroad again, and came back to
Toronto in 2019.
(05:42):
I have also had the opportunityto work in New York City, for a
total of fifteen years. I wasthere twice. I have lived and
worked out of Miami, and I'velived and worked around Western
Canada earlier in my career. Iam also a transgender woman, and
I did go through my own personalgender transition on the job
(06:05):
here here at I have been withever since I graduated from the
University of Saskatchewan backin the nineteen eighties. So
that's the the quick bio on onwho I am and how I ended up in
Toronto and a little bit of whatit's like to to transition in
your job and on the job and withthe same organization.
(06:28):
So I'm happy to share my ownexperience because it's quite a
good one, to be honest.
Cyn Sweeney (06:33):
Thank you so much for sharing a little bit about
your background. And I love likehow vast it is geographically. I
met Teri at the CGLCC Awards inNovember, and it was just such a
pleasure to talk to you thereand see you up on stage and be
(06:53):
recognized as the CGLCC LGBTQplus Business Leader of the
Year. That must have felt prettyexciting for you.
Terri McDowell (07:03):
Yeah, it definitely was, As you would
have heard, because you werethere in person, I would suggest
there's a lot more activeadvocates in the public forum
than perhaps myself. My personaladvocacy approach has been more
by living visibly and making itclear where the transgender
(07:26):
community fits in the broadersociety, trying to be as visible
as possible. I think visibilitytruly matters to our community.
So that was a big part of it. Myhistory with the CGLCC goes back
a couple of years now.
As I said, I moved back toToronto in 2019, and that's when
I really kind of got exposed tothe organization, learned who
(07:47):
they were and the tremendouswork that they actually do in
connecting the community. And Ihad the opportunity to work with
them a couple of times, one ofthe more recent ones being in
2021, when they in conjunctionwith the UN, in conjunction with
the World Economic Forum, theydid a symposium and a panel on
(08:09):
the UN's anti discriminationstandards and in particular
engaged me to work on a panelfor anti discrimination in the
workplace. And I would suggestfor from an advocacy viewpoint,
that was perhaps a breakthroughmoment for me in terms of just
the importance to it. I, youknow, I've never downplayed the
(08:30):
importance of advocacy, but Ithink that really resonated with
me, what we can all kind of doon a personal individual front.
And, you know, the the quickanecdote that I would give there
is the the session we did, ofwhich I was part of the panel,
it was an in camera session, sopeople were anonymous, if you
(08:53):
will.
But we had 70 c suite leadersfrom around the world, and these
were CEOs or top executives, andthe tech companies were well
represented, the banks were wellrepresented, but there's only 70
there. And I know after thepanel was done, I was speaking
with one of my fellow panelists.And I said, said, yeah, that,
you know, I really enjoyed that.That was good. And there was
(09:14):
only 70.
But her comment to me, whichreally resonated is she said,
Terri, to a degree, you'remissing the point. There were 70
people in the room. But when youthink about the constituency
that they represent, theyrepresented hundreds of
thousands, in fact, ofemployees. And we had the right
level of person to hear themessage and take the message
(09:35):
forward. So that really did kindof resonate with me.
And as I say, that's prettyrecent. That just kind of hit me
in the last couple of years ofthe impact you can have when
you're given the honor andprivilege of having a platform
to speak to. Much like thesewebcasts, you never know who's
listening. You never know whoit's going to resonate the most
with and and what good can comeout of it.
Isaac Cook (09:56):
Yeah. Absolutely. I think for me too, like one of
the most underappreciated formsof advocacy is first and
foremost living your trueauthentic self. And, you know,
just because you're not usingsocial media every single day
and being in those spaces, thatdoesn't mean you aren't
advocating. But second thing isthat advocacy and inclusion for
(10:18):
me at least, it's a very topdown when it comes to the
workplace and that if theindividuals who are at the C
Suite don't get it, then thoseunderneath them won't also
follow suit.
To your point exactly, you know,those 70 folks that were in the
room, yes, there was only 70,but you know, there's real, real
power to that. And theindividuals underneath them who
might need that support.
Cyn Sweeney (10:38):
Takes me back to the Vidal Sassoon, you know,
they told two friends and theytold two friends and so on and
so on. And you know, I thinklike every conversation is so
important because it createsthat space and that narrative to
have someone take that forwardand continue the conversation
and find the words to be havingthese important conversations.
(10:58):
And so whether you're reaching70 that exponentially goes out
or you're reaching one personthat could have an influence on
one other person, it's keepingthat momentum going. If we're
not talking about it, we're notchanging. We're not breaking
down barriers.
Yeah. What an honor.
Isaac Cook (11:23):
So you described yourself I know you mentioned
before you don't use socialmedia too much, but on LinkedIn,
you did describe yourself as anumbers person. So I was just
really curious if there's anysignificant numbers when it
comes to trans and non binaryinclusion in Canada that stand
out to you the most. Or perhapsmaybe on the flip side, are
there any numbers or statisticsor metrics that we don't have
(11:45):
that you wish we did?
Terri McDowell (11:47):
Yeah. So most of the most of the statistics that
I and and, again, statisticsvary, of course, Isaac. I mean,
it depends on the source. Itdepends on the bias of the
sample. It depends upon thepurpose of the census taker, if
you will, and all the rest ofit.
So I'm very sensitive to that.Take the numbers for what they
are. It would be the caveat Iwould put around anything that I
(12:10):
say in this regard. I'd also saythat I find the statistics on a
Canada only basis to be kind ofwanting. It's very difficult to
find a lot of Canada onlystatistics on transgender
community in particular, wherewe're represented, what it looks
like across the country, urbanrural splits, etcetera.
(12:31):
It kind of goes without saying,as a member of the constituency,
we are everywhere. I mean, wealways have been, we always will
be. And unfortunately, when Ithink about statistics and when
I think about numbers, they'rekind of on the horrific side
that come to mind. I mean, we'vejust seen this tremendous
explosion in anti LGBTQlegislation across North
(12:55):
America. I first started talkingabout this maybe just three
years ago, and at that point,you know, you could say that at
various levels of government,there was maybe a 100 bills that
were progressing.
We're just into the start of2023, and that number is triple.
It's it's now almost 300 antiLGBTQ pieces of legislation that
(13:16):
are advancing through variouslevels of government, whether
that's local government at theschool board levels, whether
that's state level in in The US,or whether it's it's, in some
cases, even federal that'sstarting to be talked about or
advanced. You know, that thatnumber is truly scary,
particularly when you look atthe disproportionate number of
(13:37):
those bills overall tolegislative agendas. And then
when you look at the number ofthose bills that are
specifically targeted at thetransgender community, it's
truly horrifying. Again,statistics vary, of course, but
the statistic I see publishedthe most or suggested the most
is, you know, the transgendercommunities, maybe three percent
(13:57):
of the general population atmost.
And when you then look at thedisproportionate cost, the
disproportionate effort, thedisproportionate legislative
push that is going on right now,you know that there's more at
stake here. It is human rightsat its core. It's basic human
(14:18):
rights. The motivation to stripaffirming health care away from
the community, the inability forpeople to get proper educations
as a result of segregations inthe schools that are being
enforced. And, you know, thatcascades into suicidal ideation.
Let's be completely harsh withwhere it leads, particularly for
(14:38):
vulnerable personalities thatare, you know, just coming to
grips with their own sense ofself in their teens, preteens,
or, you know, throughoutthroughout their their journey,
whenever that is. So it is ascary time. It is an inflection
point. Just last week, Oklahomaintroduced anti trans
(14:59):
legislation at their statesenate level, which is going to
deny gender affirming care toanyone under the age of 26. So
we're not talking minors, we'renot talking children, know,
we're now talking adults.
So individuals who can serve inthe military, individuals who
can vote, individuals who can domost things you would expect of
(15:23):
adults. And now they're sayingyou cannot go to a doctor to
discuss your gender. And I mean,that's as scary as it comes. It
is being advanced at the statelegislature. Only, that's
Oklahoma.
You you could say, well, that'sa long ways from here. It's not,
it spills over very rapidly.We've already seen that. It just
(15:44):
takes one to kind of put it outthere. And so that legislation
needs to be stopped.
It needs to be called out. And alot of the legislation has been
around. We need to protect kids.That's been the message that
they wrapped it up into. Now thecurtain is down.
This has never been about kids.This is about hate. This is
about discrimination. And thisis about a far right agenda to
(16:08):
try to stop out a transexistence. And that will never
happen.
We've always been here. Wealways will be here. That's just
not going to go away. It'shistorically proven. It's
scientifically proven.
So it shocks me that in this dayand age, people can set aside
science so easily.
Cyn Sweeney (16:26):
It's scary, like, when you think about that not in
my backyard as well, becauselike you said, there is that
idea of a trickling north overthe border. I think there was
recently some rollback even inOntario around a clinic that was
providing gender affirming care.I believe it's had to close its
doors, but there was lot ofthings happening around that.
(16:47):
And what I see through emailsfrom hard right organizations
that are kind of disguisingthemselves as sharing
information but really drivingthat fear. In a podcast recently
that I had heard, I think Isaacand I were chatting about it,
when they talk about trying tobuild a narrative around
detransitioning.
(17:08):
And we had a long conversationaround that in the idea of
talking about detransitioningand not really recognizing that
we're kind of all, everybody istransitioning all of the time.
So you're never reallydetransitioning. You're evolving
and you're moving forward. Andmaybe somebody might have
transitioned in a very binary inthe beginning and then found
(17:29):
that comfort space to sitsomewhere in non binary gender
fluid later on as well, which iscertainly not detransitioning.
It's a it's a continued growthof self.
And so that is it's a reallyscary rhetoric that, you know,
people that aren't informed whenthey hear that they think, you
know, some of this is is factualand it's really it's propaganda.
