February 27, 2023 • 45 mins
Unfortunately, an additional hour of the interview was lost due to a 'glitch' so this became part 1 and we will re-record part 2 dealing with the rest of Tucker's life, business, and future at a later date.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sir Gene (00:01):
Hello, Sir Gene, and joining me today is Tucker Max.
Tucker.
How are you today?
Tucker Max (00:06):
Excellent.
Sir Gene (00:08):
Good.
Uh, Monday morning.
Tucker Max (00:10):
It is every, uh, I have a life where Mondays are
great for me.
Like every day's pretty great.
So.
Sir Gene (00:17):
Well, we definitely wanna get into that.
Uh, but before we get into yourgreat life, uh, in case there's
somebody watching who doesn'tknow a whole lot about you, let
me ask you a little more aboutsort of, uh, how do people
describe you?
And then,
Tucker Max (00:33):
that depends on the person.
Sir Gene (00:35):
yeah, I guess that would, wouldn't it, right?
It depends what, what, how manyyears back we go.
Tucker Max (00:40):
Yep.
Sir Gene (00:40):
so, well, you're, I think you've been for a long
time, uh, an author, right?
You've written a number ofbooks.
Um, but, uh, now in your currentcircumstances, that's, is that
not how you would describeyourself?
Is that like not the main.
Tucker Max (00:58):
Um, probably not.
No, it's, I mean, I don't spendmuch time writing, at least
right now.
Uh, right now my main job, Imean, I just sold my company, so
literally my primary job ishusband and father.
Uh, I have a small ranch inDripping Springs and, uh, you
know, we have like, you know,sheep and cattle and bees and
chickens and like, it's anactual working, probably more of
(01:20):
a homestead, honestly, than aranch, but, So, uh, got that and
then I started a school outhere, a Waldorf style school,
uh, called Living Oaks, which isnow like a hundred kids or so.
And so, like I, I'm on theboard.
Um, I don't really have a job atthis school, I'm just on the
board cuz we help found it.
And so, but that does take a lotof time.
Um, and so those are probably,those are the three things I do
(01:42):
now.
Sir Gene (01:43):
you doing The Little prairie on the house Lifestyle.
Tucker Max (01:45):
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Sir Gene (01:47):
All right, well let's go back, uh, a number of years
here.
Uh, so before you wrote yourfirst book kinda.
Tell us where did you grow up?
What kind of kid were you?
And then, uh, what led you toactually writing your first
book?
Tucker Max (02:04):
Yeah, so I grew up, well, my mom was a flight
attendant for Pan Am.
So for years I was kind of likeall over the place.
Um, we settled in Lexington areain Kentucky.
Um, cuz that's where she's from.
It's Kentucky.
We got there.
I was about eight.
And then I left at 16, went toboarding school, then University
(02:25):
Chicago, then Duke for lawschool.
Um, and then got fired frombeing a lawyer.
Uh, about three weeks in two anda half to be precise.
Uh, then was fired from my dadowns a bunch of restaurants in
South Florida.
You know, my parents wereobviously divorced early, like
every other, every other, uh,gen X.
Um, and, uh, the, my dad firedme from the family business
(02:48):
about six months.
And so.
Sir Gene (02:51):
what was the family business?
Tucker Max (02:53):
Restaurants.
Yeah.
So, um, or, or his side of thefamily.
And so, uh, the other side wereactually cattle ranchers, which
is pretty funny, but now I'm ona ranch with, with two cows.
Um, and so, uh, anyway, so, uh,like.
I, I didn't know what I wasgonna do.
Like, uh, when you know, you getfired from the two things you,
(03:13):
you kind of train for and know,then it's like, well, what now?
And so, uh, I was writing at thetime emails to my friends that,
that they thought were like thefunniest thing ever.
And, um, and so, I, uh, one ofmy buddies is like, look dude,
you know, you're not good atbusiness.
You're not good at law.
But these emails weren't likethe funniest things I've ever
read.
You should, you should do this.
(03:34):
I'm like, what?
Be a writer?
He's like, yeah.
I'm like, no, I'm what?
I'm writers are bitches.
Like I'm not a writer.
And he is like, well, it's the,maybe you are a bitch cuz it's
the thing you're the best at.
And so, um, so I, uh, Iliterally, this is 2001, 2002 I
sent.
Literally e every publisher andevery agent in New York at the
(03:59):
time, there were a lot, like,there aren't many now, cuz that
business kind of collapsed.
But there used to be a lot.
And I probably sent at least500, maybe closer to a thousand
inquiries.
And, um, when I say I got zerointerest, I mean literal zero,
like, you know, 90 plus percentdidn't respond.
And then, uh, uh, the responseswere all form rejections except
(04:21):
there were like three or.
Personalized rejections.
Like, this is the worst thingI've ever read.
You should never write an emailagain.
You know, like, like, why wouldyou send this to me?
Like, what?
Just, but in the meantime, myfriends had started forwarding
my emails to their friends andthey had gotten, remember email
chains?
Like your old enough gene toremember?
Like, yeah, right.
(04:41):
Email forwards used to be a bigthing, like before social media,
like, uh, and so my emails werelike huge emails back then.
Like, uh, and, and
Sir Gene (04:51):
Now, where were you reliving at this time?
Tucker Max (04:53):
This, I was in Chicago at this time, and so,
um, uh, I could literally do wascrazy.
I, I would get emails, my emailsforwarded to me from like
friends and other social groupswho'd be like, oh, you should
read this.
This is so funny.
You know, I'm like, scroll downto, you know, look at the
headers, remember all theheaders would be set off and
stuff, and I'm like, I wrotethat and they're like, oh, well
(05:16):
that makes sense.
It sounded like you.
And so, um, so I knew my stuffwas really funny.
Like in the old days if youwere, if your stuff got
forwarded around, it was good.
It's sort of like, you know,going viral now.
It's the original going viralfor the internet.
And so, um, uh, it was funny.
I got completely rejected frompublishing, but I'm like,
They're wrong.
like all these people whoseentire job it is, is to find
(05:37):
new, great books are all wrongand, uh, which is both
ridiculously irrational.
But it turns out I was rightbecause the emails I sent to
them, uh, like the, the writingI sent to them.
Ended up becoming a book called,I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell,
which spent five calendar yearson the New York Times Best Out
List was number one for, youknow, months and months and
(05:59):
months sold.
I don't know, at this point itsold like 2 million, 3 million
copies.
Um, and it's like, like itliterally, the New York Times
said it invented a new literarygenre called Frat Tire.
And so, That's kind of how I, Ioriginally made my name and then
there was a movie made about mylife and about the book, um,
(06:19):
that came out in oh nine.
Uh, and like that's kind of howI came about.
Like most people know me
Sir Gene (06:27):
Yeah.
So what year did the book getpublished?
Finally?
Tucker Max (06:31):
in oh six was, yeah, it finally came because like
what ended up happening?
I put all my, my emails on mywebsite for free, right?
All my, my writing, and this is,you know, like, again, oh two,
this is back like when you hadto use like geo cities, right?
Like when, when, or, or you hadto learn to program html.
Like there was no WordPress orWicks or Squarespace or any of
(06:53):
that.
Like, this is before MySpaceexisted.
And so like, I, I, I remember.
I'm like, all right, I'll justput it up for free.
And this is back, like when theonly people on the internet were
like weirdos in their parents'basements.
You know, like it was superweird to be on the internet, you
know, there like seriously,there were like, there's like,
whatever it is, four or 5billion people on the internet.
Now this is back when there were30 million.
(07:15):
You know, like 40 million.
Like, it was like, it was peopleat colleges or people at
corporations, right?
Uh, or, or the weirdo hackers.
Like that was it.
And, um, and so my, my stuff gotput on this site called college
humor.com, which is stillaround.
and, and it was a huge sight atthe time and it was like, it was
like the place you went to findfunny stuff and, um, it blew up
(07:38):
man.
And then kind of from there,like it, it was, uh, you know,
this is back when you could goviral with just writing, you
know, like before videos.
It's funny cuz people like, whatif you started now?
Like, what would you write?
I'm like, I wouldn't be writing,I'd be Jake Paul or something.
Like, I'd be doing videos ortoss or whatever the hell.
And so, um, anyway, so I, uh, Itblew up.
(08:00):
And then the publishers cameback to me and they're like, oh,
we wanna do your book.
And I'm like, y'all assholes.
That turned me down right now.
You now you're, you're blowingup my phones.
Um, and then it took a while.
Get a deal, finish the book.
You know, like, I, like I oh 4 05 like, or oh four, I think I,
they came back, it blew up.
They came back and then itwasn't really until oh six it
comes out because you know thepublishing cycle's forever.
(08:22):
Right.
Sir Gene (08:23):
So who, who is, uh, the publisher who ended up doing
Tucker Max (08:25):
It was a company called Kens.
They, uh, they're well knownfor.
They're like the second biggestromance novel publisher after,
after Harlequin, which everyoneknows, right?
And so, um, but they had a smalldivision run by this guy named
Jeremy Ruby Strauss, who's likepretty well known in publishing
now cuz he, he's, he's startedlike three totally new.
(08:48):
Genres.
Like he was the first guy to dowrestler books, which blew up
and sold tens, millions ofcopies.
He was, he did Fra Tire, likethere was meeting about three or
four other people that, that,like, he kind of discovered.
And then there's one more, likehe, I think he was the first one
to actually do YouTube starbooks, like back, you know,
early YouTube days, like 2012and stuff.
And so like, um, he's reallywell known in the business.
(09:11):
Uh, but like, he was not thatwell-known then.
And, uh, found me early, lovedme.
Um, and then kind of like, uh,ended up, I ended up going there
because of him.
And so, and he was a greateditor, man.
I really like him
Sir Gene (09:27):
Nice.
And then what were you doing forwork during this period of time
between when you, you got therejections and you got the
acceptance
Tucker Max (09:36):
Not a lot, man.
Uh, like, uh, um, I, I was realpoor.
That was back, you know, like,like, dude, it's, if you ever
think people need a lot of moneyto live, just hang out with like
most 24 year old dudes, right?
Like, I think I was living on 10grand a year or something, and
happy.
(09:56):
Um, but I was, I was definitelyat the level where like, Like,
uh, I couldn't afford protein,you know?
And so like, like, you know,there I'd have girls in my life
that I was really into.
And then I have girls in my lifethat bought me food right?
Like, I was definitely at thatlevel, uh, or excuse me, of, of,
of finances and, you know, doingnonsense.
(10:18):
And this is back before like itwas really easy to make a
living.
Sir Gene (10:23):
Mm-hmm.
Tucker Max (10:24):
like, what was I doing?
