August 7, 2024 • 27 mins
Sally Helgesen, an expert on women’s leadership, discusses her book “How Women Rise” and effective strategies for women to rise in the workplace. Sally emphasizes how feedback should be based on recognizing strengths and provides insights into overcoming common habits that hinder women’s career advancement. She shares her observations on the evolution of workplace dynamics throughout her career. The conversation also highlights the importance of inclusive behaviors and how women can actively contribute to creating more inclusive work environments.
Rising Together: How We Can Bridge Divides and Create a More Inclusive Workplace - Sally Helgesen
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sally Helgesen (00:01):
The only thing I would say is I don't talk
about the benefit of the doubt.
I talk about giving others thebenefit of our goodwill.
Because it doesn't reallymatter whether our story is
true or not. Our default story,"I guess he doesn't have any
respect for me." Whatever itis, it doesn't matter. What
(00:21):
matters is that we find a wayto extend the benefit of our
goodwill. And in that storywhere the woman goes and says
to the guy, "Oh, I'm glad toknow that you agree with me on
that point," you are extendingthe benefit of your goodwill.
Not so much your doubt because,first of all, it's negative,
but it also means that you'resuspending doubt. It's
(00:43):
goodwill. And that is where thegrace part comes in.
Troy Blaser (00:50):
Hello and welcome to Simply Feedback. It's the
podcast brought to you byLearning Bridge . I'm your
host, Troy Blaser, and I'm gladto have you along with us
today. Now you may rememberthat in our last episode, our
guest was Sally Helgesen and wefocused primarily on a previous
book of Sally's called HowWomen Rise. For today's
episode, we are continuing thatconversation. We will be
(01:14):
discussing her latest bookRising Together. Now, if you
haven't listened to the lastepisode yet, I would encourage
you to check that one out. It'svery interesting. But again,
continuing with us for today'sepisode, we also have Julia
Einfeldt, who is a recentcollege graduate, just starting
out her career, and she hadsome questions for Sally. I had
(01:36):
some questions for Sally. Sothis is another great episode.
I hope you enjoy our continuingconversation with Sally
Helgesen. Sally, before we getinto some specific questions
about your latest book, RisingTogether: How We Can Bridge
Divides and Create a MoreInclusive Workplace, maybe can
you give our audience a quicksummary of the book, maybe
(01:56):
where it came from and what youwere trying to cover with it?
Sally Helgesen (01:59):
Yeah, very quickly, what I noticed was
that a lot of the organizationsthat I worked with that had
diversity initiatives were veryfocused on unconscious bias and
they were not sufficientlyfocused, in my view, on
behaviors, inclusive behaviors.
So what I set out to do was tolook at, to kind of identify
(02:21):
the habits that are most likelyto build inclusive cultures,
but also the habits that helpus as individuals to build
comfortable and effectiverelationships with people we
may perceive as being differentfrom ourselves. Gender,
(02:42):
ethnicity, race, religion.
There's so many divides now.
Sexual identity, age across thespectrum, what can help us
build those relationships? Veryimportant for teams and also as
noted earlier, very importantgiven the increasing diversity
of our workplaces.
Troy Blaser (03:04):
I liked that emphasis on behaviors and I'm
sure we'll talk about that aswe go along here. How would you
define inclusive leadership? Aswe think about that?
Sally Helgesen (03:13):
Inclusive leadership is really a leader
who skillfully cultivates aninclusive culture. And I would
define an inclusive culture asa culture in which the highest
possible percentage of peoplefeel a sense of belonging. And
we can tell this becausethey'll talk about the
(03:34):
organization as we not they. Soit's very easy to identify also
the highest percentage ofpeople feel valued for their
potential rather than just whatthey're actually contributing
at the moment. So they feelseen and recognized. And the
highest percentage of peoplealso feel that how they matter
(03:55):
is not just tied to the levelthat they're at in the
organization.
Troy Blaser (04:00):
I like that. So in rising together, you talk about
eight triggers that affect ourability to rise together. What
do you mean by triggers? As youtalk about those eight triggers
in the book,
Sally Helgesen (04:13):
Triggers are important because what I
recognized was it's easy toidentify inclusive behaviors,
but the reason that peopleoften may be aware of them but
not act on them is because theyfeel triggered in certain
situations. So triggers aresituations , uh, people, words
(04:34):
that there's something externalin the environment that stirs
an emotional reaction in us.
That's basically it. It's howwe respond to our external
environment because it stirssomething in us. And what we
usually do if we feel triggeredby something is we feel an
(04:56):
emotion. We feel anger, we feelrage, we feel discouraged, like
why does this keep happening?
Or , uh, sad, "Oh, I didn'tthink this person was a jerk,
but now I see they are,"whatever it is, we feel that.
And then we tend to tellourselves some kind of story to
justify how we feel, you know,"Oh , uh, people in this
(05:19):
organization just don't getit." Or fairness is a trigger.
Men have all the advantageshere, or women have all the
advantages here or whatever.
It's so we tell ourselves astory about it, but it doesn't
give us any kind of pathforward. It may be true, it may
not be true. It doesn't reallymatter. What matters is the
(05:40):
impact it has on us.
Troy Blaser (05:42):
That makes sense.
Yeah. It's not useful ifthere's no path forward, if
there's not a good way forward.
