Unpacking progress: Navigating True Inclusion in Finance

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her) (00:01):
Welcome to TransCanada Stories. I'm Cyn
Sweeney, and I'm joined by thelovely co host, Emma Stanley.
And in TransCanada Stories,we're all about going beyond
binary and telling stories oftrans people as people. Welcome
to the show.

Emma Stanley (She/Her) (00:21):
Today, we are joined on TransCanada
stories by Laura Whiteland.Laura is the first openly trans
portfolio manager and financialplanner in Canada, as well as a
grassroots activist for queerand trans issues. Laura is the
founder and principal financialplanner of Inclusive Financial
Planning. She's also a prominentfinancial professional. Laura
holds several professionaldesignations and is a recognized

(00:44):
expert in her field appearing inmedia like The Globe and Mail,
National Post, CTV News Network,CBC Radio.
And if that weren't enough,she's a media ambassador for
Financial Planning Canada,financials leading financial
planning organization. Laura isthe recipient of the Queen
Elizabeth 2 Platinum JubileeMedal for her work on the
2SLGBTQIA plus community inrural Nova Scotia. Welcome to

(01:09):
the studio, Laura. So as someonewho's in the transgender
community, as a transgenderwoman, I feel like there's a
strong pressure, a very strongpressure these days to sort of
industrialize our own queerness,that if you're, in health care,

(01:29):
you have to be in queer healthcare. And if you're in finance,
you have to be in inclusivefinance.
And and there's this, like, youhave to bring in this element of
yourself to the business world.It is non optional if you are
open about who you are. Do youfeel that pressure, where you
are in your business? And and aswe are just talking about, I I
kind of know that you dobecause, of pressures that

(01:53):
you're receiving from outsideto, like, serve as a DEI
consultant when that is veryspecifically not your job. How
do you navigate that?

Laura Whiteland (She/Her) (02:06):
Yeah. I think there definitely is
pressure, you know, justexisting in the rooms that you
exist within, and you're theonly trans person. And you're
looking around, and everyone'skinda, like, looking at you
whenever those topics come up,and we'll use a lot of emphasis
around those topics. Yeah. Ithink you do end up kind of
wearing that, and everyone kindof looks to you.

(02:27):
I mean, I you know, actually,you know, I guess to talk about
kind of like the inclusivefinance part of it, like the
really where I come at it fromis not so much, specifically
like trans inclusive. It's more,about, like, being inclusive of
everyone and being welcoming.Like, I find financial advice
generally is very hard toaccess. And, I would actually

(02:51):
say a majority of my clientsaren't queer or trans. They're
just folks that either can't getadvice elsewhere or really like
working with me or kind of thedifferent perspective I bring.
So I feel like there'sdefinitely pressure in a lot of
spaces, but I think, you know,when I'm working 1 on 1 with a
client, is actually probably thespace there is the least amount

(03:12):
of pressure.

Mhmm. And when you get into spaces
outside of business, like atconferences or or, in other
meetings, do you find people areoften asking you for advice
that, like, again, is just sortof outside the scope?

Yeah. I think maybe, I sometimes feel
like you're kinda like theguinea pig. Mhmm. Especially
even, I find even in a lot oflike professional spaces, you
know, when you're inconferences, even if it's, you
know, very queer centric, it'snot uncommon to be, like, the
only trans woman in the room. Sothere's kind of like, you know,
even if there's other, you know,non binary and trans masculine

(03:57):
people around, there's stilleven less, like, trans feminine
people in those spaces.
So, yeah, I do often find, Ithink, people are kind of
looking for it. And at somepoint, you know, you just kind
of have to be like, woah. Like,this is not actually what I do.

You know,

I try and be helpful. I try and be,
like, you know, open. And Ithink you have to be. I think
when you're in those spaces, youreally like there you can only
be so obstinate for so longbefore it, like, impacts others.
So I very much am, like,conscious of that fact of, like
Yeah.
You know, in for some people,like, I might be the first,

(04:36):
like, trans entrepreneur they'redealing with or the first, like,
trans business owner. And andthat's a dynamic that they're
not used to. And if I give off areally bad impression, then, you
know, you can just they'll justpaint that paintbrush, like, the
whole way along. So I do feelthere's maybe a bit of pressure
to be more polite about it and,you know, sometimes kind of help

(04:56):
people on the way and maybe hopethat they'll figure it out of,
like, this isn't really what Ido.

So do you notice, like, then like, is
there a difference than if younotice someone who's just
cognizant going in and, like, Iit's like, I don't wanna make a
mistake and they are asking fromfrom that point of view. Are you
more kind of patient with thator, you know, or is it just
like, okay. Yeah. I'll I'll handI'll I'll answer this, but I'm
cutting this off now, and I'mgonna tell you where you can go

(05:23):
to get this information.

I mean, the cognizant of, like,
not wanting to make a mistakething, I feel like is I feel
like that's an idea that maybelike sis people bring to the
table of, like, they feel likethey can't offend me. And I'm
like, the the things you'regonna offend me with are not the
things that you think. Like, ifyou come up and you say
something, like, terrible to me,like, that I deal with that

(05:46):
every day. I don't care aboutthat. It's like all of the,
like, other little things that,like, just make me uncomfortable
and, like, remind you that youdon't belong there are, like,
the things they're notapologizing or acknowledging or
dealing with.
So, like, I don't know. It it'shard to say, like, somebody's
coming up with, like, a 100%innocent and, like, just, like,
seeking knowledge when they'relike, hey. I'm gonna come and

(06:10):
talk to you to, like, justifysome, like, racism or something
else or, like, whatever weirdthing they're gonna come talk to
me because, like, I've beenvulnerable in some other space
in a conference. And then theyfeel like they can just kind of,
like, download all of theirdiscomfort onto me and be like,
oh, you know, I just, like,don't know how to deal with
this. And I'm like, oh, okay.
So it's hard to really know thedifference of, like, I've often

(06:34):
felt in my own life, myintentions have never mattered,
so no one else's. I I don'treally worry about other
people's intentions. Because noone cares about mine.

