September 4, 2024 • 37 mins
Robert Avinger shares insights on the critical role of intentional curiosity when receiving feedback, even when it’s challenging or poorly delivered. He recounts personal stories that illustrate the impact of feedback on his career, both positive and negative, emphasizing the importance of how we respond to it. The conversation also touches on his experience developing a career conversations toolkit and his transition to running his own consulting firm, Avinger Consulting, which focuses on fostering strong relationships within organizations.
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Episode Transcript
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Robert Avinger (00:01):
Could my manager have done a better job
of providing me with feedback?
Absolutely. It's still myresponsibility to really bring
a degree of intentionalcuriosity into that
conversation, learn as much asI can about the feedback that
was being provided so that Ican understand it and I can
(00:21):
ultimately do something aboutit. And so two things about
that. Intentional is aboutmaking a choice in the moment,
taking a breath, and thenmaking a choice that's
different from what may beautomatic. And then curiosity
is simply that notion ofwanting to know more, wanting
to learn as much as you canabout the feedback being
(00:43):
provided so you can understandit at a deeper level.
Troy Blaser (00:50):
Hello, welcome to Simply Feedback, the podcast
brought to you by LearningBridge . I'm your host, Troy
Blaser, and I am excited fortoday's conversation. We are
thrilled to have Robert Avingeras our guest. Robert is a
seasoned leadership talent andorganizational development
consultant and the president ofAvinger Consulting LLC. With
(01:11):
over 30 years of experience,Robert has been empowering
individuals and organizationsby fostering strong intentional
relationships that driveexceptional business outcomes.
He has previously held seniorleadership roles at
AllianceBernstein and TivityHealth, and is also deeply
involved in community serviceas the board chair of Senior
Ride Nashville. Robert, welcometo Simply Feedback is so great
(01:35):
to have you with us today.
Robert Avinger (01:36):
Thank you so much, Troy. I'm thrilled to be
here. Excited for theconversation.
Troy Blaser (01:41):
Yeah. We'll start with a question that we ask of
each of our guests, but Iwonder if you would tell us
about a time that somebody gaveyou feedback. Maybe it had an
impact on your career or yourpersonal life, but is there a
story that you could share withus?
Robert Avinger (01:54):
Absolutely Troy. There are actually quite
a few stories. I don't thinkthe podcast is long enough to
tell them all, but if it'sokay, maybe I'll share two. One
from the beginning of mycareer, very early in my
career, and one from a morerecent experience. So the early
one in my career, so I startedmy career as an instructor with
(02:15):
the North Carolina OutwardBound School. So for listeners
who may not be familiar withOutward Bound, it's a
wilderness based experientialeducation school where we would
take students into thewilderness with the intent and
purpose of personal growth anddevelopment as opposed to
survival skills, et cetera .
But that first summer that Iwas an instructor I led three
(02:36):
courses back to back 23 daycourses and a 23 day standard
course included kindabackpacking, rock climbing,
whitewater canoeing, communityservice, et cetera . And there
was a particular student, ayoung woman on one of my
courses who was challengedphysically to complete a lot of
the activities. And I wasreally diligent and intentional
(03:00):
in supporting her andchallenging her to lean on her
peers to help her navigate thechallenges that she was having.
And she ended up completing thecourse successfully. And it was
great. We went on and that fallI received out of the blue a
letter, it's a handwrittenletter from this young woman's
mother. And the feedback inthat letter was really
(03:24):
remarkable. It was a expressionof her appreciation for my role
in her daughter's experience onthat Outward Bound course and
the difference that it made notonly in her daughter's life,
but in the life of theirfamily. And it was incredibly
empowering for me to receivethat feedback. And certainly
(03:45):
affirming to me that I was onthe right path with what I was
choosing to do with my career.
And it really helped solidifymy intention and my aspirations
to do more of this kind of workin the personal development
realm, if you will. And I stillhave that letter. I pull it out
on tough days and I read it.
Troy Blaser (04:05):
Yeah.
Robert Avinger (04:05):
It's kind of reaffirming again. So that's a
piece of feedback that I got onthe early stage of my career
more recently, and kind of theother end of the spectrum, I
was at an internal corporaterole and it was during a
midyear review with my managerand my manager gave me some
feedback , uh, that was prettychallenging. And it was
(04:27):
feedback around the experienceof my peers on the HR team that
I was not collaborating. And infact I was the opposite of not
collaborating. I wasuncollaborative and it was
challenging feedback. And Itell the story because one of
the things that I really thinkis crucial to feedback, we talk
(04:49):
a lot about giving feedback andthe importance of giving it the
right way. Receiving feedback,I think is equally, if not more
important.
Troy Blaser (04:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
Robert Avinger (04:59):
And I did not receive that feedback well. So
I'll be a little bit vulnerablein the moment. I was frustrated
by it. I was quite angry aboutit . I got in defensive mode
and ultimately it actually did,in my view, as I look back on
it and reflect, it didirreparable damage to my
relationship with my manager.
(05:20):
And within a year I was nolonger at that company in that
job. And I think that was kindof an inflection point. My,
again, being vulnerable here,my inability to receive that
feedback in a really positiveway had some pretty significant
implications for my ability toperform well there, my
relationship with my managerand ultimately my tenure. So
(05:43):
anyway, two kind of alternatestories there about receiving
feedback.
Troy Blaser (05:49):
Such a great contrast. I mean, that first
story about receiving theletter from this young woman's
mother, number one, what agreat way to start you off.
Right? Like you said, veryaffirming in terms of what you
chose to do. It can be easy forpeople in general to overlook
the positive feedback to think,you know, they probably already
(06:10):
know that they did a good job.
I don't need to tell them that,but she took the time to send a
handwritten letter . And boy,that has made a difference for
you in all the years sincethen.
Robert Avinger (06:20):
You're spot on.
And I think that positivefeedback, that appreciation as
a form of feedback is somethingthat we often, we don't put
those two things in the sameconversation. Like we don't
consider them to be feedback.
So we often hold back on givingit.
Troy Blaser (06:37):
Yeah. And you were in your first year as an
instructor, I imagine therewere ups and downs to that and
to get that affirmation to say,okay, there may have been some
hard times, but you're doing agood job and you're definitely
influencing at at least thisperson. How long did you stay
at Outward Bound?
Robert Avinger (06:54):
All in basically three years.
Troy Blaser (06:56):
Oh, that's cool.
As a much younger man, I workedat a family camp for a local
university. Brigham YoungUniversity has a family camp up
in the mountains. It wasn'tnecessarily the kinds of
instruction that you were doingOutward Bound, but you know,
worked on the ropes course,high ropes, low ropes, a little
bit of that team building andthings like that. But just the
(07:17):
fact of spending so much timeoutdoors, we were up in the
mountains all summer long. Whata fantastic job. What a great
opportunity for you to be apart of Outward Bound as well.
Okay. So now thinking about theother end, the second story,
and like you said, thatimportance and the challenge of
receiving feedback graciouslythat can be so difficult. And
(07:38):
you probably had no idea thatthat could be a turning point
in terms of your career at thatparticular company just by
going in for that evaluationthat day.
Robert Avinger (07:47):
Absolutely. It was , um, it was surprising and
in the moment, unwelcomed. Andso it definitely had an impact
for sure.
Troy Blaser (07:57):
At this point. You may be glad for how your career
progressed, but if you were togive that self that version of
you some advice, looking back,what would you say?