I wanted to read a paragraphfrom the book that I thought
was very interesting. "Theemphasis in universities in
recent years on encouragingpeople to shield themselves and
others from potential triggersdoes a huge disservice to
students who will soon findthemselves in a workplace where
(06:04):
the ability to deal with arange of people is expected and
required instead of shying awayfrom triggering situations,
avoiding potentially sensitiveencounters or lobbying
accusations. Every one of usneeds to build our awareness of
their impact so we can findserviceable ways to respond."
Has that stirred a reaction forgood or bad among readers of
(06:26):
the book, Sally?
Sally Helgesen (06:28):
I haven't seen much of a negative reaction,
which I know surprised mebecause I've heard from a lot
of academics and I thought theywould be outraged. But I think
it's gotten to a point where wedo see that this whole thing
trigger alert, trigger warning,the ability of students to
stand up in a classroom andsay, I feel triggered by this
(06:51):
conversation. And then walkingout of the classroom and maybe
someone filing a complaint.
That kind of situation, whichwe've seen really for about 15
years, it does not serveyounger people when they get
into the workplace because theydon't have that ability to be
able to say, "Oh, I don't likethis conversation. I feel
sensitive. This is stirringsomething in me." So I think
(07:13):
that at a formative period in ayoung person's life, they're
being encouraged often not tolearn, not to develop the
skills that they will need tobe able to address triggers.
And you get in the environment, uh, you get out in the
neighborhood, a community,yeah, you get into many, many
(07:34):
workplaces and it can be prettytough and people will say
things that you really don'tlike, but if you let those
things trigger you every timeor don't have a sense of
proportion, this constitutessexual harassment or just this
person speaks in an insultingway that really gets a reaction
(07:55):
from me. Those are verydifferent things. So if we
don't learn those skills, thenwe have no way to address them
and it doesn't serve us. Andthat's my concern. It doesn't
serve the younger people cominginto the workplace.
Troy Blaser (08:09):
Julia, what are your thoughts?
Julia Eindeldt (08:11):
You know, trigger is a big buzzword right
now. I feel like with youngergenerations, people more around
my age, it's something that youhear a lot. And one of the big
issues that I see with that is,"This triggered me, I'm going
to make it everybody else'sproblem now and everybody else
needs to change their behaviorbecause I don't like that."
Which as you were saying, itdoesn't serve us. It's not
(08:31):
helpful in academia and it'snot going to be helpful for the
rest of our lives. I thinkthere's a lack of personal
responsibility there. You can'tdecide how other people act.
You can only decide how youreact to that, but it's
something that I see a lot. SoI just kind of wonder what is a
better response when we feeltriggered? What are those
(08:52):
specific skills and habits thatwe can be developing to not
only not react in such anegative way and make it other
people's problem, but to becomebetter and improve ourselves in
spite of those things?
Sally Helgesen (09:04):
Wonderful, wonderful question. Here's what
I suggest. Here's what I havefound effective with the people
I've worked with. First of all,you want to identify when you
feel triggered. So you want toknow that, and that's an
important thing. "Oh, I see. Ifeel triggered in this
situation." So before you startspeaking about it, you realize,
(09:24):
what does that make me feel?
Angry, sad, upset, irritated,like I never want to see this
person again. Be honest aboutit. Whatever it makes you feel
you're feeling. So you want toknow that, then you want to
recognize that kind of what youwere saying. It's, we can't
control our environments and wecan't really even control our
(09:48):
responses if we feel punched inthe gut about something, that's
what we feel. But we cancontrol the narrative that we
use to explain what justhappened. This is a workplace
example. It's very common.
Again, been working in women'sleadership for 35 years now.
(10:08):
And uh, what I've seen, a womanwill be in a meeting, she'll
make a point, she'll raise asuggestion or an idea, nobody
acknowledges it. And then five,10 minutes later, a man,
usually at a higher level,we'll make the same point and
people will say, oh , what agreat idea. That's terrific.
(10:31):
And you feel really unseen. Youfeel disrespected. And what
people will often do is tellthemselves, "Okay, that guy
tried to steal my idea, orthese guys around here can't
hear anything from a woman'smouth. Might as well just keep
(10:51):
my mouth shut." So whateverthat story is, that story is
your responsibility. That'ssomething that you are telling
yourself in response. Andusually it leaves you three
paths , none of which areconstructive, inwardly fuming,
deciding you don't like thatperson. Grabbing a friend who
you believe will agree with youand complaining about what just
(11:14):
happened, or if you feel it wasegregious, lodging a complaint
about it. And it probably doesnot rise to that level, which
is what you describe as makingit everybody else's problem. A
great way of describing it.
Instead, you have the power tobe able to rewrite that
(11:35):
narrative and give yourself anexplanation that provides you
with a path forward. Here's anexample with what just
happened. You could go up tothe guy afterwards and say,
"Oh, I'm really glad you echoedmy idea. I'm glad to learn that
we think alike. Maybe we shouldmeet and talk about how we
(11:58):
could make this happen." Youcould do that in an email. If
in the moment you feel tooblindsided to be able to act
like that, what you are doingis you are giving yourself a
path forward . You couldcollaborate with this person on
something. If you don't, ifthat never happens, you've at
least reached out to thisperson and shown them that you
(12:23):
noticed what they said. By theway, you're also aware that you
said it, did they notice? Butyou're not putting it that way.
