March 23, 2024 • 45 mins
Join our guest host, Christina Palma, and host April Fruchey as they navigate the contentious topic of deconstruction in modern Christianity. Unveiling the nuances between mere reflection and an outright rejection of faith in Christ, they urge listeners to approach the term "deconstruction" with caution. They examine how personal grievances can influence one's spiritual growth, the dangers of adopting a self-centric religious authority, and the vital distinction between constructive reform and the potential to drift from the Word altogether.
We address the inherent risks in consuming deconstructionist content, highlighting the need to remain alert in our spiritual lives and to ensure that our faith withstands the pressures of skepticism and societal change.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Simpliadify's podcast.
Our goal is to encourage womenas we navigate the messiness of
life through biblical studies,personal stories and practical
tips that bolster our walk withJesus daily.
Thank you for joining us in ourepisode today.
Hello and welcome back.
We are episode two in our newseries on popular cultural
(00:26):
issues in Christianity.
Today we are going to betalking about the deconstruction
movement and I have a guestco-host today.
It is my sister.
Her name is Christina Palma.
Hello, she agreed to just fillin this week for SB and I'm
(00:50):
excited because this is stuffthat we've talked about, you
know, amongst ourselves assisters, many times before, and
we have a little bit of personalhistory in a couple areas when
it comes to deconstructingpeople.
We know people.
These issues that we're goingto bring up, we have addressed
(01:13):
in our life personally.
So, yeah, we're going to jumpright in Deconstruction.
What is it?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, I guess it depends on who you're talking to
, right?
I feel like first of all, it'sbecome a very trendy word and
sometimes people might say itnot knowing exactly.
You know what it means to aperson deconstructing, or what
it means just to average Joe.
So I think there's definitelytwo definitions of it.
(01:43):
People, when they first hear it, just think, oh, they're kind
of rummaging through their faith, they're figuring out what they
believe, maybe taking out whatthey don't like, and then kind
of figuring out what the Biblesays or what Jesus says about
things and kind of establishingtheir own faith.
But I think to an actual personwho's really deconstructing,
(02:05):
it's a little bit different.
What would you think?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely, if you like, look on
the internet.
If you do hashtagdeconstructing and follow any of
the people who are truedeconstructors, you realize that
these people want nothing to dowith Christianity.
They reject the historicalChristian truth and faith
(02:27):
altogether.
And if they, if you were totell them that you're actually
just searching the scripturesfor answers, they would laugh at
your face because that's whatthey would say.
You're not true?
Deconstructing men.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I mean, like anything can be a little bit of a cult,
you know, in of itself in someregard, you know it's a social
contingent, if you will, that'sjust growing amongst
Christianity.
However, it can kind of suck inthose people who maybe think
they're deconstructing, butreally they're just kind of
(03:05):
learning what Christianity isand maybe having to filter out
some of the things that havebeen taught.
They don't want to walk awayfrom God, but they're kind of
maybe a better word to bereconstruct their Christianity.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Right or reform?
I mean think about theReformation.
What were the main leaders ofthe Reformation?
What were they doing.
They were going to the Bible tosee what was biblically accurate
and there is nothing wrong withthat, and you know that's a
good thing, right.
But to say that you'redeconstructing it means
(03:38):
something very different.
So we just want to make thatabsolutely clear.
Like, if you are in thatposition of not sure about what
you believe or why you believe,I would caution against using
that word deconstruct, cautionagainst listening to anyone who
calls themselves adeconstructionist.
(03:58):
It's kind of like a poisonreally.
It will suck you in and itreally becomes a continual
criticism of anything that hasto do with religion, and the
idea is that they believe thatanything that goes against a
(04:18):
personal belief is toxic.
You cannot call me a sinner.
That is.
You're toxic if you call me asinner, right.
It's oppressive Right.
The Bible says for all havesinned.
So obviously we know that thatis completely unbiblical, but
(04:39):
that's the thought processbehind a lot of the
deconstructionists.
Whatever offends me is toxic,okay, and saying that I am wrong
in what I feel and what I think, that's abusive.
So, you had an example of thehouse.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Oh, yeah, I mean.
Unfortunately, I feel likethere's just more and more
people around you who are goingthrough deconstruction or say
they are anyhow, which, let's behonest, deconstruction is just
a fancy word for saying I'mfalling away from the Lord, I'm
becoming a prodigal, like I'mrejecting, and that's nothing
new.
That's been happening eversince Christ came right.
(05:23):
People are walking away fromthe faith and the devil has just
dressed it up in a prettypackage and tried to insert it
into the church.
I think that's been a new thingthese inserted into the church,
but when Christians or quote,unquote, christians, I don't
know try to make it sound softer.
I've heard explained like thisthink of deconstructing as like
(05:47):
a house or an apartment and it'sfull of all this furniture and
it's cluttered and there's stuffyou don't need and stuff that
you know is not essential andyou're taking all of it out and
then you're only putting back inwhat you need and that sounds
you're like oh, I can understandthat.
There's a lot of things maybethat we've been taught in the
church that don't line withbiblical principles.
They've just been traditions,or maybe there are some things
(06:11):
that have been taught wrongly.
I think we can all know that,but, you know, making it sound
like, oh, it's this little thingthat we're just going to kind
of do.
And then what are you doing?
By inserting all the thingsthat you want, you've completely
removed the authority of thescripture and God and you put
yourself there.
And that's where you knowyou're saying if it goes against
(06:35):
me and what I want in my house,then that's offensive to me.
If somebody's telling me thatthat's oppressive and this is
wrong for you, because in myworld everyone has to agree with
me, and what if you become yourown pope of your own religion,
of one Exactly?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Exactly, and it's funny you're saying like people
try to dress it up or make itmore palatable, I guess.
Whatever, however you want tophrase that, I think one of the
ways that they do that is tryingto make it seem like an
intellectual journey.
Right, like you're using logic,you're using reasoning when
(07:13):
really it's solely based inemotion.
Yes, If you go to the root of it.
It is how do I think?
Not how do I think, but how doI feel about these things that
are being told to me or havebeen told to me, and therefore,
based on how it makes me feel, Ican reject it.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, and a lot of people who are deconstructing
started because of a trauma intheir life or a harm done or
church hurt or somethinghappening that well, whether
legitimate or not, and a lot ofthem have very sad stories.
I will say that, like, Iempathize and understand, but
(07:57):
more times than not they'rethey've hit like a crossroad
where they've been hurt, they'vehad something happen and their
feelings now, which may havebeen hurt, legitimately, so or
wrongly, you know the church hasmistreated them, but then now
their whole worldview is nowbeing filtered through their
(08:18):
feelings.
But they wrap it up becauseI've listened to these books,
these podcasts, these podcasts.
They make it like, oh, this isso much more intellectual.
These Christians who believethings and faith are just so
dumb.
They don't actually knowscience.
They don't, and it's really thecomplete opposite of reality in
(08:39):
that that whole movement isrooted very deeply in feelings
and people feel better about itbecause they think that, oh well
, this is so much more, this isso much more, you know,
acceptable in the secular worldand it makes sense in on paper.
They may think, oh well, Ican't believe the Bible because
(09:01):
X, y and Z, there's all thesedifferent things to contradict,
and blah, blah, blah.
But again they're trying tomaybe I'm trying to think of the
right word make themselves feelbetter in the back of their
mind, right?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Right there's squelching any sort of
conscience and once you kind ofcross that line of I will no
longer listen to anything thattells me I have done wrong or I
am wrong or I'm thinking wrong,Once you kind of cross that line
, you can just see the downwardspiral in all of the things and
(09:37):
there is no longer any reasoningwith those individuals really.
So again, just reinforcing that.
It's really not an intellectualthing, right?
I mean, we know that relativismis prevalent all around us, and
so much of our world is juststeeped in relativism.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Absolute truth is gone right, yes, right.
It's my truth.
We see that everywhere socially, in the church.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, we see it in the church we see it I mean just
especially in this movement.
This is just the very core ofit.
Is that so obviously, when weuse the term deconstruction and
we talk about this part of it,we're going to find people that
(10:28):
we know that have done this,that are going through this.
Can you speak a little to that?
Do you have experience and whatdo you think that?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Unfortunately, I think it is just becoming more
and more common because I thinkit's like you said earlier, it's
become more socially palatable,especially in the Christian
movement, where people are like,oh, I'm deconstructing around
this and in all honesty, it's alittle weird to watch somebody
go through it, especiallysomebody you're close to.
(11:04):
We have people in our lives.
We've more and more people whoI would have never believed that
this person is like, yeah, I'mpretty much walking away from
God.
