Off Script: Pretend, Murder She Told & Sins and Survivors Spill the Tea

Join hosts Javier from Pretend, Kristen Seavey from Murder She Told, and Shaun from Sins and Survivors for a special holiday crossover episode where three true crime podcasters let their guard down and talk shop.

Enjoy this conversation and be sure to check out the rest:

• Jessie (Love Murder), Bob (Buried), Joshua (Somewhere in the Pines)
• John (Sins & Survivors), Nina (Already Gone), Robin (The Trail Went Cold)
• Patrick (True Crime Obsessed), Josh (True Crime Bullsh**), Eric (True Consequences)
• Gillian (True Crime Obsessed), Alvin (Affirmative Murder), Lanie (True Crime Cases with Lanie)
• Aaron (Generation Why), Lucy (Wine & Crime), Kristen (Murder, She Told)
• Amanda (Wine & Crime), Josh (True Crime Bullsh**), Andie (Love Murder), Charlie (Crimelines)

https://sinspod.co/104
https://sinspod.co/104transcript

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
To listen ad free visit simspod dot com slash subscribe
starting at two ninety nine a month. You'll also get
access to our exclusive bonus content episodes when you join
through Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Thanks for supporting the show.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi everyone. For the month of December, some of our
favorite true crime creators are getting together for conversations about podcasting,
true crime and how it all comes together. I was
invited to take part in a very special episode with
Kristin Cevie of Murder She Told and Javier Leva of
The Pretend Podcast to discuss how we create our shows,
the cases that have gripped us, our hopes for twenty

(00:36):
twenty six, our lives beyond true crime, and the joy
our true crime community brings us. It was such an
energizing and honest conversation that I found myself sharing some
information about my plans for twenty twenty six that I
have only shared with some of my closest friends. I'm
grateful to Kristen and Javier for their support, friendship, and
insight as creators. I hope this episode brightens your holiday

(00:58):
season and gives you something meaningful as we head into
the new year. When you're done listening, be sure to
check out their shows at sinspod dot co slash Murder
She Told and sinspod dot co slash Pretend. And with that,
let's get into it.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Hey, guys, it's me Howier. I'm the host of the
Pretend podcast. So if you don't recognize my voice, that's
because you're also listening to this on Murder she Told
with Kristin or Sins and Survivors with Sean. Thank you
so much, guys. This is my second year of doing
this podcaster true crime podcaster cross collaboration during the holidays,

(01:32):
and I'm so looking forward to this conversation same.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
I really enjoyed it last year. And because my show
is so straightforward and serious and scripted, I feel like
my audience doesn't really get to hear a lot of
this kind of just conversation. So it's really fun.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
And I'm I'm new to podcasting and this is my
first year doing this, so I'm glad that I get
to show some of the other sides of my personality
that people don't get to see in every episode.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yeah. So today, hey, we are simulcasting, right, So this
episode is playing on all three feeds your assignment listeners
is to check out all these shows because they're really excellent.
And you know you love the show that you're listening to,
but I guarantee you that you're gonna love the other
shows too, So go check it out. But without further ado,
let's let's get into it. What do you guys, Let's

(02:21):
do it, let's task it.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
I was going to ask first if there was anything
that really stuck out this year that I do you
worked on?

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well, Kristin, I have to plug what we worked on together. Christin.
I were part of a presentation at the True Crime
Podcast Festival about Everybody's you know, sexiest criminal alive, Luigi Mangioni.
We we were with Amanda from Wine and Crime and
we did sort of a panel discussion on what is

(02:54):
with this obsession with Luigi and what does that say
about our culture? And what do we think could happen
if he's found guilty of the murder or could he
possibly be found not guilty and then what could happen
and how do we cover these cases where there's a
lot of what was the word you use, Kristin to explain,

(03:15):
like we people connect with Luigi's alleged motive or mission
or purpose, the message he was trying to send with
his actions, with the fact that someone was shot dead
on the sidewalk of New York City, how do you
balance those as a true crime podcaster when you're also
trying to you know, be ethical and respect that this

