September 3, 2025 • 36 mins
This episode of Simply Feedback features an insightful conversation with Cathleen Swody, PhD, an executive coach and organizational psychologist. As the co-author of The Leadership Continuum, Cathleen shares her sharp insights from two decades of shaping leaders and teams that thrive.
From a pivotal personal experience receiving feedback to practical strategies for managers, Cathleen discusses how to shift from reactive to intentional leadership. She introduces the core idea behind her book's framework, explaining why flexing your leadership style is essential in today's fast-paced environment. She also provides guidance on how to avoid common pitfalls, such as the temptation to go on autopilot, and how to use feedback to identify when your current approach isn't working.
If you're a leader aiming to be more intentional, foster better team engagement, and create a culture where feedback drives success, this episode is filled with actionable advice and valuable perspectives.
📌 Find Cathleen's book here.
Check out the free Q&A videos that we have produced with tips to help you receive feedback graciously and act on it visibly at www.learningbridge.com/tips.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cathleen Swody (00:01):
Sometimes the students will look at me and
they'll say, well, that's commonsense.
Of course, somebody would dothat.
Nobody in their right mindwould wake up in the morning and
start micromanaging somebody.
That's just a terrible idea,right?
Because it makes a lot of senseconceptually to us not to do
that.
However, because of my deepexperience talking to multiple,
multiple leaders, I canunderstand what's going on in
(00:23):
their heads as they're doingthat.
And it's true, they didn't wakeup in the morning saying, I'm
going to be the world's worstmicromanager, but they were
worried about a deadline, orthey've been so ingrained to get
results and get gold stars, orthey just don't know the right
way to delegate, or they want tobe protective of their team.
They don't want to give theirteam members too much work.
(00:44):
So it can come from a reallygood place, but how it impacts
others is not what theyintended.
Troy Blaser (00:56):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Simply
Feedback, the podcast brought toyou by LearningBridge.
I'm your host, Troy Blaser.
It's great to be with youtoday.
I'm very excited about ourguest today, who is Cathleen
Swody, PhD.
Cathleen is an executive coachand organizational psychologist
who helps leaders see what'sholding them back and what will
(01:18):
move them forward.
She is the co-author of TheLeadership Continuum, and she
brings sharp insight andreal-world perspectives from two
decades of shaping leaders andteams that thrive.
Cathleen, welcome to SimplyFeedback.
It's great to have you with ustoday.
Cathleen Swody (01:34):
Thank you, Troy.
I'm happy to be here.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to talk aboutfeedback because you can't see
what's holding you back and youcan't see how to move forward
without feedback.
So happy to be here.
Troy Blaser (01:46):
Fantastic.
Well, in that vein, and maybeto help us get to know you just
a little better, I wonder if youcan tell us about a time that
somebody gave you feedback inyour life.
Maybe it was a time when thisfeedback made an impact on your
career or on your personal life.
Is there a story that you canshare with us?
Cathleen Swody (02:03):
Yeah, definitely.
So there was a time a whileback where I was in an all day
session with a variety ofsubject matter experts and I was
listening intently.
My style tends to be morereserved.
I was paying a lot ofattention, having great ideas,
but I was keeping them tomyself.
And I had a colleague whoduring a break in a couple
(02:26):
sentences simply told me that hecould see the wheels turning in
my head and that it would be abenefit to the team to share
some of those ideas, even ifthey weren't perfectly
positioned or weren't perfectlysaid, just to get my ideas out
there, share my insights.
And basically he conveyed thatto not do so was a disservice to
(02:49):
those in the room.
And that resonated with mebecause my main goal is to help
people.
And so if I'm not beinghelpful, then that's a sign for
me.
So he said it in a very kindway.
And I went back into the roomand I was able to share a few
insights.
But what I took away from thatwas more than that one meeting,
more than that one session andmore than those couple of
(03:11):
insights.
It was that I don't have tohave a perfect sentence in order
to share my authentic point ofview or my perspective or what
I'm observing in the room.
I don't have to have all theanswers and be the number one
expert to add value.
And that is something that wasa shift for me because it was a
lot different than giving me thepiece of feedback like, hey,
(03:33):
speak up more or we need to hearyou talk more.
But it was like, hey, I see anopportunity to you to add value
in your own way.
Here's how you might do that.
And I've taken that to heart interms of when I've been invited
to go speak places or I've beeninvited to be on the panel of
media experts for the AmericanPsychological Association or
(03:53):
even this podcast.
Right.
I get the invitation and I'mlike, I'm sure there's lots of
experts and feedback who theycan invite.
And you have invited.
I've seen the list of podcasts.
Troy Blaser (04:02):
Right.
Cathleen Swody (04:03):
But I was like, well, maybe I have something to
offer.
So let me offer it to you andsee if you accept it.
So that was that was a pivotfor
Troy B (04:11):
I love that idea of just getting it out there because
you never know what's going tohappen.
If you keep the ideas in yourhead, you do know what's going
to happen and they're going tostay there and maybe they get
improved or polished as youthink about them over time.
But if you get that idea out inthe room, it's hard to tell
what's going to happen with it.
It might be a flop.
It might be a non-starting kindof idea or someone else might
(04:34):
pick it up and improve it andmake it better.
even than you would have onyour own.
And so that was really greatfeedback.
The other interesting thingthat I like in that is that
there was someone in that roomthat was observant enough to see
that going on on your face orinside your head or whatever and
say, no, I can tell there'ssomething going on in there and
(04:56):
enough of a mentor to just say,Hey, here's a piece of advice or
feedback or whatever that wouldhelp you and help all of us in
the room if you get to sharethose ideas.
Cathleen Swody (05:09):
Absolutely.
A bit of a nudge.
And it's interesting becausethat's not actually a piece of
feedback that I often give toleaders for general
facilitation.
If you notice somebody who'sengaged yet quiet, see if you
can pull out from their headwhat's going on because they
might have some goodobservations because they have
been quiet.
(05:29):
And to your point, ideas don'tlive in isolation.
They bounce off of each otherand they go back and forth in
conversation.
So let's bring them to lightand see where they go, see where
they take us in those meetings.
Troy Blaser (05:42):
I love that.
So the book that youco-authored is called The
Leadership Continuum, HowFlexing Across the Seven Facets
of Leadership IncreasesEffectiveness.
Can you explain to us the coreidea behind flexing leadership
styles and why it's critical intoday's workplace?
Cathleen Swody (06:00):
Yeah.
So the underlying assumption isthat leaders, in order to be
most effective, they need toadapt to three different things.
They need to adapt to thesituation at hand.
They need to adapt to thespecific people that they're
working with.
And they need to adapt to thekinds of results that they want
(06:21):
to go for.
And in today's workplace, whichis even more fast paced and
more uncertain, things arechanging pretty rapidly.
So being able to read the room,even if the room is more of the
market and the situationbroader, but being able to read
the room and then respondappropriate to it is an
(06:41):
advantage.
And for most of us humans, whenwe're under stress and we're
under pressure, Our brains tendto go on autopilot.
We tend to revert back towhat's worked for us in the
past.
We double down on what hasworked, what our most comfort
zone is, when really we need totake a step back, a quick pause,
(07:02):
and deliberately decide what'sthe best move here.
How do I want to lead mypeople?
How do I want to lead thesituation in order to get the
best results, rather than justrelying on pure autopilot?
So it's really about being moreintentional in how we adapt to
situations.
Troy Blaser (07:18):
I think that's important to be aware enough to
avoid that trap of going onautopilot and saying, let me be
deliberate in my leadershipstyle and make sure that it's an
appropriate way to respond tothe situation, as you mentioned.
Of the seven facets ofleadership that you talk about
(07:40):
in the book, are there one ortwo that you've seen where
leaders most commonly sort ofget stuck?
Cathleen Swody (07:46):
Yeah, so we boiled down to seven, but there
is one that really stands out tome where I see leaders get
stuck most often.