Like, Cynthia, what you're talking
about where where whereknowledge seeking is okay. Let
me start that again. Anotherthing that occurs to me is
knowledge seekers is somethingthat I approve of. The problem
with asking someone, especiallysomeone who's not a DEI

(07:06):
professional to provide that,often without a lot of warning
is that the first mistake thatpeople have made is look it up
first. Just Google this.
Like, you do not need to makethis someone else's job right
now. In the same way that I donot walk into doctors
conferences and ask them aboutthis weird mole. I just it's

(07:28):
just, like, it's a sitcom jokefor a reason nobody likes that.

So would it be a parallel to, like, say,
for example, when you andKendall, I think, were at the
Halifax Shopping Center and youwere doing something for pride
last summer, and I think somepeople came up to the table and
then they started going offabout, yeah, we're really
supportive and my friend's transkid is this. But I often wonder
about this and that, and they'vebeen up, you know, and they
start jumping all of that. Isthat, like, I'm kind of feeling
like is that that I get bringingThere's like

there's being an information resource,
which personally I don't mind,but again, that is my job, and
there's being free therapy forpeople's doubts, which is very
much not my job, and and thatline's hard to draw and people
do walk over it sometimeswithout really meaning too. I
get that, but it is reallyuncomfortable because then what

(08:16):
am I supposed to do? Like, no,you're a pretty bad person. So
that's what I've been no. I'mnot gonna say that.
I wish I could say that. I wishI had, you know, the the the
hutzpah to say that, but, no,that's not happening.

Well, and when you're in the room, I
feel like

like trying to equivocate someone
else's discomfort, and I don'treally want to.

It is a fine line though. Is that sorry.
Go ahead, Laura. Yeah.

Yeah. I was just gonna say, I I think
the unfortunate thing though isthat, you know, when you're in
those spaces and everyone hasmade it very clear that you are
different or don't belong, it'slike, Hey, somebody just kind of
walks up and, like, throws theiremotional baggage in your face.
And then like, you know, like,you're just like their emotional
steward. And then if you don'tlike reciprocate and like help
them deal with it, then like,they're just gonna double down

(09:08):
and like make it even worse foryou in those spaces. So it's
kind of that, like, yeah, Ithink there's the pressure that
you, like, have to deal with itin the moment.
And then, you know, so that andI guess the unfortunate thing
is, like, somebody thinksthey're taking up, like, 2
minutes of your time, butthey're the 30th person to do
that. And every time is, like,difficult, and you have to then,

(09:31):
like, process it because, like,they've just thrown, like,
everything at the wall at you.So.

Yeah. So realizing that, yeah, like, what
you're what you're putting uponthat person to satisfy your own
curiosity is, you know, like,you know, a microaggression. You
know, you gotta think about isthis person having to feel that
every single day. Or it's just,like, if I'm in the room and I
know, like, because I'm alwaystalking about, like, what to do
when you make a mistake and youdon't make a big deal, like, you
apologize, you'd move on. But Ido want people to know I'm

(09:57):
authentic.
Like, I do care. I, like, I,like, I do care that you're in
the room, Laura, and I would notwanna offend you. Or so I guess
I in every conversation, I gointo somebody, like, if I'm in
those spaces, but I just wannamake sure that they know, like,
if I mess up, call me out, tellme that I'm like, I wanna, you
know, I wanna make sure I amdoing right because I do care.
Like, I mean, it makes Yeah.It's important to me.

(10:17):
But because it's importantsomebody does that with my kid
and their friends and otherpeople in the community, you
know, or or that they do it withwith somebody that I'm working
with. Like, it you know, I justthink it's it's important all
around. So

I just I just wish cis people
would talk about gender. I said,I sometimes just was like, cis
people would talk about gender,you know, like when trans people
aren't around. You know what Imean? Like, I was not out for a
very long period of my life.And, you know, you never hear
cis people, like, just like talkabout gender amongst themselves.
Like, it's like, you know, it'slike when you're the trans in

(10:49):
the room and then somebody islike, oh, yeah, that's a thing
I've never thought of. Let meask all the questions or let me
like, oh, you've like shaken allthese thoughts loose in my head.
Or like, oh, that was a cooltalk you gave. I've never
thought about this even once inmy life. Let me just, like,
export everything I'm currentlyfeeling at you.
You know, I often like, beforewe started, you asked about me

(11:11):
putting my pronouns in. Kind ofthe the the thought I've always
gone with this. When I see 2 cispeople share pronouns without
knowing a trans person is aroundis when I will start sharing
pronouns. Because, like, I verymuch feel like it's something
done performatively by cispeople to be like, oh, we did
the trans thing now. We'veshared the pronouns rather than,

(11:32):
like, an actual, like, desireto, like, have a nuanced
conversation about gender.

I I I see where you're going. I can't
follow you all the way there. Ido think that there is a fake it
till you make it aspect ofinclusion that is very valid.

Laura Whiteland (She/Her): That's fair. (11:50):
undefined

You practice before you get good,
especially with language.Language does not come naturally
to to any of us, and it it takespractice. But

And I don't converse anyone else who
wants to do it. I'm just that'swhy I am, like, obstinate and
weird about it.

