July 10, 2024 • 26 mins
Sally Helgesen, an expert on women’s leadership, discusses her book “How Women Rise” and effective strategies for women to rise in the workplace. Sally emphasizes how feedback should be based on recognizing strengths and provides insights into overcoming common habits that hinder women’s career advancement. She shares her observations on the evolution of workplace dynamics throughout her career. The conversation also highlights the importance of inclusive behaviors and how women can actively contribute to creating more inclusive work environments.
How Women Rise - Sally Helgesen
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Episode Transcript
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Sally Helgesen (00:00):
Every one of the habits, for example, in
this book, is rooted in astrength. And I think that is a
good point of departure whengiving feedback. You want to
acknowledge, you want to give alittle thought so you don't
sound like you're just, youknow , trying to be nice before
you give them the bad news .
(00:21):
You give a little thought aboutwhy the what's getting in their
way or what's tripping them up,or a response that doesn't
serve them that well. Why andexactly how that is rooted in a
strength that you've seen themexhibit.
Troy Blaser (00:46):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode
of Simply Feedback, the podcastbrought to you by Learning
Bridge . I'm your host, TroyBlaser. It's great to be with
you today. I'm super excited tointroduce our guest , Sally
Helgesen. Sally, cited byForbes as the world's premier
expert on women's leadership,is an internationally known
(01:08):
bestselling author, speaker,and leadership coach. Sally was
inducted into the Thinkers 50Hall of Fame, and her ideas
have shaped global leadershipranked number three, among
thought leaders by globalGurus, her latest book, Rising
Together topped Amazon's chartsand building on her success
with How Women Rise,co-authored with Marshall
(01:28):
Goldsmith, Sally offerspractical strategies for
inclusive workplaces. Her otherworks include The Female
Advantage and the Web ofInclusion. For over 30 years,
Sally has inspired leadersworldwide through workshops and
keynotes. Sally, welcome toSimply Feedback is so great to
have you with us today.
Sally Helgesen (01:47):
Thank you so much, Troy. It's wonderful to
be here
Troy Blaser (01:50):
And somewhat unusually for Simply Feedback.
We have another guest joiningour conversation today. I'm
pleased to introduce JuliaEinfeldt as the daughter of our
longtime producer, Michael.
Julia is joining us today.
She's a recent collegegraduate. Just starting out in
her career. She has read HowWomen Rise and found it very
helpful with a lot of fantasticideas. And so we thought it
(02:12):
would be interesting to haveJulia join the conversation
today with Sally just to givesome different perspectives,
ask some of the questions thatoccurred to her as she read
through the book. So Julia,welcome to our conversation
today.
Sally Helgesen (02:25):
Thanks Troy.
I'm happy to be here.
Troy Blaser (02:26):
Sally, we almost always like to start with a
question related to feedback ,just as a way to help us even
get to know you a little bittoo. But could you tell us
about a time that somebody gaveyou feedback that maybe had an
impact on your life or yourcareer, or marked a turning
point for you?
Sally Helgesen (02:41):
Certainly I've had a lot of feedback in my
life, but I think the thingthat was most helpful
ultimately, although I reallydidn't like hearing it , was my
friend and colleague, MarshallGoldsmith. This is about 20, 25
years ago , and we were at abig conference together ,
together , and he came up to meand he said, Sally, can I give
(03:02):
you some coaching? And what hemeans by coaching is feedback.
So I said, of course Marshall.
He said, when you get ready tosay something, it might be
helpful to you to, "think, am Iright? Probably so, do I need
to make that point? Probablynot." I love being right. I
(03:26):
have to say. So that wasreally, really helpful to me.
And I heard it surprisingly inthe spirit it was intended. I
only made one big mistake,which was I told my husband. So
now whenever I sort of score apoint in a conversation, he
always says, rememberMarshall's coaching. So , I
(03:47):
wish I hadn't done that, butit's been very helpful to me.
Troy Blaser (03:51):
So feedback that has had an impact on your life
and your marriage for many,many years, because he, your
husband remembers thatfeedback.
Sally Helgesen (03:58):
Oh, he does.
Exactly.
Troy Blaser (04:00):
As we have raised our kids, you know, Christmas
time rolls around, there'sgonna be presents happening or
a birthday where they're gonnabe getting presents. We try to
remind them as you receivethese presents, say things that
are true, kind and necessary,is the thing I'm saying true.
And is it necessary to besaying the thing? It's, it is
(04:20):
great feedback to have.
Sally Helgesen (04:22):
Yeah.
Troy Blaser (04:23):
Julia, I know that you have read how women rise in
the past, and I understand thatit's had an influence on you.
Can you share with us kind ofyour experience reading that
and some things that havehappened for you since then?
Julia Einfeldt (04:36):
So I read the book probably a year and a
half, two years ago. And someof the habits that I think kind
of stood out to me the mostwere the first two, which I
think kind of go hand in handabout being reluctant to claim
your achievements and just kindof expecting other people to
spontaneously notice and rewardyour hard work. And since
reading that book, there havebeen three times in my current
(04:56):
job where I have gone out of mycomfort zone and asked for a
raise, citing the things that Ihad done and my job to that
point. And I have gotten thatraise every single time, which
is awesome. And a couple monthsago, my boss even told me that
the first time that I did itwas able to kind of be the push
that he needed to get raisesfor everyone else on the team
(05:19):
too, which I thought was great.
