February 14, 2024 • 29 mins
Michelle DiTondo is a visionary leader in her field and emphasizes the importance of accepting professional feedback by highlighting experiences and insights from her career. She shares the importance of embracing feedback, how to intentionally work towards improvement, and the importance of humility in leadership.
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Check out the free Q&A videos that we have produced with tips to help you receive feedback graciously and act on it visibly at www.learningbridge.com/tips.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle DiTondo (00:01):
You can't be a leader if nobody's willing to
follow you. So, you know, youhave to make a choice to either
change or to not be a veryeffective leader if the
feedback that you get is partof what's holding back your
team, reaching their fullpotential.
Troy Blaser (00:23):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to Simply Feedback thepodcast brought to you by
Learning Bridge . I'm yourhost, Troy Blaser. I'm happy to
have you along with us today. Iam excited about our guest on
today's episode. Let me justgive a quick introduction. Our
guest today is MichelleDiTondo, who is a visionary
leader in organizationaltransformation. Michelle is a
(00:46):
principal at Avion Consultingand a former CHRO of a Fortune
300 company with a remarkablehistory of leading a culture
and organizational shift for88,000 employees. Michelle
brings a profound understandingof how culture fortifies an
organization's brand andstrategy. Her dedication to
(01:06):
driving transformational changeand fostering inclusive
workplaces has made significantimpacts across various
industries. At AvionConsulting, Michelle and her
team of leadership developmentprofessionals are committed to
unlocking human potential,offering customized solutions
to enhance both people, andbusiness performance. Michelle,
(01:27):
welcome to Simply Feedbacktoday. It's so great to have
you with us for this episode.
Michelle DiTondo (01:31):
Thank you.
Thank you Troy for having metoday. Super excited to just
exchange some ideas.
Troy Blaser (01:36):
Yeah, well, I'm looking forward to it. You
know, I read through your biojust now to kind of introduce
you, but I wonder it wouldprobably help us all get to
know you a little bit better ifyou could share a time when
somebody gave you some feedbackand maybe some feedback that
had an impact on your life ormarked a turning point in your
career , something along thoselines.
Michelle DiTondo (01:55):
Sure. There's probably actually two at
different points in my career.
So I've told this story many,many times. Early on in my
career when I worked forAmerican Express in my mid to
late twenties, I had a womanwho I would consider to be
probably my first and mostimpactful mentor. She was the
head of HR for the group that Iworked in American Express, and
(02:18):
I was an HR generalist at thetime. She was a senior HR
leader and would frequentlysend me in her place to
meetings in New York City withall the other heads of HR and
the first time she did that,you know, I, it's a lot of
pressure, stress. I was gonnabe with these people who were
older than I was, who was moretenured than I was. And I think
(02:39):
she could sense that I waslacking in confidence and a
little tentative. And so, youknow, I always remember this
one sentence that she told mebecause she could see how
nervous I was and how muchpressure I was feeling, but she
said, I want you to keep inmind that everyone in that room
will have more experience thanyou. Which she said, no one in
(03:00):
the room is going to be smarterthan you. And I've always taken
that into situations whereimposter syndrome was kind of
entering my head and I feltlike I didn't deserve to be in
the room. That was one of, Ithink, the most impactful
pieces of feedback that I had .
I think later in my career, Ihad an executive coach when I
(03:22):
was the CHRO. At MGM, which Ibelieve in regular coaching
throughout a career. I thinkhaving external advice and
having candid feedback thatsomeone can collect for you is
always helpful. For growth anddevelopment. And I think you
have different responsibilitiesat each level. So an executive
coach, well into my tenure as aCHRO, and she'd done interviews
(03:46):
with my staff and with mycolleagues and with my
leadership. And you know, oneof the pieces of feedback that
she shared that I really wishwould've been earlier in my
career was that when I'm inconversations with others, that
that time was all about themand for them and not for me.
And I think before that, I'dalways thought of one-on-ones
(04:08):
as a time because we had tonsof things going on, and I had
pretty senior level HR peoplewho were leading big
initiatives. And so I alwaysthought of the one-on-one time
was a time for them to updateme on what was going on with
the projects that they wereleading. And I think that piece
of feedback shifted my thinkingto, you know, that time was a
time for me to talk about whatthey were really struggling
(04:30):
with and how I might be able tohelp them versus them reporting
out to me. And again, probablylater in my career than I
wished it would've been, but atleast I got that feedback. And
I , I think it was impactful inhow I thought about my role and
how I spent my time with thepeople that reported to me.
Troy Blaser (04:49):
I like that it , it makes me stop and think,
okay, how am I doing as I haveone-on-ones, you know, with the
people that, that I'msupervising, or even the
one-on-ones with the peoplethat I'm reporting up to. You
know, how am I spending thattime? What , what is the most
useful way to spend it? Sothat's important reminder. And
I also really liked your firststory because it makes me think
(05:12):
of, you know, the mentors thatI had early on in my own career
as well. I think for manypeople it's easy to sort of
look back and remember thatcertain manager or, you know,
that peer or whatever that washad a big influence early on.
Michelle DiTondo (05:27):
Yeah. I credit her for really being the
reason I was able to get to aCHRO role in my career, because
early on, she, and this, it wasjust not me. It was the many of
others who were on her team.
She stretched us to a point ofextreme discomfort. But I think
(05:48):
that we grew significantlyworking for her. And, you know,
and she was always there tohelp us and support us and have
our back, but really stretchedus. And, you know, I think
developmentally, like she puther own reputation on the line
by sending us in her place, butthen, you know, helped to
prepare us so that we would besuccessful.
Troy Blaser (06:09):
Yeah. Your two stories together sort of point
out the contrast in the kindsof feedback that we receive at
different stages of our careertoo. So obviously, I mean,
early in a career you'regetting feedback from a mentor.
