February 29, 2024 • 29 mins
Diane Hazum is an experienced leadership and executive coach with over twenty years of experience. She emphasizes the significance of understanding how one is perceived by others, the impact of feedback on career development, and insights into professional development.
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Episode Transcript
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Diane Hazum (00:01):
Is this how they want to be perceived? You're
being perceived as, let's gowith my, my two things that I
brought up. You're beingperceived as nosy, not direct.
You're being perceived asdisengaged, not a listener. Is
that how you want to beperceived? Not that I have
statistics, but I would saygenerally speaking, people will
say no. Who are yourstakeholders? Is that how you
(00:22):
want them to perceive you? Andthe answer's usually no. And
then we sort of go from there.
Troy Blaser (00:32):
Hello. Welcome to Simply Feedback, the podcast
brought to you by LearningBridge . And I am your host,
Troy Blazer . I'm excited tointroduce our guest today. Our
guest is Diane Hazum, who is aleadership and executive coach
with over 20 years ofexperience in the learning and
development space. Diane ,who's an ICF PCC certified
(00:55):
coach, specializes in executiveand management coaching across
diverse sectors, includingfinance, healthcare ,
telecommunications, andtechnology. Her focus is on
helping management andexecutives realize their
fullest potential within theirorganization. Diane is
dedicated to understanding thecomplexity of personal and
(01:16):
professional lives, and isdedicated to aiding
growth-minded individuals intheir journey of self-discovery
and development with abackground in leading
management development programsand a passion for emergent
leadership work-life balance,and team effectiveness. Diane
brings a wealth of knowledgeand insight into every
conversation and and into ourconversation today. Diane ,
(01:39):
welcome to Simply Feedback.
It's great to have you with us.
Diane Hazum (01:42):
Thank you so much.
It's very nice to be here. I'mhappy to be here.
Troy Blaser (01:46):
Maybe just to help our listeners get to know you,
I wonder if you could tell usabout a time when you received
some feedback in your life andmaybe it had a, you know, it
was a turning point in yourcareer or in your personal
life, but I wonder, do you havea story that you could share
with us?
Diane Hazum (02:01):
Oh, there's, there , there are a lot of stories. I
will say that in, in ouryounger times, when we hear
feedback, it's something thatreally hits home. It's, it's a
little bit painful. It'ssomething that we're like,
what? No, that's not me. Andyou have to kind of absorb it
and think about it. And therewere times when I've gotten
(02:22):
feedback when I, I, I don'tknow if I actually reflected on
it, but I reacted to itinternally. I mm-Hmm . I was
like , Mm-Hmm . This issomething that I did not know
about myself and I shouldreally pay attention to it.
And, you know, that kind offorms your, your future career.
You keep these things in mindgood and bad, and sometimes you
never forget them and sometimesyou don't remember too clearly,
(02:45):
but you , the interest that youhave and what was said is
something that you reflect on.
Older, you know, in laterphases of my career where I
already had a basic sense ofmyself, I was more inclined to
listen to feedback and reallyreflect on it and decide, is it
(03:07):
worthwhile for me to thinkabout this? Is it more than one
person? Was it a recency biascomment? Was it, you know,
what's the background here? Andsort of dig a little bit
deeper. So I did , I was toldat one point that I was very
direct, which can bemisconstrued. So the perception
(03:28):
of directness could bemisconstrued as being nosy. So
I made very good, I , I reallymade an effort, I should say,
to not appear nosy.
Troy Blaser (03:41):
Okay.
Diane Hazum (03:42):
To be more gentle with my being directness. I
mean, that's who I am. I'm notgoing to change. I know I'm
direct. Some people handle itwell and some people don't. So
just being aware of my audiencein , in that ability to be
direct. And the other piece offeedback that I had gotten was,
I'm a good listener, but again,that can be misconstrued. So I
(04:03):
was aware of being a goodlistener and made sure it
wasn't just, I'm disengaged. SoI was careful about what that
misperception could be, ifthat, if that makes any sense.
So with those two later piecesin my, later in my career, I'm
proud of those and I docultivate those, but I also
(04:26):
regulate them so that I'm notcoming off as nosy and
disengaged.
Troy Blaser (04:33):
Yeah, that's, that's a very interesting
contrast. I like the way youcompared earlier in our lives
as, as younger individualsearly in our careers, we're
eager to receive feedbackbecause it's still forming who
we are or how we work in ourcareer or interact with those
around us. And then as we gaina sense of really who we are,
(04:55):
and we've gathered thatfeedback and we, we sort of
establish our own identities,then as feedback comes in later
in our careers, like you said,it's a chance to be more
thoughtful about that feedback.
How does you know I'm going tohold this feedback? And how
does that compare with who Iknow I am? And you mentioned a
few different caveats as well,right? Is it just feedback from
one person that is maybe sayingmore about that person than it
(05:18):
is about me? Or a recency biasor things like that. So we can
be more thoughtful as we areolder and have a firmer sense
of our own identities and wereceive feedback.
Diane Hazum (05:30):
Exactly.
Troy Blaser (05:31):
Although I will say for me personally,
sometimes I want to be surethat I don't verge into, well,
I know who I am, so I'm notgoing to receive any feedback.
Become that sort of, thatgrouchy old man who's just set
in his ways and nothing isgoing to change . What I , I've
been doing it for 30 years andit's worked so far
Diane Hazum (05:57):
I think that when somebody says that, when
somebody says, I know thatabout me. And you don't see any
sort of growing or developingbased on them , no more
questioning, no nothing, nosubstantiating it, no
reflection. It's adisappointment because, you
know they're not going to, notthat they have to change, but
(06:18):
to adapt to other people. Ifsomebody said to me, oh my
gosh, you're so direct. It's,it's off-putting. I would be
working very hard at saying,oh, I don't want to put you
off. That's like, exactly whatI don't want to do, because
that's not going to, I'm notgoing to learn anything. You're
not going to talk to me anymore, et cetera . And so it , you
know you're right. It's thetype of thing where we really
(06:40):
hope that people reflect on it.
And I think when we're younger,we're more defensive and I'm
not sure that we give it the do. But as we grow, we get, it
sort of rolls into everything.
It rolls into all of ourfeedback and all of the things
about us, and we do think aboutit.
Troy Blaser (07:00):
Yeah. You mentioned, you, you run into
people who maybe feel likethey're set in their ways or
don't need to change. Whatadvice can you give to folks to
help them not get toocomfortable in who they think
they are and then ignore thefeedback? Are there things we
can do to kind of be aware ofthat?
