Reframing Comparison, Not knowing what path to take in life, and navigating life in your 20s.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Real life starts and then real life in your 20s, maybe you go
to college, maybe you go to university.
And then it's like, where did that structure go?
Now I'm like responsible for my own life and no one's talking
about how hard some of these things are.
And no one's going to provide methe answer.
There's no textbook the way my previous studies would have
(00:22):
provided me with with answers and guidelines.
What is up guys? And welcome back to Skinny
Dipping podcast. I'm Kayla Rose and I am with Oh
my gosh, guys. I can't even express how excited
I am in my soul because I've been waiting for this moment to
(00:46):
get this queen on my podcast forliterally years.
And so many of you probably alsolisten to her podcast The
Psychology of your 20s. I know you're probably screaming
right now literally even hearingthat name because I just feel
like this is the crossover people have been asking for and
waiting for with the skinny dipping fam and I just cannot
wait to dive into what it feels like to be in your 20s.
(01:09):
If you guys know, this mini season of the podcast is all
about 20 something Diaries, right?
We're really diving into how it feels like to ever evolve in our
20s. And me and Gemma were talking
and we're like, Oh my gosh, there's been so many turning
points in our 20s. And it feels like as we're
entering this second-half of our20s, you know, you're 25, I'm
(01:32):
26. And it's like, it's just this
new age of discovering ourselvesin a new way.
And how do we navigate that? How do we navigate the
contractions? How do we navigate the
expansions? And I feel like she is the
perfect person to dive into thisall with today.
I feel like I'm going to leave feeling like I don't know, like
I've heard the things that I've needed to hear because right now
(01:56):
I don't know. I'm feeling lost in my 20s.
And I feel like she's the queen of making people feel so seen in
that process, in that mental health process.
So without further ado, skinny dipping listeners, let's strip
down and dive in and welcome on the beautiful Gemma Spag, the
(02:16):
host of Psychology of Our 20s. Welcome to the podcast,
Beautiful. Hi.
Hi, Oh my goodness. I'm so excited to be here.
Like the listeners need to know we, we have worked to make this
happen. Like it's been a pro.
Like we, we both really want to be here right now.
(02:36):
I'm so busyness. Like I think that we first
connected like almost two to three years ago.
I. Know I.
Love to be your friend, do you remember?
This I know I was like, I need to be your friend because I saw
your podcast and I was like, youare so fucking real, honestly.
And that's what I admire about you is like no matter what
you're experiencing, like you are so real about the process of
(03:00):
what you're going through and you are coming out with your new
book, which is person in progress, right?
That's like the name of the. Book the title.
Yeah, a Road map to the psychology of your 20s.
It literally comes out when we're recording this in less
than 12 days. Oh my gosh, it is so, Oh my
(03:22):
gosh, this is going to be so incredibly exciting.
So let's just strip down and dive right in.
What inspired you to write this book and what is like the main
messages that you just really want people to take away from
this? OK, so tell me, take a break.
Yeah, I'm going to take you guysback.
I'm going to take you right backto the very beginning.
I was born, I was told by someone you should not write a
(03:45):
book until you feel like you arethe one who needed to read that
book, until there is something that is saying there is no
reality going forward in which you cannot write this book.
So for a long time, and I mean, like, since I was a child, I was
like, I'm going to be an author.I just know it.
Like I just know I have the capacity to ramble.
(04:05):
I have the capacity. And you have the innate wisdom,
honestly. And I feel like as a kid, like
we have those bread crumbs of knowingness, you know, we know
that something calls to our soul, you know, like I always
knew that I wanted to be on the mic.
So I get it. Me too.
And that's the thing. I was like, oh, it was just this
weird thing where I was like, atsome point this will happen
(04:26):
because I love telling stories. And it just ended up happening
at the perfect time. You know, I created the
psychology of your 20s. That in itself was such a wild
journey. It felt like this idea landed in
my lap, like somewhere out in the ethos, someone, something
(04:49):
wanted this podcast to be made. And they were like, who is the
person right now who is most primed to make this happen?
Chills. They were like that girl who
just went through a breakup, who's studying psychology, who's
already having all these conversations with her friends.
And I remember starting the podcast and being like, much
like how I felt about writing this book, I just have to do
(05:11):
this. Like, there is no reality going
forward in which this is not something that is part of my
story. And it was just such a calling.
Like it, It's such it was such acalling when.
It was like banging at your door.
It was like begging to by you. It was like, girl, we need you.
Well, I think it was also I justhad this feeling of like, if you
(05:32):
don't do this, like someone elseis going to do it and you're
going to regret it. But also if you don't do this,
like this is for you. And it's something that I tell
people whenever they want to getinto something creative, whether
it's YouTube, whether it's writing, art, podcasting,
songwriting. If you are not doing it solely
for you and your passion and love at the beginning, like any
(05:54):
creative endeavour, takes so much from you that you have to
be 100% in it for the right reasons to find any kind of
success later on. Exactly.
You have to be so dedicated. You have to be so dedicated
beyond just what you think couldbe the financial gain.
Because if you're motivated by that, when the roadblocks start
(06:14):
to come up, which we probably both know from having, you know,
successful podcasts that they do.
Like, even if everyone else around you is looking at us
being like, Oh my gosh, you haveit.
You created it. You created the dream, you
created the podcast. It's like no matter how much I
feel like I've had an I made it moment, even after an I made it
moment always comes a moment of,Oh my God, what am I doing?
(06:38):
What did I get myself into? And having those doubts and
needing to continue to push forward, I genuinely believe has
to be motivated by that internaldesire of passion.
Like it has to be or else you'regoing to you're going to give
up. It's totally true.
And I think everyone at some stage should commit fully to
(06:59):
making something and to creatingsomething, a project, whatever
it is that they're proud of because you learn true
commitment and you learn what itmeans to be like, I actually
don't like there's been points where I've been like, I don't
want to do this anymore. Like this is so much work,
Especially at the beginning, I was like, this is so much work.
I was working a full time job, an intense full time job at the
(07:22):
same time. And the podcast was taking like
30 hours a week on top of already doing my full time job.
And there's just something in you that's just like, you have
no other choice. Like you have to make this and
it just drives you. And the book kind of came out of
that. So obviously the Psychology of
(07:42):
your 20s is the podcast that I've created where we talk about
the biggest things that are happening to you during this
decade and the psychology and science behind it.
And not just like opinion based science, right?
Not just like, I think. This research based.
Yeah, like we are doing peer reviewed research, we are doing
psychological theories that havebeen tested.
(08:04):
And if they haven't been tested,we say this still needs evidence
like. I love it.
I love hot girl science. I know I'm just like, there are
so many young women and young people out there who are like I,
I'm a Wellness woman and I am someone who cares about my
psychology and my brain and my life.
(08:25):
The only option for me cannot besomeone with an opinion.
Like they want scientific, intelligent, meaningful
research. And I think they also do then
want an opinion on the side and they also want someone's
feedback and advice, but they want that in a bed of something
they can trust. Exactly.
(08:47):
And I honestly am so with you there.
Like I feel like I've definitelydone like specific seasons that
have been so rooted in research.And those are always my favorite
because I just feel like the information that we're sharing,
we can have just this deep confidence behind when it's
backed by research. Yeah.
And it just makes you realize, like, oh, what I'm experiencing
(09:08):
is quite universal and human. And I think that's a very
comforting thing, especially in our 20s when it's like, no one's
timeline is the same. I always say this to people, for
the first, let's say 17 years ofyour life, the structures around
your life are most likely similar to someone else at your
age. That being school, obviously
(09:30):
some people drop out, some people don't have access to
education in in certain areas. But I would say the majority of
us, at least in that early phaseof our lives, in our childhood
years, in our teenage years. And should we know?
Yeah. And.
We know what the. End is.
And also no space. There's also no space for like
(09:50):
time, freedom and choice. And where do I spend my time
'cause like for me it was like school, like ballet or theater,
and then like another practice and homework than bed.
And it's like life was so laid out for us, there was no choice.
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(11:18):
And that's the thing, it's like,and you, everyone kind of has
the same goal, which is like, I'm going to graduate and then
real life starts. And then real life in your 20s,
maybe you go to college, maybe you go to university.
And then it's like, where did that structure go?
Now I'm like responsible for my own life.
And no one's talking about how hard some of these things are.
(11:41):
And no one's going to provide methe answer.
There's no textbook the way my previous studies would have
provided me with, with answers and guidelines.
And so I think that's why peoplereally are cold to the
psychology of your 20s because it's like, OK, yes, there's no
guide book, but here is like a fact sheet of information that's
(12:01):
going to make you feel comforted.
Hopefully from someone also in their 20s, you can say, yeah,
that really sucks. Like, we're not going to sugar
coat your situation ship or sugar coat your career anxiety
or sugar coat your tension with your family.
Like this is hard. It's hard.
Yeah. I love that so much because it's
like, I think a lot of people get into like comparison mode
(12:23):
and you mentioned like nobody's timelines are the same.
And it's literally crazy becauseeven friends that I literally
love who I don't even want what they have, you know, I like
admire what they have, but that's not my dream.
I don't want it. I still find myself comparing
like, you know, I live on an island, more like Country Life.
(12:44):
And it's like, but do I need to be in the city?
Do I need to be doing this? And I think getting pulled in so
many directions, especially withsocial media and, and social
media showing us what everybody has going on, it can be really
easy to compare the timelines. And it's debilitating, you know,
it's paralyzing. It makes us not want to move
(13:05):
forward because we're so stuck in our own bodies.