You're, you know, you'relearning to have that
confidence and differentstrategies to be able to have
that confidence in the room.
(06:30):
And then later on when you're aCHRO, you're getting, you've
got an executive coach who'shelping to gather that feedback
because frankly, it can bechallenging to offer frank
feedback to someone in thatposition. Right. But it's, it's
so important.
Michelle DiTondo (06:48):
Absolutely.
Troy Blaser (06:48):
So you have to kind of think about it in a
different way than when you'rea brand new employee starting
out and there's managers allaround that are ready to offer
advice. Right.
Michelle DiTondo (06:57):
And we often, at Avion , we coach leaders who
are in their first, you know,one or two executive roles. And
I think the hard thing tounderstand is how much the
expectations of you change ateach level in the organization.
So, you know, my two stories atthe beginning was all about
have the confidence, give yourpoint of view and talk. And
(07:19):
towards the end of my career,it was ask questions and listen
more. And don't always be thefirst to talk and jump in. But
you know, as you become moresenior, you can impact others
much more significantly thanyou even realize because, you
know, for all, as you spendtime in your career, 20 years
can seem like two years. Andyou don't realize the impact
(07:42):
that you have on others whenyou're changing levels and
roles in an organization.
Troy Blaser (07:47):
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. The , it's interesting
you talk about the work thatyou do at Avion , and obviously
you have your own uniquebackground as you work at Avion
and you work with differentclients, different
organizations. Can you tell usabout a common kind of problem
that you help solve for yourclients?
Michelle DiTondo (08:07):
I mean, I , you know, we do a couple of
different things. We doleadership development, we do
coaching, we do culturetransformation, a variety of
different things that are allrelated to leadership and
employee engagement. I thinkthat leadership skills,
development of leadershipskills and how to do that is
common across all industries,all organizations. And, you
(08:31):
know, I think at all levels inthe organization, it's
something that as when I workedinternally as a CHRO, we always
struggled with in theorganizations I worked in, and,
you know, with our clients,this is the reason why we
exist, is to help leaders driveperformance in organizations.
It's all about how do we getthe most we can from those who
(08:55):
are on our teams, how can theybe their best selves and
deliver the best performanceday to day ? And inevitably the
way to do that gets down totheir leaders and how their
leaders behave and how t heirleaders support them to, to
deliver on performanceobjectives.
Troy Blaser (09:15):
It's funny, I was just thinking about this the
other day. I'll just share abrief story of my own. Growing
up in the eighties andnineties, I, like many young
men in those times, I was a boyscout and ended up going to
what they called juniorleadership training for a week,
where, you know, I was 14 yearsold and it was a week we were
(09:35):
camping up in the mountains. Welearned, I think, 12 specific
leadership skills as part ofthis Boy Scout camp. And I,
I've thought about that a lotover the years because I think
what I thought was how manypeople grow up and are never
taught leadership skills inparticular. You know, I went to
college, graduated in computerscience, but nowhere along the
(09:56):
way was, was I trained onhere's how to be a leader in
your field of computer science.
Right. It was all aboutprogramming and building
databases and, and software andthings like that. You talked
about how important it is theleaders are in an organization
and the skills that thoseleaders have. And maybe that's
easy to miss for someorganizations and for some
leaders to, to focusspecifically on the leadership
(10:19):
skills. And so it sounds likethat's something that you can
bring into an organization.
Michelle DiTondo (10:24):
I think, I think every organization or
leader would agree with theimportance of leadership. It's
kind of like that, you know,it's common sense, it makes
sense, but oftentimes isn'tcommon when you just get to
execution day to day . Um , youknow , uh, consistency in how
(10:44):
we lead people being able tomaintain a strategy or path
when we get into times ofstress. So I think everyone
believes it, it doesn't alwaysring true when we're in our
day-to-day, roles and , andperforming day-to-day.
Troy Blaser (11:05):
Yeah. So when you have an engagement with an
organization, and maybe it isto, to help with their
leadership skills to help theirleaders, what changes do you
get to observe in anorganization from, you know,
before the engagement starts,through the engagement to the
end of it? What , what are someof the things that you see the
, the solutions that you seethat come into play?
Michelle DiTondo (11:28):
You know, I , I think that we're pretty
customized in our approach. Ithink we have a standard
process that we follow mostfrequently. Typically with an
assessment of where you are nowand where you want to be, where
, whether that's individuallyas a leader or as a team or an
organization where you aretoday and where do you want to
(11:50):
be. And then, you know, onceyou kind of identify what that
gap is, the interventions orthe solutions to get you from A
to B can be different. So, youknow, it can be facilitation of
team dynamics, it can be someassessments that we use to give
feedback to leaders or somepersonality assessments. It can
(12:12):
be , uh, coaching just onesenior leader on how they
develop their team . So thesolutions might be different,
but I think, you know, we're ,we've seen and we have measured
success is when a leader has acoach and they have clarity
around where they are today,their strengths, development
areas, what they want toachieve from a business
(12:34):
strategy standpoint, you know,what's gonna hold them back and
stand in their way and what'sgonna help them get to point B.
Once they have clarity aroundthat, then if they're willing
to grow and to change, andregardless of the level and
their tenure and how longthey've been a leader, if
they're willing to reallyaccept feedback and to take
(12:57):
typically really small actions,then, you know, we see
significant change both in howthey're perceived as leaders,
as well as the results thattheir teams can deliver.
Troy Blaser (13:08):
Hmm . I like that.
So if I'm a leader in anorganization somewhere kind of
looking around, maybe I'mwondering to myself, do I need
some outside assistance? Orhow, how is my organization
doing with leadership ingeneral? Are there ways for
someone to know kind of where,where they're at and say, well,
that's not where I want to be.
(13:29):
What are some signs, I guess,that they ought to bring in
some help from outside?
