May 7, 2024 • 32 mins
Dr. Michelle Thackray discusses the significance of feedback within organizational structures and building a leadership development program. She shares insights from her career journey, emphasizing the pivotal role feedback played in redirecting her career path and guiding her towards leading transformative initiatives. Highlighting the importance of co-creation and pilot programs, she discusses her efforts at Rice University to implement a leadership development program aimed at fostering a culture of feedback and continuous improvement. The conversation underscores the value of feedback in guiding individuals through career transitions, driving organizational success, and nurturing a culture of growth and excellence.
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Episode Transcript
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Michelle Thackray (00:00):
It really is the responsibility of the
organization to create anenvironment where they have
embedded in their structuresand their processes, these
continual opportunities forfeedback loops. And not only
that, they, they create thoseopportunities, but then that
the folks who are receivingthat information are actually
utilizing it and then providinginformation to the sender of
(00:22):
the feedback that they haveleveraged it, and that they
have taken advantage of it. Andso there are so many easy ways
that you can do that anytimethat you have a business
process really so easy to getsome quick information out
there for people to be able todo pulse check , to let you
know what's going well, whatcould be better, what are some
of the pain points I'mexperiencing. And I think when
you're focusing it too on theprocess, rather than the person
(00:45):
from an organizationalstandpoint that's sending a
clear message that like, wewant to be better, we want to
keep working and fine tuningthese things, and focusing
first on process. When you'retrying to build and lean into
that culture aroundpsychological safety and
providing feedback toindividuals about their
performance, that can be areally good way to kind of
softly start to lean into it.
Troy Blaser (01:11):
Hello, welcome to Simply Feedback the podcast
brought to you by LearningBridge . I'm your host, Troy
Blaser. I'm really excitedabout our conversation today
and for the chance to introduceour guest, Dr. Michelle
Thackray. Currently, Michelleis the Associate Vice President
of Operational Excellence andEngagement at Rice University.
(01:33):
And previously she was directorof strategy and assessment at
Georgia Tech. Michelle has ledtransformative initiatives and
fostered a culture ofcontinuous improvement at all
the places where she has workedwith a PhD in industrial and
organizational psychology.
Michelle's professional journeyis marked by significant
(01:53):
contributions to operationalstrategy and human resources.
She's also a certified changemanagement practitioner. So I'm
excited for our conversationtoday. We can start to learn
about some of Michelle's plansfor a new leadership
development program that she'sworking on. So, Michelle
Thackray , welcome to SimplyFeedback. It's great to have
you with us today.
Michelle Thackray (02:14):
Troy, thank you so much. I'm , I'm really
excited to dive in.
Troy Blaser (02:17):
Maybe just to help us get to know you a little bit
better, I wonder if you couldtell us about a time that
somebody gave you feedback,maybe it was feedback that
marked a turning point in yourcareer, or it had a significant
impact on your life. Is there astory that you could share with
us?
Michelle Thackray (02:32):
Yeah, that's, that's a great
question. I've been reallyfortunate throughout both my
academic and professionalcareer to have some really
great mentors who've beenreally generous with their time
and their energy and havereceived quite a bit of
feedback along the way. One ofthose is actually from my
undergraduate program. I wentto Coastal Carolina University
(02:52):
where my advisor was Dr. LindaPalm in the psychology
department. And I took, took acouple of classes with her
early on and it was in themidst of the statistics class,
the first level of the statsclass, which I was actually
really nervous about. I'venever been that strong in math
that's always been an area ofweakness for me. And I had a
(03:15):
lot of anxiety about the class. And after I would say maybe
like a month, a month and ahalf, I started to interact
more and more with Dr. Palm.
And I had explained to her mymathematical anxiety and how it
hasn't really been comingthrough so much in stats. And
that stats really unlocked anew way of thinking about
(03:37):
numbers for me. And over timewe started doing some research
together and she had sharedthat you actually have this
really great aptitude forstatistics and I know that
you're thinking about goinginto forensic psychology and,
and that's great and definitelyencourage you to continue doing
that. But I think that youshould look into this field
(03:59):
called industrialorganizational psychology, this
budding area within thepsychology field. And it has a
really bright outlook from acareer standpoint. And those
who do well with statisticstend to fare really well , uh,
in that particular type ofprogram and , and field of
study. So I started doing somedigging into it and I really
(04:20):
liked what I was reading andended up starting to take some
business classes then as aresult, to try to start
preparing me for kind ofswitching trajectories in terms
of my career and ended up onlyapplying to graduate programs
within io. And it reallyshifted the entire roadmap of
(04:41):
my career from a very simplebit of feedback where somebody
recognized something in me thatmaybe I didn't quite recognize
in myself and used theirexpertise to give me this
moment of reflection and thisopportunity to do some digging
and soul searching . And I amforever grateful for Dr. Palm,
both from just her generaladvisement, but also for really
(05:04):
setting up my career in a waythat I, I would not have
anticipated prior to stumblinginto her class.
Troy Blaser (05:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, talk about a turningpoint in a career, right? A a
whole entirely different roadthat Right . That she put you
on. That's, that's fantastic.
And I would imagine thatindustrial and organizational
psychology is not somethingthat maybe you had ever heard
about before coming to college.
You, you don't hear that, youknow, as a child and think,
that's what I want to go into.
Michelle Thackray (05:31):
That's right. That's absolutely right.
And even, you know, in mostundergraduate psych programs,
at least at the time, it mightbe a bit different now since
it's a more popular field, buteven then you couldn't even
really take like aconcentration course in it like
you could with some of theother psych areas. So I think
that really without thatguidance and that mentorship
and that feedback, the doors tothat world would've never been
(05:53):
opened for me. It was a reallyrare instance of feedback that
has stuck with me for all theseyears.
Troy Blaser (06:00):
And you've continued in your career so
far, continuing to work withuniversities, with Georgia
Tech, with Rice University. Soyou're still now able to have
an influence on some of thoseundergraduates, maybe in an
indirect way who are making allthose kinds of same career
choices. That's fantastic.
Michelle Thackray (06:16):
Yeah, that's right. And what's really cool
too is even though I'm on theadministrative side of higher
education, we often try todevelop robust intern programs
so that we can plug studentsinto really meaningful
experiences where, you know, alittle bit different and give
them an opportunity to see whata career might be like in HR or
(06:38):
in finance or in IT. So we tryto cultivate those experiences
for our students to have thisadditional benefit on their
resume when they go out intothe real world, quote on quote.
But yeah, it's , it's the bestpart I think about higher
education is you get to havethese great interactions with
these incredibly brilliantstudents. I always say that
(06:59):
like nothing ever makes me feelas much of a loser as I do when
I'm sitting there interviewingstudents for these intern
programs 'cause they're soaccomplished. And I'm like,
man, I was not doing that atthis age, but good for y'all.
