November 6, 2024 • 39 mins
Sean Murray, a leadership expert and author, delves into the crucial role of feedback in driving organizational growth. Drawing on the experiences of the 1984 U.S. men’s gold-winning volleyball team, he illustrates how trust and collaboration were cultivated through a challenging Outward Bound experience. Murray emphasizes that true leadership is about guiding teams to embrace challenges, fostering an environment where vulnerability and open communication thrive. The conversation highlights how such an approach not only builds resilient teams but also enhances their ability to collaborate and solve problems effectively.
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Episode Transcript
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Sean Murray (00:00):
They were willing to put themselves out there in
other ways. Maybe like forexample, feedback. One of the
ways that the team gavefeedback to one another was the
players would write down onfour by six cards what they
liked and what they didn't likeabout what the coaches were
doing. And the coaches would dothe same with the players.
Troy Blaser (00:27):
Hello, welcome to Simply Feedback the podcast
brought to you by LearningBridge . I'm your host Troy
Blazer and it's great to bewith you. Today I'm happy to
introduce our guest, Sean P.
Murray , who is the CEO andCo-founder of RealTime
Performance, specializing inteam development. With over 25
years of expertise, Sean excelsin leadership development and
(00:49):
coaching. Sean is the host ofthe Good Life Podcast,
exploring personal growth andfulfillment. He is also the
author of the book, "If Gold isOur Destiny", which delves into
achieving personal andprofessional success by sharing
the story of the 1984 Goldmedal winning US men's
volleyball team. Sean'sinnovative approach and thought
(01:11):
leadership make him a prominentfigure in organizational
development. Sean , welcome toSimply Feedback. It's so great
to have you with us today.
Sean Murray (01:19):
Well, thank you Troy. It's really good to be
here. Excited for theconversation.
Troy Blaser (01:23):
Yeah. We often start with this question, but I
wonder if you could tell usabout a time that somebody gave
you feedback maybe that had animpact on your life or marked a
turning point for you. Can youshare a story with us?
Sean Murray (01:35):
Yeah. You know, feedback can be so powerful and
what comes to mind is a timeearly in my career when I
started managing people, I hada small team. I was working
with a technology company. Ihad a developer on my team that
was a young man, very good attechnology. We hired him right
out of college when he was 22.
(01:56):
And about six years into hiscareer, he was almost like our
chief technology officer. And Iremember one day I got pretty
upset. We had a long list offeatures and bugs in our
technology that wasn't a wellorganized list. And we had a
customer that was complainingabout a certain feature that
was not completed yet. And Ifired off an email to this
(02:20):
gentleman, I'll call him Joe.
And uh , kind of a nasty email.
I call him a nasty grams when Iget them from other people. But
I was young in my career and Iwas pretty upset that this
feature hadn't been releasedyet, hadn't been worked on. And
Joe came in my office and tohis credit, didn't fire a
(02:40):
nastygram back. And he said,you know, Sean , I got to give
you some feedback on this. Andit wasn't just the nature of
the email. It was, you know,"you're the leader of this team
and you can't just expect us tofix the feature that you want
fixed in any given time. Thereneeds to be some kind of
prioritization. You need totell us what to work on. And
(03:02):
you know, it's not fair to justlob these hand grenades over
the wall at us." Because Iremember in my email, "I said,
aren't there pockets of timethat you could just get this
done?" I don't know where Icame up with this pockets of
time. really touched a
Troy Blaser (03:16):
What every manager wishes, every employee had
spare pockets of time, right?
Sean Murray (03:20):
I was looking out at this team going, there's
time somewhere. Right? And whatJoe was saying to me was, you
need to do your job. Part ofyour job as a leader is to help
prioritize, help the teamprioritize what do you want us
to work on now and what's mostimportant, and let's go through
this together. And this wasfeedback that was coming back
up the chain of command, so tospeak. And it really had a big
(03:41):
impact on how I lead and how Iwork with teams. And often you
have to look in the mirror as aleader and say, "okay, what am
I doing here?" And, and Ireally was putting the blame on
my team when I should have beenleading and working together to
figure out what was important.
And so we changed how weprioritized features and bugs
because the same team thatworked on the features worked
(04:02):
on the bugs too. So we had tofigure out, okay, what's most
important feedback can be sopowerful. That one always stood
out to me, Troy.
Troy Blaser (04:10):
That was bold of Joe, to be able to offer that
feedback and gracious of you toaccept it. It sounds like you
had a moment to pause and say,what you're saying is useful,
it's meaningful, it's true.
Let's make some changes, let'sact in a different way going
forward.
Sean Murray (04:25):
Well, I think it took me a little while to make
that adjustment. Are youfamiliar with the Sara acronym
with feedback? Sometimes I'veused this.
Troy Blaser (04:34):
No. What is that?
Sean Murray (04:36):
Okay. I had to meet Sara first. And so Sara,
for me, when I get feedback, Ican't remember where I, who
taught me this along the way,but in my mind it's surprise,
anger, rationalization andacceptance. So, surprise is
sort of like, what ? Wait, whatdo you mean you're , you're
upset. I'm upset at you. Youshould be upset at me. You
know, you're the one thatdidn't get this done. And that
(04:57):
kind of leads into the angerpart. The rationalization is
where we sort of try torationalize it away. Like, you
know, Joe doesn't reallyunderstand how to run a
business like I do at my level.
And, but it's the acceptanceyou got to get to and realize
the validity of what you'rehearing. And I do remember at
that time it didn't take melong to get to it because I was
(05:17):
sort of maybe at the point inmy career where I needed to
hear that and was ready to hearit. I probably received some
earlier feedback that wasignored up to that point. And
sometimes that's what it takeswith feedback. You have to be
in the right place. Maybeyou're feeling enough pain at
that moment. But it really getsthrough to you and you realize
you do need to change thatthere is something about your
(05:39):
own approach that is notworking. And it did take a
little emotional intelligenceon both of our parts. I think
to get to the breakthrough,
Troy Blaser (05:48):
When I'm not hosting a podcast, which is
most of my day here at LearningBridge , I actually do focus on
the technology side. So I dodevelopment and database work.
And I have been in Joe's shoesbefore where this week, this is
the feature that we're going tobe working on, and next week I
just heard from a customer. Andso we're all switching our
(06:08):
attention to this new feature.
And it's like, well, hold on asecond. Can we make some
priorities? Right. Did youforget about the one we talked
about two weeks ago? Becausetoday's one is more important.
And so I've been that developertrying to keep up. And I've
also been on the, themanagement side trying to have
that bigger picture and tryingto say, "okay, from my vantage
point, what are the priorities?
(06:28):
What are the most importantthings to be working on?" So it
can be a real challenge forsure.
Sean Murray (06:34):
Absolutely.
Troy Blaser (06:35):
Well, let's talk for just a minute about your
book. If Gold is Our Destiny,how a team of Mavericks Came
Together for Olympic Glory isthe subtitle. This one was
fascinating to me. I mentionedkind of before we started
recording, I'm, I would say avolleyball enthusiast. I've
played volleyball for manyyears. Had the opportunity to
(06:56):
play ball with a couple of theperiphery characters in the
book, not necessarily thoseamazing athletes that were on
that 1984 team. So for me, thevolleyball was interesting, but
I also enjoyed the leadershipand team lessons that you
pulled out of that story. Andwere able to apply across a
broader way of working that allof us will face in our careers,
(07:19):
in our jobs, things like that.
One of the, the interestingepisodes that you related in
the book was this experiencethat the team took as part of
Outward Bound spending threeweeks in the mountains of
Southern Utah. And you talkabout the obstacles that they
had to overcome as part of thatexperience and how that helped
them work together as a team.
(07:41):
So it was an amazing story. Arethere some lessons that we can
take from reading about thatOutward Bound experience, ways
that leaders can help develop acohesive and resilient team in
our own environments?
Sean Murray (07:53):
I think absolutely there are, you know , this team
was struggling when the coach,coach Doug Beal decided to make
this momentous decision reallyto take the team on an outward
bound three week through themountains of southern Utah in
the middle of winter course.
Troy Blaser (08:11):
This was not the typical way that a volleyball
team gets ready for theOlympics.
Sean Murray (08:16):
Yes. And that was pointed out by the players many
times, back to the coaches ,that this is the, the early
1980s, this is leading up tothe 1984 Olympics in Los
Angeles. So this was 1982 whenthe idea was being thrown
around. It was 1983, January of83 when they went, when they
finally decided to go on theOutward Bound, which is about
(08:36):
18 months before the Olympics.
