January 15, 2025 • 33 mins
Lori Riznek is an Associate Professor at the University of Toronto. While being a favorite with students, she also has deep expertise in leadership development and organizational effectiveness and has dedicated her career to fostering leadership skills and enhancing team dynamics. As a consultant and executive coach, Lori helps organizations build strong feedback cultures and improve employee engagement. In today’s episode of Simply Feedback, I’m excited to learn from her decades of insights on leadership and high-performing teams in today’s evolving workplace.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
I really think it's important to always remember
when we're preparing to eithergive or receive feedback, that
we have our own uniqueperspective and the person to
whom we're speaking has theirs.
And to some extent, those twowill cross and they will also
be very different. And if wedon't spend time either
(00:28):
thinking about or exploring theways in which those
perspectives are complimentaryand different, then our
feedback giving and receivingis going to be suboptimal.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to Simply Feedback thepodcast brought to you by
Learning Bridge . I'm your hostTroy Blazer, and I'm excited to
be with you. I'm happy tointroduce Lori Rizek. Lori is
an associate professor at theUniversity of Toronto, while
being a favorite with students,she also has deep expertise in
leadership development andorganizational effectiveness.
(01:08):
And she has dedicated hercareer to fostering leadership
skills and enhancing teamdynamics. As a consultant and
executive coach, Lori helpsorganizations build strong
feedback cultures and improveemployee engagement. So in
today's episode of SimplyFeedback, I am excited to learn
from her decades of insights onleadership and high performing
(01:29):
teams in today's evolvingworkplace. Lori , welcome to
Simply Feedback. It's so greatto have you with us today.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Thank you very much, Troy. That was a very generous
introduction,
Speaker 2 (01:40):
. Well, it's
true. And I'm looking forward
to our conversation. I wonder,could you tell us about maybe a
time in your life when youreceived some feedback, maybe
it had an impact on yourcareer, on your personal life?
Is there a story that you couldshare with us regarding
feedback?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Whoa,, are
you starting with a hard
question or
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I , I guess it depends on the feedback, right?
?
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well, as a university professor, I get
feedback every four months.
. Mm-hmm . I have to say that it is a
sobering moment. Having taughtfour 40 years, I still both
look forward to and have acertain element of nervous
butterflies when I open upthose evaluations to see what
they have to say. 'causeinvariably I find there's
(02:27):
always something that'ssurprising and something that I
can learn from the feedback. SoI thought , uh, maybe I would
talk about two examples, if youdon't mind. Sure . And I'll try
and make them short. The firstone, I'll go into the academic
world. I , um, years ago had avery, very talented PhD student
(02:48):
who was assigned to me as myteaching assistant. And it was
at a time in history whenprofessors were starting to
migrate from being the , uh,sage on the stage to a new
style of more engagement,student oriented feedback.
Mm-hmm . And so Iwas practicing my skills at
designing new formats for how Iran a three hour class. And at
(03:12):
the end of this particularclass, I was quite pleased with
my outcome. I thought, oh,that's really cool, and I think
that's working. So afterwards Isaid to my ta, would you give
me some feedback, please. Ithink the class went well, but
what did you think? And shevery generously said, well,
Speaker 2 (03:34):
a slow well
is a, is a scary start to a
sentence. Right. It was
Speaker 1 (03:39):
A slow, well with a very large, you know, comma at
the end of it,. And hercomment was that she thought
that the material and my energyand my stories were extremely
well received by the students.
But her point, which was soinsightful, it just really made
(03:59):
me stand back, was that I knewin my mind where I was going
with the lecture, but thestudents didn't know where I
was going. So they didn't havea mental map that they could
follow along and see how onepart of the lecture sort of led
in , created the context forthe next. And I thought that
that was just like, wow. Spoton gift that I received. So I
(04:24):
went back to my drawing boardand started all over again. And
every lecture I've given as aresult I think really benefited
from that advice ,
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Kind of having that roadmap . Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was such an obvious piece,
right? And because I had to sitdown and think about the
roadmap, I also could thinkabout where did I need to give
a better example or where couldI tell a story or ask a
question that would really bothreengage the student, but also
give me an opportunity to checkthat what I was saying was
(04:56):
resonating with them, that theywere following along as I had
hoped they would or askingquestions, et cetera. So that
was a very positive feedback.
Yeah . Experience . The otherone, actually, I was fortunate
enough, early in my career towork as a manager in a
government agency up here inCanada at the federal level. I
(05:17):
had a role where I was asked tostart a new team and introduce
at the time a strategicplanning process. So those were
back in the dark, you know, ageof dinosaurs kind of thing,
where the process followed afiscal year. And I was really
focused on trying to create aprocess that was gonna work
(05:37):
across all these variousgovernments. So I hired my team
of people and I got really busyand it was, it was a hard sell
'cause people weren'taccustomed to this stranger
coming in teaching me how todesign a strategy process,
telling me it had to be done inFebruary and I had to do this
in April, et cetera. Mm-hmm . But I felt
really good about the work andthe team. And in the division
(05:59):
where I worked, there werethree other managers. And this
was my first time leading ateam. So I thought we were
doing very well. And one day mydirector called me in for some,
some feedback. So I thought, oh, this is gonna be really good.
Right?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
, uh oh ,
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Just, you know, pop me on the back and tell me it
was great. And he did and hedidn't. So he said that I had
successfully created a verystrong and cohesive, highly
motivated, very resultsoriented insular team. So I was
(06:39):
like, oh my. And he reminded methat my team existed in a
broader context, namely theother two teams who were in our
division. And that our workcouldn't be successful with one
team being successful. And italso couldn't be successful if
that one team thought they weresuperstars Yeah.
(07:03):
Relative to everybody else. Andit just was like one of those
moments where you kind of hityour forehead and go, oh wow.
