March 27, 2023 • 44 mins
“The best that we can do is continue to be visible, continue to organize, and continue to take action to secure our own space within our own culture.”
Just in time for the Trans Day of Visibility, Isaac (They/He) sits down with Simply Good Form Director of Program Development Emma Stanley (She/Her), to talk about the challenges surrounding and importance of living visibly. Given the recent rise of anti-Trans legislation and sentiment, Isaac and Emma discuss the increased importance of this year's TDoV.
The two discuss the barriers people face when trying to live visibly and the reasons why it is so important to see members of the Trans community succeeding in the more mundane aspects of life, drawing from their own lived experiences for context.
Also in this episode, Emma shares an upcoming skills program called Thrive, which aims to help Trans and gender-diverse community members find careers that will encourage and support them to live authentically. This program includes resume building, a mock interview, and tips on how to determine if a prospective employer is serious about inclusion.
Show links:
- Hey, Cis! TD Connected Community Moment: Simply Good Form's Name and Gender Marker Change Pathway & Clinics
- Check out THRIVE: Careers and Resiliency for registration and more info.
- Da'Shaun (They/Them) on Twitter: "To be visibly Queer is to choose your happiness over your safety."
Music:
Hey, Cis! thanks musical artist Craymo for our intro/extro song: Be Myself
Written by: Craig Stephen Raymo/Brandon Jarrett/Joshua Daniel Hershfield (c) (p) 2015 Craymo Music, BMI/Moho Music, ASCAP
Website: http://www.Craymo.com
This podcast is created by Simply Good Form, with production assistance and editing from Podstarter.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/simply-good-form/
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/SimplyGoodForm
Hey, Cis! Season 3 is proudly partnered with TD Bank Group.
Hosts: Cyn Sweeney (She/Her) and Isaac Cook (They/He)
Producer: Connor Sampson (He/Him) podstarter.io
For more beyond binary conversations on being better humans, tips for being an inclusive leader in your field and connecting with trans folks from coast-to-coast, subscribe to Hey, Cis! on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Isaac Cook (00:04):
Hey, cis. From coast to coast, we're bridging the gap
between the cisgender andtransgender community, creating
meaningful dialogue and space tolearn and grow.
Cyn Sweeney (00:11):
Join us as we connect with our community,
break down tough conversations,and get comfortable being better
humans.
Isaac Cook (00:20):
Welcome to Hey Sis. My name is Isaac Cook, today I'm
joined by the ever so amazingEmma Stanley. Sin and I had the
pleasure of being joined by Emmaback in December to end the
twenty twenty two year. And shealso spoke about her journey as
a world traveler in seasonthree, episode twenty nine and
thirty.
Emma Stanley (00:35):
Hi, I'm Emma Stanley. I'm an inclusion
consultant and the director ofprogram development with Simply
Good Form. We're a Halifax basedinclusion company. I use sheher
pronouns, and I have been in theeducation industry and then more
recently in inclusion trainingfor about ten years.
Isaac Cook (00:57):
Welcome back to the show, Emma.
Emma Stanley (00:58):
Thanks for having me in again, Isaac.
Isaac Cook (01:00):
Always a pleasure. So, International Transgender
Day of Visibility, or TDOV, isan annual event occurring on
March 31, dedicated tocelebrating transgender people
and raising awareness ofdiscrimination faced by
transgender people worldwide. Itis a day that is very near and
dear to both of our hearts, asyou know, as we are trans
people. But I wanted to toss thequestion your way first and
(01:23):
foremost. So for you, what isthe biggest payoff of TDOV and
events and celebrations similarto TDOV and trans visibility as
a whole?
Emma Stanley (01:34):
Oh, wow. Okay. That's a big question. But I
think it does boil down to acouple of points. When trans
people who are already out andliving their authentic lives are
able to see others likethemselves and connect with that
community, the support isunbelievable.
(01:55):
The change in your life when youmove from being someone who is
alone or isolated to beingsomeone who is a part of a
community, even if thatcommunity is dispersed
worldwide, is profound. Itchanges the way that you view
yourself, your future, yourability to thrive wherever it is
you are. And that affects yourambitions as well, your life
(02:19):
plans. Certainly, in my case,finding my community was not
just a sort of social or supportaspect, but it allowed me the
confidence to make my ambitionsbigger. And so it ended up
changing my career path.
It ended up changing where Ilived. And all of that basically
stemmed from feeling like I hada support network.
Isaac Cook (02:40):
Yeah.
Emma Stanley (02:41):
And that's the case for for other trans people
as well. When you talk about itin terms of people that aren't
out yet, that that haven't beenable to find that safe space to
live authentically. It showspeople living their lives as
their authentic selves and anddoing it successfully and
(03:04):
without an enormous amount ofdrama. Yeah. The visibility of
people living without drama.
Isaac Cook (03:09):
A lot of times when, in particular non trans or non
queer people talk about transexperiences, it's probably 90%
of the time overdramatized andfocusing on the struggles of
being trans, you know, what arethe experience like to
transition, the hardships, therelationship struggles, things
(03:32):
like that. And we don't oftenget to celebrate a trans CEO, or
like a trans woman excelling inher career, or, you know, just
the mundane things of like beingable to go to a grocery store
and not get misgendered, like,little things like that give
people hope and give peoplecomfort. And it's easy,
(03:54):
especially in the day and agethat we currently live in where
everything is on social media orput on the news, it's easy to
only focus on the stuff that'sgonna get people either angry or
sad. Like, those those twoemotions are what kind of fuels
that fire. But for myself, Ilove seeing those kind of like
(04:15):
more mundane, and I agree withZoe, kind of like not normal
people experiences, but like theaverage Joe going out in the
world and being like, you know,I'm just living.
I'm just doing me, you know?
Emma Stanley (04:27):
And it's it's interesting you mentioned angry
and sad. I think I would addvictorious to that. There are
just as many sort of clickbaitemotions that that feel good.
But, again, they get focused onso heavily. We ignore this the
after the happily ever afterpart of it where it's just
you're just living your life.
You just wanna go to IKEA orwhatever. So when trans people
(04:51):
who are in the mundane part oftheir lives, where it's not
necessarily the the focus oftheir existence anymore come out
and say, hey. I'm I'm out. I'mliving my life. I don't really
have amazing story for you, butI do exist.
It gives that visibility andthat representation that we're
(05:13):
usually missing in entertainmentmedia.
Isaac Cook (05:16):
Yeah. Well, it also brings up that idea of like what
comes next, right? Like, sayyou're a trans person transition
and also socially transition. Soyou socially transition, you get
your support people, you'recomforted, you go through that,
the systems in place and thebarriers, and then you medically
(05:38):
transition, you go through thosesteps, and then it's like, what
next? Right?
Like, you're going into thosestages of your life. And I know
both kind of me and you are kindof in those stages now at our
inner lives where we're notnecessarily needing to put so
much fuel into into being like,Okay, I need to get like my name
changed, or like those like keyparts of the transition. Like
(06:00):
afterwards, we're like, Okay,like, now we're in our careers.
Like, now we're just trying tobuy a house or move or like find
roommates or, you know, buygroceries, like things like
that. And it's interesting.
Like, it's an interesting,unique experience that I think
all trans people go through. Andthere's so much
intersectionalities as well,intertwined with that, that that
(06:22):
makes that what's next sounique.
Emma Stanley (06:26):
Yeah, I think the focus is so laser targeted on
the coming out and the initialexperience and the interesting
part, basically. Yeah. Thedramatic part that we lose that.
So it's good. I mean I mean,look at the holidays that we do
have.
We have other than, the day ofvisibility, we have national
(06:48):
coming out day or internationalcoming out day and the Trans Day
of Remembrance. So it's likecoming out and when we die.
Those are the interesting bitsthat the rest of the world is
actually interested in. The restof it is just like going
shopping and no one cares. Forpeople who are still struggling
with it, still questioning,still trying to find their
moment to to be themselves, Ithink that showing that you can
(07:14):
just live your life in a waythat is not dramatic, it's not
an inspirational story, isincredibly important.
Isaac Cook (07:25):
Yeah. And I and I think on that too, like there's
there's always a tricky ideathat everyone wants to be an
advocate and everyone wants tobe their own advocate, but some
people like aren't good atadvocating for themselves and
people automatically assumelike, if you are a trans person,
then you should be like the keygo to for like, everything and
(07:46):
anything related to this idea.But there's also the fact that
like, when you're trans, likeyou don't just come out once,
you don't just come out twice,you come out in multiple
different stages of your life.And a lot of times people
transition more than once. Like,it doesn't just happen that, you
know, you identify as this, andthen, you know, twenty years
(08:10):
down the road, you're goingstill be identifying as that
same thing.
Like, your identity fluctuatesand changes. Like, I guess, I
think the best way for me maybeto explain it to people who
maybe aren't as intertwined withthe trans community is that, for
instance, for myself, When Ifirst came out as a as a baby, I
(08:30):
was I think fourteen twelvemaybe and I was like Okay, I
have this like preconceivednotion of like who I want to be
when I'm like older. And thatwas comprised of being like,
basically as close to a cis manas I possibly could as someone
assigned female at birth.Because when you're younger, and
you're taught about, or maybenot taught about trans
(08:52):
identities, you automaticallythink, if I'm X, I have to be
the complete opposite of that.
