September 5, 2023 • 33 mins
Lisa Johnson, HR Officer at Kentucky Chamber of Commerce, discusses the difficulty that arises from the fact that most managers don't like communicating feedback as well as how to address a concern of implicit bias.
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Episode Transcript
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Lisa Johnson (00:00):
Most managers do not like communicating feedback
for various reasons. They justdon't like it. And to the
extent that they prepare andthen apply. 'cause we know that
practicing makes you morecomfortable, just keep doing
it. That helps to lessen thatangst. It helps lessen the lack
(00:20):
of confidence, and it buildstheir skill. They get, they get
better and better at it.
Troy Blaser (00:29):
Hello and welcome to Simply Feedback, the podcast
brought to you byLearningBridge. I'm your host,
Troy Blazer. It's great to bewith you today. Our guest today
is Lisa Johnson. I'm lookingforward to our conversation
with her. Let me just tell youa little bit about Lisa as a
human resource professional, asa public speaker and a
(00:49):
communications coach, LisaJohnson works with busy
organizations to buildleadership skills and reduce
people risk . Her philosophy isgrounded in the message that
bringing humanity andconsistency to daily
interactions is key, not onlyto personal growth, but also to
greater organizationalproductivity. She's a
(01:09):
contributing author of thebook, imagination at Work,
shifting Boundaries in theWorkplace. Lisa, welcome to
Simply Feedback. It's so greatto have you with us today.
Lisa Johnson (01:19):
Thank you, Troy.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Troy Blaser (01:22):
I'm excited for our conversation. Maybe just to
get things started and to helpus get to know you just a
little bit, I wonder, could youtell us about a time that , uh,
somebody gave you some feedbackin your life that maybe had an
impact on your life, on yourcareer, but maybe was a
important bit of feedback foryou?
Lisa Johnson (01:40):
Yes, Troy. A freeing moment in my life where
I received feedback came from asupervisor who pulled me aside
and told me, gave me some greatadvice that, Lisa, when you're
in the spotlight and thingsdon't go according to plan.
Mm-hmm . shake itoff and keep it moving. And the
(02:02):
reason he said that was that henoticed that my demeanor had
changed. The light had goneoutta my eyes. There was a
little slump in my shoulder. Iwasn't as chatty. And his point
was, nine outta 10 times, folksaren't going to know that
there's a problem, but they'llknow there's a problem by your
demeanor. And I could not haveknown then when he told me
(02:26):
that, how many times I wouldactually be in a spotlight, let
alone literally metaphorically,you know, with events and
projects. And so it has beeninvaluable feedback , um, to
think about my, how I appearand my demeanor and how I move
forward.
Troy Blaser (02:43):
Oh, that's cool.
It it reminds me of , uh, injunior high school, I was in
the orchestra. We were allbeginner musicians. Right. But
we were constantly getting theadvice from the conductor, if
you miss a note, leave it, dropit, keep, keep moving forward.
Right. And we missed a lot ofnotes in junior high school,
that's for sure. But, but Ireally like that idea of , um,
(03:05):
you know, the audience isqueuing into your, your own
reactions. And if you are goingon as if things are going
swimmingly, they're gonna thinkthings are going great. Um, but
if you get concerned, thenthey're gonna be nervous.
Right. Wait a minute, I missedsomething. Exactly. Oh , that's
fantastic. And that's, like yousay, you've, you've been able
to use that, whether you'reliterally in a spotlight or
(03:26):
metaphorically in the spotlightstanding at the front of the
room, presenting, teaching, andwhether that's a technical
problem or , uh, you know,something just in the content,
or it's not landing with theaudience the way you had hoped
or, or whatever it might be.
Lisa Johnson (03:41):
It's true. And, and as a perfectionist, it's
even more important because,you know, I , I tend to have
these exacting standards, andso it doesn't take much, you
know, for me to becomecrestfallen. And so I , over
time, I have just reallymanaged that out. Uh, and it's
been life changing, really.
Troy Blaser (04:00):
Oh, that's cool. I , you know, you do spend time.
You're, you're a publicspeaker, a uh , an HR
professional. Is that somethingthat you've always wanted in
your career? Was there aturning point? Maybe you were
going down a certain path, andyou turned a corner to lead you
to where you are now that youcould tell us about?
Lisa Johnson (04:18):
Happy to. There was a turning point. I, I've
been a lifelong HR professionalworking in the corporate world.
And I was primarilymanufacturing. And you may or
may not know, manufacturinghistorically has had a lot of
ebbs and flows, a lot of , uh,fluctuation. And I've navigated
those pretty well. But I, I raninto a point in my career where
(04:40):
, uh, a company that I wasworking for was undergoing some
dramatic changes. And I sensedthat the definition of the HR
function was , was shifting.
And the priority of what the HRfunction was doing was
shifting. And for me, it was amoment where I had to sit down
and do some self-reflection andthink, is this direction I
wanna go or not? At that time,I decided that with all of the
(05:04):
skill and knowledge that Ihave, I have the wherewithal to
start my own business andbecome a professional coach and
consultant. Something that hadreally had been a goal
long-term for when I retire.
But seemed like the immediacyof it was more appropriate. So
I took the plunge, and that'show HR knowhow came to be. And
(05:25):
so it was a pivotal point forme in becoming a business owner
and a professional coach andtrainer, and now speaker.
Troy Blaser (05:31):
Yeah. And I imagine there's a whole set of
new skills that you need topick up as you leave the, sort
of the comfort of a corporationand strike out on your own. Is
that right? You
Lisa Johnson (05:42):
Better believe it. And , um, one of the things
that I had learned was tosurround yourself with people
that you trust and who can giveyou good advice. And that was
one of the first things I didwas put a lot of research into
it, including people research.
Troy Blaser (05:57):
Oh, that's cool.
And, and sounds exciting too.
It sounds like something thatyou're passionate about and has
led in a lot of differentdirections than what otherwise
would've just been, you know,inside of a company.
Lisa Johnson (06:08):
Yes, it has.
Troy Blaser (06:09):
That's really great. I know that you were a
contributing author for thebook that we mentioned there ,
Imagination at Work (06:15):
Shifting Boundaries in the Modern
Workplace. This was a littlebit new to me. So tell me about
this book. It sounds like therewere maybe multiple
contributors to it. Is that howit was set up?
Lisa Johnson (06:28):
Yes. And I will tell you, Troy, this is a good
example of one of the thingsthat was not on my radar when I
was reflecting. I said a coach,a consultant. You did not hear
me say writer in thereanywhere. Yes. It was not on my
radar. And a friend, VivianBlade introduced me to a
business book strategist.
Didn't even know there was sucha thing. Her name i s Cathy
(06:53):
Fyock, and she acclimated me tothe idea that a book could be
my business card to my newbusiness. And I'd seen people
do that before. Like, I got mybook, you know, and it's, it's
so impressive. Never thoughtthat would be Me. But she had
an anthology series, it'scalled the @Work series, and
she was working on the lastedition. And it's basically a
(07:16):
collaboration of authors fromdifferent areas of the HR r
elated space that would cometogether and each contribute a
chapter. And the last book wascalled Imagination @Work. And
I'm contributing with four orfive other authors, and it
became my business book. And ithas helped me tremendously in
(07:41):
promoting my business.
Troy Blaser (07:42):
And what was your specific , uh, topic that you
contributed to the anthology?