(03:38):
man had a family and those kinds of issues. So
that was one of the I called it at TCPF.
I called it kind of a full circle moment for
me because Kristin was the first person that I talked
to about possibly starting my own podcast, So it was
like a chance for us to work together and that
was a real highlight of the year for me.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (03:57):
No, that was awesome. And I remember you coming up
to me and you know, shooting some ideas out and
I just told you to go for it. And I
think it's so cool that, like a couple of years later,
you guys have a podcast that's successful and you're telling
stories and you're helping people and you know, shedding light
on domestic violence, and it's really cool to see to
also have that little full circle moment with you and

(04:19):
also talk about something that's like completely out of my
comfort zone a little bit to talk about like in
front of people, Like I can talk about advocacy and
cold cases and you know, ethics and stuff all day,
but it was a nice challenge to be able to
talk about about something that I don't usually talk about
on my show, Like I don't really talk about breaking cases.
But you know, it's such a complicated situation because you

(04:44):
have a victim who is not well liked, who a
lot of people hate and have a you know, vengeance against.
So how do you kind of balance? And then there's
the other side, the people who are the victims of this,
and I mean it could just keep going well, and.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
Then there's like the people who are attracted to him
almost like yeah, like I saw today in the news
he had a court hearing and all these women flocked
into the courtroom. It's it's kind of crazy, you know,
like how polarizing this that one topic is?

Speaker 4 (05:16):
Right? Okay, what about you, Javier, is there anything that
you worked on this year or maybe that you're looking
forward to next year?

Speaker 3 (05:24):
I have been working on a really cool case for
months now that it is so explosive Because did you
guys watch that documentary The High School Hoax? Yes? With
the mom for spoilerler for the people who haven't watched it,
the mom is the one stalking the daughter.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Okay, I didn't watch it. I know what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (05:44):
There's this one scene where you see the body cam
footage of the cops like telling the daughter that your
mom is your stalker. You know, it was such a
big moment and I'm like, Wow, they really like up
the anties with that one. And I'm working out a
story that has a confession just like that, and it's

(06:04):
super exciting. It was caught on camera the whole thing,
like hours and hours of a confession, and I just
can't wait to tell that story because it's almost like
we're not telling a story in past tense. You're telling
the story as it happens, as it's unfolding, and it's
a big who done it? So I can't wait for

(06:26):
you guys to listen to that one.

Speaker 4 (06:28):
That's fun. I'm definitely interested. So what do you think happened? Like,
do you think the daughter knew? I try not to
judge people's reactions because I just you never know in react. Yeah,
but when I saw that, I was just like, I'm sorry,
but like I said, I try not to do this,
but it's hard not to put yourself in the daughter's shoes,

(06:48):
like her mother literally ruined her life.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
I got to tell you, that stuck with me for
a long time because her reaction. For those of you
who haven't seen it, it's like, imagine you're being tormented
for I don't know how long that happened, right like
a couple of years. Years, and then somebody tells you
what really happened, and it almost it was it was

(07:10):
like it bounced right off of her, like she couldn't
comprehend what the cop was telling her. In fact, the
mom comes out after she learns that her mom was
her tormentor, and she hugs her mom and like she
you could tell that she still loves her mom, like
that reality hadn't sunk in yet, And even in like
the interviews afterwards, you could tell that it's just hard

(07:32):
for her to comprehend that her mom would actually do
that to her.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
Yeah, that was that was tough. I mean, she still
supports her mom so like it's just a really complicated relationship.
But I find the psychology of that really fascinating me too.
I don't think I could. I couldn't be friends with
my mom after that.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
Sean, I mean, we ruined it for you, but you
got to watch them.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
Sorry, you have no no no.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
I had read about it or heard about it. I knew,
I knew what the ending was like, it was spoiled
for me before. But I wish I had more time
to watch more stuff. Right, so every week something tarts
out and I haven't seen any of it. But I
was going to say, did they explain anything about what
motivated her mom to do that? Does the daughter have

(08:16):
a sense that her mom's in a really bad place
mentally and maybe that makes her more empathetic?