Terri McDowell (17:51):
Yeah. Mean, the detransitioning aspect is an
interesting one, of course, andit's been very high in the press
in the last month or so as wellwith some high profile
individuals in the community,you know, stating their intent
to detransition, etcetera. Butagain, because Isaac led me to
numbers, I mean, I do think youhave to talk math a little bit
(18:12):
around this. There's maybe threepercent of the population of
that, probably fifty percent orso choose to medically
transition one way or another.So now you're talking one and a
half percent of the population.
And when you really start totalk about de transitioning for
whatever reasons and underwhatever definitions, it falls
(18:33):
to something like 5% of that oneand a half percent that perhaps
entertain the idea of, hey, Iwant something different once
I've chosen a gender affirmingcare. So it becomes a very, very
small sliver of the population.And again, not to dismiss it at
all for all the reasons that yousaid, everybody's an individual.
I Everybody has their ownmotivations for how they
(18:57):
perceive, how they go throughlife, who they are. But again,
the disproportionate glomming onto those relatively rare stories
of true detransition postmedical transition.
Let's put it in its proper placeand time. Those are pretty
isolated incidents that occur.Again, not to denigrate them,
(19:17):
not to dismiss them, theycertainly happen. And most of us
that have been in community foras long as I have, for example,
you're going to become aware ofthat. But, you know, both from
more scientific basis and my ownpersonal experience, it's
extremely rare.
Isaac Cook (19:33):
Yeah. In my experiences, like also as a
trans person, I think a lot offolks even within the community,
they get very hung up on thedefinition of it. And I won't
harbor too long on it, but forinstance, to to one person
detransitioning could just beI'm no longer taking hormone
therapy or going through themedical side of it. For other
people, it could be that socialpart that they're, you know,
maybe going by a name orpronouns that more align with
(19:56):
their sexes assignment at birth.Like, there's so many different
aspects to it that we don'tthink about.
And to your point exactly,Terri, that it is very a very
small portion of the communitythat fall under that that
category and doesn't dismiss theexperience whatsoever. But it's
still it's it's always a thingthat the very right ideologies
(20:18):
like to grab onto and utilizeas, fuel for the fire.
Terri McDowell (20:23):
They choose not to want to hear the success
stories.
Cyn Sweeney (20:26):
It's so true. Can I just I was going to add just as
a parent, I've had the pleasureof supporting like we're
wholeheartedly support our childwho who transitioned at the age
of 10, but they weren't in aninclusive school, say in an
environment? They transitioned,but it was interesting for them,
watching at the very beginningwhen being assigned female at
(20:48):
birth and transitioning andchanging their name and their
hair and using their name andmasculine hehim pronouns. They
went sort of very, verymasculine. And there was a lot
of, you know, we witnessed sortof a lot of behaviors of
performing self in a way thatwas going to be acceptable to
the community that they were in.
(21:10):
And when they finally moved intoa school that was more accepting
and had representation fromwithin the community, we saw
this amazing blossoming of themjust really celebrating their
own sense of self and going morefluid. Now, they wear what they
want. They experiment withmakeup sometimes. They don't
(21:30):
feel like they have to fit intoa box that is to be approved by
somebody else. They arethemselves.
That's just one other example ofthe culture that you're in and
the space that you're in canreally define how one is able to
kind of show themselves to theworld and where they sit. And so
around transitioning, I wouldnever say that they've de
(21:53):
transitioned. They've continuedtheir transition to become more
free, which is beautiful to seeas a parent. If you don't give
your children the opportunity toshow themselves to the world,
then you're really limitingtheir opportunities. I'd be
(22:13):
curious, Teri, about yourselfthen transitioning.
So you graduated university, youwent straight to which I have to
say at the very beginning at theCDLCC Awards, was like, What is
I didn't know the acronym and Ididn't know if I was one of the
only ones, but of course I knowErnst Young and going to a
business like that. Did you goto Toronto right away and begin
(22:37):
there with And what point wereyou in your career when you
decided to transition whilebeing employed there?
Terri McDowell (22:48):
Yeah, so there's a lot wrapped up in that because
it is almost, as I say, it'sover a thirty five year career,
including a period of opentransition at work. So my
personal story, and again, thisis just my story, of course. I
mean, everyone has their ownindividual footprint of their
life history, but I've alwaysknown I was transgender. I mean,
(23:10):
like your child, since you justinherently knew, being of the
age that I am and the age that Igrew up in, I didn't have the
language around it. I didn'treally know what that meant.
And I also grew up in a veryrural area. I grew up in rural
Saskatchewan on a farm, so Ididn't have a lot of exposure to
it. My exposure to the transcommunity probably became more
(23:35):
formalized in my twenties, mymid twenties, I would suggest.
So I graduated from theUniversity of Saskatchewan and I
went to work for We were under adifferent name at that point.
Ernst and Young is the name now.
And I went to work for themright out of the university. So
that was 1985. And again, reallydidn't know the trans community.
(23:57):
I've been really fortunate in mylife that I've always had a few
people that understood me andgot me and were there for me.
And that goes all the way backto my twenties for sure.
So by my twenties, was able tokind of socially transition with
deep personal relationships to adegree with family, to a degree
(24:18):
with social relationships. Butmy professional environment was
different. Fairly conservativeenvironment, you know, financial
community, the Bay Street crowd,call it what you will. At that
point, was still in WesternCanada, smaller offices. And,
you know, I can even put it inthe context of grander gender
parity, if you will.
I, it was a very male dominatedculture at the time. I started
(24:42):
in Saskatchewan. I spent sometime in Calgary. My first office
that I was in, there was eightpartners, all white men. Moved
to a slightly larger office,maybe 20 partners, still all
white men.
I didn't know a female partnerin the firm until I moved to
Toronto in the 1990s. And atthat point it was maybe 5% of
(25:05):
the general population of thefirm. And I certainly didn't
know anyone who was knowinglyand visibly trans. So I had the
opportunity, as I said earlier,to move a lot with firm. And
that actually helped me on agender transition journey in the
workplace as well, because eachtime that I would show up at a
new office, I would be comingwith the skill set that got me
(25:28):
to the table, got me to theoffice, made me valuable to that
office.
I was allowed to present alittle differently. I was
allowed to explore a little moreaggressively. And so I think by
the time I was in my thirtiesand had become a close to
partner than made partner sortof thing, I was already
(25:48):
perceived as pretty genderfluid. I think that was also a
time when just gay rightsoverall in the workplace started
to become more common. Morepeople on, you know, again,
mostly gay men in the professionthat I worked with, a few
lesbians that had come out,again, very few trans people
that I knew of.
I knew of them in other forumsat that point, so I started to
(26:10):
realize, hey, this is actuallypossible. As early as the early
1990s, the intent had been get alittle bit financially
established and transition. Andback in the day, and it still
happens today, although I thinkit's increasingly difficult
today. Back then, the morecommon route was to go what we
call going stealth. And sosomeone would abandon their past
(26:34):
history as much as they could,leave their job, oftentimes lose
their families, lose that prioridentity, if you will, and then
transition socially, personally,sometimes medically, and emerge
in a new persona.
I did entertain that. I knewpeople who'd done it and I
thought about it, but I, it wasprobably career helped me back
(26:55):
as much as anything. I thoughtI'm pretty good at what I do. Do
I, you know, am I prepared tosacrifice all of that and why
should I have to? So that was,that was a little bit of a
moment, I think in the latenineties.
Was just a reevaluation of selfworth, to be honest, and
thinking I can do thisdifferently now. Definitely
respect why people do that, howthey do it. I would also
(27:17):
suggest, I think that's next toimpossible to do in today's day
and age. If you think back tothe 80s and 90s, we were in the
pre digital age. I think givenwhere we are now, everyone has a
digital footprint from the daythat they're born.
And so to truly go stealth,people are going find out your
history if they truly want toknow your history for whatever
reason. So I'm not sure it's abad thing. At the end of the
(27:40):
day, nobody should have to dothat in my mind. But that's a
very long winded answer to avery specific question. I'm
happy to talk more about the onthe workplace experience, if you
like.
I think that context isimportant.
Cyn Sweeney (27:56):
No, it's so important. And I think it must
have felt like in the beginning,isolating for you, not seeing
any other trans people or evenbroader members of the 2SLGBTQ
plus community working infinance and numbers, as you say,
on Bay Street.
Terri McDowell (28:13):
So now, I'm not alone anymore. Are other members
of the community who are quitevisible and have chosen to be
quite visible. And that's reallycomforting. You know, my own
experience, as I say, wasprobably perceived as gender
fluid for a very long period oftime leading up to just fully
(28:33):
adopting my gender in theworkplace. That was fairly
recent, 1738 is when I changedpronouns, for example,
officially at work, I'd alreadychanged legal IDs, etcetera.
But I grew up with a lot ofthese people professionally,
both partners, colleagues, butalso clients. And with due
(28:55):
respect to other members of thecommunity, I do think it's
different for a transgenderindividual than others. We are
extremely visible as we adopt,as we choose to embrace
ourselves. I think members ofthe gay community, members of
the lesbian community, they canchoose a little more in terms of
how much of themselves they wishto disclose in any given
(29:17):
environment. For those of usthat openly adopt transition,
it's not quite so easy.
You present differently, youdress differently, you are
addressed differently, etcetera.So that was a big personal
challenge, I would say, butprofessionally it felt like the
right thing to do.
Cyn Sweeney (29:35):
What were your biggest challenges then in
transitioning in the workplaceat that time, like with regards
to maybe policies or practicesthat were there? I'm thinking
maybe like with your transition,you probably really helped to
shape policies that might now bein place at Yeah,
Terri McDowell (29:50):
it was a little bit chicken and egg, to be
honest. Our organization, like alot of organizations, have
evolved so quickly on this frontin the last ten to fifteen years
that a lot of policies werealready in place. Things like
gender neutral bathrooms, forexample, had been instituted.
The ability to state your chosenpronouns goes back quite a
(30:12):
number of years. And I have beentold, I don't know this
empirically, that I'm the mostsenior person in the firm to
have openly transitioned on thejob.