Michelle DiTondo (13:34):
I mean, typically we, you know, people
connect with us if they have,and I , I don't necessarily
want to say a problem to solvebecause sometimes it's, we're
growing too fast, which isn'tnecessarily a problem. But how
do we maintain our values andour beliefs and our culture
while we grow? But typicallypeople will come to us because
they want to improveperformance. You know, that's
(13:56):
our firm's belief is how do weimprove performance in
organizations? How do we getorganizations to perform better
through people? And our clientscome to us because they either
know that they can do more orthey need to do more, or they
know that to maintain theircurrent performance levels,
they're gonna have to make sometype of change. So they come to
(14:17):
us because they recognize thatthey can perform better t han
they're currently performing today.
Troy Blaser (14:24):
Hmm . I , I liked what you said a minute ago. You
talked about if they're willingto change, then it's typically
just a few small adjustments.
Do you run into leaders whoaren't willing to change?
Michelle DiTondo (14:36):
Of course. I mean, you know, I think that
especially the more senior youget in the organization when
you've been rewarded for your,you know, being who you are ,
um, oftentimes in spite of whoyou are, but people don't get
to senior levels without beingsuccessful in achieving
regardless of how they did thatin an organization. And so, you
(14:57):
know, there's some reluctance,I think, especially the more
tenure you get in your careerand at certain levels we mostly
deal with executives. And soonce you get to a certain
level, recognizing that there'sa need for change can be hard.
And oftentimes , you know,people can become defensive
(15:18):
when they first hear feedback.
I , you know, I've been in thatposition if I've gotten really
tough feedback to try toexplain why that was or why
that person was giving thatfeedback. And, you know, we
hear all the same thingsprobably we've thought about in
our career, said we hear fromtheir common responses to
really constructive feedback.
(15:39):
And so, you know, there isresistance. It's much harder
because during the time ofengagement, you could spend
most of your time just tryingto get someone to recognize
that, you know, perception isreality. And, you know, I've
told people before I'm like,you can't be a leader if
nobody's willing to follow you.
So, you know, you have to makea choice to either change or to
(16:01):
not be a very effective leaderif the feedback that you get is
part of what's holding backyour team, reaching their full
potential.
Troy Blaser (16:10):
That makes sense.
So I've been at Learning Bridgefor a long time, over 20 years
now. What are some ways that Ican guard against that sort of
fixed mindset of, well, it'sworked so far, so I probably
don't need to change anythingright now. What are some ways
that I can be open to the ideathat maybe some change
isneeded?
Michelle DiTondo (16:29):
I mean, I'm, I'm a believer in, I've always
been a part of internally andorganizations are externally
just getting consistentfeedback on your performance,
which is why when I was in ac-level seat, I had a coach.
Why I believe that it ishelpful for people to have an
external coach inorganizations, just because I
(16:52):
think you could be more candidif someone is external with
what you're thinking and whatyou're struggling with. So
almost every organization thatI've worked into has had
feedback, either 360 feedbackfor leaders in roles as well as
organizational feedback throughemployee surveys. I think
having that as a regular partyof your process and having
(17:14):
leaders reflect on this is whatI'm hearing, what I'm willing
to do this year, I think helpsto develop that growth mindset.
If you're just in a continuouscycle of this time of the year,
we get feedback and then, youknow, next month I have to
think about what I'm gonna doto grow and develop. It's, I
think, much less likely thatyou'll be in a regular cycle of
(17:34):
defensiveness especially if youhear the same feedback over and
over .
Troy Blaser (17:38):
I like that. Well, talking about people receiving
feedback and the the timesyou've been able to engage with
a client, I wonder if there's aspecific experience or a time
when you have been able to seefeedback cause a point of
inflection in somebody's careeror in their life. Is there a
story there that you couldshare with us?
Michelle DiTondo (17:57):
I'll share a story that the leader that I
reported to at MGM, who's stilla friend of mine, who I greatly
respect, we were very closepartners, and I, I would say
almost opposites if you thinkabout any type of assessment
personality or thought process.
We were, his background was aCFO and I'd always been in HR,
(18:19):
but I think collectively wemade really good decisions
because we challenged eachother. He always told the story
and he's, he shared it manytimes publicly, so I don't feel
uncomfortable sharing it. Earlyon in his , um, in his CFO
career, so he was already in asenior level role, but not at
the corporate level. He was oneof our, the business unit, you
(18:41):
know, CFOs and brilliant whenit comes to operations and
detail, and was someone thatjust knows a lot about
everything. And I think reallyhelped to create structure and
make sure that the businessmade thorough, thoughtful
decisions. So what his feedbackwas around, though, was on how
he communicated with people,especially when he was under
(19:04):
stress. If he were under stressor if he was upset about
something, he tended to have areaction that frightened
people. I mean, he would raisehis voice, his anger would be
visible. And at the time, the,who would become our CEO and
our chairman was his, hisleader at the time and told him
(19:25):
they were, they were goodfriends and he was invested in
his career. And he told him, hesaid, this is gonna hold you
back. And he said, you will notmove forward in this company if
you aren't able to change, youknow, how you communicate and
how you make people feel. Andhe worked on it really
intently. And, you know, hegave permission to people like
(19:46):
me who were, you know, aroundhim regularly to let him know
if he, you know, fell off thewagon or if he had an impact on
someone that he didn't intendto. And, you know, when those
times did happen, he wouldapologize and take a step back
or apologize in public if hefound himself, you know,
(20:08):
starting to fall back on someof those old behaviors. But I
think his leader who took thetime to tell him that probably
was responsible for his career,and him becoming a chief
operating officer of, you know,fortune 300 company.
Troy Blaser (20:24):
Wow, that is a major change , uh, or a major
success for a small change.