Emma Stanley (08:56):
Yeah, very much.
Isaac Cook (08:58):
And then when you get older, you're like, Okay,
no, I don't actually have tosubscribe to very cis
heteronormative ideologies aboutgender identity and sexuality,
things like that. So, you know,like when I turned 16, I started
hormone therapy. And then I waslike, Oh, I really don't want be
(09:19):
a cis man. Like I identify morewith being like non binary or
like gender fluid and like youridentities change between that.
So that's another reallyimportant aspect of visibility
for people to consider is thatfeelings of yourself change over
time and the way that you aregoing to make yourself visible
to others or even visible toyourself is going to change over
(09:40):
time.
It's never going to be like aone and done event.
Emma Stanley (09:44):
I always get a bit sad when people talk about
phases because there's theclassic line. Oh, it's just a
phase and then the classicretort. It's not just a phase.
And I mean, it's a trickyconversation because the word
phase is kind of silly.Everything is a phase.
I was born a baby.
Isaac Cook (10:06):
That's a phase.
Emma Stanley (10:07):
Sounds really fun. Funny to say, but like I am no
longer that thing. Everybody,everybody has many identities
over the course of their lives.
Isaac Cook (10:16):
Mhmm.
Emma Stanley (10:18):
Adding the aspect of gender to that mix, whether
it's you're a parent of a youngchild, a parent of a teenager, a
parent of adult children, thoseare three different phases of a
life. But they're deep andthey're meaningful. And as we
grow and change, we go throughdifferent identities. And yeah,
(10:41):
so adding gender to that mix isjust one extra aspect of a
process that everyone alreadydoes. It's not a unique process.
It's just an added component.
Isaac Cook (10:53):
Yeah. And the concept of phases, at least to
me, almost seems like there'slike an expiration to something
or, you Yeah. Know, like I thinkpeople become too muddled up in
that idea that like, it'sexactly as you said, like the
stereotypical, like, it's not aphase mom kind of thing. Like,
like, we're not technically,yes, they are phases, but it's
(11:14):
more of like an evolution. Like,for instance, like, you're in
use like the job or like careerexample is that like if you're
in one role and then you get a,you know, promotion, you're in a
different role.
Technically, that's a phase ofyour life that's now changed,
but you're still growing onthose, like steps that you then
built up to that position. Andit's similar with like gender
(11:35):
identity, sexuality, your allthe different identities that
you might identify withreligion, things like that is
that you learn things and thenyou also unlearn things about
yourself and the world and otherpeople around you. So then you
use those, all the mix of thoseexperiences as you evolve into
hopefully being a better personfor yourself and the people
(11:56):
around you, to create yourselfand to make yourself.
Emma Stanley (11:59):
Yeah.
Cyn Sweeney (12:04):
Hey, Sis is all about connecting communities and
thanks to support from TD BankGroup, here is this episode's
Connected Community Moment.
Isaac Cook (12:12):
So we are thrilled to announce that for those
located in Nova Scotia, inpartnership with the Mental
Health Foundation of NovaScotia, Mount Saint Vincent
University, the Halifax PublicLibraries, Dalhousie Legal Aid,
and Gender Affirming Care NovaScotia, we are offering a name
change and gender marker clinicon March 31, which is the day of
TDOV, from 12PM to 4PM at MountSt. Vincent University. There
(12:36):
will be two fabulous volunteerlawyers on-site with thanks to
Dalhousie Legal Aid to witnessand sign pre prepared documents.
Emma Stanley (12:42):
If you check out the website, you'll find a link
that will allow you to make anappointment. We are able to
process walk ins, but it will bea lot smoother if you can make
an appointment before you comein on that was March 31. We will
have volunteers there to takeyou through the paperwork as
well. If you are just wanting togather information, that is
(13:04):
absolutely allowed andrecommended.
Isaac Cook (13:07):
You can learn more at simplygoodform.com/name_
gender _ marker underscorechange underscore pathway or by
checking the link in the shownotes. We look forward to seeing
you there. This has been a Jesusand TD Bank Group Connected
Communities moment becauseinclusion matters. So what's the
(13:28):
value of having a gender markername change clinic, especially
for our community?
Emma Stanley (13:34):
I don't know how many of the listeners have
interacted with Canadianbureaucratic systems, but they
are labyrinthine. The name andgender marker change process has
come a long way, but it is stilla lot of steps, a lot of forms
(13:54):
and a lot of very anxietyinducing spaces. One of the
first steps is having to go to apolice station to get
fingerprinted, and that alonemakes a lot of people so anxious
they will not want to continuewith the process. So there are
significant boundaries for thecommunity in accessing this and
(14:19):
accessing the ability to liveyour identity legally is a
profound part of a human'sexperience.
Isaac Cook (14:28):
Mhmm.
Emma Stanley (14:30):
Name, your legal name affects almost every area
of your life. It determines, inpart, your access to Medicare.
It determines how you'readdressed by official sources.
And not being able to live underyour own name is a deeply
frustrating experience. I had todo that for many years before I
(14:50):
was able to legally change myname, and it was incredibly
frustrating.
Because every time you walk intoa hospital, which if you're
transitioning medically, you doa lot. Yeah, they have to check
your legal name. And every timeyou walk into a bank and every
time you have to interact withpolice and that one gets even
more terrifying than the othersare certainly much more anxiety
(15:14):
inducing because the last thingthat anybody really wants to do
is stand out to police. Yeah. Soit's a thing that people who
have or I I want to say peoplewho own their own name rarely
see, and that is perfectlyunderstandable.
(15:35):
But when your legal name is notyour real name, you quickly
become aware of how often youare required to use your legal
name and how demeaning it is tohave to sort of wear your story
on your sleeve. It's it'sfrustrating. And access legal
access to your own identity issomething that a lot of people
(15:57):
need. And because of the processfor getting it, it is again
confusing and a bit scary. Sowe're trying to give people a
softer path towards just simplygetting access to a service that
is already available and a lotof people need.
Isaac Cook (16:18):
There's a lot of barriers that people don't
recognize in terms of likefinances of changing your name.
And also kind of jumping backagain to like geography. You
have to go to vital statisticsin Nova Scotia in particular.
There's only like one office andthat is in Bears Lake in
Halifax, which, you know, is notthe easiest to navigate, even if
(16:40):
you're in Halifax trying to getthere by bus. I did that when I
was changing my name and it wasawful.
It's tricky on those sides. Andthen also on the finance side,
you know, these are legaldocuments. Therefore, they need
to be legally verified bysomeone. Therefore, you have to
find someone to notarize thingsor to sign off on them. Finding
the people to be able to supportyou in this journey, because it
(17:02):
is it is a journey, is one stepof this.
And people like don't realizetoo, like how many IDs do you
have with your name on it? Or ifyou're, you know, an older
individual and you have anapartment, you have to change
all your names on thosedocuments, your credit card,
your debit card, your license,your passport.
Emma Stanley (17:20):
Going back and getting every certification
you've ever gotten. So yourdegree, your diploma. Yeah.
Every license that you that youhave under your name, the
permanent ones that you haven'tthought about in twenty years,
you have to go back and get allof those changed because you use
those certifications wheneveryou're applying for a job. And
(17:40):
then that comes up.
And we are still living in aworld where when your documents
don't match your introductionname so if I introduce myself as
Emma, but all of my olddocuments are in my old name,
That comes up in the interview,and it's really frustrating
because you can't just extend aninterview most of the time.
(18:02):
Right? You have you have yourtwenty, twenty five minutes. And
if I spend fifteen of thoseminutes explaining why my
documents are in a differentname, I only have 10 to sell
myself to a prospectiveemployer. And that is a huge
barrier.
That is a problem. One lastpoint on the gender marker
clinic is that if people justwant to come in who have already
(18:26):
gone through the process andmake absolutely sure that they
got every single step, I have atiny personal anecdote here. I
changed my name to two and ahalf years ago now, and I only
very recently found out while wewere building this clinic that I
completely missed an importantstep. And my SIN number is still
(18:48):
in my old name. So I have morepaperwork to do.
So in terms of just givingpeople some peace of mind, if
they do want to come in and justcheck to make sure that they
have in fact completed everystep, we can help with that.
Isaac Cook (19:02):
If folks are not Canadian or are from another
country, Cindy has a lot ofexperience with, you know, the
process for individuals who wereborn in Ireland and we're always
keen to learn more, you know,about where are the barriers
that exist in other countries,You know, how can we help
support that? Obviously, don'tbe expecting to be signing
(19:25):
paperwork that day, but we canat least help you understand
that process a little bitbetter. So I wanted to really
jump back a little bit becausewe spoke really quickly kind of
about like safety and securitywith identity. And there's one
(19:47):
quote that I've carried with meever since I first heard it, and
hopefully I am citing thisproperly. We'll include it in
the show notes, I have a link tothe tweets where it was posted.
