Everyone Has a Breaking Point: Melissa's Story of Resilience and Recovery

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
If you got a problem?
Lottie's got the answer?
She won't sugarcoat them?
Cause it's Lottie and Lottiedon't lie?
Cause it's Lottie and Lottiedon't lie?
Hello to Lottie don't lie.

(00:31):
It is Samantha and Melissa.
Welcome.
Welcome back.
How are you?
I'm doing good.
It's been a wild couple ofweekends over here.
How about you?
You?
I'm good.
I'm good.
You actually have, like, a fun.
You had a really fun weekendthe other, what, two weekends ago?

(00:53):
Yeah, Mother's Day weekend.
You guys might remember Vital.
I went to go watch one of hershows, and Melissa couldn't make
it.
So some of my besties came toto support Arya and Britney and Courtney.
And you would think that whenall of us get together, some real
shit's gonna go down, right?

(01:14):
Like, we're gonna get into trouble.
Well, our first night there,actually, we got into Nashville.
We got our nails done, we atebarbecue, and then we just looked
at each other, and we're like,let's get matching tattoos.
And so we go to the tattooshop and somehow end up with matching
dinosaur, like, cute littledinosaur tattoos with holding knives.

(01:35):
I don't know why or how.
They were just dinosaurs.
That's what we should do.
And we were all sober.
We did not have any alcohol.
Whose idea was it to get amurder dinosaur?
And was.
What was the reason behind it?
They were just hardcore, like,murder dinosaur.
It's so cute.
It's so funny.
And I'm like.
My thought is more of like,how about two of us get a slice of
bread, like, cartoon, youknow, with arms and legs, and one

(01:58):
get a jar of peanut butter,and one get a jar of jelly, and we
can be like peanut butterjelly sandwiches.
And I was like, that soundsfun and cute.
And they're like, murder dinosaurs.
I like what he did.
Yes.
Yeah.
Courtney, because she works inthe school system, she, instead of
a knife, has a flower.
And I was like.

(02:18):
I mean, I was sober.
Why didn't I think to put afreaking microphone dinosaur, like,
instead of a knife?
Like, so cute.
I don't know what I was thinking.
And then after we got ourmatching tattoos, we got back to
our apartment at 10pm weliterally snuggled under our blankets
in the living room and allread books until we fell asleep.
And that was our first nightin Nashville.

(02:40):
But the next day, I'm notgoing to share quite what we got
into, but we got intosomething, and we came back to the
room.
We were like, what the Fuckdid we do?
And we had a few drinks, andthen I.
We just look around the roomat each other, and I go, I'm gonna
go get my nipples pierced.
And so we all, with littleshots in our purse, go across the

(03:03):
street, and we all get ournipples pierced.
And that.
That was Nashville.
Matching tattoos.
Sam came home, she called her,and Courtney called me on the way
home, and she's like, so wouldyou have done it, Melissa?
And I was like, absolutely not.
Oh, you would have.
You would have.
Especially if you went to the.

(03:24):
What the fuck?
Show that we went to.
I wouldn't.
I wouldn't.
The way for me to decompressis not to go inflict pain on my little
nipples.
Well, it's.
It's a story.
It was.
Yeah, it's a story.
We call it Mom's Gone Wild.
And it's like, a story.
We really didn't go wild, butwe did come home with odd stuff.

(03:45):
I want to go tattoo with y' all.
Y.
You should get one of themurder dinosaurs with us.
I would.
Yeah, I could put, like, a.
I would put a flower.
Courtney did.
And I would do a T.
Rex.
Like, Courtney, too, because Ihave short arms.
Apparently, she does, too.
Yeah.
So that happened.

(04:06):
And then I thought you guyswould really appreciate this fail,
so I'm just gonna go into that.
So we got this camper trailer,and Andrew helped me to go get it.
He drove me and Nora, like,two hours to go pick it up.
It took three hours to get itback home.
And we get it dropped in ouryard and situated.
And it's a rehab project, sowe gotta tear it apart and, you know,

(04:29):
rebuild it.
And I.
The next day, Nora and I werethe only ones home.
The kids were still at school.
Simon's at work, and we.
I take Nora into the camper soI can take some measurements, because
I wanted to start measuringout some of the finishings that I
want to put in in there.
And the camper door shuts asit does, and Nora and I are hanging

(04:50):
out in the camper.
I'm doing my measurements, andthen we're ready to get out.
And I go to open the camperdoor, and the, like, handle breaks.
But I couldn't tell if thehandle breaks.
Cause I couldn't remember howyou get out of the camper in the
first place.
And so I'm sitting here, like,just aimlessly wiggling all these
notches and turning all thesethings and pulling on all the things
on the door, and I'm like,what the hell?
It won't open.

(05:10):
And so then Nora startsfreaking out, and I'm like, it's
fine.
It's fine.
This is adventure.
It's fine.
And she's not fine.
She.
She is in, like, catastrophic mode.
Like, she thinks we're aboutto die for some reason.
And so I'm like, okay, give mea second.
And I try to call Simon.
He doesn't answer.
I call him again.
He doesn't answer, call again.
And I'm like, crap.
Okay.
So I just text him 91 1.

(05:31):
And then I was like, you call Andrew?
Oh, he texted me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because I was like, maybe hisphone is just like, maybe he's just
ignoring it because he's in anappointment, but it's still on, but
he had it on airplane mode, sohe wasn't getting the messages.
And so then I decided to callAndrew, and I call Andrew.
I'm like, hey, I think we'relocked in the trailer, and it's,

(05:51):
like, 90 degrees outside.
And so Andrew's like, oh, hold on.
Let me call you on video.
And so I get on video withAndrew, and.
And I'm showing him the nod,and I was like, I don't know which
one of these opens the door,but none of them are opening the
doors, so I don't know.
And, you know, Nora's just screaming.
And he goes, okay, well, maybewe need to get someone to try and
open it from the outside.

(06:11):
And I was like, okay, yeah,all right.
You're probably right.
We can try that.
And, I mean, Nora and I wereprobably locked in the trailer for
45 minutes.
And then Amelia gets home fromschool, and I'm like, hello, Amelia.
Help us.
So she comes over to the trailer.
Well, actually, she calls me,and she goes, are you in the trailer?
Someone's calling you to the trailer?

(06:32):
That's adorable.
She's like, I know not to goto weird vehicles and get in them.
And I was like, yes, it's me.
Like, can you open the door?
We're stuck.
And she comes over, and sheopens the door, and I'm like, oh,
thank God.
And so Nora and I get out, andthen we.
You know, we get out, we shutthe camper door, and Amelia goes,

(06:52):
did you try the other door?
No.
Like, yeah, there's a second door.
And I know she, oh, no, that's.
And I was like, oh, man, Ifeel so really stupid.
And so I tried it, and sureenough, that door works just fine.
If I just would haveremembered that there was a door
in the bedroom of the camper,and I felt really dumb until I went,

(07:14):
you know what?
I had a freaking toddlerscreaming in my ear, freaking out.
Andrew was with me when Iinspected it and bought it.
He, too, inspected and wasthere with me when I bought it.
He should have been like, didyou try the second door?
So I'm gonna say that Andrewfailed worse than I did.
Oh, no, I'm sticking to it.

(07:38):
Wow, that's a good story, Emelia.
She's like, am I the only saneone in this family?
Did you try the second door?
Like, no.
Stop it with your common sense.
That's adorable.

(07:58):
Melissa, I know that you hadan unfortunate event, but it's really
important to share because itwould be so helpful, especially since
we have conversations aroundsafety about domestic violence and
stuff.
And it's really not even afail on you, but I feel like it's
a fail in general.
That's really important.

(08:19):
Yeah.
So, as you guys know, I am a.
Well, I filed for divorce.
My attorney told me that she would.
As soon as the judge signedthe papers, the guy who is supposed
to serve Brett was supposed tocall me and say, hey, I'm serving
him this day, this time, sothat I would know what's going on.