Lisa Johnson (07:47):
So my topic was about managing compliance with
Confident Communications. Now,this was early days, so I did
not have the nice branding ofthe terminology. So it was , it
was a , a mouth mouthful, youknow. But it all comes back to
helping managers communicatewith their employees and a
confident way that will helpreduce people risk , those
(08:10):
difficult conversations that weknow they have. Performance,
personality conflicts, policyviolations. How do you do that
in a way that you feelconfident and you're keeping
your organization compliant
Troy Blaser (08:23):
And all of that under the title Imagination at
Work. So yes , you've, you dothat in a creative sort of
imaginative way, but still becompliant. Yes. Can you just
help me out? What do you meanby reducing people risk? What
does that mean?
Lisa Johnson (08:39):
So, what I have come to realize over my career
is that when I see complianceissues, legal issues, people ,
um, raising things to thirdparties , uh, because of how
they feel they've been treatedwithin their organization,
that's the risk thatorganizations have. Okay.
(08:59):
Because with that comes therisk of reputation, the risk of
fines, you know, all of that .
The risk of culture and climateand all of that. And so that's
what I'm talking about is theemployee relations risk that
comes with folks that aredispleased with their work
environment, how they've beentreated.
Troy Blaser (09:15):
That makes sense.
So you just, now you've got methinking about , um, our
podcast, simply feedback. Asyou are working to reduce
people risk, I imagine theremust be some amount of feedback
back and forth. How are, youknow, checking in? How do our
employees feel? Do they, arethey happy? Are they
displeased? Are they goingoutside to other third parties
to talk about some of theseissues they're having? Or are
(09:37):
we able to deal with theminternally? Um, is there some
amount of feedback that goes onthere as you work on that?
Lisa Johnson (09:43):
Yes. Yes, it does. My angle in all of this
is before a person ever feelsthat what you've just described
is going to where these thingsfirst take their root , which
in my awareness and learning isthat it takes root in the
(10:03):
day-to-day interactions thathappen between employees and
other employees, betweenemployees and their managers.
That's where it takes root .
Somebody said something thatsomeone didn't like, they were
treated differently. Um,someone intimidated someone,
someone got a bad performancereview, somebody was treated
unfairly. It starts in justthose day-to-day things. Often
(10:25):
that happen many times a day.
Yeah. That then, if they're nothandled appropriately, escalate
into these other issues. Now,one of the ways that companies
can help identify those is ofcourse, through feedback, like
your engagement surveys and,and , um, having your, your
town halls where people can askanonymous questions and things
(10:45):
like that. Those are wonderfultools. Uh, I tend to focus on
helping managers so that on aday-to-day basis, they're
helping to minimize it fromever happening.
Troy Blaser (10:55):
Is there a tip, like, you know , uh, a great,
that kind of that first top ofthe list kind of idea that we
could pass along ways to helpmanagers be more confident in
their, in their employeeconversations?
Lisa Johnson (11:08):
Preparation is a key. Okay. Preparation and
application. So what I havefound is that most managers do
not like communicatingfeedback. Yeah. For various
reasons. Yeah. They just don'tlike it. And to the extent that
they prepare and then apply,'cause we know that practicing
makes you more comfortable,just keep doing it. That helps
(11:31):
to lessen that angst. It helpslessen the lack of confidence,
and it builds their skill. Theyget, they get better and better
at it. So when I saypreparation, I don't mean that
it has to be this lengthy,arduous process. There are some
fairly efficient and effectivemeasures you can take that can
change things like immediately.
And that's what I tend to , uh,that's what I navigate in that
(11:54):
space.
Troy Blaser (11:55):
I love that. I, I really liked , uh, as I was
reading through your bio andgetting ready , um, that you
have in there , um, bringinghumanity and consistency to
daily interactions. And Ithought, you know, that's,
that's so important. That ideaof all of, all of us as
employees, we're people first,right. We're humans. And so
(12:16):
keeping that humanity in thosedaily interactions between a
manager and the people that themanager's supervising, you know
, um, that really is soimportant. I think
Lisa Johnson (12:26):
That gets you such a long way towards the
reducing people risk. Justthose two things.
Troy Blaser (12:34):
Oh, that's fantastic. Now, you said
earlier you didn't have it onyour radar to be an author, but
I understand you've got a newbook coming as well. Tell us
about that. What's the name ofthe book and, and the topic,
and how's that coming?
Lisa Johnson (12:47):
I'm very excited , um, that I am about to
publish getting ready Solutionsfor the Well-intentioned
Leader. And the first of all, Iwas like, well, I've done a
chapter. I need to just do abook. Right. I gotta own it. If
I'm gonna be a real writer, letme just have my own book. So,
sure. Um, solutions for thewell-intentioned Leader and
(13:07):
Leader , the whole concept isthe theme of No good deeded
goes unpunished, andmanagers will know exactly what
I'm talking about here.
Somewhere in their, in theirworking life, they've had a
situation I know wheresomething that they attempted
to do with the best ofintentions went awry. And in
(13:28):
this book, what I'm focusing onare specifically in their
dealings with people. And alsowhen the thing that goes awry
leads to potential risk andcompliance for the
organization, the things wewere talking about of es it
gets escalated, conflict getsescalated, or somebody's going
to , uh, complain to an outsideparty or what have you. Yeah.
(13:51):
These things happen, and theyhappen due to those day-to-day
conversations that take root .
So this is what this book isabout, and it provides tools,
insights, best practices tohelp managers avoid them ,
Troy Blaser (15:11):
Avoid that, those kinds of , uh, again, reducing
people risk.
Lisa Johnson (15:15):
Yes.
Troy Blaser (15:16):
That's fantastic.
We were talking earlier aboutspotlights . Um, and, and
you've even been in a literalspotlight because you've been
able to participate in the TEDx, um, sort of experiences , um,
in, in giving a talk, the, aTEDx talk called, "Moving
Beyond Implicit Bias ," um, Ihad the chance to watch that. I
(15:36):
thought it was fascinating.
Could you share with us an ideaor two on that topic of that,
of that TED Talk that you did?
Lisa Johnson (15:44):
Thank you very much , uh, for the compliment.
I'm so pleased that you viewedit. Uh , the TEDx, I did that
for, for Lewis University. AndI think in the vein of what
we're talking about today inregards to feedback. Yeah. For
me, this talk, "Moving BeyondImplicit Bias," it was one of
self-reflection. And so it wasreally about self feedback.
(16:08):
Having the wherewithal torealize when there is an
internal conflict, what I amsaying does not equate to what
I am doing. Yeah . I amparticipating in some
hypocritical behaviors, and I'mrecognizing it, and it's
causing me some, some internalangst. What can I do to address
(16:29):
this? And as we know, we allhave implicit bias, and so the
talk takes us through steps ofhow we can deal with that
internally so that we'rewalking the talk, but also
we're modeling behaviors thatare gonna help others. And so
it's really the importance ofbeing able to be
self-reflective and have selffeedback moments.
Troy Blaser (16:52):
I really like that it , it resonated with me
because there have been timesin my own life where I've sort
of stepped aside and said, now,hold on. What you just, the ,
the pattern you were justthinking doesn't match with
what you say you want to bethinking, you know? And yes.
And that can be a challenge torecognize if, if the bias is
implicit, that can be verysubtle or un subconscious. And
(17:16):
, uh, that can really be achallenge to recognize. Are
there any ideas or tips thatyou would give for managers or
others who are in the positionof giving and even receiving
feedback , um, aroundrecognizing implicit bias ? You
know, maybe if we're in theposition of giving feedback, or
if we're receiving feedbackthat may be coming with some
(17:37):
implicit bias, are there thingsthat we can do , um, to
recognize that and, and, andwork with it?