Well, I I have we had a meeting with, I
was with my my kiddo and with, aa doctor who we haven't seen
before. Like, they know theyknow us, like, well, like, we've
seen them in different circlesoutside of the profession. But
when we sat down in the room,she looked at me and she said,
hi. I'm doctor so and so. I usesheher pronouns, and she looked

(12:29):
right at me.
And we've had a 1,000conversations, and she knows my
or my son and my pronouns. Andshe said, and your pronouns are?
And she then confirmed with, andI was like, wow. That was really
cool. And it did.
It felt different because I'mlike, you just did it. Like,
that's just you do that all thetime now, and that is like, it
just felt good. Like, and ittook me back because it was kind

(12:51):
of the oh, do I just you know,we assume that we know, but she
just set a precedent right therethat this is my space, and I'm
gonna ask you whether, you know,you're gonna feel uncomfortable
or not. But mhmm. Yeah.
I mean, she works in the field,but still, I just thought it was
a really great she's, kindasetting by example. Yeah. But

Alright. Thank you so much for indulging
me, on on jumping into the thesticky stuff right away. I
honestly am never really good atthe, at the preamble. So,
Laurie, your business, we'rejust gonna work backwards now.

Okay.

And is gonna get really mad at me
because I have gone wildly offscript because I always do.

I'm here for chaos.

Chaos, we thrive in chaos. Chaos.

Yeah. So, Laura, your business is
inclusive financial planning.You mentioned earlier that it's
about getting advice to peoplewho would not normally have can
you expand on that a bit? Yeah.I mean, I worked in finance for
over a decade now.
I don't like how old

that already makes me sound. But
yeah, so, I worked at kind of intraditional, I worked in
banking. I worked in wealthmanagement. I've done the gambit
of, you know, many of theoccupations. I was very young,

(14:15):
you know, working with at kindof the highest levels of that
industry.
And, you know, we we whether ornot we wanna get into that, it
it came to a crashing halt atone point. And I'll I'll, let
the listeners maybe guess as towhy. And, I had the opportunity
to start my own business. I wasin a position where it made
sense. And, I was talking to mywife about it, and she like, the

(14:38):
first name that she came up withwas, like, you gotta call it
Inclusive Financial Planning.
And I was like, that's it.There's no there's no better.
I'm not gonna come up withanything better than that. And
it really, like, encapsulatesyou know, inclusion means so
many different things, andthere's so many different
elements to inclusion. Andreally, you know, in my mind,
what that means is anyone canwalk in.

(14:58):
I mean, we we work digitally. Soit's a metaphor for walking in,
but walking in as they are and,you know, working with people
where they're at, you know, withthe problems that they have and
with the goals that matter tothem and not really applying,
you know, any sort of bias oragenda on top of them. So, I
don't sell any, financialproducts, contrary to what a lot

(15:19):
of financial planners do. So Ijust work on either a project or
an hourly rate. So I workdirectly with my clients.
So and I also do some, you know,pay what you can work. So, for
the folks that, you know,there's a financial barrier to
maybe getting some help, I'malso happy to work with them as
well. So really the goal is tomake it as easy to understand

(15:40):
the financial situation you'rein and then make decisions.
Decision making is a huge partof the process, when I'm working
with anyone. And, you know, it'sreally about, centering it on
the person that I'm dealingwith.
I sometimes talk about, youknow, I walk in with a blank
piece of paper because I don'twanna bring in any preconceived
notions, which ironicallyactually runs contrary to every

(16:01):
bit of advice I've ever gottenin the industry of what you're
supposed to do. Because you'resupposed to walk in with like,
oh, this is what I think, andthis is what you should be
doing. And here's the best ideaof the day. And I really, you
know, rejected that and said,you know what? You know, when
when I sit down with someone,you know, the first thing I say
is, what's on your mind?
And we just start with that.

And, have you always lived in the
area? Is this, what made youchoose Churro for your business?

So I grew up in Dartmouth, actually.
So in the back when it wasn'tcool, and he was just, you

know, he was just poor.

You know, I I like to there's a
Johnny Cash song, the man inblack, and he he talks about,
you know, the folks lived on thehungry hopeless side of town.
That's that's where I feel likeI, I grew up. So, I mean, I I
worked, went to school inDartmouth. And then, you know, I
don't know if you remember post2,008 economics very well, but

(17:02):
jobs just didn't they just theyjust weren't there. So I had, a
short summer, like, job,working, downtown Halifax.
And I had the option to apply orsorry. I applied for a job, and
I had the, option to, I guess,accept it. And it was a, branch,

(17:22):
like, banking job in. So, that'swhy we're here. And just kinda
ended up liking living in atown.
Thanks.

Nice. So you commuted for a little bit,
and then you just uprooted andhopped on your or your horse and
went? Like, Johnny Cash.

9 months to get a job up here. So
I commuted for that time, andthen, she finally found a job.
And we, yeah, I commuted allwinter. That was the I started
in September, and we moved herein June. So that was really
bright.
And, yeah. I, yeah, we moved uphere once she got a full time
job, and it it took it took awhile.

So for listeners, like, it's the true
to Halifax, true to Dartmouth,what? We're like about 45
minutes, 50 minutes down thatroute?

It's a 100 kilometers. So, it's about
an hour in good weather andabout 2 in naught.

And about 4 minutes from some of the
driving I've seen in Halifax,but, I have lived in a lot of
countries, a lot of very bigcities, and this is the first
one where the driving scares me.

There's no there's not I mean, yeah,
traffic is funny. It's kind of a

I learned to drive a motorcycle in
Bangkok, and Halifax is wherethe driving scares me.

But see, Halifax is that weird mix
of, like, everyone's a littletoo nice that they don't quite
follow the roads. Like, in a lotof big cities, it's just, like,
you know, giver or die. And youjust, like, know what you know
what to expect becauseeveryone's just, like, doing
their thing. Whereas Halifax, Imean, you'll, like, randomly
stop to let you turn left andthen just, like, cause an

(19:00):
accident.

Yeah. Although those people are
getting few and fewer, I think,because now they're combined
with the post COVID road rage,and you think they're gonna
stop, and I'm just gonna walkout. But no. No. No.
Now they're a little New Yorkera bit and kinda threatening. But
True. Yeah. So you talked alittle bit about, like, what is
inclusive financial planning. Doyou wanna talk a little bit then

(19:23):
what what it looks like when itis not inclusive, and, you know,
what you really try to dodifferently from what, you know,
what you've seen when you wereworking with another, like, a
larger corporate organization.