Michelle DiTondo (20:30):
And it , you know, it stayed top of mind for
him. I think probably to thisday it's top of mind for him as
the one thing that he needs towork on and be aware of as a
leader. And he's veryself-aware and intentional
about it. And because oneleader took the time to say,
this is gonna stand in your wayof where you want to go if you
(20:52):
can't fix it. You know, typicalcase, and we see this all the
time in organizations, hightechnical performer that needed
to improve a leadership, youknow, interpersonal type of
skill and , you know, I thinkthe courage of a leader to say,
you know, you probably won'tmove ahead if you don't fix
this, even though you'rebrilliant technically, I think,
(21:14):
you know, had a huge impact onhis career.
Troy Blaser (21:17):
Interesting. An impact on his career, probably
also an impact on his personallife. Maybe we'll just, we'll
just talk about this question.
As you think about our audienceof HR professionals, others
kind of in the same realm thatyou are working in consulting
in. And you know, we're notasking you to give away your
secret sauce necessarily, butare there some things that you
(21:39):
could share with someone in asimilar situation as you?
Michelle DiTondo (21:42):
I, you know, throughout I think the course
of my career, especially in theCHRO role, and reinforced, I
think even more so as aconsultant, is as ambiguous as
leadership skills and cultureare, it's all a process to work
on improving it. So I havewhether I've been coaching
(22:04):
leaders, one-on-one orfacilitating a discussion
around improvement with a groupor, you know, a senior
leadership team or group ofleaders, is to become really
clear about where you are andwhere you want to be. Whether
it's where are you today andwhere do you want to be in
three or five years, what's thegap? And then thinking about
(22:27):
what do we need to do betweennow and then to close the gap
to get to where you want to be.
And I think when you have clearpictures of this is what's
happening today and what wewant it to be like, then I
think the path becomes reallyclear because you can see is it
(22:47):
a structural issue? Is itcommunication issue? Is it ,
uh, you know, consistency offeedback issue. I think looking
at A to B, seeing where thegaps are makes it really clear
what you need to do over thatcourse of time to get you from
A to B. And so, you know,that's where I would start. I
(23:07):
think so many organizations orleaders jump into the middle of
just doing and, you know,executing on a plan to think of
ideas of how do we increaseretention or reduce turnover or
develop succession plans orhave more leaders that are
emotionally intelligent. Theyjust dive into the middle of
the action plan withoutthinking about where are we now
(23:30):
and where do we want to be?
Troy Blaser (23:31):
What are some, what are some ways to, to help
determine where are we now?
Michelle DiTondo (23:37):
I, you know, I tend to use collecting of
feedback or doing interviews.
And I think in organizations, Ithink there's more , um,
commonality than you wouldassume. If you ask people,
describe this workplace todayand describe where you would
like it to be three, five yearsfrom now, choose, you know, a
(23:58):
date, there's more commonalitythan you would assume. And, you
know, you could see that with ,with workplaces online , uh,
with online reviews. If youlook at a series, and I've done
this with organizations thatI've worked with to look at
their online reviews through,you know, LinkedIn or Glassdoor
or whatever. Uh , but there'scommonality in experience even
(24:22):
when people work acrossdivisions or in different
locations, look at what's mostcommon that, that would be your
here stage. Like, this is whatit's like to work here today.
And then I , you know, I thinkit's important for leaders
especially to buy in to wherewe want it to be, because
they're the ones that are gonnabe responsible for executing
(24:42):
how people are made to feel inthe organization, what's the
employee experience. And soleaders at least have to agree
this is what we want it to beand why. And, you know, you
could use employee feedback tohelp to paint the clarity of
the picture of both where youare and where you want to be.
But I think having those clearpictures, like a , a vision of
(25:07):
the future and a picture of thecurrent state i, I think is
critical before you jump intoaction planning.
Troy Blaser (25:13):
I really like that. I think too, having a
clear, a clear picture of wherewe are, a clear vision of where
we want to go for everyone inthe company who's not a leader,
that can provide clarity. Itcan provide motivation because
people like the feeling of, oh,my leaders, they've got
something in mind. They knowwhere they want to go it sounds
(25:34):
good to me. So I'm on boardwith it because they've,
they've figured that out andthey've communicated it
clearly, you know, down to mekind of in the trenches. So, so
I'm ready and willing to pitchin kind of.
Michelle DiTondo (25:45):
And you know, I , I think when we, when
organizations start to create,whether it's a vision statement
or purpose or whatever, there'scan be some risk of people
assuming there's some hypocrisyif you say, this is the type of
workplace we want to be withoutsaying we're not there yet, I
think you can gain a lot ofcredibility to say, this is who
we want to be, but we knowwe're not there yet, which is
(26:06):
why we're doing X, Y, and Z.
Versus, you know, having astatement that says teamwork
and collaboration andinclusion. And people are like,
where is that? Because that'snot the place that I work. So,
you know, understanding yourcurrent state I think gives you
an opportunity to be vulnerableand to say, this might be where
we are today, but this is wherewe want to be, why and how
(26:29):
we're going to do it. And I, I, again, I think being candid
and vulnerable, especially fromsenior leadership, there is
opportunity to gaincredibility.
Troy Blaser (26:39):
People appreciate that authenticity to say, you
know, we know where we're atand, and we know where we want
to go. And those two things aredifferent right now. Yeah, that
makes a lot of sense. Well,Michelle , this has been a
fascinating conversation. It'sbeen interesting to explore
these ideas with you. I wonderif people want to know more, if
they want to continue theconversation with you, is that
(26:59):
something you're open to? Howwould they connect with you?
Michelle DiTondo (27:02):
Absolutely.
And we also have our websiteand they can find out more
about our firm and some of mycolleagues. And they could also
(27:22):
connect with me through thewebsite as well. And LinkedIn.
I'm also on LinkedIn.
Troy Blaser (27:27):
Makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And we
can probably put the , uh, putthe website in the show notes
so people can go there if theyneed to. But thank you so much
for joining us today. Like Isaid, it's been fun to talk
through these ideas with youand explore some new ideas for
me. I've really enjoyed ourconversation.