Speaker 3 (08:21):
I don't know, Chris, do you remember because they actually
interviewed the mom, which I thought they did.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
I think it kind of went light in that area
like that. That was the weakest part was I wanted
to know more about why, and she just kind of
said which I didn't believe that. She said that someone
else started the harassment and then start because her daughter
started getting these really awful text messages from somebody that

(08:47):
she didn't know, an unknown number, and then the mother
like picked it up and continued it. I don't believe that,
would I do why? And I think she just said
like something like it just started spiraling and then it
just kept going and it kept going, and then she
just couldn't feel like she stopped. She could stop. But
the things that she said were so so incredibly awful,

(09:12):
like just talking about her daughter's body the way that
she did, and oh it was it's a sick it's
pretty gross.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Also, it wasn't just the daughter, it was her boyfriend too.

Speaker 4 (09:22):
Other people too. Yeah, it's just I mean it went deep. Yeah, yeah,
I don't. I don't think she really like gave an explanation.
I think that she just, I don't know, tried to
brush it off a little bit, as like it just
spiraled out of control and she just didn't stop. And
I think she also like kind of liked the attention too.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
I was going to say it made me think like
Munchausen's syndrome by proxy or something like that.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah. I got that feeling too, that it was fun
for her in a yeah, perverse way.

Speaker 4 (09:53):
You know, this is so weird.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
But you know what other documentary speaking of, like found
footage in the true crime world. Oh what was it called?
Oh the Perfect Name Neighbor.

Speaker 4 (10:04):
Oh gosh, I have not seen it, but it is
on my list. We need to watch it because it
looks really good.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
There's no narrator, it's all told through body cam footage,
and it's just talk about like throwing the audience in
the middle of the action. I mean that was yeah,
really cool twist. Yeah. And that's the thing about these
documentaries too, right, you have to wonder how it's made,
what are we seeing, what are we not seeing? I know,

(10:35):
I've been, I've had. I've done two documentaries so far.
The first one was a Citizen PI for the first
season of Criminal Conduct, which is my other podcast, and
that was interesting because they took a case that we
worked on and they gave us a lot of creative
control in terms of they interviewed us thoroughly and I

(10:55):
feel like like they got the story right. And then
the second one was Don't Pick Up the Phone on Netflix.
It was a three.

Speaker 4 (11:02):
That one was interesting.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
Yeah, that was a really good one. And that one
I felt like I gave them a lot of content
and contacts and stuff like that, and then in the
end it was like a little out of my control,
so I felt like I didn't have but you know,
they did a good job telling the story. But it
does make me an easy as a creator, I guess,

(11:24):
call me a control freak, but I always if I
want to be involved in one of these things, I
want to I want to make sure that I'm telling
the story the right way, that's fair, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (11:34):
Well, and just because like people are interviewed in it,
like family members, doesn't necessarily mean that it's being ethically
produced too. I think that a lot of people watch
documentaries and they'll just see, oh, someone's involved with that,
so therefore it must be fine. But that's not always true.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yeah, And a lot of these documentaries don't pay the victims. No,
I don't pay the contributors, you know, which is fine,
I guess, but you know what I mean, Like a
lot of people assume that there's a lot of money
exchanging hands, but not really.

Speaker 4 (12:08):
Now, if they can get something for free, they will,
Like I also work in the entertainment industry, and it's
just like they it'll just be like exposure. We'll give
you exposure and I'll light on your check. Credit, We'll
give you a credit, I'll get your name on IMDb.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
Wow, exactly, it's so crazy. So Christen, what year did
you start murder?

Speaker 4 (12:29):
She told, I started it in December of twenty twenty,
so it's five years.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
I feel like that's when the podcast window kind of
was closing, you know, like where prior to twenty twenty,
everybody can have a podcast and get like a large audience.
But then after the pandemic, it feels like everybody got
a podcast, and it was so hard to stand out. Yeah,
and then Sean, you started, what like two years ago?