This is, had I not heard itfrom their own mouth.
Because I think a lot of timeswe think, oh, that person's
deconstructing.
Well, were they really saved?
We hear that Maybe they didn'thave a true conversion, maybe it
(11:27):
was just a religion and theydid all this stuff because their
parents did.
And we have multiple cases inour life where it's like, no, I,
even to this day, I do notdoubt that there's salvation.
The Bible says by your food, yeshall know them.
And there are years and decadesand decades of this person
loved Jesus, this personfollowed Jesus and this person's
(11:51):
life was changed by Jesus untilone day, whatever it was,
something somebody said or saidin circumstances, whatever it
was, something shook their face.
And then I think a lot of timeswhen somebody goes through
something like that and maybethey're not 100% honest with the
(12:12):
people around them or whatthey're going through, they then
start seeing the Christiansaround them as you're not
helping me in my time of need.
And then there starts the rootsin planting and it's going.
The seed of this is maybe nottrue and we've seen that in our
(12:36):
lives.
And it's hard because in someof these cases these people know
more of the Bible than I do.
Like what am I going to say tothem?
That's going to be like, no,but the Bible, this like.
So it's a very difficult pathto navigate.
Each case is different, Ibelieve, because to your point
(12:56):
earlier, like, are theydeconstructing or are they
asking questions?
You know I'm talking about theactual deconstructing here,
rejecting, rejecting bookChristianity, and saying no, I
don't, I do not believe in theBible, I do not believe it's
authority, I'm not going to takeit face value and all these
things.
It's a hard path to walkthrough and see people go
(13:18):
through that and I thinkobviously number one thing is
praying for people and you know,always keeping a relationship,
you know there and being therefor that person is as much as
they'll let you.
I mean, there have been peoplein our life where you
continually reach out and reachout and try and try and then it
just that thing that brought youtogether no longer exists.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
So it's hard in that, like when we kind of see people
do this, usually there is somesort of an outside source that
is drawing them right.
They're not like just coming upwith this on their own.
Yes, they're listening topeople.
(14:02):
They're, you know, listening tothese deconstructionists and
podcasts or on YouTube orsomething like there.
There is some sort of anoutside.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
It's very important I don't care how strong a
Christian you are to be carefulin what you are allowing
yourself to listen to.
Like you know, even when I waslooking stuff up on this
deconstruction stuff like Ididn't want to go down and
listen to all of thedeconstruction Like I looked and
I saw that it was there right,but I wasn't going to sit there
(14:36):
and listen to their side ofwhatever they think reality is I
wasn't going to do that.
I was going to say I don'tthink that it's good to live in
an echo chamber and that younever you know you never
research other sides of opinions.
I don't think that it's good tolive in an echo chamber and
(14:58):
that you never you know younever research other sides of
opinions or stories or truth.
Like you don't ever like hearanything but what you believe
and what you think.
When people think and believelike you, I do not think that
(15:19):
that is a very good way to goabout things.
However, you still have to usediscernment and you still have
to guard your heart and guardyour what goes in and out and
make sure that these thingsdon't take a root in your heart
to cause your question.
(15:40):
And when you're constantly,even if you have, like you said,
it gives a strong space.
If that's all you're doing islistening to podcast after
podcast.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
You're reading book after book in all the ways you
should deconstruct To then whathappens when you're listening to
a podcast after a podcast,you're reading it in all the
ways you should deconstruct tothen what happens is this, you
start deconstructing and that,and that leads to deconversion.
You are going down.
It's deconstruction is just avehicle that's getting you to
(16:09):
your destination of rejectingGod, whether that's your finding
yourself agnostic or atheist.
I don't think I've ever heardof anybody deconstructing to
another religion.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
It's always nope.
None of this stuff applies tome, right?
If you're constantly fillingyourself with that, of course
that's what you're going tobecome.
Why is it any different withour minds as it is, with putting
our body right?
Garbage in, garbage out If youeat garbage, you're going to
feel like garbage.
If you put garbage in your mind, that is what is in your mind.
That's why the Bible saysrenewing your mind through his
(16:41):
word constantly, and that's ahuge part in making sure you're
understanding where you are inyour quote unquote journey.
If you just have questions,you're trying to find answers,
to seek the scriptures, right,the answers.
Find your relationship with theLord, but recognize that
(17:01):
deconstructing is you're justtaking this path, one way or
another, to unbelief, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
And if I think of building a mind with that.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
That's where you're going to end up.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, I think of when Paul was talking to Timothy and
second Timothy said Demos hasforsaken forsaken loving this
present world you know, justlike what we had mentioned
before, this is not a new thing.
And if somebody who ministeredwith Paul Paul the Apostle where
(17:35):
we got pretty much the majorityof the New Testament if
somebody could walk away fromthe faith who ministered one on
one with Paul, you know who arewe to think that we couldn't
possibly walk?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
away and that our minds are, you know, beyond that
, because our faith is so strong.
That's like a great, greatpoint, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So then let's talk a little bit about we've covered
the people who are actuallytruly deconstructing, right.
So let's talk about somebodywho maybe they okay, so we're
very familiar with this Okay,they grew up in Christianity,
they experienced kind of maybeextremes in Christianity and
(18:19):
they're they're searching forwhat is biblical and what isn't
biblical.
They know that certain flavorsof Christianity aren't
necessarily right, you know,because you can have doctrinary
sound churches who have kind ofcult like yeah, cult like
(18:39):
practices.
You know you can have truebelievers practicing their faith
in a wrong way and it does, itaffects other people and we've
seen this and have we see iteven still today these people
who have, like, this crisis offaith, right.
So they're like I don't know.
(19:01):
I see all this hypocrisy, I seeall of this, you know,
unbiblical practicing and I justI don't know.
I can't say that I want to goto church necessarily, but I
can't say that I rejectChristianity wholesale.
So let's talk a little bitabout that, like why can one
(19:23):
person go through a crisis offaith and another person go
through a very similar crisis offaith and one person comes out
stronger in their faith?
And the other person comes outlacking faith altogether or very
little faith.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I mean, I think a lot of it has to do with going back
to was there a true conversion?
You know, if you have, you'retalking about the same, two
different people kind of goingthrough the same experience.
You know how?
How was their faith to startwith?
You know, did they have a realrelationship with the Lord?
And I mean we have to also giverecognition to the fact that
(20:02):
you know if people'spersonalities are different.
We would talk about that andwith our family, like how, you
know, we're raised all in thesame way same roots, same
parents and all of us have verysimilar experiences.
But some of us just reactdifferently to things.
In what we perceive one way,another, you know, family might
(20:23):
perceive a different way.
So I think there's there's alot to be said about that and
recognizing that.
But it starts with the heart,like if someone has a true
desire to find truth, then Godwill reveal himself to them.
That is what scripture says.
He says he will reveal himselfin search our hearts out and if
(20:43):
your heart is actually seekingtruth and you want to know.
Oh God, there's a lot ofconfusion around me.
There's oh, I've been hurt, Ihave been wronged, people have
been terrible.
The church has been wronged me.
I see a lot of horrible things,but I still think you are good.
Please show yourself to me andyou are actively pursuing God.
He will reveal himself, andagain that goes to your heart.
(21:06):
So why does one person walkaway?
One grow stronger?
I think their heart is in adifferent place.
I think some peopledeconstructions, will never say
I'm deconstructing so I can livea life of sin and not worry
about it.
But at the root, of it.
They don't want to say that outloud, but they want to live the
(21:26):
life how they want and not feelthe guilt of it.
So they fluff it up and be likeoh, these are all the reasons
why I have left God and left thechurch and Christianity.
And we can all come up with athousand reasons why.
Right, we've got the churchright, because there is a lot of
wrong stuff going on there.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
But that the heart posture and those two people is
very different Absolutely, and Ialways think of the parable of
the sower and the seed right.
That's right there, given to us.
There are people who are goingto receive the word the seed and
it's going to grow up for alittle bit and then it's going
(22:04):
to fall away and the rootsaren't going to take root very
deep and they'll be good.
They'll bring forth a littlebit of fruit and then they're
going to be gone away.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, and then you have those that really are
rooted and you know no scripture, and they're deep in the ground
and, yes, the winds come andthe storms come and those things
might topple back and forthhere and there, but they're
still going to stay in thatground because they have a firm
(22:36):
foundation.