But it goes, to be visibly queeris to choose your happiness over
your safety. And that's fromDeShaunLH on Twitter. And when I
(20:08):
heard that, I was like, shit,that's pretty true. And I mean,
there's a lot of we hold a lotof privilege here in Canada,
especially as we're both, youknow, white trans individuals,
but there's still significanttransphobia, in particular
(20:29):
towards like trans women andtrans misogyny throughout Canada
and North America that isgrowing to degrees that I would
have never imagined. To date,we'll also include some more of
the links down in the show notesin hopes who want to learn more,
but Florida recently, down inthe in The US, became the eighth
(20:52):
state to restrict transgendercare for minors, so individuals,
I believe, under the age of 18,but in some states, I believe
it's under the age of 25.
So it's becoming increasinglymore important to be visible,
but in the same breath, it isbecoming increasingly more
dangerous to be visible.
Emma Stanley (21:11):
Yeah.
Isaac Cook (21:12):
Just curious kind of your your takes on all this,
Emma.
Emma Stanley (21:15):
The world is becoming a scarier place and or
the world is becoming a scaryplace again is maybe the better
phrasing of that. And while wehave as a community this ability
to see each other, thisvisibility and this
representation, it is reallydesperately important for us to
(21:38):
form as many networks of supportas we can and organize in the
ways that we are able to thinkdefensively, quite frankly.
Think about what happens if thatcomes here, because it's so easy
to say that happens somewhereelse. Because years ago, we
said, Oh, that only happensoutside of North America. That
(22:03):
only happens in this specificculture or that specific
culture.
And now it's knocking at ourback door.
Isaac Cook (22:09):
And
Emma Stanley (22:11):
that is a little bit terrifying. There is a part
of me that is still saying,well, that's America, and that's
simply not the case. The culturewar that is happening right now
has us dead center targeted, andthat is terrifying.
Isaac Cook (22:28):
Mhmm.
Emma Stanley (22:28):
And the best that we can do is continue to be
visible, continue to organize,and continue to take action to
secure our own space within ourown culture. Yeah. It's
frustrating because I know thatthose are very vague terms, like
what is organizing to secure ourspace within our own culture.
(22:49):
The fact is, I don't know. And Idon't think any one person can
know.
You have to look around you, seewhat problems you can solve,
what structures you can buildand act on that.
Isaac Cook (23:00):
To that exactly, I think it's really looking within
our own communities andrecognizing like where are the
barriers that exist? Where do weneed more visibility? Where does
there need to be more transinformed decisions? And everyone
can rip on Canada and NovaScotia's healthcare, but I think
that's one of the biggest, like,prime examples of areas that
(23:21):
need trans informed care. Andschool systems, there's so many
spots that need to becollaborating working closely
with actual trans people, not,you know, legislatures that say
that they're representing thetrans populations, but actual
trans people, particular, youknow, like BIPOC and indigenous
(23:44):
trans people who can also helpsupport those pieces of
intersectionality that so oftenget missed.
Trying to convince people, Ithink, is one of the most
trickiest things right now inCanada, and I'll speak
specifically to a Canadian lens,is because a lot of folks in
(24:08):
positions of power fall underthat same mentality. I suffer
from it too sometimes. It's veryeasy to be like, that's a US
problem. You know, whenever wetalk about the news, like, as I
just said, like, we're talkingabout Florida, we're talking
about Southern states, we'retalking about areas that
historically haven't been thesafest for trans people. But
people don't realise how quicklythese ideologies trickle up into
(24:33):
Canada and how, you know, yes,while Canada and The United
States and The UK and likeFrance, we're all, you know,
we're all different countriesand regions and our own
government systems, buteverything is very intertwined.
And just because something ishappening 5,000 miles away
doesn't mean it can't happen inyour own backyard. And I think
(24:56):
we need to become more aware ofwho is at risk in our backyard,
and who we can do better toprotect when they are visible.
Emma Stanley (25:11):
It is an interesting thing with Canadian
culture that we, I think, aremore careful about what we
project into the world asopposed to Americans. And this
is not a criticism of Americans,just a difference in culture.
Canadians, I think, are betterat optics, but not necessarily
(25:32):
at all better in action. We getcaught in the trap of seeing
representation and assuming thatmeans things are okay, and that
is not the case. I had a reallyinteresting time.
About a year ago, I went home tomy hometown, and it is fairly
rural. And while everyone wasextremely good to me because, of
(25:57):
course, it's my hometown, theyrecognize me, so I don't need
to, tell people my story. Theycan see it. While I was in
public, everyone was incrediblynice. And then after about a
week, I started looking up oldfriends and.
They said, yeah, absolutely.We'd love to hang out. You can't
come by the house, though. Andit wasn't the people. It was
(26:19):
their families, their partners.
People who had known me my wholelife were great about it. And
and, you know, that shows howfar we've come. But they were
not as sure about theirfamilies. And so we could hang
out, but I couldn't visit. Andthis is in a town that is fairly
rural, but but the again, thepeople there are are great in
(26:42):
public.
Mhmm. And I do think that it'seasy to get caught in the trap
of seeing all of the diversityand mistaking it for inclusion.
Isaac Cook (26:53):
Yes. Oh, 100%. I think to a kind of as you said,
like it's a very it's it's aworldwide issue. Don't get me
wrong, but Canadian Canada inparticular has the issue with
being like, here are thenumbers. Here's the data.
We're good. Like there's transpeople here. There's indigenous
people here. There's blackpeople here. We're good.
You know, we don't have to
Cyn Sweeney (27:12):
do anything else they exist.
Emma Stanley (27:14):
We're Canadians. We're so great.
Isaac Cook (27:16):
Yeah, we're so nice. Are you though? Yeah. I'm like,
I yeah, Canada is very good athiding things. We do a lot of
covert, like transphobia,racism, things like that, and
not a lot of it's overt, and youkind of have to, you know, peel
(27:38):
away and open the book to reallyto really see what's actually
going on behind the scenes in alot of these places.
And a lot of times, you know, itis those small towns like I also
not as small as you, but I didgrow up in a smaller town. My
high school was way too big, butit's it's interesting when you
(27:59):
when you have a lot of thatsmall town mentality and then
you kind of are perceived aslike you're like the only trans
person
Emma Stanley (28:06):
in
Isaac Cook (28:06):
the area or you're like the go to resource for your
family or you know, you can youcan tell the rural versus urban
trans experience. Like they'revery unique in their own kind of
subset.
Emma Stanley (28:21):
Absolutely. And that's where you get into
intersectionality and theoptions and challenges that you
face in a rural setting are sodifferent from in a larger city.
And a lot of that, bringing itright back to the beginning, is
being able to find yourcommunity.
Isaac Cook (28:36):
Mhmm.
Emma Stanley (28:37):
Small towns are isolating and Yes. That is not
fun.
Isaac Cook (28:42):
Well, I remember there was someone recently did a
surveys. Everyone loves surveysthis time of the year. I don't
know why. Maybe, you know, end
Emma Stanley (28:52):
of fiscal I love three days or surveys in the
morning just for fun.
Isaac Cook (28:56):
I know. Listen, I literally I think I was sent
like at least three or fourtoday. Anyways, a little off
topic, but there was a surveybeing done for like a rural
community in Nova Scotia andthey were like, what can we do
better? What other resources canwe provide these people? And
these people as in trans people,queer people as in myself.
(29:18):
Not to other myself,
Cyn Sweeney (29:19):
but crazy. I
Isaac Cook (29:21):
know, I know, I know. Anyhoo, what we can do to
help queer people in general inthe in the community. And one of
the biggest things that Iflagged that I was like, there's
literally nothing. If you askanyone for like, where can I go
for like, queer support? They'relike, go to Halifax.
It's like, where can I go to seea doctor that is at the very
(29:44):
least informed of what HRT isfor a trans body? They're like,
Go to the sexual health clinicin Halifax. I don't know. There
are no resources in rural areas,so then everything is sent to
this one area, which then putsso much pressure on those
(30:05):
resources in that one specificarea because they're not
geographically spread around,nor are they supported if they
try and start up. I know I'mgetting on a little bit of a
side tangent, but everythingkind of relates back to the idea
of visibility and if we don'thave resources in these areas,
how are you expecting people tobe comfortably visible in these
geographic if they have to go,like in Nova Scotia to Halifax
(30:28):
to be properly visible and to beproperly Why are we turning
around and being like, Whyaren't there any trans people
here?
Meanwhile,
Emma Stanley (30:38):
They said they put them in a truck and ship them to
the city. Yeah, exactly. Isn'tthat weird?
Isaac Cook (30:42):
Yeah, this is weird. But it's like I just like I look
at like Sydney, Cape Breton, forinstance, which is four or five
hours away from Halifax. I knowpeople who used to have to drive
like, biweekly to monthly to getlike testosterone shots or, you
know, estrogen pills and stuff,they could only get it
prescribed in Halifax. We'reslowly getting better at
(31:07):
teleconferencing and stuff, butit's still like, it's not there
yet. That's why
Emma Stanley (31:11):
they're Health not there care is an issue. Yeah.
And we're starting. I don'tthink I mean, I would love to
see the healthcare change andand become more accessible. Of
course, we're Canadians.
Health care is is pretty much anissue for everyone and and rural
health care in particular. Weare trying to get more support
programs out to rural areas. Forexample, Thrive. Shameless plug.