Like I, I think I hosted, youknow, like speed dating used to
be a thing, and I would hostthose and I'd get paid like 150
bucks a night or something to dothat three nights a week.
And I'm like, oh, I'm rich.
You know, like, like that wasbasically what I did.
Like it was, uh, Or, I don'tknow.
I don't even, it's actually,it's hard for me to get Brian.
(10:44):
I never had any money.
There was like a two, three yearperiod where I had nothing and
I'm not sure how I even wasn'thomeless like really, man.
It was, uh, it was like, likethe oddest of odd jobs and like,
uh, Uh, you know, friends payingfor beer or dollar beer nights
(11:04):
in Chicago, like that used to bea big thing.
Um, and you know, or girlspaying for stuff or whatever,
you know, I eventually got tiredof being poor, but I was real
poor.
I was couldn't afford proteinpoor for a while.
Yeah.
Sir Gene (11:18):
And when you got tired of being poorer, uh, I assumed
that it wasn't just simply moneycoming from the book sales
because those paid very little.
Tucker Max (11:30):
Yeah.
Um, what was I doing?
Well, so I sold a TV show beforemy book came out, and so that
was like 50 grand, which waslike, I can live off that for a
decade, you know, Um, and, and,uh, and then what else have I
done?
Um, There were a couple otherthing, man, like it, I can't
(11:51):
even remember.
Um, I, like, I was, I did, I hada girlfriend who worked for kind
of, for a while, and so like,she would make money and then
like, uh, and I would live offof that.
Like I definitely lived offwomen.
Dude.
Like, I, I, I don't mean itshame fully or shame Leslie,
just as a fact, a matter oftruth.
(12:13):
It's just kind of what happened.
What else?
Uh, every now and then I'd writesomething and get paid for it,
you know, like, uh, you know,like, uh, that's big, uh, you
know, like magazines orwhatever, but not mut man.
Like I really truly lived on 10,20, 30 grand a year.
And then, um, Then he sold acouple shows in Hollywood,
which, you know, not huge money,but 5,000 grand.
(12:36):
Um, and then I, you know, thatwould li be good for a long
time.
Um, then book royalty startedreally in about oh seven,
started coming in, uh, cuz the,the book came out in oh six,
early oh six.
And then it like really took offin oh seven and then it was
like, Oh, wow.
I've got a$200,000 check Like,I'm rich.
(12:56):
Like I'm rich, rich.
You know, like, um, and thenalso I started, by then I, I,
like, I had a big website and soI was able to put ads on it.
You know, this is like the earlydays of blog ads and affiliate
stuff and, you know, I'd makelike whatever, 1200 bucks a
month.
But like, that was enough forme, you know?
And so, I mean, my.
Sir Gene (13:15):
Now, uh, do you remember what the royalty
payment on that first book was?
This A percentage?
Because if you were making a fewhundred, they were making
millions?
Tucker Max (13:26):
Yeah, right.
Uh, no, absolutely.
So, um, royalty payments in theindustry are standardized, so
it's 15% hard cover, seven and ahalf paper, 25% digital and
audio.
Like, that's basically how itworks.
There are a few fringeexceptions in certain ways, like
it, ed, I hope this is beer inhell.
I got them.
I, I don't, I still don't knowhow I did this.
(13:47):
I got them to give me 10.
After a while because what I didwas, um, I did like an updated
revised version and then I did acouple of other things.
And so I got them to bump up mysplit from seven and a half to
10.
Right.
Which still, I'm getting fuckingenough screwed on, man.
Like, it's not like I'm like,oh, I got them.
(14:09):
But like, um, cuz because mybook never went into hard cover,
it started as paperback.
Right.
And so like, I mean, really 50%of what I should be making, I
didn't get, you know, becauselike, like a book that's sold,
like that would just stay inhard cover.
But mine was always paperback,so it's like, you know, it's
(14:30):
1299 or
Sir Gene (14:31):
they had a multi-year New York Times bestselling book
in paperback the whole time,
Tucker Max (14:35):
The whole time.
Yep.
Sir Gene (14:36):
and they never really released in the hard cover or
anything.
Tucker Max (14:39):
They did, they did a special release of 30,000 hard
covers and get this, they gaveme a 20% royalty on that because
I signed all 30,000,
Sir Gene (14:50):
take?
Jesus
Tucker Max (14:51):
bro.
It was, I actually, I'm notkidding.
I had to have a chiropractor, ana r t chiropractor that I went
to like every other day for amonth.
Like when I was doing this,dude, I signed a thousand.
You know, it was like the littlethings that you put in the
books.
So I didn't have to, actually,not the physical books.
I signed the little plates,they're called stickers,
(15:12):
basically.
Um, I signed a thousand a dayfor a month.
On average, I think there weresome days signed, 2000 other
days, like, bro, by the end itwas crazy.
Like, uh, I had to have theseweird setups so I could like,
uh, it was, I,
Sir Gene (15:29):
So you don't recommend that to
Tucker Max (15:30):
I don't even know why I agreed to it for money.
Then I'm like, fuck that.
Like, I, like at the end I'mlike, I'd rather would've just
paid to not have to do this
Sir Gene (15:39):
and then you never, during that, uh, period in time,
you never went back to doinganything law related.
Why is that?
Tucker Max (15:46):
Now because, uh, Oh God.
Um, well, first I got firedfrom, from the legal profession
in a very public way.
Like I wrote an email to myfriends about what happened
before I got fired.
And, uh, after I got fired, theythought it was hilarious and
forwarded it to all theirfriends, and then, like everyone
knew, so like, legalprofession's, pretty small.
(16:07):
And so like, it was, uh, I kindof screwed myself, but more
importantly, I didn't wanna be aslave man.
Like, you know, a slave withgolden handcuffs is still a
slave and lawyers might get paida lot and all this, but it's
like, it sucks, man.
You, you, you are doing theworst, most horrible shit.
(16:27):
Uh, I mean, I guess you're notworking in a cobalt mine, but
like, it, it is theintellectual, uh, and white
collar version of working in.
And I'm just not gonna do that.
I'm not gonna sell my life for150 grand a year or 250 grand a
year or whatever.
It's not gonna do it.
Like I don't care.
No.
Sir Gene (16:46):
And, uh, why did you end up going for a degree in law
had you not realized that's whatit was, or you just wanted
something to do or.
Tucker Max (16:54):
I was stupid.
Come on Jean.
Like we're talking about a 21and 22 2 year old kid making
decisions about his future.
What the fuck did I know?
I didn't know my ass from a holein the ground, man.
Like, and I, I picked law schoolbecause, You know, I went to the
University of Chicago, which isa top 10 undergrad.
Like my decision, like it forme, it was like Harvard,
(17:16):
Princeton, uh, uh, Chicago orStanford, right?
And I ended up going to Chicago.
And so like if you come fromthat world, the world of the
elites, right, is what peoplelike to call it now, which is
nonsense if you know that world,but whatever.
Um, The, the, there's four main,three main pathways you can go
into investment banking.
Right.
(17:36):
Which a bunch of my friends, youknow, went to Wall Street,
worked for JP Morgan, or, orBear Stearns or whatever.
I interviewed with the banks,but thankfully I had upper class
friends who had graduated andwent to iBanking and they're
like, they, they, they were likezombies, man.
They're like, don't do it.
Don't do it.
We work 120 hours a week.
It's the worst.
(17:57):
And the ones who loved it,Strung out on Coke and like, you
know, like their lives werebanking and then coke, and then
hookers, and then banking, andthen coke, and then
spreadsheets, Coke and hookers.
And I'm like, I don't want anyof those three things in my
life.
Like, there's literally not oneof those three things.
And so I'm like, all right, I'mnot doing that.
And then there were themanagement consultants, right?
(18:19):
You know, I, I interviewed withMcKenzie and uh, and all those,
uh, Anderson back when theyexisted and.
All the people I knew fromChicago who became management
consultants were the most, theywere, they were the most
pretentious, annoying nitwits.
And then it's like going tointerview with those companies.
(18:40):
I'm like, Oh fuck.
You're just the pretentious,annoying twits who fucking grew
up and have power like you want.
You wanna know who was like apartner at McKenzie, Pete, uh
uh, uh, Butti Checker, whateverthe hell his stupid name is.
Right?
That dude.
That dude is the iconicmanagement consultant.
Like, you wanna go hang out withthat guy?
Have fun.
(19:01):
like seriously, like no, there'sno chance.
Or MIT Romney, right?
Like that type right.
Like if you, if you forget it'snot about right or left.
Like they annoying twits are onboth sides.
And so, uh, I was like, no, I'mnot doing that.
And then, uh, uh, so the otheroption is law school.
And to be a lawyer, like youknow, of the white collar, high
(19:22):
status, easy professions andlike, you know, the world was
different then and I w didn'thave any real adults around me.
My parents sucked.
They didn't care.
Even though my dad ran abusiness he didn't like was
never really.
Like he, he didn't consider, hedidn't think of himself as an
entrepreneur.
He didn't talk.
He didn't, I mean, I didn'tspend much time with him either.
(19:44):
Like my dad didn't care aboutme.
And so like, that was neverreally not a way I thought.
Right.
And so I, like, I was g reallygood at school.
You know, it's so funny, so manyentrepreneurs are entrepreneurs
cuz they were terrible atschool.
And I like, I know so many ofthem now and I'm like, and
they're all fascinated by thefact I have these high, you
know, advanced degrees.
(20:05):
And I went to the best school,bro.
I got an academic scholarship toa top 10 law school and I'm a
white dude and they're all like,a lot of them like really have a
reverence, uh, and a respect forme because of that.
And I'm like, That system isbullshit.
like it literally is just a, Ilearned how to game the system
(20:25):
and you didn't, you thought youdid badly at school and thought
that meant you were stupid, andso you're insecure about it and
respect people who did good atit.
I'm here to tell you the truth.
It's just a game and you didn'tunderstand the game.
And so you thought you took thatas a judgment of you.
I did understand the game.
(20:46):
I'm no smart.
I'm like, you know me.
I'm no smarter than you.
I'm no better than you.
Like your company's a a billiondollar company.
Mine did 25 million revenue, sodon't tell me I'm smarter than
you.
Like, that's stupid.
Like that's nonsense, right?
Like it, it is just, you didn'trealize it was a game.
You thought it was a measure ofyou when it's.
And I realized very early andnot, I'm not gonna pretend like
(21:08):
it was a conscious thing, I justkind of figured it out.
That, that the game of school isregurgitating back to the, the,
the, the authority, what theythink the answer is.
That's it.
It's figuring out their mind andthen repeating their mind back
to them.
Right?
And so like, which is, as soonas I explained this,
(21:29):
entrepreneurs like theyliterally, their face will drop
and.