(08:42):
And I had planned this wholetime, like, to give Brett a heads
up, because I think, one.
It's only fair to not, like,have to be sideswiped with something
like that.
And I really.
He is kind of in a veryemotional and sensitive state since
I've left, and I didn't wantto surprise him with it.
So I was going to be like,hey, you know, in the next couple

(09:04):
days, you're going to beserved with.
I filed for divorce.
So suddenly, one night thisweek, I get a text from Brett, and
he's just really, really,really upset, saying some pretty
awful things.
And then he says, I just gotthe divorce thing, and now I have
to spend tons of money tofigure out how much you're gonna,

(09:25):
like, try to screw me over with.
And I was just like, wait,what is going on?
And it was late at night.
And so I didn't respond yet.
Cause I wanted to talk to theattorney, my attorney first.
So I called her the next day,first thing, and she's like, we know
we're waiting on the judge tosign the paper still.
So, like, I can promise you,we did not serve him.

(09:47):
And so I was just.
So I texted Brett back, and Iwas just like, what are you talking
about?
He said, I got the divorce thing.
And I was like, what divorce thing?
And he just kind of Was being very.
He was being very elusive.
And so then finally it cameout that some attorney that was looking
for a buck, I guess, goes onthe state website, like.

(10:07):
And you have to make anaccount to, like, go on there.
It's a thing.
And he looks at all the peoplewho have recently filed and he goes
and contacts their exes.
I think it's disgusting.
It really, really upset mebecause, like, what if I was in a
situation where I wasn't outof the home and he was abusive?
I'm gonna say Brett is notphysically abusive and never has

(10:29):
been to me.
But.
It'S just ridiculous that somebody.
It's like a freaking ambulancechaser would go and do something
like that just to make some money.
He knows that Brett's in avolatile state.
Probably all the people thathe contacts, he knows that.

(10:50):
And he knows, like, if he can,like, stir them up and get them all
worried and scared, he canmake money.
So I'm pretty upset.
It is Memorial Weekend, sohappy Memorial Day, everybody.
So I'm waiting till.
Yeah.
Tomorrow, Tuesday to call theattorney and just give her a heads
up.
And I feel like something likethat should be illegal.

(11:12):
I mean, we do a lot of workwith domestic violence, I feel like.
And a lot of, you know,acknowledgement towards it and why
I've never heard that youfiled for divorce and someone could
find out and then contact your.
The person you're filing against.
Like, that could be sodangerous for someone.
Yeah, it could.
I mean, he's a lawyer, so heshould know the rules, so I guess

(11:33):
it's not illegal.
That's.
That's a joke.
That's a joke.
So I was.
I'm going to talk to hertomorrow and just see, like, if there's
anything I can do.
And what would.
What would a woman do if she'swanting to file now?
Now she's even more scared to.
Right.
Because something like thiscould happen.
So I do know that yourattorney wants to be on the podcast,

(11:53):
so maybe we can have her onand talk about situation a little
bit.
Yeah, not your situation, but,like, that type of situation.
Like, absolutely.
100%.
Oh, yeah.
She's seen some things.
She's been doing this foryears, but, yeah, we'll find out.
I'll get some more informationand come back.
Yeah, for sure.
To the pod.

(12:14):
So, yeah, that happened.
Fun stuff.
Well, at least we canhopefully help someone with it.
So.
Yeah.
Keep someone safe.
Today is our last episode forMental Health Awareness Month, and
it is your story.
It is.
I'm a little nervous Because Ihaven't heard it at all since we

(12:36):
recorded.
I didn't have a super big planwhen I went in on how to tell the
story.
I think, actually, speaking offails, I think my fail probably was
that I had told you, Sam, thatI wanted to talk about my miscarriages,
but I didn't really talk toyou about how.
I also wanted to talk about mywhole mental health journey.

(12:57):
And so I feel like you thoughtI was jumping around a little bit.
You were worried about time,which I freaked you out about time
because I.
Didn'T get to the one part of.
The story in time.
And so I don't know how it'sgonna come across as the recording
guys.
I don't know.
I feel like we're gonna findout together.

(13:17):
Well, you know, what isn'tlike, don't most of us have, like,
ADHD and anxiety and stuff?
And I feel like this is aperfect depiction of what it may
end up being like.
And that's also mental health.
Well, thank you, thank you,thank you for that.
And also, I forgot to say, me.
Being paranoid of like, wait,wait, we got.
We gotta be on time.
And, you know, my little.

(13:39):
You're talking about you.
No, no, you're good.
I mean, you were like, are wegonna tell the things she came here
to tell?
And I was like, well, wait, Ireally wanted to tell everything.
And so it was just failedcommunication on my part.
But also, I wanted to pointout I'm very excited because we have
the glorious and not elusive.

(14:01):
We talk about her every month,every week.
Every day.
She joined us on the podcastbecause, yeah, she's been through
a lot of my past with me andseen it happen.
So I just kind of wanted that,like, extra support to help me tell
my story and.
And it was really cool.
And she's also.
It is cool to hear her likeback of it.

(14:24):
So.
Yeah, and it was cool becausethere was a couple times when or
at least once that she said something.
I was like, oh, I don'tremember it.
I did not remember it that way.
And then also getting hertherapeutic insight.
She didn't therapize me.
Cause that wouldn't be ethical.
But she definitely had someinsight and some helps for people
going through some of the same stuff.
So what's also, like,interesting is that after my episode,

(14:47):
I can hear a toddler after myepisode came out, Simon listened
to it and he actually came tome after he listened to it and he
had gotten really emotionaland he was like, you.
It's.
He was like, it's crazy.
Not crazy.

(15:07):
He said, it was interesting tohear me give my regulations of what
had happened.
And he was just reallyemotional because he was like, that's
not even the half of it.
He was like, you.
You don't.
He's like, it's crazy what youdon't remember.
I mean, I understand what youdon't remember.
And he was like, it was.
It was devastating.
It was a lot.

(15:28):
It was hard.
Yeah.
Traumatic.
Yeah.
He was like, it was very traumatic.
And you did not depict it as.
As traumatic as it was.
And I was like, well, I reallytried to just say what I remember,
and that's what I remember.
And so I.
At some point, maybe we'llhave him on to talk about the full
spectrum and what it was liketo have when you have the full memory

(15:49):
of what was going on.
Yeah.
Yeah, that'll be interesting.
So you're gonna hear ustowards the end go, oh, we forgot
about this, and end abruptly.
I have no idea how far.
How far you guys will hear,but you might hear that.
And that happened.
If it doesn't.
If it doesn't get it edited.
Yeah.
All right.
Enjoy our last episode formental health awareness and Happy

(16:15):
Memorial Day.
Happy Memorial Day.
Oh, I will add, be gentle withme, because I get real vulnerable.
You do.
Of course they're going to be gentle.
All right, so do you want toremind everyone who we have with

(16:37):
us today?
Today?
Yes, I do.
It is the one and only Melissa Walker.
Not the one that we mention inevery episode.
Yeah.
Oh, that's right.
She's like, oh, no, no, seriously.
One day that I was.
I was sick, and I, like, spentthe whole day laying in bed catching
up on Yalls podcast.

(16:58):
I was like, is this supposedto, like.
Wait, what did you say?
Is this supposed to be, what, this.
Much of an ego boost,listening to my friends?
Oh, absolutely.
Please take it.
That is so funny.
I love it.
No, but seriously, everyone,like, anyone, if we're like, what's

(17:19):
your favorite episode?
Or what episode meant the mostto you?
They're always like, thatepisode with the therapist, Melissa
Walker, because there were,like, actual resources and tangible
things that, like, we actuallylearned and could utilize.
Yeah.
So actually, one of mypersonal friends, close friends from
high school, she was like, no, I.
I didn't realize I hadpostpartum depression, like, really,

(17:40):
really bad.
And because of that episode, Ilearned that you can search for a
therapist like that, you know,and how to find one that's comfortable
for you.
And she was like, I was ableto find one that way.
So.
Yeah.
Oh, I'm so glad.
Yeah.
I mean, not yay for thepostpartum, but yay that she was
able to.
Because that's one of thethings that mental health is like

(18:03):
this big ambiguous thing andpeople hear about therapy, but there
are all these likemisconceptions and every TV show
ever has terrible portrayalsof unethical, poor therapists and
when they're good, they turnout to be the villain.
Yeah.