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, just about two years ago, October of twenty twenty three,
we started. Yeah, great, and it's I had no idea
how much work it would be. I think that's the
part that's been the most shocking, that if you want
to do it right, you want to do it thorough
job like both of you do, because it's more it's
a lot of research and investigating and double checking and
fact checking and making sure it's accurate. And that's just

(13:19):
to get you to the script and then forget about
the production end.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
But I'm so glad that you tapped into the true
crime community because you know, my day job, I produce
podcasts and YouTube channels or YouTube videos for brands for
like companies. Oh and I always tell them that, like,
you cannot do this alone, right, Like, first of all,
I Noody's going to listen to your audience, to your

(13:43):
show if you don't advertise, if you don't like get
out there. But like another way of growing your audience
is to collaborate kind of like what we're doing right now, rightly,
because we all are in the same space and we
all have our own audiences and this is the way
to grow.

Speaker 4 (13:59):
Yeah, focus on that as much this year, not because
I intentionally didn't, but I wanted to. I just sometimes
there's just only so much you can do, and it
just it's overwhelming. Sometimes.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
I don't think our listeners realize. I think they do
right because like they're my Patreon supporters, Like I feel
like I don't give them enough, but like I feel
like they're therefore me because they understand, Yeah, how how
little we're working with and we're just like me and
like I finally got an editor and somebody to help

(14:34):
produce a little bit. But it's just us. I mean,
it's a very small, lean and mean team, and we're
doing like a like a thesis every week, you know.

Speaker 4 (14:45):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
That's exactly how John explained it. He's like I feel
like we're writing a term paper every week, and I
totally get it. Yeah, it really does feel that way sometimes.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, but I'm glad that we're doing it right because
you know, if imagine the world before podcasting, where we
only got news from so many news outlets, right like now,
stories like your show, Christen, like you know, you can
bring a case that's gotten cold or whatever and bring

(15:15):
it back to life a little bit, where the major
news networks can't devote that much time to a story,
you know, same with you, Sean.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, absolutely, that's usually what we try and do. Something
happens locally and it's reported on the news, like woman,
woman was shot by her boyfriend at this location on
this day in time. Boyfriend was arrested, and that's all
we hear, and then that's that's where my job starts
because I want to know, I want to know more
about that story, and I think people should know more

(15:46):
about that story, because how can you have policies that
prevent domestic violends if you don't understand what's causing it
or things we have in place to try and protect
people that are failing. So that's and then why any
person who dies, they just serve more to be than
just like their race, age, gender, in the newspaper. That's
how I feel about it.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Yeah, I was listening to your most recent episode about
the domestic violence incident that it resulted in a homicide.
In my opinion, I mean a lot of those stories
don't get attention, and like you pointed out, and the
show is that even law enforcement they treat it as, oh,
this is just a domestic dispute until it's not.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
Right.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, right, And nobody, like a three minute news segment
is not going to do that story. Justice is not
going to give the victim the voice that they.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Need, right, Yeah, absolutely, And Nevada is consistently in the
top ten of states for domestic violence homicides. And I
just feel like it's something that I don't want. I
don't necessarily want Las Vegas to be known for that.
But everybody knows Las Vegas for the for the fun,
but there's you know, three million people live in the
county and we have this pervasive problem, and I just

(16:59):
I just want to draw the more more attention to it.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
Kristen, I never asked you where did the name for
your show come from? Like, obviously, like I think of murder,
she wrote, right, But I don't think i've ever asked
you how you landed there.

Speaker 4 (17:14):
Yeah, Well, when I was starting the show, I knew
I wanted to focus on Maine and New England cases.
I'm from Maine. I never see like, as a consumer
of true crime, I never saw cases from New England.
With the exception of like the same ones over and over,
I never saw cases. And I just started thinking, like,
what do I want to do? And I knew I

(17:35):
wanted it to be New England. So I started thinking
of titles, and nothing was really sticking, like I remember
brainstorming words. I wrote some stuff down I like mixed
and matched, and this is before Chap GBT, so nothing
was really like clicking, like it didn't feel right. And
then I remember that murder she wrote takes place in
Cabot Cove, Maine, which is a fictional town in Maine.