So I think there's some reallygreat advice in the book, and
it's something that Iappreciated. And one question
that I thought as I was readingthe book, I feel like a lot of
the ways that women can rise inthe workplace is in some sense
being more like men. But I dothink there are some aspects of
the way women are naturallythat are not inherently bad,
(05:40):
just bad in a workplace that isrun primarily by and created by
men. And so I just wonder wherethere is room for more
femininity and moretraditionally feminine habits,
and could organizations bebetter if everyone, including
the men, adapted some habitsthat are more traditionally
feminine. And I just maybe hopefor a day that success can be
(06:01):
achieved more easily by womenbecause of, and not in spite of
some of our more traditionallyfeminine habits. And so I was
just wondering what you see as, as a possibility for that.
Sally Helgesen (06:11):
Well, I do think that's happening. I mean,
I have been actively observinghow the workplace has evolved
for, for really 50 years andwriting about these issues for
35. And I have seen atremendous evolution. Do I
believe we're where we wouldideally like to be? Absolutely
(06:31):
not. But I see men much morecomfortable listening, asking
questions. I see less tolerancefor leaders who bark out orders
or take the sort of my way orthe highway approach, which was
very, very popular. Say you goback to the eighties or early
(06:54):
nineties, you know, when theleaders who were lionized and
looked up to tended to be menwho were known for their
toughness and even in, in casesbrutality toward their
employees. And this is nolonger considered leadership at
its best. We certainly stillsee it, but it's no longer
(07:17):
considered leadership. So, soone of my observations is that
women have changed how weperceive excellence in
leadership. And it is beprecisely because a lot of the
characteristics they bring tothe workplace, which is a
(07:38):
strong value on buildingrelationships of feeling a
recognition that what theylearn at home is also valuable
at work and vice versa. Thesevarious characteristics that
women bring, which I actuallywrote about in the Female
Advantage back in 1990. I thinkthey're more accepted now. I
(08:01):
know they are . And that thathas served women well. And we
need to recognize that part ofthe change that has happened,
again in how we perceiveexcellence in terms of
leadership, is the result ofwomen's active participation
and growing influence.
Julia Einfeldt (08:22):
That's cool. I appreciate the insight that you
have seen a change over thecourse of your career. Like
Troy mentioned earlier, Igraduated college just a few
months ago and I've not been inthe workforce very long, and
it's cool to know that therehas been change happening. And
I would also ask then , forsomebody who is just starting
out in their career, whatadvice would you give for
(08:44):
somebody younger to not only besuccessful in a career, but
also be a part of an activechange in making the workforce
more inclusive for everyone?
Sally Helgesen (08:54):
Well, I think that, and we'll get into this
later when we're talking aboutrising together, but I think
that trying to identifyinclusive behaviors and
practicing them is verypowerful way of creating an
inclusive culture. And if youfind in the organization that
you're part of that those arenot being appreciated, then
(09:17):
you'll probably have a prettygood idea that this is not an
inclusive culture and you maywant to look elsewhere because
this will serve you very well.
You know, the workforce isgoing ever more diverse. So
organizations understand thatthey need to build inclusive
cultures. It's not, you know,them trying to be nice people.
(09:39):
It's them recognizing what theyneed to be able to motivate and
engage today's workforce, sothat will serve you well. And
then I think the other twothings are , number one, be
very clear about what yourstrengths are, because that's a
whole, being able to articulatewhat your contributions are, be
(10:01):
very clear about that, and seekto gain an understanding. And
if you are not clear, you canask for feedback. You know,
I'm, I'm wondering what do yousee as my real strengths? What
do you see as the primarycontributions you can ask
people you work with? You canask people you work for. You
can ask clients and customers,you get a real idea of what
(10:24):
your strengths are, and thenfind a way to articulate that,
that you're comfortable withand rehearse it so that you
become comfortable with it.
They're also for feedback, youknow, I've realized that one of
my real strengths is helpingpeople feel good about
themselves. And this reallymotivates the people on my
(10:46):
teams. And is that somethingthat you think I demonstrate or
make clear? You know, what areyour impressions and then I'm
trying to learn how to talkabout that in a way that's
really compelling and fresh,and here's what I've come up
with. What do you think ? Doesthat capture it? I know you can
(11:07):
really use feedback verypowerfully to begin to
understand your strengths.
Julia Einfeldt (11:13):
I appreciate that. Thanks. Yeah, I, I like
the point of asking forfeedback. I do think sometimes
it's a little difficult to justkind of sit and think oh, what
am I good at? But there'snothing wrong with asking
people for, for their feedback.
I think that's helpful. Thankyou.
Troy Blaser (11:27):
You know, one of the things that in rising
together, you talk aboutinformal enlistment, and that's
really a key way to getfeedback. I really liked that
idea. It's kind of, you know,pulling someone aside prior to
say a meeting and say, "Hey,I'm working on habit X" , maybe
it is that I go on too longabout a point and I'm working
to be more concise. So you pullsomeone aside prior to a
(11:50):
meeting say, and, "could youjust be on the lookout for, for
that and gimme some feedback?"And Sally, you talked about all
kinds of benefits that thatinformal enlistment has, not
only for the person receivingfeedback, but strengthening the
connection between you and thatperson that you've enlisted.