It's a system. It's a systemand we're all part of it and
you can't be an island ofsuccess. You know, you have to
be a whole globe of success, soto speak. Yeah. And that really
caused me to reflect a lot onwhat I thought my role was as a
(07:28):
leader, not only with my team,but with my colleagues, my
peers, and with my keystakeholders that I was trying
to sell this strategic planningprocess too . So it was hard
feedback to hear and it took mea little while to emotionally
let go of the feedback andstart to look at it as
(07:51):
potentially something that Icould learn from and ultimately
really changed my approach to,to leading.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Those are fascinating stories. It seems
like, as I listen to you tellthem, what occurs to me is that
it has a little bit to do withperspective. In the first
story, you had a , a uniqueperspective that the other
students and the TA didn't haveand that you knew the whole
story from beginning to end.
'cause it was your, your story.
(08:17):
And the TA was able to pointout that, hey, the students
have a little bit differentperspective, they don't know
the end yet, so it's moredifficult for them to sort of
follow along and , andunderstand where you're trying
to go. And then in the secondstory, you had a perspective
that was focused on your teamas it rightfully so, and you
did a fantastic job on thatteam, you know , creating a
(08:41):
very cohesive team that workedwell together. But that
director could see multipleteams and said, Hey, from my
perspective, you need tobroaden out a little bit. And
so to me it's an interestinglesson on perspective.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
I think choosing the word perspective is a very good
one and probably veryappropriate given what we're
talking about. Because I reallythink it's important to always
remember when we're preparingto either give or receive
feedback that we have our ownunique perspective. Yeah . And
the person to whom we'respeaking has theirs. And to
(09:19):
some extent those two willcross and they will also be
very different. Yeah . And ifwe don't spend time either
thinking about or exploring theways in which those
perspectives are complimentaryand different, then our
feedback giving and receivingis going to be suboptimal.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah. In the first story, you sought out that
feedback from the ta, yourecognized that your
perspective was unique as theprofessor. And so you said, I
need to get some feedback fromsomeone who is seeing things
differently than I am. And theywere able to point out kind of
a blind spot for you. And soit's important I think, to
remember, Hey, let me stop andget feedback from someone with
(10:03):
a different perspective. Mm-hmm . Well, I love
that you shared a story fromyour time as a professor. You
teach organizational behaviorat the University of Toronto
and Canada. Is that right?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yes. And I've also been able to teach in Iceland ,
uh Okay . In the executive MBAprogram. And I also teach in
Italy , uh, Sienna at theuniversity there, where Oh wow
. We try to look at culturaldifferences in leadership and
what we perceive the leader'srole to be.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Interesting. Very global kind of perspective. And
I know you've also consultedwith organizations
professionally, you know,around the globe as well. So
Lori , besides the differencein experience level, what are
some of the differences inperspective and priorities that
you see between the studentsthat you work with and maybe
the older professionals as youinteract with them?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
The one thing that really stands out for me with
the students, especially Iwould say at the more
undergraduate level, is thatthey are really hungry for high
quality feedback so that theycan assess whether or not what
they were trying to accomplishin writing an assignment as an
example, was actually seen inthe same way by the professor.
(11:20):
And also one of the things thatI've really learned over the
years is that people are notparticularly good at
understanding what theirstrengths are. Hmm . So they're
always looking for somebody tosay to them, actually, you have
a very good analytical approachto a particular topic, or the
(11:40):
questions that you ask in theclassroom are very insightful.
And I know that because otherstudents shake their head when
you ask the question or ittakes us to a new part of the
conversation. That's the kindof feedback that the more
junior student just can't getenough of mm-hmm
. Because it's offered veryinfrequently. Alternatively, in
(12:04):
due respect to the more seniorexecutives in the MBA classes,
they bring , uh, unique set ofexperiences against which they
can bounce off new ideas orconcepts that you present and
decide for themselves whetheror not they agree or they're
applicable in theircircumstance. But one of the
(12:26):
things, again, in all duerespect, is that I do see this
thing that I call hardening ofthe categories a lot more among
the senior people in the room.
In that, in that our mindsetshave a tendency to become a
little bit more , uh, set asthe experiences we have tend to
(12:48):
reinforce what those mindsetsare. Yeah . For the good and
for the bad. So that whensomeone comes along with , um,
a new idea, it's not always aneasy sell, which is something
that we need to keep in mind, Ithink when we're giving
feedback in general, is that wemight feel really excited about
this opportunity, let's say, asa leader to give feedback to
(13:10):
someone, but it's notnecessarily something that the
person who's on the receivingend is really going to accept.
So I'd say this thing calledopen-mindedness is a dramatic
difference. Similarly, when youas an external consultant go
into an organization, and thisrelates to two points that I
wanna make, the culture withinthat environment determines, I
(13:33):
think a lot about perspective.
So in some organizations whenwe go in, people greet us with
open arms because they see theexternal consultant as not
having that historical view ofwhat's happened in the
organization. So it's a freshlook and perhaps it's a fresh
way of looking at data oranalyzing problems, et cetera.
(13:54):
And so in certain culturesthat's very much welcome. In
other organizational cultures,I would say it's more
cautiously approached as well,I'm gonna be more critical of
this because we had to bring inthis external person who
perhaps is there becausethey're judging that what we
did previously was not valued .
(14:16):
I think the second point Iwanna make is that I have
learned over the years thatthere are huge cultural
differences at the macro andmicro level that you need to
pay attention to. And in somecultures, for example, people
are much more accustomed toreceiving information, not
(14:37):
necessarily critically thinkingabout information and deciding
if they wanna convert that intoinsight or into something that
they can work with and , anduse in their room. And I , I'm
thinking in particular of anexperience I had, I was working
with a bunch of 20 or so seniorleaders, two of whom were
women. And at one of the breaksI happened to be in the ladies
(15:01):
room, along with one of theparticipants who was clearly
very emotionally upset mm-hmm . And I asked
her, you know, are you okay?
What's happening? And she said,this is just so out of cultural
appropriateness for me that I'mhaving a really hard time
handling our session. I reallywant to be open-minded to what
(15:23):
you have to say, but it's, I'mhaving a hard time doing that
because I feel I can't reallyask questions in the way that I
might like to, becauseculturally that would not be
received particularly well.