And that is the facet ofintensity.
So for each of these facets,they're on a continuum.
So on one side, you have, youknow, passionate, right for
intensity.
On the other side, you havevery patient and planful.
And I've seen a lot of leaderswho've been rewarded as they
(08:09):
were coming up the ranks forbeing very action oriented, for
getting results for moving forhaving a strong drive, a strong
passion.
And that serves in a lot ofsituations.
But sometimes it doesn't.
For example, when you have avery complex problem that you're
(08:30):
dealing with, right?
In the book, we talk aboutApollo 13, right?
Ready fire was not an option.
There were going to be some badoutcomes if we did that.
Yes, they needed urgency, butthey also needed to do some
aiming.
They needed to be reallythoughtful.
So they needed to weave thatin.
So it's important to be alittle bit more patient and not
(08:51):
rush things to check the box, toget things done when you have
that kind of complexity and youneed to let the team work
through the problem.
Or if you have multiplestakeholders across the
organization and you need toalign them, pushing through is
going to make them feel like asteamroller came over them.
And that's not going to go wellin terms of accepting the
(09:14):
changes or accepting the newproduct.
So it's pressing pause.
And that's really hard forpeople who've been trained their
careers to keep pushing,pushing, pushing.
Troy Blaser (09:25):
Well, yeah.
And especially in today'smodern workplace with
technology, there's very much,there's very often that
attitude, right, of move fastand break things.
And you're saying often,especially with with highly
complex situations, the rightstep is to do a little bit more
planning, have a little morepatience before jumping in and
(09:48):
firing away, right?
Cathleen Swody (09:50):
Yeah, that's right.
And connecting with the team,giving them a chance to do their
thing.
Because oftentimes if leadersare leaning too far on that
intensity scale towards thatpassionate piece, that drive at
getting things done, their teammembers feel that they don't
have a voice.
They don't have a chance to dothings.
They don't have a chance toweigh in on the solution.
And they're like, why are wehere?
Troy Blaser (10:12):
Yeah. Like I can, I've been in those situations
where it's like, I can bring alot to this role, but it sounds
like all you want from me is tojust do the automated task or
whatever.
You don't want me to bethinking about it.
And that's definitely lesssatisfying way to be a part of a
team.
Cathleen Swody (10:28):
Oh, yeah.
And it's very difficult to growand develop and thrive in those
situations.
And so leaders who arecognizant of when it's time to
give their people a space to donon-automated tasks, they're the
ones who are going to grow anddevelop their people.
And that creates thatleadership pipeline.
Troy Blaser (10:46):
So thinking about simply feedback, are there ways
that feedback can help a leaderidentify when their current
style isn't working and maybethey need to flex?
Cathleen Swody (10:58):
A hundred percent.
That is the only way people aregoing to shift in terms of how
they how they respond to thesesituations, because it is so
ingrained.
We do have these naturaltendencies.
And so either they're going toget feedback in terms of a big
mistake at work, which, youknow, we don't want.
But more ideally, they'll getfeedback from their teams, from
(11:19):
the people that they're workingwith, that the style isn't
working, that that people areconfused, that people don't see
the urgency, that they feel thateverything is working.
Everything is a fire drill.
That's a comment I often see inthe feedback reports.
Everything is a fire drill.
If everything is urgent,nothing is urgent.
Or the person, the leaderdisappears and then all of a
sudden they appear and this itemon their task list is suddenly
(11:42):
the number one priority and wegot to get it done today and
we're rushing it, we're makingmistakes.
So you definitely hear it inthe feedback and you need that
feedback in order to raise theself-awareness that for people
to know, okay, this styledoesn't work for everything and
recognizing that there's a valueto shifting a little bit.
I mean, we're not asking peopleto completely change their
(12:03):
ways, but just shift a littlebit, a little bit more to that
planful stage.
And that requires feedback tocall it out and bring it to
their attention.
Troy Blaser (12:12):
Well, and even thinking about gathering
feedback in the first place onthat intensity facet, you know,
you can...
the feedback is going to comeone way or another.
It's either going to come whenyou've jumped in without
planning and then you fail andthen there's going to be
feedback or you can be a littlebit more proactive, make room
(12:33):
for the feedback As you'regoing, right?
And then you're receiving thatfeedback as you go along and
your aim is then much better.
You've made room for thefeedback.
And then when you fire, you'remuch more likely to be on
target, I suppose, if we'recontinuing with that analogy.
Cathleen Swody (12:50):
Oh, definitely.
Yeah, you're able to adjust asyou go instead of having a
catastrophe,
Troy Blaser (12:56):
Yes.
Cathleen Swody (12:57):
Which nobody wants, right?
It's a very costly way to getfeedback instead of getting it
on a regular basis.
Troy Blaser (13:04):
Yeah.
So in your experience, what isthe difference between a leader
who adapts their styleintentionally versus a leader
who kind of does so reactively?
Cathleen Swody (13:16):
Yeah, I love this question.
And the answer is emotionalintelligence. So, in the first case, the person is being strategic, they're being proactive. They're checking themselves. And this doesn't necessarily require a lot of time. But they're checking their thinking to make sure that their first reaction or their first step is fitting the situation, is going to get them the results they want them. It's going to influence the situation. They're going to get results, and they're going to be seen by
their people as consistent,even though they're shifting
(13:49):
their ways, they're still goingto be seen as consistent,
credible, grounded, becausethey're seen as thoughtful.
Whereas the leaders who havethat more reactive stance,
they're going to be seen as moreemotional, more volatile.
They may be shifting their wayout of a situation, but it seems
almost that they're throwingsomething on the wall to see if
(14:11):
it sticks, right?
People don't quite trust thatthey've put the thought into it.
It just seems like they gotfrustrated and did something
else.
For example, there was a leaderI had worked with who, when
there was a group discussion andit got off track and they
started to get frustrated, theywould say, I can't have this
(14:32):
conversation anymore.
It's no longer constructive.
And they would hang up.
And they gave themselves creditfor saying, hey, well, we got
out of the situation.
The conversation wasn't goinganywhere.
You know, we had it anotherday.
But what they didn't realize isthey were being seen as
reactive and it kind of shutdown the conversation.
So even though they changedtheir ways and, you know,
(14:54):
rebooked the conversationanother day, it didn't have the
impact that they wanted to onother people.
It was seen as more emotionalthan strategic.
Troy Blaser (15:03):
Because it felt so reactive.
Cathleen Swody (15:04):
Yeah, exactly, versus strategic.
Troy Blaser (15:06):
Interesting.
So are there practical ways?
I mean, obviously, the bestadvice is go get the book, learn
the framework, and figure outhow to apply it.
But here in our conversationtoday, is there a practical way
that a manager can begin toapply some of the framework from
the leadership continuum inkind of in their day-to-day
interactions with their team?
Cathleen Swody (15:27):
Yes, one conversation at a time.
So next one-on-one they have.
the next team meeting theyhave, the next issue that pops
onto their plate, whatever itis, just pausing a quick second
and thinking through what is myinitial tendency?
What do I want to do in thissituation?
What's my reaction to what mydirect report said?
(15:48):
And then saying, is that thebest idea?
Is that the best idea I have toreact to that?
Or is there a differentapproach that may be more
effective given the situation athand, given this person's
personality and what they need?
Is that the best way?
So I think it's just checkingour inclinations and saying, is
(16:09):
this the best or should I shifta little bit more in one
direction or the other?
And that can be done on apretty regular basis.
Troy Blaser (16:17):
Kind of engaging that part of your brain A little
more of the monitoring part,right?
So there's part of me that'shaving the conversation, but
there needs to be a separatepart of my brain that's just,
okay, now before you go downthat path, is that the right
path?
There's a little bit of almosta governor on my brain to say,
don't jump down there yet.
Let's think here.
Is there a different path thatwould be a better way for this
(16:39):
conversation to go?