(31:37):
I run a program called Thrivethat is in partnership with the
Mental Health Foundation of NovaScotia.
It is a program to try andintroduce queer youth to the
skills that they need to find ajob. And one of the explicit
focuses of Thrive was to get itout to the rural areas and not
(32:00):
have it entirely be containedwithin HRM. And that's been more
challenging than anyone on theteam had expected at the
beginning, and we're trying toremedy that now. But the
momentum of everything alreadyrolling towards the city is
(32:20):
really hard to fight against.
Isaac Cook (32:22):
Yeah, it's trying to find the right individuals or
the right groups to be able tothen perse that. Like just
thinking of like a marketingcomms lens for myself, like
being able to tap into thoserural communities and find the
individuals in those communitieswho then feel comfortable opting
in. You know, if it's a youngerindividual living at home, maybe
(32:42):
they're not out yet becausethere's not the resources of the
community to get the support, sothen they would have to, you
know, to partake in a programlike this. I mean, obviously we
don't require people to be outto everyone around them. They
just have to simply selfidentify.
But in a lot of instances, youknow, if they're sitting in a
meeting or talking to someoneonline and the parent or
(33:04):
caregiver comes in and asks,know, what are you doing? And
you have to like, you know,explain that to them. It can get
into some tricky conversations.So it's trying to find the right
ways to deliver programs tothese individuals meet them
where That's they're definitelylike a universal struggle, I
(33:25):
think, for anyone trying todeliver programs, and especially
those that are not just in NovaScotia but across Canada at
large, is that it's alwaystypically the city centres or
those larger urban locationsthat, you know, get the most
uptake in terms of, you know,2SLGBTQ programming, because
(33:48):
there's just more people whowill opt in in those areas. You
know.
Emma Stanley (33:53):
And it's a vicious cycle. They get the funding, so
they get the people, they getthe funding. Yeah.
Isaac Cook (33:59):
And they get the numbers so that they can keep
the funding. And
Emma Stanley (34:01):
goes and it and it goes.
Isaac Cook (34:02):
Yeah. And it's just this continuing cycle. And it's
trying. It's it's trying to findways to also represent these
communities appropriately tofunders to be like, hey, like
there's a huge, huge gap that weneed to be recognizing and then
putting funding into supporting.Kind of as we've been talking
about for the past thirtyminutes is that it's like an
(34:24):
iceberg, right?
Like this is like the problemwe're having. But at the
underneath there's like, youknow, health care, school,
education.
Emma Stanley (34:33):
But we put pronoun pins on. You're fine.
Isaac Cook (34:35):
Oh yeah, we're fine.
Emma Stanley (34:37):
Haven't you seen the pronoun pins?
Isaac Cook (34:39):
We do the rainbow
Emma Stanley (34:39):
sidewalks. We're good.
Isaac Cook (34:42):
Yeah, we did the rainbow sidewalks in June and
then they wash away by August.We're fine.
Emma Stanley (34:48):
Because deep systemic problems are always
solved by sidewalk
Isaac Cook (34:51):
chalk. Absolutely. So jumping back to thrive
because I think this is kind ofa perfect opportunity to be able
to talk about programs like thisand also shameless plug because
I think it's a really greatprogram that like I think more
(35:12):
people need to know about is sokind of as we said, target
demographics obviously are, youknow, 2SLGBTQ plus individuals
under the age 25.
Emma Stanley (35:25):
Yeah, 16 to 25 is the group we're focusing on. So
sort of end of high school andbeginning of your career.
Isaac Cook (35:33):
Gotcha. And then what are the goals of like what
folks partaking in the
Cyn Sweeney (35:37):
program learn out of it? Like, can you maybe give
people like a quick run throughof like
Isaac Cook (35:41):
what they can expect?
Emma Stanley (35:44):
Thrive is a free program. It's five weeks long.
It's entirely online and mostlyasymmetrical. So that means that
the lectures are pre recordedand the assignments are graded
when you finish them. It takes acouple hours a week to do.
(36:05):
And what it does is give theparticipant the skills and
confidence they need to getthrough their first interview.
So we take it right frombuilding a resume with new
algorithmic hiring in mind. Wehave a surprising number of
(36:26):
participants who mentioned thattheir parents are still telling
them to like a go in and ask tospeak to the manager or bug them
every day until you get a job,which is like I'm I'm sure it
was maybe in rural towns. Yeah,it's it's the kind of advice
that was absolutely relevant andit's being given in good faith,
but it's unfortunately just notthe case anymore. More and more
(36:49):
hiring managers aren't actuallyallowed to see applicants until
they get through an algorithmicprocess.
So we're building with themodern world in mind. And again,
we take it right from resumebuilding, researching your
company all the way up to a liveinterview, which will be with
volunteer hiring managers fromaround the community. So when
(37:15):
you leave the program, you havea certificate of completion, you
have a work reference fromSimply Good form, and you have
finished a live interview for arealistic but not real job. And
it just gets those first dayjitters out of the way so that
(37:37):
when you go into your first realinterview, you have one under
your belt. And you don't have tobe as nervous about the process
because you'll have done itbefore.
And that's been really usefulfor our participants so far.
Isaac Cook (37:51):
Yeah. And maybe just for folks who might not be
aware, and I'm going to takethis from kind of your
perspective, is why the focus on2S LGBTQ plus individuals? Like
what would you say are kind ofthe unique struggles that queer
individuals face trying to findemployment? Like maybe just give
(38:13):
a quick kind of overview of why.
Emma Stanley (38:15):
Yeah, absolutely. You actually I forgot two super
important parts and they answerthis question, so that's
perfect. When you are a queerand you are in your late teens,
the fact is it is more difficultto build networks. Networks are
what get people into theircareers and advance their
careers more than any other partof your life, including your
(38:39):
qualifications, including yourtraining. It really very much
still is not what you know, butwho you know.
And this isn't to say that it'sall nepotism. It's opportunity.
If you don't know that someoneis hiring, then you can't apply
for the job and you find outwho's hiring largely through
your networks. So a large partof our programming is teaching
(39:04):
queer youth how to buildnetworks that are available to
them as they are typically,especially for trans and non
binary youth, locked out of alot of the traditional means of
building them. And that is ahuge challenge for queer youth.
And because of COVID, because weall love talking about the after
(39:25):
effects of COVID, the moretraditional means of building
networks and experience likevolunteer opportunities dried up
for two years. And we have alarge cohort of young people who
have not had the opportunitiesto socialize and network build
that people have had in thepast. And we're trying to fill
(39:46):
that gap. The second largebarrier that queer youth find is
finding an inclusive business towork for. So part of the program
is and I hope businesses are outthere are listening to this
because I am training them tofigure you out.
Isaac Cook (40:07):
Are
Emma Stanley (40:09):
teaching them questions they can ask specific
pointed questions they can askin interviews to find out if an
employer is actually inclusiveor if they just put a pride
sticker in the window once ayear. That's been honestly an
extremely rewarding part of theprogramming. It's questions you
can ask a little bit of readingbody language, and researching
(40:32):
the company and seeing whattheir actual credentials in
inclusion are before you evenapply.
Isaac Cook (40:38):
Yeah, I personally love that so much because no one
talks about it like at all. Oneof my favorite things to say to
people, because I've done quitea few interviews my myself, but
then also like supporting otherpeople through like the
interview processes. Interviewsare not just for the interviewer
(41:01):
to learn about you. It is alsofor the interviewee to interview
the interviewer. This is goingbe a tongue twister to learn
more about not only the role,but also who that individual is.
Are you going to be reporting tothem directly? If so, what is
their teaching style? What istheir learning style? And then
also, it's exactly as you said,like, is this company a safe
(41:22):
space for me? Is this companygoing to respect me?
Is this company going to createmore barriers in the job? And as
I said, like, no one reallytalks about that. They're just
like, if you're queer, get ajob, take whatever first job you
can get and then run with that.But, you know, in modern day,
(41:44):
and this kind of goes back tothe idea of pride and queer
inclusion. It's three sixty fivedays a year, 20.
So if you're, you know, sayingyou're inclusive, and you might
have a diversity and inclusionpolicy, how often do you
actually use that policy andimplement it into your everyday
practice, including hiringpractices, and not just have it
(42:07):
as like a footnote on yourwebsite?
Emma Stanley (42:10):
Very much.
Isaac Cook (42:11):
Yeah. If anyone is looking to support the Thrive
Program either as a participant,as a volunteer, or simply help
support the program as it is,growing, you can learn more
about it atwww.simplygoodform.cathrive. So
(42:37):
to kind of end this episode, aswe've focusing on a lot of
pretty So heavy topics,especially for you know,
listeners who who are members ofthe community, in particular,
the trans and non binarycommunity, is that to understand
that there is community outthere, regardless if you're in
rural or not, you know, Emma andI, I think are pretty good
(42:58):
representations that therethings do get better if you're
in a rural area. But regardlessof where you are, where you're
at in your journey, where youare at in your evolution and not
phase of your life, is thatthere are people out there who
hear you and they see you andyou may not hear or see them,
but they still acknowledge thatyou exist and that you're valid
(43:20):
in whatever stage of yourjourney that you're on. And that
one experience doesn't representthe experiences of all.