They've been, they have deeproots, you know they've been
watered and they know where theybelong.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Essentially Right for sure, and it's important to say
here too, that with our socialmedia, in the world that we live
in, these hurts that weexperience, they can become a
platform and they can be drawattention and therefore, because
they draw attention, we can usethese hurts to our advantage,
(23:08):
so to say, and we can draw afollowing of people who have
been hurt likewise, and we canuse our hurt in a very, very,
very bad way, because it notonly continually hurts you
yourself to do that, becauseyou're putting your, your hurt
always before you, but it canalso hurt other Christians who
(23:33):
are struggling and you can useyour negativity to allow other
people to fall away as well.
And maybe you're not even like.
You're not the people who arereally deconstructing.
You love Jesus and you want tofollow Jesus, but you're just
still publicizing this hurt,Right?
(23:54):
You're saying this was all thebad things that happened.
You better ask yourself thequestion how is this helping
someone else?
A lot of people do this andthey say well, I just want to
help other people who are goingthrough the same thing.
How?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
yeah, and when you say hurt, we're talking about
church hurt.
So I think you know, to give amaybe a little bit more
direction of you know what we'retalking about.
You grew up in a Christianchurch, maybe a streaming
legalistic church, right, andthere's a lot of you know people
, I think, nowadays who areleaving legalism and they're
like, oh my gosh, my eyes havebeen open, this is crazy.
(24:28):
But they still love Jesus andthey're trying to search things
out and they haven't walked awayfrom the Lord.
And now the pendulum has swungthe other way, Right, and
instead of being like superstrict, like legalistic, Now
it's like I have figured outwhat the Bible actually says and
this is what it says.
And I'm going to impart mywisdom and all the Bible that I
know onto the world and show youhow fundamentalism and legalism
(24:52):
and X, Y and Z are all wrongand how this is what's right,
because I have been enlightened.
And now, like you said you have, they keep on exploiting these
traumas and these, theseessentially sticky statements,
and hit pieces on you knowthings that they're pulling from
their background, which thereis legitimate, ridiculous, crazy
stuff that is out there, thathas been said and people believe
(25:15):
, and but building these youknow audiences to then throw all
that stuff on the internet andI say, okay, if we are following
the God of the Bible and praisethe Lord, you have been
enlightened and you recognizethat there was a lot of stuff
that needs to be thrown out.
Okay, the our main goal asChristians is the Great
(25:37):
Commission.
Right.
The Bible says goes preach thegospel to all people.
So your social media platforms,where all you're doing is
hounding on other ChristiansFundamentalist or legalistic,
right, super liberal, notwhatever side you're on it how
are you bringing people to Jesus?
How is that?
(25:57):
Any person who just happensupon your feet and you're
harping on this, that and theother thing, that is a major
turn off.
If I was an unsafe person and Icame across that and like, what
are all these people talkingabout?
This is crazy, Right.
And if it is all about you know, I want to let people know,
like, but at the end of the day,it's got telling you to go let
(26:19):
people know that their cultishthings or maybe they're
extremely liberal things aren'tbiblical.
Or is he just like hey, makesure people know I'm the way to
choose some life now I'm gonnabuy me.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Right, it's all about like time and place, right.
The internet's not the time orthe place.
You're not.
You're not going to make thesituation any better by just
rehashing these, these thingsthat were done to you, or by
proclaiming what you think istruth about the situation or not
(26:51):
.
Again, it kind of just.
It goes full circle, like ifyou want to go back to the whole
idea of relativism, like yousay that this is truth, right,
and maybe it could be biblicallytrue, maybe, maybe it's not.
But bashing someone that youthink is not right doesn't help
(27:15):
anyone.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
It's doing the exact same thing that you're accusing
everybody else of.
Just you're on the other sideof it.
Now, right, because we've allbeen, you know there where
you're, like you said we have,we have a little bit of
background where we were in asituation where things were more
, you know, opinion based orpersonal conviction preached as
(27:37):
biblical truth.
Right, well, that's right.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Right, I mean just even in like when we use it's.
It's all about like, this,defining the words, even still
like.
Even when you use the termlegalistic, well, that could
mean something different toeverybody.
Right, you know and and so whenwe're, when we're talking about
these things in Christianity,it's very hard because we could
be using the same word butthinking of definitions
(28:03):
completely different in ourminds.
So you know, yes, we foundourselves in situations where,
like you were saying, personalconviction preached as biblical
truth.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Right, right for everybody across the board to
finish my point like you're.
So if you're on the other sideof that, we've all.
We can all go back to times andplaces in our lives when we've
heard, you know, the one person,like all these Christians who
think that this is what theBible means, they're so
backslidden and they're that,and now here we are on the other
(28:36):
side, are like all these crazyChristians who think this is
what the Bible means and you'relike it's all the same thing
you're just a coin.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I can tell you how many times I've heard from both
sides the same, the same thing,and I'm, like you know, again I
have.
I think it's important to hearother people's sides of things.
I do not think it's a good ideato sit in an echo chamber of
just yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, andthere's way too much of that on
(29:06):
both sides.
They're really and there reallyis, and I do believe social
media feeds that for sure.
We need to be careful whenwe're talking about a very
immature believer who is tryingto figure out what is the truth.
We need to be careful that weare going back to the basic
(29:27):
fundamentals of our Christianfaith.
What do we believe doctrinallyabout Jesus Christ?
What do we believe doctrinallyabout the word of God?
If you, if they are strugglingwith all of these other things,
all of these issues of standardand all of these issues of
practices in the church, youneed to go back to the
(29:50):
foundational truths ofChristianity.
Who is God, god's eternal being?
Who is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ is God the Trinity, that you're going back to the
doctrine of the faith and youare saying do I believe this?
Do I believe the word of God isabsolute truth?
(30:11):
And if you come to a pointwhere you're saying, yes, I do
believe this, then all of thoseother things you can deal with
later as you grow.
You need to take the basic babysteps and this is where I think
a lot of this issue has become.
Such an issue in our world todayis that there's such a lack of
(30:36):
discipleship, and with secondgeneration Christians.
So, yeah, you know, firstgeneration Christians, I think
of people like mom and dad's age, their sixth season
discipleship was very strong,right.
Then their children are raisedin the church and they, I think
(30:58):
if it was kind of like, well, wethink that this is going to
happen by osmosis, like thediscipleship you know, and as
mothers we are to be in, fathers, we are to be discipling our
children Absolutely.
It's supposed to start in thehome but it doesn't always Right
.
We have the second generationChristians and their basic
(31:20):
doctrinal knowledge is soshallow that it is so easy for
them to fall away.
So if you're talking withsomeone who is, you know, I was
raised in church, but all ofthese things, they just don't
make sense in every.
I just go back to the basics.
Do you believe?
Do you believe that the word ofGod is the absolute authority?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
That right there, anybody who we know in our life
who is deconstructing?
That is the one thing that Ihave gotten clear answers from
no Right, and that's the scarything to hear as a Christian.
And then, for here, somebodythat you love say that because
you're like, okay, well, how doI prove to you now that it is
the word of God Right, and, likeyou were saying, the
(32:04):
discipleship and how shallow andhow little some of us really
know like?
Can you and I sit with somebodytomorrow and say this is how I
know the word of God is true andreal and, through evidence and
fulfilled prophecy and all thesethings, how we can go through
and have a look at my son, but,man, I would need a week to
prepare for that.
(32:24):
I can't do that tomorrow.
We don't have that, at leastnot all of us, definitely not
the way that we should.
And that is why I think so manypeople around us, to your point
, their, their roots are justtaken right out of that ground,
because that soil was notplanted, because we do not
really know how to defend whatwe believe, because we just it's
(32:48):
in many ways.
Our parents walked away fromreligion and then they chose
Jesus, but we have just followedthe religion of our parents and
don't have that.
We believe it, but we can't beapologists about it and that
should.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, in that it's not wrong to ask questions.
Yes, you know we need to askquestions.
We need to ask good questions.
We need to ask good questionsof why we believe what we
believe.
But also, if someone is fallingaway, ask them some good
questions.
Ask them what led them to that.
(33:23):
You know, what is it that'sthat's hurting them or what is
it that's making them question?
You know, we need to have that,that conversation, in a very
compassionate way, and we needto in in in our of ourselves.
We need to make sure that wecan answer those questions.
(33:44):
And if we can't answer themright then and there we can say
let me, let me study this, letme pray about this, let me ask
some people, let me, and I'llget back to you and we can see
and we can have thisconversation.
Because I'd love to have thisconversation, because I want to
make sure that I know why Ibelieve what I believe as well.
Like you know, we need to.
We need to have thoseconversations and not be afraid
(34:07):
of the questions.
If someone is questioning,sometimes they're questioning
just out of arrogance.
But if someone is questioning,it's not well, arrogance and
ignorance, like they're arrogantand they think well, I already
know why I believe.