What would your advice be for meeven, or for anybody else
listening who relates to that? Like, what would you say?
What, what would you say? Like, because it seems like this
is something you've thought about a lot, especially just
working with so many people in their 20s, you know?
Oh, yeah. And it's the biggest issue that
I think people have, like comparison, you know, that's the
(13:27):
Angel quote. Comparison is the thief of joy.
It's also the thief of peace. It's the thief of happiness.
It's the thief of contentment. You will never be happy if you
continue to compare. But the comparing feels like
it's a prison in itself. Actually have a whole chapter in
my book exactly about this called Oh.
(13:49):
Chills. I feel like we're supposed.
To talk the paradox of choice, yeah.
The paradox of choice. Being like, yeah, I didn't come
up, what do I want? The Fig.
Tree analogy, kind of. Analogy, the Sylvia plastic tree
analogy. We are so lucky.
We have so many opportunities. It's such a blessing that is
also quite paralyzing. And there's a very famous,
(14:11):
famous study that they actually did at Stanford on jam that's
right on like strawberry jam where they went to a farmer's
market and they wanted to say, do people do better?
And are they actually happier with more or less choice?
Because obviously our intuition is to say, oh, more choice,
right? More choice, more freedom, more
(14:32):
liberation, more agency. Actually, what they found was on
the first day they went and theyhad 24 jams.
And they said, you know, they set up the store at this farmers
market and they counted how manypeople bought jam when they had
24 options the exact same time aweek later, same day, they went
back with only six jams. And they wanted to see, are more
(14:55):
people going to buy them? The numbers, the number of
people who are willing to make apurchase and we're happier with
their purchase when they only had six options compared to 24
was insanely significant. And this is what I think people
in their 20s that any decade need to know is that it's OK to
feel paralyzed by how many different paths you have through
(15:19):
life. What I need you to do is be
really selective and choose three to four that you think you
would be seriously happy with and know that you can live all
of those timelines. Truly, as someone who has
already done like three of the three of the lives I wanted to
live, like, you know what I mean?
(15:39):
Like you will find that life is actually quite long and you do
have time. Comparison will make you feel
like everything is urgent. You always need to be shifting
onto someone else's timeline because gosh, doesn't their life
look delightful whilst they're looking at you and thinking the
same thing. And I think that we think
(16:00):
comparison is quite a linear act.
Like it's almost like a ladder where there's someone on the
bottom who compares to someone one rung higher.
One rung higher it gets all the way to the top and there must be
someone at the top who is completely happy, who everyone
is envious of, who has everything.
Comparison is a circle, not a ladder.
That person who we assume is at the top is probably comparing
(16:23):
themselves to someone else who thinks they're at the bottom.
Everyone who like you are sitting there comparing yourself
to someone else who is then comparing themselves to someone
else who's comparing themselves to you.
Everyone, I believe, has something in their life.
I'm. Like taking this, I've never
heard anybody say that. Gemma, you have to understand,
(16:44):
like, there are so many times that I feel like I'm so tired of
the rhetoric that I'm seeing andlike, listening to you right now
with such just authentic, real, original ideas.
I'm just like, like, you don't know how much you telling me
this right now is changing my life.
Oh, I'm so glad it's not a ladder.
Like it is a circle. Yeah, I know when I remember.
(17:06):
I'm like, I'm just like, I've never heard that before ever.
You know that it's not very often you hear things you have
never heard before. So I just had to like stop for a
moment and be like that. Just that just changed something
in my neural pathways, I swear to God.
It's such an important thing, and I think if you're a visual
person like I in the book, I love to give as much of A visual
analogy for your thoughts as possible.
(17:29):
Because often things like comparison, things like fear,
things like jealousy, things like longing, we see them as
this very like these floating things that come down and
influence us and they're something we need to fight
against. And I think when we can
visualize them in this way that makes sense and creates A
narrative around them, they feela lot easier to manage.
(17:52):
And they're digestible. Yeah.
And can I say this, Kayla, I actually will never argue or say
that you should not compare yourself to others.
The comparison is natural. It's the negative feelings
associated with it that we need to control.
So what I always say to people is it's OK to compare and be
(18:13):
like, wow, she has so much more than me.
Her life seems so much more peaceful.
Her love story seems so much more organic than mine.
Take those statements of comparison and then I need you
to add and and wow her life is perfect and that's great for
her. Wow she has so much and so do I
(18:35):
Wow she's so successful and whatan inspiration.
One day I will be too. Like you cannot allow your
comparison to be a complete sentence and just let like the
negative emotions take over you.I love that that is such
actually amazing, actionable advice for when people kind of
get in this comparison spiral, you know, like that prison that
(18:57):
you were talking about earlier. Because it's also like, Oh my
God, their relationship is so like, great.
It looks so beautiful and peaceful.
It's like, and I have no idea what's going on.
Like actually like, I actually don't know those people's lives.
And also being like, and I also have so much love and I love
that because that's just such a great way to teach your brain
through repetition. OK, if we and add an and at the
(19:20):
end of this sentence, it gives myself an opportunity to reflect
on what is actually my truth, you know, not just like kind of
this looping programming that's continuing to speak up.
You know, it's just like, OK, and gives me a new opportunity
to reframe it all in that exact moment.
(19:40):
That is honestly, it's so beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that. But that's what it is.
It's like, it's a branch. It's like, OK.
And it's like, because if you'vehad a negative thought, like,
it's probably just going to keepgoing in that same direction
unless you turn it, unless you like take the train off the
rails to another path. So I'm glad that resonated.
With you, I honestly want to go back to something that you said.
(20:01):
You said that. Everybody in their life should
dedicate themselves to a project, some sort of like
creative endeavor because of, you know, the commitment that it
teaches. It's also what you teach
yourself, what you learn about yourself through the dedication,
through the commitment, through the process of moving through
the contractions and the expansions and the DAO and the
(20:21):
perseverance. And I'm just so curious how the
actual process of writing this book, how did it impact you
personally? Like what did it teach you about
yourself? Oh my goodness, that's such a
great question. I'm like just.
Genuinely curious. I'm like, 'cause I know whenever
I create something it teaches meso much about myself.
(20:42):
Like learning anything new and doing anything for the first
time just reveals so much to myself about who I am as well as
my blind spots as well as my doubts as well as my places of
strength. It just reveals so much to me.
So I'm so curious if any anything came up for you in the
process of writing. I'm going to begin with the
(21:03):
blind spot, actually. We can save the glamorous nature
of it. Firstly, writing a book is
really difficult. And everyone was like, it's
really difficult. And then I was like, oh wow,
they will write of course. You're like OK, but like.
Yeah, I was like, I was like, you're like, this is just going
to like pour out of me. Like love.
I like, I think about this. I talk about this every single
(21:24):
day. And I have for the past like 3
to 4 years, like there's nothingnew here.
Then I was like, Oh yes, there is like there's so much, so much
space to explore this in a completely different way.
I definitely learned that my perfectionism is my biggest
barrier to doing anything. I learned that I struggle with
(21:44):
criticism perhaps more than I realized.
I'm someone who is always, in a strange way, worked quite solo
and been accountable to myself for a lot of what I've done.
So even when I was a researcher,even when I was working in
mental health, even when I was aconsultant, I was going back
(22:05):
through it, having written this book and being like, oh, all of
those, like I never really worked in a team where I could
be criticized. And when you write a book, you
get a lot of feedback. And because writing a book.
Is from my publishers or. From publishers, from readers,
from. Yeah, just those kinds of
people. And like, this is everything to
(22:31):
you, right? Like, you've just poured your
entire soul and your heart into this thing.
And like, readers will read the book and be like, oh, wow, this
is this is there's a lot of vulnerable moments.
You know, I talk about a really terrible heartbreak in probably
too much detail. Like I talk about, you know,
mental breakdown I had. I talk about a friendship
breakup. I talk about the friendship
(22:51):
breakups. Oh yeah, the friendship
breakups. And so when it's literally, it
feels like your life story and every single piece of wisdom
that you've scraped together over the years from your lived
experience and someone's like, Idon't agree with that or this
doesn't sound great. It can be really difficult to be
like, oh, you're right. Yeah.
(23:13):
And what is like that fine line between like, like trusting the
people that you're getting the feedback from and also trusting
what you know to be true and like your, your perspective,
like what is that balance beam that you've been walking?
Well, that's the balance. It was hard to strike where I
had to be like, at what point doI stand up for myself and my
ideas and say I'm committed to this?
(23:34):
And at what point do I accept that these people have been
doing this for a long time and are very, very intelligent?
And also, I'm not as loyal to the things I've put in this book
as I am Like, of course, I thinkit's great.
I wrote it like, I thought this was important to put in writing.
Yeah. And so I actually, I found that
(23:54):
it was the first, like, draft. I agreed with a lot of what they
said because I was like, I'm just going to give it to the
experts. But the second draft, I was
like, no, this is important. This story is important.
It might. There was one story where they
were like, oh, this kind of makes you sound not particularly
likeable, and I was. Like, what is the story?
Can we know a little? Yeah, a little sneaky.
(24:15):
Not the full story, but like. There's a couple.
Well, there was 2 actually. One of them was removed mainly
just because of the other personinvolved.
I was like, ah, it's not really fair.
It's kind of both our stories. And it was a story.