(17:58):
And I was like, wait a minute, because I knew
I also wanted to do like kind of eighties, nineties, seventies,
early two thousands cases because I feel like they're the
ones that kind of got buried with time, especially in
this region. And I was like, I feel like I'm
onto something, and then I just thought of the told
wrote something spoken and nobody had taken it and the

(18:21):
domain was available, so I bought it on the spot.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
That's such a cool logo. Yeah, thanks, that's awesome.

Speaker 4 (18:27):
Yeah, but I do yeah, I mean, because it's so
synonymous with murder, she wrote. And sometimes people will recommend
it as murder, she wrote, And I'm like, oh, it's told,
it told like anybody can find murder, she wrote. But
you only find murder, she told, if you're looking for it.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
But that's right.

Speaker 4 (18:44):
Yeah, I wanted to kind of feel I wanted to
feel very like nostalgic and kind of have the branding
be cohesive with that.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
All right, Well, when we come back with Sean, Christen
and I will continue our conversation and this special bonus episode.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Well, we talked about documentaries you watched, what about you know,
stuff to Escape true Crime? What have you been watching
this year?

Speaker 3 (19:23):
I mean it's the holidays.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
I mean is do you have a favorite holiday movie
or tradition?

Speaker 3 (19:27):
But our audience is not going to understand that, right, Like,
our audience is going to be like, why would you
want to escape true crime? They love That's why they
listened to us.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
It's hard when you're in it.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
Yeah, it's like we are marinating in this awful stuff
all the time. So, like, you listen to our one hour,
thirty minute episode or whatever, but we've been living that
for in my case, like months and months sometimes years,
you know, yeah, and like that's the last thing I
want to watch all my firs time.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
And I usually joke that, as I've gotten to know
more true crime podcasters personally, that I always feel like
I'm betraying someone because I'm taking my hour to listen
to Kristen, which means I'm not listening to someone else
that I like doing really good work, and it's hard
to keep up with all the great work that so
many folks are doing.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yeah, we always end up apologizing, right, like, oh, yeah,
listen to your show. I'm like, yeah, nobody podcasters hardly
ever listen to other podcasters work because it's just, you know,
it's like our job.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, we also work. I mean I don't know about
all of you, but a lot of us we work
at home. I mean, I don't have a commute anymore,
so I don't listen to a lot of things that
I used to do when I used to commute.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
But you talked about or you asked about our documentaries
and what are your favorite non true crime documentaries do
you have? Do any of these come to mind? I
could start, if you guys want to think about.

Speaker 4 (20:55):
It, Yeah, go for it, because I the only thing
that's coming to mind is true crime. And I'm like, I.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Was like, and that I was likely. I guess that's
kind of true crime. Did either of you ever see
Capturing the Freedman's Yeah, a family that's affected by accusations
of a father committing sexual abuse. Is that a good
heavy It's really heavy, But it starts out with the documentary.

(21:23):
Filmmaker wanted to make a documentary about clowns, clowns that
perform at child's birthday parties, and connected with this one clown,
and I guess got into his history and he revealed
that these accusations that were made against his dad, and
then so it took a different it went in a

(21:44):
different direction, and the family is one of those we
were really into technology, so kind of like you were saying,
the perfect neighbor. There's a lot of you know, VHS
tape home movies that the family took, they filmed themselves,
you know, years before the documentary, that were incorporated into
the documentary, so it's.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
You're like seeing it. Yeah, yeah, that always makes it
a lot more interesting.