Michelle DiTondo (27:44):
Thank you.
Thank you very much and have,have an awesome, awesome day.
You can't be a leader if nobody's willing to
follow you. So, you know, youhave to make a choice to either
change or to not be a veryeffective leader if the
feedback that you get is partof what's holding back your
team, reaching their fullpotential.
Troy Blaser (00:23):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to Simply Feedback thepodcast brought to you by
Learning Bridge . I'm yourhost, Troy Blaser. I'm happy to
have you along with us today. Iam excited about our guest on
today's episode. Let me justgive a quick introduction. Our
guest today is MichelleDiTondo, who is a visionary
leader in organizationaltransformation. Michelle is a
(00:46):
principal at Avion Consultingand a former CHRO of a Fortune
300 company with a remarkablehistory of leading a culture
and organizational shift for88,000 employees. Michelle
brings a profound understandingof how culture fortifies an
organization's brand andstrategy. Her dedication to
(01:06):
driving transformational changeand fostering inclusive
workplaces has made significantimpacts across various
industries. At AvionConsulting, Michelle and her
team of leadership developmentprofessionals are committed to
unlocking human potential,offering customized solutions
to enhance both people, andbusiness performance. Michelle,
(01:27):
welcome to Simply Feedbacktoday. It's so great to have
you with us for this episode.
Michelle DiTondo (01:31):
Thank you.
Thank you Troy for having metoday. Super excited to just
exchange some ideas.
Troy Blaser (01:36):
Yeah, well, I'm looking forward to it. You
know, I read through your biojust now to kind of introduce
you, but I wonder it wouldprobably help us all get to
know you a little bit better ifyou could share a time when
somebody gave you some feedbackand maybe some feedback that
had an impact on your life ormarked a turning point in your
career , something along thoselines.
Michelle DiTondo (01:55):
Sure. There's probably actually two at
different points in my career.
So I've told this story many,many times. Early on in my
career when I worked forAmerican Express in my mid to
late twenties, I had a womanwho I would consider to be
probably my first and mostimpactful mentor. She was the
head of HR for the group that Iworked in American Express, and
(02:18):
I was an HR generalist at thetime. She was a senior HR
leader and would frequentlysend me in her place to
meetings in New York City withall the other heads of HR and
the first time she did that,you know, I, it's a lot of
pressure, stress. I was gonnabe with these people who were
older than I was, who was moretenured than I was. And I think
(02:39):
she could sense that I waslacking in confidence and a
little tentative. And so, youknow, I always remember this
one sentence that she told mebecause she could see how
nervous I was and how muchpressure I was feeling, but she
said, I want you to keep inmind that everyone in that room
will have more experience thanyou. Which she said, no one in
(03:00):
the room is going to be smarterthan you. And I've always taken
that into situations whereimposter syndrome was kind of
entering my head and I feltlike I didn't deserve to be in
the room. That was one of, Ithink, the most impactful
pieces of feedback that I had .
I think later in my career, Ihad an executive coach when I
(03:22):
was the CHRO. At MGM, which Ibelieve in regular coaching
throughout a career. I thinkhaving external advice and
having candid feedback thatsomeone can collect for you is
always helpful. For growth anddevelopment. And I think you
have different responsibilitiesat each level. So an executive
coach, well into my tenure as aCHRO, and she'd done interviews
(03:46):
with my staff and with mycolleagues and with my
leadership. And you know, oneof the pieces of feedback that
she shared that I really wishwould've been earlier in my
career was that when I'm inconversations with others, that
that time was all about themand for them and not for me.
And I think before that, I'dalways thought of one-on-ones
(04:08):
as a time because we had tonsof things going on, and I had
pretty senior level HR peoplewho were leading big
initiatives. And so I alwaysthought of the one-on-one time
was a time for them to updateme on what was going on with
the projects that they wereleading. And I think that piece
of feedback shifted my thinkingto, you know, that time was a
time for me to talk about whatthey were really struggling
(04:30):
with and how I might be able tohelp them versus them reporting
out to me. And again, probablylater in my career than I
wished it would've been, but atleast I got that feedback. And
I , I think it was impactful inhow I thought about my role and
how I spent my time with thepeople that reported to me.
Troy Blaser (04:49):
I like that it , it makes me stop and think,
okay, how am I doing as I haveone-on-ones, you know, with the
people that, that I'msupervising, or even the
one-on-ones with the peoplethat I'm reporting up to. You
know, how am I spending thattime? What , what is the most
useful way to spend it? Sothat's important reminder. And
I also really liked your firststory because it makes me think
(05:12):
of, you know, the mentors thatI had early on in my own career
as well. I think for manypeople it's easy to sort of
look back and remember thatcertain manager or, you know,
that peer or whatever that washad a big influence early on.
Michelle DiTondo (05:27):
Yeah. I credit her for really being the
reason I was able to get to aCHRO role in my career, because
early on, she, and this, it wasjust not me. It was the many of
others who were on her team.
She stretched us to a point ofextreme discomfort. But I think
(05:48):
that we grew significantlyworking for her. And, you know,
and she was always there tohelp us and support us and have
our back, but really stretchedus. And, you know, I think
developmentally, like she puther own reputation on the line
by sending us in her place, butthen, you know, helped to
prepare us so that we would besuccessful.
Troy Blaser (06:09):
Yeah. Your two stories together sort of point
out the contrast in the kindsof feedback that we receive at
different stages of our careertoo. So obviously, I mean,
early in a career you'regetting feedback from a mentor.
You're, you know, you'relearning to have that
confidence and differentstrategies to be able to have
that confidence in the room.
(06:30):
And then later on when you're aCHRO, you're getting, you've
got an executive coach who'shelping to gather that feedback
because frankly, it can bechallenging to offer frank
feedback to someone in thatposition. Right. But it's, it's
so important.