It was a similar story of a friendship breakup where I had
done the wrong thing. And it was probably like 4-4 or
five years ago. Four years, four or five years
(24:36):
ago. Yeah.
And I was in the wrong and I wasa really bad friend and I was
selfish. And I was just in this mindset
of just numbness for many consequences because I was on a
rampage, right? And I talked about that and how
being a good friend involves taking accountability.
(24:57):
And sometimes you need to actually be humble in order to
repair something. And they were like, you don't
sound very likeable here. And I was like, yeah, but that's
the point. Like that's the.
Point. You're like, I'm a person in
progress. Yeah, you're like I had.
You're like this. Is good to get the point of.
The book like I am like making mistakes and learning and I
mean, that's so I'm glad you kept like kind of like, yeah,
(25:20):
you walk that balance beam and you're like, OK, I'll keep this
one, but I'll take this one out,you know, as like, 'cause it, I
think the all or nothing mindsetis what really holds us back and
just being like, OK, how can I find like the middle way, the
middle path in this? But I love that you also like
stuck your guns and like kept one of them in.
Well, the other one is about ourrelationship.
(25:40):
And you know what? I'm going to be totally
vulnerable. Like the person that I wrote
this about the story has not read it.
We have not spoken in a long time.
But I know he's aware that the book is coming out and I know
he's aware that there are sections about him.
But I think I was quite kind in,in my assessment and being like,
this was this relationship that was terrible, objectively
(26:03):
terrible. But it wasn't just your fault.
It was my fault as well. And I was, you know, I was
repeating history and repeating patterns and relationships for
these very reasons. And these are the psychological
reasons that I've come to appreciate what part of a hidden
part of our story that we never fully acknowledged.
(26:26):
So I think the, my main thing when writing this book was like,
I'm not going to sit here and belike, I am this perfect example
of a 20 something who has everything together and who has
never made a mistake and came out of the gates in a perfect
relationship with perfect friends and knew who what her
purpose was. Like, no, this has been trial
and this has been trial and error.
(26:47):
And it will be for you as well, which that's beautiful.
It's refreshing. That's so refreshing and it's
going to make so many people feel seen.
And you should be so proud of yourself for being willing to
exist in that vulnerability of being like, I have made
mistakes, you know? And you know, I even think with
like the podcast, I always find those are the episodes that get
the best feedback when I'm just so fucking honest and
(27:09):
vulnerable. Not going to lie.
The vulnerability hangover is real, though.
I don't know if you experienced that, but like sometimes I'm
like, like, I like create something and then I put it out
there and I'm like, OK, I don't even know if I can like look now
because I'm like what I just shared with all these, not even
the strangers don't even bother me.
It's like my mom, my ex friends seeing something like that's
(27:32):
that's the personal thing that triggers the vulnerability
hangover for me where I'm like, Oh my gosh, like people really
just get a full glance. But I think that's what, you
know, makes people so drawn to you, you know, specifically like
is because you're willing to be that person and it takes
bravery. You know it.
Not everybody can do. I mean, not that not everybody
(27:54):
can do it, but not everybody hasthe willingness to do it.
What was the last time you had avulnerability hangover from
something you made? Oh my gosh, literally I just
released like a podcast today that I feel like I'm.
Like I just saw that come out. I'm so excited.
Vulnerability hangover just because I think for me, one of
(28:16):
my like biggest insecurities when it comes to how other
people perceive me is obviously like I do have this like light
and positivity and like, you know, but then I feel like I'm
equally matched with like the ability to go deep and dark and,
and low and sad. And, and I just think sometimes
I'm afraid to like reveal that part of myself to people, like
(28:37):
specifically my audience. I'm like, I don't want you to
know that sometimes I have trouble taking care of myself
and doing the bare minimum and like folding my clothes and like
making myself food. Like, like, but I feel like it's
so important for people to hear that part and then also hear
like, OK, how did I move throughit?
Because I've been really realizing that all like the
(28:59):
doubt is just really trying to teach me how to trust.
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because I'm actually not a trusting person.
(30:04):
So honestly, today is a little bit of a vulnerability hangover.
Honestly, it was last night. It was like when I was ending
and posting and watching it backand I was like, I can't believe
I'm going to share this. I was like, I can't believe my
mom's going to watch this. I was like, you know, just
little things like that. And yeah, but I'm honestly
really grateful for like, other creatives in the space, like
(30:26):
doing that as well, because it inspires me and makes me feel
stronger to share the more vulnerable parts of myself when
I see other people doing it. It's like that permission slip.
And I always just felt like you were one of those people that
did it for me so honestly. Thank you so much for that.
Oh my Lord, that's such a nice because I feel like I I really
get where you're coming from, but I I like posting a video.
(30:50):
Well, not a video, an episode last year about like how I had a
mental breakdown and we weren't talking about here.
Like you can go and listen to itbecause it's like, not really
what we're we're talking about. But I like remember, I cannot
listen back to that. But I was also debating whether
to repost it up until the minutethat I pressed publish because I
(31:13):
was like, I'm about to become a very unstable narrator for a lot
of people. Totally, especially when people
look to us and they want us to like feel like this stable
force. And it's like, oh, I don't want
to like let you down, but it's the truth is like.
I'm depressed. It's fucking messy.
Like, yeah, I'm like, I I struggle with my mental health
and that's why I have gotten into this space because I felt
(31:36):
like like I needed help when I was younger and I wish I knew
more. And I'm sure it's similar for
you. Like what is your purpose
around? I mean, just like the bigger
picture of sharing about psychology and sharing about
science and sharing about mentalhealth, Like what is that bigger
picture? Why for you?
I think the why is very similar to yours.
(31:58):
And it's like, well, if I'm someone has to be willing to
talk about it, why not me? And that is actually, if you're
thinking, if you, if you struggle with imposter syndrome
comparison, motivation towards abig goal, it's the easiest
question to ask yourself, why not me?
(32:18):
Because you know, if you've had lived experience, you were
exactly what someone else with lived experience probably needs
to say. I also think that I've always
been so fascinated. The reason I was so drawn to it
was I was always so fascinated by my own brain and how I would
how I was reacting and behaving,but also how other people
(32:39):
behaved and other people reacted.
And I was always like, why? Why do we as humans do things?
And why do we as humans act so irrationally?
Like what's up with that? Literally it's like why am I so
reactive right now? Yeah, like why am I just
responding the same like withouteven consciously choose like
(33:00):
choosing my response? Yeah, like, why am I sabotaging
my relationship? That's perfect.
Why am I so sad about this like thing that I promised myself I
would, I was over? Like, how come I how come I know
I'm not meant to be with this person or that this life or this
opportunity isn't for me and yetI'm still mourning it.
Like humans are full of contradictions.
(33:21):
And I always say like the hardest things to appreciate and
get over as humans are when 2 truths are equal, are when two
things are equally true. Like back to that.
Yeah, the, the contradiction. Like back to that love analogy,
you know, I know this person is bad for me, but I love them.
Two truths, both equally valid. Or you know, I know that I want
(33:46):
to make more money, but I'm so cold to this thing where I'm not
making money. 2 truths, both valid, you know?
I know that me and this person had a me and my parent or me and
my sibling had a complicated relationship, but I still want
to repair it. Like I just feel like there's.
Or it's like if somebody's not like somebody's not in my life
anymore, and I know they're not supposed to be in my life, but I
(34:07):
still think about them and I still miss them.
Yeah, human being is a full of contradictions and irrational
thinking. And I think that's where, like
my drive to understand psychology came from because I
was like, surely someone's got an answer here, like.
Yeah. So what, what give us like a
little like, do you have anything off the top of your
head like when it comes to navigating these contradictions
based on psychology? Like, like what would you like?
(34:30):
Do you have any kind of like actual techniques or just like
anything for people to reflect on and take with them 'cause I
think the contradictions for me personally is like kind of drive
me wild sometimes, you know, especially as like a conscious
thinker. Sometimes I'm like, just wish I
wasn't just such a thought daughter, you know, I just wish
I wasn't such a girl. But I'm like, why do I have so
(34:50):
many thoughts and why do I look at everything with such
curiosity and like dive so deep into things?
But then I'm also so grateful for that part of myself because
it lights me up to do it. But also, sometimes I'm like, it
must be nice, yeah. Oh my God, the classic
overthinker like stereotype of like, what does it mean?
I remember like my, my boyfriendwas like, I don't know, he like
(35:15):
asked me the other day. He's like, when was the last
time you weren't thinking about anything?
And I was like, that's an option.
Like you did not like that kind of programming.
Like that's some people can do that.
It's like there's a quote in Mean Girls, not Mean Girls out
New Girl with Smith, which we love, where Schmidt is like, you
(35:37):
just walk around all day like thinking about everyone else's
feelings. And she was like, yeah, of
course I do. What else am I meant to think
about? And he was like, that must be
exhausting. And she's like, well, and that's
how I feel sometimes. I'm sure you feel that way as
well. Definitely especially like with
my partner. And would you like, have you
found like supporting evidence about like how men think versus
(35:58):
how women think? No, it actually, I don't think
it has anything to do with gender specifically.
I think it's more like socialization, but it also comes
down to personality. And this, you know, if you're
thinking about the big 5 personality traits and it's a
simple way to think about this. There's definitely a more
complicated, complex explanation, but essentially
people like you and I are high in what is called neuroticism,
(36:23):
which is not a very fun term, but.
Just neurotic baddies. Honestly.