Robert Avinger (08:06):
Well, it's interesting, Troy, A lot of my
career, especially over thelast 18 to 25 years or so, has
been in the space of leadershipdevelopment. And, I can't tell
you how many times I'veactually in workshops, in
developmental experiences, incoaching leaders, I've coached
them about the importance ofreceiving feedback graciously
(08:29):
and how to manage that in aproductive way. And yet when I
was faced with it myself,right, we're all human and we
all have this tendency to wantto self-protect and want to
take care of ourselves. Andthat triggered that defense
mechanism was immediatelyturned on for me. So it's
(08:49):
challenging. One of the thingsthat I often share with leaders
that I'm coaching or workingwith is I talk about this
notion of intentionalcuriosity. And if you can bring
a degree of intentionalcuriosity into a feedback
conversation, regardless of howthe feedback has been presented
(09:12):
to you. Now let me go back tomy story. Part of my defense
mechanism, or part of myjudgment of the feedback is I
judged my manager in thequality of the feedback that
she gave me. It wasn't timely,right. It was in my midyear
review, and the feedback thatshe was referencing was from
about four months earlier. Soit didn't tick the timely box.
(09:33):
Right. It didn't include realspecific tangible examples of
when I wasn't beingcollaborative, so it didn't
check that box. And it was alsowhat I would consider to be
triangulation. Right, so shewas providing feedback from
others on behalf of them . Allthat to say is, could my
(09:54):
manager have done a better jobof providing me with feedback?
Absolutely. It's still myresponsibility to really bring
a degree of intentionalcuriosity into that
conversation. Learn as much asI can about the feedback that
was being provided so that Ican understand it and I can
(10:14):
ultimately do something aboutit. And so two things about
that. Intentional is aboutmaking a choice in the moment.
Taking a breath and then makinga choice that's different from
what may be automatic. And thencuriosity is simply that notion
of wanting to know more,wanting to learn as much as you
can about the feedback beingprovided so you can understand
(10:37):
it at a deeper level. Sothinking back to my experience.
I should have broughtintentional curiosity to that
conversation, and I think itwould've changed a lot of
things about that. It would'vemaintained perhaps a stronger,
or maybe even strengthened myrelationship with my manager. I
would've understood kind of thenuances of my manager's
(11:00):
expectations from acollaboration standpoint. And
it certainly would've given mea way to interact with my peers
that could have been moreeffective and more productive.
Looking back on it, thefeedback was spot on. There
were several things that I haddone that absolutely were not
very collaborative in nature.
And so it was valid feedbackand had I brought intentional
(11:24):
curiosity to that, it would'vemade all the difference in the
world.
Troy Blaser (11:27):
Yeah. I like that idea. Intentional curiosity.
You said making a choice to beintentional. That can really be
a challenge because it soundslike your amygdala in your
brain got triggered and at thatpoint, it's kind of like a
runaway train. There's not muchyou can do about it until that
fight or flight sort of gets amoment to calm down. You're
counting to 10 or whatever itis, the more rational part of
(11:48):
your brain, your prefrontalcortex can come in and say,
okay, now let's ask somequestions. Now let's be curious
about this feedback and thingslike that.
Robert Avinger (11:58):
And I think when the feedback doesn't
necessarily align with the bestpractices of giving feedback,
you're that much more apt toreact, have the amygdala kinda
leading the way on thosereactions.
Troy Blaser (12:11):
Especially where you're in the, you have enough
knowledge to know that thefeedback is not being given in
the best way. So it's sort of,that's now a roadblock to you
receiving the feedback becauseyou're, well, you're not doing
it right. Do it. Right. Andthen I can receive it in the
right way. That's right. Well,I mean, I was going to ask you,
what are some of the biggestdifficulties you've seen
related to feedback? Maybethat's one of them, right? Is
(12:33):
just that when our own brainsget in our way with that fight
or flight response, when thefeedback comes,
Robert Avinger (12:39):
I think you're spot on. It is receiving
feedback and how you receivefeedback has lots of
implications beyond just thefeedback itself. It has
implications for therelationship with the person
giving you the feedback. It hasimplications for your own
awareness of how you're showingup for your team and for your
(12:59):
peers and and for the peoplethat you're working with. And
that basic human nature ofwanting to protect ourselves
can often get in our way ofreally receiving feedback in a
productive way. The otherchallenge, which we also
mentioned, equatingappreciation with feedback. And
truly sharing your appreciationfor someone and not just your
(13:22):
appreciation at a surfacelevel. Like, thank you for
leading the meeting today, butthank you for leading the
meeting today. Here's thedifference that that made to me
and the other participants. Soreally taking it at another
level is a really powerful andempowering form of feedback
(13:43):
that we often gloss over.
Troy Blaser (13:45):
I like that. Yeah.
Robert Avinger (13:46):
And so that's a challenge that I see with
feedback as well, is we justforget to share our
appreciation with people.
Troy Blaser (13:52):
That extra step of you provided leadership in the
meeting. Here's what happenedafter the meeting that maybe
you didn't see that you wouldappreciate knowing, or in the
case of an instructor, yes, youhad my daughter for 23 days,
but here's what happened aftershe came home that of course
you wouldn't have known about.
That's a useful way to thinkabout if I'm going to share
(14:13):
feedback. That's what is mostinteresting and maybe most
helpful is what happened thatyou weren't able to see. I
wanted to ask you about thisproject. So I guess while you
were at AllianceBernstein, youhelped to develop a career
conversations toolkit. Is thatright?
Robert Avinger (14:27):
That's correct, yes.
Troy Blaser (14:29):
Will you tell us a little bit about that toolkit?
What was the purpose or theobjective and maybe why you
decided to work on thatproject?
Robert Avinger (14:36):
Absolutely. It was a fun project to work on
how give credit where creditwas due and had a small team
that I led and the bulk of thework was generated by my team.
But you know, as mostorganizations do, we had an
engagement survey that we didevery year. In fact, twice a
year, where we were reallycanvassing the organization
(14:57):
around a set of questions tounderstand the engagement
levels of our employeepopulation. Not only the
engagement levels, but why theywere engaged or why they
weren't engaged. And over thecourse of a a number of
surveys, we began to see atheme, especially in the
comments. And oftentimes inthose surveys, the really juice
(15:18):
is found in the writtencomments that employees write.
But we found a theme,especially from our more
junior, younger professionals,that they were missing tools
and resources to help themthink about and navigate their
career, whether that career wasat AB or potentially led them
(15:40):
elsewhere. And so that led usto begin to think about, okay,
what are some resources andtools that we can give them all
based on the principle thateach individual owns their own
career. We don't as anorganization, have
responsibility for your careerdevelopment. You have
responsibility for your careerdevelopment as an employee and
as an individual.
Troy Blaser (16:01):
Your career exists outside of your job at this
company. Right.
Robert Avinger (16:05):
Exactly. Yes.
And what we do have aresponsibility for is to
provide opportunities to giveyou the resources and tools,
but you've gotta embrace thoseand use those. So we built this
toolkit and it began with apretty in-depth reflection
exercise where we led employeesthrough a reflection process
(16:26):
around reflecting on their pastexperiences, their current
strengths and opportunities andtheir future aspirations. And
then based on that, we wouldpoint them in certain
directions to go get resourcesand tools that they could tap
into to support navigating themmore in line with their
(16:47):
aspirations and where theywanted to go. And then we would
also give them feedback aroundwhere aspirations were maybe
misaligned with strengths. Andto say, okay, well that's great
you have that aspiration, butlet's have a further
conversation around how do wemaximize your strengths and how
does that potentially shiftyour aspirations based on that?
(17:08):
And that's a program or aprocess that's probably not
necessarily earth shattering.