Oh God, you're right.
I never thought about that.
And like I can tell you there,I've had certain dudes, good
friends of mine, or guys youprobably know who literally
like, have had massive emotionalrevelations because of like,
like I'll explain this to themand it starts'em down the path
and like, oh, all theseinsecurities I can let go of.
(21:50):
Like this is all nonsense.
Like, yeah, you can.
Um, uh, and I have no, it.
If you look at my bio now, Idon't list any of my schools or
like, it's such bullshit, right?
It really is.
And I, and I'm not saying thatfrom the outside.
I'm saying it from the.
But when you come up in thatsystem, you don't really know
(22:11):
any better.
And I was really good at it.
And so it was like doinganything outside of that system
would've been a risk.
And at 25, I was an arrogantnitwit who didn't, but didn't
wanna take any risks.
I was like the, the definitionof, of that sort of dude.
And so, um, uh, like I just, I,I was not, uh, I was not, um, I
(22:36):
wanted, I, you know what Iwanted, man?
I wanted money and power andprestige without having to work
for it, and
Sir Gene (22:45):
Now, isn't there one other pee you're missing there?
Tucker Max (22:48):
Pussy.
I had that already.
I had, I had that already.
So, well, I, maybe more, you'reright.
I wanted more.
Yes.
I you, because you can always,there's, uh, at that point in my
life, I thought you could alwaysget more.
Now I know better, but, um, uh,and, and so if you're in the
elite schools, the, the easypath to that is iBanking
management, consulting, orlawyer.
Now, what I didn't realize atthe time is that, I didn't
(23:12):
realize that every bit ofresponsibility that you abdicate
will be taken up by a tyrant andused to control you.
And those paths are absolutelycomplete abdication
responsibility.
And you, you, you're owned, youare an owned motherfucker.
And I'm gonna tell you, anybanker, you know, any management
(23:33):
consultant, you know, any, anybig firm lawyer, not necessarily
a defense attorney, that's alittle different.
But any big firm lawyer,they're.
whether they know it or not,they're owned.
And I realized that, um, I kindalearned it the hard way, um,
because I tried to be my own manin a law firm and I got fired in
(23:53):
two and a half weeks right?
Um, in a way, I don't blamethem.
Like, I'm not like, oh, they'reevil.
No man.
They're just, they have theirsystem and it goes a certain
way.
And if you don't wanna buy intothe system, that's cool, but you
gotta get the fuck out.
Same with management consulting.
Same with.
Um, uh, and so I got thrown outof that system.
And then same with my ownfucking family, my own father,
(24:16):
right?
Like, uh, he built his businessas a, you know, a lot of
entrepreneurs, they build theirbusinesses as shrines to their
egos.
And, and my dad did.
And I went in thinking, now thisis like, let's build this
business.
Let's scale it.
Let's do this.
Let's, let's make it.
I went in thinking it was abusiness, not realizing that was
not the primary purpose.
(24:36):
And, uh, and.
He ejected me.
And so it was like I had tolearn.
I'm one of those dudes that, um,I learn, but I usually learn the
hard way.
like I usually don't learn theeasy way.
It's been one of the things I'vebeen focusing on the last couple
years is like, how do I learnthe easy way?
Like with guns, I'm like, okay,let me find an expert that I
(24:57):
really trust and then justlisten to him right?
And not, not have to learn allof this myself, but like find
someone good, not, not whatever.
And so, but at that point in mylife, I was an.
So that, to answer yourquestion, I picked law school
cause I wanted money, power,respect, status, women, the easy
way, and I thought it would getit for me.
(25:18):
That was not a consciousdecision, but that was what I
was really doing.
Sir Gene (25:22):
Got it.
Okay.
Well that makes sense.
So that covers that kind ofchunk of your early life.
Um, and then in 2006, 2007, thebook is just going gangbusters.
Tucker Max (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it really ramps up an oh 8,0 9, 0 8.
Sir Gene (25:38):
and what, when that happens, how does your life.
Tucker Max (25:42):
So, bro, it's crazy, man.
When you become even a littlebit famous as a guy, everything
changes.
Like women don't get thisbecause even mediocre women,
Usually go through phases wherethey're like the prettiest girl
at the bar, right?
But really attractive womenspend their whole lives in, in
(26:04):
this realm where like everybodywants you.
And everything revolves aroundyou.
And so women understand that,and that's the reality for at
least a lot of women, not allwomen.
There are some women whounfortunately are very
unattractive and they just, theydon't, they're more like men in
terms of how they experiencereality.
But uh, anyone who's like, let'ssay a six or above.
(26:27):
It understands what it means,means to have everything they've
experienced.
What it means, everythingrevolve around them.
Men don't, and I like, I havesome, I have a couple friends
who are like, just like utterlygorgeous.
Like women come to them a lotand even those dudes still have
to like talk to the girl, right?
(26:48):
They still have to like, like besomething besides an erect
penis.
Right?
Um, uh, uh, But when you becomefamous as a guy, it, everything
changes.
And in a way that is literallyunfathomable, man, because like
I had pretty good game, man.
(27:08):
I got a lot of girls, I waswhatever.
But I had game, I had to workfor women, right?
And I was good at it and I got alot.
But it's like if I didn't go tothe bar or I didn't go meet
women, somehow they weren'tshowing up at my.
once you become famous, theyshow up at your door like, it's
(27:29):
fucking insane, man.
Like the, the, the metaphor Ialways give is imagine, imagine
you, you, you're like a dude outin the wilderness by yourself,
and you gotta learn how to fendfor yourself and how to like,
you know, uh, get food and all.
And you can get really good atthat.
And you can live off the land.
You can kind of have, like,honestly, you can have an
(27:49):
abundant life.
but if you don't get up everyday and go get food, you're
gonna starve and die.
Sir Gene (27:55):
Yeah.
Tucker Max (27:56):
Well, now imagine going from that to living in a
buffet where the food just showsup and there's more than you
could ever imagine and you can'teat at all.
That's what being famous as aguy is like in terms of
relationship with women.
Right?
And so like, It was like beinglike a wolf in the wild to a
wolf at a petting zoo.
I, dude, I hooked up with, Ican't tell you, I had a coup
(28:20):
multi-year period where it waslike, hold on, these girls are
emailing me and they want tojust come over and have sex with
me and then leave.
And that's it.
And then maybe have sex againsome more.
But like, we don't have to doanything else.
I'm like, this is amazing.
Like what?
This is incredible.
And so I took advantage, man.
(28:41):
I really did.
Like, I absolutelyunequivocally, unabashedly.
Uh, and it's funny too, man,like I didn't, I don't, I don't
wanna say I didn't care whatthey looked like, but.
Fives and ups come on over.
Like, like now, if you're afive, you can't, like, the most
I'm gonna do is open the door.
Like, don't make this hard onme.
(29:02):
If you're a nine, maybe we canmeet at a bar.
But like, uh, uh, I was, Ididn't care.
Like, I was like, let's goRight?
And, um, but then like, man,after a while it's like, It
starts to wear on you, man.
It's like it's not fun.
Aside from being tedious andrepetitive and all that, I mean
(29:24):
on some levels, sorry, sex doesnot get repetitive.
What got repetitive and tediouswas like the realization that
none of these women weresleeping with me.
They were having sex with animage of me.
They were having sex with TuckerMax, right?
They were, I thought I wasgetting the best end of.
What I realized was it wasdefinitely exchange and they
(29:46):
were taking a lot and, and I'mnot talking shit about any of
them like it like, but like theywere taking just as much as they
were giving.
And at first I didn't understandthat, but then over time I
started to realize, oh, Oh shit,I'm paying for this in a, in a
soul way.
In a, like, these women areusing me as much as I'm using
(30:09):
them.
And I didn't understand that andI didn't, uh, I didn't know
there was a cost to it at first.
It's sort of like eating fastfood, you know?
It's like, oh, this tastesgreat.
What could be the problem be?
Well, there's a price to pay.
It might take a while for it toshow up.
And so it did for me.
And, and, but like, it's not,I'm not like a, oh, they were
crazy and tried to stab me, or,nah, man, they.
(30:30):
I was pretty good at avoidingthe crazies.
Most of the girls I slept withwere, you know, on the scale of
it, you know, nice people.
So like I, you know, I had somecrazies here and there, but
nothing that big.
Like the, the worst crazies Ihad, the worst stalkers I had
were dudes.
Um, but like, that's a wholeseparate conversation.
And so like, uh, eventually Irealized, man, this is, this is
(30:54):
taking a toll on my soul thatis, I don't want it to do.
and, um, and bro, like, you knowwhat it is, women know what it's
like to be objectified becausemost women are objectified their
whole life.
And, and not good or bad, it'sjust a fact, right?
Dudes usually aren'tobjectified.
Uh, I was, and I know what it'slike, and on one hand it is kind
(31:17):
of cool, but on the other hand,it's very soul sucking and
shallow and, and, um, unfun.
And so, uh, I went through thephase, I went through a couple
different phases, but eventuallyit started therapy.
Like really kind of starteddealing with my issues, you
know, all that kind of stuff.
And that took a while.
And then I got to a kind of apretty healthy place and started
(31:39):
like looking for a girlfriend.
Um, like I, you know, like, anddated a few girls who were, you
know, great girls, but.
It's like I kind of had to learnhow to date, you know, learn how
to pick women, learn how todate, cuz I was really good at
sleeping with women and pickingwomen for that and interacting
with women in, in sort of aplayboy ethereal way.
I was very skilled at that.
(32:01):
I was not very good atinteracting with women in a
relationship way and I kind hadto learn all that.
And then I had to start withkinda like starter type
girlfriends and then just kindof move up and then eventually
met my wife, the woman who isnow my wife.
Uh, um, And uh, and then it waslike I knew pretty quickly with
her, like, all right, like I wasready.
(32:21):
And she was like, I was like,yeah, this is, this is the right
woman for me.
And now we have four kids.
Sir Gene (32:30):
yeah, you had a, a whole bundle in there, uh, but
before all that happened, so I,I wanna kinda learn about how
you went from having this bookthat took a long time to put
together and actually get outthere, but once it did, it just
went gangbusters.
So now, Do you realize that, oh,well I can make more, write more
(32:53):
books, this will be easy.
Or is the pressure on and you'relike, oh shit, is this a one
time deal?
How do I, how do I repeat this?
Well, how do I period of time gofor you before your second book?
Tucker Max (33:06):
I, I think I made a mistake in certain ways.
I w I wrote my first book andthen I focused on Hollywood
instead of writing books two andthree.
And so if you like books two andthree still hit number one, the
best outta the list, they'restill, you know, whatever, blah,
blah, blah.