Yeah. I I mean, one of the one of my
favorite kind of stories to tellis sitting in, you know, at a
conference with, you know, a1000 financial advisors. And one
of the segments, like thebreakout sessions was on, you
know, making financial advicemore inclusive. And the entire
thing was about how, like, theydidn't use the they didn't say

(19:57):
white, but it was about whitewomen and like how to give
advice to white women. Becauselike that is the frontier of
diversity and then likefinancial spaces of like, oh,
there's all these, like, whitemen who are dying, and their
wives are gonna inherit theirmoney.
Maybe we should figure out howto talk to them. It's like that

(20:18):
is so, like, we're not eventalking about white women in
general. Like, we're talkingjust, like, older like, widows,
basically, is, like, where theconversation is at. So, like,
basically, is, like, where theconversation is at. So, like,
yeah.
There there's really not even,like, a comparison. Like, you
know, me just existing in thoserooms is, like, just awkward, to
be honest with you.

So in today's TD Connected community
moment, we'd love to know, doyou participate in active
financial planning, and have anyadvice, that you can, share with
us here. We would love to learnif you have any, tips, tips or
tricks that, that you can share.If there's anything that stood

(21:06):
out to you from this particularshow, click the link that is in
the show notes, and we put it uphere on the screen. And, we
really look forward to hearingfrom you. Thanks for tuning in.

Me just existing in those rooms is,
like, just awkward, to be honestwith you.

And yet you bring so much to the space.
I mean, you can bring so I mean,I think the the broadness of
perspective can be so helpfulto, you know, I mean, I get
uncomfortable having thoseconversations. So,

For sure. And I very much feel like
it's my responsibility to notmake it uncomfortable and to
sort of, you know, try and bevulnerable in the space with
people and really acknowledgethat. And, you know, I talk a
lot about how with folks about,you know, how there is these
taboos and, like, actually justhaving the conversation that
it's like, it's okay to feeluncomfortable about this. You

(22:04):
know, even the way, you know, II do billing. I don't bill
people until we're at we'redone.
Like a plan, for example. Justto kind of say, like, I am in
this vulnerable space with you.Like, I'm not getting paid until
you have the option to just notpay me if you don't like what I
do. And there's a lot ofplanners even in the advice only
side that don't do that. Theywant a deposit or something.

(22:25):
And part of that for me is justsaying, like, I am along this
journey with you. It doesn'tmatter how long it takes. You
know, if we take 10 months to gothrough this, like, you don't
have to feel like, Oh, well, Ipaid for it, so I should do it.
Or there's money in the middleof this. Like, we just try and
take money out of theconversation between us so that
we can, again, focus more on,like, them as the person.
So, I really tried to, you know,as structurally as possible,

(22:49):
make it so that, you know, moneyisn't the conversation between
us. It's a conversation we'rehaving together.

I love that. So talking you were
mentioning how, a lot offinancial planning is based
around decision making, and thatthe conversation between the
financial planning community andbasically everyone except fairly
wealthy white cis, straight menis is shaky at best, mostly non

(23:20):
existent. So

Yeah.

The trans community and kind of the
queer community in general ispretty is historically
underemployed and under housed.And, in some of our workshops,
it's come up that there's alsothis sense of why bother a lot
of the time. Certainly that wasmy reality, and, the the

(23:45):
experience of of other transpeople that I know of a sort of
hopelessness about success.Like, yes, I will survive, but
there's no point in in thinkingabout retirement, or there's no
point in thinking about homeownership or starting a family
because those things are simplynot available to me. There's
this this block that gets builtup.

(24:07):
And so I think a lot of peopleor I get the impression that a
lot of people are in ourcommunity are kind of lacking
those skills. Do you feel likethere is the like, we need to
directly address the lack ofsort of basic financial skills
within the queer community orthe trans community
specifically?

Yeah. I mean, I think even within, you
know, using, the community as awhole, I think is somewhat,
incorrect. Because I do think,you know, the queer community
has more access to advice thanthe trans community does, a 100%
and support. And, yeah, there isa lot of like, so so economic
reasons why that is very true.And and talking about, you know,

(24:54):
underemployment and unemploymentand just having a very low
likelihood of, you know,profound success as a trans
person.
And that's why, you know, when Italk about meeting somebody
where their goals are, you know,even as you're talking about
like buying a house, retirement,like those are very like
traditional ideas of like whatfinancial goals look like. And

(25:16):
those are fine goals. But, youknow, I've worked with folks
that are in the community, who,you know, are just looking to
figure out how to budget orlooking to figure out like,
okay. You know what? I gotmyself through school, and I'm
working now.
Like, what can I do? And, like,what does any of this even mean

(25:38):
to me? You know, for some transpeople, it's really just like, I
wanna know that I have enoughmoney that if my boss fires me,
I'm not gonna lose my house.

Emma Stanley (She/Her): Absolutely. (25:46):
undefined

And, like, that's a that's a fine
goal. And, like, you know, thatmight still fit into the realm
of housing, and, you know, maybesome of that money eventually
does end up being a down paymentfor a house. But the immediate
need is, you know, security andnot necessarily, you know,
driven by a long term strategyfor wealth, but more just how do
I protect myself because theworld's not gonna protect me.

(26:06):
Mhmm.

So walking through the process. So
if somebody comes into youroffice and and they're they're
talking about their goals andthey have, say, a chunk of money
or they have, like, their I saytheir portfolio in, hi, Laura.
This is my monthly outgoings.This is my monthly incoming. Can
you you would look at that,would you?
And then say, okay. Here's whereI could see you could

(26:30):
potentially do some savingswhere maybe, you know and we
could cut back here and then youtalk about risk. And then you
could potentially say, would youlike to invest, like, a little
bit here for low risk, a littlebit that's a little bit higher,
but is that kind of then you'llcome up with a plan that way and
then run it for them or decide?Yeah.