We're like. Neurotic baddies.
Yeah, like I'll. Speak it like.
Yeah, that's that could that would be a great podcast.
If anyone wants to start a new anew podcast, Neurotic Baddies
would be an amazing name for onefor.
Over thinkers. Yeah, exactly.
Neuroticism just means high levels of over thinking, high
(36:47):
levels of anxiety. And so it's freaking rough.
And I've also had the same thought process recently.
We were talking about this before of like, wow, what would
it be like to just shut my brainoff for a little bit?
What would it be like to just not overthink everything, to
just not need an answer to everything as well?
(37:09):
I think when you're dealing withthe what if, what if, what if my
brain was better, would that mean my life with my brain was
different? Surely I'd be happier, Surely
everything would be better. You do need to just remember
that every floor of faults that you see in your personhood, that
(37:32):
is actually also an asset and that has also gifted you access
to things that other people are wanting.
And again, it comes back to the comparison thing.
But one of my best friends, her name is Aaron, we talk about
this a lot. And she's like, yes, I am.
Yes, I overthink everything. Yes, I care too much.
But I would much rather that than caring too little.
(37:53):
I'd much rather be a deep thinker than be someone who
doesn't think at all. You know, it's, it's kind of
cognitive reframing and being like, what?
How can I turn what feels like suffering, what feels like
difficulty like, into an asset? Like we wouldn't have podcasts
if we weren't neurotic. Literally no.
It's so true. It's like, honestly, even though
sometimes it can be so frustrating and it can feel
(38:16):
debilitating, I do feel like especially with the tools that
I've developed in my early 20s to like support my anxiety and
to support the, the speed at which my mind moves.
I honestly wouldn't change it for the world because I, and I
do love my brain. Like I love that.
I love that she creates so many connections and she's always
(38:37):
like people bopping to all thesedifferent things.
And it's something that makes me, me.
And honestly, I love that we're doing this reframe 'cause I
actually wouldn't change it for the world thinking about it like
I wouldn't want. That or it's just like, it's
like having, I don't know, it's like any relationship.
Like I know you've been with your partner for a long time.
(39:00):
I've had, you know, we've all got had friends that we've had
for a long time. We've known our siblings and our
parents for a long time. There is something about each of
those people that you find difficult, like let's be totally
real here. And there's something they find
difficult about you. But All in all, like you are
still one of their favorite people in the world and you are
still incredible and the light of their life like 90% of you
(39:26):
they love. But there is always going to be
that little part that frustratesthem or that irritates them and
the same for you towards those people.
Like why can't we have that nuanced relationship with
ourself as well and expect imperfection from ourselves and
be OK with that? Well, expect imperfection is so
beautiful because I feel like, yeah, 1 of I've realized in my
(39:50):
mental processes over the last couple months is like one of my
biggest like barriers, like where yours is like perfection.
Mine is expectation, like the expectation of like how how
other people should be like in my relationship.
But then I texted my best friendthe other day and I was like,
you know, I think with my partner, with Hobbs, I honestly
(40:10):
just have so many expectations of him because I'm just actually
like trying to reposition. All the heavy expectations that
I've had on myself my entire life and I'm trying to like not
put them on myself. And I had that like just full
honest moment with myself and itliterally immediately reframed
everything for me. And I was like, oh, it's not
that he's like constantly messing up because he's actually
(40:31):
not. He's like, actually this
amazing, beautiful partner who loves me so much and has been
there for me through everything.It's that I have this program of
expectation, expectation and letdown.
And you know, I, I used to thinkmy expectations like protected
me, you know, because I was like, oh, it makes my life good
because when I had the expectations, I would work hard
(40:51):
to like make everything go right.
And it's like getting really comfortable with the
imperfection has been the process that I've been in that
has been shifting everything forme.
It's liberating. It's truly liberating.
I'm so glad you found. That everything you've said
today has like, I feel like there's been 3-4 main points
that I'm like going to be I, I knew in my fucking soul when I
(41:14):
stepped into this podcast today,I was like, she's about to say
some things that are really going to impact me in a positive
way that I really needed to hear.
And I just feel so incredibly grateful.
Like we literally touched on nothing that I planned.
And I love that with every part.20 minutes of just chaos.
No, actually, it was actually organized chaos.
(41:35):
I do. I actually think we had like
there was like 3 significant chapters.
So I'm proud of us for like staying in the flow And where
can everybody find, first of all, you, but most importantly,
your book person in progress because it's coming out so soon
where I I think I want to release this podcast next week.
So it'll be coming out in 2 daysfrom now, right?
(41:57):
Or no? Yeah, that yeah, yeah.
And OK, so preorder like tell uswhere can everybody?
Find it, you can preorder it wherever you get books, and I'm
fairly sure it's actually on sale right now.
Even if you just want to go check it out, I'm sure Kayla
will leave a little link in the description.
(42:20):
I am asking people to not buy iton Amazon.
If you can buy it local, that would be great.
I also understand that some people.
Yeah. But I also get that some people
are like in rural locations or it is more affordable for them.
So I would honestly prefer if you know you even got it from
your library rather than gettingit on Amazon.
I'm. Sure.
(42:40):
Honestly I love that though because it's aligned to your
values which I respect 100%. And I know it's, it's just a
way, but yeah, it's out very, very soon.
Kayla, you don't even have a copy yet because.
I need my coffee. So I know you are.
Going to devour it. You're on like the advanced list
(43:00):
and I'm like, get her the book. It's like, you know that thing
in Devil Wears Pride of she's like, get me home, like get me
on the plane. No, the boss bitch and you
coming out, get out of the book.No, I'm going to devour and eat
that book from the beginning to the end.
I'm just so incredibly excited. What would be like?
OK, so the process of this book,you know, you're now in your mid
(43:22):
20s, you're about to be in this expansion of becoming an off
author, stepping into your dream.
Like what would be the thing that you want to say or you have
been saying to your younger self?
Like in this process, what wouldyou want to tell younger you in
this moment as you're stepping into this expansion?
I wasn't planning on doing this,but honestly, I do this with my
(43:43):
friends. Like whenever, like they have
something big going on, I'm always like, OK, what would
younger you say? And can we just like put little
fairy blessings on everything that you're releasing?
I honestly think she would be soexcited.
She would be. She would be pumped.
Like I found my journal from when I was like 4 and I used to
(44:04):
write like little songs, like I don't know, in like little poems
and stuff. Probably like four to seven.
I can't remember how, but it wasreally, really cute.
And it was like bucket list. And it was like become an
author. And then like, wow, I like 20
years later, like I take that off for you.
I would just say to her, like everything you're going to go
(44:24):
through is really important. Even when it feels difficult,
it's really important for you togo through and to have hard,
challenging moments because it will feel terrible, it will feel
restricting, it will feel at times incredibly traumatic, but
it brings you to ultimately a future that you're very happy
(44:47):
with and that is very, very kindto you.
So that's what I would tell her.That is so fucking beautiful.
Thank you. And that's such like the
reminder so many people probablyneeded to hear today, which is
always like my prayer that I askfor when it comes to the podcast
and having guests on. It's just like may whatever come
through like help somebody and Ijust feel like you sharing that
(45:08):
definitely helps somebody. I just have this feeling.
So thank you so much for coming on, guys.
Everything is going to be linkedbelow.
Psychology of your 20's, the podcast, person in progress, the
book and all dramas, socials. So obviously a lot of you
probably know her, but if you don't like you need to, you need
to be following her because she's literally one of my
favorite creators on the Internet just truly because of
(45:31):
her integrity. I think when I look at you and
just especially everything you're doing with combining the
relatability of all of this and the humanness of all of this
paired with the research and paired with the science, like
that just screams integrity to me.
And that's why I always just love following you.
So go check out everything that she's doing.
Guys, get that book. We can maybe we should book club
(45:54):
it in the soul and progress community.
What do you guys think? Should we all book club it
together? That would be so cute.
Would that be epic? All the little skinny dippers.
We're all reading your book together.
If that happens, let me know I'll make I'll I'll get you guys
some some nice crisp sign copiesthat would.
Be crazy. OK, Actually, I think we are
(46:17):
going to do book club next month.
So that would be like so sick and then we meet up and then we
like talk about it. Yeah, we're doing book club and
pen pals next month. So that's like kind of.
You are always. How cute is pen of shit?
You were doing the coolest shit.I was.
I was like a little pen pal series and it was the best.
You're going to have a lot of fun with it.
It's so much fun. I'm.
So excited. I'm so excited.
Thank you so much for coming on.What is the last thing that you
(46:39):
want to leave the Skinny Dipperswith today?
And then we'll sign off. Oh.
My God, what is the last thing? We talked about so many
different things, you know. Oh, I just think the last thing
I would want to leave you with is just go and have some fucking
fun today. I don't know why, but that's
just what I'm being called to say.
(47:00):
There's so much that you should do and that you could do.
Scrap it. Go and have Go and sit in the
park. Go and get a lamington.
Oh, you guys don't have lamingtons?
Go and get a lamingtons. Oh, it's like a sponge cake with
chocolate and coconut on the outside.
It's like OK. So Jelly.
It's like an Australian thing. Yeah, I realize I'm going to go
to get a Lamingtons, that's why.I need it.
Go get a cancel everything and live your joy honestly just for
(47:22):
a day. It honestly is soul revival.
It's the best. That's what I'm calling.
I mean, cool to say today and thanks for.