But if you read my books inorder, 1, 2, 3.
You're gonna see two things Igot.
I was a much better writer inBooks Two and three, but Books
(33:27):
two and three lost an EssentialEnergy that Book one had.
It's almost like a desperation.
You know, when I wrote Book one,I had burned the bridges behind
me and it was like it was fightor.
It was winter die.
Sir Gene (33:44):
Mm-hmm.
Tucker Max (33:45):
By the time I got to books two and three, I was like
a, like a Roman emperor I wasbathing and pussy and gold and
like, it was the, the stories,it's better writing and they're
better constructed and the jokesare technically funnier, but I
am missing the manic must haveenergy like it's not there.
And you can, and you can feel itwhen you read it.
(34:08):
It's weird, man.
It's a very weird thing and Ican see it pretty clearly.
Two and three.
I was, it wasn't an act, it wasjust, I was in a different phase
in my life and I kind of wishI'd written two and three from
the energy of Book one, which Icould've, I could've just kept
going.
I didn't, uh, because Hollywoodcame calling very quickly and,
um, and when you're, I likeanyone who intentionally goes
(34:31):
out to be famous, which I did.
Um, that narcissism is aboutfilling a hole in.
And so I had, I was, you know,Hollywood's a way bigger fire
hose than books.
And so having a TV show or moviewould, you know, whatever.
And so I kind of ignored bookwriting for a while and focused
on Hollywood.
(34:53):
And, um, it worked.
I got, I sold two TV shows andgot a movie made.
You know, like lots of people goto Hollywood, very few get
anything made, and I.
and it was horrible.
Every aspect of, bro, I got toHollywood thinking I was a
soulless narcissist, and then Imet actual soulless narcissist,
and I was like, holy fuck, likebro,
Sir Gene (35:17):
You got a long way to go.
Tucker Max (35:18):
bro, they weren't just a little different
Sir Gene (35:21):
Mm-hmm.
Tucker Max (35:21):
It's like, it's like, it's like think, it's like
playing neighborhood footballand thinking you're a badass and
then getting to the nfl I'mlike, oh, hold on.
Except, except with horribledepravity and soullessness.
instead of athletic skill.
Oh man.
Dude, I don't think I'd everactually met a truly evil
(35:42):
sociopath until I got toHollywood.
I, I probably did, but like, Broand I, it's not like I didn't
even see all the pedophiles,right?
Like I didn't go to Nickelodeon.
Like I was only in like, I wasonly dealing with the rapists,
you know, like at Weinstein,nutty.
Like I was only seeing that sideand not just, that's the funny
thing about the whole HarveyWeinstein thing.
(36:02):
He's a horrible, horriblecriminal rapist.
There's no doubt everyone inHollywood knew.
Sir Gene (36:08):
Mm-hmm.
Tucker Max (36:09):
Everyone had a Weinstein story about how he did
something to them or to a friendthat they knew directly, right?
So like it's like that, buthere's what no one talks about,
man, is that like, let me put itthis way.
So once the tide shifted on him,and I'm glad it did, like I
don't know what the number was,20, 30, 40 women came out and
(36:32):
said he assaulted them, which isawesome.
That's courageous for them.
I'm glad that that.
Think of the thousands of womenthat Weinstein dealt with in
Hollywood and the hundreds thathe made stars who haven't said
anything that should tell youeverything you need to know
about the type of person inHollywood.
(36:54):
And they're not, not sayinganything cuz they're afraid.
That's not that that ship hassailed
Sir Gene (37:00):
yeah.
And then,
Tucker Max (37:00):
great, but like there's a reason.
Sir Gene (37:03):
you think anything's changed though in Hollywood or
did just one guy get named andnothing really in the system
changed?
Tucker Max (37:10):
no, of course not, bro.
The system is built on beingevil like it Come on, man.
Like the whole system is builton that.
That's what it is.
That's the history of it, isexploitation, uh, of talent and
artists.
And a lot of things.
That's what it is, man.
It's built on that.
(37:30):
And I'm not saying no, everyonethere is awful.
Like there's a few people whoare like genuinely pretty good
people who somehow exist in thatcesspool of sociopathic evil.
I don't know how, but they do.
But they're the rare exceptionman.
Like, um, I forget the screen.
(37:51):
He's pretty well known.
He did some big movies when,when the Weinstein thing broke,
he's done a bunch of movies for,for Mere Maxim Weinstein, and he
wrote this Facebook post, whichI think is deleted now.
I should have saved it.
It was so good, man.
Like he's obviously, he's afamous screenwriter.
He was a good writer and hebasically wrote this whole thing
about how I think the, he calledit.
We all knew.
(38:11):
And, um, like, he just likedetailed, like, you know, I was
there, I knew this.
I, I didn't see Weinsteinactually rape a woman, but I
knew, I knew.
And he is like, and don't sayyou didn't know, you knew too,
just like I did.
And he went, it's like, youknow, like, like look around
man.
Like Matt Damon had been Aflacor walk around like nothing
happened brother.
Those motherfuckers.
(38:33):
They knew for a fact.
I don't, I doubt theyparticipated.
I'm not calling them rapists,but they absolutely
unequivocally knew and there'slike not just a couple of
accounts of it.
Like they knew.
They knew.
There's lots of women who arelike, I told Matt Damon like a
lot, dozens, well, Ben Affleckknew this, so.
Sir Gene (38:54):
Yep.
Tucker Max (38:55):
When there's no consequences for being a party
to horrific sociopathy, why doyou think it would go?
Like, what's gonna cause it togo away?
It
Sir Gene (39:04):
Yeah.
So it just goes moreunderground.
Tucker Max (39:07):
or it just shifts to different people and they use
different
Sir Gene (39:09):
Yeah.
Or I don't know if you saw, uh,I guess Jim Carey is suing
somebody for the, uh, leakingthe list of flights to Epstein's
Island.
Tucker Max (39:21):
Why is he on it?
Sir Gene (39:23):
Yeah.
Tucker Max (39:24):
Well, I
Sir Gene (39:25):
And I, I don't have a whole lot more for than that.
I'm, maybe this will datepoorly, but uh, when stuff like
that comes out, I mean, I'm, I'mnot really surprised.
It's just kind of like, clearlypeople wanted to keep that list
from ever seeing the light ofday.
Tucker Max (39:42):
I mean, my understanding is there are
definitely some people on thefringes with Epstein who are not
involved with the horriblestuff.
That's possible.
Sure.
Right.
Like, fuck, I'll get, I hung outone night.
You know, Jared from Subway, theguy who was like the, had all
the
Sir Gene (39:59):
Yeah.
The guy who lost weight.
Tucker Max (40:00):
Right.
I was at a basket, like abasketball thing in Indiana
once, and hung out with him onenight for a few hours.
So it's like, like I, of course,I didn't know this is long
before any of that happened,right?
He's in jail now as he.
It is possible to intersect withhorrific people and not be
involved in their stuff.
Right.
Um, so is it possible someonewrote on one of Epstein and he
(40:22):
gave a lot of money to a lot ofinstitutions and he ingratiated
himself with a lot of people.
Yeah, sure.
But that's the way these peoplework, is let, let, let's get
everyone just dirty enough thatthey're not gonna call me out
because they don't wanna.
Sir Gene (40:36):
Mm-hmm.
Tucker Max (40:37):
So I who know, I'm not saying Jim Carey did or
didn't do.
I don't know.
I've never met Jim.
I don't know anything about Jim.
Um, you know, but like, yeah,dude, like the, the, I don't
know.
I know a lot of people from thatworld a lot, and I don't know
many of them.
In fact, I can name maybe twowho I would let around my.
(41:00):
And I don't mean like I'd letwatch my kids, like not one of
them would I ever let watch mykid, but I can think of less
than five that I would let in myhouse when my kids were there
Sir Gene (41:13):
Wow.
Tucker Max (41:14):
So, and, and I just, I don't necessarily mean that
they were deadly kids, right?
I don't know.
Who knows?
But it's just like that there'sno compromise between food and.
You know, like if I hand you aglass of wine, I'm like, Jean,
it's just a tiniest bit of poopin there.
You can't really even see it.
Okay, well I'm, are you drinkingit or not?
I'm not like if you got intothat system, because at some
(41:39):
point you're gonna see what itis and then you decided to stay.
That's all I needed to know,mayor, like I decided to leave.
And on my own long, I had toleave.
I got a fucking movie.
Once you get a movie made, onceyou start down the path, you can
inver.
I mean, the movie didn't dothat.
Well, I'm not trying to act likeI was, uh, you know, everyone
(42:00):
was clamoring to work with me.
But it would've been easy tokeep going.
Easy.
No, I couldn't.
It was like I decided I wantedto keep my soul.
Instead of sell it and it, itis, the metaphor is sell your
soul is a great metaphor, man,cuz it really, you, you do have
to at some point look yourselfin the mirror and decide, all
right, I, at, at minimum, I amgoing to turn away from evil
(42:24):
that I know is happening so Ican get a benefit from this
system.
That's the minimum thing.
Even if you don't participate,I, I am going to willingly turn
a blind eye to shit I know isgoing.
Sir Gene (42:38):
Yeah.
You gotta compromise withyourself.
Tucker Max (42:40):
Yep.
Sir Gene (42:42):
So
Tucker Max (42:42):
a sociopath though.
I guess
Sir Gene (42:44):
then, then you're lucky.
You
Tucker Max (42:45):
Right then it's like, what?
Yeah.
Then you don't care.
But
Sir Gene (42:49):
Uh, so that's who's drawn to
Tucker Max (42:51):
yeah, that those are the
Sir Gene (42:52):
but I gotta ask on the, uh, the whole Me too thing,
because when that started goingbig, it wasn't just famous
people that were starting to,uh, all of a sudden pop up in
the radar.
Um, did you ever have anyworries about any of the, the
girls that you've had fun withover the years deciding to see
things in a different light?
Tucker Max (43:12):
no.
Not at all.
No, I, I truly didn't like I wasthe ultimate opt-in.
Right.
You know, like, uh, like, youknow, if you're Harvey
Weinstein, he's a fat,disgusting job by the hot
looking dude, right?
Like his best case scenario.
(43:33):
Broken, narcissistic women willsleep with him to get rolls or
something like that.
Sir Gene (43:38):
And at this point, We have a glitch.
unfortunately the second half ofthis interview, a little more
than a half in fact, Is lost.
but no fear.
I will, hopefully be able toreconnect with Tucker.
And re-ask the questions that Iasked them in the second half,
(44:00):
which is really leading up toafter his books.
How he got to where he currentlyis his company, the book
publishing and how he sold that.
Some other fun topics that wecovered.
Shooting and self-reliance.