It's probably something thatlots of organizations may have.
We actually took it a stepfurther, and I think this made
it differentiating, which is webuilt a complimentary toolkit
for the managers of thoseemployees to really give the
(17:28):
managers the resources andtools to have the right kind of
conversations with theiremployees about their career.
So part of the feedback wereceived in the engagement
survey was, my manager nevertalks to me about my career.
And that's an importantskillset and an important
responsibility that a managerhas not responsible for their
(17:52):
career, but to engage them inconversation, to encourage
them, empower them, and tocoach them on how to navigate
their careers. So we built thatcomplimentary toolkit for
managers and got lots of greatfeedback from managers about
how useful it was, and itreally gave them a sense of
comfort and a way to talk withtheir staff about their
(18:13):
careers. And I'll just say oneadditional thing about that
toolkit for the managers thatwas critical. A big piece of it
was really encouraging managersto change their mindset about
their team members. And what Imean by that is oftentimes
managers come into managingtheir team saying, I can't
(18:35):
afford to lose Troy. Mm-Hmm. Iflose Troy. I'm way behind the
eight ball. And so that mindsetof I can't afford to lose Troy
makes me not want to talk toyou about your career. Because
the risk is you're going to goget another job somewhere.
Troy Blaser (18:53):
Yeah. You don't want to seed that idea of, oh,
I, I should go somewhere elseor advance in my career.
Robert Avinger (18:59):
Exactly. So we began to shift that mindset for
managers. It's okay if yourteam members leave for another
job. We'd love for that job tobe at AllianceBernstein. And
let's keep them at the firm asopposed to losing them to
competition or to anotherorganization. But to loosen
that sense of protection ofyour team, I think was an
(19:23):
important mindset shift formanagers to , to make that was
part of that toolkit process.
Troy Blaser (19:28):
That's fantastic.
It's really cool to seedifferent ways that you
incorporated feedback. You hadthe employee engagement survey
that was giving your teamfeedback in terms of what tools
would be helpful, but then thekinds of feedback that the
employees were engaging in thereflection. And then to have
those conversations with theirmanager about their careers.
That's fantastic. I love that.
(19:49):
So I wanted to talk about yourconsulting firm . So great .
You spent almost 20 years insort of a corporate
environment, right? With acouple of different companies.
But now recently you started aconsulting firm, Avinger
Consulting. Tell me a littlebit about that decision. What
was that like? What do you seeas the advantages now working
in your own company? What kindsof problems are you able to
(20:12):
solve for others that maybe youweren't able to do in a
corporation?
Robert Avinger (20:15):
Yeah, great.
Thank you. So the processdecide about launching Avinger
Consulting was a wonderfulprocess. One that was lots of
reflection. I did some writingand I talked to a lot of people
and ultimately landed on thetiming is right. I think I have
(20:38):
something to offer that ispotentially unique and
differentiating and value addedfor organizations. And so
Avinger Consulting is a solepractitioner. It's just me.
Mm-Hmm. And it's rooted in thebelief, Troy, that
organizations are reallynothing more than a network of
relationships. In other words,an organization can have a
(21:01):
really great idea, a greatproduct, a great strategy to go
deliver that product or to sellthat idea. It can have really
smart people, it can have acomprehensive plan to go
execute on that strategy, etcetera. But if the
relationships within theorganization are suboptimal, or
even at worse dysfunctional,it's going to impact your
(21:24):
ability to achieve the kind ofresults that you want to
achieve. So where I think I canhelp is coming into an
organization and really helpingthat organization build a
systemic capability arounddeveloping, strengthening and
sustaining productiverelationships that systemic is
(21:47):
an intentional word. So it'sless about coming and fixing a
dysfunctional relationship.
Hey, Troy and Robert don'ttrust each other. They're
really fighting. They're, theydon't collaborate, et cetera,
et cetera. Fix them. I can dothat. But that's one
relationship in a network of ahundred , a thousand tens of
(22:08):
thousands of relationships thatexist even in a small
organization. So that's thebasic premise. How that gets
delivered is really throughthree channels. There's
executive coaching. So I workdirectly with executives to
kind of develop that mindsetaround a relationship
orientation. And then thebehaviors that come out of that
team building. So working withIntacct teams, cross-functional
(22:31):
teams, new teams, maybe teamsthat have been around for a
long time but have hit aplateau. Whatever the context
of that team, there'sopportunities to strengthen
relationships and buildcapabilities around
relationship building. And thenthe third area is when you
think about organizations of acertain size, most people in
that organization report into afrontline or mid-level manager.
(22:55):
And in my experience over thelast 20 plus years, working
inside organizations, thatcohort of leaders is often
underwater. They're being askedto produce individual results
and they're being asked tomanage a team. Oftentimes
they've never been trained onhow to manage a team. So
building leadership developmentexperiences for that cohort of
(23:18):
managers is that third kind ofchannel of delivery that I
think I can help organizationswith as they look to build that
relationship capability. Sothat's Avinger Consulting. It's
brand new. I just announced onLinkedIn in June of this year.
And it's been great. I love it.
I've got some good clients.
I've got a pretty healthypipeline and it's a lot of fun.
Troy Blaser (23:41):
I was going to ask, how is the transition from
working for corporation to thatentrepreneur on your own,
having to cover, maybe you'rehaving to wear a lot more hats
than you used to have to wear.
How's it going?
Robert Avinger (23:52):
It's going well. I've got, as I told
someone the other day, there'sa little bit of a low grade
anxiety about a lot of things.
But overcoming that low gradeanxiety is just general
excitement and having a goodtime and so far some success.
But you're right. Wearing lotsof hats. I've always had a bit
of an entrepreneurial spirit. Igot that from my dad. My dad
(24:13):
was a entrepreneur. He was inacademics for a while . He was
a PhD in economics and was aprofessor of economics at
Davidson College in NorthCarolina for a number of years.
But then got into the businessworld and was very supportive
of the entrepreneurial spirit.
Watching him and learning fromhim embedded that spirit in me
a bit. And it's , uh, I'vereally enjoyed it.
Troy Blaser (24:34):
An exciting new phase of your career, it sounds
like.
Robert Avinger (24:37):
And one of the things I will also say is I've
been overwhelmed by the supportfrom my network of colleagues,
from the jobs that I have hadover the last 20 to 25 years.
So really supportive andhelpful as I was talking to
them as part of that decisionmaking process that I
referenced, but also morerecently too. So it's been
(24:59):
great.
Troy Blaser (24:59):
That's neat. Well, kind of at the beginning of our
conversation, you shared acouple of stories about times
when you had received feedback.
I know in your career you'vehad a chance to coach others
and be a part of the feedbackprocess kind of from a third
person perspective. So I wantedto ask if there's an experience
or a time when you've seenfeedback cause a point of
(25:20):
inflection in someone else'scareer or someone else's life,
either for good or bad. Isthere a story there that you
could share with us?
Robert Avinger (25:27):
Lots of stories. We can go in a number
of different directions. Onethat comes to mind, and this
was a number of years ago, oneof my roles inside an
organization, I, I worked veryclosely with our executive
team, our c-suite team. And oneof the things that this c-suite
team engaged in was debate.
(25:48):
Right? And you hear the valueof healthy debate and good
conflict, et cetera. But therewere times where those
conversations would go off therails. In looking at those
experiences and kind ofwatching as someone responsible
for engaging with them andtrying to keep them on the
rails, it was wonderful to seehow they began to develop the
(26:13):
capability to give each otherfeedback around how to engage
in healthy debate. And therewas one person in particular,
he and I actually had lots ofgreat conversations and our
relationship started off kindof rocky, but through giving
each other really robustcomprehensive, productive
feedback, our relationship dida 180. And that also had an
(26:37):
impact on his relationship withothers. It was really
encouraging to see, and infact, he's moved on to other
experiences and he's actuallyin my pipeline for a possible
engagement. So it's , uh,coming full circle with that.