Having I love that. Thank you so much.
Bye, guys.
Real life starts and then real life in your 20s, maybe you go
to college, maybe you go to university.
And then it's like, where did that structure go?
Now I'm like responsible for my own life and no one's talking
about how hard some of these things are.
And no one's going to provide methe answer.
There's no textbook the way my previous studies would have
(00:22):
provided me with with answers and guidelines.
What is up guys? And welcome back to Skinny
Dipping podcast. I'm Kayla Rose and I am with Oh
my gosh, guys. I can't even express how excited
I am in my soul because I've been waiting for this moment to
(00:46):
get this queen on my podcast forliterally years.
And so many of you probably alsolisten to her podcast The
Psychology of your 20s. I know you're probably screaming
right now literally even hearingthat name because I just feel
like this is the crossover people have been asking for and
waiting for with the skinny dipping fam and I just cannot
wait to dive into what it feels like to be in your 20s.
(01:09):
If you guys know, this mini season of the podcast is all
about 20 something Diaries, right?
We're really diving into how it feels like to ever evolve in our
20s. And me and Gemma were talking
and we're like, Oh my gosh, there's been so many turning
points in our 20s. And it feels like as we're
entering this second-half of our20s, you know, you're 25, I'm
(01:32):
26. And it's like, it's just this
new age of discovering ourselvesin a new way.
And how do we navigate that? How do we navigate the
contractions? How do we navigate the
expansions? And I feel like she is the
perfect person to dive into thisall with today.
I feel like I'm going to leave feeling like I don't know, like
I've heard the things that I've needed to hear because right now
(01:56):
I don't know. I'm feeling lost in my 20s.
And I feel like she's the queen of making people feel so seen in
that process, in that mental health process.
So without further ado, skinny dipping listeners, let's strip
down and dive in and welcome on the beautiful Gemma Spag, the
(02:16):
host of Psychology of Our 20s. Welcome to the podcast,
Beautiful. Hi.
Hi, Oh my goodness. I'm so excited to be here.
Like the listeners need to know we, we have worked to make this
happen. Like it's been a pro.
Like we, we both really want to be here right now.
(02:36):
I'm so busyness. Like I think that we first
connected like almost two to three years ago.
I. Know I.
Love to be your friend, do you remember?
This I know I was like, I need to be your friend because I saw
your podcast and I was like, youare so fucking real, honestly.
And that's what I admire about you is like no matter what
you're experiencing, like you are so real about the process of
(03:00):
what you're going through and you are coming out with your new
book, which is person in progress, right?
That's like the name of the. Book the title.
Yeah, a Road map to the psychology of your 20s.
It literally comes out when we're recording this in less
than 12 days. Oh my gosh, it is so, Oh my
(03:22):
gosh, this is going to be so incredibly exciting.
So let's just strip down and dive right in.
What inspired you to write this book and what is like the main
messages that you just really want people to take away from
this? OK, so tell me, take a break.
Yeah, I'm going to take you guysback.
I'm going to take you right backto the very beginning.
I was born, I was told by someone you should not write a
(03:45):
book until you feel like you arethe one who needed to read that
book, until there is something that is saying there is no
reality going forward in which you cannot write this book.
So for a long time, and I mean, like, since I was a child, I was
like, I'm going to be an author.I just know it.
Like I just know I have the capacity to ramble.
(04:05):
I have the capacity. And you have the innate wisdom,
honestly. And I feel like as a kid, like
we have those bread crumbs of knowingness, you know, we know
that something calls to our soul, you know, like I always
knew that I wanted to be on the mic.
So I get it. Me too.
And that's the thing. I was like, oh, it was just this
weird thing where I was like, atsome point this will happen
(04:26):
because I love telling stories. And it just ended up happening
at the perfect time. You know, I created the
psychology of your 20s. That in itself was such a wild
journey. It felt like this idea landed in
my lap, like somewhere out in the ethos, someone, something
(04:49):
wanted this podcast to be made. And they were like, who is the
person right now who is most primed to make this happen?
Chills. They were like that girl who
just went through a breakup, who's studying psychology, who's
already having all these conversations with her friends.
And I remember starting the podcast and being like, much
like how I felt about writing this book, I just have to do
(05:11):
this. Like, there is no reality going
forward in which this is not something that is part of my
story. And it was just such a calling.
Like it, It's such it was such acalling when.
It was like banging at your door.
It was like begging to by you. It was like, girl, we need you.
Well, I think it was also I justhad this feeling of like, if you
(05:32):
don't do this, like someone elseis going to do it and you're
going to regret it. But also if you don't do this,
like this is for you. And it's something that I tell
people whenever they want to getinto something creative, whether
it's YouTube, whether it's writing, art, podcasting,
songwriting. If you are not doing it solely
for you and your passion and love at the beginning, like any
(05:54):
creative endeavour, takes so much from you that you have to
be 100% in it for the right reasons to find any kind of
success later on. Exactly.
You have to be so dedicated. You have to be so dedicated
beyond just what you think couldbe the financial gain.
Because if you're motivated by that, when the roadblocks start
(06:14):
to come up, which we probably both know from having, you know,
successful podcasts that they do.
Like, even if everyone else around you is looking at us
being like, Oh my gosh, you haveit.
You created it. You created the dream, you
created the podcast. It's like no matter how much I
feel like I've had an I made it moment, even after an I made it
moment always comes a moment of,Oh my God, what am I doing?
(06:38):
What did I get myself into? And having those doubts and
needing to continue to push forward, I genuinely believe has
to be motivated by that internaldesire of passion.
Like it has to be or else you'regoing to you're going to give
up. It's totally true.
And I think everyone at some stage should commit fully to
(06:59):
making something and to creatingsomething, a project, whatever
it is that they're proud of because you learn true
commitment and you learn what itmeans to be like, I actually
don't like there's been points where I've been like, I don't
want to do this anymore. Like this is so much work,
Especially at the beginning, I was like, this is so much work.
I was working a full time job, an intense full time job at the
(07:22):
same time. And the podcast was taking like
30 hours a week on top of already doing my full time job.
And there's just something in you that's just like, you have
no other choice. Like you have to make this and
it just drives you. And the book kind of came out of
that. So obviously the Psychology of
(07:42):
your 20s is the podcast that I've created where we talk about
the biggest things that are happening to you during this
decade and the psychology and science behind it.
And not just like opinion based science, right?
Not just like, I think. This research based.
Yeah, like we are doing peer reviewed research, we are doing
psychological theories that havebeen tested.
(08:04):
And if they haven't been tested,we say this still needs evidence
like. I love it.
I love hot girl science. I know I'm just like, there are
so many young women and young people out there who are like I,
I'm a Wellness woman and I am someone who cares about my
psychology and my brain and my life.
(08:25):
The only option for me cannot besomeone with an opinion.
Like they want scientific, intelligent, meaningful
research. And I think they also do then
want an opinion on the side and they also want someone's
feedback and advice, but they want that in a bed of something
they can trust. Exactly.
(08:47):
And I honestly am so with you there.
Like I feel like I've definitelydone like specific seasons that
have been so rooted in research.And those are always my favorite
because I just feel like the information that we're sharing,
we can have just this deep confidence behind when it's
backed by research. Yeah.
And it just makes you realize, like, oh, what I'm experiencing
(09:08):
is quite universal and human. And I think that's a very
comforting thing, especially in our 20s when it's like, no one's
timeline is the same. I always say this to people, for
the first, let's say 17 years ofyour life, the structures around
your life are most likely similar to someone else at your
age. That being school, obviously
(09:30):
some people drop out, some people don't have access to
education in in certain areas. But I would say the majority of
us, at least in that early phaseof our lives, in our childhood
years, in our teenage years. And should we know?
Yeah. And.
We know what the. End is.
And also no space. There's also no space for like
(09:50):
time, freedom and choice. And where do I spend my time
'cause like for me it was like school, like ballet or theater,
and then like another practice and homework than bed.
And it's like life was so laid out for us, there was no choice.
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And that's the thing, it's like,and you, everyone kind of has
the same goal, which is like, I'm going to graduate and then
real life starts. And then real life in your 20s,
maybe you go to college, maybe you go to university.
And then it's like, where did that structure go?
Now I'm like responsible for my own life.
And no one's talking about how hard some of these things are.
(11:41):
And no one's going to provide methe answer.
There's no textbook the way my previous studies would have
provided me with, with answers and guidelines.
And so I think that's why peoplereally are cold to the
psychology of your 20s because it's like, OK, yes, there's no
guide book, but here is like a fact sheet of information that's
(12:01):
going to make you feel comforted.
Hopefully from someone also in their 20s, you can say, yeah,
that really sucks. Like, we're not going to sugar
coat your situation ship or sugar coat your career anxiety
or sugar coat your tension with your family.
Like this is hard. It's hard.
Yeah. I love that so much because it's
like, I think a lot of people get into like comparison mode
(12:23):
and you mentioned like nobody's timelines are the same.
And it's literally crazy becauseeven friends that I literally
love who I don't even want what they have, you know, I like
admire what they have, but that's not my dream.
I don't want it. I still find myself comparing
like, you know, I live on an island, more like Country Life.
(12:44):
And it's like, but do I need to be in the city?
Do I need to be doing this? And I think getting pulled in so
many directions, especially withsocial media and, and social
media showing us what everybody has going on, it can be really
easy to compare the timelines. And it's debilitating, you know,
it's paralyzing. It makes us not want to move
(13:05):
forward because we're so stuck in our own bodies.