So yeah, it's not the typical.
And so there was a initialresistance by the players. To
your point, the question thatwas surfaced was, how is this
going to help us become bettervolleyball players? Don't we
get better at volleyball bygetting in the gym and working
on the skills we need to workon, get better at passing or
(08:59):
whatever the skill is orsetting? Isn't that what we
need to be doing? And that wasthe question that was thrown
back at the coaches. And, andto the coach's credit, they
were thinking a little further.
They, they really thought thatthere was a culture issue, that
what the team needed to do waswork on being a team. And that
requires building trust. Andthe trust wasn't always there
(09:22):
with this team. Something wasmissing. And they knew because
they had such incredibletalent. This was a amazing
generation of Americanvolleyball players, a lot of
them playing on the beach. Theygot to this point in their
career. They were focused onthe indoor game because that's
the only Olympic volleyballsport there was at the time.
And you know, you mightremember, some of your
(09:43):
listeners might remember KarchKarily, who was a big name in
the eighties and probably, youknow , the Michael Jordan of
volleyball. You probably , andsome other big names from that
team. But they had a lot oftalent, but they weren't
winning. They had just come in13th, I think, in the World
championships a few monthsbefore they went on this trip.
And, and they really shouldn'thave been 13th. They should
(10:03):
have been in the top four orfive teams at that point with
their talent, but they weren'tplaying well together. And
that's one of the lessons Ipulled from just writing about
this team, is something thatthe coach told me about this
period in figuring out who wasgoing to be on the team. He
said , it's not the bestplayers, it's the best players
who can play together as ateam. And his role as a coach
(10:25):
was to create the culture andthe environment and of course
the offensive systems and, andthat sort of thing. But, so
that was the nature of makingthis decision to go on Outward
Bound. Of course, you had toget the players to sort of buy
in. And the way they did thatwas basically to say, look, if
you don't go on this OutwardBound, I can't guarantee you're
going to be on the team. And itwas that ticket, that golden
(10:45):
ticket of getting to theOlympics that they wanted. And
so a lot of them said, "okay,I'm going to do what it takes."
So that was the context. Butwhen they get out into the
Outward Bound, I think learningabout each other, trust , uh,
even some feedback to eachother, there were a lot of
things that happened out there,relying on each other to
survive and getting out of yourregular comfort zone and your
(11:10):
regular routine and gettinginto a different environment.
Now , I'll give a coupleexamples. You're based in Utah,
so you know, there's a lot ofsnow down there in the Abajo
Mountains in Monticello. Andthis was a particularly snowy
year, so they snowshoe and sothey were breaking trail, so
someone on the team had to beout front. If you've ever snows
shooted , then , you know it'sa lot harder to be that person
(11:32):
out front. They could breaktrail for a while and they had
50 pound packs on. I mean,they're packing everything in.
So this was not a easyendeavor. And the person out
front is at a high elevation.
You know, they're used toliving at sea level in Los
Angeles In San Diego. Sothey're at a high level, and
they would take turns breakingtrails. So that part of it,
(11:54):
just to get from point A topoint B, you had to work
together. And when they got towherever they were getting to
that evening, it was aftermaybe 10 or 12 miles of hiking.
Sometimes someone had to set upthe tent, you know, someone had
to get ready for dinner,someone had to gather some
firewood for a fire, andeveryone had their role. And
together they survived. And atthe end of the day, they would
(12:16):
sit around the fire and talk,and then they would get up and
do it all again the next day.
And they started to see eachother in ways that were a
little different than on thevolleyball court, because on
the volleyball court there's a,there's sort of a hierarchy in
any sport, right? Where there'sthe starters and there's the
people that are kind of at thetop of the pecking order. And
then you go all down to thepeople that come off the bench
and it got all jumbled becausemaybe the person who comes in
(12:38):
off the bench and has a veryspecific role might be the most
important person because theyknow how to navigate or they
know how to cook, or they knowhow to set the tent up. And so
they, they saw each other indifferent ways. And when they
came out of this experience, Ibelieve there was a lot more
trust and stronger bonds andrelationships between the
(12:59):
players. And that led to awhole level of innovation and
creativity about how to playthe game of volleyball. They
developed something called theAmerican system, which is still
used today. And if you talk tocoaches from other
international programs, theywill still point to this 1984
team as a real turning point inthe sport of how they
(13:20):
approached volleyball. And Idon't think the creativity, the
flourishing, and of coursegoing on to spoiler alert, they
win the gold medal. You know, Idon't think it would've
happened without that sort ofinteraction.
Troy Blaser (13:33):
You mentioned in the book too, it provided a
common experience foreverybody. Some team members
were, you know, from Ohio, fromthe Midwest, some were from
southern California. There wasa little bit of a culture clash
there and getting everybody offtogether in a new experience
that was common to everybody onthe team, kind of gave them a
(13:55):
new basis for relating to eachother too.
Sean Murray (13:58):
Yes. Yeah. That common shared experience, in
fact, when the coaches dreamedup this idea, what they
originally wanted to do, and myfather was involved in that too
because my father was the teampsychologist that was working
with Doug Beal . And so they,they said what we need is a
(14:20):
shared significant lifeexperience, which I think is
getting to this common sharedexperience you're talking
about. And doing somethingtogether maybe outside of the
norm that allows you to again,build trust form relationships.
It was really important forthis team to do that. And, and
maybe to circle around to youroriginal question, okay, well
(14:40):
what does that mean to us?
Building teams and working inour corporations? Well, we
don't all have the luxury to gooff for three weeks and whatnot
, but this is where you oftensee the offsite, you know, get
out of the office environment.
It's so important. If you'regoing to have maybe talk about
strategy or do some teambuilding, do it somewhere
(15:02):
outside of the regular confinesif you can, you know, go out,
do some bowling or go on a ahike, go to Topgolf, do some
kind of activity and just havesome fun. And that sort of
activity can buildrelationships and get people to
see each other in differentways that they don't see each
other in the office. Get toknow each other in a way that's
(15:25):
outside of the typicalcorporate peer relationship
where you share an obstacle youovercame in your life or
something other people mightnot know about you. Or some
significance as a manager, youcan ask your team, let's just
go around and share. And youshare first as the manager or
the leader. And then you inviteyour team to talk and you'd be
(15:45):
amazed at what you're going tohear and the connections that
people might forge that theyotherwise might not if they
didn't have the opportunity tohave that kind of conversation.
Troy Blaser (15:57):
Yeah. It sounds like after Outward Bound, as
they approached the Olympicsthat were coming, you know, a
year and a half later thatathletes developed more trust
in the coaches. And youmentioned in the book, they
learned to listen to their owncrazy ideas. They weren't
afraid to look foolish. Therewere times when the coaches
would come up with someparticular drills that were out
(16:19):
of the box. And those athletes,because of that trust they had
developed, they said, okay,we'll try it and see what
happens. So there was kind of apsychological safety happening
there. Are there ways that aleader in an organization can
create that same kind ofpsychological safety for team
members to be able to takerisks?
Sean Murray (16:40):
I like the term psychological safety. It is
what these coaches created atthat time through the Outward
Bound experience and just howthey approached practices and
working with the players earlyon. The coach Doug Beal said
one of the keys to success wasthat we weren't afraid to look
foolish. And that was acontagious thing that the
(17:02):
players took on too. And Ithink that's important for any
kind of creativity orinnovation that you have to be
willing to put yourself outthere. And for that you have to
have trust in yourself, trustin each other, and your own
crazy ideas and willingness tolearn. You know, I guess it's a
form of feedback. You go outthere and, and maybe you fail,
(17:22):
but you learn and you moveforward. And that attitude was
so important for the team toget to where they needed to go
to be the best in the world atwhat they do. And as I relate
that back to working with teamsand businesses today as a
leader or a manager, if you cancreate that atmosphere, you're
going to get better ideas.
(17:43):
You're going to get peoplebought in to new ideas and to
change. And some tips for doingthat are building a place where
there's a high level of trust.
It starts with having aapproach of vulnerability as a
leader, you know, if you comein and you lead from a sort of
command and control and anauthority, you're not going to
(18:06):
get the kind of creativityinnovation you're looking for.
But if you approach it as,okay, I'm looking for all of
your ideas. I don't have allthe answers, I am here to
facilitate the best decision.