Michelle DiTondo (06:48):
Absolutely.
Troy Blaser (06:48):
So you have to kind of think about it in a
different way than when you'rea brand new employee starting
out and there's managers allaround that are ready to offer
advice. Right.
Michelle DiTondo (06:57):
And we often, at Avion , we coach leaders who
are in their first, you know,one or two executive roles. And
I think the hard thing tounderstand is how much the
expectations of you change ateach level in the organization.
So, you know, my two stories atthe beginning was all about
have the confidence, give yourpoint of view and talk. And
(07:19):
towards the end of my career,it was ask questions and listen
more. And don't always be thefirst to talk and jump in. But
you know, as you become moresenior, you can impact others
much more significantly thanyou even realize because, you
know, for all, as you spendtime in your career, 20 years
can seem like two years. Andyou don't realize the impact
(07:42):
that you have on others whenyou're changing levels and
roles in an organization.
Troy Blaser (07:47):
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. The , it's interesting
you talk about the work thatyou do at Avion , and obviously
you have your own uniquebackground as you work at Avion
and you work with differentclients, different
organizations. Can you tell usabout a common kind of problem
that you help solve for yourclients?
Michelle DiTondo (08:07):
I mean, I , you know, we do a couple of
different things. We doleadership development, we do
coaching, we do culturetransformation, a variety of
different things that are allrelated to leadership and
employee engagement. I thinkthat leadership skills,
development of leadershipskills and how to do that is
common across all industries,all organizations. And, you
(08:31):
know, I think at all levels inthe organization, it's
something that as when I workedinternally as a CHRO, we always
struggled with in theorganizations I worked in, and,
you know, with our clients,this is the reason why we
exist, is to help leaders driveperformance in organizations.
It's all about how do we getthe most we can from those who
(08:55):
are on our teams, how can theybe their best selves and
deliver the best performanceday to day ? And inevitably the
way to do that gets down totheir leaders and how their
leaders behave and how t heirleaders support them to, to
deliver on performanceobjectives.
Troy Blaser (09:15):
It's funny, I was just thinking about this the
other day. I'll just share abrief story of my own. Growing
up in the eighties andnineties, I, like many young
men in those times, I was a boyscout and ended up going to
what they called juniorleadership training for a week,
where, you know, I was 14 yearsold and it was a week we were
(09:35):
camping up in the mountains. Welearned, I think, 12 specific
leadership skills as part ofthis Boy Scout camp. And I,
I've thought about that a lotover the years because I think
what I thought was how manypeople grow up and are never
taught leadership skills inparticular. You know, I went to
college, graduated in computerscience, but nowhere along the
(09:56):
way was, was I trained onhere's how to be a leader in
your field of computer science.
Right. It was all aboutprogramming and building
databases and, and software andthings like that. You talked
about how important it is theleaders are in an organization
and the skills that thoseleaders have. And maybe that's
easy to miss for someorganizations and for some
leaders to, to focusspecifically on the leadership
(10:19):
skills. And so it sounds likethat's something that you can
bring into an organization.
Michelle DiTondo (10:24):
I think, I think every organization or
leader would agree with theimportance of leadership. It's
kind of like that, you know,it's common sense, it makes
sense, but oftentimes isn'tcommon when you just get to
execution day to day . Um , youknow , uh, consistency in how
(10:44):
we lead people being able tomaintain a strategy or path
when we get into times ofstress. So I think everyone
believes it, it doesn't alwaysring true when we're in our
day-to-day, roles and , andperforming day-to-day.
Troy Blaser (11:05):
Yeah. So when you have an engagement with an
organization, and maybe it isto, to help with their
leadership skills to help theirleaders, what changes do you
get to observe in anorganization from, you know,
before the engagement starts,through the engagement to the
end of it? What , what are someof the things that you see the
, the solutions that you seethat come into play?
Michelle DiTondo (11:28):
You know, I , I think that we're pretty
customized in our approach. Ithink we have a standard
process that we follow mostfrequently. Typically with an
assessment of where you are nowand where you want to be, where
, whether that's individuallyas a leader or as a team or an
organization where you aretoday and where do you want to
(11:50):
be. And then, you know, onceyou kind of identify what that
gap is, the interventions orthe solutions to get you from A
to B can be different. So, youknow, it can be facilitation of
team dynamics, it can be someassessments that we use to give
feedback to leaders or somepersonality assessments. It can
(12:12):
be , uh, coaching just onesenior leader on how they
develop their team . So thesolutions might be different,
but I think, you know, we're ,we've seen and we have measured
success is when a leader has acoach and they have clarity
around where they are today,their strengths, development
areas, what they want toachieve from a business
(12:34):
strategy standpoint, you know,what's gonna hold them back and
stand in their way and what'sgonna help them get to point B.
Once they have clarity aroundthat, then if they're willing
to grow and to change, andregardless of the level and
their tenure and how longthey've been a leader, if
they're willing to reallyaccept feedback and to take
(12:57):
typically really small actions,then, you know, we see
significant change both in howthey're perceived as leaders,
as well as the results thattheir teams can deliver.
Troy Blaser (13:08):
Hmm . I like that.
So if I'm a leader in anorganization somewhere kind of
looking around, maybe I'mwondering to myself, do I need
some outside assistance? Orhow, how is my organization
doing with leadership ingeneral? Are there ways for
someone to know kind of where,where they're at and say, well,
that's not where I want to be.
(13:29):
What are some signs, I guess,that they ought to bring in
some help from outside?