What would your advice be for meeven, or for anybody else
listening who relates to that? Like, what would you say?
What, what would you say? Like, because it seems like this
is something you've thought about a lot, especially just
working with so many people in their 20s, you know?
Oh, yeah. And it's the biggest issue that
I think people have, like comparison, you know, that's the
(13:27):
Angel quote. Comparison is the thief of joy.
It's also the thief of peace. It's the thief of happiness.
It's the thief of contentment. You will never be happy if you
continue to compare. But the comparing feels like
it's a prison in itself. Actually have a whole chapter in
my book exactly about this called Oh.
(13:49):
Chills. I feel like we're supposed.
To talk the paradox of choice, yeah.
The paradox of choice. Being like, yeah, I didn't come
up, what do I want? The Fig.
Tree analogy, kind of. Analogy, the Sylvia plastic tree
analogy. We are so lucky.
We have so many opportunities. It's such a blessing that is
also quite paralyzing. And there's a very famous,
(14:11):
famous study that they actually did at Stanford on jam that's
right on like strawberry jam where they went to a farmer's
market and they wanted to say, do people do better?
And are they actually happier with more or less choice?
Because obviously our intuition is to say, oh, more choice,
right? More choice, more freedom, more
(14:32):
liberation, more agency. Actually, what they found was on
the first day they went and theyhad 24 jams.
And they said, you know, they set up the store at this farmers
market and they counted how manypeople bought jam when they had
24 options the exact same time aweek later, same day, they went
back with only six jams. And they wanted to see, are more
(14:55):
people going to buy them? The numbers, the number of
people who are willing to make apurchase and we're happier with
their purchase when they only had six options compared to 24
was insanely significant. And this is what I think people
in their 20s that any decade need to know is that it's OK to
feel paralyzed by how many different paths you have through
(15:19):
life. What I need you to do is be
really selective and choose three to four that you think you
would be seriously happy with and know that you can live all
of those timelines. Truly, as someone who has
already done like three of the three of the lives I wanted to
live, like, you know what I mean?
(15:39):
Like you will find that life is actually quite long and you do
have time. Comparison will make you feel
like everything is urgent. You always need to be shifting
onto someone else's timeline because gosh, doesn't their life
look delightful whilst they're looking at you and thinking the
same thing. And I think that we think
(16:00):
comparison is quite a linear act.
Like it's almost like a ladder where there's someone on the
bottom who compares to someone one rung higher.
One rung higher it gets all the way to the top and there must be
someone at the top who is completely happy, who everyone
is envious of, who has everything.
Comparison is a circle, not a ladder.
That person who we assume is at the top is probably comparing
(16:23):
themselves to someone else who thinks they're at the bottom.
Everyone who like you are sitting there comparing yourself
to someone else who is then comparing themselves to someone
else who's comparing themselves to you.
Everyone, I believe, has something in their life.
I'm. Like taking this, I've never
heard anybody say that. Gemma, you have to understand,
(16:44):
like, there are so many times that I feel like I'm so tired of
the rhetoric that I'm seeing andlike, listening to you right now
with such just authentic, real, original ideas.
I'm just like, like, you don't know how much you telling me
this right now is changing my life.
Oh, I'm so glad it's not a ladder.
Like it is a circle. Yeah, I know when I remember.
(17:06):
I'm like, I'm just like, I've never heard that before ever.
You know that it's not very often you hear things you have
never heard before. So I just had to like stop for a
moment and be like that. Just that just changed something
in my neural pathways, I swear to God.
It's such an important thing, and I think if you're a visual
person like I in the book, I love to give as much of A visual
analogy for your thoughts as possible.
(17:29):
Because often things like comparison, things like fear,
things like jealousy, things like longing, we see them as
this very like these floating things that come down and
influence us and they're something we need to fight
against. And I think when we can
visualize them in this way that makes sense and creates A
narrative around them, they feela lot easier to manage.
(17:52):
And they're digestible. Yeah.
And can I say this, Kayla, I actually will never argue or say
that you should not compare yourself to others.
The comparison is natural. It's the negative feelings
associated with it that we need to control.
So what I always say to people is it's OK to compare and be
(18:13):
like, wow, she has so much more than me.
Her life seems so much more peaceful.
Her love story seems so much more organic than mine.
Take those statements of comparison and then I need you
to add and and wow her life is perfect and that's great for
her. Wow she has so much and so do I
(18:35):
Wow she's so successful and whatan inspiration.
One day I will be too. Like you cannot allow your
comparison to be a complete sentence and just let like the
negative emotions take over you.I love that that is such
actually amazing, actionable advice for when people kind of
get in this comparison spiral, you know, like that prison that
(18:57):
you were talking about earlier. Because it's also like, Oh my
God, their relationship is so like, great.
It looks so beautiful and peaceful.
It's like, and I have no idea what's going on.
Like actually like, I actually don't know those people's lives.
And also being like, and I also have so much love and I love
that because that's just such a great way to teach your brain
through repetition. OK, if we and add an and at the
(19:20):
end of this sentence, it gives myself an opportunity to reflect
on what is actually my truth, you know, not just like kind of
this looping programming that's continuing to speak up.
You know, it's just like, OK, and gives me a new opportunity
to reframe it all in that exact moment.
(19:40):
That is honestly, it's so beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that. But that's what it is.
It's like, it's a branch. It's like, OK.
And it's like, because if you'vehad a negative thought, like,
it's probably just going to keepgoing in that same direction
unless you turn it, unless you like take the train off the
rails to another path. So I'm glad that resonated.
With you, I honestly want to go back to something that you said.
(20:01):
You said that. Everybody in their life should
dedicate themselves to a project, some sort of like
creative endeavor because of, you know, the commitment that it
teaches. It's also what you teach
yourself, what you learn about yourself through the dedication,
through the commitment, through the process of moving through
the contractions and the expansions and the DAO and the
(20:21):
perseverance. And I'm just so curious how the
actual process of writing this book, how did it impact you
personally? Like what did it teach you about
yourself? Oh my goodness, that's such a
great question. I'm like just.
Genuinely curious. I'm like, 'cause I know whenever
I create something it teaches meso much about myself.
(20:42):
Like learning anything new and doing anything for the first
time just reveals so much to myself about who I am as well as
my blind spots as well as my doubts as well as my places of
strength. It just reveals so much to me.
So I'm so curious if any anything came up for you in the
process of writing. I'm going to begin with the
(21:03):
blind spot, actually. We can save the glamorous nature
of it. Firstly, writing a book is
really difficult. And everyone was like, it's
really difficult. And then I was like, oh wow,
they will write of course. You're like OK, but like.
Yeah, I was like, I was like, you're like, this is just going
to like pour out of me. Like love.
I like, I think about this. I talk about this every single
(21:24):
day. And I have for the past like 3
to 4 years, like there's nothingnew here.
Then I was like, Oh yes, there is like there's so much, so much
space to explore this in a completely different way.
I definitely learned that my perfectionism is my biggest
barrier to doing anything. I learned that I struggle with
(21:44):
criticism perhaps more than I realized.
I'm someone who is always, in a strange way, worked quite solo
and been accountable to myself for a lot of what I've done.
So even when I was a researcher,even when I was working in
mental health, even when I was aconsultant, I was going back
(22:05):
through it, having written this book and being like, oh, all of
those, like I never really worked in a team where I could
be criticized. And when you write a book, you
get a lot of feedback. And because writing a book.
Is from my publishers or. From publishers, from readers,
from. Yeah, just those kinds of
people. And like, this is everything to
(22:31):
you, right? Like, you've just poured your
entire soul and your heart into this thing.
And like, readers will read the book and be like, oh, wow, this
is this is there's a lot of vulnerable moments.
You know, I talk about a really terrible heartbreak in probably
too much detail. Like I talk about, you know,
mental breakdown I had. I talk about a friendship
breakup. I talk about the friendship
(22:51):
breakups. Oh yeah, the friendship
breakups. And so when it's literally, it
feels like your life story and every single piece of wisdom
that you've scraped together over the years from your lived
experience and someone's like, Idon't agree with that or this
doesn't sound great. It can be really difficult to be
like, oh, you're right. Yeah.
(23:13):
And what is like that fine line between like, like trusting the
people that you're getting the feedback from and also trusting
what you know to be true and like your, your perspective,
like what is that balance beam that you've been walking?
Well, that's the balance. It was hard to strike where I
had to be like, at what point doI stand up for myself and my
ideas and say I'm committed to this?
(23:34):
And at what point do I accept that these people have been
doing this for a long time and are very, very intelligent?
And also, I'm not as loyal to the things I've put in this book
as I am Like, of course, I thinkit's great.
I wrote it like, I thought this was important to put in writing.
Yeah. And so I actually, I found that
(23:54):
it was the first, like, draft. I agreed with a lot of what they
said because I was like, I'm just going to give it to the
experts. But the second draft, I was
like, no, this is important. This story is important.
It might. There was one story where they
were like, oh, this kind of makes you sound not particularly
likeable, and I was. Like, what is the story?
Can we know a little? Yeah, a little sneaky.
(24:15):
Not the full story, but like. There's a couple.
Well, there was 2 actually. One of them was removed mainly
just because of the other personinvolved.
I was like, ah, it's not really fair.
It's kind of both our stories. And it was a story.