So I want to hear from all ofyou, what do we want to do with
this obstacle? Do we want to dothis merger or not? Or how do
(18:27):
we want to approach thisstrategic partnership? Let's
get the best ideas out thereand if it's crazy, okay, let's
talk about it. You know,sometimes the best ideas that
get thrown out in these kind ofsessions are ideas that aren't
fully formed yet, and sotherefore they're a little
impractical and kind of crazy.
But as a manager, you can shootthem down pretty quick if you
(18:49):
want to because they are maybenot fully formed. But if you
have the psychological safety,that's an opportunity to learn.
"Okay, tell me more about thatidea. What do we like about
it?" Questions like that, thatget to building the cohesion
and the togetherness that youneed as a team.
Troy Blaser (19:08):
You talked about leading with vulnerability and
being open to those kinds ofsuggestions. And now thinking
back to the story of the team,I was thinking about the
coaches thinking about DougBeal and the assistant coaches
as well as I read the book, andyou can tell me if you have
other insights too, but itseems like there was that
(19:29):
vulnerability between the headcoach, Doug Beal and his
assistants in terms of himlistening to their ideas. Do
you feel like there was thatvulnerability between the
coaches and the players? Or didthat have to develop over a
much longer period for theteam?
Sean Murray (19:47):
That's a really good question. And there were
two main coaches, Doug Bealand, and there was assistant
Bill Neville, and I think BillNeville was better at creating
the vulnerability and was moreof a player's coach and was
there to develop really strongrelationships with the players.
(20:08):
He's the kind of guy that doesthat naturally. People
gravitate to him and he's justthe kind of coach that really
loves his players. Players lovehim. And we've probably all had
coaches like that in our wives.
Doug Beal was a little bit moreemotionally removed from the
players because he had thefinal decision to make about
(20:29):
who was going to be on the teamand who wasn't going to be on
on the team. And he felt likethey didn't want his emotions
to cloud this judgment on thatdecision. And so he did, I
think have a little more spacebetween him. Now it's like he's
one of the guys, I was just ata reunion of this team. His
relationship now with theplayers is much different as
(20:50):
you've probably imagine, youknow, 40 some years later. But
he was a little bit emotionallyremoved, but the coaches went
on the Outward Bound too. Idon't know if I mentioned that.
And I think that's an importantpart of what was going on here,
is that they were willing to doall the things that they were
asking the players to do, andthey were willing to put
themselves out there in otherways. Maybe like for example,
(21:14):
feedback. One of the ways thatthe team gave feedback to one
another was the players wouldwrite down on four by six cards
what they liked and what theydidn't like about what the
coaches were doing. And thecoaches would do the same with
the players. And then thatwould go to, my father was as
the team psychologist. We werefiltering through these cards
(21:35):
and then we'd get everyonetogether and say, okay, let's
talk about this one. Sofeedback was going both ways,
which was not typical forcoaches back in that day. It
was sort of like , I'm thecoach, I know how to coach
volleyball, you listen to me.
But it wasn't working withthese players. They were more
mature, they were independentthinkers. They had their own
(21:56):
ideas, they were vulnerable,they were open to feedback,
they were criticized by theplayers in certain ways and
what they were doing. And theymade adjustments based on the
feedback. And I think that's,to their credit, and I'm sure
contributed to their success.
Troy Blaser (22:11):
Maybe that's part of what makes a great coach or
a great leader, is finding theright balance, knowing when to
hear that feedback that'scoming from the players or the
team members. And then knowingthe right decision to make
based on that feedback. Becauseobviously the coaches got a lot
of feedback of, "we don't wantto go on Outward Bound. We
don't think that's a goodidea." Right. They listened to
(22:32):
that, but they still did theactivity. But like you say,
there were other times whenthey got feedback from the team
and said, "yeah, this time weneed to do what these athletes
are wanting."
Sean Murray (22:42):
Yeah. That's a great insight. That is the,
that's the art of leadership.
Knowing when to listen, when topush back a little bit. There
are other times when theplayers said that the coaches
pushed them harder than theywanted to be pushed. I'm sure
there was some pushback on, dowe really need to do this drill
12 times? Do we really need todo all this weight training or
(23:03):
physical, whatever it was. AndDoug Beal pushed those players
harder than they wanted to bepushed and it wasn't
comfortable, but they're verygrateful now. That he did that
because they have that goldmedal that changed their life.
Troy Blaser (23:15):
Absolutely. So I was curious, as I was getting
ready for our conversationtoday, I know that your father
was involved with the team asthe team psychologist and that
your father wasn't necessarilya volleyball expert. How much
did you know about the game ofvolleyball before you started
writing the book?
Sean Murray (23:34):
Not very much. Not as much as I really needed to
know to write at the highlevel. But luckily I had the
help of people around the team.
Including Doug Beel and BillNeville to coach me on what was
important in the game. And I'velearned a lot about the game
over time and it's , uh, sothere was a lot of learning I
had to do as well. And ofcourse it always surprised me
(23:56):
that my dad was involved in avolleyball , uh, because he
wasn't a volleyball player .
You know, he, he definitelystood out if you put him in, if
you lined up all the volleyballplayers and you , you know , my
dad was not that tall and , apretty good athlete in his
younger days, but by this timehe really wasn't. And so I had
to learn a lot. And volleyballis very much a team sport.
(24:20):
That's something that I tookaway is just how critical it is
to be a team in volleyballbecause one person can't go
one-on-one.
Troy Blaser (24:31):
Right. Yeah.
Sean Murray (24:32):
It's not like the NBA where you can kind of pass
to your best player and thatplayer can
Troy Blaser (24:37):
Clear out everybody else out.
Sean Murray (24:38):
Yeah clear out, let these to do the pick and
roll and, and it may maybe themost team-based sport in the
world. I'm sure there's somearguments there, but I would
say the way the other team candictate where they put the ball
to start any sort of rally oranything like that, if you have
a weak link on your team, youknow, it's so you have to work
(24:59):
together. That was one thingthat the players learned.
Again, this came out of afeedback session where the
players realized that how theyreact to a mistake was so
important to the psyche and tothe, the momentum and to the,
on the court culture they'retrying to create. Because there
(25:20):
were times when someone made amistake, they would get the
sort of stare down , like, whatare you doing? How could you
let that happen? They had toovercome that and realize , we
can't do that anymore. That ifsomeone makes a mistake, we
come together, we got this,don't worry, we'll get the next
one. Put that out of your mind.
We're a team, let's get rightback at it. And so they learned
how to give each other feedbackon the court in real time in a
(25:43):
way that preserved theirculture on the court and
hopefully preserved theirconfidence in one another so
that they could win. Volleyballis a game of momentum swing .
Troy Blaser (25:52):
Yeah, very much so. So Sean , sometimes in the
work that I do, I willencounter an organization with
a culture that is resistant tofeedback, which is
understandable. It can beanxiety inducing to think I'm
going to open myself up to allof this feedback and who knows
what's going to happen. Arethere strategies that you can
(26:12):
share with us for leaders tohelp them effectively handle
this kind of feedbackresistance in their teams?
Sean Murray (26:19):
Well, that's a good question. I think there's
probably various contexts, butone thing that comes to mind is
making the case for change, youknow , I think of the John
Kotter and his work aroundchange and he talks about the
burning platform. And you know,sometimes what people need to
hear when they have resistanceto change is that what's
(26:40):
awaiting for you if you don'taccept the feedback, it's
potentially irrelevance for theway that the world is, is
moving. Another tack I mighttake as a leader is building
the case for, it's theorganization that learns and is
agile and can accept feedbackand get better. That is going
to be the most powerfulorganization. And you want to
(27:03):
try to build a culture that'saccepting of that. It doesn't
mean that everything you hearfrom feedback is completely
valid. You got to put itthrough your own filter as far
as validity and how to use thatfeedback. But for the most
part, it's the organizationthat is willing to evolve, to
innovate open to creativity tochange that's going to be
(27:26):
successful in this world that'schanging so fast, where if you
don't change, then in mostindustries there's going to be
some sort of irrelevance comingpretty quickly.
Troy Blaser (27:37):
You talked earlier about when the volleyball team
went on the Outward Boundexperience, the coaches
participated in thatexperience. I think there's
value in that example beingset. So if you're in an
organization that is mayberesistant to change, there's
value in setting that exampleas the team leader, as the
manager of receiving thatfeedback and doing it in a way
(27:58):
that's visible to say, here'sthe feedback that I've
received. Here are the changesthat I'm trying to make. That
can, I think, go a long waytowards breaking that
resistance down if, if folkssense that there's no hypocrisy
going on.