And I thought that was just a ,a marvelous way to get some
feedback on a particular thingthat you're working on.
Sally Helgesen (12:13):
Yeah, there are a lot of ancillary benefits.
First of all, you get a lot ofideas. Secondly, you're sort of
informally enlisting anotherperson in the service of your
own development, your ownleadership development, your
own skill development. That's abig positive. It gives you a
chance to expand your networkof allies. You really, in
(12:37):
however micro a way making thatperson your ally as you go into
that room. Thirdly, you're morelikely to be concise in that
meeting if you've told someonegoing in that you intend to be
concise, because you'll justlook at them and it'll cue you
to remember, "oh yeah, I'm, I'mtrying to be more concise
(13:00):
here". And then finally, youare advertising the fact that
you're changing. And this issomething that's really
important because inorganizations , uh, not so much
in teams, because we work veryclosely with people, but in
organizations we often acquire,I won't go so far to call it a
(13:20):
, a reputation, but we getidentified as something, "oh,
she's the one who sits in theback of the room. She doesn't
speak up." Well, we've beenspeaking up for six months. Uh
, they just didn't noticebecause that's how they think
of us. So when we're talkingabout this is something I'm
doing, I'm working on speakingup in meetings more in sharing
(13:44):
my responses, then people say,"oh, you know, I think I , I've
noticed that she speaks up alot more" because you told them
that that's what you're doing.
So tons of benefits.
Troy Blaser (13:57):
We talk about, people have a narrative in
their minds about Troy, right?
You know, if, if I work withyou over time, you'll develop a
narrative of your story aboutme. And like you say, if I'm
visibly trying to make changes,that's the way that I can
change the narrative that youhave about me is if I'm telling
you this is something that I'mworking on. So we sort of have
(14:17):
a motto or go-to motto is toreceive feedback graciously and
act on it visibly. That idea ofsharing with people, here are
the changes that I'm trying tomake. So I appreciate sort of
that little diversion intoinformal enlistment for just a
minute. But going back to howwomen rise, are there habits in
there or key points to keep inmind when giving feedback to
(14:38):
someone or potentially whenreceiving feedback? Are there
habits or advice you could giveus about, about that?
Sally Helgesen (14:46):
Definitely. One of the things that's important
to remember, and I make thispoint in the book but it's
often lost, which is that everyone of the habits in this book,
and these are not bad habits,they're not characterological
faults, they are simply habitsthat we've fallen into because
(15:10):
we're trying to address adifferent situation or the
experiences we've had. Youknow, we've been told, this
happens to women a lot. Youspeak in a meeting and somebody
goes, "well, you certainly gota lot of opinions" or you know,
"well you are being a littleaggressive in there" and
really, you know, it's thefirst time I've spoken, but you
know, we'll get that feedback.
(15:30):
So we take it to heart and weincorporate it and act on it,
and we expect others to notice.
So that's why it happens, butit's not characterological. It
becomes a habit that we'reaccustomed to. And what's
really important to remember isthat every one of the habits,
for example, in this book, isrooted in a strength. And I
(15:53):
think that is a good point ofdeparture when giving feedback,
you want to acknowledge, youwant to give a little thought
so you don't sound like you'rejust, you know, trying to be
nice before you give them thebad news. You give a little
thought about why the, what'sgetting in their way or what's
(16:16):
tripping them up, or a responsethat doesn't serve them that
well. Why and exactly how thatis rooted in a strength that
you've seen them exhibit. Andthat is really helpful to
people because then they kindof can see it as part of a
(16:36):
whole. They don't have to like,"oh my bad", you know, which is
meaningless. Uh, they don'thave to feel that way. They can
really understand. I see. Okay.
Because I'm such a, an intenselistener, I often default to
listening because that's mycomfort mode. That doesn't mean
(16:56):
I shouldn't continue to work onmy listening skills, which are
an important part of my successor what has served me. It just
means that I also want to be alittle more active in sharing
what my thoughts or responsesare and making a real
contribution to the generalconversation.
Troy Blaser (17:21):
I love that. You know, one of the things I
appreciated in how women risewas that you framed the habits
as a , a rut that you might befalling into or a habit that
you're falling into that youshould try to get out of or
stop doing, rather than here'sa list of 12 things that you
need to change to get better.
Right? You didn't want us toread the book and come away
(17:42):
with a longer to-do list.
Rather read the book, come awaywith some behaviors that you
can change and maybe lightenyour load because you're not in
these habits. You have beenable to stop doing something.
But I wanted to ask you, as youput the book together, did you
find yourself doing some ofthose habits and was there one
that was particularly difficultfor you to stop doing to get
(18:03):
out of that habit?
Sally Helgesen (18:04):
Oh, certainly the Perfection Trap, which has
been something that has beenwith me for a very long time. I
had also for years struggledwith being able to articulate
my achievements. I had to getover that at a certain point.