"Hey, I made that point beforeyou did." No, you're just
saying "Great point. I'm gladyou agree with me." And then
potentially it's the start ofsome kind of relationship that
(12:43):
you could build with thatperson. Even if nothing
positive happens at all, youhave practiced a more
constructive response to beingtriggered. And that is of great
value.
Julia Eindeldt (12:59):
That makes a lot of sense. I like that you
said too , we can't alwayscontrol our initial reaction.
It's okay to feel what we feel,but then going forward, the
narrative is huge. I feel likethat's something that I
definitely could work on a lotbecause it's so easy to get
stuck in a trap of like, thishappened because of this
reason, and then how women rise, that ruminating habit of, you
(13:20):
know, you just sit there andyou get yourself in a worse and
worse mood and the world's outto get you and everything is
the worst. It's not helpful.
And so just changing thenarrative around it to be
something productive, even ifnothing good comes out of it. I
think that's huge. I like thata lot.
Troy Blaser (13:37):
Sally, I really liked the way that you talked
about it becomes almost a formof grace that you can extend to
that individual because you'regiving them the benefit of the
doubt that they're notintentionally trying to
sideswipe you or undermine you.
And so by providing thisproductive way forward for
yourself, you're extendinggrace to that individual. That
really resonated for me as, oh,that sounds like something that
(13:59):
I, I want to be a person whoextends grace and hopefully
some in return. And this is away to be able to do that in a
small measure.
Sally Helgesen (14:07):
Exactly. Troy, the only thing I would say is I
don't talk about the benefit ofthe doubt. I talk about giving
others the benefit of ourgoodwill because it doesn't
really matter whether our storyis true or not, right ? Our
original story, our defaultstory, "I guess he doesn't have
any respect for me." Whateverit is, it doesn't matter. What
(14:31):
matters is that we find a wayto extend the benefit of our
goodwill and and that storywhere the woman goes and says
to the guy,"Oh, I'm glad toknow that you agree with me on
that point," you are extendingthe benefit of your goodwill,
not so much your doubt becausefirst of all it's negative, but
it also means that you'resuspending doubt. It's goodwill
(14:54):
and that is where the gracepart comes in I think.
Troy Blaser (14:58):
I like that. I wanted to go back a little bit
to this idea of the narrativethat others have of us at
Learning Bridge . We do a lotof 360 degree feedback and part
of the value of A 360 isunderstanding other people's
perceptions of youunderstanding that narrative
that they have about you as theperson receiving feedback. In
your chapter on managingperceptions, one of the themes
(15:20):
is that we can't pleaseeveryone and that changing to
try to do so can undermine ourability to thrive. Is there
some advice you can give usabout finding that balance
between managing what othersthink about us without over
managing or under managing?
We're kind of back to thatGoldilocks idea here.
Sally Helgesen (15:38):
We are yes, and certainly there are people who
under manage what people thinkabout them. The minute they
think somebody doesn't thinkthey're the most fabulous
person who ever lived, theydon't get it. They're a jerk.
Whatever, they dismiss it.
They're not going to adapttheir behavior. They're not
going to admit they didsomething wrong. They're not
going to admit that theyprovoked a person. It's the
(16:01):
other person's fault. Thosepeople are under managers.
There are other people who areover managers . And again,
having worked with a lot ofwomen, and Julia referenced
rumination, a lot of women tendto try to over manage people's
perceptions and they get veryinvested in making sure that
(16:22):
people at every point of theway are pleased and satisfied.
But it's not so much that youcan't make it happen, it's that
it often distracts you from theprimary thing you're trying to
do. We're trying to have aneffective team effort to
address a shortfall we've hadamong certain customers or
(16:46):
clients, or we've gottenfeedback that clients are
dissatisfied about something.
So the effective thing istrying to think of ways to
address that and that's whatour task is there. But if
you're an over manager ofpeople's perceptions, that's
one thing you're trying to do.
(17:06):
But the other thing you'retrying to do is worry . "Did I
say something wrong? Did Ioffend somebody? Is it neither
talking about, did I fallshort? Oh, maybe it was that
time that I forgot." Whateveryou're getting overly involved
in trying to make things betterin the quest to essentially
(17:32):
please other people. And that'sdistracting and it takes away
from your ability to bring alot of energy to finding a
solution. And it also, I wouldsuggest, weakens your ability
to represent yourself stronglyas a leader because you are
(17:54):
distracted from the task athand.
Troy Blaser (17:57):
Hmm . I really like that point, that idea of,
"Hey, the team is reallymeeting to accomplish this
goal. If we spend all of ourtime making sure that everyone
on the team is happy, then itcould be more difficult because
the energy is not going towardsthat objective." Another
interesting concept in the bookis that concept of authenticity
(18:18):
and being authentic to oneself.
Can you share with us how canstriving to be authentic affect
our ability to respond tofeedback?
Sally Helgesen (18:27):
Yes. I think it can have a real impact upon
that. Authenticity is awonderful thing, and I
completely understand why.