Sean Murray (28:13):
I think that's a great point. I mean, if you can
show and demonstrate that,look, I am open to feedback,
I'm listening, I'm trying toget better. I know the feedback
is helping me get better. Idon't always want to hear it, I
don't always believe it rightaway, but I, I am trying to do
that and I'm asking you to dothe same. I'm asking us as a
culture and as a team to usefeedback as a way to validate
(28:37):
where we're going and to getbetter. I think that's a great
example. And , and certainly Ithink the coaches did do that
and demonstrated, and I don'tthink it would've been
successful if the coacheswould've sent them off on the
Outward Bound and said, well,we're going to be, you know ,
in Hawaii during that time,taking a little r and r , I
don't think it would've worked.
And they, to their credit, theywere out there and it was not
easy. I should probably mentionI talked about that earlier,
(29:00):
less , and it's not the bestplayers, it's the best players
who can play together as ateam. And there was a very
talented player who didn't wantto go on the Outward Bound and
ended up opting out of theOutward Bound and went against
what the coaches were askingthe players to do. And
eventually that player didn'tmake it on the team. And so
they did look a little foolishin the short run, but it looked
(29:22):
like a genius move in the longrun when they won the gold
medal and they were a strongerteam because they became a
team. There's that saying thatthe power of the wolf is the
pack . They became this teamthat was much better because
everyone was bought in andeveryone was fully committed,
Troy Blaser (29:41):
Not only because of Outward Bound, but even the
whole culture going back intothe sixties and seventies. The
men's national team athleteswould come together a few
months before a tournament andhave some practices and then go
to the tournament andultimately not do very well.
And so part of what Doug Bealdid was elevate the team in
(30:03):
importance and say, if you'regoing to be on the team, you've
got to be committed to it.
We're going to practice four tosix hours a day every day. And
it's a year round commitment.
It's not just come together sixmonths before some tournament.
Sean Murray (30:17):
Yeah. And you got to put the success of the team
above yourself. And , and maybethat was another lesson that
came out of Outward Bound and ,and any great team eventually
to be the best at what you doand the best in the world, you
have to have a group of peoplethat are committed to the
success of the team. Andsometimes that requires a
little sacrifice and sometimesthat means that your ego
(30:40):
doesn't get fulfilled in theway personally you might want
it to because you got to thinkabout the success of the team.
And that might mean spending alittle more time on the bench
and having someone else outthere or giving credit to
someone else and I think allgreat teams get there
eventually, the world's litterwith teams that don't get there
because the egos get in theway.
Troy Blaser (31:01):
Yeah. I wonder, Sean , in the work that you do
with real-time performance, arethere some common
misconceptions about leadershipthat you encounter?
Sean Murray (31:09):
You know, one of the misconceptions that I see a
lot, and I think I also kind offell prey to this early in my
career, is that leaders need tobe liked by everyone. I think I
overly emphasized trying to winpeople over in every situation
and have everyone be, you know,happy and satisfied with every
(31:32):
outcome. Because I'm sort of apleaser. I want people to feel
good about where we're goingand feel good about my
leadership, what's happening.
And really in leadership,there's going to be people and
individuals in times whenthere's disagreement about uh,
direction or you might have tohave a really difficult
(31:53):
feedback conversation. And Ithink learning to overcome that
and to put yourself above maybethe emotional challenges of,
"okay, I've got to go have adifficult conversation with
this person." And that sort ofgoes against the, "Hey, this is
all great and we're going tohave , you know, work together
(32:14):
as a team to win a gold medal."And that's the kind of stuff
that I get enthused by. But youdon't get that unless you also
are able to have thosedifficult conversations and
realize not everyone's going tolike me all the time. Not
everyone's going to agree witheverything that I do. And you
have to get comfortable withthat as a leader. And some
(32:34):
people maybe are born naturallythat way. I wasn't. So I can
relate to people that have abit of a challenge with that.
And I think we need more ofthat in our society, in our
cultures, in our organizations,just leaders that are willing
to help people face reality andhelp them improve. You know,
often it's those difficultconversations that help people
(32:57):
figure out maybe this isn't theright place for them to work or
this is the right place, butthey've got to really get
committed. And as leaders, yougot to, you got to step up and
have those conversations. Notalways fun, but they're so
important to being a highfunctioning leader and a team.
Troy Blaser (33:13):
Yeah. There's a difference between a leader and
a friend and there's someoverlap there, but not
entirely. And ultimately in thelong term , we want leaders who
are willing to make thosedifficult decisions, even when
we don't always agree. Theathletes on the volleyball team
wanted a coach who would pushthem to do workouts that they
(33:35):
didn't want to do because ofthe long-term goal.
Sean Murray (33:39):
Yes, I totally agree with that, Troy, that we
crave that sort of leader, eventhough in the short term or at
times we go, "man, that thatleader's tough." Like my very
first boss was a verychallenging, hard nosed bond .
I love the guy to death, but hewasn't afraid to tell me where,
where I was going wrong, but Iwas doing something wrong or
(34:01):
that he thought I needed to do, uh, work harder or be more
committed. And when I look backat my career, I think how much
I grew under that leadership.
It's amazing. But it wasn'talways easy at the time. And I
think I complained about him afew times, but you know, when I
look back on, he's still a goodfriend of mine and a mentor to
(34:21):
me and and that's the kind ofleader that really pushes you
to grow and excel.
Troy Blaser (34:27):
Yeah. Well, so you wrote the book couple of years
ago and I know there was a lotof time and effort spent on the
research and the writing of thebook and getting it published.
If gold is our destiny, it's afantastic story. Are there some
projects, is there somethingyou're working on right now
that you're especiallypassionate about that you can
share with us?
Sean Murray (34:47):
Well, I have some ideas and some projects early
on for a follow on book. Ihaven't really talked about
that publicly yet, but what I'mreally excited about as a
follow on with this book, I"fGold is our Destiny", is that
there's a group in Hollywoodthat's picked it up that they
would like to make adocumentary about the story.
(35:11):
And so we're in the earlystages right now, but we did do
some interviews and I wasrecently in Long Beach when the
team got together for a reunionand we got in front of a camera
and there were a number ofinterviews. And so this story
is hopefully going to be toldin another format, in a
documentary format, which Ithink could appeal to maybe a
(35:33):
wider audience. Not everybodywants to read a book and a lot
of people love the documentaryformat. There's a lot of great
sports documentaries. Thereseems to be a lot of interest.
I think we learn so much fromstories from athletics. I'm
excited that this mightactually get out there. Maybe,
you know, on one of thosestreaming services down the
(35:53):
road, you might see this story.
It may not have the title "IfGold is Our Destiny", so be
open to others. But they'vehired me to help with the
research and be involved in theproject. I'm really excited
about it's,
Troy Blaser (36:06):
That's exciting.
I'll definitely watch for that.
We definitely need more footageof those stylish 1980s short
shorts , uh, that the all thevolleyball teams wore, right?
Sean Murray (36:18):
That's right.
Yeah, they definitely had it'slike the Boston Celtics Lake
series in eighties inbasketball. The same thing was
going on in volleyball. Yeah.
They did recently reissue the84 men's volleyball , um,
jersey that they wore Uhhuh tocommemorate the team that it
was 40 years ago this summerthat they won their gold medal.
(36:40):
And the Olympics are comingback to Los Angeles in 2028.
And so there's going to be, Ibelieve, more interest in this
team because nine of the 12players were from the Southern
California, Los Angeles area.
They were sort of the hometownboys, the hometown team in 84.
And they went against the oddsto win this gold medal in 84
and it was a big deal for thecity. And now the Olympics are
(37:03):
coming back to la And so I hopethere's a little resurgence in
the team. And I think thiscompany that wants to do the
documentary, I think they'rehoping for a little resurgence
too.
Troy Blaser (37:11):
Well, good luck to you on that project. That
sounds exciting. Sean , ifpeople want to know more, if
they want to connect with youto continue the kinds of
conversations that we've beenhaving, what should they do?
How should they reach out toyou?
Sean Murray (37:24):
Well, my website is and yeah , I'm also on
LinkedIn. If you look up SeanP. Murray and RealTime
Performance, or "If Golden AreDestiny", you'll find me, and
I'm happy to connect withpeople. Would love to have
further conversations if otherswant to learn more about the
book or lessons from the bookor what I do to help
(37:46):
organizations.
