49. What Leaders Can Learn from Yoga - Janina Abiles - Simply Feedback

Episode Transcript
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Janina Abiles (00:00):
When you can control the breath, you can
control pretty much anything.
You can control your reactions,you can control your stress
levels, you can control how youare feeling, you can control
the heat in your body. And whenI think about how that could
apply in a work setting, Ithink about it not only in the

(00:21):
preparation mode. So, hey, Iknow this is gonna be a really
tough day. I'm going into, youknow, preparing for the fact
that I have some difficult newsto deliver to my team, for
example.

Troy Blaser (00:36):
Hello. Welcome to Simply Feedback, the Monthly
podcast, brought to you byLearningBridge. I'm your host
Troy Blaser, and I am excitedtoday to continue a
conversation, actually. So inour last episode, we spoke with
Janina Abiles, who's a learningand development professional.
And we talked all about allkinds of things regarding

(00:58):
feedback and leadership. Butone of the interesting things
that I learned about Janina wasthat she is also a yoga
instructor. And we asked her aquestion in the last episode
about, you know, if there areprinciples in yoga that would
apply to feedback or receivingfeedback to leadership. And
Janina's first response to thatwas that she had been waiting

(01:20):
for someone to ask her aquestion like that for a long
time, which was an unusualintro to a response. And so I
thought, you know, that'sreally interesting. And there
may be more to explore there ifwe have a certified yoga
instructor. Let's have Janinacome on and let's talk about
yoga and its relationship tofeedback and leadership in the

(01:41):
workplace. So we're excited tobring Janina back for our
conversation today. And to addanother little twist into the
conversation today, I asked ourlongtime producer and my
longtime colleague, MichaelCrowther, to join us in the
conversation as well, today.
Most of the time when we recordan episode of this podcast,

(02:03):
Michael is muted in thebackground, helping manage
things and make sure everythinggoes smoothly. But I thought
since today's topic was just alittle bit different, and
knowing that he's also has aninterest in yoga and knowing
that he has a lot to offeraround feedback and leadership
as well, I thought it would beinteresting for us to try
having a kind of a three personconversation today, and we'll

(02:25):
see how that goes. So, Janina,welcome to our episode today.
I'm excited to have you.

Troy. Thanks so much for having me. And to your
point, I actually am superexcited to talk about this. And
you know, the other thing I wasthinking about as you were just
doing the introduction is it'sso rare that I actually talk
about yoga. Usually you'rejust, you're doing it or you're
teaching and but theopportunity to actually talk
about it in a fairly kind ofthoughtful way, and in a way

(02:54):
that's a little bit unique anddifferent. Because it's not
just about, you know, the yogaor the practice, but as it
relates to things likeleadership and feedback, it's
kind of a different twist onthat . So I'm excited to be
here. Thanks for having me.

Maybe we should have started with a small
session of a practice of someyoga. Michael, I wanted to
bring you into the conversationas well. Welcome. And you're
always here, but welcomeaudibly to the conversation
today.

Michael Crowther (03:20):
Yeah, that's right . Thanks. Its fun to be
here and be on this side of themicrophone, I guess. And , so I
am looking forward to thisconversation with Janina. I
think there's some interestingpoints that we can learn from.

Yeah. Janina, you know, before we started
recording today, you had kindof asked me and asked Michael
what our experience is withyoga. So I thought maybe we
could just review that quicklyfor your sake and for the sake
of our listeners, and I'll juststart by saying, the short
answer is I have a little bitof experience with yoga, and

(03:54):
that's in the form of you know,part of a larger workout that I
might do something like 21 DayFix where I do a yoga session
once a week. But it's, it'skind of just a video, so it's
kind of repeating the samething every week. I have
explored yoga with Adrian onYouTube. My wife recommended me

(04:17):
to watch some of her YouTubevideos. It was a time when I
had some lower back pain andthere's like "Yoga for Lower
Back Pain," and I'm like, well,I'll try that out and see how
that helps me out. So that'skind of the extent of my
experience. I haven't ever evensigned up for a class, you
know, to do it with a group ofpeople. I haven't done that
before.

Yeah. What about you, Michael?

Yeah, and so mine's kind of similar and,
really the extent of, it'sprobably one we have this,
basically it's a kid's yogamat, right? And it's got like
10 poses that it shows on themat. And those are mostly worn
out at this point, but ,they're harder to see and what

(05:01):
their names are. But mostly ,what I have done is kind of
like Troy, about 10 years agoas I was training for a half
marathon, I started, I had someknee pain that I was struggling
with and it kind of persistedthrough the year. And then I
got sick with a bad cold. Iwasn't running or anything, and
I thought, okay , I need totake advantage of this break

(05:22):
and I'm gonna do somethingdifferent. And so I just found
some on YouTube, you know, yogafor runners kind of a thing.
And so I was just doing a lotof that while I was just sort
of resting, recuperating, andthere's a number of those
things that I still incorporateinto my morning, you know, my
pre-run stretch routine andstuff. So, I wouldn't say that

(05:45):
it's a complete practice, youknow, and stuff, but there , it
has definitely influenced mypre-run routine for sure.

Yeah . I just was gonna comment that it's
interesting that both of youkind of came to it sounds like
for a specific, you know , likemy knee, my lower back, and,
you know, yoga for runners,yoga for athletes.

Yeah.

Yoga for whatever, weightlifters,
marathoners, triathletes. Andso now I think the next phase
of it to me is like yoga forleadership.

True . Right .

I would like us to get to , because I really
do, I firmly believe thatpeople that take up a regular
yoga practice and truly embodyit, not just physically, but
that the mental aspects of itactually will improve their
leadership skills. Like Ireally believe that. So I'd
love to get to a point where wehave that.

Yeah. And it sounds like Michael and I both
came kind of from the physicalside of things, like how can
yoga benefit me physically? Butas you're kind of alluding to,
there's a whole world of mentalbenefits and philosophy and
principles that are, at leastfor me and for Michael, waiting
to be discovered, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and with that in mind, I'd be
kind of, again, it's a wholebig philosophy. I'm sure, but
if you can kind of give us the,you know, a quick intro into
sort of what is that philosophyfor people to be aware of?