It was a similar story of a friendship breakup where I had
done the wrong thing. And it was probably like 4-4 or
five years ago. Four years, four or five years
(24:36):
ago. Yeah.
And I was in the wrong and I wasa really bad friend and I was
selfish. And I was just in this mindset
of just numbness for many consequences because I was on a
rampage, right? And I talked about that and how
being a good friend involves taking accountability.
(24:57):
And sometimes you need to actually be humble in order to
repair something. And they were like, you don't
sound very likeable here. And I was like, yeah, but that's
the point. Like that's the.
Point. You're like, I'm a person in
progress. Yeah, you're like I had.
You're like this. Is good to get the point of.
The book like I am like making mistakes and learning and I
mean, that's so I'm glad you kept like kind of like, yeah,
(25:20):
you walk that balance beam and you're like, OK, I'll keep this
one, but I'll take this one out,you know, as like, 'cause it, I
think the all or nothing mindsetis what really holds us back and
just being like, OK, how can I find like the middle way, the
middle path in this? But I love that you also like
stuck your guns and like kept one of them in.
Well, the other one is about ourrelationship.
(25:40):
And you know what? I'm going to be totally
vulnerable. Like the person that I wrote
this about the story has not read it.
We have not spoken in a long time.
But I know he's aware that the book is coming out and I know
he's aware that there are sections about him.
But I think I was quite kind in,in my assessment and being like,
this was this relationship that was terrible, objectively
(26:03):
terrible. But it wasn't just your fault.
It was my fault as well. And I was, you know, I was
repeating history and repeating patterns and relationships for
these very reasons. And these are the psychological
reasons that I've come to appreciate what part of a hidden
part of our story that we never fully acknowledged.
(26:26):
So I think the, my main thing when writing this book was like,
I'm not going to sit here and belike, I am this perfect example
of a 20 something who has everything together and who has
never made a mistake and came out of the gates in a perfect
relationship with perfect friends and knew who what her
purpose was. Like, no, this has been trial
and this has been trial and error.
(26:47):
And it will be for you as well, which that's beautiful.
It's refreshing. That's so refreshing and it's
going to make so many people feel seen.
And you should be so proud of yourself for being willing to
exist in that vulnerability of being like, I have made
mistakes, you know? And you know, I even think with
like the podcast, I always find those are the episodes that get
the best feedback when I'm just so fucking honest and
(27:09):
vulnerable. Not going to lie.
The vulnerability hangover is real, though.
I don't know if you experienced that, but like sometimes I'm
like, like, I like create something and then I put it out
there and I'm like, OK, I don't even know if I can like look now
because I'm like what I just shared with all these, not even
the strangers don't even bother me.
It's like my mom, my ex friends seeing something like that's
(27:32):
that's the personal thing that triggers the vulnerability
hangover for me where I'm like, Oh my gosh, like people really
just get a full glance. But I think that's what, you
know, makes people so drawn to you, you know, specifically like
is because you're willing to be that person and it takes
bravery. You know it.
Not everybody can do. I mean, not that not everybody
(27:54):
can do it, but not everybody hasthe willingness to do it.
What was the last time you had avulnerability hangover from
something you made? Oh my gosh, literally I just
released like a podcast today that I feel like I'm.
Like I just saw that come out. I'm so excited.
Vulnerability hangover just because I think for me, one of
(28:16):
my like biggest insecurities when it comes to how other
people perceive me is obviously like I do have this like light
and positivity and like, you know, but then I feel like I'm
equally matched with like the ability to go deep and dark and,
and low and sad. And, and I just think sometimes
I'm afraid to like reveal that part of myself to people, like
(28:37):
specifically my audience. I'm like, I don't want you to
know that sometimes I have trouble taking care of myself
and doing the bare minimum and like folding my clothes and like
making myself food. Like, like, but I feel like it's
so important for people to hear that part and then also hear
like, OK, how did I move throughit?
Because I've been really realizing that all like the
(28:59):
doubt is just really trying to teach me how to trust.
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because I'm actually not a trusting person.
(30:04):
So honestly, today is a little bit of a vulnerability hangover.
Honestly, it was last night. It was like when I was ending
and posting and watching it backand I was like, I can't believe
I'm going to share this. I was like, I can't believe my
mom's going to watch this. I was like, you know, just
little things like that. And yeah, but I'm honestly
really grateful for like, other creatives in the space, like
(30:26):
doing that as well, because it inspires me and makes me feel
stronger to share the more vulnerable parts of myself when
I see other people doing it. It's like that permission slip.
And I always just felt like you were one of those people that
did it for me so honestly. Thank you so much for that.
Oh my Lord, that's such a nice because I feel like I I really
get where you're coming from, but I I like posting a video.
(30:50):
Well, not a video, an episode last year about like how I had a
mental breakdown and we weren't talking about here.
Like you can go and listen to itbecause it's like, not really
what we're we're talking about. But I like remember, I cannot
listen back to that. But I was also debating whether
to repost it up until the minutethat I pressed publish because I
(31:13):
was like, I'm about to become a very unstable narrator for a lot
of people. Totally, especially when people
look to us and they want us to like feel like this stable
force. And it's like, oh, I don't want
to like let you down, but it's the truth is like.
I'm depressed. It's fucking messy.
Like, yeah, I'm like, I I struggle with my mental health
and that's why I have gotten into this space because I felt
(31:36):
like like I needed help when I was younger and I wish I knew
more. And I'm sure it's similar for
you. Like what is your purpose
around? I mean, just like the bigger
picture of sharing about psychology and sharing about
science and sharing about mentalhealth, Like what is that bigger
picture? Why for you?
I think the why is very similar to yours.
(31:58):
And it's like, well, if I'm someone has to be willing to
talk about it, why not me? And that is actually, if you're
thinking, if you, if you struggle with imposter syndrome
comparison, motivation towards abig goal, it's the easiest
question to ask yourself, why not me?
(32:18):
Because you know, if you've had lived experience, you were
exactly what someone else with lived experience probably needs
to say. I also think that I've always
been so fascinated. The reason I was so drawn to it
was I was always so fascinated by my own brain and how I would
how I was reacting and behaving,but also how other people
(32:39):
behaved and other people reacted.
And I was always like, why? Why do we as humans do things?
And why do we as humans act so irrationally?
Like what's up with that? Literally it's like why am I so
reactive right now? Yeah, like why am I just
responding the same like withouteven consciously choose like
(33:00):
choosing my response? Yeah, like, why am I sabotaging
my relationship? That's perfect.
Why am I so sad about this like thing that I promised myself I
would, I was over? Like, how come I how come I know
I'm not meant to be with this person or that this life or this
opportunity isn't for me and yetI'm still mourning it.
Like humans are full of contradictions.
(33:21):
And I always say like the hardest things to appreciate and
get over as humans are when 2 truths are equal, are when two
things are equally true. Like back to that.
Yeah, the, the contradiction. Like back to that love analogy,
you know, I know this person is bad for me, but I love them.
Two truths, both equally valid. Or you know, I know that I want
(33:46):
to make more money, but I'm so cold to this thing where I'm not
making money. 2 truths, both valid, you know?
I know that me and this person had a me and my parent or me and
my sibling had a complicated relationship, but I still want
to repair it. Like I just feel like there's.
Or it's like if somebody's not like somebody's not in my life
anymore, and I know they're not supposed to be in my life, but I
(34:07):
still think about them and I still miss them.
Yeah, human being is a full of contradictions and irrational
thinking. And I think that's where, like
my drive to understand psychology came from because I
was like, surely someone's got an answer here, like.
Yeah. So what, what give us like a
little like, do you have anything off the top of your
head like when it comes to navigating these contradictions
based on psychology? Like, like what would you like?
(34:30):
Do you have any kind of like actual techniques or just like
anything for people to reflect on and take with them 'cause I
think the contradictions for me personally is like kind of drive
me wild sometimes, you know, especially as like a conscious
thinker. Sometimes I'm like, just wish I
wasn't just such a thought daughter, you know, I just wish
I wasn't such a girl. But I'm like, why do I have so
(34:50):
many thoughts and why do I look at everything with such
curiosity and like dive so deep into things?
But then I'm also so grateful for that part of myself because
it lights me up to do it. But also, sometimes I'm like, it
must be nice, yeah. Oh my God, the classic
overthinker like stereotype of like, what does it mean?
I remember like my, my boyfriendwas like, I don't know, he like
(35:15):
asked me the other day. He's like, when was the last
time you weren't thinking about anything?
And I was like, that's an option.
Like you did not like that kind of programming.
Like that's some people can do that.
It's like there's a quote in Mean Girls, not Mean Girls out
New Girl with Smith, which we love, where Schmidt is like, you
(35:37):
just walk around all day like thinking about everyone else's
feelings. And she was like, yeah, of
course I do. What else am I meant to think
about? And he was like, that must be
exhausting. And she's like, well, and that's
how I feel sometimes. I'm sure you feel that way as
well. Definitely especially like with
my partner. And would you like, have you
found like supporting evidence about like how men think versus
(35:58):
how women think? No, it actually, I don't think
it has anything to do with gender specifically.
I think it's more like socialization, but it also comes
down to personality. And this, you know, if you're
thinking about the big 5 personality traits and it's a
simple way to think about this. There's definitely a more
complicated, complex explanation, but essentially
people like you and I are high in what is called neuroticism,
(36:23):
which is not a very fun term, but.
Just neurotic baddies. Honestly.
We're like. Neurotic baddies.