So I'm just going to questionyou to see if what you say you
(34:28):
know, like just from a proudstandpoint.
You know they're not reallylooking for answers, they're
just asking a question andignorance.
Obviously they're coming from apoint of ignorance too.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
but and I think the church as a whole I think
they've gotten better has beenafraid of questions.
I think it's been like frownedupon, like if someone would say,
well, I'm struggling withbelieving that the Bible is true
and the answer that you, youknow, tape over everything as
well.
You know, you just have to havefaith and you know what.
Yes, there are plenty of timesthat, yes, you do just have to
(35:05):
have faith.
At the end of the day, it takesfaith to believe there's not a
God and it takes faith tobelieve there is a God.
Both of them have faith.
But I think the last couple ofdecades that answer has been a
don't question because it makespeople afraid and uncomfortable.
So you just have that faithwhen really there is a lot of
(35:26):
things that we can give ananswer to and the Bible says
that we should be able to and wedon't want to just slap here.
Here's faith.
That's the answer to all thingsthat are kind of hard.
And if you're struggling withsomething, just pray and ask God
for more faith and read theBible, because faith comes by
hearing, hearing by the word ofGod, and sometimes that's a lazy
way out because we don't wantto study and we don't want to
(35:46):
have hard conversations.
You want to talk about havinghard conversations.
You know my 10 year old and thisis like it breaks your heart
and it makes you like, wow, Ireally need to study my Bible
more, because she's 10 years oldand it's only going to get
worse, you know, for the numberof generations.
She's asking me why did Godharden Pharaoh's heart?
(36:08):
I didn't ask that.
Why did I thought of thatquestion?
To have 20, something Likethat's a hard question to
wrestle with.
How do you answer that question?
She's asking me.
You know, if God told us not tobe respecters of persons, why
did God choose the Jews overeverybody else in the Bible?
And then why is he put blinderson their eyes now and why are
(36:31):
they dying in Israel right now?
That is not fair.
And here she is, 10 years old,sobbing, and you're like those
are really hard questions from a10 year old.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
But I just want to say this is a kudos to you,
though, because she actuallyknows those verses to be able to
have those thoughts, to be ableto reason those things, and
she's doing it in the confinesof your home, asking you those
questions.
So this is discipleship andthis is, you know, absolutely
great.
Yeah, they're hard questions,but aren't you glad she's coming
(37:04):
to you with these questions now, Instead of like she is in
college, where her you knowprofessor could give her a whole
spew of why she thinks?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
it is, you know, yeah , and it's.
It makes you because I wasliterally like OK, I don't want
to just say I don't know why Godhardened Pharaoh's heart, but
we just have faith that that wasGod's plan Like I want to be
like OK, you know, I need toreally study this and give her a
little bit more of an answer.
And it pushes you, and I thinkthat's where, like you said,
(37:34):
back to point.
Questions are a good thing forthe person asking them and for
the person hearing them, becauseit forces both of you to think
outside the box, go to God.
It strengthens your faith and Ithink, like I said, the church
as a whole has been afraid ofthat, and so I think some of the
whole movement has been inreaction to we're not supposed
(37:57):
to have questions.
Well, I thought, I thought youknow if God is real to reveal
stuff to you and I have answersto everything.
And then, you know, one thingleads to another and OK, this is
true If we can't even ask aquestion.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Just to kind of wrap this all up.
We could talk about this for along time, but we won't bore you
anymore.
From where I sit, I want tomake sure that if I am
confronted with somebody who'ssaying I'm a deconstructionist,
or if someone in my family like,say, in 10 years my daughter's
(38:33):
like well, I'm deconstructing,or I don't believe in Jesus
anymore, I want her to knowfirst that, well, I still love
her and Jesus still loves her,and I want to still have a
relationship with her, to beable to speak some sort of truth
(38:55):
into her life, as long as shewould, let me Right, heavens,
that happens.
I pray that it does not everyday, but if that were to happen,
right.
So if your friend comes to youand is like you know, I'm on
this deconstruction path,whatever, how do we interact?
What do we say?
What do we do?
(39:15):
And we've covered this.
We've said you know, we want tohave that relationship.
But sometimes really, it's OK tojust take a step back and say
you know, if you don't want tohear anything, if you don't have
the questions, you don't wantto hear the answers, I still
love you, but I can't, becausesometimes it's like this.
(39:38):
It's so heavy and weighty, yeah, becomes Oppressive.
You know it's sad, it's, it'stroublesome.
So to take a step back is not aproblem.
But yeah, I did not cut peopleout in anger.
To react anger, yeah, it's nota good idea, because you're just
(39:59):
really solidifying in theirminds that and it's justifying
their actions even more.
Like, see they're.
They're just angry, right Cuz I, because I didn't agree with
them.
They're just angry so becausethey reacted that way.
That just tells me even morethat they were just toxic, so
right.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, and a lot of times when people are going
through something, whether it'sfaith-related or not.
But I was sort of talking aboutthis.
This is something our mom wasvery good about and I know she
still does it she would alwayspray God put somebody or a set
of circumstances in their lifethat they would draw them to you
, and oftentimes the personthat's gonna make a breakthrough
(40:42):
in somebody's close to life isnot going to be you.
Right, it'll be a set ofcircumstances or somebody else
that God puts in their lifebecause, whether you'd like to
admit it or not, you know wehave history, people were close
and there are things that weboth have said and done that
maybe have been hurtful or they.
We haven't lived out ourChristianity Maybe the way we
(41:04):
should, and it's hard To be thatchange in somebody's life when
they know you so well.
In often time it can come fromsomebody else.
So I just encourage you knowPeople walking through this,
either with a feminine member ora friend like number one cover
them in prayer all the time, butpray that God put somebody or
set of circumstances in theirlife that shakes them and brings
(41:29):
them back to Jesus, and thatthey would, that God would open
their eyes to see him, becausewe know God reveals himself.
That that's what scripture tellsus.
Right, but they have to belooking for it, to see it.
You know, and if they're onthis path towards trying to
prove that he doesn't exist,you're kind of working against
God, and so obviously we alwayssay like, oh well, of course
(41:53):
We'll just pray for them, butprayer is like the first thing.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
No, something's going wrong.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Anyways, like let's pray for them.
Like that is a tool that we alldo not use to, you know it's
best ability?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Oh, absolutely for sure.
You know, we hear these termsso much in Christianity.
We'll just, you know, read theBible, just pray, you know, and
sometimes we're like, okay, buthow, like in the moment, how,
what am I gonna pray?
What do I pray?
How do I pray for that person?
I just you mentioning that,like is is a way to pray for
(42:26):
that person, like it's giving alittle bit more guidance, not
just pray, right, it's a Praythat God will bring someone or a
set of circumstances orwhatever that Will will be able
to Minister to them in a waythat maybe I cannot right and
yeah, just pray that God woulddraw them to him, that they
(42:50):
would not harden their heart somuch that the Holy Spirit cannot
still minister to them andspeak to them in their life, you
know.
So those are some, some moreways you can pray, like using
the word of God to pray forpeople and and Just going to the
(43:13):
scripture.
For if you're you know, like wewere saying, it's a very heavy
subject.
It can be very depressing liketo go to the scripture to find
comfort in.
You know these situations forour self, when our heart is
hurting because somebody isleaving, because of that
relationship is broken.
Just Reminding ourselves of thescriptures that well I know
(43:36):
everybody loves to throw out.
All things work together fortoo good.
No, there are.
There are promises in thescriptures that we can hold on
to we know that God is good, nomatter what Right, and we can go
and we can look at who God isagain and we can trust in who
God is again and know that hisplan For us, for that individual
(44:00):
.
He loves that person more thanwe ever could you know, and we
have.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Their story Is not over like you don't know.
That's me where they are todayand, you know, until, until
they're under their lives, Imean, god can be working on them
.
And well, it may seem over inour mind, because in that time,
like we we don't know, likethat's what we just can never
Stop praying and beingencouraging to them and all that
, like that's not the end right.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Anyhow, we hope that this was maybe, maybe
informative.
If you've never heard of theterms, or maybe you have heard
of them but you're kind of like,well, what does this mean and
why are so many people Sayingthis?
Now, maybe we have provided alittle bit of clarity for the
(44:49):
deconstruction movement.
Hopefully, if you know somebodywe've been Encouraging with
just the idea of what we'resupposed to do if we know
somebody's going through this,and we just hope that it's been
Encouragement as you walk inyour walk with the Lord.
Thank you for listening andthank you, christina, for
(45:10):
joining us.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Oh, my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
All right, we'll see you next time.
We are honored that you chosesimply edified to be a part of
your day, if this episode was ablessing to you.