Yeah. So I think if we just start with a sort of
this, how does yoga help you bea better leader, right? So I
think in general, any kind ofpractice that helps you to move
better or breathe better has apositive impact on your brain
and nervous system, right ? I'mnot a doctor, I'm not, I don't
know any of those things likein, in grave detail, but we do

(07:35):
know, I think that's kind ofcommon knowledge that when
you're taking care of your bodyand your brain, that leads to
things like better decisionmaking and your ability to
respond versus react, right?
Which are important things forleaders. Beyond that as you
just mentioned, Troy, and Ithink you mentioned too,
Michael, there's the , beyondthe kind of physical and

(07:56):
physiological, there's thephilosophical, which is that
there's lessons that you learnon the mat when you're taking a
yoga class, whether it's anin-person with a group of
people or a virtual. And thosethings that you learn are
practices that encourage youtypically to focus inward. So
it's, you know, clearing yourmind and doing self-reflection.

(08:17):
And once again, I think thoseare things that we commonly
know can help you inleadership, you know,
situations and leadershipskills. So to me, that's kind
of the broad , the really broadbrush of how I think it can
help somebody in theirleadership.

It's interesting still thinking of the
physiological benefits, youknow, well, I'll be quite
honest, I would be celebratingmy 50th birthday here in a few
weeks. So getting older, and,you know, I talked about having
lower back pain last year, andI realized there's, you know,
there's the stereotype of thegrouchy old man. Not that I
feel like I'm old, but whensomebody is experiencing kind

(08:57):
of this low level chronic pain,it makes them irritable, right?
And so if you think about abusiness leader who's suffering
from an injured knee or a , youknow, a hurt back, they're
going to be less fun tointeract with in the workplace
just because they're slightlyirritated or grouchy or, you

(09:17):
know. And so even at the very,the very easiest physiological
level, if you can, if yoga issomething that can help your
body feel better, you're goingto be making better decisions
with your mind because you'renot focused on this, this sort
of low level pain that's goingon all the time.

Yeah, absolutely.

But let's talk for just a minute about or let's
get into more of the mental andpsychological and philosophical
ideas that could apply moredirectly to business decision
making . Apart from thephysiological benefits, what
are some tips or some morespecific principles that you
learn in yoga that would applyin, in leadership or in a

(10:01):
feedback situation?

Yeah, so I think this is probably both
physiological and , kind ofmental or emotional, which
bright , 'cause those thingsoverlap too. So if we start
with, again, something prettybasic. Breathing exercises. I
think I didn't learn breathingexercises until I started doing
yoga. And there probably areother people that do learn
breathing exercises because of,for example, other fitness that

(10:25):
they do. You know, if you're arunner, if you're a swimmer,
you probably learn thosethings. I didn't do any of
those things. And I think for,maybe for people that have ,
anxiety or, you know, someother kind of challenges that
they're dealing with, they mayhave learned, again, breathing
exercises. I personally did notuntil I started doing yoga, but
what I have learned in thatprocess is that, you know, when

(10:48):
you can control the breath, youcan control pretty much
anything. You can control yourreactions, you can control your
stress levels, you can controlhow you are feeling, you can
control the heat in your body.
And when I think about how thatcould apply in a work setting,
I think about it not only inthe preparation mode, so, hey,

(11:10):
I know this is gonna be areally tough day. I'm going
into, you know, preparing forthe fact that I have some
difficult news to deliver to myteam, for example. Or I've been
putting off this conversation Iknow I have to have with
someone, or, right, that's kindof the prep. So maybe I'm gonna
do some breathing exercises,because it actually taps into

(11:30):
calming your nervous system,which going back to kind of
what you were saying, Troy, ifyour nervous system, your
brain, your body are just in abetter state, you're gonna be
able to have a betterconversation as a leader,
whether it's delivering badnews, whether it's just not
being grouchy when somebodycomes and asks you for
additional funding or whatever,you know, it is. And then I

(11:51):
think about that's kind of the,I guess, preparation, right?
Just being better prepared forsituations, but also the
responses, you know, you couldbe sitting at all company , all
hands meeting, and a bigannouncement is made that
you're like, I don't reallyknow how to respond to this. I
don't know if this is goodnews. Like, I feel a little bit
stressed. And you feel thephysical response happening in

(12:12):
your body. I'm getting a littlesweaty, I'm feeling flushed. I
don't know, should I feelnervous? Is my job at stake?
Those things happen to peoplein a workplace setting and
breathing can help them controltheir response to those
situations. And you don't haveto leave the building to take a
walk. You can literally besitting in a meeting with
hundreds of people and justchange your breathing pattern

(12:33):
and actually therefore calmyourself down, change your
response, be better able to aska thoughtful question instead
of coming across as combative.
You know, all those things canbe impacted simply by breathing
differently. So I think that,again, breathing is something
that seems like, well , wealready, we all do that , but

(12:55):
we don't all do it withintention. So I think that
that's something that if peoplecould learn breathing
exercises, that you can just in60 seconds change the outcome
of a situation in a workplacesetting that could otherwise be
really stressful.

Could you just give us an example of
like, so if we were in thatmoment and we needed to calm
ourselves down what would bethe kind of breathing exercise
we could do?

Yeah, so probably the simplest one is to
just increase the length of theexhale. So we inhale and we
exhale and you can hold yourbreath, all those other things.
But simply increasing thelength of your exhale taps into
your parasympathetic nervoussystem. And again, I'm not a
doctor. These are just thingsI've kind of learned over time.

(13:46):
The parasympathetic nervoussystem is the opposite of the
fight or flight, right? Sothat's the sympathetic nervous
system that puts us in fight orflight mode, which we all know,
I think most people probablyknow, fight or flight mode
happens when you feel stressed.
So stress could be a worksituation, a bad news, an
announcement, any of thosethings. And your body does

(14:06):
start to take that fight orflight like, oh, I feel like I
need to leave the room, or Thisis stressing me out, or maybe I
should look for a new job. Likepeople immediately go to those
places. That's the fight flightmode. The opposite of that is,
we often call it like the restand digest mode. And that's the
mode where you can actuallyfeel kind of calm. You can have

(14:27):
a thoughtful conversation. Youcan not react or overreact to
something. And the simple actof increasing the length of
your exhale. And what I mean bythat is, as opposed to the
inhale. So if you were sittingthere and you can start to feel
yourself getting flushed, yourbreath is probably getting
shorter, just counting, okay, Iam gonna breathe in three and

(14:48):
I'm gonna breathe out for four.
It doesn't matter if, I mean,ideally you breathe in through
your nose, out through yourmouth, but it doesn't actually
matter. Even if you're mouthbreathing, you can still change
your nervous system just bymaking the exhale last longer.