It was a really greatexperience just to see the
value of not holding back whenit would've been easy to hold
(27:00):
back. And not only the value ofsolving a problem in and of
itself, but the value that thathad on the trust and the
strength of the relationshipgoing forward. And it gave him
a new capability to use withthe rest of his peers. So it
was really, it's really helpfulto see. That's
Troy Blaser (27:18):
Cool. I guess I would say , uh, maybe here in
the United States, we could usebetter debate skills between ,
uh, you know, when you look atthe political scene today,
Robert Avinger (27:28):
No doubt, no doubt.
Troy Blaser (27:30):
Is there a book or a couple of books that have
significantly influenced youthat you would recommend to
others?
Robert Avinger (27:36):
Great question.
I'm just finishing up actuallyreading a book. It's the latest
book from Peter Block .
Troy Blaser (27:43):
Okay.
Robert Avinger (27:44):
He's kind of one of the elder statesmen of
the leadership development andorganizational development. A
really in depth thought leaderin this space. And he put out a
book last year, taking a lot ofthe content through what he's
learned from one of hislifelong mentors, a guy named
Peter Koestenbaum. The name ofthe book is Confronting Our
Freedom (28:05):
Leading a Culture of Chosen Accountability and
Belonging. It's not an easybook, right? It's not one of
those books that you can kindasit on the couch and read. I
had to sit at a tablehighlighter notebook. I had to
get into it. And it reallycaused a lot of reflection. And
in essence, it is a book aboutthis whole notion of freedom
(28:27):
and inside the context offreedom, looking at the
constructs of motivation andaccountability and how
oftentimes as managers we'reled to believe you have to
motivate an individual, or youhave to engage an individual,
or you have to hold someoneaccountable. And really this
book kind of turns that notiona little bit on its head to say
(28:49):
no. Each individual as a humanbeing has the freedom, right.
To choose being motivated or tochoose accountability or to
choose kind of responsibilityand engagement. And as
managers, our job is to createthe environment where it's
really easy for people to makethat choice. And it's, that
(29:10):
last part may not be a newconcept, but Block's book
really helps solidify thatnotion in terms of what
managers are responsible for. Alot of what we've been talking
about is the challenge ofreceiving feedback and this
whole notion of freedom. Whatdoes that mean in terms of how
(29:31):
we receive feedback? We canreceive feedback with that
intentional curiosity, thefreedom to really choose to
listen to that feedback in areally productive learning
development way. Or we canchoose to listen to that
feedback or receive thatfeedback in ways in which we
try to navigate around theenvironment. And so this whole
(29:54):
notion of freedom and that , inits title, Leading a Culture of
Chosen Accountability andBelonging. As a function of
confronting that freedom. It'sa really compelling and
thoughtful book that I'veenjoyed reading.
Troy Blaser (30:08):
I really like you pointing that out in that
mid-year evaluation. I thinkthe stereotype is that, well,
my manager's going to give mefeedback and I just have to
listen and do what my managersays to do. You know? But I
think you're pointing out, andI agree that no, you have a
choice first in how you receivethat feedback. And you can
choose to be intentional aboutit. It's not just preordained
(30:29):
that my manager says this andI'm going to have to do it no
matter what it is. But there isthat choice involved, and I
really like that idea, thatconcept. So you've just started
Avinger Consulting. Are thereany projects that you're
working on that you'reespecially passionate about
right now that you want toshare with us?
Robert Avinger (30:48):
One of the things that seems to be coming
up in a lot of theconversations that I'm having
with my network is the problemthat organizations are having
around onboarding managers. Soorganizations may be in a
period of hiring up based onhaving a new contract or
growth, et cetera . And withthat comes the need to hire new
(31:10):
managers, whether those areinternal hires where people are
getting promoted or hiringexternally. And it goes back to
this whole notion of generallythese managers are frontline
kind of new managers. And howdo organizations spend the time
(31:31):
on the front end to reallyorient them and onboard them
into the culture of theorganization where they are
leading their teams inalignment to the expectations
that the organizations hasaround leadership. And a lot of
organizations don't have theresources or tools to do that,
(31:54):
or the time really they'rerunning and gunning and they've
gotta deliver to clientcommitments, et cetera. And so
six months in a manager looksup and says, gosh, I don't, I
don't even know how to go aboutdoing what I'm doing.
Troy Blaser (32:07):
I've been doing this job for six months and I
don't even know what I'm doingyet .
Robert Avinger (32:10):
Exactly.
Exactly. So investing in anonboarding program that is more
than just your typicaltransactional onboarding
program, but really kind ofdigs into what it means to lead
your team, how to lead yourteam . And then I think the
other piece that happens withit that I'm really excited
(32:32):
about, and it goes back to thepremise of my consulting
practice, is all of a suddenyou've got this peer group of
managers who have a reallystrong relationship with one
another and can lean on oneanother and help one another
and challenge one another intheir roles as managers. And so
beginning to wade into a littlebit of a design process around
(32:53):
what does that manageronboarding program look like
and how might it be a value addto organizations that are
facing the challenges of how dowe bring new managers in, in a
way that really engages them ,secures their longer tenure,
and ultimately has an impact onthe teams that they lead as
well.
Troy Blaser (33:13):
You mentioned this has come up for you a few
different times now in yourwork. Do you have a sense about
why this is sort of a recurringtheme right now
Robert Avinger (33:21):
In talking to organizations it is a concern
about turnover and the impactthat turnover has on an
organization, and how can weaddress turnover from the very
beginning? So that's one piece.
The other is a realization thatoftentimes managers are, and
(33:44):
I'll say it this way, they'rein over their head, and I don't
mean that they're not capable.
But it means they're underwaterwith the amount of pressure and
the volume of responsibilitiesthat we've given them without
the development that comesalong with it. So it's really a
recognition that we need to doa better job of developing our
(34:05):
managers. And a great place tostart is when they're brand
new. I think that's reallywhere it's coming from.
Troy Blaser (34:11):
Yeah. When they're brand new is probably when they
need the help the most.
Robert Avinger (34:14):
Exactly. And one of the impacts of that is
the engagement of thosemanagers. Like the appreciation
that comes along with, oh, wow,you're investing in me. You
care about my development andmy growth. I really like this
place. I'm going to stay hereand really dig in and do my
best work. So it's good.
Troy Blaser (34:33):
I'm , I'm going to choose to stay here.
Robert Avinger (34:35):
Exactly.
Troy Blaser (34:36):
Well, Robert, I really appreciate the
conversation that we've had.
We're kind of reaching the endof our time, but if people want
to know more, if they want toconnect with you, is that
something you're open to? Andhow would you recommend that
they do that?
Robert Avinger (34:49):
Absolutely. I'm always interested in networking
and building relationships.
Right. Relationships are whereit's at. So you can find me on
LinkedIn, Robert Avinger, andI'm based in Nashville,
Tennessee. I think there are acouple of Robert Avinger out
there, but I'm the one inNashville. And then my website
for my consulting practice is.
(35:10):
My email address is on there.
I've got a a way that you canget in touch with me on the
website and I would love tohear from you.
Troy Blaser (35:16):
Fantastic. Well, thank you again. This has been
an interesting conversation.