But unfortunately, So hopefullyyou enjoyed this part of it.
(44:21):
And I will let you guys knowwhen we will reschedule and get
part two.
Hello, Sir Gene, and joining me today is Tucker Max.
Tucker.
How are you today?
Tucker Max (00:06):
Excellent.
Sir Gene (00:08):
Good.
Uh, Monday morning.
Tucker Max (00:10):
It is every, uh, I have a life where Mondays are
great for me.
Like every day's pretty great.
So.
Sir Gene (00:17):
Well, we definitely wanna get into that.
Uh, but before we get into yourgreat life, uh, in case there's
somebody watching who doesn'tknow a whole lot about you, let
me ask you a little more aboutsort of, uh, how do people
describe you?
And then,
Tucker Max (00:33):
that depends on the person.
Sir Gene (00:35):
yeah, I guess that would, wouldn't it, right?
It depends what, what, how manyyears back we go.
Tucker Max (00:40):
Yep.
Sir Gene (00:40):
so, well, you're, I think you've been for a long
time, uh, an author, right?
You've written a number ofbooks.
Um, but, uh, now in your currentcircumstances, that's, is that
not how you would describeyourself?
Is that like not the main.
Tucker Max (00:58):
Um, probably not.
No, it's, I mean, I don't spendmuch time writing, at least
right now.
Uh, right now my main job, Imean, I just sold my company, so
literally my primary job ishusband and father.
Uh, I have a small ranch inDripping Springs and, uh, you
know, we have like, you know,sheep and cattle and bees and
chickens and like, it's anactual working, probably more of
(01:20):
a homestead, honestly, than aranch, but, So, uh, got that and
then I started a school outhere, a Waldorf style school,
uh, called Living Oaks, which isnow like a hundred kids or so.
And so, like I, I'm on theboard.
Um, I don't really have a job atthis school, I'm just on the
board cuz we help found it.
And so, but that does take a lotof time.
Um, and so those are probably,those are the three things I do
(01:42):
now.
Sir Gene (01:43):
you doing The Little prairie on the house Lifestyle.
Tucker Max (01:45):
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Sir Gene (01:47):
All right, well let's go back, uh, a number of years
here.
Uh, so before you wrote yourfirst book kinda.
Tell us where did you grow up?
What kind of kid were you?
And then, uh, what led you toactually writing your first
book?
Tucker Max (02:04):
Yeah, so I grew up, well, my mom was a flight
attendant for Pan Am.
So for years I was kind of likeall over the place.
Um, we settled in Lexington areain Kentucky.
Um, cuz that's where she's from.
It's Kentucky.
We got there.
I was about eight.
And then I left at 16, went toboarding school, then University
(02:25):
Chicago, then Duke for lawschool.
Um, and then got fired frombeing a lawyer.
Uh, about three weeks in two anda half to be precise.
Uh, then was fired from my dadowns a bunch of restaurants in
South Florida.
You know, my parents wereobviously divorced early, like
every other, every other, uh,gen X.
Um, and, uh, the, my dad firedme from the family business
(02:48):
about six months.
And so.
Sir Gene (02:51):
what was the family business?
Tucker Max (02:53):
Restaurants.
Yeah.
So, um, or, or his side of thefamily.
And so, uh, the other side wereactually cattle ranchers, which
is pretty funny, but now I'm ona ranch with, with two cows.
Um, and so, uh, anyway, so, uh,like.
I, I didn't know what I wasgonna do.
Like, uh, when you know, you getfired from the two things you,
(03:13):
you kind of train for and know,then it's like, well, what now?
And so, uh, I was writing at thetime emails to my friends that,
that they thought were like thefunniest thing ever.
And, um, and so, I, uh, one ofmy buddies is like, look dude,
you know, you're not good atbusiness.
You're not good at law.
But these emails weren't likethe funniest things I've ever
read.
You should, you should do this.
(03:34):
I'm like, what?
Be a writer?
He's like, yeah.
I'm like, no, I'm what?
I'm writers are bitches.
Like I'm not a writer.
And he is like, well, it's the,maybe you are a bitch cuz it's
the thing you're the best at.
And so, um, so I, uh, Iliterally, this is 2001, 2002 I
sent.
Literally e every publisher andevery agent in New York at the
(03:59):
time, there were a lot, like,there aren't many now, cuz that
business kind of collapsed.
But there used to be a lot.
And I probably sent at least500, maybe closer to a thousand
inquiries.
And, um, when I say I got zerointerest, I mean literal zero,
like, you know, 90 plus percentdidn't respond.
And then, uh, uh, the responseswere all form rejections except
(04:21):
there were like three or.
Personalized rejections.
Like, this is the worst thingI've ever read.
You should never write an emailagain.
You know, like, like, why wouldyou send this to me?
Like, what?
Just, but in the meantime, myfriends had started forwarding
my emails to their friends andthey had gotten, remember email
chains?
Like your old enough gene toremember?
Like, yeah, right.
(04:41):
Email forwards used to be a bigthing, like before social media,
like, uh, and so my emails werelike huge emails back then.
Like, uh, and, and
Sir Gene (04:51):
Now, where were you reliving at this time?
Tucker Max (04:53):
This, I was in Chicago at this time, and so,
um, uh, I could literally do wascrazy.
I, I would get emails, my emailsforwarded to me from like
friends and other social groupswho'd be like, oh, you should
read this.
This is so funny.
You know, I'm like, scroll downto, you know, look at the
headers, remember all theheaders would be set off and
stuff, and I'm like, I wrotethat and they're like, oh, well
(05:16):
that makes sense.
It sounded like you.
And so, um, so I knew my stuffwas really funny.
Like in the old days if youwere, if your stuff got
forwarded around, it was good.
It's sort of like, you know,going viral now.
It's the original going viralfor the internet.
And so, um, uh, it was funny.
I got completely rejected frompublishing, but I'm like,
They're wrong.
like all these people whoseentire job it is, is to find
(05:37):
new, great books are all wrongand, uh, which is both
ridiculously irrational.
But it turns out I was rightbecause the emails I sent to
them, uh, like the, the writingI sent to them.
Ended up becoming a book called,I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell,
which spent five calendar yearson the New York Times Best Out
List was number one for, youknow, months and months and
(05:59):
months sold.
I don't know, at this point itsold like 2 million, 3 million
copies.
Um, and it's like, like itliterally, the New York Times
said it invented a new literarygenre called Frat Tire.
And so, That's kind of how I, Ioriginally made my name and then
there was a movie made about mylife and about the book, um,
(06:19):
that came out in oh nine.
Uh, and like that's kind of howI came about.
Like most people know me
Sir Gene (06:27):
Yeah.
So what year did the book getpublished?
Finally?
Tucker Max (06:31):
in oh six was, yeah, it finally came because like
what ended up happening?
I put all my, my emails on mywebsite for free, right?
All my, my writing, and this is,you know, like, again, oh two,
this is back like when you hadto use like geo cities, right?
Like when, when, or, or you hadto learn to program html.
Like there was no WordPress orWicks or Squarespace or any of
(06:53):
that.
Like, this is before MySpaceexisted.
And so like, I, I, I remember.
I'm like, all right, I'll justput it up for free.
And this is back, like when theonly people on the internet were
like weirdos in their parents'basements.
You know, like it was superweird to be on the internet, you
know, there like seriously,there were like, there's like,
whatever it is, four or 5billion people on the internet.
Now this is back when there were30 million.
(07:15):
You know, like 40 million.
Like, it was like, it was peopleat colleges or people at
corporations, right?
Uh, or, or the weirdo hackers.
Like that was it.
And, um, and so my, my stuff gotput on this site called college
humor.com, which is stillaround.
and, and it was a huge sight atthe time and it was like, it was
like the place you went to findfunny stuff and, um, it blew up
(07:38):
man.
And then kind of from there,like it, it was, uh, you know,
this is back when you could goviral with just writing, you
know, like before videos.
It's funny cuz people like, whatif you started now?
Like, what would you write?
I'm like, I wouldn't be writing,I'd be Jake Paul or something.
Like, I'd be doing videos ortoss or whatever the hell.
And so, um, anyway, so I, uh, Itblew up.
(08:00):
And then the publishers cameback to me and they're like, oh,
we wanna do your book.
And I'm like, y'all assholes.
That turned me down right now.
You now you're, you're blowingup my phones.
Um, and then it took a while.
Get a deal, finish the book.
You know, like, I, like I oh 4 05 like, or oh four, I think I,
they came back, it blew up.
They came back and then itwasn't really until oh six it
comes out because you know thepublishing cycle's forever.
(08:22):
Right.
Sir Gene (08:23):
So who, who is, uh, the publisher who ended up doing
Tucker Max (08:25):
It was a company called Kens.
They, uh, they're well knownfor.
They're like the second biggestromance novel publisher after,
after Harlequin, which everyoneknows, right?
And so, um, but they had a smalldivision run by this guy named
Jeremy Ruby Strauss, who's likepretty well known in publishing
now cuz he, he's, he's startedlike three totally new.
(08:48):
Genres.
Like he was the first guy to dowrestler books, which blew up
and sold tens, millions ofcopies.
He was, he did Fra Tire, likethere was meeting about three or
four other people that, that,like, he kind of discovered.
And then there's one more, likehe, I think he was the first one
to actually do YouTube starbooks, like back, you know,
early YouTube days, like 2012and stuff.
And so like, um, he's reallywell known in the business.
(09:11):
Uh, but like, he was not thatwell-known then.
And, uh, found me early, lovedme.
Um, and then kind of like, uh,ended up, I ended up going there
because of him.
And so, and he was a greateditor, man.
I really like him
Sir Gene (09:27):
Nice.
And then what were you doing forwork during this period of time
between when you, you got therejections and you got the
acceptance
Tucker Max (09:36):
Not a lot, man.
Uh, like, uh, um, I, I was realpoor.
That was back, you know, like,like, dude, it's, if you ever
think people need a lot of moneyto live, just hang out with like
most 24 year old dudes, right?
Like, I think I was living on 10grand a year or something, and
happy.
(09:56):
Um, but I was, I was definitelyat the level where like, Like,
uh, I couldn't afford protein,you know?
And so like, like, you know,there I'd have girls in my life
that I was really into.
And then I have girls in my lifethat bought me food right?
Like, I was definitely at thatlevel, uh, or excuse me, of, of,
of finances and, you know, doingnonsense.
(10:18):
And this is back before like itwas really easy to make a
living.
Sir Gene (10:23):
Mm-hmm.
Tucker Max (10:24):
like, what was I doing?
Like I, I think I hosted, youknow, like speed dating used to
be a thing, and I would hostthose and I'd get paid like 150
bucks a night or something to dothat three nights a week.