And it's the kind of thing thatwomen at a certain point in
(18:25):
their career have usually theirleft behind. But the perfection
trap, which is sort of one ofthe behaviors I call toxic at
the top. The other is thedisease to please, which
fortunately I've been spared,but the perfection trap feeling
that you're either doing aperfect job or you're failing.
It's something that I foundmyself struggling with and it
(18:49):
was especially important tothink about ways to address it
as I was working on thepublicity for how women rise.
Because if anybody doesn't haveit, it's my co-author Marshall
on that book. I worked withMarshall because I've been
influenced by his model on whatgot you here won't get you
(19:13):
there. And had realized theextent to which the habits and
behaviors he was focusing onapplied very rarely to women.
So I said, you know , let's dothis together because it was
his model, but let's focus onwomen. And he said, great, but
he's not a person who giveshimself a hard time kind of
about anything. So working withhim, that gives him a very
(19:38):
relaxed and spontaneouspresence on stage. Whereas I
tend to , uh, place a lot ofvalue on being hyper prepared.
And that's good, you know, it'sgood to be prepared, but it can
lessen your spontaneity. Andreally what I saw is it makes
me more focused on myself thanmy audience, because I want to
(20:02):
do it perfectly rather than,you know, "oh, I'm enjoying
this change. This is , uh, oh ,that's something I've never
thought of. That's , uh, that'sfascinating". I'm focused on
being the expert on having theanswers and delivering them in
the best way possible. So I hadto get over it. I had to work
on that. But that's one of thehabits that women often carry
(20:26):
with them into the later stagesof their career as well.
Troy Blaser (20:31):
I appreciate that.
It seems like a lot of it isabout finding a balance and not
going to one extreme or theother. If you're talking about
preparation, right. Not beinghyper prepared, but also you
have to have some idea of what,what you're gonna talk about.
Right. There has to be somelevel of preparation there and
finding that balance in themiddle, I guess the Goldilocks
(20:53):
approach, part of getting readyfor this, I actually read the
book and then I also listenedto the audio book version of
How Women Rise. I noticed theswitching between chapters,
right. Of a female narrator anda male narrator . Was that you
and Marshall reading the book,or was that someone that was
hired to read the book?
Sally Helgesen (21:14):
It was a very eccentric way they did it. Okay
. This was the publisher'sdecision that they would hire a
professional actor to read theinitial chapter or two, and
then it would be me andMarshall. So I did , I actually
read about 65-70% of that bookwas me, and I had only done it
(21:38):
once before. It's very tough.
But I learned a lot. And theaudio for Rising Together, I
think I did a good job on. Butyes, that's me and that's
Marshall. It's funny you shouldsay this, because when I
finished the process, it was sohard and I felt like it was so
bad because they go, "oh, thatwas a sibilant S you have to,
(21:59):
it's very powerful, right ?"And they keep doing it. "Oh,
there was your, you know,plosive K or Plosive P again".
So I said to my agent, I wantit written into my contract
next time that I'm not doingthe recording. However, what I
found was that all over theworld, women would come up to
(22:20):
me and say, I feel like I knowyou because I've been listening
to you speak in my car. So Isaw it was a real advantage. So
I said, forget what I said.
Troy Blaser (22:32):
I'll be honest, I had similar thoughts as I was
getting ready for today'sconversation and reading the
books and also listening tothem, I thought, wow, this is
really neat. I've never metSally, but I feel a little bit
like I know her. And I thinkhearing your voice read that
does have something to do withthat rather than just reading
the , on the printed page. Sothat's an interesting point
that you raised . Julia, Iwanted to give you a chance,
(22:55):
any other questions that youhave as we kind of wrap up with
How Women Rise. Anything elseyou wanted to say?
Julia Einfeldt (23:02):
Well, just to kind of piggyback off what
you're saying, I also listenedto the audiobook and
appreciated that too. It feelsmaybe a little more personable
and coming from a woman aswell, it carries more weight
than having a bunch of men tellyou how to be a woman or
whatever. So I very muchappreciate that. And yeah, I
just wanted to say thatappreciate the work that you've
(23:24):
done and what you were sayingearlier about Marshall's model
and kind of coming at it, "thisdoesn't super apply to women,
so how can we go forward withthat? How can we expand on this
and make it apply to women aswell?" I think is, I think is
great. And it's been a helpfulbook for me, especially just
barely starting out in mycareer, and this is making me
(23:44):
wanna go read it again and ,and some of your other works as
well to kind of get some moreideas about how I can be more
assertive and take charge of mycareer and my future a little
better. So I just wanna saythank you.
Sally Helgesen (23:56):
Thank you, Julia. That was , I really
appreciate what you just said.
Troy Blaser (23:59):
And Julia, I'll say, you know, I like your
initial question about some ofthose feminine characteristics
in the workplace, femininehabits, and so it makes me
think, okay, if we're stilldoing this in 20 years, I wanna
have you back on so you cantell us about the changes that
you've seen starting from nowand, and what the workplace is
like in 20 years because of theinfluence that you and others
(24:22):
like you have had. So I'm gladyou joined us today, Julia.