And that's sort of a conscious way to override
some of those subconsciousfight or flight reactions that
are going on. You're like, holdon. You know, my conscious
brain knows better than what tobe afraid or to have to fight.
So let's override some of thosesignals with the longer exhales

(15:24):
that are going on.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's a great, and the other
thing too is that we talk , Imean, you mentioned we all know
how to breathe. We do it allday every day. But honestly,
it's easy to forget, you know,you'll find yourself focused on
something else, or, you know,in the middle of a workout and
you forget to breathe becauseyou're focused on doing the
other thing. And or you , likeyou say, you're breathing

(15:46):
becomes shallow because it'spart of a response that you're
having. And so getting in thehabit of breathing makes it
easier to turn to it morequickly too , when you're in
that situation.

Yeah. And we don't have to think about
breathing every day.

Right.

I mean, unless you have, you know, lung issues
or something, but anybodythat's generally healthy, your
body's just gonna do it. It'sjust gonna happen. So the act
of just making it intentionaland thinking through it is
changing your, your brain.

I liked what you said, you don't have to think
about breathing. It seems likeyoga, the practice of yoga
encourages mindfulness as well.
Are there there principlesthere in terms of mindfulness
that can help us in theworkplace? I think about things
like in a feedback situationwhere you're speaking maybe

(16:38):
with a colleague or maybesomeone that you supervise,
you're trying to listen. Arethere ways that mindfulness can
help us be better listeners inthe workplace?

Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I think just focusing,right? So I think first thing
is just quieting the mind. Soagain, a yoga practice in
general. And for those peoplethat haven't ever actually been
in a yoga classroom typesetting, like with other
people, you know, you mentionedyou've never really done that,
Troy.

Yeah.

By and large, when you go to a yoga class and
every place you go isdifferent, it's different at a
gym versus maybe a studio, butby and large, yoga is about
what is happening on your mat,which is your body, your mind.
So you're not engagingnecessarily with other people
around you. There are somepractices that will have some,

(17:24):
you help somebody with ahandstand or whatever, things
like that. But by and largeit's a practice of self, right?
So the idea of focusing inwardand quieting the mind is a big
part of any yoga practice. Eventhe more physical practices, in
order to do things likebalance, you need to be able to
focus, right? So just thatoverall idea of quieting the

(17:47):
mind. And there's , someancient yoga texts. So yoga's
like 2,500 years old. We didn'treally give a lot of background
on it, at least 2,500 yearsold. And in some of these
ancient texts they'll describethings like excessive thoughts.
Those things that kind of cloudour mind. And so those

(18:08):
excessive thoughts arethoughts, memories, intellect,
ideas, ego, all those thingsthat are like swirling in our
mind that just, and sometimesit's called the monkey mind.
You've probably heard thatterm. The idea that you have to
learn to like block those outin order to focus on what's
happening right now in thepresent moment. And in a class,

(18:30):
it's, you know, what'shappening with your body,
what's happening with yourbreath, you know, what's
happening with this pose thatyou're trying to do? Take that
to the workplace setting. Toyour point, Troy, what's
happening in this moment?
Somebody's giving me feedback.
Why are they giving mefeedback? What do I need to
take away from this? How can Itry to listen to this and stay
focused instead of trying tosit there and think about how

(18:54):
you're gonna respond or why youalready don't like what they're
saying, or you already don'tagree with what they're saying,
or the reason they're sayingthis is because x, y, z
learning to keep all thosethings out and just stay in the
moment and in the presentmoment can help you learn to
listen better, but it alsohelps to set aside all the

(19:18):
judgments that you're havingabout yourself, or about the
person, or about the situation,or, you know. So I do think
that concept of quieting themind, staying focused, that
will help you to be a betterlistener, which certainly as a
leader, it's really hard to do.
You're thinking about the nextproject. You're thinking about
deadlines. You're thinkingabout why this person, maybe

(19:40):
it's the employee that alwayshas some complaint, or like,
all those things we like,that's natural, that's normal
human stuff. That's just how weoperate. But if you can learn,
it's a practice. It's not justgonna turn on and you're just
gonna be really good at it. Itis a practice, and you have to
keep doing it. But I do thinkthat that practice can, again,

(20:01):
I think it can make you abetter leader.

It's interesting you bring up that
point about reducing thejudgment that's there, because
it does seem like in a lot ofwhat we experience in the day,
and interactions, andespecially, again, going back
to the topic of like, you know,with this podcast and what we
do all day, dealing withfeedback and people receiving
it, there's plenty of, of roomthere for opportunity, I should

(20:25):
say, for people to judge indifferent ways. Judge in a way
to give feedback and but alsobe judging the person who is
giving them that feedback or ,and whatever the situation
might be. And so I guess withyoga, it's teaching these
principles that will help usquiet our mind and reduce that

(20:47):
judgment. Are there any otheradditional , ideas or ways that
yoga approaches this to help usreduce the judgment?

Yes. So there's, again, going back to kind of
these ancient texts, some ofthe ancient texts and yoga, and
the one by the way that just incase anybody's interested that
I'm referring to is this, thistext called Patanjali Yoga
Sutras. And it's a lot ofpeople might call him like the
father of yoga. I don't knowthat he invented it. I'm not

(21:18):
sure anybody knows, but hedocumented it, right? So, and
these are literally thousandsof years old. So in these
texts, he describes what iscalled the Eight Limbs of yoga,
and they're kind of thesedifferent components, if you
will. And so there's physicalpractices, only one of those
eight components, which is whatwe all think of as yoga, like
the movement and theflexibility and all that. But ,

(21:41):
part of the other eight limbsof yoga are sets of behaviors,
so kind of ethical behaviors orpractices that, you know, make
you a better person or make youhealthier or whatever. And one
of those. And I think to answeryour question, Michael, one of
them is this concept ofacceptance, or it's called

(22:03):
santosha , and it's acceptanceor contentment is often , i s
how it's described. And so howthat to me, plays out kind of
in modern times is everythingfrom being grateful for what
you're given and what you haveand accepting it. So the
project that you're given, theteam that you're given, the

(22:23):
assignment that you're given ina workplace as a leader,
instead of judging...

The boss that you're given.