So I don't sell any financial
products, so I don't like, Iwouldn't you wouldn't open an
account with me, for example.But I do help people, you know,
build out their own portfolios.You know, there's a lot of ways
to invest on your own now thatare just as good and cheaper
than, you know, what mostadvisors will do for the
majority of people these days.So helping, you know, really, on

(27:09):
the investment side of it, a lotof the values more in having
somebody help you understand,like, risk and asset allocation,
and then helping you through,like, the hard times, you know,
when markets go down and it getsscary. So those are all the
parts that I can still helppeople with.
I've done the other parts of itin the past just for regulatory
reasons, I I'm not able to dothat anymore. But, yeah, I mean,

(27:30):
as far as kinda going back intothe overall, like, what a
financial plan looks like, iskind of a holistic view of
everything. I think where I alsodiffer is I work on smaller
plans as well. So Mhmm. For somefolks, we just chat for an hour.
So I call it advice time. And,you know, we meet first. They we
talk through what they'relooking for. And if they're just

(27:51):
kinda looking for some generaladvice and to just talk through,
like, what's going on, then, youknow, we can just people just
kinda bring a list of questionsand we rattle through them, and
that's often, helpful,especially for younger people.
If we're talking about, like,you know, something like
budgeting, that can get into youknow, we do, like, a targeted

(28:12):
plan.
So that's, you know, cheaper.It's a a shorter engagement.
But, again, you know, we're notgonna plan for your retirement
at 32 when you're worried aboutpaying off your credit card
debt. So, you know, figuring outkind of what's the immediate
problem is sometimes wherepeople are at. So I try and give
that range of services.
Again, that's part of thataccessibility and that that
inclusivity. Mhmm. And you

can work with anybody anywhere, really,
right, because you're virtual?

Laura Whiteland (She/Her): Except Quebec. But I'm I'm (28:35):
undefined
actually you know what? I saw anannouncement today that might be
coming soon. We'll see. But no,Quebec has a different
regulatory regime for financialplanning.
So I'm, I'm working on it, butnot yet.

So focusing for a moment on the
sort of meta business ratherthan what you do, your
experience as an entrepreneur.Asking, like, did being trans
change your experience of beingan entrepreneur is is silly, is
is water wet. But was thereanything that sort of stuck out

(29:12):
to you or was a a a moment thatcrystallized the difference pre
and post transition, say, as anentrepreneur?

So actually, I've never been an
entrepreneur, pre transition.We, we bought our first
business, basically around thesame time I came in. Okay. Yeah.
So actually one of the firstconversations, my wife had to
have with her staff was that,she had a wife.
So that was, you know, that'sjust how we did it. We just went
We just went hard at it. Youknow, we did it the best slash

(29:43):
worst possible way, I guess. Sono, I've actually never really
been an entrepreneur andpresenting SIS before. So I
don't actually have thatexperience.

Were there any roadblocks that you
felt were were attributable tothat? And is is that something
that's on your mind? Or is itlike I find, when I engage with
that thought process, I tend toget tangled up. So I try and
just kind of push it away. Butwhere there's

a 100%. Like, yeah, you can you
can tell, you know, I mean, Iwas in business and in finance
before coming out. So, you know,I do know what those rooms, feel
like. And, I I mean, to kindaillustrate it, I was asked to
sit on, the board of the Chamberof Commerce, before coming out.
And through the the their kindof, onboarding processes when I

(30:39):
came out.
And that offer was neverdiscussed again, we'll say. So
no. The larger businesscommunity working as an you
know, existing as anentrepreneur is definitely a
much more of a closed doorexperience. Even, you know, I
would say, like in queer spacesas well, like there's still a

(30:59):
gap there that I think existsfor trans entrepreneurs too.

How important is it then for you to,
like, move like, to navigate in,like, some of the
entrepreneurial, like,networking opportunities and
that, because I know, like it'sfunny. I couldn't drag Emma out
to lots of different things andbut grudgingly sometimes. But, I
find, like, you know, it thevisibility, it's so important to
be able to, you know, you haveto do it even though, I mean,

(31:28):
like, we got comfortable notdoing it in COVID. How important
is it to you? Or is that a goal,like, that you like, you'd like
to be doing a little bit more ofthat?
Or

It's It's a hard thing because I work
with a lot of entrepreneurs, youknow, I would actually say kind
of my main business these daysis actually working, with
entrepreneurs. So, you know,talking about the planning part
of it. I've really expanded thatinto kind of a full, business
consulting suite. So I do workwith a lot of entrepreneurs, but
it's often in kind of, differentways that I run into them and

(32:01):
meet with them. You know, a lotof folks find me through my
website, which is probably themost reliable way, that I
interact with people that thenactually leads to business is
people that have kind of had achance to warm up to the idea of
me first, I think.
You know, when I meet people inperson, definitely like other
trans entrepreneurs, I think weget to have kind of an open

(32:22):
conversation. But once I get outof that space, it starts getting
a little bit dicier as towhether or not people
necessarily see value in what Ido because I do things so
differently. I think often theybring in their conception of
what financial planning and, youknow, what, you know, financial

(32:45):
management coaching andconsulting can look like. And
they think about it in kind of avery like, rigid, almost like
accounting, very traditionalway. And I really kind of, you
know, what I've talked about,about like the personal
financial planning, able tobring even more of that
creativity into, you know,entrepreneurial spaces.

(33:05):
And there are some people thatkind of instantly get it, and
then there's some people thatjust like instantly don't. And,
Yeah. It's hard to say, like, isthere value? It's you never
know. And that's kind of thething about networking.
But I will say, like, I Idefinitely probably hit my head

(33:26):
against it a lot more than youraverage entrepreneur does. And
yeah.

What do you mean to hit your head?