Diane Hazum (07:18):
Hmm . It depends on how stubborn the person is,
as you said earlier. You know,I just want to, I just want to
be like this forever. I thinkwe go back to perception. Is
this how they want to beperceived? You're being
perceived as, let's go with my,my two things that I brought
up. You're being perceived asnosy, not direct. You're being
perceived as disengaged, not alistener. Is that how you want
(07:39):
to be perceived? Not that Ihave statistics, but I would
say generally speaking, peoplewill say no. Who are your
stakeholders? Is that how youwant them to perceive you? And
the answer's usually no. Andthen we sort of go from there.
Troy Blaser (07:53):
I like that. Well, you used the word change versus
adapt. And maybe in some cases,the idea of adapting, it can
turn the change into somethingthat's an advantage or
perceived as a strengthbecause, oh , I'm adapting to
what the world around me ischanging. My environment is
different today than it was 20or 30 years ago. And so I can
(08:15):
adapt to a new environment andit can become a strength
because it , it can besomething that I'm good at
adapting, you know? And soadapting can be the thing that
you've done for 30 years.
Adapting well to the, theenvironment around you. And so
if you're seeing it as astrength, now all o f a sudden
it's something that'sdesirable. Oh, I'm, I can work
(08:36):
on that and, you know, be surethat I stay aware of my
environment and adapt as neededto it.
Diane Hazum (08:43):
Yes. Yes.
Troy Blaser (08:45):
So you have had a long career as a coach, and I
wonder, can you tell us alittle bit about the types of
problems that you've found thatyou're uniquely able to solve
for your clients as youinteract with them?
Diane Hazum (08:58):
Well, as a coach, I really don't help . I don't
solve their problems, but I ammore apt to help them to
understand what it is they'retrying to do. The , and I will
say when it comes to feedback ,the interpretation of feedback,
the internalization offeedback, understanding what
(09:19):
the expectations are, all ofthese things are normal. And
happen often, if not every day.
And is the pretty much thetheme of what their careers
are. How are they reacting? Howare they getting this feedback?
(09:40):
How are they interpreting it?
How are they internalizing it?
All of those things reallymatter . So that's usually what
we're talking through. And it'susually the , it's, it's
normally the theme now. It'snot necessarily always about
them. It could be they'retrying to give feedback to
their teams, or they're tryingto give feedback to someone
(10:01):
they're working with or someonewho work whom they work for. It
depends on where, where they'refocused at the time. You know,
it's the , the recency idea isvery interesting because with
coaching, you know, you haveyour session and it's not
always about working on thatone thing that you're trying to
work on. The client will bringa different scenario, something
(10:25):
that just happened, orsomething that's just said or
something they need to say,their performance evaluations
are coming up, or they sawsomebody in the hallway and it
didn't go well, or they had ameeting and they feel bad. It
always comes back to, well,this is like, this is feedback,
so let's talk about how you arehandling this. What is it that
you wanted to see? What do youwant to be different? So it
(10:48):
always comes back to the samething. It's like this theme,
even though they bring aparticular incident to the
table. It's, it's, it'simportant to loop it back to
what they're working on. Andmost of that, most of the time
it's their own career, theirexecutive presence , their
ability to influence and impactother people and the way the
(11:10):
company's running.
Troy Blaser (11:12):
So do you find that this is a new insight to
them to start to think aboutthings in terms of feedback on
a daily basis?
Diane Hazum (11:20):
Yes. Yes. For sure. For sure. They will often
say, you know, somebody saidthat about me at one point, and
I never really gave it muchthought, but I know I can work
on that. When you saidsomething earlier that said the
a adapt versus change. If theyfeel that they can still wear
it, but they can alter it,that's so much less offensive
(11:44):
and so much easier and so muchless daunting than trying to
quote unquote change, becausefrankly, they're not really
going to change . They are whothey are. That's what's made
them successful thus far. Sohow can you spin that
differently? How can you wearit differently? How can you see
it and perceive it differently?
Troy Blaser (12:05):
Well, and I would say adapt also feels, kind of
like you said, I can stay who Iam, my core personality, but I
have some flexibility to adaptin different ways where change
as a word might sort of give methe idea that something's wrong
with me. That needs to bedifferent. That's the change as
opposed to adapting.
Diane Hazum (12:23):
Right. When people get feedback, they feel like
they're supposed to change.
Troy Blaser (12:27):
Yeah.
Diane Hazum (12:28):
When they get feedback from their manager or
from their peers or theircolleagues, and it says, you
know, whatever, you know, Janedoesn't share information Well,
for example Jane's like I dotoo. Jane's like in denial.
Yeah , of course she is .
Because she probably feels likeshe does. Well. Then you just
walk through what are theexpectations and how can you
(12:51):
alter that. So yes, you'reexactly right.
Troy Blaser (12:54):
Yeah. So as you engage with your clients, you
talk about feedback. What kindsof changes do you see in their
situations, in theirinterpersonal relationships at
work as a result of theengagement that you have with
them?
Diane Hazum (13:09):
I would think that they are more vulnerable.
They're more empathetic. Theywork on their empathy. They
realize things is not the wayeveryone else sees things. And
that's the general change. Theycan be more motivated,
hopefully. Sometimes it's alittle demotivating, but I try
(13:29):
to spin it into something thatcan motivate them, and
hopefully they'll have a growthmindset nine times out of 10,
somebody who's coming tocoaching anyway has a growth
mindset and is very interestedin growing. So it's not a big
leap for them to say, okay, I'mreally going to try and work on
this. And then we try to comeup with some ways they can work
on it. And ways that they canapply that adaptability that
(13:51):
they want to see in themselves.
Troy Blaser (13:53):
I guess it could be a little bit , uh,
demotivating though, that sortof, there's that initial wave
of, okay, I came, I'm , I'mworking with my coach. We have
this initial inflow ofinformation, and there may be a
sense of, oh, I guess I've beendoing it, or a feeling I've
been doing it wrong for a longtime. Right. And that could be
demotivating. And so you aresaying you can help them see,
(14:17):
okay, well here's the coursecorrection, here's the
adaptation, and we're going toget to these results. And that
can be , that's what themotivation is. But maybe it's
that initial information, the ,the feedback that can be
demotivating. Is that kind ofwhat you mean?