Troy Blaser (07:09):
Well, and then you start to realize bit by bit
that you're no longer that sameage either, right?
Michelle Thackray (07:14):
That's right. Yeah . That's another
harsh reality.
Troy Blaser (07:17):
Cool factor that slowly ebbs away the farther
you get from being anundergraduate
Michelle Thackray (07:21):
That's right.
Troy Blaser (07:23):
Well, it's interesting because it , I have
a daughter who's graduatingfrom Utah Valley University
here in a couple of weeks.
Michelle Thackray (07:29):
Oh, congratulations.
Troy Blaser (07:31):
Oh, thanks. We're really excited. But she talks
about her mentor, she'sgraduating in humanities and
had a, a professor that was amentor to her over the last
couple of years. And I know herby her first name. And just
from hearing my daughter talkabout this mentor. So there's
no question that those kinds ofpeople really matter and make a
(07:51):
big difference in the lives ofthe people that they are able
to mentor. That's fantastic.
Michelle Thackray (07:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
Troy Blaser (07:57):
So you're now working at Rice University and
I understand that you'reworking on a project creating a
new leadership developmentprogram that you've submitted
for funding. And I'd love tohear more about that. Can you
tell us a little bit about thatcoming into Rice? Did you take
the job with that in mind? Isit something that is new since
you arrived? Or just give ussome details there.
Michelle Thackray (08:20):
Yeah, so Rice is this fantastic place to
be and I am so fortunate tohave stumbled into it when it's
at this really interestingmoment in time. So we've got
brand new leadership across theentire university really, and
with that there's a lot of newenergy and exciting ideas. What
(08:41):
we're trying to really focus onwithin the division that I work
in is this concept of acultural transformation. So we
actually just published ourstrategic plan within the last
month and a half or so, andthat strategic plan has
outlined some critical goalsand objectives that we're
really trying to accomplishover the next five years. And
(09:02):
it's really rooted around theseconcepts of operational
excellence, customerexperience, and community of
care. And I think there's thisreally interesting notion about
wanting to develop the talentthat we have internally at all
levels. And one of the areasthat I have been focusing on
(09:24):
over the last year or so hasreally been in the leadership
space. It's an area that I'mfamiliar with and I've got some
experience with, and it's anarea that I have a lot of
passion in. And we just came upon our budget cycle. And what I
like to do within my unit isreally to pitch ideas that we
can foster as these pilotprograms essentially. And we
(09:45):
can create these programs, wecan build them up, pilot them
very quickly, try to uncoversome of the obstacles in order
to streamline them , make themmore efficient, and then
ideally collaborate with othersacross the university so that
we can then transition thoseprograms to another department
and then we can continue to gothrough and pilot other
(10:06):
programs. And so that's kind ofwhere I'm heading with this
leadership development programthat I would really like to
start to foster this conceptabout leadership feedback,
really getting folks used tothis concept that feedback is
an asset and we should betreating it as such. And we
should be, you know, reallyleaning into these
(10:29):
opportunities when we can getfeedback from those around us
from all different spheres ofinfluence. And that's really
what this program is about. Sothe idea being to formalize a
competency model for Rce, andthen to develop a 360
leadership assessment throughthose competencies and get a
(10:50):
systematic program in place sothat we can cycle through our
leaders at various intervals.
They can receive this feedback,hopefully align it with that
feedback with strategy foreither their individual units
or perhaps even theirdivisions. And then start to
really build that culturearound openness to feedback,
receptivity to feedback thatgood psychological trust that
(11:12):
we know is necessary in orderto create a successful program
of that nature. And so that'sreally where what I've just
proposed recently and where I'mhoping to kick off this program
.
Troy Blaser (11:23):
Yeah. Depending on the current culture, it can be
a challenge to create thisculture of feedback. Are there
things that you're doing to tryto begin to make that change or
move towards that idea ofvaluing feedback in the
organization?
Michelle Thackray (11:37):
Yeah, I think there are a couple of
different things that you canreally do in order to create
that type of environment, but Ithink that where organizations
should really spend theirenergy is building trust and
connections between those in aless formal setting where you
are not throwing them into ,you know, immediately doing
(12:01):
some feedback sessions. And sothat's really where we've been
focusing some of our engagementactivities around. So we're
wanting to break down any silosthat might exist, whether
intentionally or not. I thinkthat one of the things that we
observe all the time is thatpeople get so busy that it's so
easy to kind of put yourblinders on and focus on the
(12:21):
task at hand rather thanthinking that you really are
part of this larger structure,this larger ecosystem, and that
in order to make things happensuccessfully, you need to
really be co collaborative. Andso one of the things that we're
trying to do this year is tohost periodic networking events
for various leadership levelsthroughout the organization. It
(12:44):
gives folks some opportunitiesto come together to have a meal
, perhaps have some icebreakerquestions to go through. And we
really are intentional aboutensuring that when folks are
engaging, that they are notsitting with just their team
members, that they're actuallysitting at a table with folks
who work across the, eitherentire division or across the
(13:05):
university, so that they canstart to get that better
connection and build thoserelationships. I think as bad
as Covid was for so manyreasons, one of the best things
that really shook out of it isthat folks in these larger
organizations perhaps had topull together in a way that
they never have before. Andcertainly when we were starting
(13:27):
to come out of the response andrecovery phase, one of the
things that I heard from a lotof my colleagues was, this was
so great for understanding whowithin the university I can
call on when I have certainproblems And it's no longer
just this org chart on thewebsite. I now have the faces
(13:48):
and the names of those who Ineed to rely on. I don't need
to wait for a crisis to unfoldin order for me to have those
connections. Now I can reachout more regularly and, and
continue to invest in thoserelationships. And I do think
that that's so important forpeople to be able to feel
comfortable leaning into thehonest and difficult
conversations is that you havethat connectivity, you have
(14:11):
that relationship, and you'vealready established that trust
so that you can understandwhere someone's coming from and
you can have hopefully the bestof intentions.
Troy Blaser (14:23):
Absolutely. I mean, if the trust isn't there,
folks just aren't going tolisten to the feedback they
might have suspicions about,well what are the motivations
for this person giving me thisparticular feedback? But if the
trust has been developed aheadof time, then they're in a
position to say, okay, thisperson has my best interest in
mind when they're sayingsomething difficult to take in.
(14:43):
So I, I really l ike that ideaof, hey, before we go into the
formal feedback process, let'swork on trust, let's work on
communication and building upsome of those relationships
that because of covid havestarted to, to grow and to get
stronger.