Speaker 4 (22:09):
Yeah, I love that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
Well I was, I was going to say one of them,
but then I changed my mind as you were telling
me your documentary. Have you seen the documentary? Tell me
who I am? I don't even know where you watch.
I think you can watch it on Netflix. So it's
about these brothers. I think I can't remember if they're
twins or not, going it's been a while since I've

(22:32):
watched it. And one of them ends up in a
like a serious motorcycle accident and he loses his memory,
like so he doesn't remember his past, and so he's
relying on his brother to tell him about their childhood,
and he paints this psyche idea like, you know, childhood,
they had like the perfect childhood and he was telling

(22:52):
them all these great things, but in reality, they had
an awful, awful, like very traumatizing childhood, and his brother
was like trying to protect him, you know, so that
he wouldn't have to remember. Yeah, it's really really well done.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
Yeah, I do remember watching that a few years ago,
and it is really good. It's heavy, but it's good.
But I feel like a lot of documentaries are on
the heavier side because they're kind of exposing stuff that
people don't want you to know.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I mean, can you think of
a lighthearted documentary?

Speaker 4 (23:25):
Yes, my octopus teacher.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (23:30):
I loved it. I wasn't expecting it. I wasn't expecting
to love it. And you just fall in love with
this little octopus and they're so smart and so cool,
and then you're sad when they die.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
I know, but it's mostly awesome.

Speaker 4 (23:45):
It's so touching and so beautiful, and that's highly.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
Recommend That's what's amazing about good storytelling, right, Like you
don't need a crime to make an interesting story. In fact,
I was I want to make a like a real
about this because lately I've been listening to some guess what,
I don't listen to true crime podcasts, so I listened
to a lot of weird stuff and I just listened
to a podcast that was so good about people movers,

(24:12):
like moving sidewalks, and I'm thinking, how could you make
an interesting podcast about like those sidewalks that you get
on the airport, you know, like the people mover. It
was fascinating it was ninety nine percent invisible. It was
so good that I was listening to it on the commute.
I couldn't finish it, but I had to get to work,
and so I go up the elevator and I run
to my desk and I finished it. I finished the

(24:33):
episode because you could take a story about something as
mundane as a moving sidewalk and make it interesting.

Speaker 4 (24:40):
I never thought that those would have an interesting story attached.
I do love a good moving sidewalk, though. At the
airport you just kind of feel like you're just power walking.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Through until someone just decides to not stand.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
There in the middle with their suitcase next to them,
so you can't go around.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
Yes, and then you see all the non moving sidewalk
people like Deserving Past Year, I know, very frustrating.

Speaker 4 (25:06):
I like to watch bad reality TV sometimes, like Laura
Norton and I will talk about it, and it's just
a really easy escape from true crime. And if I'm watching, like,
I'll have something on in the background that's just dumb
and easy while I'm like processing, you know, records or
something that I don't really need to pay attention to,

(25:27):
but I can still retain the story, you know, we're
not watching Game of Thrones over here. We're just watching
like people arguing at an airport.

Speaker 3 (25:35):
What do you watch?

Speaker 4 (25:36):
Like?

Speaker 3 (25:36):
What? Out of curiosity?

Speaker 4 (25:39):
I watched Love Is Blind, which was so dumb this year,
it was so dumb. Laura got me into Ninety Day
Fiance the other way, where the Americans go overseas to
be with their lovers, and that's interesting. I think that's
that's kind of it for right now.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
There's just hysterical that Laura Norton watches reality TV show
like I just don't.

Speaker 4 (26:07):
Oh yeah, we talk about it all the time, like
on a daily basis.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
That's so funny.

Speaker 4 (26:12):
How about your Traders? It's so fun. It's so fun Traders.

Speaker 3 (26:18):
Yeah, and I love Survivor too. That's as far as
I go with the reality shows.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah. I do like the reality game shows more than
just the peep inside rich people's lives. I like the
game show competition more.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, for sure. I would would you guys ever be on? Like,
if you could be on a reality show, which one
would it be?

Speaker 4 (26:42):
I kind of want to apply to Traders. They're doing
a civilian one.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
I wished my son was old enough to try, because
I think to try out for it because I think
he would be great on it, but he's only seventeen
on Traders?