You know, as Sin and I have saidmany times on the podcast is
that I speak to only my ownexperiences, and I always
encourage others to share theirown as we're reflecting on TDOV
(43:40):
is to really recognise who inyour community is visible,
applaud them, celebrate them,but also look and see who isn't
visible and who isn't able to bevisible, and recognising what we
can do better to support thosepeople in making them visible or
safely visible.
Emma Stanley (43:59):
And I just want to add that it is incredibly easy
to get overwhelmed by the amountof scary news that is coming in.
But try to keep in mind that ifyou are out there and you are
feeling afraid, you do have acommunity at your back. Reach
out and find them.
Cyn Sweeney (44:16):
That's all the time we have today, folks. Thank you
for joining us for anotherepisode of Hey Sis.
Isaac Cook (44:22):
The conversation doesn't have to stop here,
though. If you would like to getin touch with us to ask us a
question or share your story ona future episode, you can email
us at connectsimplygoodform dotcom or visit us on our website
at www.heysis.com.
Hey, cis. From coast to coast, we're bridging the gap
between the cisgender andtransgender community, creating
meaningful dialogue and space tolearn and grow.
Cyn Sweeney (00:11):
Join us as we connect with our community,
break down tough conversations,and get comfortable being better
humans.
Isaac Cook (00:20):
Welcome to Hey Sis. My name is Isaac Cook, today I'm
joined by the ever so amazingEmma Stanley. Sin and I had the
pleasure of being joined by Emmaback in December to end the
twenty twenty two year. And shealso spoke about her journey as
a world traveler in seasonthree, episode twenty nine and
thirty.
Emma Stanley (00:35):
Hi, I'm Emma Stanley. I'm an inclusion
consultant and the director ofprogram development with Simply
Good Form. We're a Halifax basedinclusion company. I use sheher
pronouns, and I have been in theeducation industry and then more
recently in inclusion trainingfor about ten years.
Isaac Cook (00:57):
Welcome back to the show, Emma.
Emma Stanley (00:58):
Thanks for having me in again, Isaac.
Isaac Cook (01:00):
Always a pleasure. So, International Transgender
Day of Visibility, or TDOV, isan annual event occurring on
March 31, dedicated tocelebrating transgender people
and raising awareness ofdiscrimination faced by
transgender people worldwide. Itis a day that is very near and
dear to both of our hearts, asyou know, as we are trans
people. But I wanted to toss thequestion your way first and
(01:23):
foremost. So for you, what isthe biggest payoff of TDOV and
events and celebrations similarto TDOV and trans visibility as
a whole?
Emma Stanley (01:34):
Oh, wow. Okay. That's a big question. But I
think it does boil down to acouple of points. When trans
people who are already out andliving their authentic lives are
able to see others likethemselves and connect with that
community, the support isunbelievable.
(01:55):
The change in your life when youmove from being someone who is
alone or isolated to beingsomeone who is a part of a
community, even if thatcommunity is dispersed
worldwide, is profound. Itchanges the way that you view
yourself, your future, yourability to thrive wherever it is
you are. And that affects yourambitions as well, your life
(02:19):
plans. Certainly, in my case,finding my community was not
just a sort of social or supportaspect, but it allowed me the
confidence to make my ambitionsbigger. And so it ended up
changing my career path.
It ended up changing where Ilived. And all of that basically
stemmed from feeling like I hada support network.
Isaac Cook (02:40):
Yeah.
Emma Stanley (02:41):
And that's the case for for other trans people
as well. When you talk about itin terms of people that aren't
out yet, that that haven't beenable to find that safe space to
live authentically. It showspeople living their lives as
their authentic selves and anddoing it successfully and
(03:04):
without an enormous amount ofdrama. Yeah. The visibility of
people living without drama.
Isaac Cook (03:09):
A lot of times when, in particular non trans or non
queer people talk about transexperiences, it's probably 90%
of the time overdramatized andfocusing on the struggles of
being trans, you know, what arethe experience like to
transition, the hardships, therelationship struggles, things
(03:32):
like that. And we don't oftenget to celebrate a trans CEO, or
like a trans woman excelling inher career, or, you know, just
the mundane things of like beingable to go to a grocery store
and not get misgendered, like,little things like that give
people hope and give peoplecomfort. And it's easy,
(03:54):
especially in the day and agethat we currently live in where
everything is on social media orput on the news, it's easy to
only focus on the stuff that'sgonna get people either angry or
sad. Like, those those twoemotions are what kind of fuels
that fire. But for myself, Ilove seeing those kind of like
(04:15):
more mundane, and I agree withZoe, kind of like not normal
people experiences, but like theaverage Joe going out in the
world and being like, you know,I'm just living.
I'm just doing me, you know?
Emma Stanley (04:27):
And it's it's interesting you mentioned angry
and sad. I think I would addvictorious to that. There are
just as many sort of clickbaitemotions that that feel good.
But, again, they get focused onso heavily. We ignore this the
after the happily ever afterpart of it where it's just
you're just living your life.
You just wanna go to IKEA orwhatever. So when trans people
(04:51):
who are in the mundane part oftheir lives, where it's not
necessarily the the focus oftheir existence anymore come out
and say, hey. I'm I'm out. I'mliving my life. I don't really
have amazing story for you, butI do exist.
It gives that visibility andthat representation that we're
(05:13):
usually missing in entertainmentmedia.
Isaac Cook (05:16):
Yeah. Well, it also brings up that idea of like what
comes next, right? Like, sayyou're a trans person transition
and also socially transition. Soyou socially transition, you get
your support people, you'recomforted, you go through that,
the systems in place and thebarriers, and then you medically
(05:38):
transition, you go through thosesteps, and then it's like, what
next? Right?
Like, you're going into thosestages of your life. And I know
both kind of me and you are kindof in those stages now at our
inner lives where we're notnecessarily needing to put so
much fuel into into being like,Okay, I need to get like my name
changed, or like those like keyparts of the transition. Like
(06:00):
afterwards, we're like, Okay,like, now we're in our careers.
Like, now we're just trying tobuy a house or move or like find
roommates or, you know, buygroceries, like things like
that. And it's interesting.
Like, it's an interesting,unique experience that I think
all trans people go through. Andthere's so much
intersectionalities as well,intertwined with that, that that
(06:22):
makes that what's next sounique.
Emma Stanley (06:26):
Yeah, I think the focus is so laser targeted on
the coming out and the initialexperience and the interesting
part, basically. Yeah. Thedramatic part that we lose that.
So it's good. I mean I mean,look at the holidays that we do
have.
We have other than, the day ofvisibility, we have national
(06:48):
coming out day or internationalcoming out day and the Trans Day
of Remembrance. So it's likecoming out and when we die.
Those are the interesting bitsthat the rest of the world is
actually interested in. The restof it is just like going
shopping and no one cares. Forpeople who are still struggling
with it, still questioning,still trying to find their
moment to to be themselves, Ithink that showing that you can
(07:14):
just live your life in a waythat is not dramatic, it's not
an inspirational story, isincredibly important.
Isaac Cook (07:25):
Yeah. And I and I think on that too, like there's
there's always a tricky ideathat everyone wants to be an
advocate and everyone wants tobe their own advocate, but some
people like aren't good atadvocating for themselves and
people automatically assumelike, if you are a trans person,
then you should be like the keygo to for like, everything and
(07:46):
anything related to this idea.But there's also the fact that
like, when you're trans, likeyou don't just come out once,
you don't just come out twice,you come out in multiple
different stages of your life.And a lot of times people
transition more than once. Like,it doesn't just happen that, you
know, you identify as this, andthen, you know, twenty years
(08:10):
down the road, you're goingstill be identifying as that
same thing.
Like, your identity fluctuatesand changes. Like, I guess, I
think the best way for me maybeto explain it to people who
maybe aren't as intertwined withthe trans community is that, for
instance, for myself, When Ifirst came out as a as a baby, I
(08:30):
was I think fourteen twelvemaybe and I was like Okay, I
have this like preconceivednotion of like who I want to be
when I'm like older. And thatwas comprised of being like,
basically as close to a cis manas I possibly could as someone
assigned female at birth.Because when you're younger, and
you're taught about, or maybenot taught about trans
(08:52):
identities, you automaticallythink, if I'm X, I have to be
the complete opposite of that.
Emma Stanley (08:56):
Yeah, very much.
Isaac Cook (08:58):
And then when you get older, you're like, Okay,
no, I don't actually have tosubscribe to very cis
heteronormative ideologies aboutgender identity and sexuality,
things like that. So, you know,like when I turned 16, I started
hormone therapy. And then I waslike, Oh, I really don't want be
(09:19):
a cis man. Like I identify morewith being like non binary or
like gender fluid and like youridentities change between that.
So that's another reallyimportant aspect of visibility
for people to consider is thatfeelings of yourself change over
time and the way that you aregoing to make yourself visible
to others or even visible toyourself is going to change over
(09:40):
time.
It's never going to be like aone and done event.
Emma Stanley (09:44):
I always get a bit sad when people talk about
phases because there's theclassic line. Oh, it's just a
phase and then the classicretort. It's not just a phase.