Michelle Thackray (14:57):
Yeah. And I think , um, another thing that
is so critical is the way thatan organization positions
itself in relation to feedback,right? So if you're perhaps
part of a toxic culture or a ,a rough environment where
feedback is perceived as athreat or an attack, it really
(15:17):
is the responsibility of theorganization to create an
environment where they haveembedded in their structures
and their processes, thesecontinual opportunities for
feedback loops. And not onlythat, they, they create those
opportunities, but then thatthe, the folks who are
receiving that information areactually utilizing it and then
(15:38):
providing information to thesender of the feedback that
they have leveraged it. Andthat they have taken advantage
of it. And so there are so manyeasy ways that you can do that
anytime that you have abusiness process really so easy
to get some quick informationout there for people to be able
to do a pulse check to let youknow what's going well, what
could be better, what are someof the pain points I'm
(15:58):
experiencing. And I think whenyou're focusing it too on the
process, rather than the personfrom an organizational
standpoint that's sending aclear message that like, we
want to be better, we want tokeep working and fine tuning
these things and focusing firston process when you're trying
to build and lean into thatculture around psychological
safety and providing feedbackto individuals about their
(16:20):
performance, that can be areally good way to kind of
softly start to lean into it.
Troy Blaser (16:25):
So who's the intended audience for the
leadership development program?
Um, is it administrative only?
Are you getting into theacademic side as well?
Michelle Thackray (16:34):
Yeah, that's a great question. So since it's
a pilot program, we'll firststart with ourselves and test
the efficacy of it, see if it'spopular, and then grow it from
there. I think ideally from thecompetency model building
perspective, we want to makesure that we're generating
buy-in across the universitythat way the competency model
is not geared toward just ourdivision, but instead can be
(16:57):
easily applied across theuniversity. So that part I
think will certainly involveall of the executive leaders
and perhaps even some of theirfolks who specialize in this
area or feel strongly aboutleadership development. And
then I think from there wewould essentially use the, the
division that I work within torun through the pilot program
and to test out the ebbs andflows and give us some feedback
(17:21):
on how we can make it betterbefore growing it more broadly
across campus.
Troy Blaser (17:25):
That's really cool. Have there been any
particular challenges orobstacles that you've either
you have faced or you foreseecoming in terms of developing
it?
Michelle Thackray (17:35):
You know, obviously wanting to make sure
that you've got the properfunding in place to be able to
grow something so that it canbe robust. And then to be
mindful of the fact that if allof the funding doesn't come
through that there are stillways that you can make progress
and thinking about yourmulti-year strategy based on
the funding solution that youhave in front of you. I also
(17:58):
think that you need to thinkabout your other resources and
your structure. So thinkingabout who are the people within
the organization that can helpcollaborate on this piece, who
can provide insight, expertise,guidance, who might actually be
interested in serving as aleadership coach if they
already have certification.
It's also about takingadvantage of the internal
(18:20):
programs that already existwithin the university. We're
very lucky to have the JonesBusiness School and Glasscock
Continuing Education. So thoseare two areas that we can also
lean into for some additionalsupport and resources. So yeah,
I think that those are someareas that I would certainly
want to keep a pulse on. Andthen of course, thinking about
(18:40):
the structures and theprocesses for how you're
actually going to build up theprogram, how you're going to
raise awareness, how you'regoing to keep things organized,
and making sure that people aregetting what they need as they
go through the program. I don'tthink I probably need to tell
you that a 360 is a reallyvaluable tool, but it is really
only going to meet its fullreturn on investment when it's
(19:03):
followed up with some solidcoaching to hold people
accountable and to make surethat they're bringing those
action plans to fruition oncethey've received that feedback.
Troy Blaser (19:12):
Yeah, I was going to ask you, some organizations
will use a 360 and approach theprocessing of that feedback in
different ways, either with aspecific one-on-one coaching
over a period of time, or maybesome peer group coaching where
the participants are helpingone another process that and
make plans or potentially evensort of a self-service model
(19:32):
where, you know, just thereport itself is kind of
walking you through that. Itsounds like you're, you're
leaning towards thoseone-on-one coaching
experiences.
Michelle Thackray (19:42):
I think it will end up being a bit of a
blend with the exception of the, the last one you had
mentioned of it beingself-service. So I think that
we have , um, a really greatopportunity for us to lean into
the one-on-one coaching,especially as we're starting to
grow the program and , andreally just pilot it. And then
as it becomes more robust andperhaps more popular and maybe
(20:05):
there's a greater demand, thenI can see the fluctuation
leaning into more of the groupcoaching if that makes the most
sense for the resources that wehave. I think that you always
have to weigh the benefits andthe disadvantages and thinking
about time and effort because Ithink many of our internal
coaches have full-time jobsthat they're still going to
have to make sure that they'remaintaining. So thinking about
(20:27):
what makes the most sense forthe university and how we can
still best meet the need tomake sure that leaders and
aspiring leaders have the toolsthat they need in order to be
successful.
Troy Blaser (20:39):
Yeah , absolutely.
You know, at the beginning ofour conversation, you shared a
story with us about the timewhen you received feedback. I
wonder , as you've worked withdifferent people over the
years, different organizationsand different clients and
different individuals, is therea time or an experience when
you've been able to observesomeone receiving feedback that
caused a point of inflectionin, in their career, in their
(21:01):
life, whether for good or forbad. Sometimes they're , it's a
bad feedback experience that isnoteworthy. But is there a
story that you could share withus as you've been involved in
helping others receive theirfeedback?
Michelle Thackray (21:11):
Yeah, there are actually a couple that come
to mind. And I think the onesthat probably stick with me the
most are when I have seen folkswho are on the precipice of a
big transition. And sooftentimes I have worked with
leaders or been fortunate to bearound leaders who are kind of
nearing the end of their careerand getting ready for their
(21:36):
next steps. Um, and in somecases that might be full
retirement, in other cases itmight be, you know, a soft
launch into retirement wherethey kind of start to do their
own thing and you know, maybego into consulting or some
independent contracting and Iwas working with a really
brilliant coach at the time whowas relaying to me and another
(21:56):
colleague about some of theways that they like to help
position the conversations withthose who are transitioning to
those different moments withintheir careers, particularly
when they're at the end oftheir career. And you know,
what , she will often kind ofposition the question and
especially if they're kind ofgrappling with this next stage.
(22:16):
So maybe some folks don'tnecessarily want to retire
because it's the unknown. Insome ways it's, it's like
starting all over again in aspace that is brand new. And I
think that it's just not alwayswelcome. 'cause when you've
been working full time sinceyou've been in your twenties,
that can be a really toughtransition. Yeah.
Troy Blaser (22:36):
It's a space that's brand new and that may
not have any boundaries yet.
Michelle Thackray (22:41):
That's right. That's right. Yeah. So
it's just like nebulous anduncertain and highly ambiguous.