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Yeah, why not you Sean?

Speaker 2 (26:55):
Oh my gosh, I would want to do amazing race.
I think, as strenuous and stressful as that would be,
and as much as I love flying, like, I would
want to do that one like I prowled the world
in thirty days under pressure.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
I think I would like to do Survivor, but I
have massive migraines, and so I'm like thinking, nah, I couldn't.
I couldn't do it. But now I think I could
do Traders, although I don't know if I could backstab people.
Could you do it? Would?

Speaker 4 (27:27):
I feel like I would be I would be a
really good trader because I'm pretty unsuspecting. I think I
could do it. I would just have to look at
it as an acting job that like I am acting
as a Trader. But it's it's hard because, like I Kristin,
when I'm in conversation with you, don't want to lie
to you to your face. But yeah, I mean, if

(27:49):
you're a trader, you kind of have to.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
So Yep, it doesn't sound like you guys know Survivor much.
But there's a guy that was Rob, not Boston Rob,
the other Rob. Okay, yeah, yeah, so he lives here
and he lives in Durham and we were talking and
he's in the new season of Traders that's coming out,
and I was trying to get some some details out

(28:11):
of him, but he also signed a yeah sure, yeah,
what were we calling it? H N DA and DA
that's right?

Speaker 4 (28:19):
Yeah, so yeah, they probably have that lockdown.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
But I'm excited, you know, once this is all over,
I want to ask him all about it and get
the the scoop.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
That would be cool.

Speaker 4 (28:30):
Put it on the podcast we do all ye have
him on the show?

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah, I have. When I watch reality shows, I'm looking
at the production, I'm like fascinated, like where are they
hiding the mics and where are they likes and stuff
like that. I just want to ask them stupid questions
like that, like is that roundtable like really in the
castle or is that like a separate set?

Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (28:51):
Yeah, I'm behind the scenes stuff.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
I heard that they don't actually live in the castle,
which I guess wasn't so much of a surprise if
I thought about it for a couple of seconds.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
But it seems less bad if they.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Get busted to like some local you know whatever, Marriott
or something, instead of staying you know, all together there.

Speaker 4 (29:11):
But definitely not as glamorous. Yeah no, not as not
as cool.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
But it isn't Alan commings like the perfect toast for
that show.

Speaker 4 (29:20):
He's so good.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
It was like he was born to do that, right right, Yeah,
it's over the top.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
I love when he rips the picture down and like
throws it or whatever. I just love it. And the outfits, yes, yes,
all the plaid and the bright colors, I love it,
you know, the glass.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:40):
The costume designer must have so much fun with him. Yeah,
that's a really fun Well do you have any questions
about like what stuff behind the scenes is, Like, I
have plenty of experience, not with like reality TV so much.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
So what's your what's your day job? I don't think
we've ever talked about this.

Speaker 4 (29:56):
I have like ten jobs. I'm an actor, so that's
like my profession prior to being a podcaster. So I'm
a professional actor and I do a lot of commercials,
film work, stuff like that, and then I also work
in events, so I staff events, I'll go on site
and manage events. I did a lot more this year,

(30:16):
which was really hard to juggle podcast stuff, but we're
trying to make it work.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, Sean. What's your day job.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
I'm a grant writer, so I do grant writing. I'm
working on a book. I haven't told a lot of
people about that, but yeah, and this is going to
be nonfiction. The proposal is done. I have to go
back to the sample chapters and make some changes, but
that was like my goal by the summer. I want
to pitch it to a couple publishers and if they

(30:50):
love it, that's awesome. And if they don't, I might
go the self publishing route.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
But it's cool.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
It's based on something one of my law school professors
told me, like my first year of law school that
the older I got, the more I saw she was right.
So it's going to be called bitch slut baby.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
Oh I was not expecting that.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
Right this it was two thousand and one, so it
was almost twenty five years ago. But my law school professor,
she told us she's a woman, you know, so she
had kind of, you know, been in this man's world.
Let's say, like as she grew, you know, she was
in her career as her career was growing, and then
now she's teaching us and one of my you know,