(18:23):
Well, I don't know.
I feel like in the newergeneration it's becoming very more
normal in actually whateveryone doesn't.
I haven't technically releasedit yet, but I'm sure you guys may
have heard by time this drops,but I'm getting licensed in RTT therapy
and my goal is to use that andteach schools that this needs to

(18:45):
be part of the educational system.
Like we shouldn't be 30 yearsold learning about attachment styles
and how to add affirmationsand how that can really affect our
day to day life.
And just like all these likelittle tidbits that we should be
taught in school.
So my goal is, once I getlicensed is we're gonna get this
in schools one way or the other.
Yeah, it's so cool.

(19:06):
So I, I just have to say she'sactually even speaking with somebody
who, who is part of theprogram that she's gonna go to, who
has done it in over in uk.
Okay.
But yeah, I have not evenheard of this.
So this is like a license that.
Like I will not be a therapistin general.

(19:27):
Like I didn't, I didn't gothrough all the like schooling.
This is a therapist licensedin this program.
So basically it's like ahypnosis type of let's contact your
subconscious, go to the rootcause of like what has stemmed this
negativity thought or thislimited self belief or whatever and
then reframe that mind and soyou're solving it from the subconscious

(19:52):
to come out.
And you can do that withouttheir licensing.
Me and hypnosis, we have to gothrough like a business course.
We have to go through, what'sit called, like when you go to the
doctor.
Hipaa.
We have to go through like aHIPAA certificate.
Certificate thing or course.
And.

(20:12):
Yeah, like what a six month program?
It's a ten month program.
I can hear you.
You're like, this doesn'tsound legit.
I, I have, I have questions,but I'm excited for you.
But because this is releasing,this episode, we'll be dropping like
the mental health month.
This is excited to kind oftalk about some mental health journeys

(20:35):
that we've been through.
Yeah, I say we, but I'm moretalking about myself.
We're going to talk about me today.
We are.
But, you know, now that youmentioned that my story will have
already been released.
The one who taught us about rtt.
Yeah, she will have alreadybeen released.
That's true.
It all fits.
It's very interesting.
It's very.

(20:55):
It's somewhat akin to emdr.
Have you heard of rtt?
Okay, yeah.
What's the neat.
What's Rabid Transitional therapy?
Oh, wait, did you say it'sfrom the uk?
Because I do Google somethingrecently and maybe it was that somebody
asked me if I had heard of it and.
I.
Marissa Pierre is the creator.

(21:17):
Who?
It was a guy.
I thought, oh, there's two.
A guy created RRT and then afemale created rtt.
Okay.
Are they the same?
Just like, different names?
Similar.
I think I looked at the RRP website.
That one is what licensedprofessionals like will go through

(21:38):
and it is studied to help inintense trauma, ptsd, like veterans
type stuff.
RTT is a little less of that.
Like having to be already alicensed professional.
Okay, interesting.
Yeah.
Anyways, I want to talk aboutyou, but.

(22:00):
Okay, so the reason we haveMelissa Walker on today is because,
like, you've been there, like,for me through everything.
We met when I was 19.
Yeah.
I was 20.
Like, Ivy wasn't born yet.
Yeah, 20.
I was 20.
And how did you guys meet?
Like in a school, like college or.
Like I was a nanny in Ohio andI went to church and I met Melissa.

(22:26):
Oh, yeah, In Ohio.
Yes, in Ohio.
My husband.
I went to Hiram College andour church was in Hiram, Ohio.
Melissa number three also wentto Hiram College.
Yep.
I think she was on her missionat the time, though, if I remember
correctly.
And yeah, she had just left.
I hadn't met her.

(22:46):
Yeah, they hadn't.
Melissa number one and Melissanumber three hadn't met each other.
There was a bunch of Melissa'sin that.
In that.
In that ward at church.
Oh, yeah, that's fine.
I have to number Andrews.
There's too many of them.
Oh, really?
Okay.
I've only.
Well, you can tell Andrew thathe's the only one that I know.
He's the only one in my eyes.

(23:07):
Yes.
So actually I actually have amemory of when we first met and how,
like.
And it kind of highlights,like, how like, not.
Okay, both of us were.
Oh, tell me.
And I think about this everynow and then, but, like, we were
talking in the Parking lot of church.

(23:29):
And we both kept saying I'msorry for, like, nothing.
And we were like, I'm sorry.
No, I'm sorry.
No, I'm sorry.
No, I'm sorry.
Like this like, I'm sorry loop.
And I remember being reallyexcited to meet you.
And, like, I got into the carwith my husband and I left.
But, like, I was like, whywere we both so sorry?

(23:50):
Like, there was nothing.
Like, that's how insecure weboth were that we just like, had
to apologize for.
Like.
Yeah, it's true.
And I still have a problemwith that.
And then going to Japan on mymission didn't help either because,
like, there you just.
Instead of saying, excuse mesorry, there's this you.
Instead of saying just excuse me.

(24:11):
Like, you say, I'm sorry for everything.
Yeah.
And so that kind of like madeit even harder for me to get out
of.
But when you guys met, is thispre licensed therapist Melissa?
Yeah.
So I.
I mean, I didn't get even goto grad school until like more than
10 years later.
Oh, okay.
And.

(24:31):
And I was in college at thetime, and I was not like a psychology.
I mean, psychology majorsdon't learn anything anyway.
But I wasn't.
I was a major and an English minor.
So, like.
Yeah, I was not anywhere inany health space.
And I hadn't been to therapyor anything.
Oh, okay.
I hadn't either, actually.

(24:51):
Oh, we can talk about that too.
So you guys met each other when.
You guys.
We're both in a mentallydifferent place than you are now.
Oh, for sure.
Yes.
Okay.
Now granted, I would hope thatwe would have been in a mentally
different place.
I mean, we're 20 years later, right?
So if we haven't grown, then there's.
Something five years later.

(25:12):
Really over half our lives.
Like 25 years.
Like, I think 25.
Yeah, you're right because wemet in 2019.
No, no.
Yes.
I was trying to say 1999.

(25:33):
Yeah, it was probably 1999.
That is so funny.
Yeah, it was.
Because I remember when I wasa nanny, I remember I turned 20 there
and she got me tickets toPhantom of the Opera.
My.
The people I worked for.
But anyway, okay, so, yeah, so I.
Would say this time kind ofstems a lowest of the lows for you,

(25:59):
like this time period.
Nope, nope.
This time period was me kindof spreading my wings a little bit,
I.
Would say a little.
It wasn't the first time I'dlived away from home, like, by any
means.
Like, actually, I didn't liveat home before I went and became
a nanny.
But I feel like I was in adifferent state.
I was just kind of.

(26:21):
I don't know.
I was just finding myself andmaking new friends and.
Yeah.
But I don't think I realizedthe effect that, like, growing up
the way that I did maybe hadon me, if that makes sense.
I think I was still in that,like, phase of thinking there wasn't

(26:41):
anything to work.
Like, I never.
It didn't even enter my mind.
It never entered my mind.
That was like, a differenttype of lifestyle.
Yeah.
I would need therapy one day.
Yeah.
Okay, so what stemmed you intoneeding therapy?
Okay.
When I was 21, I ended upgoing on a mission for the church.

(27:04):
Was this Japan.
Yep.
Okay.
And it was in Japan, and I washaving, like, a really, really hard
time emotionally, I guess youcould say.
And the.
So when you're over, like, ona mission, there's this one person
who's in charge of all of theyoung missionaries, and he was the

(27:24):
mission president.
And I was meeting with himonce, and he's like, I really just
would like you to meet withthe mission doctor.
And he was a psychiatrist.
No.
Huh?
Psychiatrist.
I always say I'm wrong.
Thanks, Melissa.
Yeah, he was a psychiatrist.
And I was just like, I don't.

(27:45):
I don't believe in therapy.
Like, we grew up.
My.
My dad was like, we.
Okay, this is not good.
But we found out my grandpawas on Prozac, and we all made fun
of him.
Oh, I know.
Because it's like, it's mindover matter.
And there's.
Oh, boohoo, you.
Why are you so upset?
It like, your life's not thathard anyway.