Lisa Johnson (17:44):
You know, it's, it's a tricky conversation and
, and it's , uh, twofold. Youknow, that's , it's when we're
doing it, but it's when we'realso observing others. Right.
Yeah. And, and what I find isthat an approach , um, a very
one thing that you would notwant to do is have an , an
aggressive approach, because aswe've just discussed,
particularly if it's implicitbias. Yeah. Uh , people really
(18:08):
may not have any clue of whatthey're doing. Okay. So, for
me, I think this is definitelyan avenue where empathy and,
and asking questions andgetting the person to talk, and
then helping them to understandand see the impact of whatever
it is, the comment, thebehavior, or what have you. One
(18:29):
of the things that I, I , um,tend to go to is the fact that
really this, how different isthis person from you when it
comes to the things thatmatter, the things that matter.
We, you know, we want to, thatperson loves their family as
much as you do. That personwants to come to work and be
productive just like you. Youknow, they have dreams and
aspirations. Yeah . Um , and,and , you know, that, that
(18:50):
commonality. So those are someof the methods that I use ,
depending upon the situation tohelp get that conversation
going.
Troy Blaser (18:58):
I love that. It goes, we were talking earlier,
it goes back to we're allhumans and, and treating each
other as humans, as, as, likeyou say, we have a lot in , a
lot more in common that we needto remember about. And, and
keep in mind, yes . I reallylike that. I I did, I
watching your Ted Talk. Um, Iwon't spoil it, but you start
(19:19):
with a , the beginning of afantastic and compelling story.
And I'm like, I , I wanna knowthe end. What's the end of the
story, and is she gonna get tothe end of the story? And you
did, but it, it was well worththe wait , uh, through the
talk. So it was justinteresting to me to , uh, I
thought you had set that upvery well , um, because it made
me just on the edge of my seatthe whole time..
Lisa Johnson (19:41):
I was hoping that would work. Troy. Thank you.
.
Troy Blaser (19:43):
Well, it worked for me. I'll say that for sure.
Um, Lisa, as you've stepped,you know, you , you made that
transition from transition fromHR officer in a corporation and
now into your own sort ofbusiness, your own sphere. I
imagine you have the chance towork across many different
organizations and differentkinds of organizations. Um,
(20:04):
what are some of the biggestchallenges that you see as you
encounter all of thosedifferent
Lisa Johnson (20:12):
Organizations ?
One of the common themes that ,um, I now navigate with
organizations, whether it'shealthcare, educational
facilities, financialorganizations, it's that whole
thought of managers just aren'tcomfortable giving feedback.
Okay. And that's a broadspectrum. And it includes, for
(20:32):
example, the fact that it can,can create a demoralizing
culture. You know, notproviding constructive feedback
to somebody who's notperforming, whether that
person's a poor performer andwho's getting by, or whether
that person's a high performerand their bad behaviors aren't
being addressed. So that's onesphere that tends to come up
(20:55):
consistently. And then another,to a lesser degree, but still
comes up, is being able toprovide people with
constructive feedback that'spositive in a way that's going
to be effective. A lot of , uh,organizations , um, recognize
that they don't have nice, notnecessarily formal, but
(21:17):
sometimes formal, but programsin place to make sure that
people are acknowledged mm-hmm. in an
appropriate way. And for me,what that comes down to, 'cause
once again, I take it down tothe day-to-day Yeah . Is how
can managers give feedback in away that doesn't necessarily
break the bank, but on aday-to-day routine basis.
(21:37):
Because that's another angle ofit that , that elevates morale.
So those two things , um, kindakeeping with the feedback thing
Yeah . Consistently are areasthat I find where there are
obstacles. And once again, itcomes back to communication.
Always needed.
Troy Blaser (21:55):
And, and also I was thinking as you were
talking about that, I thoughtalso the practice part , um,
you know, as a manager getsmore practice in giving
feedback, whether it is thatconstructive, you know, here's
some things that you couldimprove on, or the positive
feedback and the sort of thekudos. Here's what you know,
you're doing great. Keep doingmore of this. Um, the more
(22:16):
practice, the , the easier itgets.
Lisa Johnson (22:18):
It truly does.
You , you , it's almost , um,you know, like anything, when
you practice, you start torealize, Hey, this wasn't as
hard as it was before. And allalso, I'm having more success
with this than I Yeah . Than Iwas before. Yeah . It , it
really does build upon itself.
And, and it , it reallychanges. It changes, first of
all, how you look at thingsbecause now you've consistently
(22:40):
started doing it, but itchanges how other people see
you because now you'reemploying practices that you
hadn't before. That's makingthings better.
Troy Blaser (22:49):
Yeah. Well, it , it changes how they see you and
it , and they, they feel seenby you as the manager , um,
because they're receiving thatfeedback as well. Yes. For sure
. I like that. You mentionedearlier, we asked you about a
time when you had received somefeedback in your coaching and,
and the work that you've beendoing . Um, can you share with
(23:10):
us a , a time or an experiencewhen you've sort of seen
feedback cause a point ofinflection in someone's career
or someone's life , uh, whereyou've kind of maybe played the
part of a coach?
Lisa Johnson (23:20):
Yes. And this really is one where , um, you
know , in the line of humanresources, you can imagine,
right? Right. These things are,and I , and it's always a
powerful moment when you cansee a change, a shift, a
pivotal , uh, move. That'salmost like an epiphany.
Doesn't happen often enough,but when it happens, it's
wonderful. Yeah. And I think ifI were to, to give an example ,
(23:45):
uh, one situation that I hadwas a person , uh, and it's
usually behavioral. So a lot oftimes I'll be dealing with high
performers. Okay. But there'ssome behavioral issues , uh,
where they're just notconnecting with team, things
like that. Okay. And I had asituation where that happened
with a person who was in a , afairly , um, fairly high on the
hierarchy, but was strugglingwith the, the team standpoint.
(24:08):
And we had some coachingsessions. And once again, the
self, you know, just advocatingthe self-reflection, showing
empathy, you know, all thosethings that we've been talking
about, listening, et cetera .
And a little tough love interms of how they're being
perceived. You know, A 360 willdo that every time, you know?
Yes. That , that willdefinitely shed some light Yes.
(24:30):
360 feedback survey is what I'mreferring to. Yeah. And , um,
to see a person decide thatthey're gonna own it mm-hmm .
and make the turnand employ the feedback from
that is just, I mean, that's,that's why I'm here. It's just
a wonderful thing to see. Andof course, you know, you've
accomplished it. First of all,if the person's happy that you
were coaching, but also theirsupervision is happy. Like, I
(24:53):
see a change. Yeah. This isgood. It's like, man, it's a
great world.
Troy Blaser (24:56):
, we have
here at LearningBridge, we have
a motto. We , we talk a lotabout feedback , um, but we
talk about receiving feedbackgraciously and acting on it
visibly. And you kind of hit onthose two things exactly.
Right. That the person you werecoaching decided to own it. And
probably then, now there's somegraciousness in accepting that
(25:16):
feedback, saying, okay, I, I'm,I believe this feedback that
I'm getting. But then the acton it visibly, that gets
reflected because thesupervisor is happy. Right. The
supervisor says, oh, I can seethat they, they received the
feedback, they made somechanges. And, and it's visible
. Those changes are visibleenough that I can see a
difference. Um,
Lisa Johnson (25:35):
Yes, indeed.