But one conversation at a time.
Cathleen Swody (16:41):
Yeah.
Troy Blaser (16:43):
Just checking as you go.
Well, now I'm curious becausemy wife was telling me as she
goes off to work today, she wasscheduled to have a one-on-one
conversation with her manager.
And maybe I'll check in whenshe gets home and say, okay, how
did it go?
Were there any intentionalpauses where you could see some
reflection happening or was itvery runaway down the path?
(17:04):
So we'll have to see.
Cathleen Swody (17:06):
And that reminds me that one of the best tips I
have related to the one-on-onesis asking a question.
So it doesn't have to be asilent reflection necessarily.
It could be a question of,okay, how can I best support
you, direct report, or what areyou most looking for in this
situation?
And that gets into more of acoaching conversation with them
too.
Troy Blaser (17:26):
Yeah, or if your direct report comes to you with
some issue or a challenge or aproblem and you may have an
immediate reaction, But takingthat minute to ask a question,
to tell me more about that,gives you that chance internally
to think through, is my initialreaction the best reaction or
is there a different way to go?
Cathleen Swody (17:47):
Yeah, it helps you unpack that assumption.
Troy Blaser (17:50):
I like that.
Over the course of your career,you've had the chance to teach
students at the university,right?
So as you're teaching these MBAstudents, these HR students,
Are there ways that youracademic research has shaped
your practical work?
Cathleen Swody (18:07):
Oh, definitely.
So academic academic researchis very humbling.
It teaches us that there's alot of dependencies.
There's there's a lot ofcontext to research.
There's not an easy answer.
And and that it variesdepending on who who.
(18:27):
If something works, who does itwork for?
Under what circumstances?
What else needs to be going on?
That is the frustration ofresearch.
There's no easy button.
There's no perfect thing.
So one, that keeps me humble.
But two, it also...
helps me dig a little bitdeeper and not accept surface
answers.
(18:47):
So if I'm coaching somebody, ifI'm facilitating that, we don't
just scratch the surface andsay, well, this sounds like a
good platitude.
Let's go with that.
But digging a little deeper tosee, well, what's behind that
frame of thinking?
So if we have a manager andtheir first reaction is to jump
into problem solving, well,let's break that down a little
(19:07):
bit.
Under what circumstances?
Do you notice that with certainpeople more than others?
What's the impact of that?
So not just accepting what weforesee, but digging a little
bit deeper so that we canunderstand it and make some real
changes, real impact thatmatters.
Troy Blaser (19:25):
I like that.
Yeah.
As you spent time in theclassroom, were there ways that
you were able to bring lessonsfrom your executive coaching
into the classroom to share withthose students?
Cathleen Swody (19:38):
Yes.
And I want to call thisempathy, but I think it's a
little bit different fromempathy.
And that is when we talk aboutsome of the concepts that make
up leadership or make up goodinterpersonal relationships at
work, sometimes the studentswill look at me and they'll say,
well, that's common sense.
Of course, somebody would dothat.
(19:59):
Nobody in their right mindwould wake up in the morning and
start micromanaging somebody.
That's just a terrible idea,right?
Because it makes a lot of senseconceptually to us not to do
that.
However, because of my deepexperience talking to multiple,
multiple leaders, I canunderstand what's going on in
their heads as they're doingthat.
And it's true.
They didn't wake up in themorning saying, I'm going to be
(20:20):
the world's worst micromanager,but they were worried about a
deadline or they've been soingrained to get results and get
gold stars or they just don'tknow the right way to delegate
or they want to be protective oftheir team.
They don't want to give theirteam members too much work.
So it can come from a reallygood place but how it impacts
(20:42):
others is not what theyintended.
And so being able to explainthat to students or other people
early in their career, it givesthem some empathy and gives
them some understanding of noleader has it all figured out.
We all have these tendencies weneed to manage and mindsets and
habits we need to overcome.
(21:04):
And it's not common sense.
I mean, it is common sense, butit's not common practice.
And so they can kind ofunderstand how that could happen
without ill intent.
Troy Blaser (21:15):
And that's fantastic to be able to bring
into the classroom to say, youknow, I have experienced this.
coaching leaders, coachingmanagers.
Let me share with you, maybeI'm sharing a story or an
example, but it really can bringreal credibility into the
classroom as you're trying toteach these lessons to say, as
(21:35):
counterintuitive as it might be,These managers wind up in a
situation, it's coming from agood place, but they're acting
in a way that's detrimental tothe team overall.
Cathleen Swody (21:44):
That's right.
Troy Blaser (21:45):
And so I think that's really valuable.
Is there a psychologicalinsight or a lesson from your
academic work that you findyourself using repeatedly in
your executive coaching, kind ofgoing the other direction from
academics into sort ofreal-world
Cathleen Swody (22:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So one...
concept that has stuck with methat you know comes immediately
to mind I call it I call itusing your turn signals okay and
there isn't there's a classicexperiment that took place a
long time ago where they hadstudents online or in a line, to
make photocopies and if theygave a reason to the person in
(22:27):
front of them to cut ahead evenif it was general as I need to
make copies, the person was muchmore likely to let them go
ahead um so the thinking was isthat if you give an explanation,
it helps people understand whatyou're trying to do.
And I certainly do not advocatetaking one experiment and using
that as a story and using itall over the place, but it's
(22:50):
stuck in my head.
And that idea of use your turnsignals, explain your why to
people.
And I don't mean that in arationalize everything away and
explain everything in your head,but give them some insight as
to what's behind the decision orwhat's being done or some
context.
And it's because I've seen sooften leaders assume that people
(23:16):
aren't interested or they don'tneed to know or they don't have
time to share the informationwith them.
And it creates this vacuum.
And in a vacuum, our brainsassume that negative things.
So, for example, if a manager,if a leader suddenly sets up a
one-on-one with a person,doesn't tell them why, gives
(23:37):
them no context as to why we'rehaving this meeting, in today's
work environments, that employeeis probably going to be like,
am I in trouble?
What happened?
What did I do?
Am I being let go?
I've been reading the news.
What's going on?
And so giving a little bit ofcontext to why we're having a
meeting, even if it's just asentence, can go a long way.
Or if a leader, you know,cancels a product or moves
(24:01):
things in a completely differentdirection or picks up a new
strategy, just gives a littlebit of context behind why and
what's not changing can reallygo far in terms of helping
people get on board with thechanges in the environment.
Troy Blaser (24:15):
I love that.
I mean, people want to followleaders who are people to them.
And so like you say, givingthat context helps me understand
and relate to that leader tosay, oh, maybe they think like I
do.
And because they shared thatcontext, I'm fully on board with
that.
But if they don't ever sharethat context, then it's just
(24:37):
sort of this blank, like yousaid, a vacuum.
And it's much more reluctant tojump in there.
because I can't relate.
I don't know.
I don't have that biggercontext.
So I really liked that idea.
I want to follow a person, notjust a, yeah, not just an
automaton or a robotor something
Cathleen Swody (24:57):
Right.
And yes, I agree.
And to build on that, followinga person in a direction, right?
People like to follow people,especially those who are forward
moving, right?
So saying, you know, like, hey,here's the benefit of what
we're doing.
You know, even if it's like,hey, I'm going to start giving
more feedback, right?
If all of a sudden that happensin a vacuum, it's like, oh,
(25:17):
what's going on here?
But if you say, hey, we want tocreate a feedback culture.
We want to have conversationsabout how we can be successful
together to do that.
we're gonna start giving morefeedback.
Oh, that feels a lot different.
Troy Blaser (25:29):
Yes, it does.
Well, and looping all the wayback to the beginning of our
conversation, if I know thecontext, I may have an idea in
my head and because you've givenme the context for it, now I'm
like, oh great, let me sharethis idea that can improve or,
or, you know, that maybe Iwouldn't have shared if I didn't
know the, if I didn't know thedirection we were going.
(25:49):
Right.