Interesting. And it was like,wow. Yeah. Yeah. I , I came , I
came out of that break reallywith a different mindset myself
(15:44):
for how I was gonna continue torun the session. So yes, there
are huge differences I think inperspective between
professionals and students and,and across cultures. Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (15:55):
. At
the college level, they've come
up through primary secondaryeducation all about the
feedback. Ultimately, what ismy grade going to be for this
course ? Right. Like you say,they're very much in the realm
of receiving feedback, butthose older professionals, it's
less of a blank slate. What aresome ways that we can keep an
open mind as maybe we're in themode of receiving feedback?
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I think for me, trust is the most important
word when it comes to beingable to both give and receive
feedback, is that you have tohave a foundation in a
relationship built on trust forpeople to be able to open up to
it. And I can give you anynumber of examples where that
(16:41):
trust has been absent and thefeedback, while really good,
high quality , legitimate,wasn't as potentially powerful
or impactful in changingbehavior or achieving desired
work outcomes as it might havebeen because the trust
(17:02):
foundation wasn't there. Hmm .
And, and in a more traditionalrelationship with a , let's say
between a manager and his orher direct report, that trust
builds up over time. Yeah. Andwe know that trust is a very
fragile, it's not a commodity,but it's very fragile. And so
historically, if something issomehow challenging or damaging
(17:26):
that trust, then to believethat you can go in and just
begin to give good feedback andit'll be received in the same
way in which you're hoping itwill won't necessarily be the
outcome. Yeah. When you aregoing into a new relationship,
like a consulting one as anexample, the only way that
trust is going to be built inmy experience is from
(17:49):
listening, listening,listening, listening. Hmm . And
really listening with realintent to try and understand
what this person is tellingyou. And that doesn't mean that
you're sitting there mute. Imean we're all experienced ,
uh, leaders I'm sure listeningto this, but it's that you are
(18:10):
indicating in your non-verbalsand in your engagement that you
are listening and that thequestions you ask reflect the
listening and then that startsto build the trust. And then
I'm going to relax a little bitmore and be more willing to
hear what you have to say, butalso open up to any suggestions
you might have.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Now I find I'm very aware of my own nonverbal
communication to you in thisvery conversation. ,
you mentioned as you sharedthat story right at the
beginning of our conversationabout your teaching style. I
wanted to ask you, are therechanges or shifts that you've
seen both in academics andprofessional or either one? Are
there changes in the industrythat you've seen that have
(18:49):
surprised you?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I think if I look in my rear view mirror mm-hmm
. I can see fromthe student perspective almost
waves, generational waves ofcharacterizations of what that
student is looking for in theirlearning experience. So if I
think about back when I was agraduate myself in the
(19:11):
seventies, a graduate student,pardon me, we were still very
much hippies and doing ourmother earth thing. And you
know, values are reallyimportant and freedom of speech
and all the rest. And thatresonates in the classroom and
the demeanor and theexpectation of the students.
Mm-hmm. And thenyou go through in the next
generation that comes along andpeople are getting more, I
(19:33):
would say, career oriented.
Right? So I want this mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (19:37):
.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
And I feel right now that the whole organizational
context and setting is in areal regenerative mode where
old models of being as leadersand as employees are not
particularly effective orrelevant in an environment
where, you know, there's a lotof hybrid working
(19:59):
relationships, remote working.
Mm-hmm . Wherethe proliferation of knowledge
and where it comes from and itslegitimacy is incredible. Where
the workforce is much more andshould be much more diverse and
inclusive than it historicallyhas been. People have different
expectations for what they wantto get from their work
(20:22):
experience. Hmm . You know, ifI think about my own three
children who have the benefitand sometimes the curse of
having a coach as a familymember, one of them in
particular who works in thehigh tech , her mindset was,
well if this doesn't work outhere, well no problem, I'll
just put on my, you know,roller skates and head down to
(20:42):
the organization down thestreet and pick up there and
see if it's a better fit forme. And of course fit is really
important, but now I see that,you know, as the tech industry
starts to change and differentskill sets are required, et
cetera, it's not as easy or aslikely that those roller skates
are gonna go very far in termsof getting you a better job
just by leaving the one thatyou've got right now.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah. So there's like influences when you're
dealing with the developmentand giving feedback to, let's
say a younger person on yourteam, then the approach that
you have to take when you'redealing with somebody who's
been around for a long timesees it all and kind of has a ,
well, here we go again, thenmindset. Mm-hmm .
(21:24):
So yes, I think you do need tobe particularly sensitive to
the, the needs and theexperiences of the individual
to whom you're giving feedbackand what the organization
expects of us all as well. Iwould say cultural eq , EQ at a
macro and a micro level Okay.
(21:45):
Is extremely important forleaders in today's
organizational settings.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
And that probably comes from, like you said
earlier, a lot of listening.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah. And also I think learning how to ask what
I, I call high qualityquestions. Questions that don't
simply require a head nod or aharrumph uhhuh for an answer,
but get a person to kind ofopen up and express more of
what's going on in thatinternal tape recorder in their
(22:17):
mind. Because that's what weall wanna know. Yeah. If I knew
what you were thinking rightnow as I'm speaking, couldn't
we have a much more effectiveconversation? Right. Yeah. It's
good questions that get aperson to relax and open up and
that's the trust piece. Right?
Yeah . So they're all, all ofthe elements are so intertwined
with one another.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Although I suppose if each of us could hear the
internal tape recorders ofthose around us, it would make
for very noisy environment. Youshared a couple of great
experiences of times thatfeedback has affected you in
your career. I wonder, in yourtime as a coach, can you share
a story with us maybe of anexperience or a time when
(22:57):
you've been able to seefeedback cause a point of
inflection in someone's careerthat you've been working with?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I have a really good example.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Well I think it's a good example.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
. .