There's much discussion ofauthenticity now in
organizations. It's tied insome way to the diversity of
the workplace. People want tobe able to feel like they can
be who they are when they're atwork. Very important concept
(18:52):
all to the good. But we talkabout it so much. I think it
gives people the idea thatthey're being untrue to
themselves if they're notcompletely authentic in every
situation. Then in terms ofresponding to feedback, it can
make us defensive. It can makeus very defensive. "I can't
believe you would say that. Ifind that disrespectful," that
(19:14):
sort of thing. Or at leastwe're thinking that. So we're
dismissive of feedback becausewe feel that that's our
authentic response. We're justbeing ourselves. And you hear
this across every group, youknow, "I'm just telling it like
it is. I'm just telling it likeI see it. This is my
perspective, this is how I seethings." Well, that's nice,
(19:37):
that's wonderful and it's goodthat you know that. But in
feedback situations or a lot ofother workplace related
situations, you benefit bykeeping an open mind and
considering asking theimportant question, "How can I
(20:00):
do things better in thefuture?" It's one reason I love
Marshall's term feed forward .
It's not about let's go overand over and over what you did
before. Let's look at how youcould do this differently in
the future.
Troy Blaser (20:17):
In some ways, that idea of authenticity reminds me
of our conversation earlierabout triggers. And Julia, you
talked about, "I feel triggeredand now it's somebody else's
problem to fix for me." Right?
And maybe it's that sometimesour authenticity gets expressed
and if you don't like it,that's your problem to solve.
And it sounds like what you'resaying is, again, there's a
(20:38):
middle ground there, right?
Show up and be who you are, butfigure out how that fits in
with who everybody else is too, so that we're all working
together towards the commongoal of whatever the the team
is working on or the company.
Sally Helgesen (20:53):
Very good connection there. I think
between the authenticity, thatcommitment, I gotta be me, and
making the fact that you feeltriggered everybody else's
problem.
Troy Blaser (21:06):
Yeah. Trying to find that middle ground, I
suppose. Okay. So Julia hasasked a couple of questions.
This one is for me to ask andthat is, do you have some
advice for a male leader in anorganization? How can male
leaders contribute to fosteringa more inclusive environment?
Sally Helgesen (21:26):
Well, I think that part of the way in which
we haven't been well served byhow diversity broadly defined
has been done is that manypeople, especially male leaders
I find are overly focused ontheir own biases. And you want
to be aware of what those are.
That's important, but you'renot faded to act on them. So I
(21:49):
think identify number one,identifying a few inclusive
behaviors that would makepeople feel more appreciated,
recognized, and seen. Andyou'll find these out by asking
for feedback. Is theresomething you believe that I
could do in these meetings withthis team in my role as a
(22:14):
leader here? Is there somethingI could do that would help
people feel more like they're apart of? I noticed I heard the
other day some people talkingabout what we were doing and
they kept talking about ourcompany as they, you know,
well, they now want to theywant to do that. So that clued
(22:34):
me to think that we're fallinga little close on the inclusion
front. Is there anything youthink it would be helpful to
see me do now you're probablyasking somebody who's at a
lower status level or newer tothe organization than you. So
you want to be very, veryclear. You are telling me would
(22:55):
be very helpful to me. It wouldbe a big favor to me. Because
this isn't going to serve uswell so that you can sort of
make it more comfortable forthem to share and not feel like
they're criticizing the boss.
So I think that's a good way toget this started. There's
another step though. So youwant to identify those
(23:16):
inclusive behaviors that youthink will specifically help in
this situation. And then youwant to hold the people around
you accountable for acting onthem. You really do. This is
where the problem often arises.
The senior leader will get verycomfortable with the idea we're
(23:36):
an inclusive organization.
We've made commitment is tocreate an inclusive culture,
and then he or she is someonewho's not behaving inclusively.
So it has to be coming from youand it has to be coming from
those in positions of authorityand influence throughout the
organization.
Troy Blaser (23:57):
I really liked your emphasis on behaviors in
the book and you point out, andI think rightfully so, it's
going to feel awkward to dosome of these things. It's
going to feel at first, likeit's not the genuine you doing
these actions, but that willchange as you continue to do
them. You point out that it'sbecause you have existing
(24:18):
habits and as you do thesethings that are not the habit ,
they will feel quite unusual,quite awkward, perhaps maybe
not genuine, but as youcontinue to do them, they will
become the new habits and startto feel more natural to you.
Sally Helgesen (24:32):
Yeah, we all change over time. I mean, every
one of us can think back on anattitude that we held earlier
or a way that we acted towardpeople or were in the world
earlier that we're no longercomfortable with that wouldn't
serve us. So we don't have thisfixed identity as human beings.
(24:54):
And it's how we evolve. We lookat habits, we develop new ones
, we get comfortable with them.
They become part of ouroperating style.
Troy Blaser (25:06):
Well, Sally, I have thoroughly enjoyed this
conversation. If people want toknow more, are you open to
continuing the conversation?
What's the best way to get intouch with you?
Sally Helgesen (25:16):
Thank you for asking. I'm pretty easy to get
in touch with. My website is.
It's got a contact button thatgoes straight through to my
email, so I respond. The emailis and I'm on all the platforms
(25:36):
as Sally Helgesen. One thingI'm not great about is
responding to LinkedInmessages, so going through my
website usually is a betterbet.
Troy Blaser (25:46):
Super. And Julia, it's been great to have you as
a guest on our conversationtoday.
Julia Eindeldt (25:52):
Thanks. I'm happy to be here.