Yeah, like I'll. Speak it like.
Yeah, that's that could that would be a great podcast.
If anyone wants to start a new anew podcast, Neurotic Baddies
would be an amazing name for onefor.
Over thinkers. Yeah, exactly.
Neuroticism just means high levels of over thinking, high
(36:47):
levels of anxiety. And so it's freaking rough.
And I've also had the same thought process recently.
We were talking about this before of like, wow, what would
it be like to just shut my brainoff for a little bit?
What would it be like to just not overthink everything, to
just not need an answer to everything as well?
(37:09):
I think when you're dealing withthe what if, what if, what if my
brain was better, would that mean my life with my brain was
different? Surely I'd be happier, Surely
everything would be better. You do need to just remember
that every floor of faults that you see in your personhood, that
(37:32):
is actually also an asset and that has also gifted you access
to things that other people are wanting.
And again, it comes back to the comparison thing.
But one of my best friends, her name is Aaron, we talk about
this a lot. And she's like, yes, I am.
Yes, I overthink everything. Yes, I care too much.
But I would much rather that than caring too little.
(37:53):
I'd much rather be a deep thinker than be someone who
doesn't think at all. You know, it's, it's kind of
cognitive reframing and being like, what?
How can I turn what feels like suffering, what feels like
difficulty like, into an asset? Like we wouldn't have podcasts
if we weren't neurotic. Literally no.
It's so true. It's like, honestly, even though
sometimes it can be so frustrating and it can feel
(38:16):
debilitating, I do feel like especially with the tools that
I've developed in my early 20s to like support my anxiety and
to support the, the speed at which my mind moves.
I honestly wouldn't change it for the world because I, and I
do love my brain. Like I love that.
I love that she creates so many connections and she's always
(38:37):
like people bopping to all thesedifferent things.
And it's something that makes me, me.
And honestly, I love that we're doing this reframe 'cause I
actually wouldn't change it for the world thinking about it like
I wouldn't want. That or it's just like, it's
like having, I don't know, it's like any relationship.
Like I know you've been with your partner for a long time.
(39:00):
I've had, you know, we've all got had friends that we've had
for a long time. We've known our siblings and our
parents for a long time. There is something about each of
those people that you find difficult, like let's be totally
real here. And there's something they find
difficult about you. But All in all, like you are
still one of their favorite people in the world and you are
still incredible and the light of their life like 90% of you
(39:26):
they love. But there is always going to be
that little part that frustratesthem or that irritates them and
the same for you towards those people.
Like why can't we have that nuanced relationship with
ourself as well and expect imperfection from ourselves and
be OK with that? Well, expect imperfection is so
beautiful because I feel like, yeah, 1 of I've realized in my
(39:50):
mental processes over the last couple months is like one of my
biggest like barriers, like where yours is like perfection.
Mine is expectation, like the expectation of like how how
other people should be like in my relationship.
But then I texted my best friendthe other day and I was like,
you know, I think with my partner, with Hobbs, I honestly
(40:10):
just have so many expectations of him because I'm just actually
like trying to reposition. All the heavy expectations that
I've had on myself my entire life and I'm trying to like not
put them on myself. And I had that like just full
honest moment with myself and itliterally immediately reframed
everything for me. And I was like, oh, it's not
that he's like constantly messing up because he's actually
(40:31):
not. He's like, actually this
amazing, beautiful partner who loves me so much and has been
there for me through everything.It's that I have this program of
expectation, expectation and letdown.
And you know, I, I used to thinkmy expectations like protected
me, you know, because I was like, oh, it makes my life good
because when I had the expectations, I would work hard
(40:51):
to like make everything go right.
And it's like getting really comfortable with the
imperfection has been the process that I've been in that
has been shifting everything forme.
It's liberating. It's truly liberating.
I'm so glad you found. That everything you've said
today has like, I feel like there's been 3-4 main points
that I'm like going to be I, I knew in my fucking soul when I
(41:14):
stepped into this podcast today,I was like, she's about to say
some things that are really going to impact me in a positive
way that I really needed to hear.
And I just feel so incredibly grateful.
Like we literally touched on nothing that I planned.
And I love that with every part.20 minutes of just chaos.
No, actually, it was actually organized chaos.
(41:35):
I do. I actually think we had like
there was like 3 significant chapters.
So I'm proud of us for like staying in the flow And where
can everybody find, first of all, you, but most importantly,
your book person in progress because it's coming out so soon
where I I think I want to release this podcast next week.
So it'll be coming out in 2 daysfrom now, right?
(41:57):
Or no? Yeah, that yeah, yeah.
And OK, so preorder like tell uswhere can everybody?
Find it, you can preorder it wherever you get books, and I'm
fairly sure it's actually on sale right now.
Even if you just want to go check it out, I'm sure Kayla
will leave a little link in the description.
(42:20):
I am asking people to not buy iton Amazon.
If you can buy it local, that would be great.
I also understand that some people.
Yeah. But I also get that some people
are like in rural locations or it is more affordable for them.
So I would honestly prefer if you know you even got it from
your library rather than gettingit on Amazon.
I'm. Sure.
(42:40):
Honestly I love that though because it's aligned to your
values which I respect 100%. And I know it's, it's just a
way, but yeah, it's out very, very soon.
Kayla, you don't even have a copy yet because.
I need my coffee. So I know you are.
Going to devour it. You're on like the advanced list
(43:00):
and I'm like, get her the book. It's like, you know that thing
in Devil Wears Pride of she's like, get me home, like get me
on the plane. No, the boss bitch and you
coming out, get out of the book.No, I'm going to devour and eat
that book from the beginning to the end.
I'm just so incredibly excited. What would be like?
OK, so the process of this book,you know, you're now in your mid
(43:22):
20s, you're about to be in this expansion of becoming an off
author, stepping into your dream.
Like what would be the thing that you want to say or you have
been saying to your younger self?
Like in this process, what wouldyou want to tell younger you in
this moment as you're stepping into this expansion?
I wasn't planning on doing this,but honestly, I do this with my
(43:43):
friends. Like whenever, like they have
something big going on, I'm always like, OK, what would
younger you say? And can we just like put little
fairy blessings on everything that you're releasing?
I honestly think she would be soexcited.
She would be. She would be pumped.
Like I found my journal from when I was like 4 and I used to
(44:04):
write like little songs, like I don't know, in like little poems
and stuff. Probably like four to seven.
I can't remember how, but it wasreally, really cute.
And it was like bucket list. And it was like become an
author. And then like, wow, I like 20
years later, like I take that off for you.
I would just say to her, like everything you're going to go
(44:24):
through is really important. Even when it feels difficult,
it's really important for you togo through and to have hard,
challenging moments because it will feel terrible, it will feel
restricting, it will feel at times incredibly traumatic, but
it brings you to ultimately a future that you're very happy
(44:47):
with and that is very, very kindto you.
So that's what I would tell her.That is so fucking beautiful.
Thank you. And that's such like the
reminder so many people probablyneeded to hear today, which is
always like my prayer that I askfor when it comes to the podcast
and having guests on. It's just like may whatever come
through like help somebody and Ijust feel like you sharing that
(45:08):
definitely helps somebody. I just have this feeling.
So thank you so much for coming on, guys.
Everything is going to be linkedbelow.
Psychology of your 20's, the podcast, person in progress, the
book and all dramas, socials. So obviously a lot of you
probably know her, but if you don't like you need to, you need
to be following her because she's literally one of my
favorite creators on the Internet just truly because of
(45:31):
her integrity. I think when I look at you and
just especially everything you're doing with combining the
relatability of all of this and the humanness of all of this
paired with the research and paired with the science, like
that just screams integrity to me.
And that's why I always just love following you.
So go check out everything that she's doing.
Guys, get that book. We can maybe we should book club
(45:54):
it in the soul and progress community.
What do you guys think? Should we all book club it
together? That would be so cute.
Would that be epic? All the little skinny dippers.
We're all reading your book together.
If that happens, let me know I'll make I'll I'll get you guys
some some nice crisp sign copiesthat would.
Be crazy. OK, Actually, I think we are
(46:17):
going to do book club next month.
So that would be like so sick and then we meet up and then we
like talk about it. Yeah, we're doing book club and
pen pals next month. So that's like kind of.
You are always. How cute is pen of shit?
You were doing the coolest shit.I was.
I was like a little pen pal series and it was the best.
You're going to have a lot of fun with it.
It's so much fun. I'm.
So excited. I'm so excited.
Thank you so much for coming on.What is the last thing that you
(46:39):
want to leave the Skinny Dipperswith today?
And then we'll sign off. Oh.
My God, what is the last thing? We talked about so many
different things, you know. Oh, I just think the last thing
I would want to leave you with is just go and have some fucking
fun today. I don't know why, but that's
just what I'm being called to say.
(47:00):
There's so much that you should do and that you could do.
Scrap it. Go and have Go and sit in the
park. Go and get a lamington.
Oh, you guys don't have lamingtons?
Go and get a lamingtons. Oh, it's like a sponge cake with
chocolate and coconut on the outside.
It's like OK. So Jelly.
It's like an Australian thing. Yeah, I realize I'm going to go
to get a Lamingtons, that's why.I need it.
Go get a cancel everything and live your joy honestly just for
(47:22):
a day. It honestly is soul revival.
It's the best. That's what I'm calling.
I mean, cool to say today and thanks for.
Having I love that. Thank you so much.
Bye, guys.
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