Now you've piqued my interest,
Speaker 1 (23:12):
A board of directors for a very large global
corporation approach me andsaid that they were considering
putting a person who was at themoment ahead of one of the
divisions in a spot where he, amale would be effectively the
successor to the CEO of theorganization who was going to
(23:32):
retire in about a year and ahalf. But the board just had
this reluctance, this kind ofhesitation. They weren't sure,
but there was an itch there.
Mm-hmm . And theyasked me if I would go out and
interview some pre-identifiedstakeholders that this man
(23:53):
worked with on a regular basis.
So it might have been hisdirect reports, his peers, his
customers, regulators, etcetera. Sure. And just see what
impression they have of him. SoI thought it was a very unique
request. And I did go out and Ihad about 50 interviews. Wow.
(24:13):
So a huge, yeah, it was huge.
But it was a very high profileglobal organization. So the
data, the information wasreally important. After about
five interviews, there was aclear theme that just continued
to be reinforced. And basicallythe people I spoke to said that
(24:36):
they doubted the integrity ofthis man. And they said that
they believed that he was nottrustworthy and that he was
extremely self-serving.
Interesting. And in many casesthey cited the same example
where he had called out a, apeer in front of a regulatory
(25:00):
body rather than discussingthat issue with the peer.
Mm-hmm . Back atthe office before going out.
And the way in which theydescribed that incident just
stopped the conversation. Itwas so shocking. And in its
pointedness and it's justhumiliated the person Yeah. The
peer. So I had to go back andtell the board of directors
(25:23):
what I had discovered whileretaining the anonymity of the
contributors. Sure. And the ,so they kind of hit the pause
button on that opportunity forthat man. And they said to me,
now we need you to go and tellhim. So we're dealing with a
very smart man, very, verycapable. He had a commanding
(25:46):
presence in a room. So I hadmet him 'cause I interviewed
him, he knew exactly who I wasinterviewing, but he didn't
know because there were so manyof them, he couldn't possibly
figure out who said what. Andof course I couldn't report the
feedback in that way, but I didhave to tell him that the , at
the essence of it all wastrust, integrity and being
self-serving. And, and this isa true statement, he sat there,
(26:12):
he sat there, he sat there, andthen he picked up the books and
this binder of material thatwas on the table in front of
him and he just threw them atme. Oh my goodness. Yeah. He
was just so incredibly upset.
Yeah. And then he really brokedown. Then he really broke
(26:32):
down. And so I was like, okay,, wow, this is a new
experience. So I suggested thatwe take a break and let him
sort of diffuse a little littlebit. And when he came back into
the room, he would ask me,well, where do we go from here?
And I said, well that was areally good question. I think
that the answer was in hiscourt that where we could go
(26:53):
from here was, I did my job.
You heard what you heard, thankyou very much. And that was the
end of it. Or alternatively, wecould start to work in a
coaching relationship with oneanother. Yeah. I have to be
very honest and say I wasn'tsure that I wanted the latter
outcome. And I did tell himthat too.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Understandably.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah. I said that, given what I've heard, this is
not gonna be easy and you'regonna have to work so very,
very hard to make any kind of adifference here. And so why
don't we each take a couple ofweeks to think it over and
we'll connect. And in the end,we actually had a very
effective long-term coachingrelationship and he had to work
extremely hard for a longperiod of time. I think two
(27:35):
years, two and a half yearsbefore, people didn't think
that this was the new face thathe was presenting just because
he'd received this feedback.
But rather than internalize thewill to actually be different
in how he approached thesituation. And I would be
misleading if I said it was alla bed of roses kind of thing.
(27:58):
Sure . It was a hard climb. Buthe really impressed me with how
much it it meant to him, thefeedback he received and how he
wanted to try and make adifference. Now, he never did
become the CEO of thatorganization. Mm-hmm
. We can allsurmise why that was the case.
(28:18):
Yeah . But he did go on to workin another organization where
he did become the CEO and to myknowledge, because it's a while
ago now, that he has beensuccessful. But it was a tough
message to have to deliver andit was very tough for him to
hear.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Great story. I liked that. It's amazing how a small
bit of feedback can make such amajor change in a person's
career. But also I think itpoints out what we talked about
earlier and that is that trust,which is kind of wrapped up in
the person's integrity, is soeasy to lose. It's so fragile
and can take so long to buildthat back up again. Like you
(28:58):
had said earlier in ourconversation, Lori , you've
shared some remarkableinsights. I've really enjoyed
our conversation so far. Isthere anything else that you
would share with our listenersin terms of advice or tips or
ideas that you want to sharewith us?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
I think I would say that I would hope that when
we're going in to givefeedback, that the place we're
coming from is one of addingvalue. That what we want to do
is offer some insights toanother person that will help
(29:34):
them be even more effective,more curious, more aligned with
the organization, moremotivated than before our
conversation had started. Andif that's what my objective is
when I'm in a coaching or in ateaching mode, then the onus of
responsibility to achieve thatoutcome primarily lies with me.
(29:59):
Mm-hmm . And myown willingness to prepare
ahead of time to exercise myempathy to the full extent. And
I know that isn't always easybecause oftentimes we're giving
feedback to deal with , uh,perhaps a performance
challenge. And so to think, oh,adding value there or somebody
(30:19):
who's been chronicallyexhibiting that performance
challenge over a long period oftime and turning that situation
around is not easy. So I'm nothaving a , um, a naive
perspective, but I think my ownmindset is really important and
I own the responsibility formaking this a successful
(30:41):
conversation. If I can evenhelp the other person to see
that they also own thatresponsibility. They're not
just sitting there, but they'reresponsible for the outcome as
well. All the better. Butthat's never gonna happen if I
go in with my own agenda andI'm just here to tell you
what's not working right orwhat the limitations might be
(31:02):
on your career development,that's not going to get us to a
maximal outcome.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah. I think that's fantastic advice. And as we
come in with that empathy, withthat desire to build trust,
hopefully we don't get thingsthrown at us from upset
individuals., it maynot always happen that way ,
but sometimes Right.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
, well, if
you've been at it long enough,
you're going to have somethinglike that happen in your
career. Right.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
That's a good point.