Michelle DiTondo (13:34):
I mean, typically we, you know, people
connect with us if they have,and I , I don't necessarily
want to say a problem to solvebecause sometimes it's, we're
growing too fast, which isn'tnecessarily a problem. But how
do we maintain our values andour beliefs and our culture
while we grow? But typicallypeople will come to us because
they want to improveperformance. You know, that's
(13:56):
our firm's belief is how do weimprove performance in
organizations? How do we getorganizations to perform better
through people? And our clientscome to us because they either
know that they can do more orthey need to do more, or they
know that to maintain theircurrent performance levels,
they're gonna have to make sometype of change. So they come to
(14:17):
us because they recognize thatthey can perform better t han
they're currently performing today.
Troy Blaser (14:24):
Hmm . I , I liked what you said a minute ago. You
talked about if they're willingto change, then it's typically
just a few small adjustments.
Do you run into leaders whoaren't willing to change?
Michelle DiTondo (14:36):
Of course. I mean, you know, I think that
especially the more senior youget in the organization when
you've been rewarded for your,you know, being who you are ,
um, oftentimes in spite of whoyou are, but people don't get
to senior levels without beingsuccessful in achieving
regardless of how they did thatin an organization. And so, you
(14:57):
know, there's some reluctance,I think, especially the more
tenure you get in your careerand at certain levels we mostly
deal with executives. And soonce you get to a certain
level, recognizing that there'sa need for change can be hard.
And oftentimes , you know,people can become defensive
(15:18):
when they first hear feedback.
I , you know, I've been in thatposition if I've gotten really
tough feedback to try toexplain why that was or why
that person was giving thatfeedback. And, you know, we
hear all the same thingsprobably we've thought about in
our career, said we hear fromtheir common responses to
really constructive feedback.
(15:39):
And so, you know, there isresistance. It's much harder
because during the time ofengagement, you could spend
most of your time just tryingto get someone to recognize
that, you know, perception isreality. And, you know, I've
told people before I'm like,you can't be a leader if
nobody's willing to follow you.
So, you know, you have to makea choice to either change or to
(16:01):
not be a very effective leaderif the feedback that you get is
part of what's holding backyour team, reaching their full
potential.
Troy Blaser (16:10):
That makes sense.
So I've been at Learning Bridgefor a long time, over 20 years
now. What are some ways that Ican guard against that sort of
fixed mindset of, well, it'sworked so far, so I probably
don't need to change anythingright now. What are some ways
that I can be open to the ideathat maybe some change
isneeded?
Michelle DiTondo (16:29):
I mean, I'm, I'm a believer in, I've always
been a part of internally andorganizations are externally
just getting consistentfeedback on your performance,
which is why when I was in ac-level seat, I had a coach.
Why I believe that it ishelpful for people to have an
external coach inorganizations, just because I
(16:52):
think you could be more candidif someone is external with
what you're thinking and whatyou're struggling with. So
almost every organization thatI've worked into has had
feedback, either 360 feedbackfor leaders in roles as well as
organizational feedback throughemployee surveys. I think
having that as a regular partyof your process and having
(17:14):
leaders reflect on this is whatI'm hearing, what I'm willing
to do this year, I think helpsto develop that growth mindset.
If you're just in a continuouscycle of this time of the year,
we get feedback and then, youknow, next month I have to
think about what I'm gonna doto grow and develop. It's, I
think, much less likely thatyou'll be in a regular cycle of
(17:34):
defensiveness especially if youhear the same feedback over and
over .
Troy Blaser (17:38):
I like that. Well, talking about people receiving
feedback and the the timesyou've been able to engage with
a client, I wonder if there's aspecific experience or a time
when you have been able to seefeedback cause a point of
inflection in somebody's careeror in their life. Is there a
story there that you couldshare with us?
Michelle DiTondo (17:57):
I'll share a story that the leader that I
reported to at MGM, who's stilla friend of mine, who I greatly
respect, we were very closepartners, and I, I would say
almost opposites if you thinkabout any type of assessment
personality or thought process.
We were, his background was aCFO and I'd always been in HR,
(18:19):
but I think collectively wemade really good decisions
because we challenged eachother. He always told the story
and he's, he shared it manytimes publicly, so I don't feel
uncomfortable sharing it. Earlyon in his , um, in his CFO
career, so he was already in asenior level role, but not at
the corporate level. He was oneof our, the business unit, you
(18:41):
know, CFOs and brilliant whenit comes to operations and
detail, and was someone thatjust knows a lot about
everything. And I think reallyhelped to create structure and
make sure that the businessmade thorough, thoughtful
decisions. So what his feedbackwas around, though, was on how
he communicated with people,especially when he was under
(19:04):
stress. If he were under stressor if he was upset about
something, he tended to have areaction that frightened
people. I mean, he would raisehis voice, his anger would be
visible. And at the time, the,who would become our CEO and
our chairman was his, hisleader at the time and told him
(19:25):
they were, they were goodfriends and he was invested in
his career. And he told him, hesaid, this is gonna hold you
back. And he said, you will notmove forward in this company if
you aren't able to change, youknow, how you communicate and
how you make people feel. Andhe worked on it really
intently. And, you know, hegave permission to people like
(19:46):
me who were, you know, aroundhim regularly to let him know
if he, you know, fell off thewagon or if he had an impact on
someone that he didn't intendto. And, you know, when those
times did happen, he wouldapologize and take a step back
or apologize in public if hefound himself, you know,
(20:08):
starting to fall back on someof those old behaviors. But I
think his leader who took thetime to tell him that probably
was responsible for his career,and him becoming a chief
operating officer of, you know,fortune 300 company.
Troy Blaser (20:24):
Wow, that is a major change , uh, or a major
success for a small change.
Michelle DiTondo (20:30):
And it , you know, it stayed top of mind for
him. I think probably to thisday it's top of mind for him as
the one thing that he needs towork on and be aware of as a
leader. And he's veryself-aware and intentional
about it. And because oneleader took the time to say,
this is gonna stand in your wayof where you want to go if you
(20:52):
can't fix it. You know, typicalcase, and we see this all the
time in organizations, hightechnical performer that needed
to improve a leadership, youknow, interpersonal type of
skill and , you know, I thinkthe courage of a leader to say,
you know, you probably won'tmove ahead if you don't fix
this, even though you'rebrilliant technically, I think,
(21:14):
you know, had a huge impact onhis career.