Troy Blaser (25:54):
The two books we've been talking about, How
Women Wise and Rising Together.
Of course you can find them inall the usual places. Again,
thank you so much, Sally.
Sally Helgesen (26:04):
Thank you. It's just been a pleasure to have
this conversation. Enjoyedevery minute and thank you
Julia.
The only thing I would say is I don't talk
about the benefit of the doubt.
I talk about giving others thebenefit of our goodwill.
Because it doesn't reallymatter whether our story is
true or not. Our default story,"I guess he doesn't have any
respect for me." Whatever itis, it doesn't matter. What
(00:21):
matters is that we find a wayto extend the benefit of our
goodwill. And in that storywhere the woman goes and says
to the guy, "Oh, I'm glad toknow that you agree with me on
that point," you are extendingthe benefit of your goodwill.
Not so much your doubt because,first of all, it's negative,
but it also means that you'resuspending doubt. It's
(00:43):
goodwill. And that is where thegrace part comes in.
Troy Blaser (00:50):
Hello and welcome to Simply Feedback. It's the
podcast brought to you byLearning Bridge . I'm your
host, Troy Blaser, and I'm gladto have you along with us
today. Now you may rememberthat in our last episode, our
guest was Sally Helgesen and wefocused primarily on a previous
book of Sally's called HowWomen Rise. For today's
episode, we are continuing thatconversation. We will be
(01:14):
discussing her latest bookRising Together. Now, if you
haven't listened to the lastepisode yet, I would encourage
you to check that one out. It'svery interesting. But again,
continuing with us for today'sepisode, we also have Julia
Einfeldt, who is a recentcollege graduate, just starting
out her career, and she hadsome questions for Sally. I had
(01:36):
some questions for Sally. Sothis is another great episode.
I hope you enjoy our continuingconversation with Sally
Helgesen. Sally, before we getinto some specific questions
about your latest book, RisingTogether: How We Can Bridge
Divides and Create a MoreInclusive Workplace, maybe can
you give our audience a quicksummary of the book, maybe
(01:56):
where it came from and what youwere trying to cover with it?
Sally Helgesen (01:59):
Yeah, very quickly, what I noticed was
that a lot of the organizationsthat I worked with that had
diversity initiatives were veryfocused on unconscious bias and
they were not sufficientlyfocused, in my view, on
behaviors, inclusive behaviors.
So what I set out to do was tolook at, to kind of identify
(02:21):
the habits that are most likelyto build inclusive cultures,
but also the habits that helpus as individuals to build
comfortable and effectiverelationships with people we
may perceive as being differentfrom ourselves. Gender,
(02:42):
ethnicity, race, religion.
There's so many divides now.
Sexual identity, age across thespectrum, what can help us
build those relationships? Veryimportant for teams and also as
noted earlier, very importantgiven the increasing diversity
of our workplaces.
Troy Blaser (03:04):
I liked that emphasis on behaviors and I'm
sure we'll talk about that aswe go along here. How would you
define inclusive leadership? Aswe think about that?
Sally Helgesen (03:13):
Inclusive leadership is really a leader
who skillfully cultivates aninclusive culture. And I would
define an inclusive culture asa culture in which the highest
possible percentage of peoplefeel a sense of belonging. And
we can tell this becausethey'll talk about the
(03:34):
organization as we not they. Soit's very easy to identify also
the highest percentage ofpeople feel valued for their
potential rather than just whatthey're actually contributing
at the moment. So they feelseen and recognized. And the
highest percentage of peoplealso feel that how they matter
(03:55):
is not just tied to the levelthat they're at in the
organization.
Troy Blaser (04:00):
I like that. So in rising together, you talk about
eight triggers that affect ourability to rise together. What
do you mean by triggers? As youtalk about those eight triggers
in the book,
Sally Helgesen (04:13):
Triggers are important because what I
recognized was it's easy toidentify inclusive behaviors,
but the reason that peopleoften may be aware of them but
not act on them is because theyfeel triggered in certain
situations. So triggers aresituations , uh, people, words
(04:34):
that there's something externalin the environment that stirs
an emotional reaction in us.
That's basically it. It's howwe respond to our external
environment because it stirssomething in us. And what we
usually do if we feel triggeredby something is we feel an
(04:56):
emotion. We feel anger, we feelrage, we feel discouraged, like
why does this keep happening?
Or , uh, sad, "Oh, I didn'tthink this person was a jerk,
but now I see they are,"whatever it is, we feel that.
And then we tend to tellourselves some kind of story to
justify how we feel, you know,"Oh , uh, people in this
(05:19):
organization just don't getit." Or fairness is a trigger.
Men have all the advantageshere, or women have all the
advantages here or whatever.
It's so we tell ourselves astory about it, but it doesn't
give us any kind of pathforward. It may be true, it may
not be true. It doesn't reallymatter. What matters is the
(05:40):
impact it has on us.
Troy Blaser (05:42):
That makes sense.
Yeah. It's not useful ifthere's no path forward, if
there's not a good way forward.
I wanted to read a paragraphfrom the book that I thought
was very interesting. "Theemphasis in universities in
recent years on encouragingpeople to shield themselves and
others from potential triggersdoes a huge disservice to
students who will soon findthemselves in a workplace where
(06:04):
the ability to deal with arange of people is expected and
required instead of shying awayfrom triggering situations,
avoiding potentially sensitiveencounters or lobbying
accusations. Every one of usneeds to build our awareness of
their impact so we can findserviceable ways to respond."