And I'm like, oh, I'm rich.
You know, like, like that wasbasically what I did.
Like it was, uh, Or, I don'tknow.
I don't even, it's actually,it's hard for me to get Brian.
(10:44):
I never had any money.
There was like a two, three yearperiod where I had nothing and
I'm not sure how I even wasn'thomeless like really, man.
It was, uh, it was like, likethe oddest of odd jobs and like,
uh, Uh, you know, friends payingfor beer or dollar beer nights
(11:04):
in Chicago, like that used to bea big thing.
Um, and you know, or girlspaying for stuff or whatever,
you know, I eventually got tiredof being poor, but I was real
poor.
I was couldn't afford proteinpoor for a while.
Yeah.
Sir Gene (11:18):
And when you got tired of being poorer, uh, I assumed
that it wasn't just simply moneycoming from the book sales
because those paid very little.
Tucker Max (11:30):
Yeah.
Um, what was I doing?
Well, so I sold a TV show beforemy book came out, and so that
was like 50 grand, which waslike, I can live off that for a
decade, you know, Um, and, and,uh, and then what else have I
done?
Um, There were a couple otherthing, man, like it, I can't
(11:51):
even remember.
Um, I, like, I was, I did, I hada girlfriend who worked for kind
of, for a while, and so like,she would make money and then
like, uh, and I would live offof that.
Like I definitely lived offwomen.
Dude.
Like, I, I, I don't mean itshame fully or shame Leslie,
just as a fact, a matter oftruth.
(12:13):
It's just kind of what happened.
What else?
Uh, every now and then I'd writesomething and get paid for it,
you know, like, uh, you know,like, uh, that's big, uh, you
know, like magazines orwhatever, but not mut man.
Like I really truly lived on 10,20, 30 grand a year.
And then, um, Then he sold acouple shows in Hollywood,
which, you know, not huge money,but 5,000 grand.
(12:36):
Um, and then I, you know, thatwould li be good for a long
time.
Um, then book royalty startedreally in about oh seven,
started coming in, uh, cuz the,the book came out in oh six,
early oh six.
And then it like really took offin oh seven and then it was
like, Oh, wow.
I've got a$200,000 check Like,I'm rich.
(12:56):
Like I'm rich, rich.
You know, like, um, and thenalso I started, by then I, I,
like, I had a big website and soI was able to put ads on it.
You know, this is like the earlydays of blog ads and affiliate
stuff and, you know, I'd makelike whatever, 1200 bucks a
month.
But like, that was enough forme, you know?
And so, I mean, my.
Sir Gene (13:15):
Now, uh, do you remember what the royalty
payment on that first book was?
This A percentage?
Because if you were making a fewhundred, they were making
millions?
Tucker Max (13:26):
Yeah, right.
Uh, no, absolutely.
So, um, royalty payments in theindustry are standardized, so
it's 15% hard cover, seven and ahalf paper, 25% digital and
audio.
Like, that's basically how itworks.
There are a few fringeexceptions in certain ways, like
it, ed, I hope this is beer inhell.
I got them.
I, I don't, I still don't knowhow I did this.
(13:47):
I got them to give me 10.
After a while because what I didwas, um, I did like an updated
revised version and then I did acouple of other things.
And so I got them to bump up mysplit from seven and a half to
10.
Right.
Which still, I'm getting fuckingenough screwed on, man.
Like, it's not like I'm like,oh, I got them.
(14:09):
But like, um, cuz because mybook never went into hard cover,
it started as paperback.
Right.
And so like, I mean, really 50%of what I should be making, I
didn't get, you know, becauselike, like a book that's sold,
like that would just stay inhard cover.
But mine was always paperback,so it's like, you know, it's
(14:30):
1299 or
Sir Gene (14:31):
they had a multi-year New York Times bestselling book
in paperback the whole time,
Tucker Max (14:35):
The whole time.
Yep.
Sir Gene (14:36):
and they never really released in the hard cover or
anything.
Tucker Max (14:39):
They did, they did a special release of 30,000 hard
covers and get this, they gaveme a 20% royalty on that because
I signed all 30,000,
Sir Gene (14:50):
take?
Jesus
Tucker Max (14:51):
bro.
It was, I actually, I'm notkidding.
I had to have a chiropractor, ana r t chiropractor that I went
to like every other day for amonth.
Like when I was doing this,dude, I signed a thousand.
You know, it was like the littlethings that you put in the
books.
So I didn't have to, actually,not the physical books.
I signed the little plates,they're called stickers,
(15:12):
basically.
Um, I signed a thousand a dayfor a month.
On average, I think there weresome days signed, 2000 other
days, like, bro, by the end itwas crazy.
Like, uh, I had to have theseweird setups so I could like,
uh, it was, I,
Sir Gene (15:29):
So you don't recommend that to
Tucker Max (15:30):
I don't even know why I agreed to it for money.
Then I'm like, fuck that.
Like, I, like at the end I'mlike, I'd rather would've just
paid to not have to do this
Sir Gene (15:39):
and then you never, during that, uh, period in time,
you never went back to doinganything law related.
Why is that?
Tucker Max (15:46):
Now because, uh, Oh God.
Um, well, first I got firedfrom, from the legal profession
in a very public way.
Like I wrote an email to myfriends about what happened
before I got fired.
And, uh, after I got fired, theythought it was hilarious and
forwarded it to all theirfriends, and then, like everyone
knew, so like, legalprofession's, pretty small.
(16:07):
And so like, it was, uh, I kindof screwed myself, but more
importantly, I didn't wanna be aslave man.
Like, you know, a slave withgolden handcuffs is still a
slave and lawyers might get paida lot and all this, but it's
like, it sucks, man.
You, you, you are doing theworst, most horrible shit.
(16:27):
Uh, I mean, I guess you're notworking in a cobalt mine, but
like, it, it is theintellectual, uh, and white
collar version of working in.
And I'm just not gonna do that.
I'm not gonna sell my life for150 grand a year or 250 grand a
year or whatever.
It's not gonna do it.
Like I don't care.
No.
Sir Gene (16:46):
And, uh, why did you end up going for a degree in law
had you not realized that's whatit was, or you just wanted
something to do or.
Tucker Max (16:54):
I was stupid.
Come on Jean.
Like we're talking about a 21and 22 2 year old kid making
decisions about his future.
What the fuck did I know?
I didn't know my ass from a holein the ground, man.
Like, and I, I picked law schoolbecause, You know, I went to the
University of Chicago, which isa top 10 undergrad.
Like my decision, like it forme, it was like Harvard,
(17:16):
Princeton, uh, uh, Chicago orStanford, right?
And I ended up going to Chicago.
And so like if you come fromthat world, the world of the
elites, right, is what peoplelike to call it now, which is
nonsense if you know that world,but whatever.
Um, The, the, there's four main,three main pathways you can go
into investment banking.
Right.
(17:36):
Which a bunch of my friends, youknow, went to Wall Street,
worked for JP Morgan, or, orBear Stearns or whatever.
I interviewed with the banks,but thankfully I had upper class
friends who had graduated andwent to iBanking and they're
like, they, they, they were likezombies, man.
They're like, don't do it.
Don't do it.
We work 120 hours a week.
It's the worst.
(17:57):
And the ones who loved it,Strung out on Coke and like, you
know, like their lives werebanking and then coke, and then
hookers, and then banking, andthen coke, and then
spreadsheets, Coke and hookers.
And I'm like, I don't want anyof those three things in my
life.
Like, there's literally not oneof those three things.
And so I'm like, all right, I'mnot doing that.
And then there were themanagement consultants, right?
(18:19):
You know, I, I interviewed withMcKenzie and uh, and all those,
uh, Anderson back when theyexisted and.
All the people I knew fromChicago who became management
consultants were the most, theywere, they were the most
pretentious, annoying nitwits.
And then it's like going tointerview with those companies.
(18:40):
I'm like, Oh fuck.
You're just the pretentious,annoying twits who fucking grew
up and have power like you want.
You wanna know who was like apartner at McKenzie, Pete, uh
uh, uh, Butti Checker, whateverthe hell his stupid name is.
Right?
That dude.
That dude is the iconicmanagement consultant.
Like, you wanna go hang out withthat guy?
Have fun.
(19:01):
like seriously, like no, there'sno chance.
Or MIT Romney, right?
Like that type right.
Like if you, if you forget it'snot about right or left.
Like they annoying twits are onboth sides.
And so, uh, I was like, no, I'mnot doing that.
And then, uh, uh, so the otheroption is law school.
And to be a lawyer, like youknow, of the white collar, high
(19:22):
status, easy professions andlike, you know, the world was
different then and I w didn'thave any real adults around me.
My parents sucked.
They didn't care.
Even though my dad ran abusiness he didn't like was
never really.
Like he, he didn't consider, hedidn't think of himself as an
entrepreneur.
He didn't talk.
He didn't, I mean, I didn'tspend much time with him either.
(19:44):
Like my dad didn't care aboutme.
And so like, that was neverreally not a way I thought.
Right.
And so I, like, I was g reallygood at school.
You know, it's so funny, so manyentrepreneurs are entrepreneurs
cuz they were terrible atschool.
And I like, I know so many ofthem now and I'm like, and
they're all fascinated by thefact I have these high, you
know, advanced degrees.
(20:05):
And I went to the best school,bro.
I got an academic scholarship toa top 10 law school and I'm a
white dude and they're all like,a lot of them like really have a
reverence, uh, and a respect forme because of that.
And I'm like, That system isbullshit.
like it literally is just a, Ilearned how to game the system
(20:25):
and you didn't, you thought youdid badly at school and thought
that meant you were stupid, andso you're insecure about it and
respect people who did good atit.
I'm here to tell you the truth.
It's just a game and you didn'tunderstand the game.
And so you thought you took thatas a judgment of you.
I did understand the game.
(20:46):
I'm no smart.
I'm like, you know me.
I'm no smarter than you.
I'm no better than you.
Like your company's a a billiondollar company.
Mine did 25 million revenue, sodon't tell me I'm smarter than
you.
Like, that's stupid.
Like that's nonsense, right?
Like it, it is just, you didn'trealize it was a game.
You thought it was a measure ofyou when it's.
And I realized very early andnot, I'm not gonna pretend like
(21:08):
it was a conscious thing, I justkind of figured it out.
That, that the game of school isregurgitating back to the, the,
the, the authority, what theythink the answer is.
That's it.
It's figuring out their mind andthen repeating their mind back
to them.
Right?
And so like, which is, as soonas I explained this,
(21:29):
entrepreneurs like theyliterally, their face will drop
and.
Oh God, you're right.
I never thought about that.