(28:06):
So I just was kind of like,no, I'm not going to go see the doctor.
And he's like, well, I wishyou would, because you have, like,
one.
The only thing I remember himsaying is, you take everything on
as if everything's your fault,Things that you can't control.
It's like, I just need you togo talk to this guy.
So I went in there, and Iremember sitting down, the first

(28:28):
thing I said is, I don't wantto be here.
I'm only here becausePresident Grange told me to come.
Yeah.
And he was like, oh, well, I'mreally glad that you decided to listen
to him, that you have so muchrespect for him.
He was very nice to me, but hebasically just started asking me
a bunch of questions aboutmyself and how I grew up.

(28:49):
And I remember just sittingwith him for probably a couple hours
and then just bawling at the End.
And I remember him saying,let's turn.
Let's put you on some.
On some medicine for youranxiety and depression.
He.
I remember him saying, you'veprobably been dealing and struggling
with this stuff since you werein your early teens.
Yeah.
It was just.
It was very.

(29:10):
It was very weird for me.
I was.
I was humiliated because Ifelt like there was something wrong
with me.
I remember they had to call myparents and tell them that I was
going on medication becauseit's just.
It's just a lot of rules and stuff.
And so they told my parents.
I remember, like, begging themnot to call them.
Yeah.
As a adult, that's.

(29:31):
That is embarrassing.
You should.
Yeah.
Now that I think about it.
Yeah.
Sketchy.
Now that I.
And the HIPAA.
Right.
This breaks HIPAA.
Right one.
I mean, you were 21 or 22,like, sketchy.
Okay, you're right.
But at the time, I mean, itwas Japan, but still, wasn't there

(29:52):
hipaa?
I don't know.
There might now be.
It might have been after that hipaa.
It's funny because, like, thefirst time I've ever even thought
that that wasn't okay.
I guess I just was like, no.
Like, you're the church.
They own you while you're on a mission.
They don't.
But I don't know.

(30:13):
I guess I just felt like.
Yeah.
I mean, like, psychologically, like.
Yeah.
Some people have goodexperiences on admissions.
A lot of people have bad missions.
Yeah.
And I'll say I did have a good experience.
Like, honestly, if it weren'tfor President Graham's, I wouldn't
probably be where I am today.

(30:34):
And so, again, this is PreMelissa Walker being licensed.
Pre Melissa Walker being licensed.
She wrote me letters in Japan.
I should go try to find some.
That's fun.
I don't.
I mean, I.
I know we did, but, like, Idon't remember.
Like, I'm sure they lost.
I have this picture of Ivythat I took with me, because one
of the things that you woulddo is we were encouraged to, like,

(30:59):
make something, like a littlephoto album.
I think it was called a jiko shokai.
It's like an introductionbook, and it's, like, of friends
and family and people fromAmerica to kind of, like, just start
talking to people becausepeople would want to know where we
came from.
And I had a picture of Ivy,and she was a baby, and she was in

(31:20):
the leaves, and her.
Her, like, little porcelain.
Oh, I know that picture.
We have that picture in thephoto album.
And her eyes are, like, so blue.
So Blue.
She's like.
It's like a pile of autumn leaves.
That she's lying in.
I have one like that with Logan.
It's beautiful.
But anyway, I remember.
Yeah, people loved thatpicture too.
But anyway.

(31:41):
All right, what did you want to.
Share with us today?
So mental health awareness.
Let's.
She's going to get off track.
I guess.
We got off track.
Yes, we did.
We're 30 minutes in and wehave not talked about why we're here.
As you guys heard me talkabout how I had a lot of trauma and
then it turned into thesereally embarrassing seizures.

(32:04):
But I think what we havelearned together is that everyone
has that breaking pointmoment, whether they want to admit
it or not, or they hit theirlike low lowest and they realize
they need help.
Yeah.
And I shared what brought meinto that.
And I think you were wantingto share kind of what brought you
into that.
Yeah.
So that was the beginning ofit was being.

(32:24):
Was seeing the doctor in Japan.
So coming back to the Statesafter that actually was really hard
because I didn't have cultureshock going over there, but I did
coming home.
I don't know how to explainit, but I guess just because every
second of your life is plannedout for you on a mission, you have

(32:45):
to get up at 6 o' clock in the morning.
You have to like, literallyevery second of the day is planned
out until 9 o' clock at nightwhen you go to bed.
So then going, coming home andjust kind of finding my own self,
having to like.
I don't know, it's just, it'sscary and it's hard.
I was about five years.
I would, I don't know, in2008, I would say is when I kind

(33:06):
of had a breakdown.
I remember talking to you onthe phone.
You were living in yourparents house after your mission.
Yeah.
And like we're chatting andlike back in the day I was definitely
a phone talker and I'm liketrying to chat and like catch up.
And your parents were like,get off the phone, missy.
Get off the phone.
Get off the phone.
I was like.
And I was like, why?

(33:27):
Like why aren't you allowed totalk on the phone?
And you're like, I have to go.
My parents don't like it whenI'm on the phone.
And I don't know if yourealize like how.
Controlled.
Yeah, yeah, I.
I was like that word.
But it was like even talkingon the phone to somebody outside,

(33:48):
like it really bugged them.
And you were like, I'm like,you are a grown Ass.
Adult.
Talking to your friend, like,why aren't you allowed?
And if you weren't bothering,like, it was loud.
It's not like they werewatching tv.
It's not like they needed tomake a phone call.
It's not like you were tyingup the line.
It was just like, very.
And I didn't understand it atthe time because this was all pre.

(34:12):
Going to grad school.
But now I look back at that,I'm like.
Like, at the time, I was like, oh.
And like, looking back, I'mlike, yeah, that speaks volumes.
Yeah.
No, that would give you, like,that feeling of being an inconvenience.
I feel like setting that into you.
Yeah, for sure.
Wow.
Interesting.
Because.
Yeah, you're right.

(34:32):
Even to this day, I don'treally think.
I hadn't really thought of itthat much.
It's.
But you're right.
It was just a lot of.
I guess control is the best word.
I don't know.
But yeah.
So then I remember I ended upmoving out and a lot of things transpired.
Like, I was working at adental lab.
I don't remember what exactlyset me off, but I wasn't having.

(34:56):
I wasn't getting like, actual therapy.
I was just, I guess you couldsay medicated, because I still stayed
medicated after I got off the mission.
Okay.
But then I remember things transpired.
I remember walking out on myjob, and then I remember dating somebody

(35:19):
that made me feel used, Iguess you could say.
And I don't know, I'm tryingto think what else was going on in
my life at that time thatwould have, like, spiraled me, but
basically I just spiraled.
And I didn't want to be alive anymore.
And so I did try to unalivemyself, and I ended up in the hospital

(35:44):
drinking charcoal and getting.
Make it.
Have them making me throw up.
And then because I lived inSouth Carolina, they have laws there
where they have.
You have to be admitted.
I think that's everywhere.
Is that everywhere?
No, no.
Yeah.
I know I've had.
I've talked to so many peoplewho have been hospitalized for attempts,

(36:07):
who did not receive mentalhealth treatment.
And I.
I think that almost always, ifyou've made an attempt, you probably
need admitted intensiveoutpatient or something.
But like, yeah, you're inTexas and different states have different
laws.
So sometimes, like, you can,like, if you voluntarily go and you

(36:30):
sign yourself in.
Cool.
But if you don't voluntarilysign yourself in, in some states
you have to go.
And some states, if it's notvoluntary, that means Handcuffs.
I don't, I don't.
All the states are differentand even it can be different from
county to county in some states.
So then what was your experience?
Okay, so.
Okay.
I'm actually glad you'retalking because it gave me a second

(36:51):
to kind of think.
Yeah.
So I ended up beinghospitalized that night.
I went off in the ambulanceand because of the rules and the
laws, state laws, I had tostay in the hospital until for I
was about a week actuallybecause there was nothing open in
any in the Lakes state run institution.
Like, like they didn't have space.
They didn't have space and soI had to stay in the hospital for

(37:14):
about a week.
I remember friends coming tovisit me while I was there and like.
Oh.
And I also remember, just aside note, I remember one of the
biggest things that actuallydid kind of set me off.
I really had like this a lotof self loathing and part of, I just
remembered part of it wasbecause of that guy I was dating
and I felt like I was being used.