Julia Einfeldt (24:25):
Thank you
Troy Blaser (24:26):
And thanks everyone for listening to this
part of our conversation withSally Helgesen. Today's episode
was focused on her book, HowWomen Rise, but we had such a
great time and had so much totalk about that we're going to
save part of the conversationfor our next episode . So in
our next episode, we willdiscuss her most recent book
Rising Together. If you're notalready subscribed, please do
(24:49):
so to be notified when thatepisode airs and join us then
for another insightfulconversation with Sally
Helgesen.
Every one of the habits, for example, in
this book, is rooted in astrength. And I think that is a
good point of departure whengiving feedback. You want to
acknowledge, you want to give alittle thought so you don't
sound like you're just, youknow , trying to be nice before
you give them the bad news .
(00:21):
You give a little thought aboutwhy the what's getting in their
way or what's tripping them up,or a response that doesn't
serve them that well. Why andexactly how that is rooted in a
strength that you've seen themexhibit.
Troy Blaser (00:46):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode
of Simply Feedback, the podcastbrought to you by Learning
Bridge . I'm your host, TroyBlaser. It's great to be with
you today. I'm super excited tointroduce our guest , Sally
Helgesen. Sally, cited byForbes as the world's premier
expert on women's leadership,is an internationally known
(01:08):
bestselling author, speaker,and leadership coach. Sally was
inducted into the Thinkers 50Hall of Fame, and her ideas
have shaped global leadershipranked number three, among
thought leaders by globalGurus, her latest book, Rising
Together topped Amazon's chartsand building on her success
with How Women Rise,co-authored with Marshall
(01:28):
Goldsmith, Sally offerspractical strategies for
inclusive workplaces. Her otherworks include The Female
Advantage and the Web ofInclusion. For over 30 years,
Sally has inspired leadersworldwide through workshops and
keynotes. Sally, welcome toSimply Feedback is so great to
have you with us today.
Sally Helgesen (01:47):
Thank you so much, Troy. It's wonderful to
be here
Troy Blaser (01:50):
And somewhat unusually for Simply Feedback.
We have another guest joiningour conversation today. I'm
pleased to introduce JuliaEinfeldt as the daughter of our
longtime producer, Michael.
Julia is joining us today.
She's a recent collegegraduate. Just starting out in
her career. She has read HowWomen Rise and found it very
helpful with a lot of fantasticideas. And so we thought it
(02:12):
would be interesting to haveJulia join the conversation
today with Sally just to givesome different perspectives,
ask some of the questions thatoccurred to her as she read
through the book. So Julia,welcome to our conversation
today.
Sally Helgesen (02:25):
Thanks Troy.
I'm happy to be here.
Troy Blaser (02:26):
Sally, we almost always like to start with a
question related to feedback ,just as a way to help us even
get to know you a little bittoo. But could you tell us
about a time that somebody gaveyou feedback that maybe had an
impact on your life or yourcareer, or marked a turning
point for you?
Sally Helgesen (02:41):
Certainly I've had a lot of feedback in my
life, but I think the thingthat was most helpful
ultimately, although I reallydidn't like hearing it , was my
friend and colleague, MarshallGoldsmith. This is about 20, 25
years ago , and we were at abig conference together ,
together , and he came up to meand he said, Sally, can I give
(03:02):
you some coaching? And what hemeans by coaching is feedback.
So I said, of course Marshall.
He said, when you get ready tosay something, it might be
helpful to you to, "think, am Iright? Probably so, do I need
to make that point? Probablynot." I love being right. I
(03:26):
have to say. So that wasreally, really helpful to me.
And I heard it surprisingly inthe spirit it was intended. I
only made one big mistake,which was I told my husband. So
now whenever I sort of score apoint in a conversation, he
always says, rememberMarshall's coaching. So , I
(03:47):
wish I hadn't done that, butit's been very helpful to me.
Troy Blaser (03:51):
So feedback that has had an impact on your life
and your marriage for many,many years, because he, your
husband remembers thatfeedback.
Sally Helgesen (03:58):
Oh, he does.
Exactly.
Troy Blaser (04:00):
As we have raised our kids, you know, Christmas
time rolls around, there'sgonna be presents happening or
a birthday where they're gonnabe getting presents. We try to
remind them as you receivethese presents, say things that
are true, kind and necessary,is the thing I'm saying true.
And is it necessary to besaying the thing? It's, it is
(04:20):
great feedback to have.
Sally Helgesen (04:22):
Yeah.
Troy Blaser (04:23):
Julia, I know that you have read how women rise in
the past, and I understand thatit's had an influence on you.
Can you share with us kind ofyour experience reading that
and some things that havehappened for you since then?
Julia Einfeldt (04:36):
So I read the book probably a year and a
half, two years ago. And someof the habits that I think kind
of stood out to me the mostwere the first two, which I
think kind of go hand in handabout being reluctant to claim
your achievements and just kindof expecting other people to
spontaneously notice and rewardyour hard work. And since
reading that book, there havebeen three times in my current
(04:56):
job where I have gone out of mycomfort zone and asked for a
raise, citing the things that Ihad done and my job to that
point. And I have gotten thatraise every single time, which
is awesome. And a couple monthsago, my boss even told me that
the first time that I did itwas able to kind of be the push
that he needed to get raisesfor everyone else on the team
(05:19):
too, which I thought was great.