Troy Blaser (37:47):
Fantastic. Sean , thanks so much for being with
us today. I appreciate it.
Thanks,
Sean Murray (37:51):
Troy. It was a great conversation. Have a
great day.
They were willing to put themselves out there in
other ways. Maybe like forexample, feedback. One of the
ways that the team gavefeedback to one another was the
players would write down onfour by six cards what they
liked and what they didn't likeabout what the coaches were
doing. And the coaches would dothe same with the players.
Troy Blaser (00:27):
Hello, welcome to Simply Feedback the podcast
brought to you by LearningBridge . I'm your host Troy
Blazer and it's great to bewith you. Today I'm happy to
introduce our guest, Sean P.
Murray , who is the CEO andCo-founder of RealTime
Performance, specializing inteam development. With over 25
years of expertise, Sean excelsin leadership development and
(00:49):
coaching. Sean is the host ofthe Good Life Podcast,
exploring personal growth andfulfillment. He is also the
author of the book, "If Gold isOur Destiny", which delves into
achieving personal andprofessional success by sharing
the story of the 1984 Goldmedal winning US men's
volleyball team. Sean'sinnovative approach and thought
(01:11):
leadership make him a prominentfigure in organizational
development. Sean , welcome toSimply Feedback. It's so great
to have you with us today.
Sean Murray (01:19):
Well, thank you Troy. It's really good to be
here. Excited for theconversation.
Troy Blaser (01:23):
Yeah. We often start with this question, but I
wonder if you could tell usabout a time that somebody gave
you feedback maybe that had animpact on your life or marked a
turning point for you. Can youshare a story with us?
Sean Murray (01:35):
Yeah. You know, feedback can be so powerful and
what comes to mind is a timeearly in my career when I
started managing people, I hada small team. I was working
with a technology company. Ihad a developer on my team that
was a young man, very good attechnology. We hired him right
out of college when he was 22.
(01:56):
And about six years into hiscareer, he was almost like our
chief technology officer. And Iremember one day I got pretty
upset. We had a long list offeatures and bugs in our
technology that wasn't a wellorganized list. And we had a
customer that was complainingabout a certain feature that
was not completed yet. And Ifired off an email to this
(02:20):
gentleman, I'll call him Joe.
And uh , kind of a nasty email.
I call him a nasty grams when Iget them from other people. But
I was young in my career and Iwas pretty upset that this
feature hadn't been releasedyet, hadn't been worked on. And
Joe came in my office and tohis credit, didn't fire a
(02:40):
nastygram back. And he said,you know, Sean , I got to give
you some feedback on this. Andit wasn't just the nature of
the email. It was, you know,"you're the leader of this team
and you can't just expect us tofix the feature that you want
fixed in any given time. Thereneeds to be some kind of
prioritization. You need totell us what to work on. And
(03:02):
you know, it's not fair to justlob these hand grenades over
the wall at us." Because Iremember in my email, "I said,
aren't there pockets of timethat you could just get this
done?" I don't know where Icame up with this pockets of
time. really touched a
Troy Blaser (03:16):
What every manager wishes, every employee had
spare pockets of time, right?
Sean Murray (03:20):
I was looking out at this team going, there's
time somewhere. Right? And whatJoe was saying to me was, you
need to do your job. Part ofyour job as a leader is to help
prioritize, help the teamprioritize what do you want us
to work on now and what's mostimportant, and let's go through
this together. And this wasfeedback that was coming back
up the chain of command, so tospeak. And it really had a big
(03:41):
impact on how I lead and how Iwork with teams. And often you
have to look in the mirror as aleader and say, "okay, what am
I doing here?" And, and Ireally was putting the blame on
my team when I should have beenleading and working together to
figure out what was important.
And so we changed how weprioritized features and bugs
because the same team thatworked on the features worked
(04:02):
on the bugs too. So we had tofigure out, okay, what's most
important feedback can be sopowerful. That one always stood
out to me, Troy.
Troy Blaser (04:10):
That was bold of Joe, to be able to offer that
feedback and gracious of you toaccept it. It sounds like you
had a moment to pause and say,what you're saying is useful,
it's meaningful, it's true.
Let's make some changes, let'sact in a different way going
forward.
Sean Murray (04:25):
Well, I think it took me a little while to make
that adjustment. Are youfamiliar with the Sara acronym
with feedback? Sometimes I'veused this.
Troy Blaser (04:34):
No. What is that?
Sean Murray (04:36):
Okay. I had to meet Sara first. And so Sara,
for me, when I get feedback, Ican't remember where I, who
taught me this along the way,but in my mind it's surprise,
anger, rationalization andacceptance. So, surprise is
sort of like, what ? Wait, whatdo you mean you're , you're
upset. I'm upset at you. Youshould be upset at me. You
know, you're the one thatdidn't get this done. And that
(04:57):
kind of leads into the angerpart. The rationalization is
where we sort of try torationalize it away. Like, you
know, Joe doesn't reallyunderstand how to run a
business like I do at my level.
And, but it's the acceptanceyou got to get to and realize
the validity of what you'rehearing. And I do remember at
that time it didn't take melong to get to it because I was
(05:17):
sort of maybe at the point inmy career where I needed to
hear that and was ready to hearit. I probably received some
earlier feedback that wasignored up to that point. And
sometimes that's what it takeswith feedback. You have to be
in the right place. Maybeyou're feeling enough pain at
that moment. But it really getsthrough to you and you realize
you do need to change thatthere is something about your
(05:39):
own approach that is notworking. And it did take a
little emotional intelligenceon both of our parts. I think
to get to the breakthrough,
Troy Blaser (05:48):
When I'm not hosting a podcast, which is
most of my day here at LearningBridge , I actually do focus on
the technology side. So I dodevelopment and database work.
And I have been in Joe's shoesbefore where this week, this is
the feature that we're going tobe working on, and next week I
just heard from a customer. Andso we're all switching our
(06:08):
attention to this new feature.
And it's like, well, hold on asecond. Can we make some
priorities? Right. Did youforget about the one we talked
about two weeks ago? Becausetoday's one is more important.
And so I've been that developertrying to keep up. And I've
also been on the, themanagement side trying to have
that bigger picture and tryingto say, "okay, from my vantage
point, what are the priorities?
(06:28):
What are the most importantthings to be working on?" So it
can be a real challenge forsure.
Sean Murray (06:34):
Absolutely.
Troy Blaser (06:35):
Well, let's talk for just a minute about your
book. If Gold is Our Destiny,how a team of Mavericks Came
Together for Olympic Glory isthe subtitle. This one was
fascinating to me. I mentionedkind of before we started
recording, I'm, I would say avolleyball enthusiast. I've
played volleyball for manyyears. Had the opportunity to
(06:56):
play ball with a couple of theperiphery characters in the
book, not necessarily thoseamazing athletes that were on
that 1984 team. So for me, thevolleyball was interesting, but
I also enjoyed the leadershipand team lessons that you
pulled out of that story. Andwere able to apply across a
broader way of working that allof us will face in our careers,
(07:19):
in our jobs, things like that.
One of the, the interestingepisodes that you related in
the book was this experiencethat the team took as part of
Outward Bound spending threeweeks in the mountains of
Southern Utah. And you talkabout the obstacles that they
had to overcome as part of thatexperience and how that helped
them work together as a team.
(07:41):
So it was an amazing story. Arethere some lessons that we can
take from reading about thatOutward Bound experience, ways
that leaders can help develop acohesive and resilient team in
our own environments?
Sean Murray (07:53):
I think absolutely there are, you know , this team
was struggling when the coach,coach Doug Beal decided to make
this momentous decision reallyto take the team on an outward
bound three week through themountains of southern Utah in
the middle of winter course.
Troy Blaser (08:11):
This was not the typical way that a volleyball
team gets ready for theOlympics.
Sean Murray (08:16):
Yes. And that was pointed out by the players many
times, back to the coaches ,that this is the, the early
1980s, this is leading up tothe 1984 Olympics in Los
Angeles. So this was 1982 whenthe idea was being thrown
around. It was 1983, January of83 when they went, when they
finally decided to go on theOutward Bound, which is about
(08:36):
18 months before the Olympics.
So yeah, it's not the typical.