I've really enjoyed getting toknow you a little bit and the
things that we've been able totalk about today.
Robert Avinger (35:25):
Likewise, Troy, this has been, this has been a
lot of fun telling somestories, and I really
appreciate you all inviting meto participate. Thank you very
much. Good to get to know youas well.
Could my manager have done a better job
of providing me with feedback?
Absolutely. It's still myresponsibility to really bring
a degree of intentionalcuriosity into that
conversation, learn as much asI can about the feedback that
was being provided so that Ican understand it and I can
(00:21):
ultimately do something aboutit. And so two things about
that. Intentional is aboutmaking a choice in the moment,
taking a breath, and thenmaking a choice that's
different from what may beautomatic. And then curiosity
is simply that notion ofwanting to know more, wanting
to learn as much as you canabout the feedback being
(00:43):
provided so you can understandit at a deeper level.
Troy Blaser (00:50):
Hello, welcome to Simply Feedback, the podcast
brought to you by LearningBridge . I'm your host, Troy
Blaser, and I am excited fortoday's conversation. We are
thrilled to have Robert Avingeras our guest. Robert is a
seasoned leadership talent andorganizational development
consultant and the president ofAvinger Consulting LLC. With
(01:11):
over 30 years of experience,Robert has been empowering
individuals and organizationsby fostering strong intentional
relationships that driveexceptional business outcomes.
He has previously held seniorleadership roles at
AllianceBernstein and TivityHealth, and is also deeply
involved in community serviceas the board chair of Senior
Ride Nashville. Robert, welcometo Simply Feedback is so great
(01:35):
to have you with us today.
Robert Avinger (01:36):
Thank you so much, Troy. I'm thrilled to be
here. Excited for theconversation.
Troy Blaser (01:41):
Yeah. We'll start with a question that we ask of
each of our guests, but Iwonder if you would tell us
about a time that somebody gaveyou feedback. Maybe it had an
impact on your career or yourpersonal life, but is there a
story that you could share withus?
Robert Avinger (01:54):
Absolutely Troy. There are actually quite
a few stories. I don't thinkthe podcast is long enough to
tell them all, but if it'sokay, maybe I'll share two. One
from the beginning of mycareer, very early in my
career, and one from a morerecent experience. So the early
one in my career, so I startedmy career as an instructor with
(02:15):
the North Carolina OutwardBound School. So for listeners
who may not be familiar withOutward Bound, it's a
wilderness based experientialeducation school where we would
take students into thewilderness with the intent and
purpose of personal growth anddevelopment as opposed to
survival skills, et cetera .
But that first summer that Iwas an instructor I led three
(02:36):
courses back to back 23 daycourses and a 23 day standard
course included kindabackpacking, rock climbing,
whitewater canoeing, communityservice, et cetera . And there
was a particular student, ayoung woman on one of my
courses who was challengedphysically to complete a lot of
the activities. And I wasreally diligent and intentional
(03:00):
in supporting her andchallenging her to lean on her
peers to help her navigate thechallenges that she was having.
And she ended up completing thecourse successfully. And it was
great. We went on and that fallI received out of the blue a
letter, it's a handwrittenletter from this young woman's
mother. And the feedback inthat letter was really
(03:24):
remarkable. It was a expressionof her appreciation for my role
in her daughter's experience onthat Outward Bound course and
the difference that it made notonly in her daughter's life,
but in the life of theirfamily. And it was incredibly
empowering for me to receivethat feedback. And certainly
(03:45):
affirming to me that I was onthe right path with what I was
choosing to do with my career.
And it really helped solidifymy intention and my aspirations
to do more of this kind of workin the personal development
realm, if you will. And I stillhave that letter. I pull it out
on tough days and I read it.
Troy Blaser (04:05):
Yeah.
Robert Avinger (04:05):
It's kind of reaffirming again. So that's a
piece of feedback that I got onthe early stage of my career
more recently, and kind of theother end of the spectrum, I
was at an internal corporaterole and it was during a
midyear review with my managerand my manager gave me some
feedback , uh, that was prettychallenging. And it was
(04:27):
feedback around the experienceof my peers on the HR team that
I was not collaborating. And infact I was the opposite of not
collaborating. I wasuncollaborative and it was
challenging feedback. And Itell the story because one of
the things that I really thinkis crucial to feedback, we talk
(04:49):
a lot about giving feedback andthe importance of giving it the
right way. Receiving feedback,I think is equally, if not more
important.
Troy Blaser (04:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
Robert Avinger (04:59):
And I did not receive that feedback well. So
I'll be a little bit vulnerablein the moment. I was frustrated
by it. I was quite angry aboutit . I got in defensive mode
and ultimately it actually did,in my view, as I look back on
it and reflect, it didirreparable damage to my
relationship with my manager.
(05:20):
And within a year I was nolonger at that company in that
job. And I think that was kindof an inflection point. My,
again, being vulnerable here,my inability to receive that
feedback in a really positiveway had some pretty significant
implications for my ability toperform well there, my
relationship with my managerand ultimately my tenure. So
(05:43):
anyway, two kind of alternatestories there about receiving
feedback.
Troy Blaser (05:49):
Such a great contrast. I mean, that first
story about receiving theletter from this young woman's
mother, number one, what agreat way to start you off.
Right? Like you said, veryaffirming in terms of what you
chose to do. It can be easy forpeople in general to overlook
the positive feedback to think,you know, they probably already
(06:10):
know that they did a good job.
I don't need to tell them that,but she took the time to send a
handwritten letter . And boy,that has made a difference for
you in all the years sincethen.
Robert Avinger (06:20):
You're spot on.
And I think that positivefeedback, that appreciation as
a form of feedback is somethingthat we often, we don't put
those two things in the sameconversation. Like we don't
consider them to be feedback.
So we often hold back on givingit.
Troy Blaser (06:37):
Yeah. And you were in your first year as an
instructor, I imagine therewere ups and downs to that and
to get that affirmation to say,okay, there may have been some
hard times, but you're doing agood job and you're definitely
influencing at at least thisperson. How long did you stay
at Outward Bound?
Robert Avinger (06:54):
All in basically three years.
Troy Blaser (06:56):
Oh, that's cool.
As a much younger man, I workedat a family camp for a local
university. Brigham YoungUniversity has a family camp up
in the mountains. It wasn'tnecessarily the kinds of
instruction that you were doingOutward Bound, but you know,
worked on the ropes course,high ropes, low ropes, a little
bit of that team building andthings like that. But just the
(07:17):
fact of spending so much timeoutdoors, we were up in the
mountains all summer long. Whata fantastic job. What a great
opportunity for you to be apart of Outward Bound as well.
Okay. So now thinking about theother end, the second story,
and like you said, thatimportance and the challenge of
receiving feedback graciouslythat can be so difficult. And
(07:38):
you probably had no idea thatthat could be a turning point
in terms of your career at thatparticular company just by
going in for that evaluationthat day.
Robert Avinger (07:47):
Absolutely. It was , um, it was surprising and
in the moment, unwelcomed. Andso it definitely had an impact
for sure.
Troy Blaser (07:57):
At this point. You may be glad for how your career
progressed, but if you were togive that self that version of
you some advice, looking back,what would you say?