We have others, of course, butI'm a partner and a fairly
senior partner. So definitelyI've had opportunities to get
more of an audience on certainthings, but also to help shape
(30:33):
what future policy should looklike. But one of the things that
we already had in place is ourpathways to transition medical
assistance programs. Sodepending where you are in North
America in particular, I am notas well versed outside of North
America on government programsnecessarily, but in a lot of
(30:54):
places in North America, genderaffirming care is not supported,
it's not insured, etcetera. Andso we do do that as an
organization.
Now we have enhanced thosebenefits considerably in the
last couple of years. And when Isay we, I'm speaking but I call
it the broader community. A lotof similar firms have done the
same thing. You know, if you goaround the major financial
(31:17):
institutions here in thecountry, you go to our direct
competitors in the financialadvisory firm. Virtually
everyone has those programs now.
To think of that fifteen yearsago, probably even ten years
ago, really was hardly onanyone's radar, let alone
thinking that, you know, we wantto be seen as leaders and that
this is important to our people.So let's get on board. And
(31:40):
despite all of my negativityearlier about anti trans
legislation, etcetera, there's alot of good things happening in
the broader community, includingthe corporate world. And those
strides are tremendous.
Isaac Cook (31:55):
Is all about connecting communities and
thanks to support from TD BankGroup,
Cyn Sweeney (31:59):
here is this episode's Connected Community
Moment.
Isaac Cook (32:02):
It's a new year and a new Menti word cloud. Hey Hey
Sis is all about shifting binarybarriers to inclusion and
building better humans oneconversation at a time. What is
an evolution, not a resolution,that you're aiming to do more or
shift in 2023 regarding being abetter human? Check out the link
in the show notes to share yourthoughts. Here's what Terri had
to say.
Terri McDowell (32:23):
This sounds incredibly pedantic, but I'll
say it anyway. I thinkrecognizing the importance of
basic kindness and living thatvalue is just so critical.
Kindness matters. And once youopen with kindness, lot of
things fall away very quickly.It's hard to confront.
It's hard to be aggressive. It'shard to be antagonistic when
(32:45):
you've got a receptive audienceas your counterparty and someone
who's an active listener,someone who's listening to you.
In a very broad sense, I wouldsay lead with kindness is my
goal.
Isaac Cook (32:58):
This has been a Jesus and TD Bank Group
Connected Communities momentbecause inclusion matters.
Cyn Sweeney (33:03):
It's inspiring when you're saying, Terri, that
there's so many differentfinancial institutions and
businesses that areimplementing. But I don't know
whether it's here on the EastCoast or not, but we still find
that there's still a lot ofcatch up. There's still
organizations where there'sstill, well, pronouns and having
an issue around pronouns and theidea of, well, it shouldn't
(33:25):
mandatory and where's the fineline? How do you invite people
to share the pronouns, notmaking it absolutely a must do?
And so I'd love to ask you alittle bit about that.
I'd also, while I have thethought in my mind, because I
have ADHD and if I don't say itwhen I think it, it'll just
disappear. The idea of, for newhires that are coming into your
(33:49):
business, because I find it soinspiring to know if you're
getting into this industry andyou're potentially thinking
about maybe your home isn'tsupportive or accepting, are
employers that can support yourtransition along the way. How do
new hires find that information?Because they might not think to
ask or they might like, isother, is it readily available?
(34:12):
Is that something that's part ofthe onboarding process and the
orientation for new hires?
Terri McDowell (34:16):
Yeah, hesitate to say that it's front and
center in the hiring process. Ithink a little bit of it is due
diligence on behalf ofcandidates as well. You don't
have to look very hard to findthe policies that our
organization and mostorganizations embrace. So I
certainly have a recommendationto any hire coming off campus,
(34:38):
for example, whether whetherthey're in community or not, you
know, do your homework, know whoyou're interviewing with as much
as the interviewer wants to knowwho you are. And that will
inform to a degree because I'malso not naive.
There's definitely businessesout there that all you have to
do is look at their website andgo, I am not going to fit here.
(34:59):
You know, the ideals are prettyclear. I won't name any of them
on this call, but, you know, Ithink in community they become
known very quickly. So, youknow, you look on a website, for
example, and you will find itnow. There's a big difference
between words and actions,definitely.
And, you know, I'm going topersonalize for a second. I
(35:22):
think that in part is whatprompted me to become more of an
advocate, more visible incommunity. I think visibility
matters. I go back to my ownexperience coming through the
system and again, in the contextof broader gender parity, it
took me a long time to findwomen in the border. Part of
(35:42):
that is where I started.
Part of that was the communitiesI grew up in. Part of that was
the profession that I chose. Itwas all of the above. So I knew
once I started to see moregender parity being embraced in
the workplace, I started to seemore of a glimmer that there is
a future here. Then I saw it inhorizontally.
(36:02):
Saw other organizations wherenot just women, but in some
cases trans individuals werebeing elevated, were on a good
career path. You start torealize the art of the possible.
You start to realize this ispossible. And so looking for
pioneers, if you will, lookingfor people who have carved the
course before was reallyimportant to me. Part of the
(36:25):
reason I choose to do thingslike this and make it known that
yes, I am a trans woman.
Yes, I work on Bay Street. Yes,this is the career that I've
had. Ideally in today's society,particularly with the younger
generation, you know, you don'thave to be so glacial about who
you are and disclosing all ofthat. It's encouraged. It's in
the workplace these days.
(36:46):
Employers want it as much as theindividual needs it. So I do
think there's a change there, inparticular, I go to the younger
generation. They've been a hugeinspiration for my journey in
terms of just pointing out,anyone who's kind of in
community already would have thelack of a better word read me
(37:07):
very easily for the last twentyfive years. Those who aren't
looking don't know what they'relooking for, maybe not kind of
thing. But as a result of that,I would increasingly have, you
know, younger people inparticular embracing the ideal
of having a senior partner atthe firm that would be fully
authentic themselves, allowingthem to be fully authentic.
(37:30):
So I do think that's reallyimportant. In terms of the
onboarding, the on campusrecruiting, I mean, you're not
going to get to that levelunless you've done your own
level of diligence to who theorganization is that you're
talking to, including our own.Just go on for another minute
here because it leads to anothertopic that we touched on
earlier, is this whole conceptof corporate rainbow washing.
(37:54):
It's very real. I mean, it's outthere.
I did a LinkedIn post on thisfor what it's worth back in June
and I didn't specificallyreference it as a rainbow
washing post, but that was theintent of it. And in its own
way, I think that speaks toprogress. I mean, if you go back
(38:16):
thirty five years, in my case,corporations were not embracing
the queer community at all. Soput the trans community aside,
they were not embracing it. Thatstarted to shift in the 90s into
the 2000s when we saw pridebecome more of a corporate
recognized event, etcetera.
And then, you know, did it gotoo far? Did everybody think
(38:38):
that they could plant the flagand claim inclusion? Absolutely.
But what it's done now is it'sheld organizations accountable.
And I think that by itself ishuge progress.
You're going to plant the flagin June, you better live the
values the other eleven monthsof the year. It's not a one week
of the year opportunity tocapitalize. It's a commitment
(39:00):
that you make to the community.And if you're not making that
community, the community has aright to call you out. Just like
I think the community has theresponsibility to recognize
those that are truly living thevalues.
I think it, you know, we have tohave it both ways. We can't
always be the defiant ones. Wecan't always be screaming
injustice because there's a lotof good things happening out
(39:20):
there too, and those need to beapplauded.
Isaac Cook (39:22):
I love that. I'm sitting here clapping on mute
and everything like that becauseI think so many folks don't
recognize that, you know, yes,you can celebrate pride that one
month or one week, one day ofthe year, but it's exactly to
your point. It is a twelvemonth, 03/1965, seven days a
week commitment that you aregoing to provide individuals
(39:47):
within your community the mostinclusive, equitable, and
diverse environment that theycan possibly live in so that
they can thrive. And everyone'sgonna make mistakes, and I and I
think, you know, it's it'srealistic to understand that,
yes, people are going to makemistakes, but as you said, we
need to hold each otheraccountable to those mistakes.
And if they're, you know,severe, that we need to be able
(40:09):
to have open dialogue aroundthat.
So I I I appreciate that commentimmensely.
Terri McDowell (40:13):
Yeah. Wonderful. I mean, I will, again, step into
personal experience for a momenthere in my own kind of, for lack
of better word, coming out storyat the firm. And when I made the
wholehearted decision to be myfull self each and every day as
I came through the doors, youknow, that was a scary moment
regardless of seniority,regardless of career, etcetera.
(40:37):
The way it came about is, as Isay, I've always been really
fortunate that I've always had acouple of people close to me
that knew me, read me, whateveryou want, and just got it.
And here in Toronto, one of mycolleagues was, who was fairly
new to me. There's a lot ofpeople I now work with that I
hadn't known earlier in mycareer. And this individual
(40:59):
invited me out, we were havingcoffee and they said to me,
you're a transgender woman, butyou don't really fully embrace
that when you come into work,although most people read you as
either a transgender woman orgenderfluid. And she said, why
is that? And when I left thatconversation, I thought, I can't
answer that.
I don't have an answer for thatat this point. And so that made
(41:22):
me immediately realize, Hey,there's steps I can take here.
So I had the opportunity. Again,I recognized my point of
privilege, recognized where Iwas, I'm fairly senior in the
organization, so I was able toimmediately secure meetings with
our top executives, includingour chairperson. And every one
(41:43):
of them without any prompting,they didn't know what the
meeting was necessarily aboutwhen I got on their calendar,
each and every one of them to aperson said, how can we help?
And you know, that was anamazing relief for me. It was
really telling and I mean that'smy story. I know that there's
(42:04):
some that don't go that way.There's probably an unfortunate
number that don't go that way.But now talking to others, I
know that others have had thatexperience in their own
organizations.
So I like to be a glass halffull kind of person and the
world has shifted so much over,you know, my thirty five plus
year working career.
Cyn Sweeney (42:24):
That statement, how can we help? How can we help? It
just sets up the platform. We'reready to listen. We're here.