Troy Blaser (25:37):
I imagine it can be, sometimes it can be a
challenge coaching those highperforming individuals because
they are doing so many thingswell, and, and they get a lot
of positive feedback for thethings that they're doing.
Well, that can be difficultsometimes then to say, you're
doing fantastic. Here are justa couple of things to keep in
mind. Do you find that to betrue?
Lisa Johnson (25:59):
Yes. It is a challenge. It's probably one of
the biggest challenges becauseif the person doesn't have a
good dose of self-awareness,uhhuh , , that
is, that's, that's a barrier.
And you almost, if , if youcan't break down that
self-awareness barrier, the opthe opportunities for success
have been greatly reduced.
Yeah. And so trying to bringthat piece in into play is
(26:21):
important. And also even from ahigher viewpoint, organizations
tend to be shy about trying toaddress those individuals
because after all, they arehigh performers. Right. So one
of the messages , um, I do asession on , uh, leadership
plus awareness equals success.
And that's tailored directly tomore senior levels to show that
(26:43):
you really need to tackle thisissue because you don't realize
the damage that is being doneby this wonderful high
performer because of theirbehavioral tendencies. So those
are some of the things weencounter with that.
Troy Blaser (26:54):
Any tips or guidance on ways to break down
that to, or I guess to raisethe self-awareness for those
individuals as you start tocoach and work with somebody ,
uh, what are some ways to helpthem become more aware?
Lisa Johnson (27:09):
I really am an advocate of 360 feedback I
mentioned before. Yeah. And Iknow that there are a lot of
opinions about 360 feedback.
For me, the power of a 360feedback comes, first of all,
you have a coach who canutilize it effectively, because
if it's used as a weapon orit's used as an intimidation
(27:31):
factor or something like that,it's, it's not gonna work. Yeah
. But if it's used truly in thesense of how it is supposed to
be intended, which is we likeyou as an employee, you are
stellar, you're great. Here aresome things that you need to
work on 'cause it's causingproblem. That can be a game
changer. And if you can comcouple that with the
(27:52):
self-awareness piece. And thatwould be like a self-assessment
for the person, right. To helpbuild their wellness awareness.
Those two things together tendto have more of an opportunity
for success, that type offormula.
Troy Blaser (28:04):
I like that. So you get , uh, you know, if you
do a 360 degree feedbacksurvey, you get the report and,
and you, the inevitably therewill be a section in there
saying, here's what youthought. Here are the biggest
gaps between what you thoughtin your self-assessment and how
the others rated you. And thatcan definitely bring some
awareness of, oh, I, I neverthought of it that way, or I
(28:25):
didn't realize it that way.
Right?
Lisa Johnson (28:27):
Yes. It's very eye-opening. And that's really
where the coach is justcentral, because how that
person receives it and whatthey do with it, the coach can
have some guidance andinfluence there because it, you
know, could definitely gosouth. Yeah. Right. And so
having a good coach that canhelp the person in interpret
(28:48):
mm-hmm . , uh,what they receive and , and
manage in such a way so thatthere is a positive outcome is
really important.
Troy Blaser (28:54):
And I suppose there's also, sometimes
awareness needs to be broughtin terms of the difference
between the feedback from yourmanager and the feedback from
your direct reports can be verydifferent. Right? If you manage
up Yes . Or you manage downand, and understanding that and
being aware of that differenceand mitigating it if, if needed
(29:14):
to say, okay, I need to paymore attention in the direction
of my direct reports or, or tomy manager, you know? Yes.
Lisa Johnson (29:20):
And that can be very stark in a 360, which is
why I love the tool. Yeah . Itwill definitely highlight,
okay, you have a greatreporting , uh, relationship
with your supervisor, but lookwhat's happening here in this
quadrant with your directreports . Yes . Right. Um, it
can be, it can be extremelyhelpful Also , um, I, I'm MBTI
certified. Okay. And that'sanother, you know, those, those
(29:42):
kinds of assessments, they havea fun component, but can do the
same thing. It highlights wherethere's differences in how a
person , um, what theirtendencies are and how there
can be conflict based uponthat. Yeah . So anything that
highlights those gives yousomething to start the
conversation.
Troy Blaser (29:59):
I love that. Uh , we've done the MBTI as a team
and, and I found that veryvaluable as well to think,
okay, how do I work with myteam? Uh, understanding their
personalities better now reallyhelps me , um, know how to work
with them and, and, and how myown personality sort of meshes
in with theirs. I really likethat.
Lisa Johnson (30:19):
Yes.
Troy Blaser (30:20):
Well, Lisa, you've shared a ton of thoughts, a ton
of advice, guidance, tips. Isthere anything else in terms of
advice that you would sharewith our listeners in terms of
the work that you're doing or,you know, things for them to be
aware of , um, as they'reworking in their own
environments?
Lisa Johnson (30:36):
One thing that I think that is underutilized and
can make immediate change islistening skills. And how many
times have we heard listening,right? Yeah. How many times do
we think we're good, goodlisteners? But what I'm saying
is, the next time that someoneis talking to you and sharing
with you, put down the phone,turn down volume or what have
(31:01):
you, listen to the person and,and don't, I'm , don't
interrupt with solutions. Well,what you ought to do is this,
or have you thought about this?
And, and , uh, you know, don'tinterrupt , uh, with, oh, well
this is, this is what happenedto me. And then next thing you
know, you're off with yoursegue . Listen to the person
and ask them, am Iunderstanding you correctly?
(31:24):
You're saying this, and is thiswhat I'm hearing correctly? Let
them know that they're beingseen, that they're being heard,
that you hear them. And thenwhat you will find is there'll
either be an uncomfortablesilence when they stop because
they'll pause or they'll startto ramble because now they're
nervous. Yes . One of thosewill happen. Most likely that
(31:44):
is your opportunity, becausewhat you say in that moment is
a powerful moment. That's whereyou have sway because you have
shown that person that they'rebeing heard, and now they're
waiting to hear back from you.
And you can have influence inways that you haven't imagined.
And so many times we justdon't, we don't listen to
(32:04):
people and hear them out.
Troy Blaser (32:06):
I love that. And, and it gets back to the theme
of bringing, bringing thathumanity to the interactions,
right? We're all here in a , ina corporation or an
organization as employees, butwe are humans first. And we
need to remember that in ourinteractions. Um, and, and, and
like you say, someone who feelsheard, feels like they've been
(32:28):
listened to, is now in aposition to hear back whatever
the response is gonna be. I, Ilove that. That's, that's great
advice. Thank you. If, ifsomebody wants to know more, if
they've been intrigued by theconversation that you and I
have had today , um, are youopen to continuing that
conversation with them?
Lisa Johnson (32:45):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. My company is HRKnow How, so you can find me on
any of the major social mediaplatforms. Okay. Uh, I have a
website, you know , if yougoogle HR Know How, hrknowhow
.org , that's me. Um, myinformation is there , email,
phone number, and I welcome theopportunity to engage with
(33:07):
anyone who is wanting tofurther their leadership
skills.
Troy Blaser (33:12):
Cool.
HRknowhow.org. I think that's afantastic name for your company
too, by the way. Thank you.