(37:35):
And at the same time though Idid have premarital sex and I was
discommuni or what's it called?
Disfellowship from the church.
And so that like made me feellike I was a really, really awful
person because growing up thatwas my identity.
Yeah.
One thing, I don't know if itwas, I don't, I don't know like if

(37:55):
it was that person or if itwas a.
There was something thathappened during that time though
that like you really put on yourself.
And we were talking about itlike years later I think when you
were living with us before Iwas a therapist and I was like that
thing that happened wasn'tyour fault.
And you're like no, it wasbecause of da da da da.
And I'm like no, no, like thatwasn't your fault.

(38:17):
And you're like no, it was my fault.
And like I like kind of arguedwith you and unfortunately I've had
that argument people since.
What thing was it?
Remind me.
Non consensual.
Oh, so okay, yes.
That actually happened evenlonger ago.
That was something thathappened when I was younger before

(38:37):
I met you.
That was one of the thingsthat I do remember you teaching me
like that used the R word.
You said that was rape.
And this is back in now we'rekind of going back to when I met
you in 2019.
I remember you saying that tome and I was like, no, as in.
19, like in 20.
You mean in 1999.

(38:57):
That know our year 1999 when Iwas 19.
Yeah.
That's a lot of nines.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Having that conversation,like, in my bedroom in Little Elm,
Texas, we might have.
Had it again then.
Maybe I never really didbelieve you because she did try to
get me to, like, see, like, that's.
That was not your fault, and Ididn't believe it.

(39:19):
So I think I probably wascarrying that around with me.
I never got therapy over that.
I never did.
So, like.
Yeah.
So then in 2008, whenever Ihad my breakdown, of course that's
going to be one of the things.
Just one of the many baggagepieces that kind of like, broke the
camel's back, I guess youcould say.
So you're in the hospital.
In the hospital for a week.
This is the part that I had forgotten.

(39:41):
Melissa Walker reminded methey made so to be transported from
the hospital to the mental hospital.
I did forget this.
They had a police officerescort me, and I had to be handcuffed
in the back of a police car.
And it doesn't make any sense.
It's horrible.
That's traumatizing.

(40:02):
It was traumatizing.
And then my parents were thereat the hospital to meet me, and I
remember, like, getting out ofthe car and walking into the hospital
like that, and it was soembarrassing and humiliating.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
And it's weird because it'slike, obviously I didn't do anything,
so why would I be so embarrassed?

(40:23):
But it's just.
I don't know why.
Why was I so embarrassed?
Because wearing cuffs are shameful.
Plus, your family culture of,like, mental illness is shameful.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's true.
So that was a lot.
I ended up being there forthree or four weeks, and I think
that's a.
That's not bad.

(40:44):
It's not too bad, I guess.
But you're really.
When you first get in there,they're saying, like, okay, it could
be anywhere from, like, oh, itcould be just a week.
And we were hoping it was justgoing to be a week.
For context, insurance usuallypays for seven to 10 days.
So I didn't even realizeinsurance would pay for it.
Well, so I don't know what thedeal was.

(41:04):
I didn't have insurance.
And since it was a statehospital, state house, at least in
Texas, things might bedifferent in South Carolina.
In Texas, though, almostnobody goes to the state hospital,
especially if you have insurance.
But.
But just for context, whatinsurance and of course, what insurance
thinks is right and what'sactually right are not always aligned.
Almost ever.

(41:25):
But, like, the kind of normalexpectation is seven to 10 days.
So I would say three or fourweeks is.
To me, that says this was areal severe thing.
Yeah.
Okay.
To get out, you had to go infront of a judge.
And I remember.

(41:46):
So, okay.
My parents would come and visit.
There was a few things, too,that happened during that time.
Like, I had a roommate who.
Oh, yeah.
There was so much that put methere, I forgot I had a dog who had
been put down without meknowing while I was out of town.
Oh, my gosh.
So, yeah, there's a lot ofstuff that happened, and it just

(42:06):
all kind of, like, culminated.
But anyway, while I was there,I do remember that my parents would
come visit me.
And I remember this oneparticular time, and the whole time
I was.
They were there, and they werejust yelling at me about how I clearly
didn't understand theatonement of Christ because if I
did, I wouldn't have hatedmyself or wanted to, you know, disappear

(42:31):
from the world because I wouldhave been able to give all of my
problems over to Christ.
Right.
And I'm just like, that's notat all, like.
I don't know.
But then it would, like, putthat burden on you and make you panic
of like, oh, you're right.
Like, there is something wrongwith me.
And then would that, like,transpire into, like.

(42:51):
Well, interestingly, I want tosay I didn't feel like they were
right.
I guess I kind of, like,fought back against it, and that's
why we kind of were, like,fighting and.
But at the same time, even.
Even in denial, I guess maybethere's a part of me that's like,
oh, what is wrong?
I don't know.
What.
Do you remember any of that, Melissa?
I wasn't.

(43:11):
We talked about it later, andI just remember, like, when you were
telling me later that, like,they kept saying, okay, well, you're
probably about ready to leave,like, in the next few days, and then
your parents would come visityou, and then you'd, like, take a
nosedive your wellness.
And the doctor was like, yeah,no, we got to keep you longer.
And I didn't the doctoreventually say, like, don't let her

(43:32):
family come anymore orsomething like that?
That's exactly right.
I forgot about that.
So they.
I.
So it was actually like, ateam of doctors that you're talking
to, like, a social worker anda doctor and a nurse practitioner.
I don't know.
And they would, like, gettogether and have, like, little pout.
Oh, I think that's not PC tosay anymore, which it probably never
was.
But they would have meetingsabout you and then decide where and

(43:56):
what you should do next.
And I remember after one ofthe meetings, one of the doctors
came back to me and said, youknow, we've been talking about it,
and every time they come in,you decline.
It's okay if you tell themthat you don't want them to visit
you, and it's okay for you to,like, not have them in your life
as much as they have been inthe past.

(44:18):
And I.
That was hard for me because.
But it was a person ofauthority, I guess, telling me.
And so I felt like, okay,yeah, I guess I can do it.
I remember that they even hadsaid, if you don't, they don't have
to be there when you go infront of the judge.
Like, you don't have to havethem there.
And that was a really bigdecision for me to make, too, because

(44:40):
they're.
Already expecting you, and nowyou're saying, don't show up.
Yeah, exactly.
And so, yeah, they didn't show up.
And.
Yeah.
And I was able to kind of.
Like, get myself together, goback home after this.
No.
And I didn't have a place togo back to because my roommate ended
up getting out of ourapartment lease and moving in with

(45:01):
her boyfriend or maybe getting married.
I can't remember whathappened, but she got rid of our
apartment lease.
And so what did you do?
I stayed with some friends.
And you came to live with us.
I came to live with the Walkers.
Oh.
Yeah.
So Thomas, me let me stay withthem for, I would say, about a week.
And you were trying to talk meinto coming out.

(45:22):
We were like.
She was so worried about beinga burden.
And I remember saying to you,like, I was like.
I was totally being sincere,but I was, like, trying to convince
you.
I'm like, it would be a hugehelp to us because my husband had
lost his job at Pfizer.
We were, like, trying to dothis startup business.

(45:43):
I was trying to, like, work,but the kids were little.
And, like, there's no waythat, like, without any work experience,
I could make enough money topay for daycare for two little kids.
Like, it just went.
So we were like, honestly,like, having somebody to help with
the kids, help with thebusiness would be the biggest help
in the world to us.
You would be doing us a favor.

(46:03):
And while you're getting backon your feet.
And, I mean, it was true.
And also, we were very happyto be, like.
Like, we knew that we could,like, be a safe place.
Yeah.
Honestly, it was very safe.
I feel like I learned so muchat that time, and I know I wasn't
easy to live with.
There was times when, like, Iwould just disappear into the room,
and I.
Don'T think you were easy tolive with, and I very.

(46:27):
Yeah, because you were, like,overly accommodating.
But there were probably, like,a couple.
Like, the couple of times thatwe had, like, a couple of, like,
disagreements.
I definitely feel like I wasthe bitch on both of those.
I.
I only.
I.
I don't even remember.
I only remember one thing, andthat was.
Cause you reminded me of it.
But anyway.