Robert Avinger (08:06):
Well, it's interesting, Troy, A lot of my
career, especially over thelast 18 to 25 years or so, has
been in the space of leadershipdevelopment. And, I can't tell
you how many times I'veactually in workshops, in
developmental experiences, incoaching leaders, I've coached
them about the importance ofreceiving feedback graciously
(08:29):
and how to manage that in aproductive way. And yet when I
was faced with it myself,right, we're all human and we
all have this tendency to wantto self-protect and want to
take care of ourselves. Andthat triggered that defense
mechanism was immediatelyturned on for me. So it's
(08:49):
challenging. One of the thingsthat I often share with leaders
that I'm coaching or workingwith is I talk about this
notion of intentionalcuriosity. And if you can bring
a degree of intentionalcuriosity into a feedback
conversation, regardless of howthe feedback has been presented
(09:12):
to you. Now let me go back tomy story. Part of my defense
mechanism, or part of myjudgment of the feedback is I
judged my manager in thequality of the feedback that
she gave me. It wasn't timely,right. It was in my midyear
review, and the feedback thatshe was referencing was from
about four months earlier. Soit didn't tick the timely box.
(09:33):
Right. It didn't include realspecific tangible examples of
when I wasn't beingcollaborative, so it didn't
check that box. And it was alsowhat I would consider to be
triangulation. Right, so shewas providing feedback from
others on behalf of them . Allthat to say is, could my
(09:54):
manager have done a better jobof providing me with feedback?
Absolutely. It's still myresponsibility to really bring
a degree of intentionalcuriosity into that
conversation. Learn as much asI can about the feedback that
was being provided so that Ican understand it and I can
(10:14):
ultimately do something aboutit. And so two things about
that. Intentional is aboutmaking a choice in the moment.
Taking a breath and then makinga choice that's different from
what may be automatic. And thencuriosity is simply that notion
of wanting to know more,wanting to learn as much as you
can about the feedback beingprovided so you can understand
(10:37):
it at a deeper level. Sothinking back to my experience.
I should have broughtintentional curiosity to that
conversation, and I think itwould've changed a lot of
things about that. It would'vemaintained perhaps a stronger,
or maybe even strengthened myrelationship with my manager. I
would've understood kind of thenuances of my manager's
(11:00):
expectations from acollaboration standpoint. And
it certainly would've given mea way to interact with my peers
that could have been moreeffective and more productive.
Looking back on it, thefeedback was spot on. There
were several things that I haddone that absolutely were not
very collaborative in nature.
And so it was valid feedbackand had I brought intentional
(11:24):
curiosity to that, it would'vemade all the difference in the
world.
Troy Blaser (11:27):
Yeah. I like that idea. Intentional curiosity.
You said making a choice to beintentional. That can really be
a challenge because it soundslike your amygdala in your
brain got triggered and at thatpoint, it's kind of like a
runaway train. There's not muchyou can do about it until that
fight or flight sort of gets amoment to calm down. You're
counting to 10 or whatever itis, the more rational part of
(11:48):
your brain, your prefrontalcortex can come in and say,
okay, now let's ask somequestions. Now let's be curious
about this feedback and thingslike that.
Robert Avinger (11:58):
And I think when the feedback doesn't
necessarily align with the bestpractices of giving feedback,
you're that much more apt toreact, have the amygdala kinda
leading the way on thosereactions.
Troy Blaser (12:11):
Especially where you're in the, you have enough
knowledge to know that thefeedback is not being given in
the best way. So it's sort of,that's now a roadblock to you
receiving the feedback becauseyou're, well, you're not doing
it right. Do it. Right. Andthen I can receive it in the
right way. That's right. Well,I mean, I was going to ask you,
what are some of the biggestdifficulties you've seen
related to feedback? Maybethat's one of them, right? Is
(12:33):
just that when our own brainsget in our way with that fight
or flight response, when thefeedback comes,
Robert Avinger (12:39):
I think you're spot on. It is receiving
feedback and how you receivefeedback has lots of
implications beyond just thefeedback itself. It has
implications for therelationship with the person
giving you the feedback. It hasimplications for your own
awareness of how you're showingup for your team and for your
(12:59):
peers and and for the peoplethat you're working with. And
that basic human nature ofwanting to protect ourselves
can often get in our way ofreally receiving feedback in a
productive way. The otherchallenge, which we also
mentioned, equatingappreciation with feedback. And
truly sharing your appreciationfor someone and not just your
(13:22):
appreciation at a surfacelevel. Like, thank you for
leading the meeting today, butthank you for leading the
meeting today. Here's thedifference that that made to me
and the other participants. Soreally taking it at another
level is a really powerful andempowering form of feedback
(13:43):
that we often gloss over.
Troy Blaser (13:45):
I like that. Yeah.
Robert Avinger (13:46):
And so that's a challenge that I see with
feedback as well, is we justforget to share our
appreciation with people.
Troy Blaser (13:52):
That extra step of you provided leadership in the
meeting. Here's what happenedafter the meeting that maybe
you didn't see that you wouldappreciate knowing, or in the
case of an instructor, yes, youhad my daughter for 23 days,
but here's what happened aftershe came home that of course
you wouldn't have known about.
That's a useful way to thinkabout if I'm going to share
(14:13):
feedback. That's what is mostinteresting and maybe most
helpful is what happened thatyou weren't able to see. I
wanted to ask you about thisproject. So I guess while you
were at AllianceBernstein, youhelped to develop a career
conversations toolkit. Is thatright?
Robert Avinger (14:27):
That's correct, yes.
Troy Blaser (14:29):
Will you tell us a little bit about that toolkit?
What was the purpose or theobjective and maybe why you
decided to work on thatproject?
Robert Avinger (14:36):
Absolutely. It was a fun project to work on
how give credit where creditwas due and had a small team
that I led and the bulk of thework was generated by my team.
But you know, as mostorganizations do, we had an
engagement survey that we didevery year. In fact, twice a
year, where we were reallycanvassing the organization
(14:57):
around a set of questions tounderstand the engagement
levels of our employeepopulation. Not only the
engagement levels, but why theywere engaged or why they
weren't engaged. And over thecourse of a a number of
surveys, we began to see atheme, especially in the
comments. And oftentimes inthose surveys, the really juice
(15:18):
is found in the writtencomments that employees write.
But we found a theme,especially from our more
junior, younger professionals,that they were missing tools
and resources to help themthink about and navigate their
career, whether that career wasat AB or potentially led them
(15:40):
elsewhere. And so that led usto begin to think about, okay,
what are some resources andtools that we can give them all
based on the principle thateach individual owns their own
career. We don't as anorganization, have
responsibility for your careerdevelopment. You have
responsibility for your careerdevelopment as an employee and
as an individual.
Troy Blaser (16:01):
Your career exists outside of your job at this
company. Right.
Robert Avinger (16:05):
Exactly. Yes.
And what we do have aresponsibility for is to
provide opportunities to giveyou the resources and tools,
but you've gotta embrace thoseand use those. So we built this
toolkit and it began with apretty in-depth reflection
exercise where we led employeesthrough a reflection process
(16:26):
around reflecting on their pastexperiences, their current
strengths and opportunities andtheir future aspirations. And
then based on that, we wouldpoint them in certain
directions to go get resourcesand tools that they could tap
into to support navigating themmore in line with their
(16:47):
aspirations and where theywanted to go. And then we would
also give them feedback aroundwhere aspirations were maybe
misaligned with strengths. Andto say, okay, well that's great
you have that aspiration, butlet's have a further
conversation around how do wemaximize your strengths and how
does that potentially shiftyour aspirations based on that?
(17:08):
And that's a program or aprocess that's probably not
necessarily earth shattering.
It's probably something thatlots of organizations may have.
We actually took it a stepfurther, and I think this made
it differentiating, which is webuilt a complimentary toolkit
for the managers of thoseemployees to really give the
(17:28):
managers the resources andtools to have the right kind of
conversations with theiremployees about their career.