Lisa, thank you so much forjoining us for our , uh,
podcast today with SimplyFeedback. It's been a pleasure
to chat with you and get toknow you a little bit and hear
your ideas and your thoughts.
Thank you so much.
Lisa Johnson (33:28):
I have enjoyed this tremendously. Thank you,
Troy.
Most managers do not like communicating feedback
for various reasons. They justdon't like it. And to the
extent that they prepare andthen apply. 'cause we know that
practicing makes you morecomfortable, just keep doing
it. That helps to lessen thatangst. It helps lessen the lack
(00:20):
of confidence, and it buildstheir skill. They get, they get
better and better at it.
Troy Blaser (00:29):
Hello and welcome to Simply Feedback, the podcast
brought to you byLearningBridge. I'm your host,
Troy Blazer. It's great to bewith you today. Our guest today
is Lisa Johnson. I'm lookingforward to our conversation
with her. Let me just tell youa little bit about Lisa as a
human resource professional, asa public speaker and a
(00:49):
communications coach, LisaJohnson works with busy
organizations to buildleadership skills and reduce
people risk . Her philosophy isgrounded in the message that
bringing humanity andconsistency to daily
interactions is key, not onlyto personal growth, but also to
greater organizationalproductivity. She's a
(01:09):
contributing author of thebook, imagination at Work,
shifting Boundaries in theWorkplace. Lisa, welcome to
Simply Feedback. It's so greatto have you with us today.
Lisa Johnson (01:19):
Thank you, Troy.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Troy Blaser (01:22):
I'm excited for our conversation. Maybe just to
get things started and to helpus get to know you just a
little bit, I wonder, could youtell us about a time that , uh,
somebody gave you some feedbackin your life that maybe had an
impact on your life, on yourcareer, but maybe was a
important bit of feedback foryou?
Lisa Johnson (01:40):
Yes, Troy. A freeing moment in my life where
I received feedback came from asupervisor who pulled me aside
and told me, gave me some greatadvice that, Lisa, when you're
in the spotlight and thingsdon't go according to plan.
Mm-hmm .
(02:02):
reason he said that was that henoticed that my demeanor had
changed. The light had goneoutta my eyes. There was a
little slump in my shoulder. Iwasn't as chatty. And his point
was, nine outta 10 times, folksaren't going to know that
there's a problem, but they'llknow there's a problem by your
demeanor. And I could not haveknown then when he told me
(02:26):
that, how many times I wouldactually be in a spotlight, let
alone literally metaphorically,you know, with events and
projects. And so it has beeninvaluable feedback , um, to
think about my, how I appearand my demeanor and how I move
forward.
Troy Blaser (02:43):
Oh, that's cool.
It it reminds me of , uh, injunior high school, I was in
the orchestra. We were allbeginner musicians. Right. But
we were constantly getting theadvice from the conductor, if
you miss a note, leave it, dropit, keep, keep moving forward.
Right. And we missed a lot ofnotes in junior high school,
that's for sure. But, but Ireally like that idea of , um,
(03:05):
you know, the audience isqueuing into your, your own
reactions. And if you are goingon as if things are going
swimmingly, they're gonna thinkthings are going great. Um, but
if you get concerned, thenthey're gonna be nervous.
Right. Wait a minute, I missedsomething. Exactly. Oh , that's
fantastic. And that's, like yousay, you've, you've been able
to use that, whether you'reliterally in a spotlight or
(03:26):
metaphorically in the spotlightstanding at the front of the
room, presenting, teaching, andwhether that's a technical
problem or , uh, you know,something just in the content,
or it's not landing with theaudience the way you had hoped
or, or whatever it might be.
Lisa Johnson (03:41):
It's true. And, and as a perfectionist, it's
even more important because,you know, I , I tend to have
these exacting standards, andso it doesn't take much, you
know, for me to becomecrestfallen. And so I , over
time, I have just reallymanaged that out. Uh, and it's
been life changing, really.
Troy Blaser (04:00):
Oh, that's cool. I , you know, you do spend time.
You're, you're a publicspeaker, a uh , an HR
professional. Is that somethingthat you've always wanted in
your career? Was there aturning point? Maybe you were
going down a certain path, andyou turned a corner to lead you
to where you are now that youcould tell us about?
Lisa Johnson (04:18):
Happy to. There was a turning point. I, I've
been a lifelong HR professionalworking in the corporate world.
And I was primarilymanufacturing. And you may or
may not know, manufacturinghistorically has had a lot of
ebbs and flows, a lot of , uh,fluctuation. And I've navigated
those pretty well. But I, I raninto a point in my career where
(04:40):
, uh, a company that I wasworking for was undergoing some
dramatic changes. And I sensedthat the definition of the HR
function was , was shifting.
And the priority of what the HRfunction was doing was
shifting. And for me, it was amoment where I had to sit down
and do some self-reflection andthink, is this direction I
wanna go or not? At that time,I decided that with all of the
(05:04):
skill and knowledge that Ihave, I have the wherewithal to
start my own business andbecome a professional coach and
consultant. Something that hadreally had been a goal
long-term for when I retire.
But seemed like the immediacyof it was more appropriate. So
I took the plunge, and that'show HR knowhow came to be. And
(05:25):
so it was a pivotal point forme in becoming a business owner
and a professional coach andtrainer, and now speaker.
Troy Blaser (05:31):
Yeah. And I imagine there's a whole set of
new skills that you need topick up as you leave the, sort
of the comfort of a corporationand strike out on your own. Is
that right? You
Lisa Johnson (05:42):
Better believe it. And , um, one of the things
that I had learned was tosurround yourself with people
that you trust and who can giveyou good advice. And that was
one of the first things I didwas put a lot of research into
it, including people research.
Troy Blaser (05:57):
Oh, that's cool.
And, and sounds exciting too.
It sounds like something thatyou're passionate about and has
led in a lot of differentdirections than what otherwise
would've just been, you know,inside of a company.
Lisa Johnson (06:08):
Yes, it has.
Troy Blaser (06:09):
That's really great. I know that you were a
contributing author for thebook that we mentioned there ,
Imagination at Work (06:15):
Shifting Boundaries in the Modern
Workplace. This was a littlebit new to me. So tell me about
this book. It sounds like therewere maybe multiple
contributors to it. Is that howit was set up?
Lisa Johnson (06:28):
Yes. And I will tell you, Troy, this is a good
example of one of the thingsthat was not on my radar when I
was reflecting. I said a coach,a consultant. You did not hear
me say writer in thereanywhere. Yes. It was not on my
radar. And a friend, VivianBlade introduced me to a
business book strategist.
Didn't even know there was sucha thing. Her name i s Cathy
(06:53):
Fyock, and she acclimated me tothe idea that a book could be
my business card to my newbusiness. And I'd seen people
do that before. Like, I got mybook, you know, and it's, it's
so impressive. Never thoughtthat would be Me. But she had
an anthology series, it'scalled the @Work series, and
she was working on the lastedition. And it's basically a
(07:16):
collaboration of authors fromdifferent areas of the HR r
elated space that would cometogether and each contribute a
chapter. And the last book wascalled Imagination @Work. And
I'm contributing with four orfive other authors, and it
became my business book. And ithas helped me tremendously in
(07:41):
promoting my business.
Troy Blaser (07:42):
And what was your specific , uh, topic that you
contributed to the anthology?