Oh, you want to go there?
Well, I've had this idea in myhead for a while.
That'll help us get there.
So I'm so glad you said that,you know,
Cathleen Swody (25:56):
Yeah, I'm happy to help, right?
People are more likely to givefeedback if they know where
you're open for it.
Troy Blaser (26:02):
Yes.
So, yeah, continuing to thinkabout feedback.
I know that you recently wrotean article about Gen Z employees
and their desire for meaningfulwork and what that means to a
Gen Z employee, what meaningfulwork means.
How does their relationship tofeedback differ from older
generations?
Cathleen Swody (26:24):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
So my colleague, Kelly Kennedy,has worked with so many Gen Z
and early career professionalsand really has honed in on this
idea of they want purpose andthey want meaning.
And so this isn't to say thatother generations don't, but it
really stands out.
And if you can tie that intofeedback.
(26:46):
it is more likely to be heardand absorbed by early career
professionals.
So if you can give them a pieceof feedback and say, hey,
you're on the right track withthis.
Next time, if you tweak that,this will happen.
And it's going to benefit whatwe're trying to do here in this
way, even if it's justalignment.
So it could be, here's how it'sgoing to help our department.
(27:07):
Here's how it's going to helpthe overall project.
Here's the general culturewe're contributing to.
So helping...
Put it into context beyond apiece of criticism or a piece of
evaluation, but tying it tohere's where we're trying to go.
And that's the intent in whichI'm giving you this feedback is
(27:29):
I want to tie you to that.
And that helps them see themeaning in it.
And the other thing I want tosay is we hear a lot about how
feedback is given within thecontext of a relationship.
And so if they have a goodrelationship with a colleague or
a good relationship with theirmanager and the manager
expresses that this is to helptheir growth and development,
they're more likely to hear andabsorb that.
(27:51):
So I think we're seeing less ofan interest in the annual
reviews and more of an interestin timely, helpful growth and
development suited feedback.
So I think that applies to allgenerations, but I think this
particular group benefits fromit because We hear a lot from
managers who are like, oh, theseyoung people, they're so
(28:13):
entitled.
They want this and they wantthat.
And it's like, they wanthelpful feedback.
I mean, that seems prettyreasonable.
So let's give it to them.
Troy Blaser (28:22):
Cathleen, I wonder, you shared a story earlier in
our conversation about a timewhen you received some feedback
But during your time as a coachand working with some other
leaders, can you share maybe atime when you have seen feedback
cause a point of inflection insomeone else's career or life?
Cathleen Swody (28:41):
I love that phrase, a point of inflection.
There was a leader who I'dworked with who was very good
strategically, got high marksfor what they were doing in the
business, but they foundthemselves at a point in their
career where they just weren'tgetting traction with their
team.
Morale was low.
(29:01):
There was some potentialretention issues bubbling up.
The results were stalling outand there seemed to be a
disconnect.
So we started off as we do withmost of our executive coaching
with some good feedback let'sground ourselves in the data and
what people have to say and thefeedback had some themes in it
(29:21):
around they didn't know wherethey stood with this person and
they didn't know what herperspective was on various
things and they didn't know ifthey were doing a good job or if
they were disappointing her andthey were going to be next on
the list for some type of youknow PIP plan and And so when I
(29:42):
gave her the feedback, there wasthat reaction to it of, I'm
doing what I'm supposed to bedoing.
I'm a good business person.
What do you mean?
They want me to smile.
They want me to pat them on thehead.
They're getting a salary.
Isn't that enough of a signthat they're doing a good job?
What more do they want from me?
Because this person had grownup with a story in their head of
(30:02):
that's how you are a leader.
But they hadn't paid muchattention to how do you connect
with your team in a way thatengages and motivates them.
And, you know, and there was abit of a resistance at first to
to embracing emotionalintelligence.
And they didn't want to put alot of fluffy language in their
world.
And I said, you don't have to.
But, you know, we talked aboutways they could recognize when
(30:26):
people were doing a good job,like what they wanted to see
continue, what they wanted tosee more of, you know, reporting
out on what they were excitedabout or what they were pleased
to see in terms of how theprojects were turning out.
So it was just a turn of phrasehere or there and being a
little bit more deliberate withtheir positive feedback.
And it started to stick.
(30:47):
And when it started to stick,it gave her momentum.
And she realized she could geta lot more done with her team
behind her than on her own.
And so it took a little whileto get there.
But once she found ways thatshe could take the feedback and
make it hers and integrate itinto what she was already doing,
(31:08):
that's when the results reallystarted to happen.
And then she didn't go back.
from there because she wasgetting what she needed to and
the team was happy and they weredoing a lot better all
together.
Troy Blaser (31:19):
I love that.
I thought it was interestingwhat you said, how she took the
feedback and maybe it initiallycame in in a way that didn't
really resonate, but she sort ofinterpreted it into her own it
made it her own um
Cathleen Swody (31:35):
yeah
Troy Blaser (31:36):
you know sometimes I communicate with folks that
are that are different than theway I communicate and I learned
to sort of translate in my headwhen this person says this this
is what they really mean to meright and so I thought that was
interesting the way she tookthat feedback internalized it
and interpreted it in a way thatmade sense to her.
And then you could see, oh,well, now going forward, I can
(31:59):
do that.
I can offer that feedback oroffer that positive feedback, I
guess, or express theappreciation in ways that are
natural and don't feel forced.
But it's exactly what the teamneeded to really make
Cathleen Swody (32:15):
Yeah, it's that translation piece that's so
important.
Troy Blaser (32:18):
Yeah, it must be so rewarding as a coach to have
instances like that where, youknow, you see a change happen
and for the good and it and allof a sudden the team's
functioning on all cylinders nowand you're like, I got to watch
that transformation happen.
Cathleen Swody (32:36):
Yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
Especially because it's part ofthe process.
It doesn't always look likeit's going to go smoothly at
times, right?
Because we're human.
We react to things.
And if you can't speak insafety with your coach, who can
you speak in safety to, right?
And then getting to the pointof action, it's tremendously
rewarding.
Troy Blaser (32:53):
So, you know, as you think about our audience, HR
professionals, other folks thatare interested in feedback,
interested in leadership, AndI'm not asking you to give away
your secret sauce, but is theresome specific advice that you
could give to our listeners,maybe around leadership or
around feedback?
What's something that you'velearned that you would share
(33:14):
with someone else in yourposition?
Cathleen Swody (33:17):
Well, something I have run into time and time
again, so maybe this is just areminder to myself, is that
Insights are great, but they'renot impact.
In order to get impact, we needto have follow-up, we need to
have traction, and we need tomake it sticky.
And so I am constantly findingmyself working that angle of how
do we make it stick?
(33:38):
How am I going to get thisperson to continue doing this
for their own sake when I'm nothere, when I'm not meeting with
them anymore, when theengagement is over?
Or if we do an employee survey,how do we know they're actually
going to action plan andimplement?
And sometimes people getthrough the assessment process
and they're done right and andthat you know but that
stickiness is where it gets itactually becomes impact and
(34:02):
turning those insights intohabits and part of the business
that's that's the challengeBecause it sounds great in
theory, but sometimes people gettired and they want to move on
and they get busy with the restof the work that they have to
do.
So constantly looking for waysto weave it in, just like that
example with the leader Idescribed.
Troy Blaser (34:20):
Find ways to change the behavior that you just, the
feedback about your currentbehavior is useful, but it's
only the beginning.
You've got to figure out whatam I going to do differently
going forward and make it stick,like you said, to really to
have an effective change.
Insights are not impact.
I like that.
Well, Cathleen, I have lovedthis conversation that we've
(34:41):
had.
I'm sure we could continuetalking for a long, long time.
But if people do want to knowmore, or if they want to
continue the conversation thatwe've been having, what should
they do?
What are ways that they canconnect with you?