And I mean, it's a trickyconversation because the word
phase is kind of silly.Everything is a phase.
I was born a baby.
Isaac Cook (10:06):
That's a phase.
Emma Stanley (10:07):
Sounds really fun. Funny to say, but like I am no
longer that thing. Everybody,everybody has many identities
over the course of their lives.
Isaac Cook (10:16):
Mhmm.
Emma Stanley (10:18):
Adding the aspect of gender to that mix, whether
it's you're a parent of a youngchild, a parent of a teenager, a
parent of adult children, thoseare three different phases of a
life. But they're deep andthey're meaningful. And as we
grow and change, we go throughdifferent identities. And yeah,
(10:41):
so adding gender to that mix isjust one extra aspect of a
process that everyone alreadydoes. It's not a unique process.
It's just an added component.
Isaac Cook (10:53):
Yeah. And the concept of phases, at least to
me, almost seems like there'slike an expiration to something
or, you Yeah. Know, like I thinkpeople become too muddled up in
that idea that like, it'sexactly as you said, like the
stereotypical, like, it's not aphase mom kind of thing. Like,
like, we're not technically,yes, they are phases, but it's
(11:14):
more of like an evolution. Like,for instance, like, you're in
use like the job or like careerexample is that like if you're
in one role and then you get a,you know, promotion, you're in a
different role.
Technically, that's a phase ofyour life that's now changed,
but you're still growing onthose, like steps that you then
built up to that position. Andit's similar with like gender
(11:35):
identity, sexuality, your allthe different identities that
you might identify withreligion, things like that is
that you learn things and thenyou also unlearn things about
yourself and the world and otherpeople around you. So then you
use those, all the mix of thoseexperiences as you evolve into
hopefully being a better personfor yourself and the people
(11:56):
around you, to create yourselfand to make yourself.
Emma Stanley (11:59):
Yeah.
Cyn Sweeney (12:04):
Hey, Sis is all about connecting communities and
thanks to support from TD BankGroup, here is this episode's
Connected Community Moment.
Isaac Cook (12:12):
So we are thrilled to announce that for those
located in Nova Scotia, inpartnership with the Mental
Health Foundation of NovaScotia, Mount Saint Vincent
University, the Halifax PublicLibraries, Dalhousie Legal Aid,
and Gender Affirming Care NovaScotia, we are offering a name
change and gender marker clinicon March 31, which is the day of
TDOV, from 12PM to 4PM at MountSt. Vincent University. There
(12:36):
will be two fabulous volunteerlawyers on-site with thanks to
Dalhousie Legal Aid to witnessand sign pre prepared documents.
Emma Stanley (12:42):
If you check out the website, you'll find a link
that will allow you to make anappointment. We are able to
process walk ins, but it will bea lot smoother if you can make
an appointment before you comein on that was March 31. We will
have volunteers there to takeyou through the paperwork as
well. If you are just wanting togather information, that is
(13:04):
absolutely allowed andrecommended.
Isaac Cook (13:07):
You can learn more at simplygoodform.com/name_
gender _ marker underscorechange underscore pathway or by
checking the link in the shownotes. We look forward to seeing
you there. This has been a Jesusand TD Bank Group Connected
Communities moment becauseinclusion matters. So what's the
(13:28):
value of having a gender markername change clinic, especially
for our community?
Emma Stanley (13:34):
I don't know how many of the listeners have
interacted with Canadianbureaucratic systems, but they
are labyrinthine. The name andgender marker change process has
come a long way, but it is stilla lot of steps, a lot of forms
(13:54):
and a lot of very anxietyinducing spaces. One of the
first steps is having to go to apolice station to get
fingerprinted, and that alonemakes a lot of people so anxious
they will not want to continuewith the process. So there are
significant boundaries for thecommunity in accessing this and
(14:19):
accessing the ability to liveyour identity legally is a
profound part of a human'sexperience.
Isaac Cook (14:28):
Mhmm.
Emma Stanley (14:30):
Name, your legal name affects almost every area
of your life. It determines, inpart, your access to Medicare.
It determines how you'readdressed by official sources.
And not being able to live underyour own name is a deeply
frustrating experience. I had todo that for many years before I
(14:50):
was able to legally change myname, and it was incredibly
frustrating.
Because every time you walk intoa hospital, which if you're
transitioning medically, you doa lot. Yeah, they have to check
your legal name. And every timeyou walk into a bank and every
time you have to interact withpolice and that one gets even
more terrifying than the othersare certainly much more anxiety
(15:14):
inducing because the last thingthat anybody really wants to do
is stand out to police. Yeah. Soit's a thing that people who
have or I I want to say peoplewho own their own name rarely
see, and that is perfectlyunderstandable.
(15:35):
But when your legal name is notyour real name, you quickly
become aware of how often youare required to use your legal
name and how demeaning it is tohave to sort of wear your story
on your sleeve. It's it'sfrustrating. And access legal
access to your own identity issomething that a lot of people
(15:57):
need. And because of the processfor getting it, it is again
confusing and a bit scary. Sowe're trying to give people a
softer path towards just simplygetting access to a service that
is already available and a lotof people need.
Isaac Cook (16:18):
There's a lot of barriers that people don't
recognize in terms of likefinances of changing your name.
And also kind of jumping backagain to like geography. You
have to go to vital statisticsin Nova Scotia in particular.
There's only like one office andthat is in Bears Lake in
Halifax, which, you know, is notthe easiest to navigate, even if
(16:40):
you're in Halifax trying to getthere by bus. I did that when I
was changing my name and it wasawful.
It's tricky on those sides. Andthen also on the finance side,
you know, these are legaldocuments. Therefore, they need
to be legally verified bysomeone. Therefore, you have to
find someone to notarize thingsor to sign off on them. Finding
the people to be able to supportyou in this journey, because it
(17:02):
is it is a journey, is one stepof this.
And people like don't realizetoo, like how many IDs do you
have with your name on it? Or ifyou're, you know, an older
individual and you have anapartment, you have to change
all your names on thosedocuments, your credit card,
your debit card, your license,your passport.
Emma Stanley (17:20):
Going back and getting every certification
you've ever gotten. So yourdegree, your diploma. Yeah.
Every license that you that youhave under your name, the
permanent ones that you haven'tthought about in twenty years,
you have to go back and get allof those changed because you use
those certifications wheneveryou're applying for a job. And
(17:40):
then that comes up.
And we are still living in aworld where when your documents
don't match your introductionname so if I introduce myself as
Emma, but all of my olddocuments are in my old name,
That comes up in the interview,and it's really frustrating
because you can't just extend aninterview most of the time.
(18:02):
Right? You have you have yourtwenty, twenty five minutes. And
if I spend fifteen of thoseminutes explaining why my
documents are in a differentname, I only have 10 to sell
myself to a prospectiveemployer. And that is a huge
barrier.
That is a problem. One lastpoint on the gender marker
clinic is that if people justwant to come in who have already
(18:26):
gone through the process andmake absolutely sure that they
got every single step, I have atiny personal anecdote here. I
changed my name to two and ahalf years ago now, and I only
very recently found out while wewere building this clinic that I
completely missed an importantstep. And my SIN number is still
(18:48):
in my old name. So I have morepaperwork to do.
So in terms of just givingpeople some peace of mind, if
they do want to come in and justcheck to make sure that they
have in fact completed everystep, we can help with that.
Isaac Cook (19:02):
If folks are not Canadian or are from another
country, Cindy has a lot ofexperience with, you know, the
process for individuals who wereborn in Ireland and we're always
keen to learn more, you know,about where are the barriers
that exist in other countries,You know, how can we help
support that? Obviously, don'tbe expecting to be signing
(19:25):
paperwork that day, but we canat least help you understand
that process a little bitbetter. So I wanted to really
jump back a little bit becausewe spoke really quickly kind of
about like safety and securitywith identity. And there's one
(19:47):
quote that I've carried with meever since I first heard it, and
hopefully I am citing thisproperly. We'll include it in
the show notes, I have a link tothe tweets where it was posted.
But it goes, to be visibly queeris to choose your happiness over
your safety. And that's fromDeShaunLH on Twitter. And when I
(20:08):
heard that, I was like, shit,that's pretty true. And I mean,
there's a lot of we hold a lotof privilege here in Canada,
especially as we're both, youknow, white trans individuals,
but there's still significanttransphobia, in particular
(20:29):
towards like trans women andtrans misogyny throughout Canada
and North America that isgrowing to degrees that I would
have never imagined. To date,we'll also include some more of
the links down in the show notesin hopes who want to learn more,
but Florida recently, down inthe in The US, became the eighth
(20:52):
state to restrict transgendercare for minors, so individuals,
I believe, under the age of 18,but in some states, I believe
it's under the age of 25.
So it's becoming increasinglymore important to be visible,
but in the same breath, it isbecoming increasingly more
dangerous to be visible.
Emma Stanley (21:11):
Yeah.
Isaac Cook (21:12):
Just curious kind of your your takes on all this,
Emma.
Emma Stanley (21:15):
The world is becoming a scarier place and or
the world is becoming a scaryplace again is maybe the better
phrasing of that. And while wehave as a community this ability
to see each other, thisvisibility and this
representation, it is reallydesperately important for us to
(21:38):
form as many networks of supportas we can and organize in the
ways that we are able to thinkdefensively, quite frankly.