But you consider subscribing toour podcast as well as writing
a review or giving us a rating?
This would be such a help toour ministry.
We would love for other peopleto find us and this is one of
(45:33):
the ways that they can Thank you.
I think you just answered ourcall.
You just have to go ahead andask.
Ask at cybernet.
Hello and welcome to Simpliadify's podcast.
Our goal is to encourage womenas we navigate the messiness of
life through biblical studies,personal stories and practical
tips that bolster our walk withJesus daily.
Thank you for joining us in ourepisode today.
Hello and welcome back.
We are episode two in our newseries on popular cultural
(00:26):
issues in Christianity.
Today we are going to betalking about the deconstruction
movement and I have a guestco-host today.
It is my sister.
Her name is Christina Palma.
Hello, she agreed to just fillin this week for SB and I'm
(00:50):
excited because this is stuffthat we've talked about, you
know, amongst ourselves assisters, many times before, and
we have a little bit of personalhistory in a couple areas when
it comes to deconstructingpeople.
We know people.
These issues that we're goingto bring up, we have addressed
(01:13):
in our life personally.
So, yeah, we're going to jumpright in Deconstruction.
What is it?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, I guess it depends on who you're talking to
, right?
I feel like first of all, it'sbecome a very trendy word and
sometimes people might say itnot knowing exactly.
You know what it means to aperson deconstructing, or what
it means just to average Joe.
So I think there's definitelytwo definitions of it.
(01:43):
People, when they first hear it, just think, oh, they're kind
of rummaging through their faith, they're figuring out what they
believe, maybe taking out whatthey don't like, and then kind
of figuring out what the Biblesays or what Jesus says about
things and kind of establishingtheir own faith.
But I think to an actual personwho's really deconstructing,
(02:05):
it's a little bit different.
What would you think?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely, if you like, look on
the internet.
If you do hashtagdeconstructing and follow any of
the people who are truedeconstructors, you realize that
these people want nothing to dowith Christianity.
They reject the historicalChristian truth and faith
(02:27):
altogether.
And if they, if you were totell them that you're actually
just searching the scripturesfor answers, they would laugh at
your face because that's whatthey would say.
You're not true?
Deconstructing men.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I mean, like anything can be a little bit of a cult,
you know, in of itself in someregard, you know it's a social
contingent, if you will, that'sjust growing amongst
Christianity.
However, it can kind of suck inthose people who maybe think
they're deconstructing, butreally they're just kind of
(03:05):
learning what Christianity isand maybe having to filter out
some of the things that havebeen taught.
They don't want to walk awayfrom God, but they're kind of
maybe a better word to bereconstruct their Christianity.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Right or reform?
I mean think about theReformation.
What were the main leaders ofthe Reformation?
What were they doing.
They were going to the Bible tosee what was biblically accurate
and there is nothing wrong withthat, and you know that's a
good thing, right.
But to say that you'redeconstructing it means
(03:38):
something very different.
So we just want to make thatabsolutely clear.
Like, if you are in thatposition of not sure about what
you believe or why you believe,I would caution against using
that word deconstruct, cautionagainst listening to anyone who
calls themselves adeconstructionist.
(03:58):
It's kind of like a poisonreally.
It will suck you in and itreally becomes a continual
criticism of anything that hasto do with religion, and the
idea is that they believe thatanything that goes against a
(04:18):
personal belief is toxic.
You cannot call me a sinner.
That is.
You're toxic if you call me asinner, right.
It's oppressive Right.
The Bible says for all havesinned.
So obviously we know that thatis completely unbiblical, but
(04:39):
that's the thought processbehind a lot of the
deconstructionists.
Whatever offends me is toxic,okay, and saying that I am wrong
in what I feel and what I think, that's abusive.
So, you had an example of thehouse.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Oh, yeah, I mean.
Unfortunately, I feel likethere's just more and more
people around you who are goingthrough deconstruction or say
they are anyhow, which, let's behonest, deconstruction is just
a fancy word for saying I'mfalling away from the Lord, I'm
becoming a prodigal, like I'mrejecting, and that's nothing
new.
That's been happening eversince Christ came right.
(05:23):
People are walking away fromthe faith and the devil has just
dressed it up in a prettypackage and tried to insert it
into the church.
I think that's been a new thingthese inserted into the church,
but when Christians or quote,unquote, christians, I don't
know try to make it sound softer.
I've heard explained like thisthink of deconstructing as like
(05:47):
a house or an apartment and it'sfull of all this furniture and
it's cluttered and there's stuffyou don't need and stuff that
you know is not essential andyou're taking all of it out and
then you're only putting back inwhat you need and that sounds
you're like oh, I can understandthat.
There's a lot of things maybethat we've been taught in the
church that don't line withbiblical principles.
They've just been traditions,or maybe there are some things
(06:11):
that have been taught wrongly.
I think we can all know that,but, you know, making it sound
like, oh, it's this little thingthat we're just going to kind
of do.
And then what are you doing?
By inserting all the thingsthat you want, you've completely
removed the authority of thescripture and God and you put
yourself there.
And that's where you knowyou're saying if it goes against
(06:35):
me and what I want in my house,then that's offensive to me.
If somebody's telling me thatthat's oppressive and this is
wrong for you, because in myworld everyone has to agree with
me, and what if you become yourown pope of your own religion,
of one Exactly?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Exactly, and it's funny you're saying like people
try to dress it up or make itmore palatable, I guess.
Whatever, however you want tophrase that, I think one of the
ways that they do that is tryingto make it seem like an
intellectual journey.
Right, like you're using logic,you're using reasoning when
(07:13):
really it's solely based inemotion.
Yes, If you go to the root of it.
It is how do I think?
Not how do I think, but how doI feel about these things that
are being told to me or havebeen told to me, and therefore,
based on how it makes me feel, Ican reject it.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, and a lot of people who are deconstructing
started because of a trauma intheir life or a harm done or
church hurt or somethinghappening that well, whether
legitimate or not, and a lot ofthem have very sad stories.
I will say that, like, Iempathize and understand, but
(07:57):
more times than not they'rethey've hit like a crossroad
where they've been hurt, they'vehad something happen and their
feelings now, which may havebeen hurt, legitimately, so or
wrongly, you know the church hasmistreated them, but then now
their whole worldview is nowbeing filtered through their
(08:18):
feelings.
But they wrap it up becauseI've listened to these books,
these podcasts, these podcasts.
They make it like, oh, this isso much more intellectual.
These Christians who believethings and faith are just so
dumb.
They don't actually knowscience.
They don't, and it's really thecomplete opposite of reality in
(08:39):
that that whole movement isrooted very deeply in feelings
and people feel better about itbecause they think that, oh well
, this is so much more, this isso much more, you know,
acceptable in the secular worldand it makes sense in on paper.
They may think, oh well, Ican't believe the Bible because
(09:01):
X, y and Z, there's all thesedifferent things to contradict,
and blah, blah, blah.
But again they're trying tomaybe I'm trying to think of the
right word make themselves feelbetter in the back of their
mind, right?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Right there's squelching any sort of
conscience and once you kind ofcross that line of I will no
longer listen to anything thattells me I have done wrong or I
am wrong or I'm thinking wrong,Once you kind of cross that line
, you can just see the downwardspiral in all of the things and
(09:37):
there is no longer any reasoningwith those individuals really.
So again, just reinforcing that.
It's really not an intellectualthing, right?
I mean, we know that relativismis prevalent all around us, and
so much of our world is juststeeped in relativism.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Absolute truth is gone right, yes, right.
It's my truth.
We see that everywhere socially, in the church.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, we see it in the church we see it I mean just
especially in this movement.
This is just the very core ofit.
Is that so obviously, when weuse the term deconstruction and
we talk about this part of it,we're going to find people that
(10:28):
we know that have done this,that are going through this.
Can you speak a little to that?
Do you have experience and whatdo you think that?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Unfortunately, I think it is just becoming more
and more common because I thinkit's like you said earlier, it's
become more socially palatable,especially in the Christian
movement, where people are like,oh, I'm deconstructing around
this and in all honesty, it's alittle weird to watch somebody
go through it, especiallysomebody you're close to.
(11:04):
We have people in our lives.
We've more and more people whoI would have never believed that
this person is like, yeah, I'mpretty much walking away from
God.
This is, had I not heard itfrom their own mouth.
Because I think a lot of timeswe think, oh, that person's
deconstructing.
Well, were they really saved?
We hear that Maybe they didn'thave a true conversion, maybe it
(11:27):
was just a religion and theydid all this stuff because their
parents did.