Right! Why did I get this person on my team? Why
did I get this assignment? Whydon't they give it to so and so
? How come so and so never , gets this type of work? Or, a nd
then I think also as a leader,going back to your point about
j udgments, Michael, as aleader, it's so hard to not
place our own. I think it's onething to have expectations of
people, because there'sexpectations of a job,

(22:52):
expectations of how y ou behavein a workplace. Sometimes just
accepting people for who theyare a nd learning to be content
with it, and instead ofconstantly trying to change
them. And it doesn't mean, atleast from my perspective, it
doesn't mean you don't coachthem or give them feedback,
because you still have to helpthem be their best self. You

(23:16):
still have to help them performthe job that they're expected
to do. So if they're notmeeting expectations, t hen you
still have to have thoseconversations, but you're doing
it from the place of helpingthem discover their own
strengths, maybe buildcompetence, improve their
skills, not because you justdon't like the way they do it.

I like that.
Yes .

And that's where I think the di it's subtle,
it's nuance, but there's adifference between that
judgment of, well , I don'tlike the way this person does
it. Oh, I wish they would'vesaid it this way, or, I wish
they would've done this.
Versus, oh, actually there'sthis skill that they're
lacking. And then they would beso much more successful if they
could, you know, improve thatskill. It's subtle, but I

(24:00):
really do think there's adifference. And so this concept
of santosha, contentment,acceptance, like, I accept you
as you are, and I'm not gonnaconstantly be judging and
critiquing, but what I will tryto do as your leader is better
understand you, help you getbetter, maybe at the things you
wanna improve, but accept thatI'm not gonna change who you

(24:23):
kind of are at the core of yourperson.

I really liked what you just said there about
I'll help you get better at thethings you want to improve,
because that is such a vitalpart of trying to help someone
is, you know, if you're judgingthem and say , well, I just
think you should do this orthat, they're not interested in
that kind of feedback, they'renot interested in that. But if

(24:47):
you say, like you just said, ifI can understand you and what
it is that you want to improvein, and maybe I can give you
some advice about what thosethings should be, but as long
as you want to improve , thenthey're, they're ready to
accept that feedback, acceptthat advice, you know, as they,
as they try to improve. But itdoes come back to accepting

(25:09):
them for who they currently areas well.

Yeah. And I think, I think about in the
class that Glade does, youknow, feedback, jujitsu
somewhere in there, I rememberhim talking about, you don't
have to act on every piece offeedback that you're given. And
I think that that also applies,especially for leaders who are
in middle management. And thisis just kind of tying back to

(25:36):
this idea of contentment,acceptance. You'll be given
information, you'll be givenfeedback kind of from above. If
I think about it in a, youknow, chain of command and that
feedback might apply to yourteam. You don't have to repeat
every single item and pass thaton so that it comes across as a

(25:58):
barrage of critique that you'rejust passing on from above. You
can filter that. And to me,that's part of this idea of
kind of acceptance orcontentment. I accept that I'm
gonna be given all thisinformation, but I am content
with the way my team is, youknow, operating. I'm only gonna
give them the information thatthey really need to know. That

(26:19):
is helpful. And I don'tnecessarily think that all
leaders operate that way.
You're given information fromabove, so you just like spit it
back out to the team below you.
And you sometimes in doingthat, well one, you might be
saying, well, I don't reallyagree with it, but here's what,
so-and-so said, well, that's,we know that that's not
leadership, right? Number one,or you are taking it as if they

(26:41):
are your own beliefs, even ifyou don't agree with them . And
then it's not authentic, whichis, you know, also not good
leadership because you're justkind of regurgitating...

People will sense that. Yeah.

Yeah . And people can sense when it's
inauthentic.

Janina , y ou know, a little while ago we
were talking about mindfulnessand that ability to stay in the
present, and y ou t alked alittle bit about how yoga is at
least 2,500 years old. And Iwas thinking, gosh, if 2,500
years ago, if they had topractice mindfulness and they
felt like life was so busy,what must it be like today for

(27:17):
us? I know that, you know,another important principle is
to quiet the mind. And again,same thing applies, right? What
was going on 2,500 years agothat led to this need to quiet
the mind? And certainly we needeven more of that today. Can
you talk a little bit aboutthat principle in yoga and

(27:37):
maybe how it can apply to us inthe workplace as well?

Yeah, that's a really thoughtful question,
Troy. It's funny that you saidthat because I thought about
that too. It's like 2,500 yearsago, people had to take care of
their families, feed theirfamilies. And you know, if I
think about, if you had to growyour own, I don't know, like
your own vegetables, feed yourfamily , that sounds pretty
stressful , but probably a lotof us think that sounds less

(28:02):
stressful than like commutingan hour and like being in
back-to-back meetings, I don'tknow .

Yeah.

I guess there're just different kinds of stress.
And I think, you know, to yourpoint, I think just in general,
the idea of finding stillnessand quiet, having moments of
silence, which we don't have inour world very often these
days. I think those conceptsare underutilized. The idea

(28:29):
that you just would embracequiet, embrace a few moments of
stillness, embrace a fewmoments of quiet, because we
are, we're in, you know, again,we're, a lot of people are in
back-to-back meetings or peopleare constantly talking. They're
constantly, if they're nottalking, then they're
communicating. So they'rereceiving emails and then like
picking up their phone andlooking at their Facebook or

(28:51):
Instagram. So you're constantlyreceiving information and not
having quiet time to just allowthings to sink in. And I think,
number one, going back to theidea that you need to clear
those things out so that youcan think things through
clearly. When you have thingslike tough decisions to make as
a leader, or even just, youneed to think about how you're

(29:15):
going to word something. A lotof people don't take the time
to do that because there's justso much minutiae going on all
the time. So the practice offinding a little bit of quiet
time, finding some stillness,blocking out your calendar, I
think that's important. But Ithink on the other side of it
too, going back to, and it'srelated to what we talked about

(29:36):
earlier, the nervous system andall that is you have to allow
time for your brain and body torest. You need to replenish
your body. And I think thatpeople who are sleep experts
could talk about it from asleep perspective. If you are
not getting enough sleep,that's probably a whole other
situation. But if you can atleast find time to rest and

(30:00):
replenish for a short yogapractice, and I say that not
all yoga practices are restful,some of them are more physical.
But the ones that are morerestful, at least sitting down,
laying down, taking a morerestorative type of class that
quiets the mind, you're in aquiet room. You're, even if

(30:22):
you're with other people,nobody is talking except the
teacher. Maybe there is orisn't music, but the music, if
it is there, is quiet. I thinkagain, that helps you to just
restore the body, replenish andlearn to be present and in the
moment so that you can then bea better listener, be a better

(30:42):
leader, be a great employee. Ithink all of those things are
going to be improved when youtake the time to take care of
yourself in those ways.