Diane Hazum (14:32):
Yeah. It, it , it can be demotivating. And I
think what I said earlier isthey have to understand that
it's their strength and it'swhat's gotten them thus far .
It's what's gotten them to thepoint they're at. And that's
great. And at some point itneeds to shift a little bit.
Not necessarily a lot, lot, butI say, you know, like , what
(14:52):
are your strengths? Let's talkabout what you're good at.
Okay. So you're really good atthese things. Here's a couple
of things that you couldpotentially grow around. Let's
think about what good thatwould do you, what do you think
that's going to change? And Ialso try to help them to
normalize feedback. Whensomeone is asked to give
feedback, sometimes they'rehunting. Like if I was asked to
(15:14):
give feedback to somebody, Imight think, oh my gosh, I have
good things to say about thisperson. Now I have to dig and
find some growth area that thisperson should have. And it's
not necessarily a huge growtharea, it's just something that
the person, like when a manageris asked to give feedback on
something, they give it or theydon't. But if they give it,
(15:35):
it's okay, I just got to getthis done, or I really want to
help this person to be morelike me. And so that the
feedback is, I want you to bemore salesy in your approach.
And that person's like, well,my role doesn't even require
salesy. I said, it's okay.
They're just reflecting. Andmaybe digging a little bit
deeper on that with thatindividual too, I often say is,
(15:58):
is a , is a good way to go withcertain information.
Troy Blaser (16:02):
Yeah. And you can kind of help them parse through
the feedback to say, okay,you've received this feedback,
how much does it apply to you?
What was the perception of thefeedback giver? If they're
hunting for something to say,just because they were asked
the question. That's , uh, animportant part of the process
is to understand the feedbackand, and how much it applies to
the adaptations, the changesthat you need to make.
Diane Hazum (16:24):
You know, so often I say, okay, let's review this
feedback. They'll share thefeedback, and I say , do you
believe this is true?
Troy Blaser (16:31):
That's a great question.
Diane Hazum (16:33):
And they might say, well, usually they'll say,
well , kind of maybe I say ,well, okay, let's talk about
what that actually means. Is itsomething that if you were
different, it would change howyou do work? Where is that
going to affect you? And thenwe walk through, okay, that ,
that feedback is going toaffect me when I meet with x,
(16:53):
y, z stakeholders or when Icome to the table and I have
nothing to say because I'mintimidated by who's at the
table. And Okay. So do you wantyour voice to be heard? Yes, I
do. Okay. Well, let's talkabout how that can happen.
Let's think of some way thatyou can make that happen. Yeah
. So yeah, it's important thatthey understand first if they
(17:14):
think it's true.
Troy Blaser (17:15):
That makes a lot of sense. In, in your
experience , coachingindividuals, can you share an
anecdote, a specific experiencewhen you've seen feedback?
Cause a point of inflection insomebody's career?
Diane Hazum (17:28):
Oh, that happens so often. Uh , okay. So yes,
there was an , uh, an executiveat Salesforce that he sort of
already knew this, but hediscovered that his approach
could be off-putting, becauseit was very blunt and sort of
snarky to a certain degree, butnot, they didn't use that word.
(17:50):
I'll use that word. It was sort, it was just blunt. And some
people didn't react well to it.
And of course he was, hadalready gotten pretty far in
his career. But he wanted thatVP title or the senior VP title
or whatever was he wanted. AndI said, okay, well, I want you
to start to think about thisand listen to your
conversations that you havewith people, and I want you to
(18:10):
tell me if you are actuallyseeing this. And when they did
see it, they will say, eventoday, I, it turned them
completely around. Theyrealized that they weren't
empathetic. They realized thatthey weren't listening to the
person near them that wastalking with them. And it made
a huge difference. And theyfeel like they've made this
(18:31):
adaptation now that they can beempathetic, be less, less
direct, be more of a listener,be more careful about how they
approach people. So thatperson, it made a big
difference and still does, Ihear about it almost all the
time.
Troy Blaser (18:50):
That , and it probably makes a big difference
for the people around that.
Executive, you know, ho holdon. What, what is this
interaction that we're gettingnow that's a little more
empathetic than it used to be?
Diane Hazum (19:01):
Yeah. Who is this person then that , you know,
it's like a complete stranger.
But they often do say too thatthey're working on this, this
is something they're workingon. They , they know about it
and they share that with their, their team or their
colleagues. They said this , soI have a coach and I'm working
on this, and I , you gave methis feedback because they got
it from their peers or theirmanager or their team, and I
(19:22):
really, this matters to me andI really want to be different.
And then they get thecooperation and sort of , uh,
the effort made by their teamand the people that they work
with to help them be somethingbetter than they thought they
were.
Troy Blaser (19:37):
So interesting the way you put that. We have kind
of a motto, I guess here atLearning Bridge or a tagline,
but we talk about receivefeedback graciously and act on
it visibly. And that's exactlylike what you just said. You
know, you tell the peoplearound you, this is what I'm
hearing and, and I'm working onit, and , and I'm going to try
to do these following things,you know? And that makes such a
(19:58):
huge difference because numberone, you get the support from
the people around you, butnumber two is if they know
you're working on it, it, ithelps them rewrite the
narrative that they have. Youknow, oh, Troy is snarky and
blunt all the time, but he justtold me he's trying to change
that, so maybe I can watch forthat change to happen.
Diane Hazum (20:18):
Right . And he doesn't mean that. So my
perception of him being snarkyand blunt, he didn't even know
that. And he doesn't think he'sthat way. And it's an
interesting phenomenon. You, wetalked earlier about the person
who would say, I'm never goingto change. I'm going to go down
with the ship acting like thisforever. Their perception will
never change . They, otherpeople's perception of them
will never change becausethey've decided they don't care
(20:39):
enough about anyone else'sopinion to be different .
Troy Blaser (20:43):
That's a good point .
Diane Hazum (20:44):
I'm not going to accomodate you. But when you do
share that you are working onsomething. People are much,
they're happy and they're moreaccommodating than they'll
share you feedback in themoment. Well, you know, you
said you weren't going to besnarky, but guess what I just
heard . You know, and, and thenthe person's like, oh, dang.
(21:06):
You know, I didn't mean to dothat.
Troy Blaser (21:08):
I'm curious, as you begin an interaction with,
with , um, an executive, whatare some ways that you
facilitate getting thisfeedback to kind of kick off
the process? Do you have somefavorite methods or approaches
that you like to use to help tostart to gather that
information?