(46:47):
So you got back on your feet.
Yeah, by living with them, but.
But I was able to, like, watchthem with Ethan and Ivy and just
kind of see, like, one of thebiggest things that.
Something healthy there.
See something healthy.
One of the biggest things, andit seems so small that I learned
was people are more importantthan things.
And I remember, like, thatblew my mind.

(47:09):
Like, you could break a dish,and you were still more important
than getting mad about thedish being broken or, like, you could
probably wreck a car.
And it was still.
That is so funny.
I think I had to learn that,like, later in life, too.
Like, if we got, like, a dropof spaghetti sauce, like, on the
carpet, it was like, oh, mygosh, am I about to die now?

(47:30):
And, like, getting to thepoint of, like, I think I was hard
on the kids for a while.
Of like, you just got a spoton the carpet.
Now I have to clean it.
And now I'm like, it's okay.
It's like, let's just drop thespaghetti on the floor.
Like, it's okay.
We're gonna fix it.
Exactly.
And the other thing I rememberabout that time, I really, really
wanted a dog.

(47:51):
And Melissa Walker.
Melissa was like, well, get a dog.
And I was like, what?
But in your house.
Because I wouldn't want it tobe outside.
We didn't have any pest.
Yeah, it wasn't like that.
Like, we were, like.
Not like, the kids were little.
I don't think we even had the bunnies.
Like, we didn't.
No, you didn't.
We had no pets at that time.
So, you know, going from,like, no pets to a dog, it's a bit

(48:14):
of a transition.
But the kids enter Waverly.
It was Waverly.
Yeah.
And the kids, like, all of us,love Waverly.
But, like, the kids were,like, so, so excited.
Yeah.
They were so sweet with her.
Oh.
One very important thing thatwe forgot to say is you had one rule
when I came to live with you.

(48:34):
Do you remember it?
I Think it was.
You're not allowed to try tokill yourself because it would traumatize
my kids.
Pretty much.
Two rules.
Okay.
Get therapy.
Okay.
Yeah, I.
Because I.
My only concern, and it was areal concern was, like, my kids are
going to be attached to you.

(48:54):
Yep.
And if, like, you attemptagain, they're going to know about
it and it's going to affect them.
And so, like, the, like, Ihave to protect my kids from being
traumatized by that.
Yeah.
So that's really fair.
How is that.
How did that feel for you,Melissa Walker, to have to say that

(49:17):
to your friend?
Like, hey, there's a rule inmy house.
You can't attempt to kill yourself.
Because, like, I feel likethat's awkward.
I just.
I just felt like I'm veryhappy thing.
But, like, my kids.
My first responsibility is tomy kids.
And, like, that.
That I'm not like.

(49:38):
And I understand that.
Yeah.
No, I just.
I love that you were, like,brave enough to just, like, you know,
protect your kids first.
Because I feel like if I wasin this situation, I would just,
in my head, be like, okay,this is gonna be really traumatizing
if this happens.
Let's just hope it doesn't happen.
And, like, instead of, like,getting in front of it and just being
like, to be clear.

(50:00):
That's another thing I learnedfrom Melissa Walker, and it's been
a huge boon on my mentalhealth journey is communication.
One of the things I rememberyou always kind of saying is, like,
you can't be mad aboutsomething that you never voiced was
bothering you.
Right.
And I remember, like, yes, youcan be, I guess.
But I remember you being very,like, hey, we talk about things in

(50:23):
this family.
Well, you can, like, yourfeelings are always valid, but, like,
if.
If I don't know something,like, like, you gotta tell me.
And then if I don't do it,then you can be mad, but, like.
Yeah, you can't fix what youdon't know.
Yeah, exactly.
So.
So she's always been reallygood about that.
And I would say, yeah.
So being able to get there.

(50:44):
So immediately I had to go.
I went and found a therapist.
Not really.
And did this feel, like, morecomfortable to you than the first
time you saw the therapist, or.
Yeah, so the first time it waslike, we had that one big, long talk,
and then it was medication,and that's pretty much all it was.
I don't.
I hadn't accidentally had,like, the real.

(51:07):
The first time I had, like,real therapy was in the hospital.
Okay.
Okay.
And then.
And there was a Lot of CBT in there.
Cognitive behavioral therapy,which actually was.
It worked for me at the time.
It was very.
Here's the flaws in your thinking.
And I'm like, I'm not flawed.
And then I'm like, oh yeah,that is flawed.

(51:28):
Fine.
But yeah.
So I forgot where I was going.
We had you immediately found a therapist.
Okay.
So what I ended up having todo is I didn't have insurance, I
didn't have any money.
So I went over and found like.
I think you might have googledit for me, Melissa.
Like there was some state.

(51:50):
Did you go to.
I think you went to Mhmr.
Yes, actually.
I bet you're right.
I did.
What does that stand for?
So.
So this is funny.
It.
It used to stand for like backin the day it stood for mental health,
mental retardation.
But since I think anymore theylike changed all of their stuff that

(52:11):
it's just Mhmr.
But it's.
It's the state mental health.
Well, it's the.
If I'm ever.
If I ever win a billiontrillion dollars, I'm gonna redo
Texas's state mental health.
But yeah, it's underfunded,but it's.
It's the like state paid forMedicaid paid for.
For mental health.
I remember going and sittingin this lobby and it was almost like

(52:32):
the dmv.
You're just sitting there withlike tons a number.
It's super.
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's.
And it's like where all thepeople who don't have money and have
severe mental illness go.
So like, it doesn't.
It's a really good program.
But like it's.
It's trying.

(52:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember going.
I.
Every time I went, I wouldmeet with a different therapist and
every time I went it was like,you have to tell your whole life
story again.
Absolutely not.
It was not amazing.
I'll be honest.
But it did keep me on medication.
Which medication?
I'm just gonna say thankgoodness that we have it because

(53:14):
it's an.
Even if it's not the end allbe all and it's not a true fix.
It's enough to help you likemakes calm down enough to.
To work on yourself.
I.
I would say.
Yeah, that's how I feel aboutit too.
Yeah.
I remember that first day I went.
Somebody actually, they justkind of like.
I just remember going throughand meeting with different.

(53:35):
Now you're gonna go down thehall and talk to this person and
then this person.
And in the end, somehow,somewhere, someone There signed me
up for disability.
Oh, really?
Yeah, because I couldn't work.
Like, I just.
I was living with my friends,you know, and so I remember being
really ashamed about that too.
But they kept saying, no, thisis what it's for.

(53:58):
This is what it's for.
It's for people to get back ontheir feet.
And, like, so I was ondisability for a while and getting
help and slowly trying to growand become more healthy and.
But I would say it was a longroad because then in that time, I
would say I.
I met my.
And married my ex husband whohad his own issues.

(54:20):
Did you meet him, like, whereyou guys were living together or
In Texas?
Yeah, so I met him through afriend that we went to church with.
It was her brother.
Oh, okay.
So you and Melissa Walker werestill Mormon?
Yes.
Mm.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Yeah.

(54:41):
And so then this guy was fromBrazil, and then he.
He was.
He was nice.
And even to this day, I.
Maybe I'm, like, seeing thingsnot clearly.
Still, but have tons of red flags.
Like, I have, like, a coupleof, like, pink flags about him, but
I didn't have, like, a ton ofhuge red flags about him.

(55:01):
Yeah, same.
Okay, that's a.
That's a fair sign.
Yeah.
But the truth is, he.
He.
He was bipolar.
He had a really, like, how.
What's the word?
Like, tumultuous past andbackground, and he was dealing with
his own things, and I justdon't think that you want to be in
a relationship with anyoneuntil your own shit is figured out.

(55:23):
Yeah.
And I still hold that to this day.
And I don't think my own shitis even still figured out, actually.
Well, no one.
Well, she can't have itfigured out because nobody, like,
is ever like, oh, my.
Is fully figured out.
Like, that's not.
Yeah, right, Right.
But if he's that severe in hisown mental health and you're still
trying to work out your ownsevere mental health, I.

(55:45):
That's not space for either of you.
Okay, that's a very good point.
To improve.
That's a very good point.
A battling of.
Let me suppress mine becauseyou need me.
No, I'm going to suppress minebecause you need me.
And then build up, build up,build up, crash.
I don't know.
That's just my.
That is.
No, that was like, a perfectassessment of that relationship.
Sound like.