So part of the feedback wereceived in the engagement
survey was, my manager nevertalks to me about my career.
And that's an importantskillset and an important
responsibility that a managerhas not responsible for their
(17:52):
career, but to engage them inconversation, to encourage
them, empower them, and tocoach them on how to navigate
their careers. So we built thatcomplimentary toolkit for
managers and got lots of greatfeedback from managers about
how useful it was, and itreally gave them a sense of
comfort and a way to talk withtheir staff about their
(18:13):
careers. And I'll just say oneadditional thing about that
toolkit for the managers thatwas critical. A big piece of it
was really encouraging managersto change their mindset about
their team members. And what Imean by that is oftentimes
managers come into managingtheir team saying, I can't
(18:35):
afford to lose Troy. Mm-Hmm. Iflose Troy. I'm way behind the
eight ball. And so that mindsetof I can't afford to lose Troy
makes me not want to talk toyou about your career. Because
the risk is you're going to goget another job somewhere.
Troy Blaser (18:53):
Yeah. You don't want to seed that idea of, oh,
I, I should go somewhere elseor advance in my career.
Robert Avinger (18:59):
Exactly. So we began to shift that mindset for
managers. It's okay if yourteam members leave for another
job. We'd love for that job tobe at AllianceBernstein. And
let's keep them at the firm asopposed to losing them to
competition or to anotherorganization. But to loosen
that sense of protection ofyour team, I think was an
(19:23):
important mindset shift formanagers to , to make that was
part of that toolkit process.
Troy Blaser (19:28):
That's fantastic.
It's really cool to seedifferent ways that you
incorporated feedback. You hadthe employee engagement survey
that was giving your teamfeedback in terms of what tools
would be helpful, but then thekinds of feedback that the
employees were engaging in thereflection. And then to have
those conversations with theirmanager about their careers.
That's fantastic. I love that.
(19:49):
So I wanted to talk about yourconsulting firm . So great .
You spent almost 20 years insort of a corporate
environment, right? With acouple of different companies.
But now recently you started aconsulting firm, Avinger
Consulting. Tell me a littlebit about that decision. What
was that like? What do you seeas the advantages now working
in your own company? What kindsof problems are you able to
(20:12):
solve for others that maybe youweren't able to do in a
corporation?
Robert Avinger (20:15):
Yeah, great.
Thank you. So the processdecide about launching Avinger
Consulting was a wonderfulprocess. One that was lots of
reflection. I did some writingand I talked to a lot of people
and ultimately landed on thetiming is right. I think I have
(20:38):
something to offer that ispotentially unique and
differentiating and value addedfor organizations. And so
Avinger Consulting is a solepractitioner. It's just me.
Mm-Hmm. And it's rooted in thebelief, Troy, that
organizations are reallynothing more than a network of
relationships. In other words,an organization can have a
(21:01):
really great idea, a greatproduct, a great strategy to go
deliver that product or to sellthat idea. It can have really
smart people, it can have acomprehensive plan to go
execute on that strategy, etcetera. But if the
relationships within theorganization are suboptimal, or
even at worse dysfunctional,it's going to impact your
(21:24):
ability to achieve the kind ofresults that you want to
achieve. So where I think I canhelp is coming into an
organization and really helpingthat organization build a
systemic capability arounddeveloping, strengthening and
sustaining productiverelationships that systemic is
(21:47):
an intentional word. So it'sless about coming and fixing a
dysfunctional relationship.
Hey, Troy and Robert don'ttrust each other. They're
really fighting. They're, theydon't collaborate, et cetera,
et cetera. Fix them. I can dothat. But that's one
relationship in a network of ahundred , a thousand tens of
(22:08):
thousands of relationships thatexist even in a small
organization. So that's thebasic premise. How that gets
delivered is really throughthree channels. There's
executive coaching. So I workdirectly with executives to
kind of develop that mindsetaround a relationship
orientation. And then thebehaviors that come out of that
team building. So working withIntacct teams, cross-functional
(22:31):
teams, new teams, maybe teamsthat have been around for a
long time but have hit aplateau. Whatever the context
of that team, there'sopportunities to strengthen
relationships and buildcapabilities around
relationship building. And thenthe third area is when you
think about organizations of acertain size, most people in
that organization report into afrontline or mid-level manager.
(22:55):
And in my experience over thelast 20 plus years, working
inside organizations, thatcohort of leaders is often
underwater. They're being askedto produce individual results
and they're being asked tomanage a team. Oftentimes
they've never been trained onhow to manage a team. So
building leadership developmentexperiences for that cohort of
(23:18):
managers is that third kind ofchannel of delivery that I
think I can help organizationswith as they look to build that
relationship capability. Sothat's Avinger Consulting. It's
brand new. I just announced onLinkedIn in June of this year.
And it's been great. I love it.
I've got some good clients.
I've got a pretty healthypipeline and it's a lot of fun.
Troy Blaser (23:41):
I was going to ask, how is the transition from
working for corporation to thatentrepreneur on your own,
having to cover, maybe you'rehaving to wear a lot more hats
than you used to have to wear.
How's it going?
Robert Avinger (23:52):
It's going well. I've got, as I told
someone the other day, there'sa little bit of a low grade
anxiety about a lot of things.
But overcoming that low gradeanxiety is just general
excitement and having a goodtime and so far some success.
But you're right. Wearing lotsof hats. I've always had a bit
of an entrepreneurial spirit. Igot that from my dad. My dad
(24:13):
was a entrepreneur. He was inacademics for a while . He was
a PhD in economics and was aprofessor of economics at
Davidson College in NorthCarolina for a number of years.
But then got into the businessworld and was very supportive
of the entrepreneurial spirit.
Watching him and learning fromhim embedded that spirit in me
a bit. And it's , uh, I'vereally enjoyed it.
Troy Blaser (24:34):
An exciting new phase of your career, it sounds
like.
Robert Avinger (24:37):
And one of the things I will also say is I've
been overwhelmed by the supportfrom my network of colleagues,
from the jobs that I have hadover the last 20 to 25 years.
So really supportive andhelpful as I was talking to
them as part of that decisionmaking process that I
referenced, but also morerecently too. So it's been
(24:59):
great.
Troy Blaser (24:59):
That's neat. Well, kind of at the beginning of our
conversation, you shared acouple of stories about times
when you had received feedback.
I know in your career you'vehad a chance to coach others
and be a part of the feedbackprocess kind of from a third
person perspective. So I wantedto ask if there's an experience
or a time when you've seenfeedback cause a point of
(25:20):
inflection in someone else'scareer or someone else's life,
either for good or bad. Isthere a story there that you
could share with us?
Robert Avinger (25:27):
Lots of stories. We can go in a number
of different directions. Onethat comes to mind, and this
was a number of years ago, oneof my roles inside an
organization, I, I worked veryclosely with our executive
team, our c-suite team. And oneof the things that this c-suite
team engaged in was debate.
(25:48):
Right? And you hear the valueof healthy debate and good
conflict, et cetera. But therewere times where those
conversations would go off therails. In looking at those
experiences and kind ofwatching as someone responsible
for engaging with them andtrying to keep them on the
rails, it was wonderful to seehow they began to develop the
(26:13):
capability to give each otherfeedback around how to engage
in healthy debate. And therewas one person in particular,
he and I actually had lots ofgreat conversations and our
relationship started off kindof rocky, but through giving
each other really robustcomprehensive, productive
feedback, our relationship dida 180. And that also had an
(26:37):
impact on his relationship withothers. It was really
encouraging to see, and infact, he's moved on to other
experiences and he's actuallyin my pipeline for a possible
engagement. So it's , uh,coming full circle with that.