Has that stirred a reaction forgood or bad among readers of
(06:26):
the book, Sally?
Sally Helgesen (06:28):
I haven't seen much of a negative reaction,
which I know surprised mebecause I've heard from a lot
of academics and I thought theywould be outraged. But I think
it's gotten to a point where wedo see that this whole thing
trigger alert, trigger warning,the ability of students to
stand up in a classroom andsay, I feel triggered by this
(06:51):
conversation. And then walkingout of the classroom and maybe
someone filing a complaint.
That kind of situation, whichwe've seen really for about 15
years, it does not serveyounger people when they get
into the workplace because theydon't have that ability to be
able to say, "Oh, I don't likethis conversation. I feel
sensitive. This is stirringsomething in me." So I think
(07:13):
that at a formative period in ayoung person's life, they're
being encouraged often not tolearn, not to develop the
skills that they will need tobe able to address triggers.
And you get in the environment, uh, you get out in the
neighborhood, a community,yeah, you get into many, many
(07:34):
workplaces and it can be prettytough and people will say
things that you really don'tlike, but if you let those
things trigger you every timeor don't have a sense of
proportion, this constitutessexual harassment or just this
person speaks in an insultingway that really gets a reaction
(07:55):
from me. Those are verydifferent things. So if we
don't learn those skills, thenwe have no way to address them
and it doesn't serve us. Andthat's my concern. It doesn't
serve the younger people cominginto the workplace.
Troy Blaser (08:09):
Julia, what are your thoughts?
Julia Eindeldt (08:11):
You know, trigger is a big buzzword right
now. I feel like with youngergenerations, people more around
my age, it's something that youhear a lot. And one of the big
issues that I see with that is,"This triggered me, I'm going
to make it everybody else'sproblem now and everybody else
needs to change their behaviorbecause I don't like that."
Which as you were saying, itdoesn't serve us. It's not
(08:31):
helpful in academia and it'snot going to be helpful for the
rest of our lives. I thinkthere's a lack of personal
responsibility there. You can'tdecide how other people act.
You can only decide how youreact to that, but it's
something that I see a lot. SoI just kind of wonder what is a
better response when we feeltriggered? What are those
(08:52):
specific skills and habits thatwe can be developing to not
only not react in such anegative way and make it other
people's problem, but to becomebetter and improve ourselves in
spite of those things?
Sally Helgesen (09:04):
Wonderful, wonderful question. Here's what
I suggest. Here's what I havefound effective with the people
I've worked with. First of all,you want to identify when you
feel triggered. So you want toknow that, and that's an
important thing. "Oh, I see. Ifeel triggered in this
situation." So before you startspeaking about it, you realize,
(09:24):
what does that make me feel?
Angry, sad, upset, irritated,like I never want to see this
person again. Be honest aboutit. Whatever it makes you feel
you're feeling. So you want toknow that, then you want to
recognize that kind of what youwere saying. It's, we can't
control our environments and wecan't really even control our
(09:48):
responses if we feel punched inthe gut about something, that's
what we feel. But we cancontrol the narrative that we
use to explain what justhappened. This is a workplace
example. It's very common.
Again, been working in women'sleadership for 35 years now.
(10:08):
And uh, what I've seen, a womanwill be in a meeting, she'll
make a point, she'll raise asuggestion or an idea, nobody
acknowledges it. And then five,10 minutes later, a man,
usually at a higher level,we'll make the same point and
people will say, oh , what agreat idea. That's terrific.
(10:31):
And you feel really unseen. Youfeel disrespected. And what
people will often do is tellthemselves, "Okay, that guy
tried to steal my idea, orthese guys around here can't
hear anything from a woman'smouth. Might as well just keep
(10:51):
my mouth shut." So whateverthat story is, that story is
your responsibility. That'ssomething that you are telling
yourself in response. Andusually it leaves you three
paths , none of which areconstructive, inwardly fuming,
deciding you don't like thatperson. Grabbing a friend who
you believe will agree with youand complaining about what just
(11:14):
happened, or if you feel it wasegregious, lodging a complaint
about it. And it probably doesnot rise to that level, which
is what you describe as makingit everybody else's problem. A
great way of describing it.
Instead, you have the power tobe able to rewrite that
(11:35):
narrative and give yourself anexplanation that provides you
with a path forward. Here's anexample with what just
happened. You could go up tothe guy afterwards and say,
"Oh, I'm really glad you echoedmy idea. I'm glad to learn that
we think alike. Maybe we shouldmeet and talk about how we
(11:58):
could make this happen." Youcould do that in an email. If
in the moment you feel tooblindsided to be able to act
like that, what you are doingis you are giving yourself a
path forward . You couldcollaborate with this person on
something. If you don't, ifthat never happens, you've at
least reached out to thisperson and shown them that you
(12:23):
noticed what they said. By theway, you're also aware that you
said it, did they notice? Butyou're not putting it that way.
"Hey, I made that point beforeyou did." No, you're just
saying "Great point. I'm gladyou agree with me." And then
potentially it's the start ofsome kind of relationship that
(12:43):
you could build with thatperson. Even if nothing
positive happens at all, youhave practiced a more
constructive response to beingtriggered. And that is of great
value.