Lisa Johnson (07:47):
So my topic was about managing compliance with
Confident Communications. Now,this was early days, so I did
not have the nice branding ofthe terminology. So it was , it
was a , a mouth mouthful, youknow. But it all comes back to
helping managers communicatewith their employees and a
confident way that will helpreduce people risk , those
(08:10):
difficult conversations that weknow they have. Performance,
personality conflicts, policyviolations. How do you do that
in a way that you feelconfident and you're keeping
your organization compliant
Troy Blaser (08:23):
And all of that under the title Imagination at
Work. So yes , you've, you dothat in a creative sort of
imaginative way, but still becompliant. Yes. Can you just
help me out? What do you meanby reducing people risk? What
does that mean?
Lisa Johnson (08:39):
So, what I have come to realize over my career
is that when I see complianceissues, legal issues, people ,
um, raising things to thirdparties , uh, because of how
they feel they've been treatedwithin their organization,
that's the risk thatorganizations have. Okay.
(08:59):
Because with that comes therisk of reputation, the risk of
fines, you know, all of that .
The risk of culture and climateand all of that. And so that's
what I'm talking about is theemployee relations risk that
comes with folks that aredispleased with their work
environment, how they've beentreated.
Troy Blaser (09:15):
That makes sense.
So you just, now you've got methinking about , um, our
podcast, simply feedback. Asyou are working to reduce
people risk, I imagine theremust be some amount of feedback
back and forth. How are, youknow, checking in? How do our
employees feel? Do they, arethey happy? Are they
displeased? Are they goingoutside to other third parties
to talk about some of theseissues they're having? Or are
(09:37):
we able to deal with theminternally? Um, is there some
amount of feedback that goes onthere as you work on that?
Lisa Johnson (09:43):
Yes. Yes, it does. My angle in all of this
is before a person ever feelsthat what you've just described
is going to where these thingsfirst take their root , which
in my awareness and learning isthat it takes root in the
(10:03):
day-to-day interactions thathappen between employees and
other employees, betweenemployees and their managers.
That's where it takes root .
Somebody said something thatsomeone didn't like, they were
treated differently. Um,someone intimidated someone,
someone got a bad performancereview, somebody was treated
unfairly. It starts in justthose day-to-day things. Often
(10:25):
that happen many times a day.
Yeah. That then, if they're nothandled appropriately, escalate
into these other issues. Now,one of the ways that companies
can help identify those is ofcourse, through feedback, like
your engagement surveys and,and , um, having your, your
town halls where people can askanonymous questions and things
(10:45):
like that. Those are wonderfultools. Uh, I tend to focus on
helping managers so that on aday-to-day basis, they're
helping to minimize it fromever happening.
Troy Blaser (10:55):
Is there a tip, like, you know , uh, a great,
that kind of that first top ofthe list kind of idea that we
could pass along ways to helpmanagers be more confident in
their, in their employeeconversations?
Lisa Johnson (11:08):
Preparation is a key. Okay. Preparation and
application. So what I havefound is that most managers do
not like communicatingfeedback. Yeah. For various
reasons. Yeah. They just don'tlike it. And to the extent that
they prepare and then apply,'cause we know that practicing
makes you more comfortable,just keep doing it. That helps
(11:31):
to lessen that angst. It helpslessen the lack of confidence,
and it builds their skill. Theyget, they get better and better
at it. So when I saypreparation, I don't mean that
it has to be this lengthy,arduous process. There are some
fairly efficient and effectivemeasures you can take that can
change things like immediately.
And that's what I tend to , uh,that's what I navigate in that
(11:54):
space.
Troy Blaser (11:55):
I love that. I, I really liked , uh, as I was
reading through your bio andgetting ready , um, that you
have in there , um, bringinghumanity and consistency to
daily interactions. And Ithought, you know, that's,
that's so important. That ideaof all of, all of us as
employees, we're people first,right. We're humans. And so
(12:16):
keeping that humanity in thosedaily interactions between a
manager and the people that themanager's supervising, you know
, um, that really is soimportant. I think
Lisa Johnson (12:26):
That gets you such a long way towards the
reducing people risk. Justthose two things.
Troy Blaser (12:34):
Oh, that's fantastic. Now, you said
earlier you didn't have it onyour radar to be an author, but
I understand you've got a newbook coming as well. Tell us
about that. What's the name ofthe book and, and the topic,
and how's that coming?
Lisa Johnson (12:47):
I'm very excited , um, that I am about to
publish getting ready Solutionsfor the Well-intentioned
Leader. And the first of all, Iwas like, well, I've done a
chapter. I need to just do abook. Right. I gotta own it. If
I'm gonna be a real writer, letme just have my own book. So,
sure. Um, solutions for thewell-intentioned Leader and
(13:07):
Leader , the whole concept isthe theme of No good deeded
goes unpunished,
I'm talking about here.
Somewhere in their, in theirworking life, they've had a
situation I know wheresomething that they attempted
to do with the best ofintentions went awry. And in
(13:28):
this book, what I'm focusing onare specifically in their
dealings with people. And alsowhen the thing that goes awry
leads to potential risk andcompliance for the
organization, the things wewere talking about of es it
gets escalated, conflict getsescalated, or somebody's going
to , uh, complain to an outsideparty or what have you. Yeah.
(13:51):
These things happen, and theyhappen due to those day-to-day
conversations that take root .
So this is what this book isabout, and it provides tools,
insights, best practices tohelp managers avoid them ,
Troy Blaser (15:11):
Avoid that, those kinds of , uh, again, reducing
people risk.
Lisa Johnson (15:15):
Yes.
Troy Blaser (15:16):
That's fantastic.
We were talking earlier aboutspotlights . Um, and, and
you've even been in a literalspotlight because you've been
able to participate in the TEDx, um, sort of experiences , um,
in, in giving a talk, the, aTEDx talk called, "Moving
Beyond Implicit Bias ," um, Ihad the chance to watch that. I
(15:36):
thought it was fascinating.
Could you share with us an ideaor two on that topic of that,
of that TED Talk that you did?
Lisa Johnson (15:44):
Thank you very much , uh, for the compliment.
I'm so pleased that you viewedit. Uh , the TEDx, I did that
for, for Lewis University. AndI think in the vein of what
we're talking about today inregards to feedback. Yeah. For
me, this talk, "Moving BeyondImplicit Bias," it was one of
self-reflection. And so it wasreally about self feedback.
(16:08):
Having the wherewithal torealize when there is an
internal conflict, what I amsaying does not equate to what
I am doing. Yeah . I amparticipating in some
hypocritical behaviors, and I'mrecognizing it, and it's
causing me some, some internalangst. What can I do to address
(16:29):
this? And as we know, we allhave implicit bias, and so the
talk takes us through steps ofhow we can deal with that
internally so that we'rewalking the talk, but also
we're modeling behaviors thatare gonna help others. And so
it's really the importance ofbeing able to be
self-reflective and have selffeedback moments.
Troy Blaser (16:52):
I really like that it , it resonated with me
because there have been timesin my own life where I've sort
of stepped aside and said, now,hold on. What you just, the ,
the pattern you were justthinking doesn't match with
what you say you want to bethinking, you know? And yes.
And that can be a challenge torecognize if, if the bias is
implicit, that can be verysubtle or un subconscious. And
(17:16):
, uh, that can really be achallenge to recognize. Are
there any ideas or tips thatyou would give for managers or
others who are in the positionof giving and even receiving
feedback , um, aroundrecognizing implicit bias ? You
know, maybe if we're in theposition of giving feedback, or
if we're receiving feedbackthat may be coming with some
(17:37):
implicit bias, are there thingsthat we can do , um, to
recognize that and, and, andwork with it?