And so there was a initialresistance by the players. To
your point, the question thatwas surfaced was, how is this
going to help us become bettervolleyball players? Don't we
get better at volleyball bygetting in the gym and working
on the skills we need to workon, get better at passing or
(08:59):
whatever the skill is orsetting? Isn't that what we
need to be doing? And that wasthe question that was thrown
back at the coaches. And, andto the coach's credit, they
were thinking a little further.
They, they really thought thatthere was a culture issue, that
what the team needed to do waswork on being a team. And that
requires building trust. Andthe trust wasn't always there
(09:22):
with this team. Something wasmissing. And they knew because
they had such incredibletalent. This was a amazing
generation of Americanvolleyball players, a lot of
them playing on the beach. Theygot to this point in their
career. They were focused onthe indoor game because that's
the only Olympic volleyballsport there was at the time.
And you know, you mightremember, some of your
(09:43):
listeners might remember KarchKarily, who was a big name in
the eighties and probably, youknow , the Michael Jordan of
volleyball. You probably , andsome other big names from that
team. But they had a lot oftalent, but they weren't
winning. They had just come in13th, I think, in the World
championships a few monthsbefore they went on this trip.
And, and they really shouldn'thave been 13th. They should
(10:03):
have been in the top four orfive teams at that point with
their talent, but they weren'tplaying well together. And
that's one of the lessons Ipulled from just writing about
this team, is something thatthe coach told me about this
period in figuring out who wasgoing to be on the team. He
said , it's not the bestplayers, it's the best players
who can play together as ateam. And his role as a coach
(10:25):
was to create the culture andthe environment and of course
the offensive systems and, andthat sort of thing. But, so
that was the nature of makingthis decision to go on Outward
Bound. Of course, you had toget the players to sort of buy
in. And the way they did thatwas basically to say, look, if
you don't go on this OutwardBound, I can't guarantee you're
going to be on the team. And itwas that ticket, that golden
(10:45):
ticket of getting to theOlympics that they wanted. And
so a lot of them said, "okay,I'm going to do what it takes."
So that was the context. Butwhen they get out into the
Outward Bound, I think learningabout each other, trust , uh,
even some feedback to eachother, there were a lot of
things that happened out there,relying on each other to
survive and getting out of yourregular comfort zone and your
(11:10):
regular routine and gettinginto a different environment.
Now , I'll give a coupleexamples. You're based in Utah,
so you know, there's a lot ofsnow down there in the Abajo
Mountains in Monticello. Andthis was a particularly snowy
year, so they snowshoe and sothey were breaking trail, so
someone on the team had to beout front. If you've ever snows
shooted , then , you know it'sa lot harder to be that person
(11:32):
out front. They could breaktrail for a while and they had
50 pound packs on. I mean,they're packing everything in.
So this was not a easyendeavor. And the person out
front is at a high elevation.
You know, they're used toliving at sea level in Los
Angeles In San Diego. Sothey're at a high level, and
they would take turns breakingtrails. So that part of it,
(11:54):
just to get from point A topoint B, you had to work
together. And when they got towherever they were getting to
that evening, it was aftermaybe 10 or 12 miles of hiking.
Sometimes someone had to set upthe tent, you know, someone had
to get ready for dinner,someone had to gather some
firewood for a fire, andeveryone had their role. And
together they survived. And atthe end of the day, they would
(12:16):
sit around the fire and talk,and then they would get up and
do it all again the next day.
And they started to see eachother in ways that were a
little different than on thevolleyball court, because on
the volleyball court there's a,there's sort of a hierarchy in
any sport, right? Where there'sthe starters and there's the
people that are kind of at thetop of the pecking order. And
then you go all down to thepeople that come off the bench
and it got all jumbled becausemaybe the person who comes in
(12:38):
off the bench and has a veryspecific role might be the most
important person because theyknow how to navigate or they
know how to cook, or they knowhow to set the tent up. And so
they, they saw each other indifferent ways. And when they
came out of this experience, Ibelieve there was a lot more
trust and stronger bonds andrelationships between the
(12:59):
players. And that led to awhole level of innovation and
creativity about how to playthe game of volleyball. They
developed something called theAmerican system, which is still
used today. And if you talk tocoaches from other
international programs, theywill still point to this 1984
team as a real turning point inthe sport of how they
(13:20):
approached volleyball. And Idon't think the creativity, the
flourishing, and of coursegoing on to spoiler alert, they
win the gold medal. You know, Idon't think it would've
happened without that sort ofinteraction.
Troy Blaser (13:33):
You mentioned in the book too, it provided a
common experience foreverybody. Some team members
were, you know, from Ohio, fromthe Midwest, some were from
southern California. There wasa little bit of a culture clash
there and getting everybody offtogether in a new experience
that was common to everybody onthe team, kind of gave them a
(13:55):
new basis for relating to eachother too.
Sean Murray (13:58):
Yes. Yeah. That common shared experience, in
fact, when the coaches dreamedup this idea, what they
originally wanted to do, and myfather was involved in that too
because my father was the teampsychologist that was working
with Doug Beal . And so they,they said what we need is a
(14:20):
shared significant lifeexperience, which I think is
getting to this common sharedexperience you're talking
about. And doing somethingtogether maybe outside of the
norm that allows you to again,build trust form relationships.
It was really important forthis team to do that. And, and
maybe to circle around to youroriginal question, okay, well
(14:40):
what does that mean to us?
Building teams and working inour corporations? Well, we
don't all have the luxury to gooff for three weeks and whatnot
, but this is where you oftensee the offsite, you know, get
out of the office environment.
It's so important. If you'regoing to have maybe talk about
strategy or do some teambuilding, do it somewhere
(15:02):
outside of the regular confinesif you can, you know, go out,
do some bowling or go on a ahike, go to Topgolf, do some
kind of activity and just havesome fun. And that sort of
activity can buildrelationships and get people to
see each other in differentways that they don't see each
other in the office. Get toknow each other in a way that's
(15:25):
outside of the typicalcorporate peer relationship
where you share an obstacle youovercame in your life or
something other people mightnot know about you. Or some
significance as a manager, youcan ask your team, let's just
go around and share. And youshare first as the manager or
the leader. And then you inviteyour team to talk and you'd be
(15:45):
amazed at what you're going tohear and the connections that
people might forge that theyotherwise might not if they
didn't have the opportunity tohave that kind of conversation.
Troy Blaser (15:57):
Yeah. It sounds like after Outward Bound, as
they approached the Olympicsthat were coming, you know, a
year and a half later thatathletes developed more trust
in the coaches. And youmentioned in the book, they
learned to listen to their owncrazy ideas. They weren't
afraid to look foolish. Therewere times when the coaches
would come up with someparticular drills that were out
(16:19):
of the box. And those athletes,because of that trust they had
developed, they said, okay,we'll try it and see what
happens. So there was kind of apsychological safety happening
there. Are there ways that aleader in an organization can
create that same kind ofpsychological safety for team
members to be able to takerisks?
Sean Murray (16:40):
I like the term psychological safety. It is
what these coaches created atthat time through the Outward
Bound experience and just howthey approached practices and
working with the players earlyon. The coach Doug Beal said
one of the keys to success wasthat we weren't afraid to look
foolish. And that was acontagious thing that the
(17:02):
players took on too. And Ithink that's important for any
kind of creativity orinnovation that you have to be
willing to put yourself outthere. And for that you have to
have trust in yourself, trustin each other, and your own
crazy ideas and willingness tolearn. You know, I guess it's a
form of feedback. You go outthere and, and maybe you fail,
(17:22):
but you learn and you moveforward. And that attitude was
so important for the team toget to where they needed to go
to be the best in the world atwhat they do. And as I relate
that back to working with teamsand businesses today as a
leader or a manager, if you cancreate that atmosphere, you're
going to get better ideas.
(17:43):
You're going to get peoplebought in to new ideas and to
change. And some tips for doingthat are building a place where
there's a high level of trust.
It starts with having aapproach of vulnerability as a
leader, you know, if you comein and you lead from a sort of
command and control and anauthority, you're not going to
(18:06):
get the kind of creativityinnovation you're looking for.
But if you approach it as,okay, I'm looking for all of
your ideas. I don't have allthe answers, I am here to
facilitate the best decision.
So I want to hear from all ofyou, what do we want to do with
this obstacle? Do we want to dothis merger or not? Or how do
(18:27):
we want to approach thisstrategic partnership? Let's
get the best ideas out thereand if it's crazy, okay, let's
talk about it. You know,sometimes the best ideas that
get thrown out in these kind ofsessions are ideas that aren't
fully formed yet, and sotherefore they're a little
impractical and kind of crazy.