Julia Eindeldt (12:59):
That makes a lot of sense. I like that you
said too , we can't alwayscontrol our initial reaction.
It's okay to feel what we feel,but then going forward, the
narrative is huge. I feel likethat's something that I
definitely could work on a lotbecause it's so easy to get
stuck in a trap of like, thishappened because of this
reason, and then how women rise, that ruminating habit of, you
(13:20):
know, you just sit there andyou get yourself in a worse and
worse mood and the world's outto get you and everything is
the worst. It's not helpful.
And so just changing thenarrative around it to be
something productive, even ifnothing good comes out of it. I
think that's huge. I like thata lot.
Troy Blaser (13:37):
Sally, I really liked the way that you talked
about it becomes almost a formof grace that you can extend to
that individual because you'regiving them the benefit of the
doubt that they're notintentionally trying to
sideswipe you or undermine you.
And so by providing thisproductive way forward for
yourself, you're extendinggrace to that individual. That
really resonated for me as, oh,that sounds like something that
(13:59):
I, I want to be a person whoextends grace and hopefully
some in return. And this is away to be able to do that in a
small measure.
Sally Helgesen (14:07):
Exactly. Troy, the only thing I would say is I
don't talk about the benefit ofthe doubt. I talk about giving
others the benefit of ourgoodwill because it doesn't
really matter whether our storyis true or not, right ? Our
original story, our defaultstory, "I guess he doesn't have
any respect for me." Whateverit is, it doesn't matter. What
(14:31):
matters is that we find a wayto extend the benefit of our
goodwill and and that storywhere the woman goes and says
to the guy,"Oh, I'm glad toknow that you agree with me on
that point," you are extendingthe benefit of your goodwill,
not so much your doubt becausefirst of all it's negative, but
it also means that you'resuspending doubt. It's goodwill
(14:54):
and that is where the gracepart comes in I think.
Troy Blaser (14:58):
I like that. I wanted to go back a little bit
to this idea of the narrativethat others have of us at
Learning Bridge . We do a lotof 360 degree feedback and part
of the value of A 360 isunderstanding other people's
perceptions of youunderstanding that narrative
that they have about you as theperson receiving feedback. In
your chapter on managingperceptions, one of the themes
(15:20):
is that we can't pleaseeveryone and that changing to
try to do so can undermine ourability to thrive. Is there
some advice you can give usabout finding that balance
between managing what othersthink about us without over
managing or under managing?
We're kind of back to thatGoldilocks idea here.
Sally Helgesen (15:38):
We are yes, and certainly there are people who
under manage what people thinkabout them. The minute they
think somebody doesn't thinkthey're the most fabulous
person who ever lived, theydon't get it. They're a jerk.
Whatever, they dismiss it.
They're not going to adapttheir behavior. They're not
going to admit they didsomething wrong. They're not
going to admit that theyprovoked a person. It's the
(16:01):
other person's fault. Thosepeople are under managers.
There are other people who areover managers . And again,
having worked with a lot ofwomen, and Julia referenced
rumination, a lot of women tendto try to over manage people's
perceptions and they get veryinvested in making sure that
(16:22):
people at every point of theway are pleased and satisfied.
But it's not so much that youcan't make it happen, it's that
it often distracts you from theprimary thing you're trying to
do. We're trying to have aneffective team effort to
address a shortfall we've hadamong certain customers or
(16:46):
clients, or we've gottenfeedback that clients are
dissatisfied about something.
So the effective thing istrying to think of ways to
address that and that's whatour task is there. But if
you're an over manager ofpeople's perceptions, that's
one thing you're trying to do.
(17:06):
But the other thing you'retrying to do is worry . "Did I
say something wrong? Did Ioffend somebody? Is it neither
talking about, did I fallshort? Oh, maybe it was that
time that I forgot." Whateveryou're getting overly involved
in trying to make things betterin the quest to essentially
(17:32):
please other people. And that'sdistracting and it takes away
from your ability to bring alot of energy to finding a
solution. And it also, I wouldsuggest, weakens your ability
to represent yourself stronglyas a leader because you are
(17:54):
distracted from the task athand.
Troy Blaser (17:57):
Hmm . I really like that point, that idea of,
"Hey, the team is reallymeeting to accomplish this
goal. If we spend all of ourtime making sure that everyone
on the team is happy, then itcould be more difficult because
the energy is not going towardsthat objective." Another
interesting concept in the bookis that concept of authenticity
(18:18):
and being authentic to oneself.
Can you share with us how canstriving to be authentic affect
our ability to respond tofeedback?
Sally Helgesen (18:27):
Yes. I think it can have a real impact upon
that. Authenticity is awonderful thing, and I
completely understand why.
There's much discussion ofauthenticity now in
organizations. It's tied insome way to the diversity of
the workplace. People want tobe able to feel like they can
be who they are when they're atwork. Very important concept
(18:52):
all to the good. But we talkabout it so much. I think it
gives people the idea thatthey're being untrue to
themselves if they're notcompletely authentic in every
situation. Then in terms ofresponding to feedback, it can
make us defensive. It can makeus very defensive. "I can't
believe you would say that. Ifind that disrespectful," that
(19:14):
sort of thing. Or at leastwe're thinking that. So we're
dismissive of feedback becausewe feel that that's our
authentic response. We're justbeing ourselves. And you hear
this across every group, youknow, "I'm just telling it like
it is. I'm just telling it likeI see it. This is my
perspective, this is how I seethings." Well, that's nice,
(19:37):
that's wonderful and it's goodthat you know that. But in
feedback situations or a lot ofother workplace related
situations, you benefit bykeeping an open mind and
considering asking theimportant question, "How can I
(20:00):
do things better in thefuture?" It's one reason I love
Marshall's term feed forward .