Lori , I have really enjoyedour conversation today. Thank
you so much for your time andfor exploring these ideas with
us. I think what you've sharedhas been really helpful to me,
and I think it will be to ourlisteners as well.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I wanna thank you for giving me this opportunity,
Troy. And my, my greatest wishfor this conversation is that
your listeners perhaps can takeone idea away that will be of
some value to them goingforward. So thank you very much
for having me.
I really think it's important to always remember
when we're preparing to eithergive or receive feedback, that
we have our own uniqueperspective and the person to
whom we're speaking has theirs.
And to some extent, those twowill cross and they will also
be very different. And if wedon't spend time either
(00:28):
thinking about or exploring theways in which those
perspectives are complimentaryand different, then our
feedback giving and receivingis going to be suboptimal.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to Simply Feedback thepodcast brought to you by
Learning Bridge . I'm your hostTroy Blazer, and I'm excited to
be with you. I'm happy tointroduce Lori Rizek. Lori is
an associate professor at theUniversity of Toronto, while
being a favorite with students,she also has deep expertise in
leadership development andorganizational effectiveness.
(01:08):
And she has dedicated hercareer to fostering leadership
skills and enhancing teamdynamics. As a consultant and
executive coach, Lori helpsorganizations build strong
feedback cultures and improveemployee engagement. So in
today's episode of SimplyFeedback, I am excited to learn
from her decades of insights onleadership and high performing
(01:29):
teams in today's evolvingworkplace. Lori , welcome to
Simply Feedback. It's so greatto have you with us today.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Thank you very much, Troy. That was a very generous
introduction,
Speaker 2 (01:40):
to our conversation. I wonder,could you tell us about maybe a
time in your life when youreceived some feedback, maybe
it had an impact on yourcareer, on your personal life?
Is there a story that you couldshare with us regarding
feedback?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Whoa,
question or
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I , I guess it depends on the feedback, right?
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well, as a university professor, I get
feedback every four months.
sobering moment. Having taughtfour 40 years, I still both
look forward to and have acertain element of nervous
butterflies when I open upthose evaluations to see what
they have to say. 'causeinvariably I find there's
(02:27):
always something that'ssurprising and something that I
can learn from the feedback. SoI thought , uh, maybe I would
talk about two examples, if youdon't mind. Sure . And I'll try
and make them short. The firstone, I'll go into the academic
world. I , um, years ago had avery, very talented PhD student
(02:48):
who was assigned to me as myteaching assistant. And it was
at a time in history whenprofessors were starting to
migrate from being the , uh,sage on the stage to a new
style of more engagement,student oriented feedback.
Mm-hmm
designing new formats for how Iran a three hour class. And at
(03:12):
the end of this particularclass, I was quite pleased with
my outcome. I thought, oh,that's really cool, and I think
that's working. So afterwards Isaid to my ta, would you give
me some feedback, please. Ithink the class went well, but
what did you think? And shevery generously said, well,
Speaker 2 (03:34):
sentence. Right. It was
Speaker 1 (03:39):
A slow, well with a very large, you know, comma at
the end of it,
that the material and my energyand my stories were extremely
well received by the students.
But her point, which was soinsightful, it just really made
(03:59):
me stand back, was that I knewin my mind where I was going
with the lecture, but thestudents didn't know where I
was going. So they didn't havea mental map that they could
follow along and see how onepart of the lecture sort of led
in , created the context forthe next. And I thought that
that was just like, wow. Spoton gift that I received. So I
(04:24):
went back to my drawing boardand started all over again. And
every lecture I've given as aresult I think really benefited
from that advice ,
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Kind of having that roadmap . Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was such an obvious piece,
right? And because I had to sitdown and think about the
roadmap, I also could thinkabout where did I need to give
a better example or where couldI tell a story or ask a
question that would really bothreengage the student, but also
give me an opportunity to checkthat what I was saying was
(04:56):
resonating with them, that theywere following along as I had
hoped they would or askingquestions, et cetera. So that
was a very positive feedback.
Yeah . Experience . The otherone, actually, I was fortunate
enough, early in my career towork as a manager in a
government agency up here inCanada at the federal level. I
(05:17):
had a role where I was asked tostart a new team and introduce
at the time a strategicplanning process. So those were
back in the dark, you know, ageof dinosaurs kind of thing,
where the process followed afiscal year. And I was really
focused on trying to create aprocess that was gonna work
(05:37):
across all these variousgovernments. So I hired my team
of people and I got really busyand it was, it was a hard sell
'cause people weren'taccustomed to this stranger
coming in teaching me how todesign a strategy process,
telling me it had to be done inFebruary and I had to do this
in April, et cetera. Mm-hmm
really good about the work andthe team. And in the division
(05:59):
where I worked, there werethree other managers. And this
was my first time leading ateam. So I thought we were
doing very well. And one day mydirector called me in for some,
some feedback. So I thought, oh, this is gonna be really good.
Right?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Just, you know, pop me on the back and tell me it
was great. And he did and hedidn't. So he said that I had
successfully created a verystrong and cohesive, highly
motivated, very resultsoriented insular team. So I was
(06:39):
like, oh my. And he reminded methat my team existed in a
broader context, namely theother two teams who were in our
division. And that our workcouldn't be successful with one
team being successful. And italso couldn't be successful if
that one team thought they weresuperstars
(07:03):
Relative to everybody else. Andit just was like one of those
moments where you kind of hityour forehead and go, oh wow.