I like that.
And as you were saying that,the thing that went through my
head was, I was just wondering,like for you , b eing a yoga
practitioner in your workday,do you do that? Like, you know,
you're in the office and you'redoing something, how did you
find ways to sort of find thatmental rest?

Yeah, that's a great question, Michael. A lot
of it depends on where you workand what the culture is. I
think that all companies, evenif you have a meeting heavy
organization, need to make timefor people to have some quiet
time. So I think it'schallenging because a lot of
organizations are meetingheavy. A lot of organizations,

(31:34):
I think value socializing andsome of the more extroverted
behaviors, which is also reallychallenging if you're an
introvert. But even extrovertsneed downtime, and we can
sometimes forget that. I thinkthat number one, I think people
need to leave time betweenmeetings. You know, when we're
in school, your school givesyou time because you have to

(31:55):
physically move from classroomto classroom, right ? Like when
you're school , high school,even college, I don't know why
corporate America hasn'tadopted that. Some companies
probably do. I'm sure there aresome companies that are better
at it than others. But I havenever, ever worked in a place
in my, I don't know, 20whatever years of working in
corporations. I've never workedat a place that actually

(32:17):
adopted it and did it well.
People would try it and then itwould fizzle out. But like,
start your meeting at 1:00 andend it at 1:50, so that from
1:50 to 2:00, if somebody doeshave a two o'clock, meaning
they have 10 minutes to, firstof all to use the restroom and
get a drink of water. Like,those are basic human needs .

(32:37):
But for people that do need alittle bit of stillness, they
could actually step into theiroffice, step outside, get some
fresh air, get some vitamin D,maybe do some breathing
exercises, maybe just go to aquiet corner if you have one in
wherever building you work inand find some stillness, find

(32:57):
some quiet. So I think it needsto happen more. So, for me
personally, I will say thatI've had the privilege of
working from home for manyyears, even before Covid and
after Covid. I mean, you know,pandemic aside, I've, I've had
a lot of jobs with a fair bitof flexibility, which has
allowed me to do things likehave a yoga practice where I

(33:21):
get up, go to yoga, and thencome home and start work. When
I've traveled, I've alwaysfound that it was, it was
harder for me, you know, justlike anybody, right. It's like
a hard, if you're not like asuper disciplined person to
stay in your routine. So I felt, I did find that things like
videos taking, you know, onlineclasses or just shortening it,
like it doesn't have to be afull hour. It could be a 15

(33:43):
minute stretching practice thatI do in the morning before I,
you know, head to work or inthe evening when I get home.
You know? So I have tried to dothose things. I'm not great at
doing it in the middle of aday. I'm definitely kind of a ,
once I get moving, there'slike, its hard to quiet the
mind, so , I wouldn't say I'mgreat at doing it in the middle

(34:03):
of the day. Yeah.

Yeah. But you have that moment that
opportunity at the beginning ofthe day to certainly clear your
mind, and focus, and thinkthrough things like that.

Well, you know, earlier Janina, you talked
about the eight limbs of yoga ,that were documented in the
yoga sutras. And I know thatone of them is non-attachment.
Can you talk a little bit aboutnon-attachment? That sounds to
me like it would beinteresting. Tell us a little
bit about what it means in yogaand then maybe how it relates
to the workplace.

Yeah, yeah. So this concept of non-attachment,
which I think is laid out askind of being not too greedy,
it is probably not what, howit's laid out in the original
text. But the way I think abouthow it applies maybe in the
workplace is the attachment toideas that we have. I think

(34:56):
that in a workplace setting, wehave, first of all, I think as
humans, we just think our ownideas are good. Like whatever,
like, oh, I think we should dothis. What with the marketing
idea, a project idea, the wayyou're gonna approach is
something. And even thingslike, I think people should act
a certain way or dress acertain way in the workplace.

(35:16):
And I just think thatunfortunately when we get
attached to whatever we thinkthe idea that we should do, or
the way a project should beapproached or who should run
the project, we can get pettyabout it. I just think that
that's unfortunately, and Ithink that pettiness is a form
of greed or selfishness. It'sbecause it's focused on me,

(35:39):
what's mine, my idea that typeof thing. And so in a workplace
that I think when you are tooattached to your idea is right,
or even if it's not yours, it'ssomeone else's idea, but you
got latched onto it, right?

Yeah.

It can crush creativity. It can crush
performance. Because if, oh,well I'm , you know, Janina
always says she wants to listento us in a meeting, but then
she never really listens to ourideas . She just wants to
implement her own thing. Ifthat's what people think of you
as a leader, you're reallygonna, they're gonna stop
bringing up ideas. It can, it'sgoing to stomp out any

(36:15):
creativity. It's probably gonnastart to cause disengagement in
a workplace, because why am Igonna keep showing up and
acting like I care and comingto meetings and putting my best
efforts in when nobody everlets me implement things the
way I want or my ideas. So I dothink that detaching yourself
from the idea that everything,all of your ideas are right, or

(36:40):
the belief that your ideas arethe best. You know, you already
know what you're doing and havenothing to learn. You know, I
think that that concept issomething that we can learn a
lot from. And it, once again,you can think you're good at
it, and then somebody doessomething. You're like, well.
So I do think that it's, again, it's a practice. It's, you're

(37:00):
never gonna just arrive at thatplace where you're just not
attached to anything ever . Ijust don't think you ever get
there .

That's a good point. Living sort of a yoga
influenced life. Right? It's apractice. I was curious though
, as you were talking about thenon-attachment. So then how do
people balance that with thecompany has like it's
objectives, it's trying toaccomplish something long term
this year, whatever. There'ssome, you know, initiative that

(37:31):
the company has. And so how dowe sort of, how do we balance
that?

Yeah. I think that is the challenge. I mean,
because you do have some thingsyou gotta stick with and you
know, these are the core valuesof the organization, or these
are the goals and objectivesfor the year. I think it's more
on maybe a personal level.

Okay.

So not getting attached, for example, to this
is the goal for the year. Thisis how I think we should
approach the goal.

Got it.