And so I think what this coachtries to do is to really get
them to focus on what's withintheir control right now. And
one of the things that she'llsay to them is, if you could
only be remembered for thestate that you are leaving the
organization in, what does thatlook like for you? And then
(23:03):
what ends up happening over thecourse of that conversation is
that not only do they start toreally reflect about how do I
want to leave this for the nextperson who's going to come in
behind me and like, what wouldI want to be remembered for if
people are only going toremember me for the last year
that I've worked here? But italso starts to, I think, tap
(23:24):
into what are your intrinsicvalues? And what are the things
that matter most to you?
Because the way that you kindof respond to that question, I
think will be telling in avariety of facets of your life.
And so what I love about thattoo is that it's a bit like
giving feedback withoutactually giving feedback. It's
(23:45):
opening the door and givingpeople the space to be
reflective so that they can belike their own guiding light
and I think that that's reallypowerful
Troy Blaser (23:54):
That , uh, I mean that's a question that I, I
want to be asking myself as Igo along too, right? I mean,
because like you said, it givesthem a chance to kind of focus
on maybe the last year of theircareer or that they've been
with that particularorganization. But when you
first brought up that question,I'm like, well, I want to be
thinking about that questionnow so that at the end of my
(24:15):
career I will have hopefullydone the things right. That's
right. Leave the organizationin a , in a state that I want
to leave it in. I think that'sfantastic. I think that it's
not often that you think aboutwhat does feedback look like
for someone approaching the endof their career. That's right.
And, and helping move throughthat transition from working to
(24:36):
some form of retirement,whatever that looks like. Yeah.
Michelle Thackray (24:39):
And it's, it's a good reminder too that
we're getting feedback all ofthe time in all sorts of ways,
right. Like, whether it's whenyou're driving your car and
someone's honking at youbecause you've done something
wrong or someone's in pain likewhatever it is, we're receiving
information all the time. It'sall up to us about how we use
that information to ideallyinternalize it and hopefully
(25:02):
make improvements. And I thinkthat even if you are in an
organization perhaps thatdoesn't have that culture
around feedback centricity, Ithink that there are probably
ways that you can try to, tobring it into other aspects of
your life. Or even within yourown team to make sure that
you're queuing into thatinformation and making good
(25:23):
decisions and being very muchvalue driven .
Troy Blaser (25:26):
It seems like it comes up almost every episode
of Simply Feedback. We have acatchphrase here at Learning
Bridge , we talk about it allthe time of receive feedback
graciously and act on itvisibly. And you know, you kind
of alluded to that acting on itvisibly earlier as well in
those processes as you're justgathering information about the
simple business processes tohelp people understand that not
(25:46):
only did you hear what they hadto say, but you're making a
change that's visible to them.
And maybe that same kind ofthing can apply when we're
driving on the road and someonegives us feedback about how
we're driving. Right.
Michelle Thackray (25:57):
That's right. That's right.
Troy Blaser (26:00):
Well, so you've, you've gone through a change in
your employment moving fromGeorgia Tech to Rice, you know,
in the last year or so. Keepingour audience in mind, is there
some advice that you could giveto listeners, kind of maybe
they're going through somethingsimilar, a change in their
career, or maybe they're,they're sitting in their
(26:20):
organization going, I want toimplement a leadership
development program here atAcme Company. Is there
something that you've learnedas you've kind of had this
initiative that you could sharewith , uh, our listeners?
Michelle Thackray (26:32):
Yeah, I think my best bit of advice
around this might be to reallyfocus on the concept of
co-creation. So to really thinkabout who are the different
stakeholder groups? Who are thepeople that I want to generate,
buy-in with upfront , early on,get folks on board . And when
you're thinking through that, Ithink it's really important to
(26:54):
stratify those groups betweenwho are the decision makers ,
the ones who are going to beable to help remove any
obstacles that you might have,or they're going to give you
the green light. And then goingdown a level and thinking
about, okay, so then who arethe ones who are going to help
me get this up off the groundand running? And who are the
(27:15):
influencers who are going tohelp make this program stick?
And those are the, the folksthat you really want to make
sure that you're bringing inearly and often that you are
being transparent as youprogress, and that you yourself
are opening the door to receivefeedback throughout the process
(27:36):
so that you can be flexible inyour implementation. And that's
really why I love the conceptof pilot programs and strongly
encourage anyone who's thinkingabout launching something like
this to maybe consider takingthat avenue because there is
something about when peoplehear the word pilot, it's this
inherent understanding thatthis is a test environment. And
you know, we're going to try towork out the kinks and we're
(28:00):
going to get it wrong on theway to getting it right. And I
think that those are the thingsthat I would really focus on to
make sure that you've got theright people sitting around the
table, that you're bringingthem along with you in the
process, and that you're givingyourself and one another a lot
of grace to get it righteventually. Um, and to be
flexible in that process.
Troy Blaser (28:20):
I love that idea of co-creation because it now
all of a sudden, I'm not just asingle individual in an
enormous company, but I'vethought, okay, who can I reach
out to to help me with this?
And now I've got a team ofpeople and like you pointed out
to, to stratify it, to put theminto different areas of
responsibility or areas wherethey will be most effective in
(28:41):
whatever role they're going toplay in the co-creation
process. And you've, you'vebrought up a couple of times
the idea of doing a pilotprogram. I love that. My day
job is to write software and wewill often be working on a
project and think, you know,we're trying to plan out every
minute detail of, well, what'sthis page supposed to look like
and where should everything beplaced? And sometimes it gets
(29:02):
to the point where you say,let's build something and then
we'll go from there. You know?
So that idea of just gettingsomething done that you can
react to rather than spendingall your time upfront to get it
a hundred percent right thevery first time.
Michelle Thackray (29:15):
Yeah. I think that that's right. You
don't want perfection to be theenemy of progress. And that can
happen so often in anorganization when we get
hesitant or concerned aboutlaunching a brand new program
and, and wanting to make surethat it's perfect before it
gets out there. But I thinkwith feedback and leadership
and people development, peoplewant it. Right? Yeah. And most
people are happy to be part ofthe process to make it better
(29:38):
as they're moving through it.
So taking advantage of thateagerness and that willingness
to learn is going to be veryimportant for folks who want to
get something out there quicklyand want to take advantage of
whatever environment thatthey're in.
Troy Blaser (29:53):
Yeah. Well, Michelle , I have enjoyed our
conversation and hearing aboutyour projects, and it sounds
like you have some excitingtimes ahead. I wish you the
best of luck that you have thefunding, that your pilot test
is successful, that you're ableto make the tweaks that you
want to make to really thenroll it out and be able to, you
know, feedback can be such avaluable gift to people and
(30:14):
you'll be able to help themhave those kinds of turning
points even that maybe you hadearly on in, in your higher
education. If people want toknow more, if they want to
continue the conversation withyou, is that something you'd be
open to?
Michelle Thackray (30:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely. You can find me on
Rice's, internal and externalboards. Okay . Just by
searching my name and RiceUniversity. I'll pop right up
and , and you can feel free tosend me an email.