Think about what happens if thatcomes here, because it's so easy
to say that happens somewhereelse. Because years ago, we
said, Oh, that only happensoutside of North America. That
(22:03):
only happens in this specificculture or that specific
culture.
And now it's knocking at ourback door.
Isaac Cook (22:09):
And
Emma Stanley (22:11):
that is a little bit terrifying. There is a part
of me that is still saying,well, that's America, and that's
simply not the case. The culturewar that is happening right now
has us dead center targeted, andthat is terrifying.
Isaac Cook (22:28):
Mhmm.
Emma Stanley (22:28):
And the best that we can do is continue to be
visible, continue to organize,and continue to take action to
secure our own space within ourown culture. Yeah. It's
frustrating because I know thatthose are very vague terms, like
what is organizing to secure ourspace within our own culture.
(22:49):
The fact is, I don't know. And Idon't think any one person can
know.
You have to look around you, seewhat problems you can solve,
what structures you can buildand act on that.
Isaac Cook (23:00):
To that exactly, I think it's really looking within
our own communities andrecognizing like where are the
barriers that exist? Where do weneed more visibility? Where does
there need to be more transinformed decisions? And everyone
can rip on Canada and NovaScotia's healthcare, but I think
that's one of the biggest, like,prime examples of areas that
(23:21):
need trans informed care. Andschool systems, there's so many
spots that need to becollaborating working closely
with actual trans people, not,you know, legislatures that say
that they're representing thetrans populations, but actual
trans people, particular, youknow, like BIPOC and indigenous
(23:44):
trans people who can also helpsupport those pieces of
intersectionality that so oftenget missed.
Trying to convince people, Ithink, is one of the most
trickiest things right now inCanada, and I'll speak
specifically to a Canadian lens,is because a lot of folks in
(24:08):
positions of power fall underthat same mentality. I suffer
from it too sometimes. It's veryeasy to be like, that's a US
problem. You know, whenever wetalk about the news, like, as I
just said, like, we're talkingabout Florida, we're talking
about Southern states, we'retalking about areas that
historically haven't been thesafest for trans people. But
people don't realise how quicklythese ideologies trickle up into
(24:33):
Canada and how, you know, yes,while Canada and The United
States and The UK and likeFrance, we're all, you know,
we're all different countriesand regions and our own
government systems, buteverything is very intertwined.
And just because something ishappening 5,000 miles away
doesn't mean it can't happen inyour own backyard. And I think
(24:56):
we need to become more aware ofwho is at risk in our backyard,
and who we can do better toprotect when they are visible.
Emma Stanley (25:11):
It is an interesting thing with Canadian
culture that we, I think, aremore careful about what we
project into the world asopposed to Americans. And this
is not a criticism of Americans,just a difference in culture.
Canadians, I think, are betterat optics, but not necessarily
(25:32):
at all better in action. We getcaught in the trap of seeing
representation and assuming thatmeans things are okay, and that
is not the case. I had a reallyinteresting time.
About a year ago, I went home tomy hometown, and it is fairly
rural. And while everyone wasextremely good to me because, of
(25:57):
course, it's my hometown, theyrecognize me, so I don't need
to, tell people my story. Theycan see it. While I was in
public, everyone was incrediblynice. And then after about a
week, I started looking up oldfriends and.
They said, yeah, absolutely.We'd love to hang out. You can't
come by the house, though. Andit wasn't the people. It was
(26:19):
their families, their partners.
People who had known me my wholelife were great about it. And
and, you know, that shows howfar we've come. But they were
not as sure about theirfamilies. And so we could hang
out, but I couldn't visit. Andthis is in a town that is fairly
rural, but but the again, thepeople there are are great in
(26:42):
public.
Mhmm. And I do think that it'seasy to get caught in the trap
of seeing all of the diversityand mistaking it for inclusion.
Isaac Cook (26:53):
Yes. Oh, 100%. I think to a kind of as you said,
like it's a very it's it's aworldwide issue. Don't get me
wrong, but Canadian Canada inparticular has the issue with
being like, here are thenumbers. Here's the data.
We're good. Like there's transpeople here. There's indigenous
people here. There's blackpeople here. We're good.
You know, we don't have to
Cyn Sweeney (27:12):
do anything else they exist.
Emma Stanley (27:14):
We're Canadians. We're so great.
Isaac Cook (27:16):
Yeah, we're so nice. Are you though? Yeah. I'm like,
I yeah, Canada is very good athiding things. We do a lot of
covert, like transphobia,racism, things like that, and
not a lot of it's overt, and youkind of have to, you know, peel
(27:38):
away and open the book to reallyto really see what's actually
going on behind the scenes in alot of these places.
And a lot of times, you know, itis those small towns like I also
not as small as you, but I didgrow up in a smaller town. My
high school was way too big, butit's it's interesting when you
(27:59):
when you have a lot of thatsmall town mentality and then
you kind of are perceived aslike you're like the only trans
person
Emma Stanley (28:06):
in
Isaac Cook (28:06):
the area or you're like the go to resource for your
family or you know, you can youcan tell the rural versus urban
trans experience. Like they'revery unique in their own kind of
subset.
Emma Stanley (28:21):
Absolutely. And that's where you get into
intersectionality and theoptions and challenges that you
face in a rural setting are sodifferent from in a larger city.
And a lot of that, bringing itright back to the beginning, is
being able to find yourcommunity.
Isaac Cook (28:36):
Mhmm.
Emma Stanley (28:37):
Small towns are isolating and Yes. That is not
fun.
Isaac Cook (28:42):
Well, I remember there was someone recently did a
surveys. Everyone loves surveysthis time of the year. I don't
know why. Maybe, you know, end
Emma Stanley (28:52):
of fiscal I love three days or surveys in the
morning just for fun.
Isaac Cook (28:56):
I know. Listen, I literally I think I was sent
like at least three or fourtoday. Anyways, a little off
topic, but there was a surveybeing done for like a rural
community in Nova Scotia andthey were like, what can we do
better? What other resources canwe provide these people? And
these people as in trans people,queer people as in myself.
(29:18):
Not to other myself,
Cyn Sweeney (29:19):
but crazy. I
Isaac Cook (29:21):
know, I know, I know. Anyhoo, what we can do to
help queer people in general inthe in the community. And one of
the biggest things that Iflagged that I was like, there's
literally nothing. If you askanyone for like, where can I go
for like, queer support? They'relike, go to Halifax.
It's like, where can I go to seea doctor that is at the very
(29:44):
least informed of what HRT isfor a trans body? They're like,
Go to the sexual health clinicin Halifax. I don't know. There
are no resources in rural areas,so then everything is sent to
this one area, which then putsso much pressure on those
(30:05):
resources in that one specificarea because they're not
geographically spread around,nor are they supported if they
try and start up. I know I'mgetting on a little bit of a
side tangent, but everythingkind of relates back to the idea
of visibility and if we don'thave resources in these areas,
how are you expecting people tobe comfortably visible in these
geographic if they have to go,like in Nova Scotia to Halifax
(30:28):
to be properly visible and to beproperly Why are we turning
around and being like, Whyaren't there any trans people
here?
Meanwhile,
Emma Stanley (30:38):
They said they put them in a truck and ship them to
the city. Yeah, exactly. Isn'tthat weird?
Isaac Cook (30:42):
Yeah, this is weird. But it's like I just like I look
at like Sydney, Cape Breton, forinstance, which is four or five
hours away from Halifax. I knowpeople who used to have to drive
like, biweekly to monthly to getlike testosterone shots or, you
know, estrogen pills and stuff,they could only get it
prescribed in Halifax. We'reslowly getting better at
(31:07):
teleconferencing and stuff, butit's still like, it's not there
yet. That's why
Emma Stanley (31:11):
they're Health not there care is an issue. Yeah.
And we're starting. I don'tthink I mean, I would love to
see the healthcare change andand become more accessible. Of
course, we're Canadians.
Health care is is pretty much anissue for everyone and and rural
health care in particular. Weare trying to get more support
programs out to rural areas. Forexample, Thrive. Shameless plug.
(31:37):
I run a program called Thrivethat is in partnership with the
Mental Health Foundation of NovaScotia.
It is a program to try andintroduce queer youth to the
skills that they need to find ajob. And one of the explicit
focuses of Thrive was to get itout to the rural areas and not
(32:00):
have it entirely be containedwithin HRM. And that's been more
challenging than anyone on theteam had expected at the
beginning, and we're trying toremedy that now. But the
momentum of everything alreadyrolling towards the city is
(32:20):
really hard to fight against.
Isaac Cook (32:22):
Yeah, it's trying to find the right individuals or
the right groups to be able tothen perse that. Like just
thinking of like a marketingcomms lens for myself, like
being able to tap into thoserural communities and find the
individuals in those communitieswho then feel comfortable opting
in. You know, if it's a youngerindividual living at home, maybe
(32:42):
they're not out yet becausethere's not the resources of the
community to get the support, sothen they would have to, you
know, to partake in a programlike this. I mean, obviously we
don't require people to be outto everyone around them. They
just have to simply selfidentify.