Versus, oh, but actually Michael has some good
ideas too. And Troy has somegood ideas too. So maybe we
could work together and be morecollaborative versus, oh, I
thought in January I said wewere gonna do this, and so
that's what we're gonna do.

Yeah.

Well, you did say that, but we've come up
with some better ideas sincethen. Right . So I think that's
where , that's where I think itkind of maybe plays out in the
real world.

Nice. Yeah.

Trying to get to the best idea, not necessarily,
and whose idea it was, doesn'tmatter ideally. Right?

Right.

Just what, what do we think is best? Let's talk
about the merits of each idea,rather than, well, this one
came from Michael. This onecame from Janina, Janina is the
boss. So we have to do that one, you know?

Yeah, yeah.
That's a good point too, Troy,because people can get attached
to title and those kind ofthings in the workplace and
who, who, where the directivecame from, that kind of stuff.
But Michael, you said somethingelse that was interesting,
which was in response to what Iwas saying about I think it's a
practice. You've never arrived.
At that place. I think it's thesame with leadership.

(39:09):
Leadership is a practice.
Leadership is not a title. Justbecause you think you're a good
leader or you are a goodleader, then you can get thrown
something that you've neverdealt with before. A new
personality. I mean, morerecently, think about all the
leaders that had never dealtwith a pandemic before. Right?
You might have been a reallygreat leader before that, and

(39:30):
then all of a sudden you're incomplete stress mode and the
skills that you had are justnot working. They don't work
the same, or they're, they'renot the ones that you need.
Now. They're a different set ofskills. So I think in the same
way that to your point, youknow, maybe I'm trying to live
a yogic lifestyle and lots ofother people are, if I believe

(39:50):
I'm a leader, I'm never donebeing a leader. It's a constant
practice. So I think that maybethat's why these overlap so
well, is they both kind ofdovetail in this concept that
you are never done gettingbetter. There's always room for
improvement. There's alwaysroom to be a better person, to
be a better leader, to be abetter employee, to hone your

(40:13):
craft, whatever it is. So just,again, that concept that
there's constantself-improvement to, I don't
know , be a better human being.
So I think that maybe that'swhy they just overlap so well.

I like that.
Anything else that we want tocover things? I mean, Michael
and I are both relative newbiesat yoga. Are we missing
anything in this overlapbetween the practice of yoga
and leadership?

That's a good, I know that's another question
that I feel like I could justkeep talking about it. There's
one other thing that I think Imight just mention, which is,
in yoga, there's this conceptof tapis , which is inner fire
or discipline. And a lot oftimes you'll hear it in
reference to a physicalpractice, this concept that

(41:05):
you're building heat in thebody and that by building heat,
conceptually by building heatin the body, you're burning off
like impurities, bad energy,you know, that kind of thing.
But I think it's also aninteresting concept that when
you are building this innerfire , this discipline, I think

(41:26):
that again, helps you inleadership. Discipline is a
form of self-control. It's notjust about doing the same
things every day or having aroutine. It can be about
self-control. It can be aboutorganization, it can be about
controlling reactive impulses.
So I just think, again, thatconcept to me is something that

(41:51):
I've thought about. It's notjust about, oh, I actually do
my physical practice everysingle day. That's great. But
doing the physical and themental work are things that
again, can just carry youforward into other aspects of
your life, because you'relearning to build discipline.
You're learning to build thisinner fire. Which again, ties

(42:14):
to all those things I talkedabout, self-control, willpower,
controlling your reactions, youknow, those kinds of things. So
I think taking up the practiceis a way that you start to
build that and learn thoseskills.

I think it sounds like too, it also can benefit
you in sort of endurance or thediscipline of sticking with the
job, even if it is difficult,if you have a particularly
difficult yoga sessionphysically. Right? Poses that
you've never done before orthat are difficult to maintain.
But staying with that andenduring through the discomfort

(42:51):
to reach a point where you'vegained a new skill or you've
achieved something that you'venever done before because you
stayed with that challenge,even though it was difficult,
that to me, that fits underdiscipline as well.

Yeah. Yeah.
There's also, it could be notphysically challenging, it
could be mentally challenging.
Some people have a really hardtime being quiet and staying
still. And so that kind ofpractice can actually be
challenging too, I think. And Ithink that, by the way, I don't
think yoga is the only placethat you can learn that. I
think discipline and that kindof inner fire, and that could

(43:24):
probably be learned throughrunning, right? Like, I think
you're a runner, Michael,right? The discipline, the,
okay, this is uncomfortable andI'm just gonna keep going. I
gotta stay focused. I thinkthat can be probably learned in
other places too. But, youknow, for example, I don't like
running. So that, I don't knowif that that's gonna work for
me. Maybe I have to just getthrough it longer, and I would

(43:46):
be able to build thediscipline. But yeah, I do
think that it is also aboutlearning to accept the
discomfort and just realizethat it's there, be present
with it, move past it orrealize that this isn't for me
and I need to try a differentthing. I mean, sometimes that's

(44:06):
important too.

Yeah, I was thinking about that idea of,
okay , so part of what we'retrying to do is sort of rest,
you know, steal the mind andfocus, right.? And what we're
doing. And there's an aspect ofthat with like, I'm just
thinking about when I go onusually in longer runs, and if
I'm just out there and I'm justkind of thinking about things,

(44:28):
right? So it's not necessarily,I don't know if maybe it is a
focus in a sense. I'm thinkingI might be thinking about
something with work, you know,and mulling it over and you
have a great idea come, youknow, come to mind. Right. So
I'm just thinking about thatidea of am I present if I'm
thinking about things thatwork. But that's also if
creating that opportunity andthat focus in that aspect of

(44:53):
it, to have the idea come tomind. Yeah. Like, am I doing it
wrong? If I am doing my, myyoga or on my long run? And my
focus isn't on the immediatepresent thing , it's on
something else.

I think there's this concept of you're not
doing things right or wrongever really in yoga. That's
sort of a little bit of thephilosophy. I will temper that
with, in the physical practice,there are things like
physically there's alignment,there's things like that

(45:28):
principles that, you know, mostpractices would talk about. But
even in the mental, whensomebody is laying there in
class and all these thingsstart popping in your head,
and, you know, I can't seewhat's in your head, but as
you're saying that, oh, shetold me to quiet the mind and
I'm thinking about all thisstuff. Part of the practice is

(45:50):
giving yourself grace andsaying, it's okay, let it go.
Janina, don't beat yourself upbecause you can't focus today.
That's also part of thepractice, is allowing those
thoughts to just happen. Andmaybe I don't have to solve 'em
all right now. I don't have tojudge them, let them go.
They're just gonna swirlthrough sometimes. But that's

(46:11):
how you cleared the mind alittle bit. Let them,

Let them onto the stage and then let them exit
the stage too.