Troy Blaser (30:38):
Awesome.
Fantastic. Well, thanks again.
I've, I've really enjoyed ourconversation. It's been
wonderful to have you with ustoday. Thank you so much.
Michelle Thackray (30:45):
No, thank you, Troy. It's been so much
fun.
It really is the responsibility of the
organization to create anenvironment where they have
embedded in their structuresand their processes, these
continual opportunities forfeedback loops. And not only
that, they, they create thoseopportunities, but then that
the folks who are receivingthat information are actually
utilizing it and then providinginformation to the sender of
(00:22):
the feedback that they haveleveraged it, and that they
have taken advantage of it. Andso there are so many easy ways
that you can do that anytimethat you have a business
process really so easy to getsome quick information out
there for people to be able todo pulse check , to let you
know what's going well, whatcould be better, what are some
of the pain points I'mexperiencing. And I think when
you're focusing it too on theprocess, rather than the person
(00:45):
from an organizationalstandpoint that's sending a
clear message that like, wewant to be better, we want to
keep working and fine tuningthese things, and focusing
first on process. When you'retrying to build and lean into
that culture aroundpsychological safety and
providing feedback toindividuals about their
performance, that can be areally good way to kind of
softly start to lean into it.
Troy Blaser (01:11):
Hello, welcome to Simply Feedback the podcast
brought to you by LearningBridge . I'm your host, Troy
Blaser. I'm really excitedabout our conversation today
and for the chance to introduceour guest, Dr. Michelle
Thackray. Currently, Michelleis the Associate Vice President
of Operational Excellence andEngagement at Rice University.
(01:33):
And previously she was directorof strategy and assessment at
Georgia Tech. Michelle has ledtransformative initiatives and
fostered a culture ofcontinuous improvement at all
the places where she has workedwith a PhD in industrial and
organizational psychology.
Michelle's professional journeyis marked by significant
(01:53):
contributions to operationalstrategy and human resources.
She's also a certified changemanagement practitioner. So I'm
excited for our conversationtoday. We can start to learn
about some of Michelle's plansfor a new leadership
development program that she'sworking on. So, Michelle
Thackray , welcome to SimplyFeedback. It's great to have
you with us today.
Michelle Thackray (02:14):
Troy, thank you so much. I'm , I'm really
excited to dive in.
Troy Blaser (02:17):
Maybe just to help us get to know you a little bit
better, I wonder if you couldtell us about a time that
somebody gave you feedback,maybe it was feedback that
marked a turning point in yourcareer, or it had a significant
impact on your life. Is there astory that you could share with
us?
Michelle Thackray (02:32):
Yeah, that's, that's a great
question. I've been reallyfortunate throughout both my
academic and professionalcareer to have some really
great mentors who've beenreally generous with their time
and their energy and havereceived quite a bit of
feedback along the way. One ofthose is actually from my
undergraduate program. I wentto Coastal Carolina University
(02:52):
where my advisor was Dr. LindaPalm in the psychology
department. And I took, took acouple of classes with her
early on and it was in themidst of the statistics class,
the first level of the statsclass, which I was actually
really nervous about. I'venever been that strong in math
that's always been an area ofweakness for me. And I had a
(03:15):
lot of anxiety about the class. And after I would say maybe
like a month, a month and ahalf, I started to interact
more and more with Dr. Palm.
And I had explained to her mymathematical anxiety and how it
hasn't really been comingthrough so much in stats. And
that stats really unlocked anew way of thinking about
(03:37):
numbers for me. And over timewe started doing some research
together and she had sharedthat you actually have this
really great aptitude forstatistics and I know that
you're thinking about goinginto forensic psychology and,
and that's great and definitelyencourage you to continue doing
that. But I think that youshould look into this field
(03:59):
called industrialorganizational psychology, this
budding area within thepsychology field. And it has a
really bright outlook from acareer standpoint. And those
who do well with statisticstend to fare really well , uh,
in that particular type ofprogram and , and field of
study. So I started doing somedigging into it and I really
(04:20):
liked what I was reading andended up starting to take some
business classes then as aresult, to try to start
preparing me for kind ofswitching trajectories in terms
of my career and ended up onlyapplying to graduate programs
within io. And it reallyshifted the entire roadmap of
(04:41):
my career from a very simplebit of feedback where somebody
recognized something in me thatmaybe I didn't quite recognize
in myself and used theirexpertise to give me this
moment of reflection and thisopportunity to do some digging
and soul searching . And I amforever grateful for Dr. Palm,
both from just her generaladvisement, but also for really
(05:04):
setting up my career in a waythat I, I would not have
anticipated prior to stumblinginto her class.
Troy Blaser (05:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, talk about a turningpoint in a career, right? A a
whole entirely different roadthat Right . That she put you
on. That's, that's fantastic.
And I would imagine thatindustrial and organizational
psychology is not somethingthat maybe you had ever heard
about before coming to college.
You, you don't hear that, youknow, as a child and think,
that's what I want to go into.
Michelle Thackray (05:31):
That's right. That's absolutely right.
And even, you know, in mostundergraduate psych programs,
at least at the time, it mightbe a bit different now since
it's a more popular field, buteven then you couldn't even
really take like aconcentration course in it like
you could with some of theother psych areas. So I think
that really without thatguidance and that mentorship
and that feedback, the doors tothat world would've never been
(05:53):
opened for me. It was a reallyrare instance of feedback that
has stuck with me for all theseyears.
Troy Blaser (06:00):
And you've continued in your career so
far, continuing to work withuniversities, with Georgia
Tech, with Rice University. Soyou're still now able to have
an influence on some of thoseundergraduates, maybe in an
indirect way who are making allthose kinds of same career
choices. That's fantastic.
Michelle Thackray (06:16):
Yeah, that's right. And what's really cool
too is even though I'm on theadministrative side of higher
education, we often try todevelop robust intern programs
so that we can plug studentsinto really meaningful
experiences where, you know, alittle bit different and give
them an opportunity to see whata career might be like in HR or
(06:38):
in finance or in IT. So we tryto cultivate those experiences
for our students to have thisadditional benefit on their
resume when they go out intothe real world, quote on quote.
But yeah, it's , it's the bestpart I think about higher
education is you get to havethese great interactions with
these incredibly brilliantstudents. I always say that
(06:59):
like nothing ever makes me feelas much of a loser as I do when
I'm sitting there interviewingstudents for these intern
programs 'cause they're soaccomplished. And I'm like,
man, I was not doing that atthis age, but good for y'all.
Troy Blaser (07:09):
Well, and then you start to realize bit by bit
that you're no longer that sameage either, right?
Michelle Thackray (07:14):
That's right. Yeah . That's another
harsh reality.
Troy Blaser (07:17):
Cool factor that slowly ebbs away the farther
you get from being anundergraduate
Michelle Thackray (07:21):
That's right.