And like I can tell you there,I've had certain dudes, good
friends of mine, or guys youprobably know who literally
like, have had massive emotionalrevelations because of like,
like I'll explain this to themand it starts'em down the path
and like, oh, all theseinsecurities I can let go of.
(21:50):
Like this is all nonsense.
Like, yeah, you can.
Um, uh, and I have no, it.
If you look at my bio now, Idon't list any of my schools or
like, it's such bullshit, right?
It really is.
And I, and I'm not saying thatfrom the outside.
I'm saying it from the.
But when you come up in thatsystem, you don't really know
(22:11):
any better.
And I was really good at it.
And so it was like doinganything outside of that system
would've been a risk.
And at 25, I was an arrogantnitwit who didn't, but didn't
wanna take any risks.
I was like the, the definitionof, of that sort of dude.
And so, um, uh, like I just, I,I was not, uh, I was not, um, I
(22:36):
wanted, I, you know what Iwanted, man?
I wanted money and power andprestige without having to work
for it, and
Sir Gene (22:45):
Now, isn't there one other pee you're missing there?
Tucker Max (22:48):
Pussy.
I had that already.
I had, I had that already.
So, well, I, maybe more, you'reright.
I wanted more.
Yes.
I you, because you can always,there's, uh, at that point in my
life, I thought you could alwaysget more.
Now I know better, but, um, uh,and, and so if you're in the
elite schools, the, the easypath to that is iBanking
management, consulting, orlawyer.
Now, what I didn't realize atthe time is that, I didn't
(23:12):
realize that every bit ofresponsibility that you abdicate
will be taken up by a tyrant andused to control you.
And those paths are absolutelycomplete abdication
responsibility.
And you, you, you're owned, youare an owned motherfucker.
And I'm gonna tell you, anybanker, you know, any management
(23:33):
consultant, you know, any, anybig firm lawyer, not necessarily
a defense attorney, that's alittle different.
But any big firm lawyer,they're.
whether they know it or not,they're owned.
And I realized that, um, I kindalearned it the hard way, um,
because I tried to be my own manin a law firm and I got fired in
(23:53):
two and a half weeks right?
Um, in a way, I don't blamethem.
Like, I'm not like, oh, they'reevil.
No man.
They're just, they have theirsystem and it goes a certain
way.
And if you don't wanna buy intothe system, that's cool, but you
gotta get the fuck out.
Same with management consulting.
Same with.
Um, uh, and so I got thrown outof that system.
And then same with my ownfucking family, my own father,
(24:16):
right?
Like, uh, he built his businessas a, you know, a lot of
entrepreneurs, they build theirbusinesses as shrines to their
egos.
And, and my dad did.
And I went in thinking, now thisis like, let's build this
business.
Let's scale it.
Let's do this.
Let's, let's make it.
I went in thinking it was abusiness, not realizing that was
not the primary purpose.
(24:36):
And, uh, and.
He ejected me.
And so it was like I had tolearn.
I'm one of those dudes that, um,I learn, but I usually learn the
hard way.
like I usually don't learn theeasy way.
It's been one of the things I'vebeen focusing on the last couple
years is like, how do I learnthe easy way?
Like with guns, I'm like, okay,let me find an expert that I
(24:57):
really trust and then justlisten to him right?
And not, not have to learn allof this myself, but like find
someone good, not, not whatever.
And so, but at that point in mylife, I was an.
So that, to answer yourquestion, I picked law school
cause I wanted money, power,respect, status, women, the easy
way, and I thought it would getit for me.
(25:18):
That was not a consciousdecision, but that was what I
was really doing.
Sir Gene (25:22):
Got it.
Okay.
Well that makes sense.
So that covers that kind ofchunk of your early life.
Um, and then in 2006, 2007, thebook is just going gangbusters.
Tucker Max (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it really ramps up an oh 8,0 9, 0 8.
Sir Gene (25:38):
and what, when that happens, how does your life.
Tucker Max (25:42):
So, bro, it's crazy, man.
When you become even a littlebit famous as a guy, everything
changes.
Like women don't get thisbecause even mediocre women,
Usually go through phases wherethey're like the prettiest girl
at the bar, right?
But really attractive womenspend their whole lives in, in
(26:04):
this realm where like everybodywants you.
And everything revolves aroundyou.
And so women understand that,and that's the reality for at
least a lot of women, not allwomen.
There are some women whounfortunately are very
unattractive and they just, theydon't, they're more like men in
terms of how they experiencereality.
But uh, anyone who's like, let'ssay a six or above.
(26:27):
It understands what it means,means to have everything they've
experienced.
What it means, everythingrevolve around them.
Men don't, and I like, I havesome, I have a couple friends
who are like, just like utterlygorgeous.
Like women come to them a lotand even those dudes still have
to like talk to the girl, right?
(26:48):
They still have to like, like besomething besides an erect
penis.
Right?
Um, uh, uh, But when you becomefamous as a guy, it, everything
changes.
And in a way that is literallyunfathomable, man, because like
I had pretty good game, man.
(27:08):
I got a lot of girls, I waswhatever.
But I had game, I had to workfor women, right?
And I was good at it and I got alot.
But it's like if I didn't go tothe bar or I didn't go meet
women, somehow they weren'tshowing up at my.
once you become famous, theyshow up at your door like, it's
(27:29):
fucking insane, man.
Like the, the, the metaphor Ialways give is imagine, imagine
you, you, you're like a dude outin the wilderness by yourself,
and you gotta learn how to fendfor yourself and how to like,
you know, uh, get food and all.
And you can get really good atthat.
And you can live off the land.
You can kind of have, like,honestly, you can have an
(27:49):
abundant life.
but if you don't get up everyday and go get food, you're
gonna starve and die.
Sir Gene (27:55):
Yeah.
Tucker Max (27:56):
Well, now imagine going from that to living in a
buffet where the food just showsup and there's more than you
could ever imagine and you can'teat at all.
That's what being famous as aguy is like in terms of
relationship with women.
Right?
And so like, It was like beinglike a wolf in the wild to a
wolf at a petting zoo.
I, dude, I hooked up with, Ican't tell you, I had a coup
(28:20):
multi-year period where it waslike, hold on, these girls are
emailing me and they want tojust come over and have sex with
me and then leave.
And that's it.
And then maybe have sex againsome more.
But like, we don't have to doanything else.
I'm like, this is amazing.
Like what?
This is incredible.
And so I took advantage, man.
(28:41):
I really did.
Like, I absolutelyunequivocally, unabashedly.
Uh, and it's funny too, man,like I didn't, I don't, I don't
wanna say I didn't care whatthey looked like, but.
Fives and ups come on over.
Like, like now, if you're afive, you can't, like, the most
I'm gonna do is open the door.
Like, don't make this hard onme.
(29:02):
If you're a nine, maybe we canmeet at a bar.
But like, uh, uh, I was, Ididn't care.
Like, I was like, let's goRight?
And, um, but then like, man,after a while it's like, It
starts to wear on you, man.
It's like it's not fun.
Aside from being tedious andrepetitive and all that, I mean
(29:24):
on some levels, sorry, sex doesnot get repetitive.
What got repetitive and tediouswas like the realization that
none of these women weresleeping with me.
They were having sex with animage of me.
They were having sex with TuckerMax, right?
They were, I thought I wasgetting the best end of.
What I realized was it wasdefinitely exchange and they
(29:46):
were taking a lot and, and I'mnot talking shit about any of
them like it like, but like theywere taking just as much as they
were giving.
And at first I didn't understandthat, but then over time I
started to realize, oh, Oh shit,I'm paying for this in a, in a
soul way.
In a, like, these women areusing me as much as I'm using
(30:09):
them.
And I didn't understand that andI didn't, uh, I didn't know
there was a cost to it at first.
It's sort of like eating fastfood, you know?
It's like, oh, this tastesgreat.
What could be the problem be?
Well, there's a price to pay.
It might take a while for it toshow up.
And so it did for me.
And, and, but like, it's not,I'm not like a, oh, they were
crazy and tried to stab me, or,nah, man, they.
(30:30):
I was pretty good at avoidingthe crazies.
Most of the girls I slept withwere, you know, on the scale of
it, you know, nice people.
So like I, you know, I had somecrazies here and there, but
nothing that big.
Like the, the worst crazies Ihad, the worst stalkers I had
were dudes.
Um, but like, that's a wholeseparate conversation.
And so like, uh, eventually Irealized, man, this is, this is
(30:54):
taking a toll on my soul thatis, I don't want it to do.
and, um, and bro, like, you knowwhat it is, women know what it's
like to be objectified becausemost women are objectified their
whole life.
And, and not good or bad, it'sjust a fact, right?
Dudes usually aren'tobjectified.
Uh, I was, and I know what it'slike, and on one hand it is kind
(31:17):
of cool, but on the other hand,it's very soul sucking and
shallow and, and, um, unfun.
And so, uh, I went through thephase, I went through a couple
different phases, but eventuallyit started therapy.
Like really kind of starteddealing with my issues, you
know, all that kind of stuff.
And that took a while.
And then I got to a kind of apretty healthy place and started
(31:39):
like looking for a girlfriend.
Um, like I, you know, like, anddated a few girls who were, you
know, great girls, but.
It's like I kind of had to learnhow to date, you know, learn how
to pick women, learn how todate, cuz I was really good at
sleeping with women and pickingwomen for that and interacting
with women in, in sort of aplayboy ethereal way.
I was very skilled at that.
(32:01):
I was not very good atinteracting with women in a
relationship way and I kind hadto learn all that.
And then I had to start withkinda like starter type
girlfriends and then just kindof move up and then eventually
met my wife, the woman who isnow my wife.
Uh, um, And uh, and then it waslike I knew pretty quickly with
her, like, all right, like I wasready.
(32:21):
And she was like, I was like,yeah, this is, this is the right
woman for me.
And now we have four kids.
Sir Gene (32:30):
yeah, you had a, a whole bundle in there, uh, but
before all that happened, so I,I wanna kinda learn about how
you went from having this bookthat took a long time to put
together and actually get outthere, but once it did, it just
went gangbusters.
So now, Do you realize that, oh,well I can make more, write more
(32:53):
books, this will be easy.
Or is the pressure on and you'relike, oh shit, is this a one
time deal?
How do I, how do I repeat this?
Well, how do I period of time gofor you before your second book?
Tucker Max (33:06):
I, I think I made a mistake in certain ways.
I w I wrote my first book andthen I focused on Hollywood
instead of writing books two andthree.
And so if you like books two andthree still hit number one, the
best outta the list, they'restill, you know, whatever, blah,
blah, blah.
But if you read my books inorder, 1, 2, 3.
You're gonna see two things Igot.