We want to support. Fororganizations out there that
might be like, Okay, well, prideis easy. It's easy. We know what
(42:45):
to do. We can put a float in orwe can raise the flag.
Maybe it's just not knowingwhere to start. What are some
tips that you might recommend onhow organizations can be
inclusive or embracing thecommunity the other eleven
months of the year?
Terri McDowell (43:04):
Yeah, I think there's and this is not
necessarily limited to theworkplace. Think there's some
very basic things about, youknow, lack of assumption is
always a good place to start. Ifyou meet a relatively, I'll use
the term, a feminine male, I wasperceived as one for many, many
(43:25):
years kind of thing. You know,don't necessarily assume who
that individual is. You've gotto get to know them.
Similarly, if you meet a moremasculine, cisgendered female
kind of thing, don't make thoseassumptions. So the use of
gender neutral pronouns isimportant. They reference to
partners as opposed to what didyou and your husband slash wife
(43:47):
do this weekend? That type ofthing. I think people are a lot
more averse in that than theyonce were.
But again, I go back to my timeand that was the common
question, you know, what did youand your girlfriend? What did
you and your wife do in themoment? And then you're tap
dancing around, you know, howyou describe yourself to others
(44:07):
and, you know, who your partneris and and things of that
nature. And again, that that'sshared across the queer
community. I'm I'm I'm wellaware.
So but again, I think wearingthe pin doesn't hurt either. You
know, that it's just wearing thepin or putting it in your email
address, rainbow flag, itsignals to people this is a safe
space. That's incrediblyimportant to people. And it's
(44:31):
not that hard. You know, anyonecan slap on a pin, anyone can
put it in their can put it intheir label.
Now, flip side of that is, ifyou're going to identify as an
ally or an advocate, or if youare an ally or an advocate, it
goes back to, don't advocatewhen we're in the room, we need
you more when we're not in theroom. You know, we need to know
(44:52):
what's being said and you needto stand up for us when we're
not there to do it forourselves. It's easy to be a
hero in the moment kind of thingthat, you know, heroes are the
heroes that do it when no one'slooking kind of thing. Just
instilling that from the topdown is, is so critical and
can't enforce it. You know,people would have to get it into
(45:14):
their own DNA.
That's the thing. But boy, youcan certainly set corporate
culture in a heartbeat by whatcomes out of the c suite.
Isaac Cook (45:22):
I'm still over here clapping, and it is so true,
though, that that whole trickledown effect really can help
change an organization. And Iknow we only have a couple
minutes left here, but I didjust want to quickly ask, kind
of on the flip side of ofCyndi's questions, but I guess a
little bit more personal. Youknow, as someone in a position
of authority in an organization,when there is someone in the
(45:44):
workplace struggling train totransition or struggling to come
out, Can you maybe provide someexamples of either ways that
you've done it or ways thatyou've seen that support kind of
in the professional or businessenvironment?
Terri McDowell (45:56):
I'll I'll try, Isaac, again, as anyone
listening to this and as youundoubtedly know, this is such a
personal journey for everyone,right? So how they choose to
embrace it, what they'renecessarily seeking for
validation, confirmation,affirmation, differs very widely
(46:17):
across, we're all individuals.Of course, we differ from one
another, right? But there's acouple of things that we've done
as an organization that I thinkhave helped. One is we have a
team's network.
Have a gender identity. Nowwe're a big organization, I
realize that. It's not like onesize fits all here.
Cyn Sweeney (46:37):
Is it like an ERG, like an employee resource group?
Terri McDowell (46:39):
Yeah. So we have an ERG, but we then even have a
more specific one for the transcommunity, which is just a trans
channel. And this is availablefor employees, it's available to
parents, or it's available toallies to a degree. And, you
know, I've connected with a lotof people, a lot, it's still a
(47:02):
small community within ourorganization, like most
organizations, but that channelhas served very well where
people get to know who is incommunity and they can reach
out. And frankly, mostly whoI've talked to through that
channel, there's been a coupleof employees that have either
come out and are facing specificissues or alternatively are
coming out in their journey.
(47:23):
But more often, it's parents.It's parents that are employees
of ours or partners of ours orworking with us. And I've met,
one experience I had was apartner that I had worked very
closely with for years andunbeknownst to me had a trans
child. And, I, you know, I did awebcast years later after we
(47:46):
were no longer physically in thesame location. And I did a
webcast internally and he calledafterwards and said, I just want
you to know, I watched this withmy daughter and, you know, she's
14, she's going through it.
And I did this as a result of, Iwanted her to know what
possibilities that, you know,it's not about survival, it's
(48:07):
about thriving. And you canprobably tell, I mean, that one
brought tears. That was a hardmoment of the importance of
being visible. All of thosethings to the extent you're in
an organization that canfacilitate it, that you have the
critical mass to do it,etcetera, are important. Other
ways, again, my experience is myexperience and mine alone, but
(48:33):
to the extent you are in theprivileged position that I am
and have the ability to bevisible, it allows people to
know the art of the possibleagain.
Cyn Sweeney (48:42):
You're a role model. I mean, really, you are a
role model. And I wonder then atthis, you know, who would you
look to? Who would you say is arole model of yours? Do you have
anyone off the top of your mindthat you might be able to?
Terri McDowell (48:56):
Yeah, there's definitely a few out there. It
was very difficult because of myage and my generation to find
trans role models in theprofessional community, for
example. Certainly, there wasindividuals in the public eye
that would come forth, mostlyyou would find them in
(49:17):
communities that I didn'tnecessarily directly relate to,
performing arts, theater, it wason screen, etcetera, valuable in
terms of just seeing thevisibility of the trans
community. But the oneindividual who I won't go by
name, because it would probablybe lost to most people, but we
had a senior gay woman executivewho came out in the firm during
(49:42):
her career, and she was a hugeinfluence on me recognizing this
is possible. And as she learnedmore of my story and the fact
that I wasn't totally out, but Iwas largely out kind of thing,
she made the comment to me thatif I was ready, she said to me,
she said this could save lives.
(50:02):
And I dismissed it, to behonest. I said, I'm a tax
partner. I mean, what do youmean? And she instilled in me
the visibility matters. And shetalked about, as you were going
through the system, Terri, youdidn't have role models.
How many times were you close toquitting? How many times did you
think I can do this easier? Andso to the extent I have heroes,
(50:27):
she would be one of them. Thatwas an amazing discussion to
have. The fact that the seniorperson took the time to invest
in me and point out what mypotential could potentially be
in this regard.
That was a moment of truth forme, think. Thought I'd always
been open to a point, had alwaysbeen truly supportive of the
(50:50):
community in various ways,etcetera, but I was starting to
feel increasingly hypocriticalby not being myself on a daily
basis.
Cyn Sweeney (50:58):
Well, thank you so much, Terri. I've literally had
shivers for some of the thingsthat you've said. It's so
important and valuable, and it'sbeen a great conversation. We
hope that we can have you backon the show sometime.
Terri McDowell (51:09):
I'd be pleased to do it. Thanks for having me,
Cyn, and likewise, you've been ahuge inspiration getting to know
you. I mean, parents likeyourself are absolutely
invaluable. Thank you for havingme.
Cyn Sweeney (51:21):
Okay. Well, you.
Terri McDowell (51:23):
Okay. Take care.
Cyn Sweeney (51:24):
That's all the time we have today, folks. Thank you
for joining us for anotherepisode of Hey Sis.
Isaac Cook (51:30):
The conversation doesn't have to stop here
though. If you would like to getin touch with us to ask us a
question or share your story ona future episode, you can email
us at connectsimplygoodform dotcom or visit us on our website
at www.haces.com.
Hey, Cis! From coast to coast, we're bridging the gap
between the cisgender andtransgender community, creating
meaningful dialogue and space tolearn and grow.
Cyn Sweeney (00:11):
Join us as we connect with our community,
break down tough conversations,and get comfortable being better
humans. Happy 2023 and welcometo Hey Sis. Thank you so much
for joining us for anotherincredible year. We would have
(00:34):
never thought back in October oftwenty twenty when we first
kicked it off that this journeywould bring us to where we are
today, halfway through seasonthree.
Isaac Cook (00:44):
And this time of the year, everyone is talking about
New Year's resolutions. Buthowever, here at Simply Good
Form, we're big fans of thephrase evolution instead,
because as we all know, growingis always a journey and not a
one and done situation. So thismonth, we wanna take a quick
second to highlight some up andcoming and interesting LGBTQ
(01:04):
plus news. Stranger Things starNoah Schnapp says he's, quote,
unquote, more similar to his onscreen character than he
thought. CNN Entertainmentreports that Noah shared a
TikTok video on January 5 inwhich he identifies self as gay.
The text on screen in the videoreads, when I finally told my
(01:25):
friends and family I was gayafter being scared in the closet
for eighteen years, they allsaid, we know.
Cyn Sweeney (01:30):
I love that. I love that so much because it really
does give representation,doesn't it, to those that are
living maybe in a rural areathat don't have a lot of
representation. I know I'vewatched all of Stranger Things
and I loved it, but the onlyreason I had gotten into it was
because of my kids. So I knowit's huge with younger
generations. More visibility isand representation is awesome.
Isaac Cook (01:53):
Well, yeah, and as you said, that's the biggest
thing, especially forindividuals in rural or smaller
communities where they don'thave anyone around them that
identifies as to as LGBTQ plus.So it's nice to see folks on the
big screen who also identify andthat we can. Represent ourselves
and relate to
Cyn Sweeney (02:09):
in other news. Just looking at what's been going on
around the world, I think justbefore just before the Christmas
break there, Scotland hadintroduced some new legislation
that could help, I guess,simplify the gender marker and
name change, making it moreaccessible. It looked like the
headline I saw was that transactivists are blasting the Tory
(02:31):
government in England becausethey're looking at maybe doing
some reform, which might meanthat they're not going to
recognise and help to support inEngland and Wales the great
moves that Scotland is lookingat trying to make accessibility
of gender affirming socialtransition, like changing your
name and your gender marker,more accessible. So it's
(02:52):
something that is worth watchingthat space and seeing what's
happening, especially as we lookto help simplify name changes
and gender markers here with thenew program we're going to be
developing with the MentalHealth Foundation of Nova Scotia
in 2023, just to help helppeople make it a little bit
simpler to get the paperworkthat you need and and then to
(03:12):
actually get someone to helpsign it at not an exuberant
cost.