Troy Blaser (07:23):
Well, it's interesting because it , I have
a daughter who's graduatingfrom Utah Valley University
here in a couple of weeks.
Michelle Thackray (07:29):
Oh, congratulations.
Troy Blaser (07:31):
Oh, thanks. We're really excited. But she talks
about her mentor, she'sgraduating in humanities and
had a, a professor that was amentor to her over the last
couple of years. And I know herby her first name. And just
from hearing my daughter talkabout this mentor. So there's
no question that those kinds ofpeople really matter and make a
(07:51):
big difference in the lives ofthe people that they are able
to mentor. That's fantastic.
Michelle Thackray (07:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
Troy Blaser (07:57):
So you're now working at Rice University and
I understand that you'reworking on a project creating a
new leadership developmentprogram that you've submitted
for funding. And I'd love tohear more about that. Can you
tell us a little bit about thatcoming into Rice? Did you take
the job with that in mind? Isit something that is new since
you arrived? Or just give ussome details there.
Michelle Thackray (08:20):
Yeah, so Rice is this fantastic place to
be and I am so fortunate tohave stumbled into it when it's
at this really interestingmoment in time. So we've got
brand new leadership across theentire university really, and
with that there's a lot of newenergy and exciting ideas. What
(08:41):
we're trying to really focus onwithin the division that I work
in is this concept of acultural transformation. So we
actually just published ourstrategic plan within the last
month and a half or so, andthat strategic plan has
outlined some critical goalsand objectives that we're
really trying to accomplishover the next five years. And
(09:02):
it's really rooted around theseconcepts of operational
excellence, customerexperience, and community of
care. And I think there's thisreally interesting notion about
wanting to develop the talentthat we have internally at all
levels. And one of the areasthat I have been focusing on
(09:24):
over the last year or so hasreally been in the leadership
space. It's an area that I'mfamiliar with and I've got some
experience with, and it's anarea that I have a lot of
passion in. And we just came upon our budget cycle. And what I
like to do within my unit isreally to pitch ideas that we
can foster as these pilotprograms essentially. And we
(09:45):
can create these programs, wecan build them up, pilot them
very quickly, try to uncoversome of the obstacles in order
to streamline them , make themmore efficient, and then
ideally collaborate with othersacross the university so that
we can then transition thoseprograms to another department
and then we can continue to gothrough and pilot other
(10:06):
programs. And so that's kind ofwhere I'm heading with this
leadership development programthat I would really like to
start to foster this conceptabout leadership feedback,
really getting folks used tothis concept that feedback is
an asset and we should betreating it as such. And we
should be, you know, reallyleaning into these
(10:29):
opportunities when we can getfeedback from those around us
from all different spheres ofinfluence. And that's really
what this program is about. Sothe idea being to formalize a
competency model for Rce, andthen to develop a 360
leadership assessment throughthose competencies and get a
(10:50):
systematic program in place sothat we can cycle through our
leaders at various intervals.
They can receive this feedback,hopefully align it with that
feedback with strategy foreither their individual units
or perhaps even theirdivisions. And then start to
really build that culturearound openness to feedback,
receptivity to feedback thatgood psychological trust that
(11:12):
we know is necessary in orderto create a successful program
of that nature. And so that'sreally where what I've just
proposed recently and where I'mhoping to kick off this program
.
Troy Blaser (11:23):
Yeah. Depending on the current culture, it can be
a challenge to create thisculture of feedback. Are there
things that you're doing to tryto begin to make that change or
move towards that idea ofvaluing feedback in the
organization?
Michelle Thackray (11:37):
Yeah, I think there are a couple of
different things that you canreally do in order to create
that type of environment, but Ithink that where organizations
should really spend theirenergy is building trust and
connections between those in aless formal setting where you
are not throwing them into ,you know, immediately doing
(12:01):
some feedback sessions. And sothat's really where we've been
focusing some of our engagementactivities around. So we're
wanting to break down any silosthat might exist, whether
intentionally or not. I thinkthat one of the things that we
observe all the time is thatpeople get so busy that it's so
easy to kind of put yourblinders on and focus on the
(12:21):
task at hand rather thanthinking that you really are
part of this larger structure,this larger ecosystem, and that
in order to make things happensuccessfully, you need to
really be co collaborative. Andso one of the things that we're
trying to do this year is tohost periodic networking events
for various leadership levelsthroughout the organization. It
(12:44):
gives folks some opportunitiesto come together to have a meal
, perhaps have some icebreakerquestions to go through. And we
really are intentional aboutensuring that when folks are
engaging, that they are notsitting with just their team
members, that they're actuallysitting at a table with folks
who work across the, eitherentire division or across the
(13:05):
university, so that they canstart to get that better
connection and build thoserelationships. I think as bad
as Covid was for so manyreasons, one of the best things
that really shook out of it isthat folks in these larger
organizations perhaps had topull together in a way that
they never have before. Andcertainly when we were starting
(13:27):
to come out of the response andrecovery phase, one of the
things that I heard from a lotof my colleagues was, this was
so great for understanding whowithin the university I can
call on when I have certainproblems And it's no longer
just this org chart on thewebsite. I now have the faces
(13:48):
and the names of those who Ineed to rely on. I don't need
to wait for a crisis to unfoldin order for me to have those
connections. Now I can reachout more regularly and, and
continue to invest in thoserelationships. And I do think
that that's so important forpeople to be able to feel
comfortable leaning into thehonest and difficult
conversations is that you havethat connectivity, you have
(14:11):
that relationship, and you'vealready established that trust
so that you can understandwhere someone's coming from and
you can have hopefully the bestof intentions.
Troy Blaser (14:23):
Absolutely. I mean, if the trust isn't there,
folks just aren't going tolisten to the feedback they
might have suspicions about,well what are the motivations
for this person giving me thisparticular feedback? But if the
trust has been developed aheadof time, then they're in a
position to say, okay, thisperson has my best interest in
mind when they're sayingsomething difficult to take in.
(14:43):
So I, I really l ike that ideaof, hey, before we go into the
formal feedback process, let'swork on trust, let's work on
communication and building upsome of those relationships
that because of covid havestarted to, to grow and to get
stronger.