But in a lot of instances, youknow, if they're sitting in a
meeting or talking to someoneonline and the parent or
(33:04):
caregiver comes in and asks,know, what are you doing? And
you have to like, you know,explain that to them. It can get
into some tricky conversations.So it's trying to find the right
ways to deliver programs tothese individuals meet them
where That's they're definitelylike a universal struggle, I
(33:25):
think, for anyone trying todeliver programs, and especially
those that are not just in NovaScotia but across Canada at
large, is that it's alwaystypically the city centres or
those larger urban locationsthat, you know, get the most
uptake in terms of, you know,2SLGBTQ programming, because
(33:48):
there's just more people whowill opt in in those areas. You
know.
Emma Stanley (33:53):
And it's a vicious cycle. They get the funding, so
they get the people, they getthe funding. Yeah.
Isaac Cook (33:59):
And they get the numbers so that they can keep
the funding. And
Emma Stanley (34:01):
goes and it and it goes.
Isaac Cook (34:02):
Yeah. And it's just this continuing cycle. And it's
trying. It's it's trying to findways to also represent these
communities appropriately tofunders to be like, hey, like
there's a huge, huge gap that weneed to be recognizing and then
putting funding into supporting.Kind of as we've been talking
about for the past thirtyminutes is that it's like an
(34:24):
iceberg, right?
Like this is like the problemwe're having. But at the
underneath there's like, youknow, health care, school,
education.
Emma Stanley (34:33):
But we put pronoun pins on. You're fine.
Isaac Cook (34:35):
Oh yeah, we're fine.
Emma Stanley (34:37):
Haven't you seen the pronoun pins?
Isaac Cook (34:39):
We do the rainbow
Emma Stanley (34:39):
sidewalks. We're good.
Isaac Cook (34:42):
Yeah, we did the rainbow sidewalks in June and
then they wash away by August.We're fine.
Emma Stanley (34:48):
Because deep systemic problems are always
solved by sidewalk
Isaac Cook (34:51):
chalk. Absolutely. So jumping back to thrive
because I think this is kind ofa perfect opportunity to be able
to talk about programs like thisand also shameless plug because
I think it's a really greatprogram that like I think more
(35:12):
people need to know about is sokind of as we said, target
demographics obviously are, youknow, 2SLGBTQ plus individuals
under the age 25.
Emma Stanley (35:25):
Yeah, 16 to 25 is the group we're focusing on. So
sort of end of high school andbeginning of your career.
Isaac Cook (35:33):
Gotcha. And then what are the goals of like what
folks partaking in the
Cyn Sweeney (35:37):
program learn out of it? Like, can you maybe give
people like a quick run throughof like
Isaac Cook (35:41):
what they can expect?
Emma Stanley (35:44):
Thrive is a free program. It's five weeks long.
It's entirely online and mostlyasymmetrical. So that means that
the lectures are pre recordedand the assignments are graded
when you finish them. It takes acouple hours a week to do.
(36:05):
And what it does is give theparticipant the skills and
confidence they need to getthrough their first interview.
So we take it right frombuilding a resume with new
algorithmic hiring in mind. Wehave a surprising number of
(36:26):
participants who mentioned thattheir parents are still telling
them to like a go in and ask tospeak to the manager or bug them
every day until you get a job,which is like I'm I'm sure it
was maybe in rural towns. Yeah,it's it's the kind of advice
that was absolutely relevant andit's being given in good faith,
but it's unfortunately just notthe case anymore. More and more
(36:49):
hiring managers aren't actuallyallowed to see applicants until
they get through an algorithmicprocess.
So we're building with themodern world in mind. And again,
we take it right from resumebuilding, researching your
company all the way up to a liveinterview, which will be with
volunteer hiring managers fromaround the community. So when
(37:15):
you leave the program, you havea certificate of completion, you
have a work reference fromSimply Good form, and you have
finished a live interview for arealistic but not real job. And
it just gets those first dayjitters out of the way so that
(37:37):
when you go into your first realinterview, you have one under
your belt. And you don't have tobe as nervous about the process
because you'll have done itbefore.
And that's been really usefulfor our participants so far.
Isaac Cook (37:51):
Yeah. And maybe just for folks who might not be
aware, and I'm going to takethis from kind of your
perspective, is why the focus on2S LGBTQ plus individuals? Like
what would you say are kind ofthe unique struggles that queer
individuals face trying to findemployment? Like maybe just give
(38:13):
a quick kind of overview of why.
Emma Stanley (38:15):
Yeah, absolutely. You actually I forgot two super
important parts and they answerthis question, so that's
perfect. When you are a queerand you are in your late teens,
the fact is it is more difficultto build networks. Networks are
what get people into theircareers and advance their
careers more than any other partof your life, including your
(38:39):
qualifications, including yourtraining. It really very much
still is not what you know, butwho you know.
And this isn't to say that it'sall nepotism. It's opportunity.
If you don't know that someoneis hiring, then you can't apply
for the job and you find outwho's hiring largely through
your networks. So a large partof our programming is teaching
(39:04):
queer youth how to buildnetworks that are available to
them as they are typically,especially for trans and non
binary youth, locked out of alot of the traditional means of
building them. And that is ahuge challenge for queer youth.
And because of COVID, because weall love talking about the after
(39:25):
effects of COVID, the moretraditional means of building
networks and experience likevolunteer opportunities dried up
for two years. And we have alarge cohort of young people who
have not had the opportunitiesto socialize and network build
that people have had in thepast. And we're trying to fill
(39:46):
that gap. The second largebarrier that queer youth find is
finding an inclusive business towork for. So part of the program
is and I hope businesses are outthere are listening to this
because I am training them tofigure you out.
Isaac Cook (40:07):
Are
Emma Stanley (40:09):
teaching them questions they can ask specific
pointed questions they can askin interviews to find out if an
employer is actually inclusiveor if they just put a pride
sticker in the window once ayear. That's been honestly an
extremely rewarding part of theprogramming. It's questions you
can ask a little bit of readingbody language, and researching
(40:32):
the company and seeing whattheir actual credentials in
inclusion are before you evenapply.
Isaac Cook (40:38):
Yeah, I personally love that so much because no one
talks about it like at all. Oneof my favorite things to say to
people, because I've done quitea few interviews my myself, but
then also like supporting otherpeople through like the
interview processes. Interviewsare not just for the interviewer
(41:01):
to learn about you. It is alsofor the interviewee to interview
the interviewer. This is goingbe a tongue twister to learn
more about not only the role,but also who that individual is.
Are you going to be reporting tothem directly? If so, what is
their teaching style? What istheir learning style? And then
also, it's exactly as you said,like, is this company a safe
(41:22):
space for me? Is this companygoing to respect me?
Is this company going to createmore barriers in the job? And as
I said, like, no one reallytalks about that. They're just
like, if you're queer, get ajob, take whatever first job you
can get and then run with that.But, you know, in modern day,
(41:44):
and this kind of goes back tothe idea of pride and queer
inclusion. It's three sixty fivedays a year, 20.
So if you're, you know, sayingyou're inclusive, and you might
have a diversity and inclusionpolicy, how often do you
actually use that policy andimplement it into your everyday
practice, including hiringpractices, and not just have it
(42:07):
as like a footnote on yourwebsite?
Emma Stanley (42:10):
Very much.
Isaac Cook (42:11):
Yeah. If anyone is looking to support the Thrive
Program either as a participant,as a volunteer, or simply help
support the program as it is,growing, you can learn more
about it atwww.simplygoodform.cathrive. So
(42:37):
to kind of end this episode, aswe've focusing on a lot of
pretty So heavy topics,especially for you know,
listeners who who are members ofthe community, in particular,
the trans and non binarycommunity, is that to understand
that there is community outthere, regardless if you're in
rural or not, you know, Emma andI, I think are pretty good
(42:58):
representations that therethings do get better if you're
in a rural area. But regardlessof where you are, where you're
at in your journey, where youare at in your evolution and not
phase of your life, is thatthere are people out there who
hear you and they see you andyou may not hear or see them,
but they still acknowledge thatyou exist and that you're valid
(43:20):
in whatever stage of yourjourney that you're on. And that
one experience doesn't representthe experiences of all.
You know, as Sin and I have saidmany times on the podcast is
that I speak to only my ownexperiences, and I always
encourage others to share theirown as we're reflecting on TDOV
(43:40):
is to really recognise who inyour community is visible,
applaud them, celebrate them,but also look and see who isn't
visible and who isn't able to bevisible, and recognising what we
can do better to support thosepeople in making them visible or
safely visible.
Emma Stanley (43:59):
And I just want to add that it is incredibly easy
to get overwhelmed by the amountof scary news that is coming in.
But try to keep in mind that ifyou are out there and you are
feeling afraid, you do have acommunity at your back. Reach
out and find them.
Cyn Sweeney (44:16):
That's all the time we have today, folks. Thank you
for joining us for anotherepisode of Hey Sis.
Isaac Cook (44:22):
The conversation doesn't have to stop here,
though. If you would like to getin touch with us to ask us a
question or share your story ona future episode, you can email
us at connectsimplygoodform dotcom or visit us on our website
at www.heysis.com.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.