And we have multiple cases inour life where it's like, no, I,
even to this day, I do notdoubt that there's salvation.
The Bible says by your food, yeshall know them.
And there are years and decadesand decades of this person
loved Jesus, this personfollowed Jesus and this person's
(11:51):
life was changed by Jesus untilone day, whatever it was,
something somebody said or saidin circumstances, whatever it
was, something shook their face.
And then I think a lot of timeswhen somebody goes through
something like that and maybethey're not 100% honest with the
(12:12):
people around them or whatthey're going through, they then
start seeing the Christiansaround them as you're not
helping me in my time of need.
And then there starts the rootsin planting and it's going.
The seed of this is maybe nottrue and we've seen that in our
(12:36):
lives.
And it's hard because in someof these cases these people know
more of the Bible than I do.
Like what am I going to say tothem?
That's going to be like, no,but the Bible, this like.
So it's a very difficult pathto navigate.
Each case is different, Ibelieve, because to your point
(12:56):
earlier, like, are theydeconstructing or are they
asking questions?
You know I'm talking about theactual deconstructing here,
rejecting, rejecting bookChristianity, and saying no, I
don't, I do not believe in theBible, I do not believe it's
authority, I'm not going to takeit face value and all these
things.
It's a hard path to walkthrough and see people go
(13:18):
through that and I thinkobviously number one thing is
praying for people and you know,always keeping a relationship,
you know there and being therefor that person is as much as
they'll let you.
I mean, there have been peoplein our life where you
continually reach out and reachout and try and try and then it
just that thing that brought youtogether no longer exists.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
So it's hard in that, like when we kind of see people
do this, usually there is somesort of an outside source that
is drawing them right.
They're not like just coming upwith this on their own.
Yes, they're listening topeople.
(14:02):
They're, you know, listening tothese deconstructionists and
podcasts or on YouTube orsomething like there.
There is some sort of anoutside.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
It's very important I don't care how strong a
Christian you are to be carefulin what you are allowing
yourself to listen to.
Like you know, even when I waslooking stuff up on this
deconstruction stuff like Ididn't want to go down and
listen to all of thedeconstruction Like I looked and
I saw that it was there right,but I wasn't going to sit there
(14:36):
and listen to their side ofwhatever they think reality is I
wasn't going to do that.
I was going to say I don'tthink that it's good to live in
an echo chamber and that younever you know you never
research other sides of opinions.
I don't think that it's good tolive in an echo chamber and
(14:58):
that you never you know younever research other sides of
opinions or stories or truth.
Like you don't ever like hearanything but what you believe
and what you think.
When people think and believelike you, I do not think that
(15:19):
that is a very good way to goabout things.
However, you still have to usediscernment and you still have
to guard your heart and guardyour what goes in and out and
make sure that these thingsdon't take a root in your heart
to cause your question.
(15:40):
And when you're constantly,even if you have, like you said,
it gives a strong space.
If that's all you're doing islistening to podcast after
podcast.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
You're reading book after book in all the ways you
should deconstruct To then whathappens when you're listening to
a podcast after a podcast,you're reading it in all the
ways you should deconstruct tothen what happens is this, you
start deconstructing and that,and that leads to deconversion.
You are going down.
It's deconstruction is just avehicle that's getting you to
(16:09):
your destination of rejectingGod, whether that's your finding
yourself agnostic or atheist.
I don't think I've ever heardof anybody deconstructing to
another religion.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
It's always nope.
None of this stuff applies tome, right?
If you're constantly fillingyourself with that, of course
that's what you're going tobecome.
Why is it any different withour minds as it is, with putting
our body right?
Garbage in, garbage out If youeat garbage, you're going to
feel like garbage.
If you put garbage in your mind, that is what is in your mind.
That's why the Bible saysrenewing your mind through his
(16:41):
word constantly, and that's ahuge part in making sure you're
understanding where you are inyour quote unquote journey.
If you just have questions,you're trying to find answers,
to seek the scriptures, right,the answers.
Find your relationship with theLord, but recognize that
(17:01):
deconstructing is you're justtaking this path, one way or
another, to unbelief, you know.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
And if I think of building a mind with that.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
That's where you're going to end up.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, I think of when Paul was talking to Timothy and
second Timothy said Demos hasforsaken forsaken loving this
present world you know, justlike what we had mentioned
before, this is not a new thing.
And if somebody who ministeredwith Paul Paul the Apostle where
(17:35):
we got pretty much the majorityof the New Testament if
somebody could walk away fromthe faith who ministered one on
one with Paul, you know who arewe to think that we couldn't
possibly walk?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
away and that our minds are, you know, beyond that
, because our faith is so strong.
That's like a great, greatpoint, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So then let's talk a little bit about we've covered
the people who are actuallytruly deconstructing, right.
So let's talk about somebodywho maybe they okay, so we're
very familiar with this Okay,they grew up in Christianity,
they experienced kind of maybeextremes in Christianity and
(18:19):
they're they're searching forwhat is biblical and what isn't
biblical.
They know that certain flavorsof Christianity aren't
necessarily right, you know,because you can have doctrinary
sound churches who have kind ofcult like yeah, cult like
(18:39):
practices.
You know you can have truebelievers practicing their faith
in a wrong way and it does, itaffects other people and we've
seen this and have we see iteven still today these people
who have, like, this crisis offaith, right.
So they're like I don't know.
(19:01):
I see all this hypocrisy, I seeall of this, you know,
unbiblical practicing and I justI don't know.
I can't say that I want to goto church necessarily, but I
can't say that I rejectChristianity wholesale.
So let's talk a little bitabout that, like why can one
(19:23):
person go through a crisis offaith and another person go
through a very similar crisis offaith and one person comes out
stronger in their faith?
And the other person comes outlacking faith altogether or very
little faith.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I mean, I think a lot of it has to do with going back
to was there a true conversion?
You know, if you have, you'retalking about the same, two
different people kind of goingthrough the same experience.
You know how?
How was their faith to startwith?
You know, did they have a realrelationship with the Lord?
And I mean we have to also giverecognition to the fact that
(20:02):
you know if people'spersonalities are different.
We would talk about that andwith our family, like how, you
know, we're raised all in thesame way same roots, same
parents and all of us have verysimilar experiences.
But some of us just reactdifferently to things.
In what we perceive one way,another, you know, family might
(20:23):
perceive a different way.
So I think there's there's alot to be said about that and
recognizing that.
But it starts with the heart,like if someone has a true
desire to find truth, then Godwill reveal himself to them.
That is what scripture says.
He says he will reveal himselfin search our hearts out and if
(20:43):
your heart is actually seekingtruth and you want to know.
Oh God, there's a lot ofconfusion around me.
There's oh, I've been hurt, Ihave been wronged, people have
been terrible.
The church has been wronged me.
I see a lot of horrible things,but I still think you are good.
Please show yourself to me andyou are actively pursuing God.
He will reveal himself, andagain that goes to your heart.
(21:06):
So why does one person walkaway?
One grow stronger?
I think their heart is in adifferent place.
I think some peopledeconstructions, will never say
I'm deconstructing so I can livea life of sin and not worry
about it.
But at the root, of it.
They don't want to say that outloud, but they want to live the
(21:26):
life how they want and not feelthe guilt of it.
So they fluff it up and be likeoh, these are all the reasons
why I have left God and left thechurch and Christianity.
And we can all come up with athousand reasons why.
Right, we've got the churchright, because there is a lot of
wrong stuff going on there.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
But that the heart posture and those two people is
very different Absolutely, and Ialways think of the parable of
the sower and the seed right.
That's right there, given to us.
There are people who are goingto receive the word the seed and
it's going to grow up for alittle bit and then it's going
(22:04):
to fall away and the rootsaren't going to take root very
deep and they'll be good.
They'll bring forth a littlebit of fruit and then they're
going to be gone away.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, and then you have those that really are
rooted and you know no scripture, and they're deep in the ground
and, yes, the winds come andthe storms come and those things
might topple back and forthhere and there, but they're
still going to stay in thatground because they have a firm
(22:36):
foundation.
They've been, they have deeproots, you know they've been
watered and they know where theybelong.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Essentially Right for sure, and it's important to say
here too, that with our socialmedia, in the world that we live
in, these hurts that weexperience, they can become a
platform and they can be drawattention and therefore, because
they draw attention, we can usethese hurts to our advantage,
(23:08):
so to say, and we can draw afollowing of people who have
been hurt likewise, and we canuse our hurt in a very, very,
very bad way, because it notonly continually hurts you
yourself to do that, becauseyou're putting your, your hurt
always before you, but it canalso hurt other Christians who
(23:33):
are struggling and you can useyour negativity to allow other
people to fall away as well.