Diane Hazum (21:24):
So yes. Usually they have some sort of tool
that they've used that they'llshare. If they don't, I will.
They may have had a tool in thepast, you know , disc or some
other thing that they've gottenthat's sort of given the some
idea about themselves. And if Idon't have any of that, I do a
perception exercise, which Ikind of alluded to throughout
(21:46):
this conversation. Basically,the steps of it are ask a
trusted colleague, ask somefriends, ask some people in
your life and your personallife how you are perceived. I
also want you to write down howyou perceive yourself. Let's
see if those things match. Andif they don't, where's the gap?
And what do you think aboutthat? And is that important to
(22:08):
you? Now, most of the timepeople have gotten some sort of
feedback from someone.
Troy Blaser (22:14):
It's already happened. Yeah.
Diane Hazum (22:16):
Yeah . Like, you are not a good listener or, you
know, whatever that piece offeedback is. And they say, I've
been told this in the past,I've been hearing it recently,
but again, I say, well, let'sverify this. Do you believe
this to be true? Go asksomebody else. Like, find out
if that's how other people areperceiving you so that you can
get a little bit moreinformation. I, I really like
(22:38):
them to be able to substantiatewhat they're thinking. So if
they just have a small piece, Iwas like, is that really true?
I don't, like, I'm not really,I want to know if that's true.
And in what context is thattrue? And why does it matter?
And is it going to help you ifyou change?
Troy Blaser (22:57):
Do you ever find yourself going down the wrong
track for a ways with a clientbefore it turns out that it
wasn't true? And you say ,okay, well let's back up and
let's find something else.
Diane Hazum (23:07):
Most of the time it's a piece of that. It's a
piece of that initial thing.
It's if they're not listening,if they're perceived as being
not a good listener, whatthey're really doing is in
their head, they'recategorizing what they're
hearing, they're going throughtheir Rolodex, they're coming
up with answers that they feellike they need to say. And we
(23:27):
say, well, okay, then let's dothings a little bit differently
. There's usually a piece, it ,it's never completely off track
. Although that
Troy Blaser (23:35):
That makes sense
Diane Hazum (23:35):
When people are in denial of feedback. That's
really the toughest part. Andeveryone's telling them they
are too focused on x, y, x, andyou see them being too focused
on x, y, x. And you say, well,how does that, you know, how's
that going for you,essentially? And they're , and
(23:56):
if they're in denial, they'regoing to go, it's going great.
So, I mean, there very few,that doesn't happen very often,
but sometimes it's just, okay,let's kind of steer this in a
different direction and findout really what it is you care
about. Tell me what it is youreally care about right now.
Troy Blaser (24:10):
For one thing, if they're in denial, then they're
maybe less likely to come andfind a coach in the first
place. Like you , I think yousaid it earlier, there needs to
be a certain level of opennessto change, even to take that
step of, okay, well I'm, I need, I would like a coach to help
me work through this feedback,or, or whatever it might be.
Well, you've shared a lot ofgreat advice, but as we think
(24:31):
about, you know, the listenersfor the podcast, HR
professionals or potentiallyexecutives who are being
coached, is there some, somespecific advice that you could
give to our listeners in thisarea? Something you've learned
that you would share pass alongto those maybe who are
following in your footsteps intheir careers?
Diane Hazum (24:49):
That's, that's a, that's a good question. I think
that being open, there's aperception that coaching is a
Socratic method. You could justask questions, ask questions,
ask questions. There's a placefor that. But I think it's more
important to have aconversation with the
(25:11):
individual. Listen for whatthey're saying, restate,
interpret what you think youmight have heard. Be bold in
some of your, your ownfeedback, for example, to get
them to think differently. Soit's not always this
questioning thing. I think Isaid , I think that there's a
place for that, but really,people come to a coach for
(25:33):
really, what should I do? Whatshould I do? And, and you're
not really going to give theman answer. You , you can say,
well, why , why do you feellike you need to do anything?
What's this disrupting? It'smore, instead of asking
questions to get more answersand more answers, ask questions
to listen for a piece ofsomething that you can talk
(25:53):
about.
Troy Blaser (25:54):
Okay. That makes sense. So, so don't be afraid
to bring in a , a little bitof, to inject some of your own
thinking and Yeah. Push back alittle bit. Uh , an a an easy
analogy, I think is to , uh,coach in a , you know, for a
sports team, the players, theathletes are looking to that
coach for some guidance. Theydon't want a coach who just
(26:18):
asks the players, you know,well, what play do you think we
should run this time? Give us alittle more please. And maybe
the same can be applicable aswell in a , in a personal
coaching relationship too.
Diane Hazum (26:29):
It is . I think that as a coach, you do want a
person to leave theconversation thinking about
something powerful, and itdoesn't have to be so powerful
that it's going to change theirlives, but something they've
never thought of before.
Troy Blaser (26:45):
Sure. That then maybe they'll come back to
thinking about the next day ora few times between the next
meeting that they have.
Diane Hazum (26:52):
Yes. And, and, and again, you've got to read your
client, you've got to read whatit is they want from you, and
how bold they want you to be.
And take it from there. Butnine times out of 10, they
don't want to, I've heard thismany times, I don't want a
coach who just ask me a bunchof questions.
Troy Blaser (27:08):
Yeah. I get that.
They're, they're like, what ?
You know , what am I payingfor?
Diane Hazum (27:12):
Yeah. Why am I calling you? For sure.
Absolutely.
Troy Blaser (27:17):
Well, Diane , I I really enjoyed our conversation
today, and I think ourlisteners will enjoy this as
well. If they want to know moreor if they want to continue the
conversation with you. Is thatsomething you'd be open to? Uh
, how can they, what's the bestway to get in touch?
Diane Hazum (27:32):
Through LinkedIn?
I think direct messagingthrough LinkedIn is the best.
Best way to get in touch withme. I'm on there all the time,
and I would be more than happyto talk with anyone about
anything really.
Troy Blaser (27:42):
Sure. Okay.
Fantastic. We'll include thatinformation in the show notes
as well, so that folks canfollow up if they, if something
they've heard today has struckthem and they want to continue
that conversation. Thank youfor joining us today. Like I
said, I've really enjoyed ourconversation. It's been a
pleasure to get to know you alittle bit, and I'm glad to
have you on.