(56:07):
I agree.
That is exactly where that went.
Yes.
I was just speaking from myown experiences that.
That's what it felt like.
It felt like, like, you're not stable.
I'm not Stable.
But I have to pretend to bestable because you're not.
And.
Yeah, that.
No, that was exactly.
Call me therapist.

(56:27):
We will soon.
RTT or whatever.
Okay.
So then we had, like, an issue where.
So this is where things.
This is the part.
This is the meat that Sam wants.
Me to get to.
This is what leads to the partthat you technically wanted to talk
about.
I didn't know about what wejust talked about.

(56:48):
I did not know about that.
You and Melissa Walker.
Yeah.
So basically, Vincent and Ifound out that we were pregnant because
I was in a car accident.
And they were like.
That's how you found out?
Yeah, they were like, by theway, you want the good news or the
bad news?
And they're like, your P testcame back and you're pregnant.

(57:09):
And I was like, yeah.
I was like, no, no.
And.
And I was.
But.
Was it shortly was nothing.
We lost the baby.
And that was sad.
Yeah.
It was just a baby.
And so then from.
I didn't realize that there were.
Yeah.

(57:29):
So from there, we kind of werelike, oh, wow.
This wasn't really on our radar.
Like, I guess we kind of,like, knew we weren't trying not
to have children, but I don't know.
It was kind of like, well, nowlet's have a baby.
I don't know.
Yeah.
And so then I'm trying toremember how.
Because the second one wasactually kind of a surprise, too.
And I don't remember how wefound that out.
Is this.

(57:50):
So you guys decided.
So this unfortunate, like,learning of, oh, there's a baby and
then miscarriage, did thisstem, like, let's get married and
start trying to have a kid whoalready married.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Yeah.
But I wouldn't like, thelittle bit of time like most things.

(58:10):
And Vincent stayed with us inyour old room for, like, a little
bit of time until they gotmarried, like, when he got to America.
Oh, so you guys were stilltrying to do, like, the Mormon way
of, like, we know we want tobe together, but let's.
We can't live together.
And.
Okay.
Actually.
Yeah.
But then we didn't do a verygood job at it.
And he came and he stayed atthe apartment with me.

(58:33):
And then.
Shameful.
Then the bishop.
No, it is.
And then the bishop, when wewent and spoke to him because we
wanted him to marry us, waslike, well, we.
He goes, you guys need.
And he was really nice.
And so it's, like, hard for meto like, yeah, because this is kind
of messed up.
But he basically said, youguys are Living in sin.

(58:57):
You need to move your weddingup and get married, like, pronto.
Because we wanted to getmarried, like, in a few months before
his visa ran out.
Right.
But we still didn't want toget married, like, right then.
But he's like, you guys needto get married now or I'm gonna have
to excommunicate you both.
And so I was like, okay.
So we ended up getting marriedreally fast, which was not a deal.

(59:20):
And I.
I do think that if I hadn'tgot married right away.
An awesome, fast, almost freewedding, though.
It was gorgeous.
She bought my wedding dress.
Yeah.
And, like, she got the mostbeautiful dress.
And it was like.
Like.
I don't know why it was asecond, but it was, like, so cheap.

(59:42):
It was gorgeous.
And, like, everything was good.
Like, it.
We did the most awesome fast, almost.
That's true.
That's true.
Oh, I believe it.
But I.
I don't feel I.
In my brain.
If you knew that you weregoing to get married anyways in a
couple of months to.
For his visa, and then they'relike, no, get married right now.
I mean, would that really havechanged a whole lot of what?

(01:00:04):
I do think so.
We would have had.
Because we were already havingsome, like, kind of big fights.
Okay.
And I really think that.
I think it kind of might havecome down to it and been like, I
don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Who knows, right?
Happens for a reason, I guess.
I don't know.
What do you think about thatone, Melissa?

(01:00:25):
I hadn't thought of it before,but I do remember you had a big fight
the morning of your wedding,and you're like, well, crap, like,
are we getting married todayor what?
And, like, forgot about that.
No, but you were like, Idon't, like, are we getting married?
We just.
He just.
I don't remember what you guyssaid to each other, but it was mean
and nasty.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.

(01:00:46):
Yeah.
Anyway, so, yes, we found outwe were pregnant, and then we kind
of got excited, like, oh,maybe we could have a baby.
And I wouldn't say we, like,started trying.
Trying, but again.
But it happened again.
Trying to not.
Yeah, exactly.
But then it was like, a littlemore like, oh, I'm kind of excited
if this could happen again.
And then we did get pregnantagain, and this time it was a set

(01:01:09):
of twins.
How far after the first one?
Not within the same year,maybe, I would say.
But yeah, so this time it was twins.
And I remember going to this,and I.
I was on Medicare Because Ihad disability.
I was on disability.
So I.
You know, and I remember nodoctors wanted to accept the Medicare.

(01:01:31):
And so I just found, like,this one doctor that finally would
see me.
And I went and saw her, andshe was like, oh, yeah, here's your
babies.
And then.
Then I went back again.
And then the second time, shecouldn't find their heartbeat.
And then she said, oh, well,just come back next week and we'll

(01:01:51):
try again.
And I was so naive.
I just thought, okay, they're hiding.
Yeah, they're small.
They're hiding under an organor something.
And so I went back the nextweek, and she still didn't find them.
And she had me go back everyweek for five weeks.
Wow.
You don't know that.
You don't remember this.

(01:02:13):
And this sounds really incompetent.
Oh, it gets worse.
It gets better.
Oh, I can't believe you don'tremember this.
Well, I'm learning, too.
Keep going.
Okay.
So she had me go back every week.
Why didn't you do a blood test?
Because your hormone levelswould have showed it, right?
Yeah.
So then I end up in theemergency room for a dnc, and the.

(01:02:36):
Doctors there were like, youhad a.
Complication, had to go to the hospital.
And then they were like, oh,this is.
Yeah, I think somebody said, Idon't remember if I had a complication
or if somebody was like, youneed to get out of the hospital.
This isn't okay.
And it might have been you.
But I ended up going in and.
Because somebody's saying,like, you could get really sick if
you leave those babies in there.

(01:02:56):
And so I went to the emergency room.
The doctor there said, who isyour doctor?
And I told them.
And then they came back anhour later and were like.
Because it was just all day,lots of waiting in a room.
And they came back and werelike, she does.
The reason she kept having youcome back every week is because she
wanted you to pass the naturally.
She hasn't.

(01:03:16):
Her license has been revoked.
Yeah.
She couldn't do your DNC in ahospital, so.
Oh, you don't remember?
This.
Is walking.
Look at that face.
I'm in shock.
Yeah.
And so I was just.
So they were pretty upset.
I don't know what happened toher after that, but I do remember

(01:03:37):
people being like, you should sue.
You should go, and something.
And.
And I thought.
And I kind of, to this day,regret that I didn't, but I just
didn't want to deal with it.
It was just so much.
And so.
But I.
Only thing that I regret isthe fact that she could still keep
doing that to other people.
And I.
Yeah.
Wait, can she.
Her license is already revoked.

(01:03:58):
And how is she even practice.
I.
I don't know.
Medicare without an active license.
This is all.
I don't know.
I don't know.
They said.
Well, okay, so they said herlicense to.
To do surgeries in thehospital was revoked.
So I.
Maybe there's different ones.
Privileges.
Maybe it's hospital privileges.
Oh, okay, then that's what it was.

(01:04:21):
And so.
And I never found out why oranything like that, but they were
just like, don't just stayaway from her.
Yeah.
So I carried my twins till.
Yeah.
How far along were you?
Not super far.
It was 13 weeks.
Yeah, but five weeks of.

(01:04:41):
It was just.
It was.
It was awful.
That.
That would be traumatizing to.
To realize you've beencarrying, like, deceased fetuses.
Well, like in the.
Yeah, it was awful.
I actually have.
I'm trying to decide if Ishould read this or not, because
I feel like.
Oh, I might let you read it.
You want me to read it out loud?
Yeah.
So I found a Facebook postthat I wrote back then.