Lisa Johnson (17:44):
You know, it's, it's a tricky conversation and
, and it's , uh, twofold. Youknow, that's , it's when we're
doing it, but it's when we'realso observing others. Right.
Yeah. And, and what I find isthat an approach , um, a very
one thing that you would notwant to do is have an , an
aggressive approach, because aswe've just discussed,
particularly if it's implicitbias. Yeah. Uh , people really
(18:08):
may not have any clue of whatthey're doing. Okay. So, for
me, I think this is definitelyan avenue where empathy and,
and asking questions andgetting the person to talk, and
then helping them to understandand see the impact of whatever
it is, the comment, thebehavior, or what have you. One
(18:29):
of the things that I, I , um,tend to go to is the fact that
really this, how different isthis person from you when it
comes to the things thatmatter, the things that matter.
We, you know, we want to, thatperson loves their family as
much as you do. That personwants to come to work and be
productive just like you. Youknow, they have dreams and
aspirations. Yeah . Um , and,and , you know, that, that
(18:50):
commonality. So those are someof the methods that I use ,
depending upon the situation tohelp get that conversation
going.
Troy Blaser (18:58):
I love that. It goes, we were talking earlier,
it goes back to we're allhumans and, and treating each
other as humans, as, as, likeyou say, we have a lot in , a
lot more in common that we needto remember about. And, and
keep in mind, yes . I reallylike that. I
watching your Ted Talk. Um, Iwon't spoil it, but you start
(19:19):
with a , the beginning of afantastic and compelling story.
And I'm like, I , I wanna knowthe end. What's the end of the
story, and is she gonna get tothe end of the story? And you
did, but it, it was well worththe wait , uh, through the
talk. So it was justinteresting to me to , uh, I
thought you had set that upvery well , um, because it made
me just on the edge of my seatthe whole time.
Lisa Johnson (19:41):
I was hoping that would work. Troy. Thank you.
Troy Blaser (19:43):
Well, it worked for me. I'll say that for sure.
Um, Lisa, as you've stepped,you know, you , you made that
transition from transition fromHR officer in a corporation and
now into your own sort ofbusiness, your own sphere. I
imagine you have the chance towork across many different
organizations and differentkinds of organizations. Um,
(20:04):
what are some of the biggestchallenges that you see as you
encounter all of thosedifferent
Lisa Johnson (20:12):
Organizations ?
One of the common themes that ,um, I now navigate with
organizations, whether it'shealthcare, educational
facilities, financialorganizations, it's that whole
thought of managers just aren'tcomfortable giving feedback.
Okay. And that's a broadspectrum. And it includes, for
(20:32):
example, the fact that it can,can create a demoralizing
culture. You know, notproviding constructive feedback
to somebody who's notperforming, whether that
person's a poor performer andwho's getting by, or whether
that person's a high performerand their bad behaviors aren't
being addressed. So that's onesphere that tends to come up
(20:55):
consistently. And then another,to a lesser degree, but still
comes up, is being able toprovide people with
constructive feedback that'spositive in a way that's going
to be effective. A lot of , uh,organizations , um, recognize
that they don't have nice, notnecessarily formal, but
(21:17):
sometimes formal, but programsin place to make sure that
people are acknowledged mm-hmm.
appropriate way. And for me,what that comes down to, 'cause
once again, I take it down tothe day-to-day Yeah . Is how
can managers give feedback in away that doesn't necessarily
break the bank, but on aday-to-day routine basis.
(21:37):
Because that's another angle ofit that , that elevates morale.
So those two things , um, kindakeeping with the feedback thing
Yeah . Consistently are areasthat I find where there are
obstacles. And once again, itcomes back to communication.
Always needed.
Troy Blaser (21:55):
And, and also I was thinking as you were
talking about that, I thoughtalso the practice part , um,
you know, as a manager getsmore practice in giving
feedback, whether it is thatconstructive, you know, here's
some things that you couldimprove on, or the positive
feedback and the sort of thekudos. Here's what you know,
you're doing great. Keep doingmore of this. Um, the more
(22:16):
practice, the , the easier itgets.
Lisa Johnson (22:18):
It truly does.
You , you , it's almost , um,you know, like anything, when
you practice, you start torealize, Hey, this wasn't as
hard as it was before. And allalso, I'm having more success
with this than I Yeah . Than Iwas before. Yeah . It , it
really does build upon itself.
And, and it , it reallychanges. It changes, first of
all, how you look at thingsbecause now you've consistently
(22:40):
started doing it, but itchanges how other people see
you because now you'reemploying practices that you
hadn't before. That's makingthings better.
Troy Blaser (22:49):
Yeah. Well, it , it changes how they see you and
it , and they, they feel seenby you as the manager , um,
because they're receiving thatfeedback as well. Yes. For sure
. I like that. You mentionedearlier, we asked you about a
time when you had received somefeedback in your coaching and,
and the work that you've beendoing . Um, can you share with
(23:10):
us a , a time or an experiencewhen you've sort of seen
feedback cause a point ofinflection in someone's career
or someone's life , uh, whereyou've kind of maybe played the
part of a coach?
Lisa Johnson (23:20):
Yes. And this really is one where , um, you
know , in the line of humanresources, you can imagine,
right? Right. These things are,and I , and it's always a
powerful moment when you cansee a change, a shift, a
pivotal , uh, move. That'salmost like an epiphany.
Doesn't happen often enough,but when it happens, it's
wonderful. Yeah. And I think ifI were to, to give an example ,
(23:45):
uh, one situation that I hadwas a person , uh, and it's
usually behavioral. So a lot oftimes I'll be dealing with high
performers. Okay. But there'ssome behavioral issues , uh,
where they're just notconnecting with team, things
like that. Okay. And I had asituation where that happened
with a person who was in a , afairly , um, fairly high on the
hierarchy, but was strugglingwith the, the team standpoint.
(24:08):
And we had some coachingsessions. And once again, the
self, you know, just advocatingthe self-reflection, showing
empathy, you know, all thosethings that we've been talking
about, listening, et cetera .
And a little tough love interms of how they're being
perceived. You know, A 360 willdo that every time, you know?
Yes. That , that willdefinitely shed some light Yes.
(24:30):
360 feedback survey is what I'mreferring to. Yeah. And , um,
to see a person decide thatthey're gonna own it mm-hmm .
that is just, I mean, that's,that's why I'm here. It's just
a wonderful thing to see. Andof course, you know, you've
accomplished it. First of all,if the person's happy that you
were coaching, but also theirsupervision is happy. Like, I
(24:53):
see a change. Yeah. This isgood. It's like, man, it's a
great world.
Troy Blaser (24:56):
a motto. We , we talk a lotabout feedback , um, but we
talk about receiving feedbackgraciously and acting on it
visibly. And you kind of hit onthose two things exactly.
Right. That the person you werecoaching decided to own it. And
probably then, now there's somegraciousness in accepting that
(25:16):
feedback, saying, okay, I, I'm,I believe this feedback that
I'm getting. But then the acton it visibly, that gets
reflected because thesupervisor is happy. Right. The
supervisor says, oh, I can seethat they, they received the
feedback, they made somechanges. And, and it's visible
. Those changes are visibleenough that I can see a
difference. Um,
Lisa Johnson (25:35):
Yes, indeed.