Diane Hazum (28:02):
Thank you so much, Troy . It was a pleasure to be
here. It was a greatconversation. I really
appreciate it .
Is this how they want to be perceived? You're
being perceived as, let's gowith my, my two things that I
brought up. You're beingperceived as nosy, not direct.
You're being perceived asdisengaged, not a listener. Is
that how you want to beperceived? Not that I have
statistics, but I would saygenerally speaking, people will
say no. Who are yourstakeholders? Is that how you
(00:22):
want them to perceive you? Andthe answer's usually no. And
then we sort of go from there.
Troy Blaser (00:32):
Hello. Welcome to Simply Feedback, the podcast
brought to you by LearningBridge . And I am your host,
Troy Blazer . I'm excited tointroduce our guest today. Our
guest is Diane Hazum, who is aleadership and executive coach
with over 20 years ofexperience in the learning and
development space. Diane ,who's an ICF PCC certified
(00:55):
coach, specializes in executiveand management coaching across
diverse sectors, includingfinance, healthcare ,
telecommunications, andtechnology. Her focus is on
helping management andexecutives realize their
fullest potential within theirorganization. Diane is
dedicated to understanding thecomplexity of personal and
(01:16):
professional lives, and isdedicated to aiding
growth-minded individuals intheir journey of self-discovery
and development with abackground in leading
management development programsand a passion for emergent
leadership work-life balance,and team effectiveness. Diane
brings a wealth of knowledgeand insight into every
conversation and and into ourconversation today. Diane ,
(01:39):
welcome to Simply Feedback.
It's great to have you with us.
Diane Hazum (01:42):
Thank you so much.
It's very nice to be here. I'mhappy to be here.
Troy Blaser (01:46):
Maybe just to help our listeners get to know you,
I wonder if you could tell usabout a time when you received
some feedback in your life andmaybe it had a, you know, it
was a turning point in yourcareer or in your personal
life, but I wonder, do you havea story that you could share
with us?
Diane Hazum (02:01):
Oh, there's, there , there are a lot of stories. I
will say that in, in ouryounger times, when we hear
feedback, it's something thatreally hits home. It's, it's a
little bit painful. It'ssomething that we're like,
what? No, that's not me. Andyou have to kind of absorb it
and think about it. And therewere times when I've gotten
(02:22):
feedback when I, I, I don'tknow if I actually reflected on
it, but I reacted to itinternally. I mm-Hmm . I was
like , Mm-Hmm . This issomething that I did not know
about myself and I shouldreally pay attention to it.
And, you know, that kind offorms your, your future career.
You keep these things in mindgood and bad, and sometimes you
never forget them and sometimesyou don't remember too clearly,
(02:45):
but you , the interest that youhave and what was said is
something that you reflect on.
Older, you know, in laterphases of my career where I
already had a basic sense ofmyself, I was more inclined to
listen to feedback and reallyreflect on it and decide, is it
(03:07):
worthwhile for me to thinkabout this? Is it more than one
person? Was it a recency biascomment? Was it, you know,
what's the background here? Andsort of dig a little bit
deeper. So I did , I was toldat one point that I was very
direct, which can bemisconstrued. So the perception
(03:28):
of directness could bemisconstrued as being nosy. So
I made very good, I , I reallymade an effort, I should say,
to not appear nosy.
Troy Blaser (03:41):
Okay.
Diane Hazum (03:42):
To be more gentle with my being directness. I
mean, that's who I am. I'm notgoing to change. I know I'm
direct. Some people handle itwell and some people don't. So
just being aware of my audiencein , in that ability to be
direct. And the other piece offeedback that I had gotten was,
I'm a good listener, but again,that can be misconstrued. So I
(04:03):
was aware of being a goodlistener and made sure it
wasn't just, I'm disengaged. SoI was careful about what that
misperception could be, ifthat, if that makes any sense.
So with those two later piecesin my, later in my career, I'm
proud of those and I docultivate those, but I also
(04:26):
regulate them so that I'm notcoming off as nosy and
disengaged.
Troy Blaser (04:33):
Yeah, that's, that's a very interesting
contrast. I like the way youcompared earlier in our lives
as, as younger individualsearly in our careers, we're
eager to receive feedbackbecause it's still forming who
we are or how we work in ourcareer or interact with those
around us. And then as we gaina sense of really who we are,
(04:55):
and we've gathered thatfeedback and we, we sort of
establish our own identities,then as feedback comes in later
in our careers, like you said,it's a chance to be more
thoughtful about that feedback.
How does you know I'm going tohold this feedback? And how
does that compare with who Iknow I am? And you mentioned a
few different caveats as well,right? Is it just feedback from
one person that is maybe sayingmore about that person than it
(05:18):
is about me? Or a recency biasor things like that. So we can
be more thoughtful as we areolder and have a firmer sense
of our own identities and wereceive feedback.
Diane Hazum (05:30):
Exactly.
Troy Blaser (05:31):
Although I will say for me personally,
sometimes I want to be surethat I don't verge into, well,
I know who I am, so I'm notgoing to receive any feedback.
Become that sort of, thatgrouchy old man who's just set
in his ways and nothing isgoing to change . What I , I've
been doing it for 30 years andit's worked so far
Diane Hazum (05:57):
I think that when somebody says that, when
somebody says, I know thatabout me. And you don't see any
sort of growing or developingbased on them , no more
questioning, no nothing, nosubstantiating it, no
reflection. It's adisappointment because, you
know they're not going to, notthat they have to change, but
(06:18):
to adapt to other people. Ifsomebody said to me, oh my
gosh, you're so direct. It's,it's off-putting. I would be
working very hard at saying,oh, I don't want to put you
off. That's like, exactly whatI don't want to do, because
that's not going to, I'm notgoing to learn anything. You're
not going to talk to me anymore, et cetera . And so it , you
know you're right. It's thetype of thing where we really
(06:40):
hope that people reflect on it.
And I think when we're younger,we're more defensive and I'm
not sure that we give it the do. But as we grow, we get, it
sort of rolls into everything.
It rolls into all of ourfeedback and all of the things
about us, and we do think aboutit.
Troy Blaser (07:00):
Yeah. You mentioned, you, you run into
people who maybe feel likethey're set in their ways or
don't need to change. Whatadvice can you give to folks to
help them not get toocomfortable in who they think
they are and then ignore thefeedback? Are there things we
can do to kind of be aware ofthat?