Yeah. And I think, but what you're talking
about Michael, I think is alittle bit different. You may
find, for example, that youhave a problem you're trying to
sort through. And you needfocus time to think about it
with nobody talking to you orno tv, no music, whatever.
Yeah. Going for a run does thatbecause it, and it actually

(46:37):
does change the brain when yougo running, right? Like, so
that is a little different.
Most of the time in a yogapractice, the teacher wouldn't
say, I want you to think abouta problem that you're dealing
with and like, lay here andthink through . It would be the
opposite way to say, like, Iwant you to not think about, I
want you to let go ofeverything that has happened up
to this moment in time, and forthe next hour, I just want you

(46:59):
to breathe and move your body .

Yeah .

Michael, as I've been thinking about the way you
described it, I think whatyou're talking about is kind of
a flow state of your mind whereyour body is busy running. And
your brain's like, okay, I'vegot that down and I'm, we're
happy doing this, and now I'mfree. And you're focused on the
thing in kind of a flow statewhere there's not multiple

(47:23):
thoughts coming in, or you'renot like bouncing from topic to
topic, but your brain is like,Hey , in, in my subconscious,
I've been generating somethoughts and I'm gonna bring
them up to the surface. Nowthat you're in kind of this
flow state, mentally, so it maynot be the quiet and stillness.
But it's also not the every daydealing with email and social

(47:47):
media and texts and the phonecalls and everything. It's
'cause you're off by yourself.
So it's a focused state, evenif it's not necessarily a quiet
state.

Yeah.

That's kind of my take on it.

No , that's a good point, Troy, because I
think, again, even in, there'sso many different kinds of
yoga, and when I refer tostillness and quiet, even in a
very physical, rigorous typepractice, again, to me it's
still a quieting of the mind.
Because if you are focused onwhat you are physically doing,

(48:20):
and if that is in a hot, sweatyyoga practice, I'm focused on
this moment that still to me isa lot quieter than everything
else that's going on in theworld around me, outside of
this mat and outside of thestudio. So the idea that quiet
and stillness isn't just likelaying down and meditating,
that also could be part of ayoga practice. But when I refer

(48:44):
to that quiet and stillness, itisn't just like a physical
stillness and quiet. It couldbe because there's different
kinds of practices, but thatI'm just gonna be here for this
next 30 or 60 minutes and trynot to think about a thousand
other things that I need to dotoday. That is, is kind of part
of the practice too. Yeah.

Yeah. Well and that may be like, as I was
describing it and talking aboutit, probably we more so than
like the stillness and the isis the presence of mind, right.
And maybe that's more thedistinction I was trying to get
is, you know , where do I, whenif I'm, so if I'm doing yoga
and the point is to be present,I guess you could say, okay,

(49:31):
yeah. For this, you're going toget the most benefit. Even if
you spend the next, you know,30 minutes, 6 0 minutes being
present on what we are doing inthis yoga session, think about
that work problem another time.
you know, doing something else.
But, t his will help you whenyou go to think about that, v

(49:56):
ersus the possibility of beingin there doing the yoga thing
and what you're doing in t heyoga, but being very, but
you're very much thinking aboutthis one particular, you know,
problem or issue that's maybepulling you away and maybe
you're losing a certainbenefit. You might still get a
benefit out of it by havingthat time to just where you're
thinking about it, but yo ur tr ade. It's a trade of f b

(50:19):
etween another benefit youwould get. Maybe.

I was gonna ask in , you know, when Michael goes
running, his body is doing avery repetitive motion .

Yeah.

So he can tune out of the physical part of that.
Do you get to the point ifyou're an experienced yoga
practitioner where you can,your body is on, sort of on
autopilot where you're doingthe practice, but your brain
can be focused on somethingelse? Or do you always have to
be focused and present on whatis the next pose? How am I

(50:51):
getting from here to my nextpose? What's that like?

Yeah, so , a couple things. One, you can get
to that point. And becausethere's, for a variety of
reasons, there's differentkinds of practices. So there
are yoga practices where you dothe same sequence every single
time you practice. So you'recreating muscle memory, but
you're also, you know, creatingstrength. It doesn't mean it
feels the same every day .

(51:16):
because as we know, you can dothe same thing every day and
the next day you're like, oh ,this was totally easy
yesterday. But it is a littlebit easier, at least for me, I
find that it's easier to getdistracted because like, oh,
I've already done this like sixtimes . Right? So like, it is a
little easier I think mentallyjust be like, oh, I know what's
coming next. What isinteresting is that as a

(51:37):
teacher, and as a student, I'veheard this too, I've heard
teachers say, don't try toguess like where we're going
next. Like, so if it's not aclass that is the same every
time, the sequence is a littledifferent. The style's a little
different. And that is atechnique to mix it up so that
you can't get, like, you needto stay focused. Don't just

(51:57):
assume that you know wherewe're going when I'm about to
give you instructions. Andsometimes it feels like a
little bit like a bait andswitch. They're trying to trick
me. But I really do find thatsometimes teachers do that
because they want you to staypresent. And one of the ways,
it's a trick to get you know,in a way to stay present, to
not tell you, oh, we're gonnado this. Like, we're not gonna

(52:17):
do the exact same thing that wealways do. I'm gonna change it
up a little bit today. So Ithink to your point about the
value of being able to bepresent and stay focused, it
has a lot of benefits, not justphysically, you know, mentally,
emotionally. But I do thinkthat you clear the mind, you go

(52:41):
through the practice, and thenwhen you walk out of that room
or you step off of your mat athome, you can say, okay, now I
like, now I feel like I canthink through that problem. And
so then maybe you do, you gofor a run, you go for a walk
and you like, oh, I'm gonnawrite down. Like, and there may
have even been some things thatpopped in your head during that

(53:02):
practice because you started toclear the mind on like
solutions start coming. You canlet those come in and out. And
I think you said Troy, let thementer and then exit stage left.

Yeah.