It's a system. It's a systemand we're all part of it and
you can't be an island ofsuccess. You know, you have to
be a whole globe of success, soto speak. Yeah. And that really
caused me to reflect a lot onwhat I thought my role was as a
(07:28):
leader, not only with my team,but with my colleagues, my
peers, and with my keystakeholders that I was trying
to sell this strategic planningprocess too . So it was hard
feedback to hear and it took mea little while to emotionally
let go of the feedback andstart to look at it as
(07:51):
potentially something that Icould learn from and ultimately
really changed my approach to,to leading.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Those are fascinating stories. It seems
like, as I listen to you tellthem, what occurs to me is that
it has a little bit to do withperspective. In the first
story, you had a , a uniqueperspective that the other
students and the TA didn't haveand that you knew the whole
story from beginning to end.
'cause it was your, your story.
(08:17):
And the TA was able to pointout that, hey, the students
have a little bit differentperspective, they don't know
the end yet, so it's moredifficult for them to sort of
follow along and , andunderstand where you're trying
to go. And then in the secondstory, you had a perspective
that was focused on your teamas it rightfully so, and you
did a fantastic job on thatteam, you know , creating a
(08:41):
very cohesive team that workedwell together. But that
director could see multipleteams and said, Hey, from my
perspective, you need tobroaden out a little bit. And
so to me it's an interestinglesson on perspective.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
I think choosing the word perspective is a very good
one and probably veryappropriate given what we're
talking about. Because I reallythink it's important to always
remember when we're preparingto either give or receive
feedback that we have our ownunique perspective. Yeah . And
the person to whom we'respeaking has theirs. And to
(09:19):
some extent those two willcross and they will also be
very different. Yeah . And ifwe don't spend time either
thinking about or exploring theways in which those
perspectives are complimentaryand different, then our
feedback giving and receivingis going to be suboptimal.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah. In the first story, you sought out that
feedback from the ta, yourecognized that your
perspective was unique as theprofessor. And so you said, I
need to get some feedback fromsomeone who is seeing things
differently than I am. And theywere able to point out kind of
a blind spot for you. And soit's important I think, to
remember, Hey, let me stop andget feedback from someone with
(10:03):
a different perspective. Mm-hmm
that you shared a story fromyour time as a professor. You
teach organizational behaviorat the University of Toronto
and Canada. Is that right?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yes. And I've also been able to teach in Iceland ,
uh Okay . In the executive MBAprogram. And I also teach in
Italy , uh, Sienna at theuniversity there, where Oh wow
. We try to look at culturaldifferences in leadership and
what we perceive the leader'srole to be.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Interesting. Very global kind of perspective. And
I know you've also consultedwith organizations
professionally, you know,around the globe as well. So
Lori , besides the differencein experience level, what are
some of the differences inperspective and priorities that
you see between the studentsthat you work with and maybe
the older professionals as youinteract with them?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
The one thing that really stands out for me with
the students, especially Iwould say at the more
undergraduate level, is thatthey are really hungry for high
quality feedback so that theycan assess whether or not what
they were trying to accomplishin writing an assignment as an
example, was actually seen inthe same way by the professor.
(11:20):
And also one of the things thatI've really learned over the
years is that people are notparticularly good at
understanding what theirstrengths are. Hmm . So they're
always looking for somebody tosay to them, actually, you have
a very good analytical approachto a particular topic, or the
(11:40):
questions that you ask in theclassroom are very insightful.
And I know that because otherstudents shake their head when
you ask the question or ittakes us to a new part of the
conversation. That's the kindof feedback that the more
junior student just can't getenough of mm-hmm
. Because it's offered veryinfrequently. Alternatively, in
(12:04):
due respect to the more seniorexecutives in the MBA classes,
they bring , uh, unique set ofexperiences against which they
can bounce off new ideas orconcepts that you present and
decide for themselves whetheror not they agree or they're
applicable in theircircumstance. But one of the
(12:26):
things, again, in all duerespect, is that I do see this
thing that I call hardening ofthe categories a lot more among
the senior people in the room.
In that, in that our mindsetshave a tendency to become a
little bit more , uh, set asthe experiences we have tend to
(12:48):
reinforce what those mindsetsare. Yeah . For the good and
for the bad. So that whensomeone comes along with , um,
a new idea, it's not always aneasy sell, which is something
that we need to keep in mind, Ithink when we're giving
feedback in general, is that wemight feel really excited about
this opportunity, let's say, asa leader to give feedback to
(13:10):
someone, but it's notnecessarily something that the
person who's on the receivingend is really going to accept.
So I'd say this thing calledopen-mindedness is a dramatic
difference. Similarly, when youas an external consultant go
into an organization, and thisrelates to two points that I
wanna make, the culture withinthat environment determines, I
(13:33):
think a lot about perspective.
So in some organizations whenwe go in, people greet us with
open arms because they see theexternal consultant as not
having that historical view ofwhat's happened in the
organization. So it's a freshlook and perhaps it's a fresh
way of looking at data oranalyzing problems, et cetera.
(13:54):
And so in certain culturesthat's very much welcome. In
other organizational cultures,I would say it's more
cautiously approached as well,I'm gonna be more critical of
this because we had to bring inthis external person who
perhaps is there becausethey're judging that what we
did previously was not valued .
(14:16):
I think the second point Iwanna make is that I have
learned over the years thatthere are huge cultural
differences at the macro andmicro level that you need to
pay attention to. And in somecultures, for example, people
are much more accustomed toreceiving information, not
(14:37):
necessarily critically thinkingabout information and deciding
if they wanna convert that intoinsight or into something that
they can work with and , anduse in their room. And I , I'm
thinking in particular of anexperience I had, I was working
with a bunch of 20 or so seniorleaders, two of whom were
women. And at one of the breaksI happened to be in the ladies
(15:01):
room, along with one of theparticipants who was clearly
very emotionally upset mm-hmm
her, you know, are you okay?
What's happening? And she said,this is just so out of cultural
appropriateness for me that I'mhaving a really hard time
handling our session. I reallywant to be open-minded to what
(15:23):
you have to say, but it's, I'mhaving a hard time doing that
because I feel I can't reallyask questions in the way that I
might like to, becauseculturally that would not be
received particularly well.