Diane Hazum (07:18):
Hmm . It depends on how stubborn the person is,
as you said earlier. You know,I just want to, I just want to
be like this forever. I thinkwe go back to perception. Is
this how they want to beperceived? You're being
perceived as, let's go with my,my two things that I brought
up. You're being perceived asnosy, not direct. You're being
perceived as disengaged, not alistener. Is that how you want
(07:39):
to be perceived? Not that Ihave statistics, but I would
say generally speaking, peoplewill say no. Who are your
stakeholders? Is that how youwant them to perceive you? And
the answer's usually no. Andthen we sort of go from there.
Troy Blaser (07:53):
I like that. Well, you used the word change versus
adapt. And maybe in some cases,the idea of adapting, it can
turn the change into somethingthat's an advantage or
perceived as a strengthbecause, oh , I'm adapting to
what the world around me ischanging. My environment is
different today than it was 20or 30 years ago. And so I can
(08:15):
adapt to a new environment andit can become a strength
because it , it can besomething that I'm good at
adapting, you know? And soadapting can be the thing that
you've done for 30 years.
Adapting well to the, theenvironment around you. And so
if you're seeing it as astrength, now all o f a sudden
it's something that'sdesirable. Oh, I'm, I can work
(08:36):
on that and, you know, be surethat I stay aware of my
environment and adapt as neededto it.
Diane Hazum (08:43):
Yes. Yes.
Troy Blaser (08:45):
So you have had a long career as a coach, and I
wonder, can you tell us alittle bit about the types of
problems that you've found thatyou're uniquely able to solve
for your clients as youinteract with them?
Diane Hazum (08:58):
Well, as a coach, I really don't help . I don't
solve their problems, but I ammore apt to help them to
understand what it is they'retrying to do. The , and I will
say when it comes to feedback ,the interpretation of feedback,
the internalization offeedback, understanding what
(09:19):
the expectations are, all ofthese things are normal. And
happen often, if not every day.
And is the pretty much thetheme of what their careers
are. How are they reacting? Howare they getting this feedback?
(09:40):
How are they interpreting it?
How are they internalizing it?
All of those things reallymatter . So that's usually what
we're talking through. And it'susually the , it's, it's
normally the theme now. It'snot necessarily always about
them. It could be they'retrying to give feedback to
their teams, or they're tryingto give feedback to someone
(10:01):
they're working with or someonewho work whom they work for. It
depends on where, where they'refocused at the time. You know,
it's the , the recency idea isvery interesting because with
coaching, you know, you haveyour session and it's not
always about working on thatone thing that you're trying to
work on. The client will bringa different scenario, something
(10:25):
that just happened, orsomething that's just said or
something they need to say,their performance evaluations
are coming up, or they sawsomebody in the hallway and it
didn't go well, or they had ameeting and they feel bad. It
always comes back to, well,this is like, this is feedback,
so let's talk about how you arehandling this. What is it that
you wanted to see? What do youwant to be different? So it
(10:48):
always comes back to the samething. It's like this theme,
even though they bring aparticular incident to the
table. It's, it's, it'simportant to loop it back to
what they're working on. Andmost of that, most of the time
it's their own career, theirexecutive presence , their
ability to influence and impactother people and the way the
(11:10):
company's running.
Troy Blaser (11:12):
So do you find that this is a new insight to
them to start to think aboutthings in terms of feedback on
a daily basis?
Diane Hazum (11:20):
Yes. Yes. For sure. For sure. They will often
say, you know, somebody saidthat about me at one point, and
I never really gave it muchthought, but I know I can work
on that. When you saidsomething earlier that said the
a adapt versus change. If theyfeel that they can still wear
it, but they can alter it,that's so much less offensive
(11:44):
and so much easier and so muchless daunting than trying to
quote unquote change, becausefrankly, they're not really
going to change . They are whothey are. That's what's made
them successful thus far. Sohow can you spin that
differently? How can you wearit differently? How can you see
it and perceive it differently?
Troy Blaser (12:05):
Well, and I would say adapt also feels, kind of
like you said, I can stay who Iam, my core personality, but I
have some flexibility to adaptin different ways where change
as a word might sort of give methe idea that something's wrong
with me. That needs to bedifferent. That's the change as
opposed to adapting.
Diane Hazum (12:23):
Right. When people get feedback, they feel like
they're supposed to change.
Troy Blaser (12:27):
Yeah.
Diane Hazum (12:28):
When they get feedback from their manager or
from their peers or theircolleagues, and it says, you
know, whatever, you know, Janedoesn't share information Well,
for example Jane's like I dotoo. Jane's like in denial.
Yeah , of course she is .
Because she probably feels likeshe does. Well. Then you just
walk through what are theexpectations and how can you
(12:51):
alter that. So yes, you'reexactly right.
Troy Blaser (12:54):
Yeah. So as you engage with your clients, you
talk about feedback. What kindsof changes do you see in their
situations, in theirinterpersonal relationships at
work as a result of theengagement that you have with
them?
Diane Hazum (13:09):
I would think that they are more vulnerable.
They're more empathetic. Theywork on their empathy. They
realize things is not the wayeveryone else sees things. And
that's the general change. Theycan be more motivated,
hopefully. Sometimes it's alittle demotivating, but I try
(13:29):
to spin it into something thatcan motivate them, and
hopefully they'll have a growthmindset nine times out of 10,
somebody who's coming tocoaching anyway has a growth
mindset and is very interestedin growing. So it's not a big
leap for them to say, okay, I'mreally going to try and work on
this. And then we try to comeup with some ways they can work
on it. And ways that they canapply that adaptability that
(13:51):
they want to see in themselves.
Troy Blaser (13:53):
I guess it could be a little bit , uh,
demotivating though, that sortof, there's that initial wave
of, okay, I came, I'm , I'mworking with my coach. We have
this initial inflow ofinformation, and there may be a
sense of, oh, I guess I've beendoing it, or a feeling I've
been doing it wrong for a longtime. Right. And that could be
demotivating. And so you aresaying you can help them see,
(14:17):
okay, well here's the coursecorrection, here's the
adaptation, and we're going toget to these results. And that
can be , that's what themotivation is. But maybe it's
that initial information, the ,the feedback that can be
demotivating. Is that kind ofwhat you mean?
Diane Hazum (14:32):
Yeah. It, it , it can be demotivating. And I
think what I said earlier isthey have to understand that
it's their strength and it'swhat's gotten them thus far .