Just like the, time spent out and
connecting, doesn't necessarilytranslate into a ton of, like,
meaningful contacts that will,like, sometimes it does. And
it's, like, surprising and it'samazing. But then, you know, if
I go to, yeah, sometimes it'sjust like I get stuck in the

(33:58):
corner of a room and I talk to afew people and then awkwardly,
like, shuffle it. So, like, it'salways kind of a crapshoot.

Yeah.

And yeah. And it's like and those
room then, you know, thoseevents are the ones that are,
like, the most stressful anddifficult to be within. So it's,
you know, it's usually, like,when the panic attack finally
is, like, overwhelmed me, it'stime to drive home is kind of
the, like that's that's mymetric.

I did notice that all of the East
Coast trans people found eachother within about 20 minutes of
Defy's doors opening.

Oh, yeah.

We had we had the delegation going. I
have photos. It was awesome. Butit was interesting how we all
kind of, like, found each othervery quickly.

I think it's important to do, isn't it?
Like, to try and bring togetherif you're traveling. Right?
Like, to, especially, like, tobring together people or even
give the opportunity to connectbeforehand to know that you're
going. What do you think?

I certainly think so. I find that
finding other people in myposition is both rare and and
very cool.

I, no. I I 100% agree. I think
it's, the the same conferencethe year before was in Kingston,
and it was kind of the samething. There was, like, the
trans delegation at the backcorner of the room. We just
kinda, like, hung out with eachother for the 3 days.
So I think it's quite common.And part of it is that, like,
you know, some people may driftin and out, but for the most

(35:23):
part, it's hard to integrateinto those spaces, even if they
are kind of like queer centricspaces.

So Yeah. We connected when I saw you were
sitting, Well, I know Emma hadalready connected with you in
Montreal and Defy in July, but,that conference. We spoke on a
conference, a conference panelor an event panel this summer
during pride, hosted with theChamber of Commerce and the
CGLCC. And I think what reallystood out to me the most is that

(35:55):
with the panel being, you know,22 trans people and then one
person who is, a great member ofthe 2SLGBTQIA plus community.
And, like, just the the hugegaps in the idea of inclusion
and how far we've come, around,you know, the feeling of, yeah,

(36:18):
we're all doing so great andthat lack of, like, people
really getting it as far as forthe trans community and
understanding, you know, howreally that's not a reality for
everybody.
And I think that's one of thebiggest takeaways that I got
from listening to the panel.That was, you know, really
valuable. And I think a lot ofpeople well, people at the

(36:38):
table, I think, were feeling it,but were sitting with me as
well. What it you know, being,you know, up there and kind of
answering those questions, Ithink you you kind of, you're
really great at addressing it aswell and kind of focusing on
that in that room. How did thatmake you feel?
Like how?

How did it make me feel? It was very
stressful. Yeah, I definitelylike, I I kinda curled up into a
ball the next day and just likehad to recover. It's it's hard
to, like, output that muchenergy with confidence when you
know it's, like, rubbing againstthe grain for people. Yeah.
And I mean I mean, to set thestage a little bit more, she was
a self identified lipsticklesbian. Lesbian. So we're

(37:17):
talking about a very, you know,comfortable cis presenting, you
know, gay woman. And yeah, theredefinitely was a huge canyon and
experience of what's beingdiscussed. And one of the
conversations I feel likedoesn't come up a lot within,
you know, queer and trans spacesis the role of disclosure that

(37:43):
trans people don't have.
You know, CGLCC puts out a stata lot of, like, you know, a
third of, their business ownersthat they surveyed don't feel
comfortable coming out. Andthat's really something that I
don't feel a lot of trans peopleeven really get to think about.
You as a trans person, you don'tget to decide if someone

(38:04):
perceives you as cis or trans.And, you know, and also to talk
about, you know, being perceivedas cis is also not necessarily a
benefit. Like, it's verydestructive to, you know, who
you are as well to just belabeled as cis.
So you really don't get to likecontrol how you're perceived in

(38:24):
the same way. And I think that'swhat we were talking a lot about
is that like, you know, whereprogress has been, has been more
mostly for queer people. I mean,if you look at, there's a great
book by Susan, Striker,transgender history and the
challenges that, you know, transpeople were having in the
sixties seventies haven't goneaway, but they have gone away

(38:48):
for queer people. And thechallenges that queer people
were having in the eightiesnineties have gotten lessened,
but not for trans people. So,like, it's always just this,
like, constant history of transpeople kinda wearing the
consequences of progress, butnever really benefiting from it.
And, you know, I I think on thatpanel, you know, the 2 of us had

(39:08):
the opportunity to really justkinda say, you know what? Like,
who is this pro like, who whatis this progress?

I think it was a great opportunity for
that though. And I I I was gonnasay, I do think that you're very
confident and not dogmatic. Ithink it was an important
conversation, but I feel likelike the panel I feel like it
and I that's just observingthat, the best interests were
there, and it was a learning forfor a lot of people maybe in the

(39:35):
room. But I felt like it was, itelevated that event to me, I
think. It wasn't just yourtypical prescreen, preapproved q
and a.
It was real.

One of my least favorite sayings is
things are so much better now.And I've been to multiple
conferences now where it almostseems like it's a theme. And
talking about, you know, sittingin that, you know, back table
with all the trans people. And,you know, that theme of,
actually, I think literally thewords, things are so much better
now at that conference were saidlike almost every 20 minutes.

(40:12):
And, you know, around that tablewere people that, you know, they
were entrepreneurs because theircareers had ended because they
transitioned.
They were, you know,professionals that were
massively underemployed andmaltreated because they were
trans. And, you know, we'relooking around and we're like,
who what where is this better?Like, who is this better for?
Where when did this progresshappen and what are you talking

(40:34):
about?

It's a we versus us. Right? Or we and
them. Yeah.