Isaac Cook (03:17):
Yeah, and so many folks don't realize how
strenuous that process was. Youknow, it's been, oh, almost a
decade now since I changed myname, and the process has
changed some for the good, somefor the worse. So, you know,
learning to to navigate thatsystem is never the easiest,
(03:37):
especially in in these types ofareas. Now today, Cyndi and I
are joined by a very specialTerri McDowell. Terri, sheher,
is an active advocate for LGBTQplus rights in North America and
around the globe.
(03:58):
She has spoken in a variety offorums on her business rationale
and societal importance of DEIinitiatives in the workplace.
Terri is a strong believer thatvisibility matters. As a trans
woman herself and a highlyregarded professional in the
financial community, Teribelieves in the importance of
recognizing that transgenderindividuals exist across the
globe, careers, and acrosssociety. Welcome to Hey Cis,
(04:21):
Terri.
Terri McDowell (04:21):
Hello. Thanks for having me.
Isaac Cook (04:24):
Thank you so much for joining us today. It's great
pleasure to have you here. Solet's kick things first off with
a kind of, hey, sis classicicebreaker. Where are you from?
Where do you call home?
And perhaps can you share alittle bit about your coming out
story?
Terri McDowell (04:40):
Sure. I'm happy to dive into that personal
history. So my name's TerriMcDowell, pronouns are she and
her. I'm actually born andraised in Saskatchewan. So I'm
Canadian by birth and born andraised out West.
I have lived in a number ofplaces over the course of a very
(05:01):
long professional career. I am apartner with a firm here called
Ernst and Young, which is afinancial advisory firm
principally. I'm a tax partner.I principally work in the area
of mergers and acquisitions,international finance, that type
of thing. I've been with thefirm for a very long time, so
(05:22):
well over thirty five years now.
Kind of pains me to say that. Icurrently reside and call
Toronto home. This is actuallythe third time that I've lived
in Toronto. I lived here in thenineties. I went abroad and came
back in the February, wentabroad again, and came back to
Toronto in 2019.
(05:42):
I have also had the opportunityto work in New York City, for a
total of fifteen years. I wasthere twice. I have lived and
worked out of Miami, and I'velived and worked around Western
Canada earlier in my career. Iam also a transgender woman, and
I did go through my own personalgender transition on the job
(06:05):
here here at I have been withever since I graduated from the
University of Saskatchewan backin the nineteen eighties. So
that's the the quick bio on onwho I am and how I ended up in
Toronto and a little bit of whatit's like to to transition in
your job and on the job and withthe same organization.
(06:28):
So I'm happy to share my ownexperience because it's quite a
good one, to be honest.
Cyn Sweeney (06:33):
Thank you so much for sharing a little bit about
your background. And I love likehow vast it is geographically. I
met Teri at the CGLCC Awards inNovember, and it was just such a
pleasure to talk to you thereand see you up on stage and be
(06:53):
recognized as the CGLCC LGBTQplus Business Leader of the
Year. That must have felt prettyexciting for you.
Terri McDowell (07:03):
Yeah, it definitely was, As you would
have heard, because you werethere in person, I would suggest
there's a lot more activeadvocates in the public forum
than perhaps myself. My personaladvocacy approach has been more
by living visibly and making itclear where the transgender
(07:26):
community fits in the broadersociety, trying to be as visible
as possible. I think visibilitytruly matters to our community.
So that was a big part of it. Myhistory with the CGLCC goes back
a couple of years now.
As I said, I moved back toToronto in 2019, and that's when
I really kind of got exposed tothe organization, learned who
(07:47):
they were and the tremendouswork that they actually do in
connecting the community. And Ihad the opportunity to work with
them a couple of times, one ofthe more recent ones being in
2021, when they in conjunctionwith the UN, in conjunction with
the World Economic Forum, theydid a symposium and a panel on
(08:09):
the UN's anti discriminationstandards and in particular
engaged me to work on a panelfor anti discrimination in the
workplace. And I would suggestfor from an advocacy viewpoint,
that was perhaps a breakthroughmoment for me in terms of just
the importance to it. I, youknow, I've never downplayed the
(08:30):
importance of advocacy, but Ithink that really resonated with
me, what we can all kind of doon a personal individual front.
And, you know, the the quickanecdote that I would give there
is the the session we did, ofwhich I was part of the panel,
it was an in camera session, sopeople were anonymous, if you
(08:53):
will.
But we had 70 c suite leadersfrom around the world, and these
were CEOs or top executives, andthe tech companies were well
represented, the banks were wellrepresented, but there's only 70
there. And I know after thepanel was done, I was speaking
with one of my fellow panelists.And I said, said, yeah, that,
you know, I really enjoyed that.That was good. And there was
(09:14):
only 70.
But her comment to me, whichreally resonated is she said,
Terri, to a degree, you'remissing the point. There were 70
people in the room. But when youthink about the constituency
that they represent, theyrepresented hundreds of
thousands, in fact, ofemployees. And we had the right
level of person to hear themessage and take the message
(09:35):
forward. So that really did kindof resonate with me.
And as I say, that's prettyrecent. That just kind of hit me
in the last couple of years ofthe impact you can have when
you're given the honor andprivilege of having a platform
to speak to. Much like thesewebcasts, you never know who's
listening. You never know whoit's going to resonate the most
with and and what good can comeout of it.
Isaac Cook (09:56):
Yeah. Absolutely. I think for me too, like one of
the most underappreciated formsof advocacy is first and
foremost living your trueauthentic self. And, you know,
just because you're not usingsocial media every single day
and being in those spaces, thatdoesn't mean you aren't
advocating. But second thing isthat advocacy and inclusion for
(10:18):
me at least, it's a very topdown when it comes to the
workplace and that if theindividuals who are at the C
Suite don't get it, then thoseunderneath them won't also
follow suit.
To your point exactly, you know,those 70 folks that were in the
room, yes, there was only 70,but you know, there's real, real
power to that. And theindividuals underneath them who
might need that support.
Cyn Sweeney (10:38):
Takes me back to the Vidal Sassoon, you know,
they told two friends and theytold two friends and so on and
so on. And you know, I thinklike every conversation is so
important because it createsthat space and that narrative to
have someone take that forwardand continue the conversation
and find the words to be havingthese important conversations.
(10:58):
And so whether you're reaching70 that exponentially goes out
or you're reaching one personthat could have an influence on
one other person, it's keepingthat momentum going. If we're
not talking about it, we're notchanging. We're not breaking
down barriers.
Yeah. What an honor.
Isaac Cook (11:23):
So you described yourself I know you mentioned
before you don't use socialmedia too much, but on LinkedIn,
you did describe yourself as anumbers person. So I was just
really curious if there's anysignificant numbers when it
comes to trans and non binaryinclusion in Canada that stand
out to you the most. Or perhapsmaybe on the flip side, are
there any numbers or statisticsor metrics that we don't have
(11:45):
that you wish we did?
Terri McDowell (11:47):
Yeah. So most of the most of the statistics that
I and and, again, statisticsvary, of course, Isaac. I mean,
it depends on the source. Itdepends on the bias of the
sample. It depends upon thepurpose of the census taker, if
you will, and all the rest ofit.
So I'm very sensitive to that.Take the numbers for what they
are. It would be the caveat Iwould put around anything that I
(12:10):
say in this regard. I'd also saythat I find the statistics on a
Canada only basis to be kind ofwanting. It's very difficult to
find a lot of Canada onlystatistics on transgender
community in particular, wherewe're represented, what it looks
like across the country, urbanrural splits, etcetera.
(12:31):
It kind of goes without saying,as a member of the constituency,
we are everywhere. I mean, wealways have been, we always will
be. And unfortunately, when Ithink about statistics and when
I think about numbers, they'rekind of on the horrific side
that come to mind. I mean, we'vejust seen this tremendous
explosion in anti LGBTQlegislation across North
(12:55):
America. I first started talkingabout this maybe just three
years ago, and at that point,you know, you could say that at
various levels of government,there was maybe a 100 bills that
were progressing.
We're just into the start of2023, and that number is triple.
It's it's now almost 300 antiLGBTQ pieces of legislation that
(13:16):
are advancing through variouslevels of government, whether
that's local government at theschool board levels, whether
that's state level in in The US,or whether it's it's, in some
cases, even federal that'sstarting to be talked about or
advanced. You know, that thatnumber is truly scary,
particularly when you look atthe disproportionate number of
(13:37):
those bills overall tolegislative agendas. And then
when you look at the number ofthose bills that are
specifically targeted at thetransgender community, it's
truly horrifying. Again,statistics vary, of course, but
the statistic I see publishedthe most or suggested the most
is, you know, the transgendercommunities, maybe three percent
(13:57):
of the general population atmost.
And when you then look at thedisproportionate cost, the
disproportionate effort, thedisproportionate legislative
push that is going on right now,you know that there's more at
stake here. It is human rightsat its core. It's basic human
(14:18):
rights. The motivation to stripaffirming health care away from
the community, the inability forpeople to get proper educations
as a result of segregations inthe schools that are being
enforced. And, you know, thatcascades into suicidal ideation.
Let's be completely harsh withwhere it leads, particularly for
(14:38):
vulnerable personalities thatare, you know, just coming to
grips with their own sense ofself in their teens, preteens,
or, you know, throughoutthroughout their their journey,
whenever that is. So it is ascary time. It is an inflection
point. Just last week, Oklahomaintroduced anti trans
(14:59):
legislation at their statesenate level, which is going to
deny gender affirming care toanyone under the age of 26. So
we're not talking minors, we'renot talking children, know,
we're now talking adults.