So I think there's some reallygreat advice in the book, and
it's something that Iappreciated. And one question
that I thought as I was readingthe book, I feel like a lot of
the ways that women can rise inthe workplace is in some sense
being more like men. But I dothink there are some aspects of
the way women are naturallythat are not inherently bad,
(05:40):
just bad in a workplace that isrun primarily by and created by
men. And so I just wonder wherethere is room for more
femininity and moretraditionally feminine habits,
and could organizations bebetter if everyone, including
the men, adapted some habitsthat are more traditionally
feminine. And I just maybe hopefor a day that success can be
(06:01):
achieved more easily by womenbecause of, and not in spite of
some of our more traditionallyfeminine habits. And so I was
just wondering what you see as, as a possibility for that.
Sally Helgesen (06:11):
Well, I do think that's happening. I mean,
I have been actively observinghow the workplace has evolved
for, for really 50 years andwriting about these issues for
35. And I have seen atremendous evolution. Do I
believe we're where we wouldideally like to be? Absolutely
(06:31):
not. But I see men much morecomfortable listening, asking
questions. I see less tolerancefor leaders who bark out orders
or take the sort of my way orthe highway approach, which was
very, very popular. Say you goback to the eighties or early
(06:54):
nineties, you know, when theleaders who were lionized and
looked up to tended to be menwho were known for their
toughness and even in, in casesbrutality toward their
employees. And this is nolonger considered leadership at
its best. We certainly stillsee it, but it's no longer
(07:17):
considered leadership. So, soone of my observations is that
women have changed how weperceive excellence in
leadership. And it is beprecisely because a lot of the
characteristics they bring tothe workplace, which is a
(07:38):
strong value on buildingrelationships of feeling a
recognition that what theylearn at home is also valuable
at work and vice versa. Thesevarious characteristics that
women bring, which I actuallywrote about in the Female
Advantage back in 1990. I thinkthey're more accepted now. I
(08:01):
know they are . And that thathas served women well. And we
need to recognize that part ofthe change that has happened,
again in how we perceiveexcellence in terms of
leadership, is the result ofwomen's active participation
and growing influence.
Julia Einfeldt (08:22):
That's cool. I appreciate the insight that you
have seen a change over thecourse of your career. Like
Troy mentioned earlier, Igraduated college just a few
months ago and I've not been inthe workforce very long, and
it's cool to know that therehas been change happening. And
I would also ask then , forsomebody who is just starting
out in their career, whatadvice would you give for
(08:44):
somebody younger to not only besuccessful in a career, but
also be a part of an activechange in making the workforce
more inclusive for everyone?
Sally Helgesen (08:54):
Well, I think that, and we'll get into this
later when we're talking aboutrising together, but I think
that trying to identifyinclusive behaviors and
practicing them is verypowerful way of creating an
inclusive culture. And if youfind in the organization that
you're part of that those arenot being appreciated, then
(09:17):
you'll probably have a prettygood idea that this is not an
inclusive culture and you maywant to look elsewhere because
this will serve you very well.
You know, the workforce isgoing ever more diverse. So
organizations understand thatthey need to build inclusive
cultures. It's not, you know,them trying to be nice people.
(09:39):
It's them recognizing what theyneed to be able to motivate and
engage today's workforce, sothat will serve you well. And
then I think the other twothings are , number one, be
very clear about what yourstrengths are, because that's a
whole, being able to articulatewhat your contributions are, be
(10:01):
very clear about that, and seekto gain an understanding. And
if you are not clear, you canask for feedback. You know,
I'm, I'm wondering what do yousee as my real strengths? What
do you see as the primarycontributions you can ask
people you work with? You canask people you work for. You
can ask clients and customers,you get a real idea of what
(10:24):
your strengths are, and thenfind a way to articulate that,
that you're comfortable withand rehearse it so that you
become comfortable with it.
They're also for feedback, youknow, I've realized that one of
my real strengths is helpingpeople feel good about
themselves. And this reallymotivates the people on my
(10:46):
teams. And is that somethingthat you think I demonstrate or
make clear? You know, what areyour impressions and then I'm
trying to learn how to talkabout that in a way that's
really compelling and fresh,and here's what I've come up
with. What do you think ? Doesthat capture it? I know you can
(11:07):
really use feedback verypowerfully to begin to
understand your strengths.
Julia Einfeldt (11:13):
I appreciate that. Thanks. Yeah, I, I like
the point of asking forfeedback. I do think sometimes
it's a little difficult to justkind of sit and think oh, what
am I good at? But there'snothing wrong with asking
people for, for their feedback.
I think that's helpful. Thankyou.
Troy Blaser (11:27):
You know, one of the things that in rising
together, you talk aboutinformal enlistment, and that's
really a key way to getfeedback. I really liked that
idea. It's kind of, you know,pulling someone aside prior to
say a meeting and say, "Hey,I'm working on habit X" , maybe
it is that I go on too longabout a point and I'm working
to be more concise. So you pullsomeone aside prior to a
(11:50):
meeting say, and, "could youjust be on the lookout for, for
that and gimme some feedback?"And Sally, you talked about all
kinds of benefits that thatinformal enlistment has, not
only for the person receivingfeedback, but strengthening the
connection between you and thatperson that you've enlisted.
And I thought that was just a ,a marvelous way to get some
feedback on a particular thingthat you're working on.