Troy Blaser (25:37):
I imagine it can be, sometimes it can be a
challenge coaching those highperforming individuals because
they are doing so many thingswell, and, and they get a lot
of positive feedback for thethings that they're doing.
Well, that can be difficultsometimes then to say, you're
doing fantastic. Here are justa couple of things to keep in
mind. Do you find that to betrue?
Lisa Johnson (25:59):
Yes. It is a challenge. It's probably one of
the biggest challenges becauseif the person doesn't have a
good dose of self-awareness,uhhuh ,
is, that's, that's a barrier.
And you almost, if , if youcan't break down that
self-awareness barrier, the opthe opportunities for success
have been greatly reduced.
Yeah. And so trying to bringthat piece in into play is
(26:21):
important. And also even from ahigher viewpoint, organizations
tend to be shy about trying toaddress those individuals
because after all, they arehigh performers. Right. So one
of the messages , um, I do asession on , uh, leadership
plus awareness equals success.
And that's tailored directly tomore senior levels to show that
(26:43):
you really need to tackle thisissue because you don't realize
the damage that is being doneby this wonderful high
performer because of theirbehavioral tendencies. So those
are some of the things weencounter with that.
Troy Blaser (26:54):
Any tips or guidance on ways to break down
that to, or I guess to raisethe self-awareness for those
individuals as you start tocoach and work with somebody ,
uh, what are some ways to helpthem become more aware?
Lisa Johnson (27:09):
I really am an advocate of 360 feedback I
mentioned before. Yeah. And Iknow that there are a lot of
opinions about 360 feedback.
For me, the power of a 360feedback comes, first of all,
you have a coach who canutilize it effectively, because
if it's used as a weapon orit's used as an intimidation
(27:31):
factor or something like that,it's, it's not gonna work. Yeah
. But if it's used truly in thesense of how it is supposed to
be intended, which is we likeyou as an employee, you are
stellar, you're great. Here aresome things that you need to
work on 'cause it's causingproblem. That can be a game
changer. And if you can comcouple that with the
(27:52):
self-awareness piece. And thatwould be like a self-assessment
for the person, right. To helpbuild their wellness awareness.
Those two things together tendto have more of an opportunity
for success, that type offormula.
Troy Blaser (28:04):
I like that. So you get , uh, you know, if you
do a 360 degree feedbacksurvey, you get the report and,
and you, the inevitably therewill be a section in there
saying, here's what youthought. Here are the biggest
gaps between what you thoughtin your self-assessment and how
the others rated you. And thatcan definitely bring some
awareness of, oh, I, I neverthought of it that way, or I
(28:25):
didn't realize it that way.
Right?
Lisa Johnson (28:27):
Yes. It's very eye-opening. And that's really
where the coach is justcentral, because how that
person receives it and whatthey do with it, the coach can
have some guidance andinfluence there because it, you
know, could definitely gosouth. Yeah. Right. And so
having a good coach that canhelp the person in interpret
(28:48):
mm-hmm .
manage in such a way so thatthere is a positive outcome is
really important.
Troy Blaser (28:54):
And I suppose there's also, sometimes
awareness needs to be broughtin terms of the difference
between the feedback from yourmanager and the feedback from
your direct reports can be verydifferent. Right? If you manage
up Yes . Or you manage downand, and understanding that and
being aware of that differenceand mitigating it if, if needed
(29:14):
to say, okay, I need to paymore attention in the direction
of my direct reports or, or tomy manager, you know? Yes.
Lisa Johnson (29:20):
And that can be very stark in a 360, which is
why I love the tool. Yeah . Itwill definitely highlight,
okay, you have a greatreporting , uh, relationship
with your supervisor, but lookwhat's happening here in this
quadrant with your directreports . Yes . Right. Um, it
can be, it can be extremelyhelpful Also , um, I, I'm MBTI
certified. Okay. And that'sanother, you know, those, those
(29:42):
kinds of assessments, they havea fun component, but can do the
same thing. It highlights wherethere's differences in how a
person , um, what theirtendencies are and how there
can be conflict based uponthat. Yeah . So anything that
highlights those gives yousomething to start the
conversation.
Troy Blaser (29:59):
I love that. Uh , we've done the MBTI as a team
and, and I found that veryvaluable as well to think,
okay, how do I work with myteam? Uh, understanding their
personalities better now reallyhelps me , um, know how to work
with them and, and, and how myown personality sort of meshes
in with theirs. I really likethat.
Lisa Johnson (30:19):
Yes.
Troy Blaser (30:20):
Well, Lisa, you've shared a ton of thoughts, a ton
of advice, guidance, tips. Isthere anything else in terms of
advice that you would sharewith our listeners in terms of
the work that you're doing or,you know, things for them to be
aware of , um, as they'reworking in their own
environments?
Lisa Johnson (30:36):
One thing that I think that is underutilized and
can make immediate change islistening skills. And how many
times have we heard listening,right? Yeah. How many times do
we think we're good, goodlisteners? But what I'm saying
is, the next time that someoneis talking to you and sharing
with you, put down the phone,turn down volume or what have
(31:01):
you, listen to the person and,and don't, I'm , don't
interrupt with solutions. Well,what you ought to do is this,
or have you thought about this?
And, and , uh, you know, don'tinterrupt , uh, with, oh, well
this is, this is what happenedto me. And then next thing you
know, you're off with yoursegue . Listen to the person
and ask them, am Iunderstanding you correctly?
(31:24):
You're saying this, and is thiswhat I'm hearing correctly? Let
them know that they're beingseen, that they're being heard,
that you hear them. And thenwhat you will find is there'll
either be an uncomfortablesilence when they stop because
they'll pause or they'll startto ramble because now they're
nervous. Yes . One of thosewill happen. Most likely that
(31:44):
is your opportunity, becausewhat you say in that moment is
a powerful moment. That's whereyou have sway because you have
shown that person that they'rebeing heard, and now they're
waiting to hear back from you.
And you can have influence inways that you haven't imagined.
And so many times we justdon't, we don't listen to
(32:04):
people and hear them out.
Troy Blaser (32:06):
I love that. And, and it gets back to the theme
of bringing, bringing thathumanity to the interactions,
right? We're all here in a , ina corporation or an
organization as employees, butwe are humans first. And we
need to remember that in ourinteractions. Um, and, and, and
like you say, someone who feelsheard, feels like they've been
(32:28):
listened to, is now in aposition to hear back whatever
the response is gonna be. I, Ilove that. That's, that's great
advice. Thank you. If, ifsomebody wants to know more, if
they've been intrigued by theconversation that you and I
have had today , um, are youopen to continuing that
conversation with them?
Lisa Johnson (32:45):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. My company is HRKnow How, so you can find me on
any of the major social mediaplatforms. Okay. Uh, I have a
website, you know , if yougoogle HR Know How, hrknowhow
.org , that's me. Um, myinformation is there , email,
phone number, and I welcome theopportunity to engage with
(33:07):
anyone who is wanting tofurther their leadership
skills.
Troy Blaser (33:12):
Cool.
HRknowhow.org. I think that's afantastic name for your company
too, by the way. Thank you.
Lisa, thank you so much forjoining us for our , uh,
podcast today with SimplyFeedback. It's been a pleasure
to chat with you and get toknow you a little bit and hear
your ideas and your thoughts.
Thank you so much.
Lisa Johnson (33:28):
I have enjoyed this tremendously. Thank you,
Troy.
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