It's what's gotten them to thepoint they're at. And that's
great. And at some point itneeds to shift a little bit.
Not necessarily a lot, lot, butI say, you know, like , what
(14:52):
are your strengths? Let's talkabout what you're good at.
Okay. So you're really good atthese things. Here's a couple
of things that you couldpotentially grow around. Let's
think about what good thatwould do you, what do you think
that's going to change? And Ialso try to help them to
normalize feedback. Whensomeone is asked to give
feedback, sometimes they'rehunting. Like if I was asked to
(15:14):
give feedback to somebody, Imight think, oh my gosh, I have
good things to say about thisperson. Now I have to dig and
find some growth area that thisperson should have. And it's
not necessarily a huge growtharea, it's just something that
the person, like when a manageris asked to give feedback on
something, they give it or theydon't. But if they give it,
(15:35):
it's okay, I just got to getthis done, or I really want to
help this person to be morelike me. And so that the
feedback is, I want you to bemore salesy in your approach.
And that person's like, well,my role doesn't even require
salesy. I said, it's okay.
They're just reflecting. Andmaybe digging a little bit
deeper on that with thatindividual too, I often say is,
(15:58):
is a , is a good way to go withcertain information.
Troy Blaser (16:02):
Yeah. And you can kind of help them parse through
the feedback to say, okay,you've received this feedback,
how much does it apply to you?
What was the perception of thefeedback giver? If they're
hunting for something to say,just because they were asked
the question. That's , uh, animportant part of the process
is to understand the feedbackand, and how much it applies to
the adaptations, the changesthat you need to make.
Diane Hazum (16:24):
You know, so often I say, okay, let's review this
feedback. They'll share thefeedback, and I say , do you
believe this is true?
Troy Blaser (16:31):
That's a great question.
Diane Hazum (16:33):
And they might say, well, usually they'll say,
well , kind of maybe I say ,well, okay, let's talk about
what that actually means. Is itsomething that if you were
different, it would change howyou do work? Where is that
going to affect you? And thenwe walk through, okay, that ,
that feedback is going toaffect me when I meet with x,
(16:53):
y, z stakeholders or when Icome to the table and I have
nothing to say because I'mintimidated by who's at the
table. And Okay. So do you wantyour voice to be heard? Yes, I
do. Okay. Well, let's talkabout how that can happen.
Let's think of some way thatyou can make that happen. Yeah
. So yeah, it's important thatthey understand first if they
(17:14):
think it's true.
Troy Blaser (17:15):
That makes a lot of sense. In, in your
experience , coachingindividuals, can you share an
anecdote, a specific experiencewhen you've seen feedback?
Cause a point of inflection insomebody's career?
Diane Hazum (17:28):
Oh, that happens so often. Uh , okay. So yes,
there was an , uh, an executiveat Salesforce that he sort of
already knew this, but hediscovered that his approach
could be off-putting, becauseit was very blunt and sort of
snarky to a certain degree, butnot, they didn't use that word.
(17:50):
I'll use that word. It was sort, it was just blunt. And some
people didn't react well to it.
And of course he was, hadalready gotten pretty far in
his career. But he wanted thatVP title or the senior VP title
or whatever was he wanted. AndI said, okay, well, I want you
to start to think about thisand listen to your
conversations that you havewith people, and I want you to
(18:10):
tell me if you are actuallyseeing this. And when they did
see it, they will say, eventoday, I, it turned them
completely around. Theyrealized that they weren't
empathetic. They realized thatthey weren't listening to the
person near them that wastalking with them. And it made
a huge difference. And theyfeel like they've made this
(18:31):
adaptation now that they can beempathetic, be less, less
direct, be more of a listener,be more careful about how they
approach people. So thatperson, it made a big
difference and still does, Ihear about it almost all the
time.
Troy Blaser (18:50):
That , and it probably makes a big difference
for the people around that.
Executive, you know, ho holdon. What, what is this
interaction that we're gettingnow that's a little more
empathetic than it used to be?
Diane Hazum (19:01):
Yeah. Who is this person then that , you know,
it's like a complete stranger.
But they often do say too thatthey're working on this, this
is something they're workingon. They , they know about it
and they share that with their, their team or their
colleagues. They said this , soI have a coach and I'm working
on this, and I , you gave methis feedback because they got
it from their peers or theirmanager or their team, and I
(19:22):
really, this matters to me andI really want to be different.
And then they get thecooperation and sort of , uh,
the effort made by their teamand the people that they work
with to help them be somethingbetter than they thought they
were.
Troy Blaser (19:37):
So interesting the way you put that. We have kind
of a motto, I guess here atLearning Bridge or a tagline,
but we talk about receivefeedback graciously and act on
it visibly. And that's exactlylike what you just said. You
know, you tell the peoplearound you, this is what I'm
hearing and, and I'm working onit, and , and I'm going to try
to do these following things,you know? And that makes such a
(19:58):
huge difference because numberone, you get the support from
the people around you, butnumber two is if they know
you're working on it, it, ithelps them rewrite the
narrative that they have. Youknow, oh, Troy is snarky and
blunt all the time, but he justtold me he's trying to change
that, so maybe I can watch forthat change to happen.
Diane Hazum (20:18):
Right . And he doesn't mean that. So my
perception of him being snarkyand blunt, he didn't even know
that. And he doesn't think he'sthat way. And it's an
interesting phenomenon. You, wetalked earlier about the person
who would say, I'm never goingto change. I'm going to go down
with the ship acting like thisforever. Their perception will
never change . They, otherpeople's perception of them
will never change becausethey've decided they don't care
(20:39):
enough about anyone else'sopinion to be different .
Troy Blaser (20:43):
That's a good point .
Diane Hazum (20:44):
I'm not going to accomodate you. But when you do
share that you are working onsomething. People are much,
they're happy and they're moreaccommodating than they'll
share you feedback in themoment. Well, you know, you
said you weren't going to besnarky, but guess what I just
heard . You know, and, and thenthe person's like, oh, dang.
(21:06):
You know, I didn't mean to dothat.
Troy Blaser (21:08):
I'm curious, as you begin an interaction with,
with , um, an executive, whatare some ways that you
facilitate getting thisfeedback to kind of kick off
the process? Do you have somefavorite methods or approaches
that you like to use to help tostart to gather that
information?