Sally Helgesen (12:13):
Yeah, there are a lot of ancillary benefits.
First of all, you get a lot ofideas. Secondly, you're sort of
informally enlisting anotherperson in the service of your
own development, your ownleadership development, your
own skill development. That's abig positive. It gives you a
chance to expand your networkof allies. You really, in
(12:37):
however micro a way making thatperson your ally as you go into
that room. Thirdly, you're morelikely to be concise in that
meeting if you've told someonegoing in that you intend to be
concise, because you'll justlook at them and it'll cue you
to remember, "oh yeah, I'm, I'mtrying to be more concise
(13:00):
here". And then finally, youare advertising the fact that
you're changing. And this issomething that's really
important because inorganizations , uh, not so much
in teams, because we work veryclosely with people, but in
organizations we often acquire,I won't go so far to call it a
(13:20):
, a reputation, but we getidentified as something, "oh,
she's the one who sits in theback of the room. She doesn't
speak up." Well, we've beenspeaking up for six months. Uh
, they just didn't noticebecause that's how they think
of us. So when we're talkingabout this is something I'm
doing, I'm working on speakingup in meetings more in sharing
(13:44):
my responses, then people say,"oh, you know, I think I , I've
noticed that she speaks up alot more" because you told them
that that's what you're doing.
So tons of benefits.
Troy Blaser (13:57):
We talk about, people have a narrative in
their minds about Troy, right?
You know, if, if I work withyou over time, you'll develop a
narrative of your story aboutme. And like you say, if I'm
visibly trying to make changes,that's the way that I can
change the narrative that youhave about me is if I'm telling
you this is something that I'mworking on. So we sort of have
(14:17):
a motto or go-to motto is toreceive feedback graciously and
act on it visibly. That idea ofsharing with people, here are
the changes that I'm trying tomake. So I appreciate sort of
that little diversion intoinformal enlistment for just a
minute. But going back to howwomen rise, are there habits in
there or key points to keep inmind when giving feedback to
(14:38):
someone or potentially whenreceiving feedback? Are there
habits or advice you could giveus about, about that?
Sally Helgesen (14:46):
Definitely. One of the things that's important
to remember, and I make thispoint in the book but it's
often lost, which is that everyone of the habits in this book,
and these are not bad habits,they're not characterological
faults, they are simply habitsthat we've fallen into because
(15:10):
we're trying to address adifferent situation or the
experiences we've had. Youknow, we've been told, this
happens to women a lot. Youspeak in a meeting and somebody
goes, "well, you certainly gota lot of opinions" or you know,
"well you are being a littleaggressive in there" and
really, you know, it's thefirst time I've spoken, but you
know, we'll get that feedback.
(15:30):
So we take it to heart and weincorporate it and act on it,
and we expect others to notice.
So that's why it happens, butit's not characterological. It
becomes a habit that we'reaccustomed to. And what's
really important to remember isthat every one of the habits,
for example, in this book, isrooted in a strength. And I
(15:53):
think that is a good point ofdeparture when giving feedback,
you want to acknowledge, youwant to give a little thought
so you don't sound like you'rejust, you know, trying to be
nice before you give them thebad news. You give a little
thought about why the, what'sgetting in their way or what's
(16:16):
tripping them up, or a responsethat doesn't serve them that
well. Why and exactly how thatis rooted in a strength that
you've seen them exhibit. Andthat is really helpful to
people because then they kindof can see it as part of a
(16:36):
whole. They don't have to like,"oh my bad", you know, which is
meaningless. Uh, they don'thave to feel that way. They can
really understand. I see. Okay.
Because I'm such a, an intenselistener, I often default to
listening because that's mycomfort mode. That doesn't mean
(16:56):
I shouldn't continue to work onmy listening skills, which are
an important part of my successor what has served me. It just
means that I also want to be alittle more active in sharing
what my thoughts or responsesare and making a real
contribution to the generalconversation.
Troy Blaser (17:21):
I love that. You know, one of the things I
appreciated in how women risewas that you framed the habits
as a , a rut that you might befalling into or a habit that
you're falling into that youshould try to get out of or
stop doing, rather than here'sa list of 12 things that you
need to change to get better.
Right? You didn't want us toread the book and come away
(17:42):
with a longer to-do list.
Rather read the book, come awaywith some behaviors that you
can change and maybe lightenyour load because you're not in
these habits. You have beenable to stop doing something.
But I wanted to ask you, as youput the book together, did you
find yourself doing some ofthose habits and was there one
that was particularly difficultfor you to stop doing to get
(18:03):
out of that habit?
Sally Helgesen (18:04):
Oh, certainly the Perfection Trap, which has
been something that has beenwith me for a very long time. I
had also for years struggledwith being able to articulate
my achievements. I had to getover that at a certain point.
And it's the kind of thing thatwomen at a certain point in
(18:25):
their career have usually theirleft behind. But the perfection
trap, which is sort of one ofthe behaviors I call toxic at
the top. The other is thedisease to please, which
fortunately I've been spared,but the perfection trap feeling
that you're either doing aperfect job or you're failing.
It's something that I foundmyself struggling with and it
(18:49):
was especially important tothink about ways to address it
as I was working on thepublicity for how women rise.