Cathleen Swody (34:53):
Yeah, I'm always up for a thoughtful
conversation and a connection,especially on these topics.
They are near and dear to myheart.
The best way to reach me is onLinkedIn.
I'm the only Cathleen Swody outthere, so I should be pretty
easy to find.
And certainly the book isavailable wherever books are
sold.
Troy Blaser (35:11):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you so much forbeing a guest today.
Like I said, I had a wonderfultime.
Thank you, Cathleen.
Cathleen Swody (35:17):
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
Anytime, Troy.
Thank you so much.
Sometimes the students will look at me and
they'll say, well, that's commonsense.
Of course, somebody would dothat.
Nobody in their right mindwould wake up in the morning and
start micromanaging somebody.
That's just a terrible idea,right?
Because it makes a lot of senseconceptually to us not to do
that.
However, because of my deepexperience talking to multiple,
multiple leaders, I canunderstand what's going on in
(00:23):
their heads as they're doingthat.
And it's true, they didn't wakeup in the morning saying, I'm
going to be the world's worstmicromanager, but they were
worried about a deadline, orthey've been so ingrained to get
results and get gold stars, orthey just don't know the right
way to delegate, or they want tobe protective of their team.
They don't want to give theirteam members too much work.
(00:44):
So it can come from a reallygood place, but how it impacts
others is not what theyintended.
Troy Blaser (00:56):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Simply
Feedback, the podcast brought toyou by LearningBridge.
I'm your host, Troy Blaser.
It's great to be with youtoday.
I'm very excited about ourguest today, who is Cathleen
Swody, PhD.
Cathleen is an executive coachand organizational psychologist
who helps leaders see what'sholding them back and what will
(01:18):
move them forward.
She is the co-author of TheLeadership Continuum, and she
brings sharp insight andreal-world perspectives from two
decades of shaping leaders andteams that thrive.
Cathleen, welcome to SimplyFeedback.
It's great to have you with ustoday.
Cathleen Swody (01:34):
Thank you, Troy.
I'm happy to be here.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to talk aboutfeedback because you can't see
what's holding you back and youcan't see how to move forward
without feedback.
So happy to be here.
Troy Blaser (01:46):
Fantastic.
Well, in that vein, and maybeto help us get to know you just
a little better, I wonder if youcan tell us about a time that
somebody gave you feedback inyour life.
Maybe it was a time when thisfeedback made an impact on your
career or on your personal life.
Is there a story that you canshare with us?
Cathleen Swody (02:03):
Yeah, definitely.
So there was a time a whileback where I was in an all day
session with a variety ofsubject matter experts and I was
listening intently.
My style tends to be morereserved.
I was paying a lot ofattention, having great ideas,
but I was keeping them tomyself.
And I had a colleague whoduring a break in a couple
(02:26):
sentences simply told me that hecould see the wheels turning in
my head and that it would be abenefit to the team to share
some of those ideas, even ifthey weren't perfectly
positioned or weren't perfectlysaid, just to get my ideas out
there, share my insights.
And basically he conveyed thatto not do so was a disservice to
(02:49):
those in the room.
And that resonated with mebecause my main goal is to help
people.
And so if I'm not beinghelpful, then that's a sign for
me.
So he said it in a very kindway.
And I went back into the roomand I was able to share a few
insights.
But what I took away from thatwas more than that one meeting,
more than that one session andmore than those couple of
(03:11):
insights.
It was that I don't have tohave a perfect sentence in order
to share my authentic point ofview or my perspective or what
I'm observing in the room.
I don't have to have all theanswers and be the number one
expert to add value.
And that is something that wasa shift for me because it was a
lot different than giving me thepiece of feedback like, hey,
(03:33):
speak up more or we need to hearyou talk more.
But it was like, hey, I see anopportunity to you to add value
in your own way.
Here's how you might do that.
And I've taken that to heart interms of when I've been invited
to go speak places or I've beeninvited to be on the panel of
media experts for the AmericanPsychological Association or
(03:53):
even this podcast.
Right.
I get the invitation and I'mlike, I'm sure there's lots of
experts and feedback who theycan invite.
And you have invited.
I've seen the list of podcasts.
Troy Blaser (04:02):
Right.
Cathleen Swody (04:03):
But I was like, well, maybe I have something to
offer.
So let me offer it to you andsee if you accept it.
So that was that was a pivotfor
Troy B (04:11):
I love that idea of just getting it out there because
you never know what's going tohappen.
If you keep the ideas in yourhead, you do know what's going
to happen and they're going tostay there and maybe they get
improved or polished as youthink about them over time.
But if you get that idea out inthe room, it's hard to tell
what's going to happen with it.
It might be a flop.
It might be a non-starting kindof idea or someone else might
(04:34):
pick it up and improve it andmake it better.
even than you would have onyour own.
And so that was really greatfeedback.
The other interesting thingthat I like in that is that
there was someone in that roomthat was observant enough to see
that going on on your face orinside your head or whatever and
say, no, I can tell there'ssomething going on in there and
(04:56):
enough of a mentor to just say,Hey, here's a piece of advice or
feedback or whatever that wouldhelp you and help all of us in
the room if you get to sharethose ideas.
Cathleen Swody (05:09):
Absolutely.
A bit of a nudge.
And it's interesting becausethat's not actually a piece of
feedback that I often give toleaders for general
facilitation.
If you notice somebody who'sengaged yet quiet, see if you
can pull out from their headwhat's going on because they
might have some goodobservations because they have
been quiet.
(05:29):
And to your point, ideas don'tlive in isolation.
They bounce off of each otherand they go back and forth in
conversation.
So let's bring them to lightand see where they go, see where
they take us in those meetings.
Troy Blaser (05:42):
I love that.
So the book that youco-authored is called The
Leadership Continuum, HowFlexing Across the Seven Facets
of Leadership IncreasesEffectiveness.
Can you explain to us the coreidea behind flexing leadership
styles and why it's critical intoday's workplace?
Cathleen Swody (06:00):
Yeah.
So the underlying assumption isthat leaders, in order to be
most effective, they need toadapt to three different things.
They need to adapt to thesituation at hand.
They need to adapt to thespecific people that they're
working with.
And they need to adapt to thekinds of results that they want
(06:21):
to go for.
And in today's workplace, whichis even more fast paced and
more uncertain, things arechanging pretty rapidly.
So being able to read the room,even if the room is more of the
market and the situationbroader, but being able to read
the room and then respondappropriate to it is an
(06:41):
advantage.
And for most of us humans, whenwe're under stress and we're
under pressure, Our brains tendto go on autopilot.
We tend to revert back towhat's worked for us in the
past.
We double down on what hasworked, what our most comfort
zone is, when really we need totake a step back, a quick pause,
(07:02):
and deliberately decide what'sthe best move here.
How do I want to lead mypeople?
How do I want to lead thesituation in order to get the
best results, rather than justrelying on pure autopilot?
So it's really about being moreintentional in how we adapt to
situations.
Troy Blaser (07:18):
I think that's important to be aware enough to
avoid that trap of going onautopilot and saying, let me be
deliberate in my leadershipstyle and make sure that it's an
appropriate way to respond tothe situation, as you mentioned.
Of the seven facets ofleadership that you talk about
(07:40):
in the book, are there one ortwo that you've seen where
leaders most commonly sort ofget stuck?
Cathleen Swody (07:46):
Yeah, so we boiled down to seven, but there
is one that really stands out tome where I see leaders get
stuck most often.
And that is the facet ofintensity.
So for each of these facets,they're on a continuum.
So on one side, you have, youknow, passionate, right for
intensity.
On the other side, you havevery patient and planful.
And I've seen a lot of leaderswho've been rewarded as they
(08:09):
were coming up the ranks forbeing very action oriented, for
getting results for moving forhaving a strong drive, a strong
passion.
And that serves in a lot ofsituations.
But sometimes it doesn't.
For example, when you have avery complex problem that you're
(08:30):
dealing with, right?