But as a manager, you can shootthem down pretty quick if you
(18:49):
want to because they are maybenot fully formed. But if you
have the psychological safety,that's an opportunity to learn.
"Okay, tell me more about thatidea. What do we like about
it?" Questions like that, thatget to building the cohesion
and the togetherness that youneed as a team.
Troy Blaser (19:08):
You talked about leading with vulnerability and
being open to those kinds ofsuggestions. And now thinking
back to the story of the team,I was thinking about the
coaches thinking about DougBeal and the assistant coaches
as well as I read the book, andyou can tell me if you have
other insights too, but itseems like there was that
(19:29):
vulnerability between the headcoach, Doug Beal and his
assistants in terms of himlistening to their ideas. Do
you feel like there was thatvulnerability between the
coaches and the players? Or didthat have to develop over a
much longer period for theteam?
Sean Murray (19:47):
That's a really good question. And there were
two main coaches, Doug Bealand, and there was assistant
Bill Neville, and I think BillNeville was better at creating
the vulnerability and was moreof a player's coach and was
there to develop really strongrelationships with the players.
(20:08):
He's the kind of guy that doesthat naturally. People
gravitate to him and he's justthe kind of coach that really
loves his players. Players lovehim. And we've probably all had
coaches like that in our wives.
Doug Beal was a little bit moreemotionally removed from the
players because he had thefinal decision to make about
(20:29):
who was going to be on the teamand who wasn't going to be on
on the team. And he felt likethey didn't want his emotions
to cloud this judgment on thatdecision. And so he did, I
think have a little more spacebetween him. Now it's like he's
one of the guys, I was just ata reunion of this team. His
relationship now with theplayers is much different as
(20:50):
you've probably imagine, youknow, 40 some years later. But
he was a little bit emotionallyremoved, but the coaches went
on the Outward Bound too. Idon't know if I mentioned that.
And I think that's an importantpart of what was going on here,
is that they were willing to doall the things that they were
asking the players to do, andthey were willing to put
themselves out there in otherways. Maybe like for example,
(21:14):
feedback. One of the ways thatthe team gave feedback to one
another was the players wouldwrite down on four by six cards
what they liked and what theydidn't like about what the
coaches were doing. And thecoaches would do the same with
the players. And then thatwould go to, my father was as
the team psychologist. We werefiltering through these cards
(21:35):
and then we'd get everyonetogether and say, okay, let's
talk about this one. Sofeedback was going both ways,
which was not typical forcoaches back in that day. It
was sort of like , I'm thecoach, I know how to coach
volleyball, you listen to me.
But it wasn't working withthese players. They were more
mature, they were independentthinkers. They had their own
(21:56):
ideas, they were vulnerable,they were open to feedback,
they were criticized by theplayers in certain ways and
what they were doing. And theymade adjustments based on the
feedback. And I think that's,to their credit, and I'm sure
contributed to their success.
Troy Blaser (22:11):
Maybe that's part of what makes a great coach or
a great leader, is finding theright balance, knowing when to
hear that feedback that'scoming from the players or the
team members. And then knowingthe right decision to make
based on that feedback. Becauseobviously the coaches got a lot
of feedback of, "we don't wantto go on Outward Bound. We
don't think that's a goodidea." Right. They listened to
(22:32):
that, but they still did theactivity. But like you say,
there were other times whenthey got feedback from the team
and said, "yeah, this time weneed to do what these athletes
are wanting."
Sean Murray (22:42):
Yeah. That's a great insight. That is the,
that's the art of leadership.
Knowing when to listen, when topush back a little bit. There
are other times when theplayers said that the coaches
pushed them harder than theywanted to be pushed. I'm sure
there was some pushback on, dowe really need to do this drill
12 times? Do we really need todo all this weight training or
(23:03):
physical, whatever it was. AndDoug Beal pushed those players
harder than they wanted to bepushed and it wasn't
comfortable, but they're verygrateful now. That he did that
because they have that goldmedal that changed their life.
Troy Blaser (23:15):
Absolutely. So I was curious, as I was getting
ready for our conversationtoday, I know that your father
was involved with the team asthe team psychologist and that
your father wasn't necessarilya volleyball expert. How much
did you know about the game ofvolleyball before you started
writing the book?
Sean Murray (23:34):
Not very much. Not as much as I really needed to
know to write at the highlevel. But luckily I had the
help of people around the team.
Including Doug Beel and BillNeville to coach me on what was
important in the game. And I'velearned a lot about the game
over time and it's , uh, sothere was a lot of learning I
had to do as well. And ofcourse it always surprised me
(23:56):
that my dad was involved in avolleyball , uh, because he
wasn't a volleyball player .
You know, he, he definitelystood out if you put him in, if
you lined up all the volleyballplayers and you , you know , my
dad was not that tall and , apretty good athlete in his
younger days, but by this timehe really wasn't. And so I had
to learn a lot. And volleyballis very much a team sport.
(24:20):
That's something that I tookaway is just how critical it is
to be a team in volleyballbecause one person can't go
one-on-one.
Troy Blaser (24:31):
Right. Yeah.
Sean Murray (24:32):
It's not like the NBA where you can kind of pass
to your best player and thatplayer can
Troy Blaser (24:37):
Clear out everybody else out.
Sean Murray (24:38):
Yeah clear out, let these to do the pick and
roll and, and it may maybe themost team-based sport in the
world. I'm sure there's somearguments there, but I would
say the way the other team candictate where they put the ball
to start any sort of rally oranything like that, if you have
a weak link on your team, youknow, it's so you have to work
(24:59):
together. That was one thingthat the players learned.
Again, this came out of afeedback session where the
players realized that how theyreact to a mistake was so
important to the psyche and tothe, the momentum and to the,
on the court culture they'retrying to create. Because there
(25:20):
were times when someone made amistake, they would get the
sort of stare down , like, whatare you doing? How could you
let that happen? They had toovercome that and realize , we
can't do that anymore. That ifsomeone makes a mistake, we
come together, we got this,don't worry, we'll get the next
one. Put that out of your mind.
We're a team, let's get rightback at it. And so they learned
how to give each other feedbackon the court in real time in a
(25:43):
way that preserved theirculture on the court and
hopefully preserved theirconfidence in one another so
that they could win. Volleyballis a game of momentum swing .
Troy Blaser (25:52):
Yeah, very much so. So Sean , sometimes in the
work that I do, I willencounter an organization with
a culture that is resistant tofeedback, which is
understandable. It can beanxiety inducing to think I'm
going to open myself up to allof this feedback and who knows
what's going to happen. Arethere strategies that you can
(26:12):
share with us for leaders tohelp them effectively handle
this kind of feedbackresistance in their teams?
Sean Murray (26:19):
Well, that's a good question. I think there's
probably various contexts, butone thing that comes to mind is
making the case for change, youknow , I think of the John
Kotter and his work aroundchange and he talks about the
burning platform. And you know,sometimes what people need to
hear when they have resistanceto change is that what's
(26:40):
awaiting for you if you don'taccept the feedback, it's
potentially irrelevance for theway that the world is, is
moving. Another tack I mighttake as a leader is building
the case for, it's theorganization that learns and is
agile and can accept feedbackand get better. That is going
to be the most powerfulorganization. And you want to
(27:03):
try to build a culture that'saccepting of that. It doesn't
mean that everything you hearfrom feedback is completely
valid. You got to put itthrough your own filter as far
as validity and how to use thatfeedback. But for the most
part, it's the organizationthat is willing to evolve, to
innovate open to creativity tochange that's going to be
(27:26):
successful in this world that'schanging so fast, where if you
don't change, then in mostindustries there's going to be
some sort of irrelevance comingpretty quickly.
Troy Blaser (27:37):
You talked earlier about when the volleyball team
went on the Outward Boundexperience, the coaches
participated in thatexperience. I think there's
value in that example beingset. So if you're in an
organization that is mayberesistant to change, there's
value in setting that exampleas the team leader, as the
manager of receiving thatfeedback and doing it in a way
(27:58):
that's visible to say, here'sthe feedback that I've
received. Here are the changesthat I'm trying to make. That
can, I think, go a long waytowards breaking that
resistance down if, if folkssense that there's no hypocrisy
going on.