So individuals who can serve inthe military, individuals who
can vote, individuals who can domost things you would expect of
(15:23):
adults. And now they're sayingyou cannot go to a doctor to
discuss your gender. And I mean,that's as scary as it comes. It
is being advanced at the statelegislature. Only, that's
Oklahoma.
You you could say, well, that'sa long ways from here. It's not,
it spills over very rapidly.We've already seen that. It just
(15:44):
takes one to kind of put it outthere. And so that legislation
needs to be stopped.
It needs to be called out. And alot of the legislation has been
around. We need to protect kids.That's been the message that
they wrapped it up into. Now thecurtain is down.
This has never been about kids.This is about hate. This is
about discrimination. And thisis about a far right agenda to
(16:08):
try to stop out a transexistence. And that will never
happen.
We've always been here. Wealways will be here. That's just
not going to go away. It'shistorically proven. It's
scientifically proven.
So it shocks me that in this dayand age, people can set aside
science so easily.
Cyn Sweeney (16:26):
It's scary, like, when you think about that not in
my backyard as well, becauselike you said, there is that
idea of a trickling north overthe border. I think there was
recently some rollback even inOntario around a clinic that was
providing gender affirming care.I believe it's had to close its
doors, but there was lot ofthings happening around that.
(16:47):
And what I see through emailsfrom hard right organizations
that are kind of disguisingthemselves as sharing
information but really drivingthat fear. In a podcast recently
that I had heard, I think Isaacand I were chatting about it,
when they talk about trying tobuild a narrative around
detransitioning.
(17:08):
And we had a long conversationaround that in the idea of
talking about detransitioningand not really recognizing that
we're kind of all, everybody istransitioning all of the time.
So you're never reallydetransitioning. You're evolving
and you're moving forward. Andmaybe somebody might have
transitioned in a very binary inthe beginning and then found
(17:29):
that comfort space to sitsomewhere in non binary gender
fluid later on as well, which iscertainly not detransitioning.
It's a it's a continued growthof self.
And so that is it's a reallyscary rhetoric that, you know,
people that aren't informed whenthey hear that they think, you
know, some of this is is factualand it's really it's propaganda.
Terri McDowell (17:51):
Yeah. Mean, the detransitioning aspect is an
interesting one, of course, andit's been very high in the press
in the last month or so as wellwith some high profile
individuals in the community,you know, stating their intent
to detransition, etcetera. Butagain, because Isaac led me to
numbers, I mean, I do think youhave to talk math a little bit
(18:12):
around this. There's maybe threepercent of the population of
that, probably fifty percent orso choose to medically
transition one way or another.So now you're talking one and a
half percent of the population.
And when you really start totalk about de transitioning for
whatever reasons and underwhatever definitions, it falls
(18:33):
to something like 5% of that oneand a half percent that perhaps
entertain the idea of, hey, Iwant something different once
I've chosen a gender affirmingcare. So it becomes a very, very
small sliver of the population.And again, not to dismiss it at
all for all the reasons that yousaid, everybody's an individual.
I Everybody has their ownmotivations for how they
(18:57):
perceive, how they go throughlife, who they are. But again,
the disproportionate glomming onto those relatively rare stories
of true detransition postmedical transition.
Let's put it in its proper placeand time. Those are pretty
isolated incidents that occur.Again, not to denigrate them,
(19:17):
not to dismiss them, theycertainly happen. And most of us
that have been in community foras long as I have, for example,
you're going to become aware ofthat. But, you know, both from
more scientific basis and my ownpersonal experience, it's
extremely rare.
Isaac Cook (19:33):
Yeah. In my experiences, like also as a
trans person, I think a lot offolks even within the community,
they get very hung up on thedefinition of it. And I won't
harbor too long on it, but forinstance, to to one person
detransitioning could just beI'm no longer taking hormone
therapy or going through themedical side of it. For other
people, it could be that socialpart that they're, you know,
maybe going by a name orpronouns that more align with
(19:56):
their sexes assignment at birth.Like, there's so many different
aspects to it that we don'tthink about.
And to your point exactly,Terri, that it is very a very
small portion of the communitythat fall under that that
category and doesn't dismiss theexperience whatsoever. But it's
still it's it's always a thingthat the very right ideologies
(20:18):
like to grab onto and utilizeas, fuel for the fire.
Terri McDowell (20:23):
They choose not to want to hear the success
stories.
Cyn Sweeney (20:26):
It's so true. Can I just I was going to add just as
a parent, I've had the pleasureof supporting like we're
wholeheartedly support our childwho who transitioned at the age
of 10, but they weren't in aninclusive school, say in an
environment? They transitioned,but it was interesting for them,
watching at the very beginningwhen being assigned female at
(20:48):
birth and transitioning andchanging their name and their
hair and using their name andmasculine hehim pronouns. They
went sort of very, verymasculine. And there was a lot
of, you know, we witnessed sortof a lot of behaviors of
performing self in a way thatwas going to be acceptable to
the community that they were in.
(21:10):
And when they finally moved intoa school that was more accepting
and had representation fromwithin the community, we saw
this amazing blossoming of themjust really celebrating their
own sense of self and going morefluid. Now, they wear what they
want. They experiment withmakeup sometimes. They don't
(21:30):
feel like they have to fit intoa box that is to be approved by
somebody else. They arethemselves.
That's just one other example ofthe culture that you're in and
the space that you're in canreally define how one is able to
kind of show themselves to theworld and where they sit. And so
around transitioning, I wouldnever say that they've de
(21:53):
transitioned. They've continuedtheir transition to become more
free, which is beautiful to seeas a parent. If you don't give
your children the opportunity toshow themselves to the world,
then you're really limitingtheir opportunities. I'd be
(22:13):
curious, Teri, about yourselfthen transitioning.
So you graduated university, youwent straight to which I have to
say at the very beginning at theCDLCC Awards, was like, What is
I didn't know the acronym and Ididn't know if I was one of the
only ones, but of course I knowErnst Young and going to a
business like that. Did you goto Toronto right away and begin
(22:37):
there with And what point wereyou in your career when you
decided to transition whilebeing employed there?
Terri McDowell (22:48):
Yeah, so there's a lot wrapped up in that because
it is almost, as I say, it'sover a thirty five year career,
including a period of opentransition at work. So my
personal story, and again, thisis just my story, of course. I
mean, everyone has their ownindividual footprint of their
life history, but I've alwaysknown I was transgender. I mean,
(23:10):
like your child, since you justinherently knew, being of the
age that I am and the age that Igrew up in, I didn't have the
language around it. I didn'treally know what that meant.
And I also grew up in a veryrural area. I grew up in rural
Saskatchewan on a farm, so Ididn't have a lot of exposure to
it. My exposure to the transcommunity probably became more
(23:35):
formalized in my twenties, mymid twenties, I would suggest.
So I graduated from theUniversity of Saskatchewan and I
went to work for We were under adifferent name at that point.
Ernst and Young is the name now.
And I went to work for themright out of the university. So
that was 1985. And again, reallydidn't know the trans community.
(23:57):
I've been really fortunate in mylife that I've always had a few
people that understood me andgot me and were there for me.
And that goes all the way backto my twenties for sure.
So by my twenties, was able tokind of socially transition with
deep personal relationships to adegree with family, to a degree
(24:18):
with social relationships. Butmy professional environment was
different. Fairly conservativeenvironment, you know, financial
community, the Bay Street crowd,call it what you will. At that
point, was still in WesternCanada, smaller offices. And,
you know, I can even put it inthe context of grander gender
parity, if you will.
I, it was a very male dominatedculture at the time. I started
(24:42):
in Saskatchewan. I spent sometime in Calgary. My first office
that I was in, there was eightpartners, all white men. Moved
to a slightly larger office,maybe 20 partners, still all
white men.
I didn't know a female partnerin the firm until I moved to
Toronto in the 1990s. And atthat point it was maybe 5% of
(25:05):
the general population of thefirm. And I certainly didn't
know anyone who was knowinglyand visibly trans. So I had the
opportunity, as I said earlier,to move a lot with firm. And
that actually helped me on agender transition journey in the
workplace as well, because eachtime that I would show up at a
new office, I would be comingwith the skill set that got me
(25:28):
to the table, got me to theoffice, made me valuable to that
office.
I was allowed to present alittle differently. I was
allowed to explore a little moreaggressively. And so I think by
the time I was in my thirtiesand had become a close to
partner than made partner sortof thing, I was already
(25:48):
perceived as pretty genderfluid. I think that was also a
time when just gay rightsoverall in the workplace started
to become more common. Morepeople on, you know, again,
mostly gay men in the professionthat I worked with, a few
lesbians that had come out,again, very few trans people
that I knew of.
I knew of them in other forumsat that point, so I started to
(26:10):
realize, hey, this is actuallypossible. As early as the early
1990s, the intent had been get alittle bit financially
established and transition. Andback in the day, and it still
happens today, although I thinkit's increasingly difficult
today. Back then, the morecommon route was to go what we
call going stealth. And sosomeone would abandon their past
(26:34):
history as much as they could,leave their job, oftentimes lose
their families, lose that prioridentity, if you will, and then
transition socially, personally,sometimes medically, and emerge
in a new persona.
I did entertain that. I knewpeople who'd done it and I
thought about it, but I, it wasprobably career helped me back
(26:55):
as much as anything. I thoughtI'm pretty good at what I do. Do
I, you know, am I prepared tosacrifice all of that and why
should I have to? So that was,that was a little bit of a
moment, I think in the latenineties.
Was just a reevaluation of selfworth, to be honest, and
thinking I can do thisdifferently now. Definitely
respect why people do that, howthey do it. I would also
(27:17):
suggest, I think that's next toimpossible to do in today's day
and age. If you think back tothe 80s and 90s, we were in the
pre digital age. I think givenwhere we are now, everyone has a
digital footprint from the daythat they're born.