In the book, we talk aboutApollo 13, right?
Ready fire was not an option.
There were going to be some badoutcomes if we did that.
Yes, they needed urgency, butthey also needed to do some
aiming.
They needed to be reallythoughtful.
So they needed to weave thatin.
So it's important to be alittle bit more patient and not
(08:51):
rush things to check the box, toget things done when you have
that kind of complexity and youneed to let the team work
through the problem.
Or if you have multiplestakeholders across the
organization and you need toalign them, pushing through is
going to make them feel like asteamroller came over them.
And that's not going to go wellin terms of accepting the
(09:14):
changes or accepting the newproduct.
So it's pressing pause.
And that's really hard forpeople who've been trained their
careers to keep pushing,pushing, pushing.
Troy Blaser (09:25):
Well, yeah.
And especially in today'smodern workplace with
technology, there's very much,there's very often that
attitude, right, of move fastand break things.
And you're saying often,especially with with highly
complex situations, the rightstep is to do a little bit more
planning, have a little morepatience before jumping in and
(09:48):
firing away, right?
Cathleen Swody (09:50):
Yeah, that's right.
And connecting with the team,giving them a chance to do their
thing.
Because oftentimes if leadersare leaning too far on that
intensity scale towards thatpassionate piece, that drive at
getting things done, their teammembers feel that they don't
have a voice.
They don't have a chance to dothings.
They don't have a chance toweigh in on the solution.
And they're like, why are wehere?
Troy Blaser (10:12):
Yeah. Like I can, I've been in those situations
where it's like, I can bring alot to this role, but it sounds
like all you want from me is tojust do the automated task or
whatever.
You don't want me to bethinking about it.
And that's definitely lesssatisfying way to be a part of a
team.
Cathleen Swody (10:28):
Oh, yeah.
And it's very difficult to growand develop and thrive in those
situations.
And so leaders who arecognizant of when it's time to
give their people a space to donon-automated tasks, they're the
ones who are going to grow anddevelop their people.
And that creates thatleadership pipeline.
Troy Blaser (10:46):
So thinking about simply feedback, are there ways
that feedback can help a leaderidentify when their current
style isn't working and maybethey need to flex?
Cathleen Swody (10:58):
A hundred percent.
That is the only way people aregoing to shift in terms of how
they how they respond to thesesituations, because it is so
ingrained.
We do have these naturaltendencies.
And so either they're going toget feedback in terms of a big
mistake at work, which, youknow, we don't want.
But more ideally, they'll getfeedback from their teams, from
(11:19):
the people that they're workingwith, that the style isn't
working, that that people areconfused, that people don't see
the urgency, that they feel thateverything is working.
Everything is a fire drill.
That's a comment I often see inthe feedback reports.
Everything is a fire drill.
If everything is urgent,nothing is urgent.
Or the person, the leaderdisappears and then all of a
sudden they appear and this itemon their task list is suddenly
(11:42):
the number one priority and wegot to get it done today and
we're rushing it, we're makingmistakes.
So you definitely hear it inthe feedback and you need that
feedback in order to raise theself-awareness that for people
to know, okay, this styledoesn't work for everything and
recognizing that there's a valueto shifting a little bit.
I mean, we're not asking peopleto completely change their
(12:03):
ways, but just shift a littlebit, a little bit more to that
planful stage.
And that requires feedback tocall it out and bring it to
their attention.
Troy Blaser (12:12):
Well, and even thinking about gathering
feedback in the first place onthat intensity facet, you know,
you can...
the feedback is going to comeone way or another.
It's either going to come whenyou've jumped in without
planning and then you fail andthen there's going to be
feedback or you can be a littlebit more proactive, make room
(12:33):
for the feedback As you'regoing, right?
And then you're receiving thatfeedback as you go along and
your aim is then much better.
You've made room for thefeedback.
And then when you fire, you'remuch more likely to be on
target, I suppose, if we'recontinuing with that analogy.
Cathleen Swody (12:50):
Oh, definitely.
Yeah, you're able to adjust asyou go instead of having a
catastrophe,
Troy Blaser (12:56):
Yes.
Cathleen Swody (12:57):
Which nobody wants, right?
It's a very costly way to getfeedback instead of getting it
on a regular basis.
Troy Blaser (13:04):
Yeah.
So in your experience, what isthe difference between a leader
who adapts their styleintentionally versus a leader
who kind of does so reactively?
Cathleen Swody (13:16):
Yeah, I love this question.
And the answer is emotionalintelligence. So, in the first case, the person is being strategic, they're being proactive. They're checking themselves. And this doesn't necessarily require a lot of time. But they're checking their thinking to make sure that their first reaction or their first step is fitting the situation, is going to get them the results they want them. It's going to influence the situation. They're going to get results, and they're going to be seen by
their people as consistent,even though they're shifting
(13:49):
their ways, they're still goingto be seen as consistent,
credible, grounded, becausethey're seen as thoughtful.
Whereas the leaders who havethat more reactive stance,
they're going to be seen as moreemotional, more volatile.
They may be shifting their wayout of a situation, but it seems
almost that they're throwingsomething on the wall to see if
(14:11):
it sticks, right?
People don't quite trust thatthey've put the thought into it.
It just seems like they gotfrustrated and did something
else.
For example, there was a leaderI had worked with who, when
there was a group discussion andit got off track and they
started to get frustrated, theywould say, I can't have this
(14:32):
conversation anymore.
It's no longer constructive.
And they would hang up.
And they gave themselves creditfor saying, hey, well, we got
out of the situation.
The conversation wasn't goinganywhere.
You know, we had it anotherday.
But what they didn't realize isthey were being seen as
reactive and it kind of shutdown the conversation.
So even though they changedtheir ways and, you know,
(14:54):
rebooked the conversationanother day, it didn't have the
impact that they wanted to onother people.
It was seen as more emotionalthan strategic.
Troy Blaser (15:03):
Because it felt so reactive.
Cathleen Swody (15:04):
Yeah, exactly, versus strategic.
Troy Blaser (15:06):
Interesting.
So are there practical ways?
I mean, obviously, the bestadvice is go get the book, learn
the framework, and figure outhow to apply it.
But here in our conversationtoday, is there a practical way
that a manager can begin toapply some of the framework from
the leadership continuum inkind of in their day-to-day
interactions with their team?
Cathleen Swody (15:27):
Yes, one conversation at a time.
So next one-on-one they have.
the next team meeting theyhave, the next issue that pops
onto their plate, whatever itis, just pausing a quick second
and thinking through what is myinitial tendency?
What do I want to do in thissituation?
What's my reaction to what mydirect report said?
(15:48):
And then saying, is that thebest idea?
Is that the best idea I have toreact to that?
Or is there a differentapproach that may be more
effective given the situation athand, given this person's
personality and what they need?
Is that the best way?
So I think it's just checkingour inclinations and saying, is
(16:09):
this the best or should I shifta little bit more in one
direction or the other?
And that can be done on apretty regular basis.
Troy Blaser (16:17):
Kind of engaging that part of your brain A little
more of the monitoring part,right?
So there's part of me that'shaving the conversation, but
there needs to be a separatepart of my brain that's just,
okay, now before you go downthat path, is that the right
path?
There's a little bit of almosta governor on my brain to say,
don't jump down there yet.
Let's think here.
Is there a different path thatwould be a better way for this
(16:39):
conversation to go?
But one conversation at a time.
Cathleen Swody (16:41):
Yeah.
Troy Blaser (16:43):
Just checking as you go.
Well, now I'm curious becausemy wife was telling me as she
goes off to work today, she wasscheduled to have a one-on-one
conversation with her manager.
And maybe I'll check in whenshe gets home and say, okay, how
did it go?
Were there any intentionalpauses where you could see some
reflection happening or was itvery runaway down the path?
(17:04):
So we'll have to see.