And I and I very much think, you know,
you know, within the community,if we wanna talk about it as a
larger community, I think weneed to be able to have the
conversation that, like, thereisn't equal opportunity for
every letter of that alphabet.

So in today's TD connected community
moment, we'd love to know. Doyou participate in active
financial planning, and have anyadvice, that you can, share with
us here? We would love to learnif you have any, tips, tips or
tricks that, that you can share.If there's anything that stood

(41:15):
out to you from this particularshow, click the link that is in
the show notes, and we put it uphere on the screen. And, we
really look forward to hearingfrom you.
Thanks for tuning in. No. And, Imean, it it's interesting
because for me as a cis personbut a parent, I mean, that's

(41:36):
obvious. And I just can'tunderstand how it wouldn't be
obvious to everybody within thecommunity because, you know, to
me, that's, like, that's thesort of the biggest the biggest
piece of it is that where, youknow, where we're at for trans
inclusion. And that was kindalike where they were around gay
and lesbian rights back in theseventies.
Like, we're still, like, 50years behind or more. We haven't

(41:56):
I also

Laura Whiteland (She/Her): seventies, actually. Transness (41:57):
undefined
is still considered a, mentaldisorder, which was, you know,
queer people got that in theseventies. So, no, we haven't we
haven't caught up with that.

I think Emma and I, we were at the, plus
LGBTQIA plus, awards last yearat the Black and White Ellen. It
was just interesting because forthe amount of corporates that
sponsored or got up andannounced awards, Emma was gonna
start to, like, put up a sign ora ding for everyone that got up
there that couldn't say theacronym. Like, they just got g s

(42:30):
l g e t, but they had it maybeinserted in their speech, like,
20 times, but they and that wasmultiple people. And we just
keep going, do you not like, canyou not even say it? Like, why
are you here?

Do you remember the, Staples used to
have I think it was Staples hada button, and you would hit it
in

a Easy button. Word

or something. The easy button.
Right. I wanted to like, nextyear, I'm going to bring a
button and it's just gonna saythe acronym and they can put it
on the podium and they can justhit it when they need to say it.
And, yeah, there was there werelarge quantities of sympathy
there also because publicspeaking is a nightmare and a
lot of those people, it's nottheir job.

(43:09):
That sad. Maybe if you're gonnaput it in your speech 10 times
you should you should practice.And I think there is like I I
don't know I run into it a lot Ithink there is this idea that
inclusion comes withoutpractice. And then if you can't
do it without practice, you'redoing it wrong, and you should
be able to. And I think that weprobably should move past that

(43:33):
because nothing comes withoutpractice.
No fluency has ever come withoutpractice. And But I think

Laura Whiteland (She/Her): that's also the major stuff that (43:41):
undefined

on as a responsibility. Like, you must
practice if you want to be goodat this and also have have some
sympathy for it. This person isstill practicing. Your empathy.
If because shame

will shut it down. Right? Like, shame is
gonna just shut down thatfeeling of

Shame is highly likely really useful to
me. No. Use for it yet. I can'tpay rent. No.
Or but

or somebody that's learning, like
someone that's learning thatyou're gonna shame them.

They're just instantly gonna go back in
and go, okay, I can't get thisright. I'm gonna avoid the
conversations. I'm gonna keep myhead down, and I'm gonna just
try not to make a mistake. ButI'm gonna just avoid

the conversation is why well,
certainly in my experience, whyI haven't been hired for jobs
because someone's afraid they'regonna make a mistake, so they
just decide, like, I'm justgonna I'm just gonna not involve
myself, which is really, like,the definition of privilege. If
you have the ability to say, I'mjust not gonna deal with this
today, whatever that thing is,you have privilege in that area.
And that's what I was gonna I'mgoing to say. The the
conversation around

Laura Whiteland (She/Her): inclusion often, like, (44:42):
undefined
completely goes off the rails assoon as somebody's right to
privilege feels threatened. AndI do, you know, I've somewhat
challenged the idea of whenpeople talk about, like, you
know, you'll hear sometimes,like, rights aren't pie. There's
enough for everyone. But I thinkwe also need to talk about the

(45:05):
fact that, there are people inour society who feel they have a
right to their privilege andthey have a right to comfort and
they have a right to belongingthat they don't extend to
everyone else and that not allof us have. And, you know, there
is a cost to dealing with that.
And the cost is often borne bythe person who is not belonging

(45:26):
and who does not, you know,experience that privilege in
that moment. And, you know,folks that are sitting there
saying, oh, well, I wanna make adifference, and I want, you
know, the world to be moreinclusive, also need to accept
that that might mean they mightlose their, you know, right to
comfort at times. And that theymight actually have to be the
ones who have to experience thediscomfort that, you know,

(45:47):
marginalized people justexperience by existing.

I love that. It's like, yeah, comfort.
It's a risk, but that's allyou're gonna that's all you're
gonna lose is your feeling ofcomfort, but you're gonna you're
gonna gain. I know I mean, Ijust from my own, I grew up in a
small town. I grew up in,Brampton, Ontario.
At the time, it was a tiny town.Look privilege of being middle
class, family owned business,whatever. And, you know, didn't,

(46:14):
you know, I grew up thinking,okay. Well, we have these
rights. You have to work hardfor these pieces as, you know,
if you're working hard andyou're, like, playing by the
rules, which I guess, you know,I could.
Right? And but it was kind ofthat that light bulb for me,
like, when my kiddo came homeand said, hey. Like, this is my
reality. This is who I am. I'mtransgender.