And then they'll probably still come back to you
again afterwards. Oh, I think Isolved that. Like, I think it
came up during my yoga practiceand I saw it pass through my,
you know, brain and then like,I ignored it, but now I think I
know how to solve it and youcan, you know, maybe write it
down. So again, I think thatthat comes from learning to
stay focused and clear themind.

Yeah. Okay. If somebody's been listening
today, they've never tried yogabefore, but they're intrigued
and they're interested howwould you recommend that
someone get started?

Great question.
So I think, probably my numberone recommendation is to try a
lot of different styles andsettings. And the reason I say
that is because there are somany different types of yoga.
There's a more physical,rigorous practice. There's
heated, there's non-heated,there's more calming and

(54:09):
restorative practices like yinor restorative yoga. Then
there's doing it at home versusdoing it in a studio. All of
those settings are sodifferent. And if you've never
done it before, I will say thatas somebody who's been doing it
for a long time, I can stillremember when it was very

(54:30):
intimidating and I would benervous to even go by myself
because it felt maybe judgy orI just didn't feel comfortable,
or am I doing it right or arepeople watching me? Or, you
know, those kind of things,which I think, again, are just
kind of normal human thoughts.
So if that feels that way, thensometimes you need to like, try

(54:52):
it at home first or bring afriend, talk somebody into
going with you know, and it andevery setting is different. You
might find that you really likedoing it at the community
center, or you might find, oh,you didn't really like that
setting. You like it at thegym, or you like it in a
studio. I mean, they're alljust so different. And I would
also tell people that there's alot of variety and what it will

(55:14):
cost. Obviously, if you just doit at home, you might not even
need a mat. You could do it onyour rug at home with a free
video, you know, you mentioned.
But if you wanna go to a studioand it's too intimidating, then
just do their free trial or dothe, like the one of the
studios I teach at has a twoweek pass that's like $50
unlimited, so you can try allthe different things. But

(55:37):
there's also lots of placesthat do free or relatively
inexpensive classes, like acommunity center, a library,
you know, things like that. Oryour first class is free. I
would just say try lots ofthings because it's like
anything you could go the firsttime and the first time you do
anything, you're not gonna beusually good at it.

Good Point.

Right? So, and if you're not good at
something, then you don't feelconfident. You don't feel
comfortable, you might notwanna go back. So I would just
say, if you take the time toreflect on what , what didn't I
like about it? Oh, I didn'treally like the people, or I
didn't really like the setting,or it didn't feel clean, or it
was too fast. And then justexplore what your other options

(56:17):
are, because there's so manydifferent kinds of yoga.

I know sometimes people are even even concerned
about, well, what should Iwear? I don't want to stand out
in what I'm wearing when I goto my first class.

Yes, I know and it shouldn't matter. But we
live in a world where thatmatters anywhere you go, what ,
what you wear to running . Yeah. Where to the gym, what you, I
mean there's just, we'rebombarded with so much media. I
also would suggest for peopleif they are going to a class
that's a studio or a gym orcommunity class, to ask the

(56:52):
people that work there, itmight seem like, oh , I don't
wanna ask that stupid question.
When you see their reaction,you'll know whether or not
you're gonna feel comfortableat that studio if they act like
that's was a stupid goodquestion, you probably don't
wanna go there.

Yeah.

You know, I had somebody that walked in the
other day. I was at the, thisone of the places that I teach,
and somebody walked in and shegoes, oh , I'm really nervous.
And I said, there's no reasonto be nervous. Let me tell you
what you can expect from thisfirst class. If somebody
doesn't react that way, if theyact like, why are you nervous?
Right? If , I mean, it's just,you can see it in the way
people react to you. And Iwould hope that most yoga

(57:28):
studios, if they're adoptingall the philosophies we've been
talking about, they are openand friendly and kind and
welcoming and non-judgmentaland, you know. So hopefully
they'll let you know that itdoesn't matter what you wear. I
mean, obviously try to wearsomething that's comfortable,
but it doesn't have to be skintight yoga pants and you know,
half top it could be sweatpantsand a T-shirt. And if you're in

(57:51):
a heated class, make sure thatit's something that you can
peel off layers if you getsweaty so you don't wanna pass
out. Right. Like those kind ofthings. But I do think that
people should just not beafraid to ask a question even
if they think it's stupid,because you'll also be able to
tell in the reaction of thepeople that work there, whether
or not you think you're gonnafeel comfortable.

Nice.

Cool. Well, Janina, thank you so much.
We've really appreciated yourtime. This has been a
fascinating conversation. It'sfun to dive into something
tangential to feedback, but notdirectly feedback. I've learned
a lot today. Michael, thanksfor joining us today as well.
It's been fun to have you aspart of the conversation.

Yeah. This has been a lot of fun to be on
it. And I'm also just wonderingwith Janina when she's going to
offer her corporate packagesand stuff like that for people
to be, you know, trying thisout in , in their businesses
and stuff. But , anyway,something to think about
Janina.

Yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's, it's something Ihaven't explored yet, but it
does seem like it would be, Iknow there are organizations
that offer, you know, yoga totheir employees or have maybe
incorporated it on occasionfor, you know, maybe a
corporate event, things likethat.

Yeah.

I haven't incorporated it yet. I think
for those who are listening tothe podcast, they know that
from the last one that I juststarted my own business very
recently.

Yes.

So I haven't quite gotten to that type of
offering yet. But I am alsohappy while the , you know,
yoga isn't the core of mybusiness, I'm certainly happy
if somebody is looking toincorporate yoga into maybe
their leadership development ortheir kind of employment
package to talk to people aboutit. And also if somebody is

(59:35):
just interested in developingtheir own yoga practice in
order to become a betterleader, or they're looking to
explore that kind of concept,I'm certainly happy to have
conversations with peoplebecause I'm just clearly
passionate about talking aboutit. So

Awesome.
Yeah. So again, like last time,they can find you, I'm sure on
LinkedIn and then remind us ofyour website, share with the
audience.

Yes . So my website is www.enzenia.com. And
that's E-N-Z-E-N-I-A. You won'tfind any yoga content on there.
But that is the , so at leastyou'll find my picture, you'll
probably find a small mentionof like, my dogs , my yoga in
my bio. That's, that's who Iam. That's where you find me.

(01:00:21):
And they can, there's a contactme form, so somebody can also
just send me an email there.

Michael Crowther (01:00:27):
Perfect.

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49. What Leaders Can Learn from Yoga - Janina Abiles

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}49. What Leaders Can Learn from Yoga - Janina Abiles