Cathleen Swody (17:06):
And that reminds me that one of the best tips I
have related to the one-on-onesis asking a question.
So it doesn't have to be asilent reflection necessarily.
It could be a question of,okay, how can I best support
you, direct report, or what areyou most looking for in this
situation?
And that gets into more of acoaching conversation with them
too.
Troy Blaser (17:26):
Yeah, or if your direct report comes to you with
some issue or a challenge or aproblem and you may have an
immediate reaction, But takingthat minute to ask a question,
to tell me more about that,gives you that chance internally
to think through, is my initialreaction the best reaction or
is there a different way to go?
Cathleen Swody (17:47):
Yeah, it helps you unpack that assumption.
Troy Blaser (17:50):
I like that.
Over the course of your career,you've had the chance to teach
students at the university,right?
So as you're teaching these MBAstudents, these HR students,
Are there ways that youracademic research has shaped
your practical work?
Cathleen Swody (18:07):
Oh, definitely.
So academic academic researchis very humbling.
It teaches us that there's alot of dependencies.
There's there's a lot ofcontext to research.
There's not an easy answer.
And and that it variesdepending on who who.
(18:27):
If something works, who does itwork for?
Under what circumstances?
What else needs to be going on?
That is the frustration ofresearch.
There's no easy button.
There's no perfect thing.
So one, that keeps me humble.
But two, it also...
helps me dig a little bitdeeper and not accept surface
answers.
(18:47):
So if I'm coaching somebody, ifI'm facilitating that, we don't
just scratch the surface andsay, well, this sounds like a
good platitude.
Let's go with that.
But digging a little deeper tosee, well, what's behind that
frame of thinking?
So if we have a manager andtheir first reaction is to jump
into problem solving, well,let's break that down a little
(19:07):
bit.
Under what circumstances?
Do you notice that with certainpeople more than others?
What's the impact of that?
So not just accepting what weforesee, but digging a little
bit deeper so that we canunderstand it and make some real
changes, real impact thatmatters.
Troy Blaser (19:25):
I like that.
Yeah.
As you spent time in theclassroom, were there ways that
you were able to bring lessonsfrom your executive coaching
into the classroom to share withthose students?
Cathleen Swody (19:38):
Yes.
And I want to call thisempathy, but I think it's a
little bit different fromempathy.
And that is when we talk aboutsome of the concepts that make
up leadership or make up goodinterpersonal relationships at
work, sometimes the studentswill look at me and they'll say,
well, that's common sense.
Of course, somebody would dothat.
(19:59):
Nobody in their right mindwould wake up in the morning and
start micromanaging somebody.
That's just a terrible idea,right?
Because it makes a lot of senseconceptually to us not to do
that.
However, because of my deepexperience talking to multiple,
multiple leaders, I canunderstand what's going on in
their heads as they're doingthat.
And it's true.
They didn't wake up in themorning saying, I'm going to be
(20:20):
the world's worst micromanager,but they were worried about a
deadline or they've been soingrained to get results and get
gold stars or they just don'tknow the right way to delegate
or they want to be protective oftheir team.
They don't want to give theirteam members too much work.
So it can come from a reallygood place but how it impacts
(20:42):
others is not what theyintended.
And so being able to explainthat to students or other people
early in their career, it givesthem some empathy and gives
them some understanding of noleader has it all figured out.
We all have these tendencies weneed to manage and mindsets and
habits we need to overcome.
(21:04):
And it's not common sense.
I mean, it is common sense, butit's not common practice.
And so they can kind ofunderstand how that could happen
without ill intent.
Troy Blaser (21:15):
And that's fantastic to be able to bring
into the classroom to say, youknow, I have experienced this.
coaching leaders, coachingmanagers.
Let me share with you, maybeI'm sharing a story or an
example, but it really can bringreal credibility into the
classroom as you're trying toteach these lessons to say, as
(21:35):
counterintuitive as it might be,These managers wind up in a
situation, it's coming from agood place, but they're acting
in a way that's detrimental tothe team overall.
Cathleen Swody (21:44):
That's right.
Troy Blaser (21:45):
And so I think that's really valuable.
Is there a psychologicalinsight or a lesson from your
academic work that you findyourself using repeatedly in
your executive coaching, kind ofgoing the other direction from
academics into sort ofreal-world
Cathleen Swody (22:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So one...
concept that has stuck with methat you know comes immediately
to mind I call it I call itusing your turn signals okay and
there isn't there's a classicexperiment that took place a
long time ago where they hadstudents online or in a line, to
make photocopies and if theygave a reason to the person in
(22:27):
front of them to cut ahead evenif it was general as I need to
make copies, the person was muchmore likely to let them go
ahead um so the thinking was isthat if you give an explanation,
it helps people understand whatyou're trying to do.
And I certainly do not advocatetaking one experiment and using
that as a story and using itall over the place, but it's
(22:50):
stuck in my head.
And that idea of use your turnsignals, explain your why to
people.
And I don't mean that in arationalize everything away and
explain everything in your head,but give them some insight as
to what's behind the decision orwhat's being done or some
context.
And it's because I've seen sooften leaders assume that people
(23:16):
aren't interested or they don'tneed to know or they don't have
time to share the informationwith them.
And it creates this vacuum.
And in a vacuum, our brainsassume that negative things.
So, for example, if a manager,if a leader suddenly sets up a
one-on-one with a person,doesn't tell them why, gives
(23:37):
them no context as to why we'rehaving this meeting, in today's
work environments, that employeeis probably going to be like,
am I in trouble?
What happened?
What did I do?
Am I being let go?
I've been reading the news.
What's going on?
And so giving a little bit ofcontext to why we're having a
meeting, even if it's just asentence, can go a long way.
Or if a leader, you know,cancels a product or moves
(24:01):
things in a completely differentdirection or picks up a new
strategy, just gives a littlebit of context behind why and
what's not changing can reallygo far in terms of helping
people get on board with thechanges in the environment.
Troy Blaser (24:15):
I love that.
I mean, people want to followleaders who are people to them.
And so like you say, givingthat context helps me understand
and relate to that leader tosay, oh, maybe they think like I
do.
And because they shared thatcontext, I'm fully on board with
that.
But if they don't ever sharethat context, then it's just
(24:37):
sort of this blank, like yousaid, a vacuum.
And it's much more reluctant tojump in there.
because I can't relate.
I don't know.
I don't have that biggercontext.
So I really liked that idea.
I want to follow a person, notjust a, yeah, not just an
automaton or a robotor something
Cathleen Swody (24:57):
Right.
And yes, I agree.
And to build on that, followinga person in a direction, right?
People like to follow people,especially those who are forward
moving, right?
So saying, you know, like, hey,here's the benefit of what
we're doing.
You know, even if it's like,hey, I'm going to start giving
more feedback, right?
If all of a sudden that happensin a vacuum, it's like, oh,
(25:17):
what's going on here?
But if you say, hey, we want tocreate a feedback culture.
We want to have conversationsabout how we can be successful
together to do that.
we're gonna start giving morefeedback.
Oh, that feels a lot different.
Troy Blaser (25:29):
Yes, it does.
Well, and looping all the wayback to the beginning of our
conversation, if I know thecontext, I may have an idea in
my head and because you've givenme the context for it, now I'm
like, oh great, let me sharethis idea that can improve or,
or, you know, that maybe Iwouldn't have shared if I didn't
know the, if I didn't know thedirection we were going.
(25:49):
Right.
Oh, you want to go there?
Well, I've had this idea in myhead for a while.
That'll help us get there.
So I'm so glad you said that,you know,
Cathleen Swody (25:56):
Yeah, I'm happy to help, right?
People are more likely to givefeedback if they know where
you're open for it.
Troy Blaser (26:02):
Yes.
So, yeah, continuing to thinkabout feedback.
I know that you recently wrotean article about Gen Z employees
and their desire for meaningfulwork and what that means to a
Gen Z employee, what meaningfulwork means.