And so to truly go stealth,people are going find out your
history if they truly want toknow your history for whatever
reason. So I'm not sure it's abad thing. At the end of the
(27:40):
day, nobody should have to dothat in my mind. But that's a
very long winded answer to avery specific question. I'm
happy to talk more about the onthe workplace experience, if you
like.
I think that context isimportant.
Cyn Sweeney (27:56):
No, it's so important. And I think it must
have felt like in the beginning,isolating for you, not seeing
any other trans people or evenbroader members of the 2SLGBTQ
plus community working infinance and numbers, as you say,
on Bay Street.
Terri McDowell (28:13):
So now, I'm not alone anymore. Are other members
of the community who are quitevisible and have chosen to be
quite visible. And that's reallycomforting. You know, my own
experience, as I say, wasprobably perceived as gender
fluid for a very long period oftime leading up to just fully
(28:33):
adopting my gender in theworkplace. That was fairly
recent, 1738 is when I changedpronouns, for example,
officially at work, I'd alreadychanged legal IDs, etcetera.
But I grew up with a lot ofthese people professionally,
both partners, colleagues, butalso clients. And with due
(28:55):
respect to other members of thecommunity, I do think it's
different for a transgenderindividual than others. We are
extremely visible as we adopt,as we choose to embrace
ourselves. I think members ofthe gay community, members of
the lesbian community, they canchoose a little more in terms of
how much of themselves they wishto disclose in any given
(29:17):
environment. For those of usthat openly adopt transition,
it's not quite so easy.
You present differently, youdress differently, you are
addressed differently, etcetera.So that was a big personal
challenge, I would say, butprofessionally it felt like the
right thing to do.
Cyn Sweeney (29:35):
What were your biggest challenges then in
transitioning in the workplaceat that time, like with regards
to maybe policies or practicesthat were there? I'm thinking
maybe like with your transition,you probably really helped to
shape policies that might now bein place at Yeah,
Terri McDowell (29:50):
it was a little bit chicken and egg, to be
honest. Our organization, like alot of organizations, have
evolved so quickly on this frontin the last ten to fifteen years
that a lot of policies werealready in place. Things like
gender neutral bathrooms, forexample, had been instituted.
The ability to state your chosenpronouns goes back quite a
(30:12):
number of years. And I have beentold, I don't know this
empirically, that I'm the mostsenior person in the firm to
have openly transitioned on thejob.
We have others, of course, butI'm a partner and a fairly
senior partner. So definitelyI've had opportunities to get
more of an audience on certainthings, but also to help shape
(30:33):
what future policy should looklike. But one of the things that
we already had in place is ourpathways to transition medical
assistance programs. Sodepending where you are in North
America in particular, I am notas well versed outside of North
America on government programsnecessarily, but in a lot of
(30:54):
places in North America, genderaffirming care is not supported,
it's not insured, etcetera. Andso we do do that as an
organization.
Now we have enhanced thosebenefits considerably in the
last couple of years. And when Isay we, I'm speaking but I call
it the broader community. A lotof similar firms have done the
same thing. You know, if you goaround the major financial
(31:17):
institutions here in thecountry, you go to our direct
competitors in the financialadvisory firm. Virtually
everyone has those programs now.
To think of that fifteen yearsago, probably even ten years
ago, really was hardly onanyone's radar, let alone
thinking that, you know, we wantto be seen as leaders and that
this is important to our people.So let's get on board. And
(31:40):
despite all of my negativityearlier about anti trans
legislation, etcetera, there's alot of good things happening in
the broader community, includingthe corporate world. And those
strides are tremendous.
Isaac Cook (31:55):
Is all about connecting communities and
thanks to support from TD BankGroup,
Cyn Sweeney (31:59):
here is this episode's Connected Community
Moment.
Isaac Cook (32:02):
It's a new year and a new Menti word cloud. Hey Hey
Sis is all about shifting binarybarriers to inclusion and
building better humans oneconversation at a time. What is
an evolution, not a resolution,that you're aiming to do more or
shift in 2023 regarding being abetter human? Check out the link
in the show notes to share yourthoughts. Here's what Terri had
to say.
Terri McDowell (32:23):
This sounds incredibly pedantic, but I'll
say it anyway. I thinkrecognizing the importance of
basic kindness and living thatvalue is just so critical.
Kindness matters. And once youopen with kindness, lot of
things fall away very quickly.It's hard to confront.
It's hard to be aggressive. It'shard to be antagonistic when
(32:45):
you've got a receptive audienceas your counterparty and someone
who's an active listener,someone who's listening to you.
In a very broad sense, I wouldsay lead with kindness is my
goal.
Isaac Cook (32:58):
This has been a Jesus and TD Bank Group
Connected Communities momentbecause inclusion matters.
Cyn Sweeney (33:03):
It's inspiring when you're saying, Terri, that
there's so many differentfinancial institutions and
businesses that areimplementing. But I don't know
whether it's here on the EastCoast or not, but we still find
that there's still a lot ofcatch up. There's still
organizations where there'sstill, well, pronouns and having
an issue around pronouns and theidea of, well, it shouldn't
(33:25):
mandatory and where's the fineline? How do you invite people
to share the pronouns, notmaking it absolutely a must do?
And so I'd love to ask you alittle bit about that.
I'd also, while I have thethought in my mind, because I
have ADHD and if I don't say itwhen I think it, it'll just
disappear. The idea of, for newhires that are coming into your
(33:49):
business, because I find it soinspiring to know if you're
getting into this industry andyou're potentially thinking
about maybe your home isn'tsupportive or accepting, are
employers that can support yourtransition along the way. How do
new hires find that information?Because they might not think to
ask or they might like, isother, is it readily available?
(34:12):
Is that something that's part ofthe onboarding process and the
orientation for new hires?
Terri McDowell (34:16):
Yeah, hesitate to say that it's front and
center in the hiring process. Ithink a little bit of it is due
diligence on behalf ofcandidates as well. You don't
have to look very hard to findthe policies that our
organization and mostorganizations embrace. So I
certainly have a recommendationto any hire coming off campus,
(34:38):
for example, whether whetherthey're in community or not, you
know, do your homework, know whoyou're interviewing with as much
as the interviewer wants to knowwho you are. And that will
inform to a degree because I'malso not naive.
There's definitely businessesout there that all you have to
do is look at their website andgo, I am not going to fit here.
(34:59):
You know, the ideals are prettyclear. I won't name any of them
on this call, but, you know, Ithink in community they become
known very quickly. So, youknow, you look on a website, for
example, and you will find itnow. There's a big difference
between words and actions,definitely.
And, you know, I'm going topersonalize for a second. I
(35:22):
think that in part is whatprompted me to become more of an
advocate, more visible incommunity. I think visibility
matters. I go back to my ownexperience coming through the
system and again, in the contextof broader gender parity, it
took me a long time to findwomen in the border. Part of
(35:42):
that is where I started.
Part of that was the communitiesI grew up in. Part of that was
the profession that I chose. Itwas all of the above. So I knew
once I started to see moregender parity being embraced in
the workplace, I started to seemore of a glimmer that there is
a future here. Then I saw it inhorizontally.
(36:02):
Saw other organizations wherenot just women, but in some
cases trans individuals werebeing elevated, were on a good
career path. You start torealize the art of the possible.
You start to realize this ispossible. And so looking for
pioneers, if you will, lookingfor people who have carved the
course before was reallyimportant to me. Part of the
(36:25):
reason I choose to do thingslike this and make it known that
yes, I am a trans woman.
Yes, I work on Bay Street. Yes,this is the career that I've
had. Ideally in today's society,particularly with the younger
generation, you know, you don'thave to be so glacial about who
you are and disclosing all ofthat. It's encouraged. It's in
the workplace these days.
(36:46):
Employers want it as much as theindividual needs it. So I do
think there's a change there, inparticular, I go to the younger
generation. They've been a hugeinspiration for my journey in
terms of just pointing out,anyone who's kind of in
community already would have thelack of a better word read me
(37:07):
very easily for the last twentyfive years. Those who aren't
looking don't know what they'relooking for, maybe not kind of
thing. But as a result of that,I would increasingly have, you
know, younger people inparticular embracing the ideal
of having a senior partner atthe firm that would be fully
authentic themselves, allowingthem to be fully authentic.
(37:30):
So I do think that's reallyimportant. In terms of the
onboarding, the on campusrecruiting, I mean, you're not
going to get to that levelunless you've done your own
level of diligence to who theorganization is that you're
talking to, including our own.Just go on for another minute
here because it leads to anothertopic that we touched on
earlier, is this whole conceptof corporate rainbow washing.
(37:54):
It's very real. I mean, it's outthere.
I did a LinkedIn post on thisfor what it's worth back in June
and I didn't specificallyreference it as a rainbow
washing post, but that was theintent of it. And in its own
way, I think that speaks toprogress. I mean, if you go back
(38:16):
thirty five years, in my case,corporations were not embracing
the queer community at all. Soput the trans community aside,
they were not embracing it. Thatstarted to shift in the 90s into
the 2000s when we saw pridebecome more of a corporate
recognized event, etcetera.
And then, you know, did it gotoo far? Did everybody think
(38:38):
that they could plant the flagand claim inclusion? Absolutely.
But what it's done now is it'sheld organizations accountable.
And I think that by itself ishuge progress.
You're going to plant the flagin June, you better live the
values the other eleven monthsof the year. It's not a one week
of the year opportunity tocapitalize. It's a commitment
(39:00):
that you make to the community.And if you're not making that
community, the community has aright to call you out. Just like
I think the community has theresponsibility to recognize
those that are truly living thevalues.
I think it, you know, we have tohave it both ways. We can't
always be the defiant ones. Wecan't always be screaming
injustice because there's a lotof good things happening out
(39:20):
there too, and those need to beapplauded.