Michelle Thackray (14:57):
Yeah. And I think , um, another thing that
is so critical is the way thatan organization positions
itself in relation to feedback,right? So if you're perhaps
part of a toxic culture or a ,a rough environment where
feedback is perceived as athreat or an attack, it really
(15:17):
is the responsibility of theorganization to create an
environment where they haveembedded in their structures
and their processes, thesecontinual opportunities for
feedback loops. And not onlythat, they, they create those
opportunities, but then thatthe, the folks who are
receiving that information areactually utilizing it and then
(15:38):
providing information to thesender of the feedback that
they have leveraged it. Andthat they have taken advantage
of it. And so there are so manyeasy ways that you can do that
anytime that you have abusiness process really so easy
to get some quick informationout there for people to be able
to do a pulse check to let youknow what's going well, what
could be better, what are someof the pain points I'm
(15:58):
experiencing. And I think whenyou're focusing it too on the
process, rather than the personfrom an organizational
standpoint that's sending aclear message that like, we
want to be better, we want tokeep working and fine tuning
these things and focusing firston process when you're trying
to build and lean into thatculture around psychological
safety and providing feedbackto individuals about their
(16:20):
performance, that can be areally good way to kind of
softly start to lean into it.
Troy Blaser (16:25):
So who's the intended audience for the
leadership development program?
Um, is it administrative only?
Are you getting into theacademic side as well?
Michelle Thackray (16:34):
Yeah, that's a great question. So since it's
a pilot program, we'll firststart with ourselves and test
the efficacy of it, see if it'spopular, and then grow it from
there. I think ideally from thecompetency model building
perspective, we want to makesure that we're generating
buy-in across the universitythat way the competency model
is not geared toward just ourdivision, but instead can be
(16:57):
easily applied across theuniversity. So that part I
think will certainly involveall of the executive leaders
and perhaps even some of theirfolks who specialize in this
area or feel strongly aboutleadership development. And
then I think from there wewould essentially use the, the
division that I work within torun through the pilot program
and to test out the ebbs andflows and give us some feedback
(17:21):
on how we can make it betterbefore growing it more broadly
across campus.
Troy Blaser (17:25):
That's really cool. Have there been any
particular challenges orobstacles that you've either
you have faced or you foreseecoming in terms of developing
it?
Michelle Thackray (17:35):
You know, obviously wanting to make sure
that you've got the properfunding in place to be able to
grow something so that it canbe robust. And then to be
mindful of the fact that if allof the funding doesn't come
through that there are stillways that you can make progress
and thinking about yourmulti-year strategy based on
the funding solution that youhave in front of you. I also
(17:58):
think that you need to thinkabout your other resources and
your structure. So thinkingabout who are the people within
the organization that can helpcollaborate on this piece, who
can provide insight, expertise,guidance, who might actually be
interested in serving as aleadership coach if they
already have certification.
It's also about takingadvantage of the internal
(18:20):
programs that already existwithin the university. We're
very lucky to have the JonesBusiness School and Glasscock
Continuing Education. So thoseare two areas that we can also
lean into for some additionalsupport and resources. So yeah,
I think that those are someareas that I would certainly
want to keep a pulse on. Andthen of course, thinking about
(18:40):
the structures and theprocesses for how you're
actually going to build up theprogram, how you're going to
raise awareness, how you'regoing to keep things organized,
and making sure that people aregetting what they need as they
go through the program. I don'tthink I probably need to tell
you that a 360 is a reallyvaluable tool, but it is really
only going to meet its fullreturn on investment when it's
(19:03):
followed up with some solidcoaching to hold people
accountable and to make surethat they're bringing those
action plans to fruition oncethey've received that feedback.
Troy Blaser (19:12):
Yeah, I was going to ask you, some organizations
will use a 360 and approach theprocessing of that feedback in
different ways, either with aspecific one-on-one coaching
over a period of time, or maybesome peer group coaching where
the participants are helpingone another process that and
make plans or potentially evensort of a self-service model
(19:32):
where, you know, just thereport itself is kind of
walking you through that. Itsounds like you're, you're
leaning towards thoseone-on-one coaching
experiences.
Michelle Thackray (19:42):
I think it will end up being a bit of a
blend with the exception of the, the last one you had
mentioned of it beingself-service. So I think that
we have , um, a really greatopportunity for us to lean into
the one-on-one coaching,especially as we're starting to
grow the program and , andreally just pilot it. And then
as it becomes more robust andperhaps more popular and maybe
(20:05):
there's a greater demand, thenI can see the fluctuation
leaning into more of the groupcoaching if that makes the most
sense for the resources that wehave. I think that you always
have to weigh the benefits andthe disadvantages and thinking
about time and effort because Ithink many of our internal
coaches have full-time jobsthat they're still going to
have to make sure that they'remaintaining. So thinking about
(20:27):
what makes the most sense forthe university and how we can
still best meet the need tomake sure that leaders and
aspiring leaders have the toolsthat they need in order to be
successful.
Troy Blaser (20:39):
Yeah , absolutely.
You know, at the beginning ofour conversation, you shared a
story with us about the timewhen you received feedback. I
wonder , as you've worked withdifferent people over the
years, different organizationsand different clients and
different individuals, is therea time or an experience when
you've been able to observesomeone receiving feedback that
caused a point of inflectionin, in their career, in their
(21:01):
life, whether for good or forbad. Sometimes they're , it's a
bad feedback experience that isnoteworthy. But is there a
story that you could share withus as you've been involved in
helping others receive theirfeedback?
Michelle Thackray (21:11):
Yeah, there are actually a couple that come
to mind. And I think the onesthat probably stick with me the
most are when I have seen folkswho are on the precipice of a
big transition. And sooftentimes I have worked with
leaders or been fortunate to bearound leaders who are kind of
nearing the end of their careerand getting ready for their
(21:36):
next steps. Um, and in somecases that might be full
retirement, in other cases itmight be, you know, a soft
launch into retirement wherethey kind of start to do their
own thing and you know, maybego into consulting or some
independent contracting and Iwas working with a really
brilliant coach at the time whowas relaying to me and another
(21:56):
colleague about some of theways that they like to help
position the conversations withthose who are transitioning to
those different moments withintheir careers, particularly
when they're at the end oftheir career. And you know,
what , she will often kind ofposition the question and
especially if they're kind ofgrappling with this next stage.
(22:16):
So maybe some folks don'tnecessarily want to retire
because it's the unknown. Insome ways it's, it's like
starting all over again in aspace that is brand new. And I
think that it's just not alwayswelcome. 'cause when you've
been working full time sinceyou've been in your twenties,
that can be a really toughtransition. Yeah.
Troy Blaser (22:36):
It's a space that's brand new and that may
not have any boundaries yet.
Michelle Thackray (22:41):
That's right. That's right. Yeah. So
it's just like nebulous anduncertain and highly ambiguous.
And so I think what this coachtries to do is to really get
them to focus on what's withintheir control right now. And
one of the things that she'llsay to them is, if you could
only be remembered for thestate that you are leaving the
organization in, what does thatlook like for you? And then
(23:03):
what ends up happening over thecourse of that conversation is
that not only do they start toreally reflect about how do I
want to leave this for the nextperson who's going to come in
behind me and like, what wouldI want to be remembered for if
people are only going toremember me for the last year
that I've worked here? But italso starts to, I think, tap
(23:24):
into what are your intrinsicvalues? And what are the things
that matter most to you?