How does their relationship tofeedback differ from older
generations?
Cathleen Swody (26:24):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
So my colleague, Kelly Kennedy,has worked with so many Gen Z
and early career professionalsand really has honed in on this
idea of they want purpose andthey want meaning.
And so this isn't to say thatother generations don't, but it
really stands out.
And if you can tie that intofeedback.
(26:46):
it is more likely to be heardand absorbed by early career
professionals.
So if you can give them a pieceof feedback and say, hey,
you're on the right track withthis.
Next time, if you tweak that,this will happen.
And it's going to benefit whatwe're trying to do here in this
way, even if it's justalignment.
So it could be, here's how it'sgoing to help our department.
(27:07):
Here's how it's going to helpthe overall project.
Here's the general culturewe're contributing to.
So helping...
Put it into context beyond apiece of criticism or a piece of
evaluation, but tying it tohere's where we're trying to go.
And that's the intent in whichI'm giving you this feedback is
(27:29):
I want to tie you to that.
And that helps them see themeaning in it.
And the other thing I want tosay is we hear a lot about how
feedback is given within thecontext of a relationship.
And so if they have a goodrelationship with a colleague or
a good relationship with theirmanager and the manager
expresses that this is to helptheir growth and development,
they're more likely to hear andabsorb that.
(27:51):
So I think we're seeing less ofan interest in the annual
reviews and more of an interestin timely, helpful growth and
development suited feedback.
So I think that applies to allgenerations, but I think this
particular group benefits fromit because We hear a lot from
managers who are like, oh, theseyoung people, they're so
(28:13):
entitled.
They want this and they wantthat.
And it's like, they wanthelpful feedback.
I mean, that seems prettyreasonable.
So let's give it to them.
Troy Blaser (28:22):
Cathleen, I wonder, you shared a story earlier in
our conversation about a timewhen you received some feedback
But during your time as a coachand working with some other
leaders, can you share maybe atime when you have seen feedback
cause a point of inflection insomeone else's career or life?
Cathleen Swody (28:41):
I love that phrase, a point of inflection.
There was a leader who I'dworked with who was very good
strategically, got high marksfor what they were doing in the
business, but they foundthemselves at a point in their
career where they just weren'tgetting traction with their
team.
Morale was low.
(29:01):
There was some potentialretention issues bubbling up.
The results were stalling outand there seemed to be a
disconnect.
So we started off as we do withmost of our executive coaching
with some good feedback let'sground ourselves in the data and
what people have to say and thefeedback had some themes in it
(29:21):
around they didn't know wherethey stood with this person and
they didn't know what herperspective was on various
things and they didn't know ifthey were doing a good job or if
they were disappointing her andthey were going to be next on
the list for some type of youknow PIP plan and And so when I
(29:42):
gave her the feedback, there wasthat reaction to it of, I'm
doing what I'm supposed to bedoing.
I'm a good business person.
What do you mean?
They want me to smile.
They want me to pat them on thehead.
They're getting a salary.
Isn't that enough of a signthat they're doing a good job?
What more do they want from me?
Because this person had grownup with a story in their head of
(30:02):
that's how you are a leader.
But they hadn't paid muchattention to how do you connect
with your team in a way thatengages and motivates them.
And, you know, and there was abit of a resistance at first to
to embracing emotionalintelligence.
And they didn't want to put alot of fluffy language in their
world.
And I said, you don't have to.
But, you know, we talked aboutways they could recognize when
(30:26):
people were doing a good job,like what they wanted to see
continue, what they wanted tosee more of, you know, reporting
out on what they were excitedabout or what they were pleased
to see in terms of how theprojects were turning out.
So it was just a turn of phrasehere or there and being a
little bit more deliberate withtheir positive feedback.
And it started to stick.
(30:47):
And when it started to stick,it gave her momentum.
And she realized she could geta lot more done with her team
behind her than on her own.
And so it took a little whileto get there.
But once she found ways thatshe could take the feedback and
make it hers and integrate itinto what she was already doing,
(31:08):
that's when the results reallystarted to happen.
And then she didn't go back.
from there because she wasgetting what she needed to and
the team was happy and they weredoing a lot better all
together.
Troy Blaser (31:19):
I love that.
I thought it was interestingwhat you said, how she took the
feedback and maybe it initiallycame in in a way that didn't
really resonate, but she sort ofinterpreted it into her own it
made it her own um
Cathleen Swody (31:35):
yeah
Troy Blaser (31:36):
you know sometimes I communicate with folks that
are that are different than theway I communicate and I learned
to sort of translate in my headwhen this person says this this
is what they really mean to meright and so I thought that was
interesting the way she tookthat feedback internalized it
and interpreted it in a way thatmade sense to her.
And then you could see, oh,well, now going forward, I can
(31:59):
do that.
I can offer that feedback oroffer that positive feedback, I
guess, or express theappreciation in ways that are
natural and don't feel forced.
But it's exactly what the teamneeded to really make
Cathleen Swody (32:15):
Yeah, it's that translation piece that's so
important.
Troy Blaser (32:18):
Yeah, it must be so rewarding as a coach to have
instances like that where, youknow, you see a change happen
and for the good and it and allof a sudden the team's
functioning on all cylinders nowand you're like, I got to watch
that transformation happen.
Cathleen Swody (32:36):
Yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
Especially because it's part ofthe process.
It doesn't always look likeit's going to go smoothly at
times, right?
Because we're human.
We react to things.
And if you can't speak insafety with your coach, who can
you speak in safety to, right?
And then getting to the pointof action, it's tremendously
rewarding.
Troy Blaser (32:53):
So, you know, as you think about our audience, HR
professionals, other folks thatare interested in feedback,
interested in leadership, AndI'm not asking you to give away
your secret sauce, but is theresome specific advice that you
could give to our listeners,maybe around leadership or
around feedback?
What's something that you'velearned that you would share
(33:14):
with someone else in yourposition?
Cathleen Swody (33:17):
Well, something I have run into time and time
again, so maybe this is just areminder to myself, is that
Insights are great, but they'renot impact.
In order to get impact, we needto have follow-up, we need to
have traction, and we need tomake it sticky.
And so I am constantly findingmyself working that angle of how
do we make it stick?
(33:38):
How am I going to get thisperson to continue doing this
for their own sake when I'm nothere, when I'm not meeting with
them anymore, when theengagement is over?
Or if we do an employee survey,how do we know they're actually
going to action plan andimplement?
And sometimes people getthrough the assessment process
and they're done right and andthat you know but that
stickiness is where it gets itactually becomes impact and
(34:02):
turning those insights intohabits and part of the business
that's that's the challengeBecause it sounds great in
theory, but sometimes people gettired and they want to move on
and they get busy with the restof the work that they have to
do.
So constantly looking for waysto weave it in, just like that
example with the leader Idescribed.
Troy Blaser (34:20):
Find ways to change the behavior that you just, the
feedback about your currentbehavior is useful, but it's
only the beginning.
You've got to figure out whatam I going to do differently
going forward and make it stick,like you said, to really to
have an effective change.
Insights are not impact.
I like that.
Well, Cathleen, I have lovedthis conversation that we've
(34:41):
had.
I'm sure we could continuetalking for a long, long time.
But if people do want to knowmore, or if they want to
continue the conversation thatwe've been having, what should
they do?
What are ways that they canconnect with you?
Cathleen Swody (34:53):
Yeah, I'm always up for a thoughtful
conversation and a connection,especially on these topics.
They are near and dear to myheart.
The best way to reach me is onLinkedIn.
I'm the only Cathleen Swody outthere, so I should be pretty
easy to find.
And certainly the book isavailable wherever books are
sold.
Troy Blaser (35:11):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you so much forbeing a guest today.
Like I said, I had a wonderfultime.
Thank you, Cathleen.
Cathleen Swody (35:17):
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
Anytime, Troy.
Thank you so much.
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