Isaac Cook (39:22):
I love that. I'm sitting here clapping on mute
and everything like that becauseI think so many folks don't
recognize that, you know, yes,you can celebrate pride that one
month or one week, one day ofthe year, but it's exactly to
your point. It is a twelvemonth, 03/1965, seven days a
week commitment that you aregoing to provide individuals
(39:47):
within your community the mostinclusive, equitable, and
diverse environment that theycan possibly live in so that
they can thrive. And everyone'sgonna make mistakes, and I and I
think, you know, it's it'srealistic to understand that,
yes, people are going to makemistakes, but as you said, we
need to hold each otheraccountable to those mistakes.
And if they're, you know,severe, that we need to be able
(40:09):
to have open dialogue aroundthat.
So I I I appreciate that commentimmensely.
Terri McDowell (40:13):
Yeah. Wonderful. I mean, I will, again, step into
personal experience for a momenthere in my own kind of, for lack
of better word, coming out storyat the firm. And when I made the
wholehearted decision to be myfull self each and every day as
I came through the doors, youknow, that was a scary moment
regardless of seniority,regardless of career, etcetera.
(40:37):
The way it came about is, as Isay, I've always been really
fortunate that I've always had acouple of people close to me
that knew me, read me, whateveryou want, and just got it.
And here in Toronto, one of mycolleagues was, who was fairly
new to me. There's a lot ofpeople I now work with that I
hadn't known earlier in mycareer. And this individual
(40:59):
invited me out, we were havingcoffee and they said to me,
you're a transgender woman, butyou don't really fully embrace
that when you come into work,although most people read you as
either a transgender woman orgenderfluid. And she said, why
is that? And when I left thatconversation, I thought, I can't
answer that.
I don't have an answer for thatat this point. And so that made
(41:22):
me immediately realize, Hey,there's steps I can take here.
So I had the opportunity. Again,I recognized my point of
privilege, recognized where Iwas, I'm fairly senior in the
organization, so I was able toimmediately secure meetings with
our top executives, includingour chairperson. And every one
(41:43):
of them without any prompting,they didn't know what the
meeting was necessarily aboutwhen I got on their calendar,
each and every one of them to aperson said, how can we help?
And you know, that was anamazing relief for me. It was
really telling and I mean that'smy story. I know that there's
(42:04):
some that don't go that way.There's probably an unfortunate
number that don't go that way.But now talking to others, I
know that others have had thatexperience in their own
organizations.
So I like to be a glass halffull kind of person and the
world has shifted so much over,you know, my thirty five plus
year working career.
Cyn Sweeney (42:24):
That statement, how can we help? How can we help? It
just sets up the platform. We'reready to listen. We're here.
We want to support. Fororganizations out there that
might be like, Okay, well, prideis easy. It's easy. We know what
(42:45):
to do. We can put a float in orwe can raise the flag.
Maybe it's just not knowingwhere to start. What are some
tips that you might recommend onhow organizations can be
inclusive or embracing thecommunity the other eleven
months of the year?
Terri McDowell (43:04):
Yeah, I think there's and this is not
necessarily limited to theworkplace. Think there's some
very basic things about, youknow, lack of assumption is
always a good place to start. Ifyou meet a relatively, I'll use
the term, a feminine male, I wasperceived as one for many, many
(43:25):
years kind of thing. You know,don't necessarily assume who
that individual is. You've gotto get to know them.
Similarly, if you meet a moremasculine, cisgendered female
kind of thing, don't make thoseassumptions. So the use of
gender neutral pronouns isimportant. They reference to
partners as opposed to what didyou and your husband slash wife
(43:47):
do this weekend? That type ofthing. I think people are a lot
more averse in that than theyonce were.
But again, I go back to my timeand that was the common
question, you know, what did youand your girlfriend? What did
you and your wife do in themoment? And then you're tap
dancing around, you know, howyou describe yourself to others
(44:07):
and, you know, who your partneris and and things of that
nature. And again, that that'sshared across the queer
community. I'm I'm I'm wellaware.
So but again, I think wearingthe pin doesn't hurt either. You
know, that it's just wearing thepin or putting it in your email
address, rainbow flag, itsignals to people this is a safe
space. That's incrediblyimportant to people. And it's
(44:31):
not that hard. You know, anyonecan slap on a pin, anyone can
put it in their can put it intheir label.
Now, flip side of that is, ifyou're going to identify as an
ally or an advocate, or if youare an ally or an advocate, it
goes back to, don't advocatewhen we're in the room, we need
you more when we're not in theroom. You know, we need to know
(44:52):
what's being said and you needto stand up for us when we're
not there to do it forourselves. It's easy to be a
hero in the moment kind of thingthat, you know, heroes are the
heroes that do it when no one'slooking kind of thing. Just
instilling that from the topdown is, is so critical and
can't enforce it. You know,people would have to get it into
(45:14):
their own DNA.
That's the thing. But boy, youcan certainly set corporate
culture in a heartbeat by whatcomes out of the c suite.
Isaac Cook (45:22):
I'm still over here clapping, and it is so true,
though, that that whole trickledown effect really can help
change an organization. And Iknow we only have a couple
minutes left here, but I didjust want to quickly ask, kind
of on the flip side of ofCyndi's questions, but I guess a
little bit more personal. Youknow, as someone in a position
of authority in an organization,when there is someone in the
(45:44):
workplace struggling train totransition or struggling to come
out, Can you maybe provide someexamples of either ways that
you've done it or ways thatyou've seen that support kind of
in the professional or businessenvironment?
Terri McDowell (45:56):
I'll I'll try, Isaac, again, as anyone
listening to this and as youundoubtedly know, this is such a
personal journey for everyone,right? So how they choose to
embrace it, what they'renecessarily seeking for
validation, confirmation,affirmation, differs very widely
(46:17):
across, we're all individuals.Of course, we differ from one
another, right? But there's acouple of things that we've done
as an organization that I thinkhave helped. One is we have a
team's network.
Have a gender identity. Nowwe're a big organization, I
realize that. It's not like onesize fits all here.
Cyn Sweeney (46:37):
Is it like an ERG, like an employee resource group?
Terri McDowell (46:39):
Yeah. So we have an ERG, but we then even have a
more specific one for the transcommunity, which is just a trans
channel. And this is availablefor employees, it's available to
parents, or it's available toallies to a degree. And, you
know, I've connected with a lotof people, a lot, it's still a
(47:02):
small community within ourorganization, like most
organizations, but that channelhas served very well where
people get to know who is incommunity and they can reach
out. And frankly, mostly whoI've talked to through that
channel, there's been a coupleof employees that have either
come out and are facing specificissues or alternatively are
coming out in their journey.
(47:23):
But more often, it's parents.It's parents that are employees
of ours or partners of ours orworking with us. And I've met,
one experience I had was apartner that I had worked very
closely with for years andunbeknownst to me had a trans
child. And, I, you know, I did awebcast years later after we
(47:46):
were no longer physically in thesame location. And I did a
webcast internally and he calledafterwards and said, I just want
you to know, I watched this withmy daughter and, you know, she's
14, she's going through it.
And I did this as a result of, Iwanted her to know what
possibilities that, you know,it's not about survival, it's
(48:07):
about thriving. And you canprobably tell, I mean, that one
brought tears. That was a hardmoment of the importance of
being visible. All of thosethings to the extent you're in
an organization that canfacilitate it, that you have the
critical mass to do it,etcetera, are important. Other
ways, again, my experience is myexperience and mine alone, but
(48:33):
to the extent you are in theprivileged position that I am
and have the ability to bevisible, it allows people to
know the art of the possibleagain.
Cyn Sweeney (48:42):
You're a role model. I mean, really, you are a
role model. And I wonder then atthis, you know, who would you
look to? Who would you say is arole model of yours? Do you have
anyone off the top of your mindthat you might be able to?
Terri McDowell (48:56):
Yeah, there's definitely a few out there. It
was very difficult because of myage and my generation to find
trans role models in theprofessional community, for
example. Certainly, there wasindividuals in the public eye
that would come forth, mostlyyou would find them in
(49:17):
communities that I didn'tnecessarily directly relate to,
performing arts, theater, it wason screen, etcetera, valuable in
terms of just seeing thevisibility of the trans
community. But the oneindividual who I won't go by
name, because it would probablybe lost to most people, but we
had a senior gay woman executivewho came out in the firm during
(49:42):
her career, and she was a hugeinfluence on me recognizing this
is possible. And as she learnedmore of my story and the fact
that I wasn't totally out, but Iwas largely out kind of thing,
she made the comment to me thatif I was ready, she said to me,
she said this could save lives.
(50:02):
And I dismissed it, to behonest. I said, I'm a tax
partner. I mean, what do youmean? And she instilled in me
the visibility matters. And shetalked about, as you were going
through the system, Terri, youdidn't have role models.
How many times were you close toquitting? How many times did you
think I can do this easier? Andso to the extent I have heroes,
(50:27):
she would be one of them. Thatwas an amazing discussion to
have. The fact that the seniorperson took the time to invest
in me and point out what mypotential could potentially be
in this regard.
That was a moment of truth forme, think. Thought I'd always
been open to a point, had alwaysbeen truly supportive of the
(50:50):
community in various ways,etcetera, but I was starting to
feel increasingly hypocriticalby not being myself on a daily
basis.
Cyn Sweeney (50:58):
Well, thank you so much, Terri. I've literally had
shivers for some of the thingsthat you've said. It's so
important and valuable, and it'sbeen a great conversation. We
hope that we can have you backon the show sometime.
Terri McDowell (51:09):
I'd be pleased to do it. Thanks for having me,
Cyn, and likewise, you've been ahuge inspiration getting to know
you. I mean, parents likeyourself are absolutely
invaluable. Thank you for havingme.
Cyn Sweeney (51:21):
Okay. Well, you.
Terri McDowell (51:23):
Okay. Take care.
Cyn Sweeney (51:24):
That's all the time we have today, folks. Thank you
for joining us for anotherepisode of Hey Sis.
Isaac Cook (51:30):
The conversation doesn't have to stop here
though. If you would like to getin touch with us to ask us a
question or share your story ona future episode, you can email
us at connectsimplygoodform dotcom or visit us on our website
at www.haces.com.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.