Interesting. And it was like,wow. Yeah. Yeah. I , I came , I
came out of that break reallywith a different mindset myself
(15:44):
for how I was gonna continue torun the session. So yes, there
are huge differences I think inperspective between
professionals and students and,and across cultures. Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (15:55):
up through primary secondaryeducation all about the
feedback. Ultimately, what ismy grade going to be for this
course ? Right. Like you say,they're very much in the realm
of receiving feedback, butthose older professionals, it's
less of a blank slate. What aresome ways that we can keep an
open mind as maybe we're in themode of receiving feedback?
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I think for me, trust is the most important
word when it comes to beingable to both give and receive
feedback, is that you have tohave a foundation in a
relationship built on trust forpeople to be able to open up to
it. And I can give you anynumber of examples where that
(16:41):
trust has been absent and thefeedback, while really good,
high quality , legitimate,wasn't as potentially powerful
or impactful in changingbehavior or achieving desired
work outcomes as it might havebeen because the trust
(17:02):
foundation wasn't there. Hmm .
And, and in a more traditionalrelationship with a , let's say
between a manager and his orher direct report, that trust
builds up over time. Yeah. Andwe know that trust is a very
fragile, it's not a commodity,but it's very fragile. And so
historically, if something issomehow challenging or damaging
(17:26):
that trust, then to believethat you can go in and just
begin to give good feedback andit'll be received in the same
way in which you're hoping itwill won't necessarily be the
outcome. Yeah. When you aregoing into a new relationship,
like a consulting one as anexample, the only way that
trust is going to be built inmy experience is from
(17:49):
listening, listening,listening, listening. Hmm . And
really listening with realintent to try and understand
what this person is tellingyou. And that doesn't mean that
you're sitting there mute. Imean we're all experienced ,
uh, leaders I'm sure listeningto this, but it's that you are
(18:10):
indicating in your non-verbalsand in your engagement that you
are listening and that thequestions you ask reflect the
listening and then that startsto build the trust. And then
I'm going to relax a little bitmore and be more willing to
hear what you have to say, butalso open up to any suggestions
you might have.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Now I find I'm very aware of my own nonverbal
communication to you in thisvery conversation.
you mentioned as you sharedthat story right at the
beginning of our conversationabout your teaching style. I
wanted to ask you, are therechanges or shifts that you've
seen both in academics andprofessional or either one? Are
there changes in the industrythat you've seen that have
(18:49):
surprised you?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I think if I look in my rear view mirror mm-hmm
waves, generational waves ofcharacterizations of what that
student is looking for in theirlearning experience. So if I
think about back when I was agraduate myself in the
(19:11):
seventies, a graduate student,pardon me, we were still very
much hippies and doing ourmother earth thing. And you
know, values are reallyimportant and freedom of speech
and all the rest. And thatresonates in the classroom and
the demeanor and theexpectation of the students.
Mm-hmm
generation that comes along andpeople are getting more, I
(19:33):
would say, career oriented.
Right? So I want this mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Speaker 1 (19:37):
And I feel right now that the whole organizational
context and setting is in areal regenerative mode where
old models of being as leadersand as employees are not
particularly effective orrelevant in an environment
where, you know, there's a lotof hybrid working
(19:59):
relationships, remote working.
Mm-hmm
and where it comes from and itslegitimacy is incredible. Where
the workforce is much more andshould be much more diverse and
inclusive than it historicallyhas been. People have different
expectations for what they wantto get from their work
(20:22):
experience. Hmm . You know, ifI think about my own three
children who have the benefitand sometimes the curse of
having a coach as a familymember,
particular who works in thehigh tech , her mindset was,
well if this doesn't work outhere, well no problem, I'll
just put on my, you know,roller skates and head down to
(20:42):
the organization down thestreet and pick up there and
see if it's a better fit forme. And of course fit is really
important, but now I see that,you know, as the tech industry
starts to change and differentskill sets are required, et
cetera, it's not as easy or aslikely that those roller skates
are gonna go very far in termsof getting you a better job
just by leaving the one thatyou've got right now.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah. So there's like influences when you're
dealing with the developmentand giving feedback to, let's
say a younger person on yourteam, then the approach that
you have to take when you'redealing with somebody who's
been around for a long timesees it all and kind of has a ,
well, here we go again, thenmindset. Mm-hmm
(21:24):
So yes, I think you do need tobe particularly sensitive to
the, the needs and theexperiences of the individual
to whom you're giving feedbackand what the organization
expects of us all as well. Iwould say cultural eq , EQ at a
macro and a micro level Okay.
(21:45):
Is extremely important forleaders in today's
organizational settings.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
And that probably comes from, like you said
earlier, a lot of listening.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah. And also I think learning how to ask what
I, I call high qualityquestions. Questions that don't
simply require a head nod or aharrumph uhhuh for an answer,
but get a person to kind ofopen up and express more of
what's going on in thatinternal tape recorder in their
(22:17):
mind. Because that's what weall wanna know. Yeah. If I knew
what you were thinking rightnow as I'm speaking, couldn't
we have a much more effectiveconversation? Right. Yeah. It's
good questions that get aperson to relax and open up and
that's the trust piece. Right?
Yeah . So they're all, all ofthe elements are so intertwined
with one another.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Although I suppose if each of us could hear the
internal tape recorders ofthose around us, it would make
for very noisy environment. Youshared a couple of great
experiences of times thatfeedback has affected you in
your career. I wonder, in yourtime as a coach, can you share
a story with us maybe of anexperience or a time when
(22:57):
you've been able to seefeedback cause a point of
inflection in someone's careerthat you've been working with?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I have a really good example.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Well I think it's a good example.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Now you've piqued my interest,
Speaker 1 (23:12):
A board of directors for a very large global
corporation approach me andsaid that they were considering
putting a person who was at themoment ahead of one of the
divisions in a spot where he, amale would be effectively the
successor to the CEO of theorganization who was going to
(23:32):
retire in about a year and ahalf. But the board just had
this reluctance, this kind ofhesitation. They weren't sure,
but there was an itch there.