It's not about let's go overand over and over what you did
before. Let's look at how youcould do this differently in
the future.
Troy Blaser (20:17):
In some ways, that idea of authenticity reminds me
of our conversation earlierabout triggers. And Julia, you
talked about, "I feel triggeredand now it's somebody else's
problem to fix for me." Right?
And maybe it's that sometimesour authenticity gets expressed
and if you don't like it,that's your problem to solve.
And it sounds like what you'resaying is, again, there's a
(20:38):
middle ground there, right?
Show up and be who you are, butfigure out how that fits in
with who everybody else is too, so that we're all working
together towards the commongoal of whatever the the team
is working on or the company.
Sally Helgesen (20:53):
Very good connection there. I think
between the authenticity, thatcommitment, I gotta be me, and
making the fact that you feeltriggered everybody else's
problem.
Troy Blaser (21:06):
Yeah. Trying to find that middle ground, I
suppose. Okay. So Julia hasasked a couple of questions.
This one is for me to ask andthat is, do you have some
advice for a male leader in anorganization? How can male
leaders contribute to fosteringa more inclusive environment?
Sally Helgesen (21:26):
Well, I think that part of the way in which
we haven't been well served byhow diversity broadly defined
has been done is that manypeople, especially male leaders
I find are overly focused ontheir own biases. And you want
to be aware of what those are.
That's important, but you'renot faded to act on them. So I
(21:49):
think identify number one,identifying a few inclusive
behaviors that would makepeople feel more appreciated,
recognized, and seen. Andyou'll find these out by asking
for feedback. Is theresomething you believe that I
could do in these meetings withthis team in my role as a
(22:14):
leader here? Is there somethingI could do that would help
people feel more like they're apart of? I noticed I heard the
other day some people talkingabout what we were doing and
they kept talking about ourcompany as they, you know,
well, they now want to theywant to do that. So that clued
(22:34):
me to think that we're fallinga little close on the inclusion
front. Is there anything youthink it would be helpful to
see me do now you're probablyasking somebody who's at a
lower status level or newer tothe organization than you. So
you want to be very, veryclear. You are telling me would
(22:55):
be very helpful to me. It wouldbe a big favor to me. Because
this isn't going to serve uswell so that you can sort of
make it more comfortable forthem to share and not feel like
they're criticizing the boss.
So I think that's a good way toget this started. There's
another step though. So youwant to identify those
(23:16):
inclusive behaviors that youthink will specifically help in
this situation. And then youwant to hold the people around
you accountable for acting onthem. You really do. This is
where the problem often arises.
The senior leader will get verycomfortable with the idea we're
(23:36):
an inclusive organization.
We've made commitment is tocreate an inclusive culture,
and then he or she is someonewho's not behaving inclusively.
So it has to be coming from youand it has to be coming from
those in positions of authorityand influence throughout the
organization.
Troy Blaser (23:57):
I really liked your emphasis on behaviors in
the book and you point out, andI think rightfully so, it's
going to feel awkward to dosome of these things. It's
going to feel at first, likeit's not the genuine you doing
these actions, but that willchange as you continue to do
them. You point out that it'sbecause you have existing
(24:18):
habits and as you do thesethings that are not the habit ,
they will feel quite unusual,quite awkward, perhaps maybe
not genuine, but as youcontinue to do them, they will
become the new habits and startto feel more natural to you.
Sally Helgesen (24:32):
Yeah, we all change over time. I mean, every
one of us can think back on anattitude that we held earlier
or a way that we acted towardpeople or were in the world
earlier that we're no longercomfortable with that wouldn't
serve us. So we don't have thisfixed identity as human beings.
(24:54):
And it's how we evolve. We lookat habits, we develop new ones
, we get comfortable with them.
They become part of ouroperating style.
Troy Blaser (25:06):
Well, Sally, I have thoroughly enjoyed this
conversation. If people want toknow more, are you open to
continuing the conversation?
What's the best way to get intouch with you?
Sally Helgesen (25:16):
Thank you for asking. I'm pretty easy to get
in touch with. My website is.
It's got a contact button thatgoes straight through to my
email, so I respond. The emailis and I'm on all the platforms
(25:36):
as Sally Helgesen. One thingI'm not great about is
responding to LinkedInmessages, so going through my
website usually is a betterbet.
Troy Blaser (25:46):
Super. And Julia, it's been great to have you as
a guest on our conversationtoday.
Julia Eindeldt (25:52):
Thanks. I'm happy to be here.
Troy Blaser (25:54):
The two books we've been talking about, How
Women Wise and Rising Together.
Of course you can find them inall the usual places. Again,
thank you so much, Sally.
Sally Helgesen (26:04):
Thank you. It's just been a pleasure to have
this conversation. Enjoyedevery minute and thank you
Julia.
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