Sean Murray (28:13):
I think that's a great point. I mean, if you can
show and demonstrate that,look, I am open to feedback,
I'm listening, I'm trying toget better. I know the feedback
is helping me get better. Idon't always want to hear it, I
don't always believe it rightaway, but I, I am trying to do
that and I'm asking you to dothe same. I'm asking us as a
culture and as a team to usefeedback as a way to validate
(28:37):
where we're going and to getbetter. I think that's a great
example. And , and certainly Ithink the coaches did do that
and demonstrated, and I don'tthink it would've been
successful if the coacheswould've sent them off on the
Outward Bound and said, well,we're going to be, you know ,
in Hawaii during that time,taking a little r and r , I
don't think it would've worked.
And they, to their credit, theywere out there and it was not
easy. I should probably mentionI talked about that earlier,
(29:00):
less , and it's not the bestplayers, it's the best players
who can play together as ateam. And there was a very
talented player who didn't wantto go on the Outward Bound and
ended up opting out of theOutward Bound and went against
what the coaches were askingthe players to do. And
eventually that player didn'tmake it on the team. And so
they did look a little foolishin the short run, but it looked
(29:22):
like a genius move in the longrun when they won the gold
medal and they were a strongerteam because they became a
team. There's that saying thatthe power of the wolf is the
pack . They became this teamthat was much better because
everyone was bought in andeveryone was fully committed,
Troy Blaser (29:41):
Not only because of Outward Bound, but even the
whole culture going back intothe sixties and seventies. The
men's national team athleteswould come together a few
months before a tournament andhave some practices and then go
to the tournament andultimately not do very well.
And so part of what Doug Bealdid was elevate the team in
(30:03):
importance and say, if you'regoing to be on the team, you've
got to be committed to it.
We're going to practice four tosix hours a day every day. And
it's a year round commitment.
It's not just come together sixmonths before some tournament.
Sean Murray (30:17):
Yeah. And you got to put the success of the team
above yourself. And , and maybethat was another lesson that
came out of Outward Bound and ,and any great team eventually
to be the best at what you doand the best in the world, you
have to have a group of peoplethat are committed to the
success of the team. Andsometimes that requires a
little sacrifice and sometimesthat means that your ego
(30:40):
doesn't get fulfilled in theway personally you might want
it to because you got to thinkabout the success of the team.
And that might mean spending alittle more time on the bench
and having someone else outthere or giving credit to
someone else and I think allgreat teams get there
eventually, the world's litterwith teams that don't get there
because the egos get in theway.
Troy Blaser (31:01):
Yeah. I wonder, Sean , in the work that you do
with real-time performance, arethere some common
misconceptions about leadershipthat you encounter?
Sean Murray (31:09):
You know, one of the misconceptions that I see a
lot, and I think I also kind offell prey to this early in my
career, is that leaders need tobe liked by everyone. I think I
overly emphasized trying to winpeople over in every situation
and have everyone be, you know,happy and satisfied with every
(31:32):
outcome. Because I'm sort of apleaser. I want people to feel
good about where we're goingand feel good about my
leadership, what's happening.
And really in leadership,there's going to be people and
individuals in times whenthere's disagreement about uh,
direction or you might have tohave a really difficult
(31:53):
feedback conversation. And Ithink learning to overcome that
and to put yourself above maybethe emotional challenges of,
"okay, I've got to go have adifficult conversation with
this person." And that sort ofgoes against the, "Hey, this is
all great and we're going tohave , you know, work together
(32:14):
as a team to win a gold medal."And that's the kind of stuff
that I get enthused by. But youdon't get that unless you also
are able to have thosedifficult conversations and
realize not everyone's going tolike me all the time. Not
everyone's going to agree witheverything that I do. And you
have to get comfortable withthat as a leader. And some
(32:34):
people maybe are born naturallythat way. I wasn't. So I can
relate to people that have abit of a challenge with that.
And I think we need more ofthat in our society, in our
cultures, in our organizations,just leaders that are willing
to help people face reality andhelp them improve. You know,
often it's those difficultconversations that help people
(32:57):
figure out maybe this isn't theright place for them to work or
this is the right place, butthey've got to really get
committed. And as leaders, yougot to, you got to step up and
have those conversations. Notalways fun, but they're so
important to being a highfunctioning leader and a team.
Troy Blaser (33:13):
Yeah. There's a difference between a leader and
a friend and there's someoverlap there, but not
entirely. And ultimately in thelong term , we want leaders who
are willing to make thosedifficult decisions, even when
we don't always agree. Theathletes on the volleyball team
wanted a coach who would pushthem to do workouts that they
(33:35):
didn't want to do because ofthe long-term goal.
Sean Murray (33:39):
Yes, I totally agree with that, Troy, that we
crave that sort of leader, eventhough in the short term or at
times we go, "man, that thatleader's tough." Like my very
first boss was a verychallenging, hard nosed bond .
I love the guy to death, but hewasn't afraid to tell me where,
where I was going wrong, but Iwas doing something wrong or
(34:01):
that he thought I needed to do, uh, work harder or be more
committed. And when I look backat my career, I think how much
I grew under that leadership.
It's amazing. But it wasn'talways easy at the time. And I
think I complained about him afew times, but you know, when I
look back on, he's still a goodfriend of mine and a mentor to
(34:21):
me and and that's the kind ofleader that really pushes you
to grow and excel.
Troy Blaser (34:27):
Yeah. Well, so you wrote the book couple of years
ago and I know there was a lotof time and effort spent on the
research and the writing of thebook and getting it published.
If gold is our destiny, it's afantastic story. Are there some
projects, is there somethingyou're working on right now
that you're especiallypassionate about that you can
share with us?
Sean Murray (34:47):
Well, I have some ideas and some projects early
on for a follow on book. Ihaven't really talked about
that publicly yet, but what I'mreally excited about as a
follow on with this book, I"fGold is our Destiny", is that
there's a group in Hollywoodthat's picked it up that they
would like to make adocumentary about the story.
(35:11):
And so we're in the earlystages right now, but we did do
some interviews and I wasrecently in Long Beach when the
team got together for a reunionand we got in front of a camera
and there were a number ofinterviews. And so this story
is hopefully going to be toldin another format, in a
documentary format, which Ithink could appeal to maybe a
(35:33):
wider audience. Not everybodywants to read a book and a lot
of people love the documentaryformat. There's a lot of great
sports documentaries. Thereseems to be a lot of interest.
I think we learn so much fromstories from athletics. I'm
excited that this mightactually get out there. Maybe,
you know, on one of thosestreaming services down the
(35:53):
road, you might see this story.
It may not have the title "IfGold is Our Destiny", so be
open to others. But they'vehired me to help with the
research and be involved in theproject. I'm really excited
about it's,
Troy Blaser (36:06):
That's exciting.
I'll definitely watch for that.
We definitely need more footageof those stylish 1980s short
shorts , uh, that the all thevolleyball teams wore, right?
Sean Murray (36:18):
That's right.
Yeah, they definitely had it'slike the Boston Celtics Lake
series in eighties inbasketball. The same thing was
going on in volleyball. Yeah.
They did recently reissue the84 men's volleyball , um,
jersey that they wore Uhhuh tocommemorate the team that it
was 40 years ago this summerthat they won their gold medal.
(36:40):
And the Olympics are comingback to Los Angeles in 2028.
And so there's going to be, Ibelieve, more interest in this
team because nine of the 12players were from the Southern
California, Los Angeles area.
They were sort of the hometownboys, the hometown team in 84.
And they went against the oddsto win this gold medal in 84
and it was a big deal for thecity. And now the Olympics are
(37:03):
coming back to la And so I hopethere's a little resurgence in
the team. And I think thiscompany that wants to do the
documentary, I think they'rehoping for a little resurgence
too.
Troy Blaser (37:11):
Well, good luck to you on that project. That
sounds exciting. Sean , ifpeople want to know more, if
they want to connect with youto continue the kinds of
conversations that we've beenhaving, what should they do?
How should they reach out toyou?
Sean Murray (37:24):
Well, my website is and yeah , I'm also on
LinkedIn. If you look up SeanP. Murray and RealTime
Performance, or "If Golden AreDestiny", you'll find me, and
I'm happy to connect withpeople. Would love to have
further conversations if otherswant to learn more about the
book or lessons from the bookor what I do to help
(37:46):
organizations.
Troy Blaser (37:47):
Fantastic. Sean , thanks so much for being with
us today. I appreciate it.
Thanks,
Sean Murray (37:51):
Troy. It was a great conversation. Have a
great day.
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