Because if anybody doesn't haveit, it's my co-author Marshall
on that book. I worked withMarshall because I've been
influenced by his model on whatgot you here won't get you
(19:13):
there. And had realized theextent to which the habits and
behaviors he was focusing onapplied very rarely to women.
So I said, you know , let's dothis together because it was
his model, but let's focus onwomen. And he said, great, but
he's not a person who giveshimself a hard time kind of
about anything. So working withhim, that gives him a very
(19:38):
relaxed and spontaneouspresence on stage. Whereas I
tend to , uh, place a lot ofvalue on being hyper prepared.
And that's good, you know, it'sgood to be prepared, but it can
lessen your spontaneity. Andreally what I saw is it makes
me more focused on myself thanmy audience, because I want to
(20:02):
do it perfectly rather than,you know, "oh, I'm enjoying
this change. This is , uh, oh ,that's something I've never
thought of. That's , uh, that'sfascinating". I'm focused on
being the expert on having theanswers and delivering them in
the best way possible. So I hadto get over it. I had to work
on that. But that's one of thehabits that women often carry
(20:26):
with them into the later stagesof their career as well.
Troy Blaser (20:31):
I appreciate that.
It seems like a lot of it isabout finding a balance and not
going to one extreme or theother. If you're talking about
preparation, right. Not beinghyper prepared, but also you
have to have some idea of what,what you're gonna talk about.
Right. There has to be somelevel of preparation there and
finding that balance in themiddle, I guess the Goldilocks
(20:53):
approach, part of getting readyfor this, I actually read the
book and then I also listenedto the audio book version of
How Women Rise. I noticed theswitching between chapters,
right. Of a female narrator anda male narrator . Was that you
and Marshall reading the book,or was that someone that was
hired to read the book?
Sally Helgesen (21:14):
It was a very eccentric way they did it. Okay
. This was the publisher'sdecision that they would hire a
professional actor to read theinitial chapter or two, and
then it would be me andMarshall. So I did , I actually
read about 65-70% of that bookwas me, and I had only done it
(21:38):
once before. It's very tough.
But I learned a lot. And theaudio for Rising Together, I
think I did a good job on. Butyes, that's me and that's
Marshall. It's funny you shouldsay this, because when I
finished the process, it was sohard and I felt like it was so
bad because they go, "oh, thatwas a sibilant S you have to,
(21:59):
it's very powerful, right ?"And they keep doing it. "Oh,
there was your, you know,plosive K or Plosive P again".
So I said to my agent, I wantit written into my contract
next time that I'm not doingthe recording. However, what I
found was that all over theworld, women would come up to
(22:20):
me and say, I feel like I knowyou because I've been listening
to you speak in my car. So Isaw it was a real advantage. So
I said, forget what I said.
Troy Blaser (22:32):
I'll be honest, I had similar thoughts as I was
getting ready for today'sconversation and reading the
books and also listening tothem, I thought, wow, this is
really neat. I've never metSally, but I feel a little bit
like I know her. And I thinkhearing your voice read that
does have something to do withthat rather than just reading
the , on the printed page. Sothat's an interesting point
that you raised . Julia, Iwanted to give you a chance,
(22:55):
any other questions that youhave as we kind of wrap up with
How Women Rise. Anything elseyou wanted to say?
Julia Einfeldt (23:02):
Well, just to kind of piggyback off what
you're saying, I also listenedto the audiobook and
appreciated that too. It feelsmaybe a little more personable
and coming from a woman aswell, it carries more weight
than having a bunch of men tellyou how to be a woman or
whatever. So I very muchappreciate that. And yeah, I
just wanted to say thatappreciate the work that you've
(23:24):
done and what you were sayingearlier about Marshall's model
and kind of coming at it, "thisdoesn't super apply to women,
so how can we go forward withthat? How can we expand on this
and make it apply to women aswell?" I think is, I think is
great. And it's been a helpfulbook for me, especially just
barely starting out in mycareer, and this is making me
(23:44):
wanna go read it again and ,and some of your other works as
well to kind of get some moreideas about how I can be more
assertive and take charge of mycareer and my future a little
better. So I just wanna saythank you.
Sally Helgesen (23:56):
Thank you, Julia. That was , I really
appreciate what you just said.
Troy Blaser (23:59):
And Julia, I'll say, you know, I like your
initial question about some ofthose feminine characteristics
in the workplace, femininehabits, and so it makes me
think, okay, if we're stilldoing this in 20 years, I wanna
have you back on so you cantell us about the changes that
you've seen starting from nowand, and what the workplace is
like in 20 years because of theinfluence that you and others
(24:22):
like you have had. So I'm gladyou joined us today, Julia.
Julia Einfeldt (24:25):
Thank you
Troy Blaser (24:26):
And thanks everyone for listening to this
part of our conversation withSally Helgesen. Today's episode
was focused on her book, HowWomen Rise, but we had such a
great time and had so much totalk about that we're going to
save part of the conversationfor our next episode . So in
our next episode, we willdiscuss her most recent book
Rising Together. If you're notalready subscribed, please do
(24:49):
so to be notified when thatepisode airs and join us then
for another insightfulconversation with Sally
Helgesen.
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