Troy Blaser (21:17):
Interesting. An impact on his career, probably
also an impact on his personallife. Maybe we'll just, we'll
just talk about this question.
As you think about our audienceof HR professionals, others
kind of in the same realm thatyou are working in consulting
in. And you know, we're notasking you to give away your
secret sauce necessarily, butare there some things that you
(21:39):
could share with someone in asimilar situation as you?
Michelle DiTondo (21:42):
I, you know, throughout I think the course
of my career, especially in theCHRO role, and reinforced, I
think even more so as aconsultant, is as ambiguous as
leadership skills and cultureare, it's all a process to work
on improving it. So I havewhether I've been coaching
(22:04):
leaders, one-on-one orfacilitating a discussion
around improvement with a groupor, you know, a senior
leadership team or group ofleaders, is to become really
clear about where you are andwhere you want to be. Whether
it's where are you today andwhere do you want to be in
three or five years, what's thegap? And then thinking about
(22:27):
what do we need to do betweennow and then to close the gap
to get to where you want to be.
And I think when you have clearpictures of this is what's
happening today and what wewant it to be like, then I
think the path becomes reallyclear because you can see is it
(22:47):
a structural issue? Is itcommunication issue? Is it ,
uh, you know, consistency offeedback issue. I think looking
at A to B, seeing where thegaps are makes it really clear
what you need to do over thatcourse of time to get you from
A to B. And so, you know,that's where I would start. I
(23:07):
think so many organizations orleaders jump into the middle of
just doing and, you know,executing on a plan to think of
ideas of how do we increaseretention or reduce turnover or
develop succession plans orhave more leaders that are
emotionally intelligent. Theyjust dive into the middle of
the action plan withoutthinking about where are we now
(23:30):
and where do we want to be?
Troy Blaser (23:31):
What are some, what are some ways to, to help
determine where are we now?
Michelle DiTondo (23:37):
I, you know, I tend to use collecting of
feedback or doing interviews.
And I think in organizations, Ithink there's more , um,
commonality than you wouldassume. If you ask people,
describe this workplace todayand describe where you would
like it to be three, five yearsfrom now, choose, you know, a
(23:58):
date, there's more commonalitythan you would assume. And, you
know, you could see that with ,with workplaces online , uh,
with online reviews. If youlook at a series, and I've done
this with organizations thatI've worked with to look at
their online reviews through,you know, LinkedIn or Glassdoor
or whatever. Uh , but there'scommonality in experience even
(24:22):
when people work acrossdivisions or in different
locations, look at what's mostcommon that, that would be your
here stage. Like, this is whatit's like to work here today.
And then I , you know, I thinkit's important for leaders
especially to buy in to wherewe want it to be, because
they're the ones that are gonnabe responsible for executing
(24:42):
how people are made to feel inthe organization, what's the
employee experience. And soleaders at least have to agree
this is what we want it to beand why. And, you know, you
could use employee feedback tohelp to paint the clarity of
the picture of both where youare and where you want to be.
But I think having those clearpictures, like a , a vision of
(25:07):
the future and a picture of thecurrent state i, I think is
critical before you jump intoaction planning.
Troy Blaser (25:13):
I really like that. I think too, having a
clear, a clear picture of wherewe are, a clear vision of where
we want to go for everyone inthe company who's not a leader,
that can provide clarity. Itcan provide motivation because
people like the feeling of, oh,my leaders, they've got
something in mind. They knowwhere they want to go it sounds
(25:34):
good to me. So I'm on boardwith it because they've,
they've figured that out andthey've communicated it
clearly, you know, down to mekind of in the trenches. So, so
I'm ready and willing to pitchin kind of.
Michelle DiTondo (25:45):
And you know, I , I think when we, when
organizations start to create,whether it's a vision statement
or purpose or whatever, there'scan be some risk of people
assuming there's some hypocrisyif you say, this is the type of
workplace we want to be withoutsaying we're not there yet, I
think you can gain a lot ofcredibility to say, this is who
we want to be, but we knowwe're not there yet, which is
(26:06):
why we're doing X, Y, and Z.
Versus, you know, having astatement that says teamwork
and collaboration andinclusion. And people are like,
where is that? Because that'snot the place that I work. So,
you know, understanding yourcurrent state I think gives you
an opportunity to be vulnerableand to say, this might be where
we are today, but this is wherewe want to be, why and how
(26:29):
we're going to do it. And I, I, again, I think being candid
and vulnerable, especially fromsenior leadership, there is
opportunity to gaincredibility.
Troy Blaser (26:39):
People appreciate that authenticity to say, you
know, we know where we're atand, and we know where we want
to go. And those two things aredifferent right now. Yeah, that
makes a lot of sense. Well,Michelle , this has been a
fascinating conversation. It'sbeen interesting to explore
these ideas with you. I wonderif people want to know more, if
they want to continue theconversation with you, is that
(26:59):
something you're open to? Howwould they connect with you?
Michelle DiTondo (27:02):
Absolutely.
And we also have our websiteand they can find out more
about our firm and some of mycolleagues. And they could also
(27:22):
connect with me through thewebsite as well. And LinkedIn.
I'm also on LinkedIn.
Troy Blaser (27:27):
Makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And we
can probably put the , uh, putthe website in the show notes
so people can go there if theyneed to. But thank you so much
for joining us today. Like Isaid, it's been fun to talk
through these ideas with youand explore some new ideas for
me. I've really enjoyed ourconversation.
Michelle DiTondo (27:44):
Thank you.
Thank you very much and have,have an awesome, awesome day.
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