Mm-hmm
interview some pre-identifiedstakeholders that this man
(23:53):
worked with on a regular basis.
So it might have been hisdirect reports, his peers, his
customers, regulators, etcetera. Sure. And just see what
impression they have of him. SoI thought it was a very unique
request. And I did go out and Ihad about 50 interviews. Wow.
(24:13):
So a huge, yeah, it was huge.
But it was a very high profileglobal organization. So the
data, the information wasreally important. After about
five interviews, there was aclear theme that just continued
to be reinforced. And basicallythe people I spoke to said that
(24:36):
they doubted the integrity ofthis man. And they said that
they believed that he was nottrustworthy and that he was
extremely self-serving.
Interesting. And in many casesthey cited the same example
where he had called out a, apeer in front of a regulatory
(25:00):
body rather than discussingthat issue with the peer.
Mm-hmm
And the way in which theydescribed that incident just
stopped the conversation. Itwas so shocking. And in its
pointedness and it's justhumiliated the person Yeah. The
peer. So I had to go back andtell the board of directors
(25:23):
what I had discovered whileretaining the anonymity of the
contributors. Sure. And the ,so they kind of hit the pause
button on that opportunity forthat man. And they said to me,
now we need you to go and tellhim. So we're dealing with a
very smart man, very, verycapable. He had a commanding
(25:46):
presence in a room. So I hadmet him 'cause I interviewed
him, he knew exactly who I wasinterviewing, but he didn't
know because there were so manyof them, he couldn't possibly
figure out who said what. Andof course I couldn't report the
feedback in that way, but I didhave to tell him that the , at
the essence of it all wastrust, integrity and being
self-serving. And, and this isa true statement, he sat there,
(26:12):
he sat there, he sat there, andthen he picked up the books and
this binder of material thatwas on the table in front of
him and he just threw them atme. Oh my goodness. Yeah. He
was just so incredibly upset.
Yeah. And then he really brokedown. Then he really broke
(26:32):
down. And so I was like, okay,
experience. So I suggested thatwe take a break and let him
sort of diffuse a little littlebit. And when he came back into
the room, he would ask me,well, where do we go from here?
And I said, well that was areally good question. I think
that the answer was in hiscourt that where we could go
(26:53):
from here was, I did my job.
You heard what you heard, thankyou very much. And that was the
end of it. Or alternatively, wecould start to work in a
coaching relationship with oneanother. Yeah. I have to be
very honest and say I wasn'tsure that I wanted the latter
outcome. And I did tell himthat too.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Understandably.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah. I said that, given what I've heard, this is
not gonna be easy and you'regonna have to work so very,
very hard to make any kind of adifference here. And so why
don't we each take a couple ofweeks to think it over and
we'll connect. And in the end,we actually had a very
effective long-term coachingrelationship and he had to work
extremely hard for a longperiod of time. I think two
(27:35):
years, two and a half yearsbefore, people didn't think
that this was the new face thathe was presenting just because
he'd received this feedback.
But rather than internalize thewill to actually be different
in how he approached thesituation. And I would be
misleading if I said it was alla bed of roses kind of thing.
(27:58):
Sure . It was a hard climb. Buthe really impressed me with how
much it it meant to him, thefeedback he received and how he
wanted to try and make adifference. Now, he never did
become the CEO of thatorganization. Mm-hmm
(28:18):
Yeah . But he did go on to workin another organization where
he did become the CEO and to myknowledge, because it's a while
ago now, that he has beensuccessful. But it was a tough
message to have to deliver andit was very tough for him to
hear.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Great story. I liked that. It's amazing how a small
bit of feedback can make such amajor change in a person's
career. But also I think itpoints out what we talked about
earlier and that is that trust,which is kind of wrapped up in
the person's integrity, is soeasy to lose. It's so fragile
and can take so long to buildthat back up again. Like you
(28:58):
had said earlier in ourconversation, Lori , you've
shared some remarkableinsights. I've really enjoyed
our conversation so far. Isthere anything else that you
would share with our listenersin terms of advice or tips or
ideas that you want to sharewith us?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
I think I would say that I would hope that when
we're going in to givefeedback, that the place we're
coming from is one of addingvalue. That what we want to do
is offer some insights toanother person that will help
(29:34):
them be even more effective,more curious, more aligned with
the organization, moremotivated than before our
conversation had started. Andif that's what my objective is
when I'm in a coaching or in ateaching mode, then the onus of
responsibility to achieve thatoutcome primarily lies with me.
(29:59):
Mm-hmm
ahead of time to exercise myempathy to the full extent. And
I know that isn't always easybecause oftentimes we're giving
feedback to deal with , uh,perhaps a performance
challenge. And so to think, oh,adding value there or somebody
(30:19):
who's been chronicallyexhibiting that performance
challenge over a long period oftime and turning that situation
around is not easy. So I'm nothaving a , um, a naive
perspective, but I think my ownmindset is really important and
I own the responsibility formaking this a successful
(30:41):
conversation. If I can evenhelp the other person to see
that they also own thatresponsibility. They're not
just sitting there, but they'reresponsible for the outcome as
well. All the better. Butthat's never gonna happen if I
go in with my own agenda andI'm just here to tell you
what's not working right orwhat the limitations might be
(31:02):
on your career development,that's not going to get us to a
maximal outcome.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah. I think that's fantastic advice. And as we
come in with that empathy, withthat desire to build trust,
hopefully we don't get thingsthrown at us from upset
individuals.
but sometimes Right.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
you're going to have somethinglike that happen in your
career. Right.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
That's a good point.
Lori , I have really enjoyedour conversation today. Thank
you so much for your time andfor exploring these ideas with
us. I think what you've sharedhas been really helpful to me,
and I think it will be to ourlisteners as well.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I wanna thank you for giving me this opportunity,
Troy. And my, my greatest wishfor this conversation is that
your listeners perhaps can takeone idea away that will be of
some value to them goingforward. So thank you very much
for having me.
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