I was a much better writer inBooks Two and three, but Books
(33:27):
two and three lost an EssentialEnergy that Book one had.
It's almost like a desperation.
You know, when I wrote Book one,I had burned the bridges behind
me and it was like it was fightor.
It was winter die.
Sir Gene (33:44):
Mm-hmm.
Tucker Max (33:45):
By the time I got to books two and three, I was like
a, like a Roman emperor I wasbathing and pussy and gold and
like, it was the, the stories,it's better writing and they're
better constructed and the jokesare technically funnier, but I
am missing the manic must haveenergy like it's not there.
And you can, and you can feel itwhen you read it.
(34:08):
It's weird, man.
It's a very weird thing and Ican see it pretty clearly.
Two and three.
I was, it wasn't an act, it wasjust, I was in a different phase
in my life and I kind of wishI'd written two and three from
the energy of Book one, which Icould've, I could've just kept
going.
I didn't, uh, because Hollywoodcame calling very quickly and,
um, and when you're, I likeanyone who intentionally goes
(34:31):
out to be famous, which I did.
Um, that narcissism is aboutfilling a hole in.
And so I had, I was, you know,Hollywood's a way bigger fire
hose than books.
And so having a TV show or moviewould, you know, whatever.
And so I kind of ignored bookwriting for a while and focused
on Hollywood.
(34:53):
And, um, it worked.
I got, I sold two TV shows andgot a movie made.
You know, like lots of people goto Hollywood, very few get
anything made, and I.
and it was horrible.
Every aspect of, bro, I got toHollywood thinking I was a
soulless narcissist, and then Imet actual soulless narcissist,
and I was like, holy fuck, likebro,
Sir Gene (35:17):
You got a long way to go.
Tucker Max (35:18):
bro, they weren't just a little different
Sir Gene (35:21):
Mm-hmm.
Tucker Max (35:21):
It's like, it's like, it's like think, it's like
playing neighborhood footballand thinking you're a badass and
then getting to the nfl I'mlike, oh, hold on.
Except, except with horribledepravity and soullessness.
instead of athletic skill.
Oh man.
Dude, I don't think I'd everactually met a truly evil
(35:42):
sociopath until I got toHollywood.
I, I probably did, but like, Broand I, it's not like I didn't
even see all the pedophiles,right?
Like I didn't go to Nickelodeon.
Like I was only in like, I wasonly dealing with the rapists,
you know, like at Weinstein,nutty.
Like I was only seeing that sideand not just, that's the funny
thing about the whole HarveyWeinstein thing.
(36:02):
He's a horrible, horriblecriminal rapist.
There's no doubt everyone inHollywood knew.
Sir Gene (36:08):
Mm-hmm.
Tucker Max (36:09):
Everyone had a Weinstein story about how he did
something to them or to a friendthat they knew directly, right?
So like it's like that, buthere's what no one talks about,
man, is that like, let me put itthis way.
So once the tide shifted on him,and I'm glad it did, like I
don't know what the number was,20, 30, 40 women came out and
(36:32):
said he assaulted them, which isawesome.
That's courageous for them.
I'm glad that that.
Think of the thousands of womenthat Weinstein dealt with in
Hollywood and the hundreds thathe made stars who haven't said
anything that should tell youeverything you need to know
about the type of person inHollywood.
(36:54):
And they're not, not sayinganything cuz they're afraid.
That's not that that ship hassailed
Sir Gene (37:00):
yeah.
And then,
Tucker Max (37:00):
great, but like there's a reason.
Sir Gene (37:03):
you think anything's changed though in Hollywood or
did just one guy get named andnothing really in the system
changed?
Tucker Max (37:10):
no, of course not, bro.
The system is built on beingevil like it Come on, man.
Like the whole system is builton that.
That's what it is.
That's the history of it, isexploitation, uh, of talent and
artists.
And a lot of things.
That's what it is, man.
It's built on that.
(37:30):
And I'm not saying no, everyonethere is awful.
Like there's a few people whoare like genuinely pretty good
people who somehow exist in thatcesspool of sociopathic evil.
I don't know how, but they do.
But they're the rare exceptionman.
Like, um, I forget the screen.
(37:51):
He's pretty well known.
He did some big movies when,when the Weinstein thing broke,
he's done a bunch of movies for,for Mere Maxim Weinstein, and he
wrote this Facebook post, whichI think is deleted now.
I should have saved it.
It was so good, man.
Like he's obviously, he's afamous screenwriter.
He was a good writer and hebasically wrote this whole thing
about how I think the, he calledit.
We all knew.
(38:11):
And, um, like, he just likedetailed, like, you know, I was
there, I knew this.
I, I didn't see Weinsteinactually rape a woman, but I
knew, I knew.
And he is like, and don't sayyou didn't know, you knew too,
just like I did.
And he went, it's like, youknow, like, like look around
man.
Like Matt Damon had been Aflacor walk around like nothing
happened brother.
Those motherfuckers.
(38:33):
They knew for a fact.
I don't, I doubt theyparticipated.
I'm not calling them rapists,but they absolutely
unequivocally knew and there'slike not just a couple of
accounts of it.
Like they knew.
They knew.
There's lots of women who arelike, I told Matt Damon like a
lot, dozens, well, Ben Affleckknew this, so.
Sir Gene (38:54):
Yep.
Tucker Max (38:55):
When there's no consequences for being a party
to horrific sociopathy, why doyou think it would go?
Like, what's gonna cause it togo away?
It
Sir Gene (39:04):
Yeah.
So it just goes moreunderground.
Tucker Max (39:07):
or it just shifts to different people and they use
different
Sir Gene (39:09):
Yeah.
Or I don't know if you saw, uh,I guess Jim Carey is suing
somebody for the, uh, leakingthe list of flights to Epstein's
Island.
Tucker Max (39:21):
Why is he on it?
Sir Gene (39:23):
Yeah.
Tucker Max (39:24):
Well, I
Sir Gene (39:25):
And I, I don't have a whole lot more for than that.
I'm, maybe this will datepoorly, but uh, when stuff like
that comes out, I mean, I'm, I'mnot really surprised.
It's just kind of like, clearlypeople wanted to keep that list
from ever seeing the light ofday.
Tucker Max (39:42):
I mean, my understanding is there are
definitely some people on thefringes with Epstein who are not
involved with the horriblestuff.
That's possible.
Sure.
Right.
Like, fuck, I'll get, I hung outone night.
You know, Jared from Subway, theguy who was like the, had all
the
Sir Gene (39:59):
Yeah.
The guy who lost weight.
Tucker Max (40:00):
Right.
I was at a basket, like abasketball thing in Indiana
once, and hung out with him onenight for a few hours.
So it's like, like I, of course,I didn't know this is long
before any of that happened,right?
He's in jail now as he.
It is possible to intersect withhorrific people and not be
involved in their stuff.
Right.
Um, so is it possible someonewrote on one of Epstein and he
(40:22):
gave a lot of money to a lot ofinstitutions and he ingratiated
himself with a lot of people.
Yeah, sure.
But that's the way these peoplework, is let, let, let's get
everyone just dirty enough thatthey're not gonna call me out
because they don't wanna.
Sir Gene (40:36):
Mm-hmm.
Tucker Max (40:37):
So I who know, I'm not saying Jim Carey did or
didn't do.
I don't know.
I've never met Jim.
I don't know anything about Jim.
Um, you know, but like, yeah,dude, like the, the, I don't
know.
I know a lot of people from thatworld a lot, and I don't know
many of them.
In fact, I can name maybe twowho I would let around my.
(41:00):
And I don't mean like I'd letwatch my kids, like not one of
them would I ever let watch mykid, but I can think of less
than five that I would let in myhouse when my kids were there
Sir Gene (41:13):
Wow.
Tucker Max (41:14):
So, and, and I just, I don't necessarily mean that
they were deadly kids, right?
I don't know.
Who knows?
But it's just like that there'sno compromise between food and.
You know, like if I hand you aglass of wine, I'm like, Jean,
it's just a tiniest bit of poopin there.
You can't really even see it.
Okay, well I'm, are you drinkingit or not?
I'm not like if you got intothat system, because at some
(41:39):
point you're gonna see what itis and then you decided to stay.
That's all I needed to know,mayor, like I decided to leave.
And on my own long, I had toleave.
I got a fucking movie.
Once you get a movie made, onceyou start down the path, you can
inver.
I mean, the movie didn't dothat.
Well, I'm not trying to act likeI was, uh, you know, everyone
(42:00):
was clamoring to work with me.
But it would've been easy tokeep going.
Easy.
No, I couldn't.
It was like I decided I wantedto keep my soul.
Instead of sell it and it, itis, the metaphor is sell your
soul is a great metaphor, man,cuz it really, you, you do have
to at some point look yourselfin the mirror and decide, all
right, I, at, at minimum, I amgoing to turn away from evil
(42:24):
that I know is happening so Ican get a benefit from this
system.
That's the minimum thing.
Even if you don't participate,I, I am going to willingly turn
a blind eye to shit I know isgoing.
Sir Gene (42:38):
Yeah.
You gotta compromise withyourself.
Tucker Max (42:40):
Yep.
Sir Gene (42:42):
So
Tucker Max (42:42):
a sociopath though.
I guess
Sir Gene (42:44):
then, then you're lucky.
You
Tucker Max (42:45):
Right then it's like, what?
Yeah.
Then you don't care.
But
Sir Gene (42:49):
Uh, so that's who's drawn to
Tucker Max (42:51):
yeah, that those are the
Sir Gene (42:52):
but I gotta ask on the, uh, the whole Me too thing,
because when that started goingbig, it wasn't just famous
people that were starting to,uh, all of a sudden pop up in
the radar.
Um, did you ever have anyworries about any of the, the
girls that you've had fun withover the years deciding to see
things in a different light?
Tucker Max (43:12):
no.
Not at all.
No, I, I truly didn't like I wasthe ultimate opt-in.
Right.
You know, like, uh, like, youknow, if you're Harvey
Weinstein, he's a fat,disgusting job by the hot
looking dude, right?
Like his best case scenario.
(43:33):
Broken, narcissistic women willsleep with him to get rolls or
something like that.
Sir Gene (43:38):
And at this point, We have a glitch.
unfortunately the second half ofthis interview, a little more
than a half in fact, Is lost.
but no fear.
I will, hopefully be able toreconnect with Tucker.
And re-ask the questions that Iasked them in the second half,
(44:00):
which is really leading up toafter his books.
How he got to where he currentlyis his company, the book
publishing and how he sold that.
Some other fun topics that wecovered.
Shooting and self-reliance.
But unfortunately, So hopefullyyou enjoyed this part of it.
(44:21):
And I will let you guys knowwhen we will reschedule and get
part two.
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