(46:36):
And, like, that learning waslike, what do you mean? And
then, okay, trying to figure itout, but then all of a sudden
seeing the rights disappear. Andfor me, it was like, wait a
minute. These rights shouldapply to you. They apply to
everybody.
We pay taxes. We're here. Like,we're citizens of of and and it
was that was I mean, I'm ashamedto say, but that was a huge wake
up moment to me because I hadn'tI hadn't faced that before. I

(46:59):
hadn't seen that before. I'd I,you know, I'm for whatever you
know, I I can't say why, but Ican say, like, ever since then,
I'm like, I need to undo this.
This is not right. You know, formy and the idea that if I feel
this, other people must feelthis too. And so Mhmm. It's kind
of like make you know, buildingthat awareness, I guess. But it,
you know, it's embarrassing, Ithink, for people.

(47:21):
You throw shame on it as well,and it it kind of but it does
get to a certain point. I think,actually, Chris Cochran, no noir
had said that at some point.Like, you can't say, you know,
you're in your sixties or yourseventies and say this is this
is new to me. Because, yeah, ifit is new to you, like, at this
point, like, to it, like,there's enough of it going on.
There's enough around thatyou're you can can hear
depending on where you'reliving.

(47:42):
If you're in an urban center,certainly, the information's
there. It's around you. Look,you know, open your eyes and see
it and, yeah, and figure it out.

But I mean, I would you know,
Stonewall happened 55 years ago.

And we all have a supercomputer in our
pocket.

So, even the idea that there is this
like, Oh, you know, it's notknowing about it is also a
choice at this point. Likeyou've lived through, you know,
we as a society have livedthrough, you know, the civil
rights movement and had toconfront, you know, the
existence of racism for 60 yearsnow. And not to say that racism

(48:22):
didn't exist beforehand, butthat like visible and taut
discussions of racism haveexisted for 60 years. And yet we
can't seem to talk about it. Youknow, homophobia and transphobia
have been, you know, part of thenational record for 60 years
now.
And, you know, even longer ifyou want to include, you know,
European history. You know,these instances of hate and

(48:46):
discrimination have existed theentire time. It's the choice of
people to ignore them.

And that's bringing

They can't make the excuse that they
don't know it. They choose toignore it.

Bringing us back to the privileged
discussion. I think that theright to ignore it, especially
when it comes to my child is notready for that.

Oh. My

this this this person should be able
to ignore that person for aslong as possible, is ridiculous.

No. I

you don't get to ignore things. They
exist.

Right. If you're experiencing transphobia
at the age of 5 or 6, you theper like, the other 5 6 year
olds are able to, like, beexposed to what is this about
and what, you know, what whatshould you be doing that's
better. And, like, so we oftentalk, like, in the workshops. I
Emma talks about, like, the pinktriangle and the idea of it not

(49:45):
having been taught at all inevery section where whenever
we're talking about World War 2,which is something that has been
taught in schools for years andthat that's never been one small
minor piece that's been broughtinto the idea of

Yeah. I have been I started to, I just
have a splash page of some queerhistory, and I brought it up and
the number of times I havepointed at a pink triangle and
asked, you know, does everyoneknow what this is? I honestly
the first time, I swear it wasentirely rhetorical. I assumed
that every person knew basicallywhat this was about and it turns

(50:21):
out no not at all and I don'tknow when I learned that
certainly 30 years before mytransition, so I don't
understand. But that wassomething that I picked up along
the way quite by accident, andand to understand that that is a
unique position was reallysurprising to me.

Well, and I often find it interesting,
like, the black triangle hasalso seemed to have faded from
the community's memory. And alsothat the pink triangle was also
for trans people. You know, I'vehad queer people say like, oh,
you know, the pink triangle wasfor gay men. And it was not.
It's exclusively.

(51:05):
Yeah. Yeah. It was notexclusively, you know, their
badge to, to be born, brandedwith. So no, there's a huge
amount of history in there thathas definitely gone,
unremembered and, yeah.

There's a lot to be there. I didn't know
that actually. Thanks for sayingthat because I, I don't know if
I had thought about it eitherway of who specifically it was
for, but I didn't know that,yeah. But included the trans
people because I think I thoughtprobably back then, like, you in
that space and for, say, armedforces going overseas, and for
people there in, you know, beinglocked up, how many out people

(51:42):
would there be? And was it morelike, again, like, with the
fruit machine where people areassuming that you are pointing a
finger and saying, oh, you'retrans because you walk this way
or you talk this way.
How many people are actuallyliving out and freely then
anyway because of the laws

and the rights? They did have the, like,
shoot the Hirschfield Instituteat that point. So there were
there were I mean, there was notonly was it There was legal
recognition. They had they hadpassports, with with, like, they
were printing identificationwith with updated gender
information on it for Yeah.Trans people at the time.

(52:21):
It was experimental, and it wasonly in Germany. So there's
that, but there definitely wasan existence. Mhmm. Even that
far back.

No. And that's, the Night of Long
Knives, was actually veryreliant on the Hirschfeld,
Institute's documents.

What's that?

The Night of Long Knives. It was the
Nazi purge for queer and transpeople, in positions of power
and government and business. Andthey basically rounded up as
many queer and trans people asthey could find. And it was the
documents from the HirschfeldInstitute that led them to a lot
of the trans people. And it wasvery early, I think, 1932.

Okay. Interesting. I'll find a link,
I'll do some research, and we'llput it in the show notes.

Laura, it has been wonderful having you
in the studio today. It has beeneye opening and, a great chat. I
do hope we see you here againsoon. Thanks for coming in.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.

Great to meet you.

I didn't expect to get still lost
in the history, but, I guessthose are that those are part of
our stories. Right? That's thewhole that's the whole name of
the thing. It's coming fullcircle.

We got the title in there. Right?

No. Thank you both for having me.
And, yeah, hopefully, hopefully,I haven't worn out my welcome
too much. Sometimes people gettired of me. So

No. I'm already thinking, okay. When can
we have you on again? So this isgood. I lost track of time.
So it's, it's great. Thanks,Laura.

Well, thank you

very much for coming in. Bye.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Unpacking progress: Navigating True Inclusion in Finance

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Unpacking progress: Navigating True Inclusion in Finance

Stuff You Should Know