And maybe you're not even like.
You're not the people who arereally deconstructing.
You love Jesus and you want tofollow Jesus, but you're just
still publicizing this hurt,Right?
(23:54):
You're saying this was all thebad things that happened.
You better ask yourself thequestion how is this helping
someone else?
A lot of people do this andthey say well, I just want to
help other people who are goingthrough the same thing.
How?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
yeah, and when you say hurt, we're talking about
church hurt.
So I think you know, to give amaybe a little bit more
direction of you know what we'retalking about.
You grew up in a Christianchurch, maybe a streaming
legalistic church, right, andthere's a lot of you know people
, I think, nowadays who areleaving legalism and they're
like, oh my gosh, my eyes havebeen open, this is crazy.
(24:28):
But they still love Jesus andthey're trying to search things
out and they haven't walked awayfrom the Lord.
And now the pendulum has swungthe other way, Right, and
instead of being like superstrict, like legalistic, Now
it's like I have figured outwhat the Bible actually says and
this is what it says.
And I'm going to impart mywisdom and all the Bible that I
know onto the world and show youhow fundamentalism and legalism
(24:52):
and X, Y and Z are all wrongand how this is what's right,
because I have been enlightened.
And now, like you said you have, they keep on exploiting these
traumas and these, theseessentially sticky statements,
and hit pieces on you knowthings that they're pulling from
their background, which thereis legitimate, ridiculous, crazy
stuff that is out there, thathas been said and people believe
(25:15):
, and but building these youknow audiences to then throw all
that stuff on the internet andI say, okay, if we are following
the God of the Bible and praisethe Lord, you have been
enlightened and you recognizethat there was a lot of stuff
that needs to be thrown out.
Okay, the our main goal asChristians is the Great
(25:37):
Commission.
Right.
The Bible says goes preach thegospel to all people.
So your social media platforms,where all you're doing is
hounding on other ChristiansFundamentalist or legalistic,
right, super liberal, notwhatever side you're on it how
are you bringing people to Jesus?
How is that?
(25:57):
Any person who just happensupon your feet and you're
harping on this, that and theother thing, that is a major
turn off.
If I was an unsafe person and Icame across that and like, what
are all these people talkingabout?
This is crazy, Right.
And if it is all about you know, I want to let people know,
like, but at the end of the day,it's got telling you to go let
(26:19):
people know that their cultishthings or maybe they're
extremely liberal things aren'tbiblical.
Or is he just like hey, makesure people know I'm the way to
choose some life now I'm gonnabuy me.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Right, it's all about like time and place, right.
The internet's not the time orthe place.
You're not.
You're not going to make thesituation any better by just
rehashing these, these thingsthat were done to you, or by
proclaiming what you think istruth about the situation or not
(26:51):
.
Again, it kind of just.
It goes full circle, like ifyou want to go back to the whole
idea of relativism, like yousay that this is truth, right,
and maybe it could be biblicallytrue, maybe, maybe it's not.
But bashing someone that youthink is not right doesn't help
(27:15):
anyone.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
It's doing the exact same thing that you're accusing
everybody else of.
Just you're on the other sideof it.
Now, right, because we've allbeen, you know there where
you're, like you said we have,we have a little bit of
background where we were in asituation where things were more
, you know, opinion based orpersonal conviction preached as
(27:37):
biblical truth.
Right, well, that's right.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Right, I mean just even in like when we use it's.
It's all about like, this,defining the words, even still
like.
Even when you use the termlegalistic, well, that could
mean something different toeverybody.
Right, you know and and so whenwe're, when we're talking about
these things in Christianity,it's very hard because we could
be using the same word butthinking of definitions
(28:03):
completely different in ourminds.
So you know, yes, we foundourselves in situations where,
like you were saying, personalconviction preached as biblical
truth.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Right, right for everybody across the board to
finish my point like you're.
So if you're on the other sideof that, we've all.
We can all go back to times andplaces in our lives when we've
heard, you know, the one person,like all these Christians who
think that this is what theBible means, they're so
backslidden and they're that,and now here we are on the other
(28:36):
side, are like all these crazyChristians who think this is
what the Bible means and you'relike it's all the same thing
you're just a coin.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I can tell you how many times I've heard from both
sides the same, the same thing,and I'm, like you know, again I
have.
I think it's important to hearother people's sides of things.
I do not think it's a good ideato sit in an echo chamber of
just yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, andthere's way too much of that on
(29:06):
both sides.
They're really and there reallyis, and I do believe social
media feeds that for sure.
We need to be careful whenwe're talking about a very
immature believer who is tryingto figure out what is the truth.
We need to be careful that weare going back to the basic
(29:27):
fundamentals of our Christianfaith.
What do we believe doctrinallyabout Jesus Christ?
What do we believe doctrinallyabout the word of God?
If you, if they are strugglingwith all of these other things,
all of these issues of standardand all of these issues of
practices in the church, youneed to go back to the
(29:50):
foundational truths ofChristianity.
Who is God, god's eternal being?
Who is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ is God the Trinity, that you're going back to the
doctrine of the faith and youare saying do I believe this?
Do I believe the word of God isabsolute truth?
(30:11):
And if you come to a pointwhere you're saying, yes, I do
believe this, then all of thoseother things you can deal with
later as you grow.
You need to take the basic babysteps and this is where I think
a lot of this issue has become.
Such an issue in our world todayis that there's such a lack of
(30:36):
discipleship, and with secondgeneration Christians.
So, yeah, you know, firstgeneration Christians, I think
of people like mom and dad's age, their sixth season
discipleship was very strong,right.
Then their children are raisedin the church and they, I think
(30:58):
if it was kind of like, well, wethink that this is going to
happen by osmosis, like thediscipleship you know, and as
mothers we are to be in, fathers, we are to be discipling our
children Absolutely.
It's supposed to start in thehome but it doesn't always Right
.
We have the second generationChristians and their basic
(31:20):
doctrinal knowledge is soshallow that it is so easy for
them to fall away.
So if you're talking withsomeone who is, you know, I was
raised in church, but all ofthese things, they just don't
make sense in every.
I just go back to the basics.
Do you believe?
Do you believe that the word ofGod is the absolute authority?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
That right there, anybody who we know in our life
who is deconstructing?
That is the one thing that Ihave gotten clear answers from
no Right, and that's the scarything to hear as a Christian.
And then, for here, somebodythat you love say that because
you're like, okay, well, how doI prove to you now that it is
the word of God Right, and, likeyou were saying, the
(32:04):
discipleship and how shallow andhow little some of us really
know like?
Can you and I sit with somebodytomorrow and say this is how I
know the word of God is true andreal and, through evidence and
fulfilled prophecy and all thesethings, how we can go through
and have a look at my son, but,man, I would need a week to
prepare for that.
(32:24):
I can't do that tomorrow.
We don't have that, at leastnot all of us, definitely not
the way that we should.
And that is why I think so manypeople around us, to your point
, their, their roots are justtaken right out of that ground,
because that soil was notplanted, because we do not
really know how to defend whatwe believe, because we just it's
(32:48):
in many ways.
Our parents walked away fromreligion and then they chose
Jesus, but we have just followedthe religion of our parents and
don't have that.
We believe it, but we can't beapologists about it and that
should.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, in that it's not wrong to ask questions.
Yes, you know we need to askquestions.
We need to ask good questions.
We need to ask good questionsof why we believe what we
believe.
But also, if someone is fallingaway, ask them some good
questions.
Ask them what led them to that.
(33:23):
You know, what is it that'sthat's hurting them or what is
it that's making them question?
You know, we need to have that,that conversation, in a very
compassionate way, and we needto in in in our of ourselves.
We need to make sure that wecan answer those questions.
(33:44):
And if we can't answer themright then and there we can say
let me, let me study this, letme pray about this, let me ask
some people, let me, and I'llget back to you and we can see
and we can have thisconversation.
Because I'd love to have thisconversation, because I want to
make sure that I know why Ibelieve what I believe as well.
Like you know, we need to.
We need to have thoseconversations and not be afraid
(34:07):
of the questions.
If someone is questioning,sometimes they're questioning
just out of arrogance.
But if someone is questioning,it's not well, arrogance and
ignorance, like they're arrogantand they think well, I already
know why I believe.
So I'm just going to questionyou to see if what you say you
(34:28):
know, like just from a proudstandpoint.
You know they're not reallylooking for answers, they're
just asking a question andignorance.
Obviously they're coming from apoint of ignorance too.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
but and I think the church as a whole I think
they've gotten better has beenafraid of questions.