(31:33):
colleagues asked a question about sidebars, and she said, you know,
I talk to us about that, like we see it
in TV all the time, like how does it really work?
And for some reason, my professor she was like, you
have to be really careful because when you approached the
bench sometimes judges will take that opportunity to look down

(31:54):
your top. And so she was like, so just be careful,
which I thought was really interesting and I thought was
probably coming from her personal experience. But she said, when
you walk into a classroom, you're a courtroom. Sorry, when
you walk into a courtroom, you're going to be seen
as one of three things. You're going to be seen
as a bitch, a slut, or a baby. Which one
do you want to be choose? And so that was

(32:15):
just like her lesson to us. So she made it
clear that she had chosen bitch, meaning like, you want
to be on your game, you want to be rigid,
you don't want to ever ask for help, and you
don't want to ever flirt or give anyone the chance
to think that you might be flirting. And this was

(32:36):
like her armor that she had put on to like
navigate her career. And I was kind of like, you know,
that's really interesting. I'm like, And then the more I'm like,
I don't know if you get to pick, I don't
know if you get to pick. I think sometimes people
see you a certain way and that's what they latch onto.
And I think you can see it in true crime,
you know, any like witnesses or victims, right, I mean,

(33:00):
and it's you know, who who gets to be the
baby and be protected and who gets called a bitch
or who gets called a slut and is ignored or disrespected.
So that's kind of where what it's going to be.
And you can take that out if you want to
have air. But I just want to know way, I
think that's fascinating.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
This is like the best part of the podcast.

Speaker 4 (33:22):
I haven't heard before that.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yeah, you know, I mean it's kind of like, I mean,
I don't know, I don't want to get to like cerebral.
But you know, you guys have both heard like Madonna whore, right,
Like a woman is going to be seen as like
you do your mother and like righteous or like the
opposite of that, and she kind of gave us three choices,
and then I was kind of like, you know, like
like Monica Lewinsky, I think is probably one of my
good examples, right, I mean, how did we see her?

(33:47):
I don't know how. I think I'm older than both
of you, but you know, I don't you know, how
do we see her in the nineties, And how do
we see her now? And did she choose that to
be labeled that way? Of course she did, and like
that was like thrust upon her. So and you see
that with I don't know, Amanda Knox or like Alli,

(34:07):
Like you can just kind of pick people out and
just kind of say these people were seen were described
as unhinged or untruthful or in the wrong like making
wrong choices like drinking too much or what they're wearing
like a victim blaming. But then also you have people
like of Britney Spears, I guess is a good example.

(34:28):
We see her as a baby in the sense that
she needed protection and that wasn't necessarily a good thing.
It's not always a good thing to be the baby,
because you don't always get protected if your baby that
kind of dynamics that's.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
Really interesting, Like yeah, I mean obviously I'm not a woman,
but it like when you said it, Like, I don't
know about you, Christen, but I was like, wow, that
is a great.

Speaker 4 (34:54):
Yeah, that's a great title.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
That was like, I like, but that's exactly what she
said to us in the classroom, and it was kind
of shocking when she said it, Like.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
So, publishers, if you're.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
Listening, yeah, if you're interested in this one.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
That's right. I want to read it. All right, let's
do that. Well, Chris and Sean, this was fun. This
was so much fun to just like let loose and
just talk shop with you guys. I help my audience
that Pretend listeners go out and check out Sins and
Survivors and Murder, she told, because they're excellent podcasts.

Speaker 4 (35:28):
Yeah, go listen to Pretend. It's really fun. And Javier
asks questions that I am so impressed by because you
just like go, you ask the questions that I'm too
afraid to ask people, and I love it. So go
listen to mind.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
I don't mind getting uncomfortable with people, and so I
love that. Yeah that's awesome. Well, thank you guys so much.
Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, this is fun.

Speaker 4 (35:53):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
I think you don't tell people