Because the way that you kindof respond to that question, I
think will be telling in avariety of facets of your life.
And so what I love about thattoo is that it's a bit like
giving feedback withoutactually giving feedback. It's
(23:45):
opening the door and givingpeople the space to be
reflective so that they can belike their own guiding light
and I think that that's reallypowerful
Troy Blaser (23:54):
That , uh, I mean that's a question that I, I
want to be asking myself as Igo along too, right? I mean,
because like you said, it givesthem a chance to kind of focus
on maybe the last year of theircareer or that they've been
with that particularorganization. But when you
first brought up that question,I'm like, well, I want to be
thinking about that questionnow so that at the end of my
(24:15):
career I will have hopefullydone the things right. That's
right. Leave the organizationin a , in a state that I want
to leave it in. I think that'sfantastic. I think that it's
not often that you think aboutwhat does feedback look like
for someone approaching the endof their career. That's right.
And, and helping move throughthat transition from working to
(24:36):
some form of retirement,whatever that looks like. Yeah.
Michelle Thackray (24:39):
And it's, it's a good reminder too that
we're getting feedback all ofthe time in all sorts of ways,
right. Like, whether it's whenyou're driving your car and
someone's honking at youbecause you've done something
wrong or someone's in pain likewhatever it is, we're receiving
information all the time. It'sall up to us about how we use
that information to ideallyinternalize it and hopefully
(25:02):
make improvements. And I thinkthat even if you are in an
organization perhaps thatdoesn't have that culture
around feedback centricity, Ithink that there are probably
ways that you can try to, tobring it into other aspects of
your life. Or even within yourown team to make sure that
you're queuing into thatinformation and making good
(25:23):
decisions and being very muchvalue driven .
Troy Blaser (25:26):
It seems like it comes up almost every episode
of Simply Feedback. We have acatchphrase here at Learning
Bridge , we talk about it allthe time of receive feedback
graciously and act on itvisibly. And you know, you kind
of alluded to that acting on itvisibly earlier as well in
those processes as you're justgathering information about the
simple business processes tohelp people understand that not
(25:46):
only did you hear what they hadto say, but you're making a
change that's visible to them.
And maybe that same kind ofthing can apply when we're
driving on the road and someonegives us feedback about how
we're driving. Right.
Michelle Thackray (25:57):
That's right. That's right.
Troy Blaser (26:00):
Well, so you've, you've gone through a change in
your employment moving fromGeorgia Tech to Rice, you know,
in the last year or so. Keepingour audience in mind, is there
some advice that you could giveto listeners, kind of maybe
they're going through somethingsimilar, a change in their
career, or maybe they're,they're sitting in their
(26:20):
organization going, I want toimplement a leadership
development program here atAcme Company. Is there
something that you've learnedas you've kind of had this
initiative that you could sharewith , uh, our listeners?
Michelle Thackray (26:32):
Yeah, I think my best bit of advice
around this might be to reallyfocus on the concept of
co-creation. So to really thinkabout who are the different
stakeholder groups? Who are thepeople that I want to generate,
buy-in with upfront , early on,get folks on board . And when
you're thinking through that, Ithink it's really important to
(26:54):
stratify those groups betweenwho are the decision makers ,
the ones who are going to beable to help remove any
obstacles that you might have,or they're going to give you
the green light. And then goingdown a level and thinking
about, okay, so then who arethe ones who are going to help
me get this up off the groundand running? And who are the
(27:15):
influencers who are going tohelp make this program stick?
And those are the, the folksthat you really want to make
sure that you're bringing inearly and often that you are
being transparent as youprogress, and that you yourself
are opening the door to receivefeedback throughout the process
(27:36):
so that you can be flexible inyour implementation. And that's
really why I love the conceptof pilot programs and strongly
encourage anyone who's thinkingabout launching something like
this to maybe consider takingthat avenue because there is
something about when peoplehear the word pilot, it's this
inherent understanding thatthis is a test environment. And
you know, we're going to try towork out the kinks and we're
(28:00):
going to get it wrong on theway to getting it right. And I
think that those are the thingsthat I would really focus on to
make sure that you've got theright people sitting around the
table, that you're bringingthem along with you in the
process, and that you're givingyourself and one another a lot
of grace to get it righteventually. Um, and to be
flexible in that process.
Troy Blaser (28:20):
I love that idea of co-creation because it now
all of a sudden, I'm not just asingle individual in an
enormous company, but I'vethought, okay, who can I reach
out to to help me with this?
And now I've got a team ofpeople and like you pointed out
to, to stratify it, to put theminto different areas of
responsibility or areas wherethey will be most effective in
(28:41):
whatever role they're going toplay in the co-creation
process. And you've, you'vebrought up a couple of times
the idea of doing a pilotprogram. I love that. My day
job is to write software and wewill often be working on a
project and think, you know,we're trying to plan out every
minute detail of, well, what'sthis page supposed to look like
and where should everything beplaced? And sometimes it gets
(29:02):
to the point where you say,let's build something and then
we'll go from there. You know?
So that idea of just gettingsomething done that you can
react to rather than spendingall your time upfront to get it
a hundred percent right thevery first time.
Michelle Thackray (29:15):
Yeah. I think that that's right. You
don't want perfection to be theenemy of progress. And that can
happen so often in anorganization when we get
hesitant or concerned aboutlaunching a brand new program
and, and wanting to make surethat it's perfect before it
gets out there. But I thinkwith feedback and leadership
and people development, peoplewant it. Right? Yeah. And most
people are happy to be part ofthe process to make it better
(29:38):
as they're moving through it.
So taking advantage of thateagerness and that willingness
to learn is going to be veryimportant for folks who want to
get something out there quicklyand want to take advantage of
whatever environment thatthey're in.
Troy Blaser (29:53):
Yeah. Well, Michelle , I have enjoyed our
conversation and hearing aboutyour projects, and it sounds
like you have some excitingtimes ahead. I wish you the
best of luck that you have thefunding, that your pilot test
is successful, that you're ableto make the tweaks that you
want to make to really thenroll it out and be able to, you
know, feedback can be such avaluable gift to people and
(30:14):
you'll be able to help themhave those kinds of turning
points even that maybe you hadearly on in, in your higher
education. If people want toknow more, if they want to
continue the conversation withyou, is that something you'd be
open to?
Michelle Thackray (30:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely. You can find me on
Rice's, internal and externalboards. Okay . Just by
searching my name and RiceUniversity. I'll pop right up
and , and you can feel free tosend me an email.
Troy Blaser (30:38):
Awesome.
Fantastic. Well, thanks again.
I've, I've really enjoyed ourconversation. It's been
wonderful to have you with ustoday. Thank you so much.
Michelle Thackray (30:45):
No, thank you, Troy. It's been so much
fun.
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