I think it's been like frownedupon, like if someone would say,
well, I'm struggling withbelieving that the Bible is true
and the answer that you, youknow, tape over everything as
well.
You know, you just have to havefaith and you know what.
Yes, there are plenty of timesthat, yes, you do just have to
(35:05):
have faith.
At the end of the day, it takesfaith to believe there's not a
God and it takes faith tobelieve there is a God.
Both of them have faith.
But I think the last couple ofdecades that answer has been a
don't question because it makespeople afraid and uncomfortable.
So you just have that faithwhen really there is a lot of
(35:26):
things that we can give ananswer to and the Bible says
that we should be able to and wedon't want to just slap here.
Here's faith.
That's the answer to all thingsthat are kind of hard.
And if you're struggling withsomething, just pray and ask God
for more faith and read theBible, because faith comes by
hearing, hearing by the word ofGod, and sometimes that's a lazy
way out because we don't wantto study and we don't want to
(35:46):
have hard conversations.
You want to talk about havinghard conversations.
You know my 10 year old and thisis like it breaks your heart
and it makes you like, wow, Ireally need to study my Bible
more, because she's 10 years oldand it's only going to get
worse, you know, for the numberof generations.
She's asking me why did Godharden Pharaoh's heart?
(36:08):
I didn't ask that.
Why did I thought of thatquestion?
To have 20, something Likethat's a hard question to
wrestle with.
How do you answer that question?
She's asking me.
You know, if God told us not tobe respecters of persons, why
did God choose the Jews overeverybody else in the Bible?
And then why is he put blinderson their eyes now and why are
(36:31):
they dying in Israel right now?
That is not fair.
And here she is, 10 years old,sobbing, and you're like those
are really hard questions from a10 year old.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
But I just want to say this is a kudos to you,
though, because she actuallyknows those verses to be able to
have those thoughts, to be ableto reason those things, and
she's doing it in the confinesof your home, asking you those
questions.
So this is discipleship andthis is, you know, absolutely
great.
Yeah, they're hard questions,but aren't you glad she's coming
(37:04):
to you with these questions now, Instead of like she is in
college, where her you knowprofessor could give her a whole
spew of why she thinks?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
it is, you know, yeah , and it's.
It makes you because I wasliterally like OK, I don't want
to just say I don't know why Godhardened Pharaoh's heart, but
we just have faith that that wasGod's plan Like I want to be
like OK, you know, I need toreally study this and give her a
little bit more of an answer.
And it pushes you, and I thinkthat's where, like you said,
(37:34):
back to point.
Questions are a good thing forthe person asking them and for
the person hearing them, becauseit forces both of you to think
outside the box, go to God.
It strengthens your faith and Ithink, like I said, the church
as a whole has been afraid ofthat, and so I think some of the
whole movement has been inreaction to we're not supposed
(37:57):
to have questions.
Well, I thought, I thought youknow if God is real to reveal
stuff to you and I have answersto everything.
And then, you know, one thingleads to another and OK, this is
true If we can't even ask aquestion.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Just to kind of wrap this all up.
We could talk about this for along time, but we won't bore you
anymore.
From where I sit, I want tomake sure that if I am
confronted with somebody who'ssaying I'm a deconstructionist,
or if someone in my family like,say, in 10 years my daughter's
(38:33):
like well, I'm deconstructing,or I don't believe in Jesus
anymore, I want her to knowfirst that, well, I still love
her and Jesus still loves her,and I want to still have a
relationship with her, to beable to speak some sort of truth
(38:55):
into her life, as long as shewould, let me Right, heavens,
that happens.
I pray that it does not everyday, but if that were to happen,
right.
So if your friend comes to youand is like you know, I'm on
this deconstruction path,whatever, how do we interact?
What do we say?
What do we do?
(39:15):
And we've covered this.
We've said you know, we want tohave that relationship.
But sometimes really, it's OK tojust take a step back and say
you know, if you don't want tohear anything, if you don't have
the questions, you don't wantto hear the answers, I still
love you, but I can't, becausesometimes it's like this.
(39:38):
It's so heavy and weighty, yeah, becomes Oppressive.
You know it's sad, it's, it'stroublesome.
So to take a step back is not aproblem.
But yeah, I did not cut peopleout in anger.
To react anger, yeah, it's nota good idea, because you're just
(39:59):
really solidifying in theirminds that and it's justifying
their actions even more.
Like, see they're.
They're just angry, right Cuz I, because I didn't agree with
them.
They're just angry so becausethey reacted that way.
That just tells me even morethat they were just toxic, so
right.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, and a lot of times when people are going
through something, whether it'sfaith-related or not.
But I was sort of talking aboutthis.
This is something our mom wasvery good about and I know she
still does it she would alwayspray God put somebody or a set
of circumstances in their lifethat they would draw them to you
, and oftentimes the personthat's gonna make a breakthrough
(40:42):
in somebody's close to life isnot going to be you.
Right, it'll be a set ofcircumstances or somebody else
that God puts in their lifebecause, whether you'd like to
admit it or not, you know wehave history, people were close
and there are things that weboth have said and done that
maybe have been hurtful or they.
We haven't lived out ourChristianity Maybe the way we
(41:04):
should, and it's hard To be thatchange in somebody's life when
they know you so well.
In often time it can come fromsomebody else.
So I just encourage you knowPeople walking through this,
either with a feminine member ora friend like number one cover
them in prayer all the time, butpray that God put somebody or
set of circumstances in theirlife that shakes them and brings
(41:29):
them back to Jesus, and thatthey would, that God would open
their eyes to see him, becausewe know God reveals himself.
That that's what scripture tellsus.
Right, but they have to belooking for it, to see it.
You know, and if they're onthis path towards trying to
prove that he doesn't exist,you're kind of working against
God, and so obviously we alwayssay like, oh well, of course
(41:53):
We'll just pray for them, butprayer is like the first thing.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
No, something's going wrong.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Anyways, like let's pray for them.
Like that is a tool that we alldo not use to, you know it's
best ability?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Oh, absolutely for sure.
You know, we hear these termsso much in Christianity.
We'll just, you know, read theBible, just pray, you know, and
sometimes we're like, okay, buthow, like in the moment, how,
what am I gonna pray?
What do I pray?
How do I pray for that person?
I just you mentioning that,like is is a way to pray for
(42:26):
that person, like it's giving alittle bit more guidance, not
just pray, right, it's a Praythat God will bring someone or a
set of circumstances orwhatever that Will will be able
to Minister to them in a waythat maybe I cannot right and
yeah, just pray that God woulddraw them to him, that they
(42:50):
would not harden their heart somuch that the Holy Spirit cannot
still minister to them andspeak to them in their life, you
know.
So those are some, some moreways you can pray, like using
the word of God to pray forpeople and and Just going to the
(43:13):
scripture.
For if you're you know, like wewere saying, it's a very heavy
subject.
It can be very depressing liketo go to the scripture to find
comfort in.
You know these situations forour self, when our heart is
hurting because somebody isleaving, because of that
relationship is broken.
Just Reminding ourselves of thescriptures that well I know
(43:36):
everybody loves to throw out.
All things work together fortoo good.
No, there are.
There are promises in thescriptures that we can hold on
to we know that God is good, nomatter what Right, and we can go
and we can look at who God isagain and we can trust in who
God is again and know that hisplan For us, for that individual
(44:00):
.
He loves that person more thanwe ever could you know, and we
have.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Their story Is not over like you don't know.
That's me where they are todayand, you know, until, until
they're under their lives, Imean, god can be working on them
.
And well, it may seem over inour mind, because in that time,
like we we don't know, likethat's what we just can never
Stop praying and beingencouraging to them and all that
, like that's not the end right.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Anyhow, we hope that this was maybe, maybe
informative.
If you've never heard of theterms, or maybe you have heard
of them but you're kind of like,well, what does this mean and
why are so many people Sayingthis?
Now, maybe we have provided alittle bit of clarity for the
(44:49):
deconstruction movement.
Hopefully, if you know somebodywe've been Encouraging with
just the idea of what we'resupposed to do if we know
somebody's going through this,and we just hope that it's been
Encouragement as you walk inyour walk with the Lord.
Thank you for listening andthank you, christina, for
(45:10):
joining us.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Oh, my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
All right, we'll see you next time.
We are honored that you chosesimply edified to be a part of
your day, if this episode was ablessing to you.
But you consider subscribing toour podcast as well as writing
a review or giving us a rating?
This would be such a help toour ministry.
We would love for other peopleto find us and this is one of
(45:33):
the ways that they can Thank you.
I think you just answered ourcall.
You just have to go ahead andask.
Ask at cybernet.
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