Diane Hazum (21:24):
So yes. Usually they have some sort of tool
that they've used that they'llshare. If they don't, I will.
They may have had a tool in thepast, you know , disc or some
other thing that they've gottenthat's sort of given the some
idea about themselves. And if Idon't have any of that, I do a
perception exercise, which Ikind of alluded to throughout
(21:46):
this conversation. Basically,the steps of it are ask a
trusted colleague, ask somefriends, ask some people in
your life and your personallife how you are perceived. I
also want you to write down howyou perceive yourself. Let's
see if those things match. Andif they don't, where's the gap?
And what do you think aboutthat? And is that important to
(22:08):
you? Now, most of the timepeople have gotten some sort of
feedback from someone.
Troy Blaser (22:14):
It's already happened. Yeah.
Diane Hazum (22:16):
Yeah . Like, you are not a good listener or, you
know, whatever that piece offeedback is. And they say, I've
been told this in the past,I've been hearing it recently,
but again, I say, well, let'sverify this. Do you believe
this to be true? Go asksomebody else. Like, find out
if that's how other people areperceiving you so that you can
get a little bit moreinformation. I, I really like
(22:38):
them to be able to substantiatewhat they're thinking. So if
they just have a small piece, Iwas like, is that really true?
I don't, like, I'm not really,I want to know if that's true.
And in what context is thattrue? And why does it matter?
And is it going to help you ifyou change?
Troy Blaser (22:57):
Do you ever find yourself going down the wrong
track for a ways with a clientbefore it turns out that it
wasn't true? And you say ,okay, well let's back up and
let's find something else.
Diane Hazum (23:07):
Most of the time it's a piece of that. It's a
piece of that initial thing.
It's if they're not listening,if they're perceived as being
not a good listener, whatthey're really doing is in
their head, they'recategorizing what they're
hearing, they're going throughtheir Rolodex, they're coming
up with answers that they feellike they need to say. And we
(23:27):
say, well, okay, then let's dothings a little bit differently
. There's usually a piece, it ,it's never completely off track
. Although that
Troy Blaser (23:35):
That makes sense
Diane Hazum (23:35):
When people are in denial of feedback. That's
really the toughest part. Andeveryone's telling them they
are too focused on x, y, x, andyou see them being too focused
on x, y, x. And you say, well,how does that, you know, how's
that going for you,essentially? And they're , and
(23:56):
if they're in denial, they'regoing to go, it's going great.
So, I mean, there very few,that doesn't happen very often,
but sometimes it's just, okay,let's kind of steer this in a
different direction and findout really what it is you care
about. Tell me what it is youreally care about right now.
Troy Blaser (24:10):
For one thing, if they're in denial, then they're
maybe less likely to come andfind a coach in the first
place. Like you , I think yousaid it earlier, there needs to
be a certain level of opennessto change, even to take that
step of, okay, well I'm, I need, I would like a coach to help
me work through this feedback,or, or whatever it might be.
Well, you've shared a lot ofgreat advice, but as we think
(24:31):
about, you know, the listenersfor the podcast, HR
professionals or potentiallyexecutives who are being
coached, is there some, somespecific advice that you could
give to our listeners in thisarea? Something you've learned
that you would share pass alongto those maybe who are
following in your footsteps intheir careers?
Diane Hazum (24:49):
That's, that's a, that's a good question. I think
that being open, there's aperception that coaching is a
Socratic method. You could justask questions, ask questions,
ask questions. There's a placefor that. But I think it's more
important to have aconversation with the
(25:11):
individual. Listen for whatthey're saying, restate,
interpret what you think youmight have heard. Be bold in
some of your, your ownfeedback, for example, to get
them to think differently. Soit's not always this
questioning thing. I think Isaid , I think that there's a
place for that, but really,people come to a coach for
(25:33):
really, what should I do? Whatshould I do? And, and you're
not really going to give theman answer. You , you can say,
well, why , why do you feellike you need to do anything?
What's this disrupting? It'smore, instead of asking
questions to get more answersand more answers, ask questions
to listen for a piece ofsomething that you can talk
(25:53):
about.
Troy Blaser (25:54):
Okay. That makes sense. So, so don't be afraid
to bring in a , a little bitof, to inject some of your own
thinking and Yeah. Push back alittle bit. Uh , an a an easy
analogy, I think is to , uh,coach in a , you know, for a
sports team, the players, theathletes are looking to that
coach for some guidance. Theydon't want a coach who just
(26:18):
asks the players, you know,well, what play do you think we
should run this time? Give us alittle more please. And maybe
the same can be applicable aswell in a , in a personal
coaching relationship too.
Diane Hazum (26:29):
It is . I think that as a coach, you do want a
person to leave theconversation thinking about
something powerful, and itdoesn't have to be so powerful
that it's going to change theirlives, but something they've
never thought of before.
Troy Blaser (26:45):
Sure. That then maybe they'll come back to
thinking about the next day ora few times between the next
meeting that they have.
Diane Hazum (26:52):
Yes. And, and, and again, you've got to read your
client, you've got to read whatit is they want from you, and
how bold they want you to be.
And take it from there. Butnine times out of 10, they
don't want to, I've heard thismany times, I don't want a
coach who just ask me a bunchof questions.
Troy Blaser (27:08):
Yeah. I get that.
They're, they're like, what ?
You know , what am I payingfor?
Diane Hazum (27:12):
Yeah. Why am I calling you? For sure.
Absolutely.
Troy Blaser (27:17):
Well, Diane , I I really enjoyed our conversation
today, and I think ourlisteners will enjoy this as
well. If they want to know moreor if they want to continue the
conversation with you. Is thatsomething you'd be open to? Uh
, how can they, what's the bestway to get in touch?
Diane Hazum (27:32):
Through LinkedIn?
I think direct messagingthrough LinkedIn is the best.
Best way to get in touch withme. I'm on there all the time,
and I would be more than happyto talk with anyone about
anything really.
Troy Blaser (27:42):
Sure. Okay.
Fantastic. We'll include thatinformation in the show notes
as well, so that folks canfollow up if they, if something
they've heard today has struckthem and they want to continue
that conversation. Thank youfor joining us today. Like I
said, I've really enjoyed ourconversation. It's been a
pleasure to get to know you alittle bit, and I'm glad to
have you on.
Diane Hazum (28:02):
Thank you so much, Troy . It was a pleasure to be
here. It was a greatconversation. I really
appreciate it .
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