It was a really greatexperience just to see the
value of not holding back whenit would've been easy to hold
(27:00):
back. And not only the value ofsolving a problem in and of
itself, but the value that thathad on the trust and the
strength of the relationshipgoing forward. And it gave him
a new capability to use withthe rest of his peers. So it
was really, it's really helpfulto see. That's
Troy Blaser (27:18):
Cool. I guess I would say , uh, maybe here in
the United States, we could usebetter debate skills between ,
uh, you know, when you look atthe political scene today,
Robert Avinger (27:28):
No doubt, no doubt.
Troy Blaser (27:30):
Is there a book or a couple of books that have
significantly influenced youthat you would recommend to
others?
Robert Avinger (27:36):
Great question.
I'm just finishing up actuallyreading a book. It's the latest
book from Peter Block .
Troy Blaser (27:43):
Okay.
Robert Avinger (27:44):
He's kind of one of the elder statesmen of
the leadership development andorganizational development. A
really in depth thought leaderin this space. And he put out a
book last year, taking a lot ofthe content through what he's
learned from one of hislifelong mentors, a guy named
Peter Koestenbaum. The name ofthe book is Confronting Our
Freedom (28:05):
Leading a Culture of Chosen Accountability and
Belonging. It's not an easybook, right? It's not one of
those books that you can kindasit on the couch and read. I
had to sit at a tablehighlighter notebook. I had to
get into it. And it reallycaused a lot of reflection. And
in essence, it is a book aboutthis whole notion of freedom
(28:27):
and inside the context offreedom, looking at the
constructs of motivation andaccountability and how
oftentimes as managers we'reled to believe you have to
motivate an individual, or youhave to engage an individual,
or you have to hold someoneaccountable. And really this
book kind of turns that notiona little bit on its head to say
(28:49):
no. Each individual as a humanbeing has the freedom, right.
To choose being motivated or tochoose accountability or to
choose kind of responsibilityand engagement. And as
managers, our job is to createthe environment where it's
really easy for people to makethat choice. And it's, that
(29:10):
last part may not be a newconcept, but Block's book
really helps solidify thatnotion in terms of what
managers are responsible for. Alot of what we've been talking
about is the challenge ofreceiving feedback and this
whole notion of freedom. Whatdoes that mean in terms of how
(29:31):
we receive feedback? We canreceive feedback with that
intentional curiosity, thefreedom to really choose to
listen to that feedback in areally productive learning
development way. Or we canchoose to listen to that
feedback or receive thatfeedback in ways in which we
try to navigate around theenvironment. And so this whole
(29:54):
notion of freedom and that , inits title, Leading a Culture of
Chosen Accountability andBelonging. As a function of
confronting that freedom. It'sa really compelling and
thoughtful book that I'veenjoyed reading.
Troy Blaser (30:08):
I really like you pointing that out in that
mid-year evaluation. I thinkthe stereotype is that, well,
my manager's going to give mefeedback and I just have to
listen and do what my managersays to do. You know? But I
think you're pointing out, andI agree that no, you have a
choice first in how you receivethat feedback. And you can
choose to be intentional aboutit. It's not just preordained
(30:29):
that my manager says this andI'm going to have to do it no
matter what it is. But there isthat choice involved, and I
really like that idea, thatconcept. So you've just started
Avinger Consulting. Are thereany projects that you're
working on that you'reespecially passionate about
right now that you want toshare with us?
Robert Avinger (30:48):
One of the things that seems to be coming
up in a lot of theconversations that I'm having
with my network is the problemthat organizations are having
around onboarding managers. Soorganizations may be in a
period of hiring up based onhaving a new contract or
growth, et cetera . And withthat comes the need to hire new
(31:10):
managers, whether those areinternal hires where people are
getting promoted or hiringexternally. And it goes back to
this whole notion of generallythese managers are frontline
kind of new managers. And howdo organizations spend the time
(31:31):
on the front end to reallyorient them and onboard them
into the culture of theorganization where they are
leading their teams inalignment to the expectations
that the organizations hasaround leadership. And a lot of
organizations don't have theresources or tools to do that,
(31:54):
or the time really they'rerunning and gunning and they've
gotta deliver to clientcommitments, et cetera. And so
six months in a manager looksup and says, gosh, I don't, I
don't even know how to go aboutdoing what I'm doing.
Troy Blaser (32:07):
I've been doing this job for six months and I
don't even know what I'm doingyet .
Robert Avinger (32:10):
Exactly.
Exactly. So investing in anonboarding program that is more
than just your typicaltransactional onboarding
program, but really kind ofdigs into what it means to lead
your team, how to lead yourteam . And then I think the
other piece that happens withit that I'm really excited
(32:32):
about, and it goes back to thepremise of my consulting
practice, is all of a suddenyou've got this peer group of
managers who have a reallystrong relationship with one
another and can lean on oneanother and help one another
and challenge one another intheir roles as managers. And so
beginning to wade into a littlebit of a design process around
(32:53):
what does that manageronboarding program look like
and how might it be a value addto organizations that are
facing the challenges of how dowe bring new managers in, in a
way that really engages them ,secures their longer tenure,
and ultimately has an impact onthe teams that they lead as
well.
Troy Blaser (33:13):
You mentioned this has come up for you a few
different times now in yourwork. Do you have a sense about
why this is sort of a recurringtheme right now
Robert Avinger (33:21):
In talking to organizations it is a concern
about turnover and the impactthat turnover has on an
organization, and how can weaddress turnover from the very
beginning? So that's one piece.
The other is a realization thatoftentimes managers are, and
(33:44):
I'll say it this way, they'rein over their head, and I don't
mean that they're not capable.
But it means they're underwaterwith the amount of pressure and
the volume of responsibilitiesthat we've given them without
the development that comesalong with it. So it's really a
recognition that we need to doa better job of developing our
(34:05):
managers. And a great place tostart is when they're brand
new. I think that's reallywhere it's coming from.
Troy Blaser (34:11):
Yeah. When they're brand new is probably when they
need the help the most.
Robert Avinger (34:14):
Exactly. And one of the impacts of that is
the engagement of thosemanagers. Like the appreciation
that comes along with, oh, wow,you're investing in me. You
care about my development andmy growth. I really like this
place. I'm going to stay hereand really dig in and do my
best work. So it's good.
Troy Blaser (34:33):
I'm , I'm going to choose to stay here.
Robert Avinger (34:35):
Exactly.
Troy Blaser (34:36):
Well, Robert, I really appreciate the
conversation that we've had.
We're kind of reaching the endof our time, but if people want
to know more, if they want toconnect with you, is that
something you're open to? Andhow would you recommend that
they do that?
Robert Avinger (34:49):
Absolutely. I'm always interested in networking
and building relationships.
Right. Relationships are whereit's at. So you can find me on
LinkedIn, Robert Avinger, andI'm based in Nashville,
Tennessee. I think there are acouple of Robert Avinger out
there, but I'm the one inNashville. And then my website
for my consulting practice is.
(35:10):
My email address is on there.
I've got a a way that you canget in touch with me on the
website and I would love tohear from you.
Troy Blaser (35:16):
Fantastic. Well, thank you again. This has been
an interesting conversation.
I've really enjoyed getting toknow you a little bit and the
things that we've been able totalk about today.
Robert Avinger (35:25):
Likewise, Troy, this has been, this has been a
lot of fun telling somestories, and I really
appreciate you all inviting meto participate. Thank you very
much. Good to get to know youas well.
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