(01:05:03):
Oh.
And I Actually, I didn't readit just now.
I haven't read it or heard itfor a long time, but I just found
it.
I'll let you read it.
You guys want to hear?
Okay, so I'm ready to share.
It's been a really difficultsix months, two miscarriages.
The last one was a beautifulset of twins.
I first wanted to say howgrateful I am for the friends and
family I have who support andlove me through everything.

(01:05:25):
And when I ask for space, Ialso would like to explain that miscarriages
are a very painful loss to experience.
The most difficult part wasnot that I had to carry them for
weeks after they had passed, though.
That was heartbreaking for me.
The most difficult part wasgoing into the hospital and coming
out without my babies in my arms.

(01:05:45):
My first words out ofanesthesia were, where are my babies?
I want to see my babies.
The nurses were very kind, buttold me that they had already been
sent to pathology for testing.
It's like having your heartripped out of you, yet not being
able to see it, to know itever existed.
You have nothing tangible toput your love in.

(01:06:07):
Say goodbye to.
You feel crazy and lost, fullof emotions and empty at the same
time.
All I have is a blurrysonogram picture to remind me that
my babies were real.
They were growing, theirhearts were strong.
And my grief is not for Nothing.
I share this not for pity, butto hopefully raise a bit of awareness
to the fact that the grief is real.

(01:06:29):
Oh, I forgot about all that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's how it felt.
Yeah.
You feel kind of crazy.
Like, there's, like.
People don't talk aboutmiscarriages, really.
I don't know why either.
Because it's real grief.
Yeah.
I don't.
I don't know.
The word for it is ambiguous loss.

(01:06:51):
And there are a lot of thingsin our society that fall under ambiguous
loss.
And it's.
It's like, so, like, whensomebody dies, people kind of expect
you to have a grievingprocess, but if it's not something
that is, like, a universallyshared thing, then it kind of gets,

(01:07:15):
like, nobody wants to hearabout it.
It's kind of taboo.
And so.
And you don't really know howto grieve it because, like you said
in that Facebook post, like,there's no tangible evidence.
Like, not everybody can relateto it.
And so you go through the samegrieving process, but you don't have
the support, family andfriends, or the understanding of

(01:07:36):
people.
And, I mean, that happens withmiscarriages a lot.
It can happen with even abortions.
It can happen with divorces.
It can happen with, like, lossof dreams or, like, if you lose a
limb or become disabled.
Like, all of those things arekind of ambiguous loss things, and

(01:08:00):
they.
They are very real, but peopledon't really have words for them,
and society doesn't reallyrecognize them.
Yeah.
So it kind of gets swept oflike, you'll be fine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Actually, I remember waking upin the hospital because I had told
them beforehand that I wantedto see them.
I know that sounds morbid.
No, I actually reading that,like, that's.

(01:08:23):
I got, like.
I paused because I was like,we already sent them to pathology.
Like, like, if you're takingthem out, why could you not have
at least touched them?
I don't know.
Right.
Like, I think maybe they needto normalize something like that.
Maybe just because it's not.
Maybe because they wouldn'thave looked like fully formed babies

(01:08:44):
yet.
I don't know.
But I do remember sayingbeforehand that I wanted to see them.
And apparently I.
I just remember waking upscreaming, and the nurses were like.
I just remember hearingnurses, like, around me saying, I
don't know what to do.
I've never.
This has never happened before.
And I guess I was like, inthe, like, recovery space, coming

(01:09:05):
out of anesthesiology, and,like, there's other people there
trying to come out and I waslike screaming and crying.
Okay.
But I will say, I don't knowif that just wasn't like acknowledged
back then, but like, womencoming out of anesthesia, they.
You come out either fighting,screaming, fighting, like swinging,
or you come out weeping, crying.

(01:09:25):
Oh, I just.
I didn't know.
I've only.
I've.
That's the only time I've evercome out doing anything.
Usually I just wake up.
Yeah, I'm a weeper up.
And then I feel like embarrassing.
I'm like, I don't know why I'm crying.
Like, no, you either wake upfighting or you wake up crying like
you're fine.
And I'm like, okay.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
So I woke up screaming andfighting and yelling and they were

(01:09:47):
like, I don't know what to do.
And then I was like, I justwant to see my babies.
They're like, they don't.
They're not here.
They're not here.
And then I was crying and itwas a whole thing, a realization.
So.
Yeah, trauma.
Yeah.
And so from there I just hadlike a really hard time getting out
of that slump.
And I want to say that the fall.

(01:10:08):
So then it was the followingMother's Day, and it's gonna sound
so crazy, but I started cutting.
I remember you mentioning that.
And another episode.
The only thing I can explain.
Well, I had promised Melissa,and I remember this.
I was like, I.

(01:10:29):
Cause I wanted to.
I wanted to try and attemptsuicide again.
And you were.
I thought you and Vincent wereliving in your own space or so.
Yes, we were, but he actually wasn't.
This is a whole nother thing too.
So he actually got a job as atruck driver.
And he left and didn't comehome for nine months with no communication.

(01:10:52):
He would call me every maybeonce a week.
It was bad.
But while he was gone, in thebeginning, ish.
Was that Mother's Day.
And I just remember wanting tonot be alive anymore again.
But I remember, like, Ipromise I would never do that to
Ethan and Ivy.
And so I.

(01:11:13):
I wouldn't do it.
But then I started cutting andit was this.
This crazy thing.
Like, I guess I just felt likeI wanted to shed blood that I couldn't
have shed, that I did, that Imight have shed during childbirth.
It sounds crazy.
No, it doesn't.
That's like.
No, that's.
That's.
Do you want me to like, go in?
Yeah.
Yeah.

(01:11:33):
Okay.
I'm very interested.
So every self destructivebehavior, so to speak, has a purpose.
Like, it's.
It's trying to communicate Something.
And so.
And cutting is, like, almostalways has a symbolic value.

(01:11:54):
Like, I don't want to say ahundred percent of the time, but
like.
Like, very, very frequentlycutting has a symbolic value for
somebody.
So sometimes people are like,well, I need to be punished, and
so I'm punishing myself.
Or sometimes people are like,like, you're saying real pain.
This is pain.
Like cut pain, the other thingthat cutting does.

(01:12:16):
And no, nobody knows this on aconscious level, but they kind of
intuit it is.
We feel emotional pain andphysical pain in the same part of
our brain, but the physicalpain actually feels less bad than
the emotional pain.
And so we can convert it fromemotional pain into physical pain.
Then our body releases theendogenous opioids.

(01:12:39):
We feel a lot better.
Plus, we've communicated toourselves like, we've, like, shed
that.
Like you said, like, shed that blood.
And so it makes actually amillion percent sense.
Wow.
Thanks for saying orexplaining that.
Yeah.
That.
Yeah.
Never judge anybody forcutting or for their reasons for

(01:13:00):
cutting because it actuallyalways makes sense.
Yeah, it was traumatizing for,I guess.
Well, I know it wastraumatizing for you at the time
because I remember I was atthe point where I was like, wait,
I'm bleeding way more than Imeant to.
Oh, no.
So it turned into, like, anaccidental, like, attempt kind of.

(01:13:20):
No, it wasn't even that much,but it was, like, still a lot of
blood.
And I ended up calling Scottbecause I was afraid to call, not
afraid to call you.
I didn't want you to have tocome see it.
And so I called Scott.
But then you came over anywaybecause of course you would.
Right.
And I was gonna sit home and.
Be like, it's fine.
You just get home, like,sipping my hat cocoa.

(01:13:44):
Okay, I have to say something crazy.
Okay.
I didn't see it exactly, like,in my brain as, like, what you're
explaining, but I had a dreamthat you are injured and you're,
like, sitting in this smallspace and you call Scott and Melissa
and like, I.
I actually literally have seenthis in my brain.
Really?
Not like that you were, like,bleeding, bleeding, but there was

(01:14:06):
an emergency, you needed help,and they show up.
Because that's been there forme, for everything.
Yeah, yeah, it makes sensethat you would.
That's so weird.
Yeah.
So from there, it was kind oflike, okay, look, I'm clearly in
a place again.
That's not amazing.
And.
But this time around, insteadof being state mandated, it was like,

(01:14:31):
I.
I know where I'm headed.
I can see what's happeningnow, and I'm not gonna let myself
get to that space.
And so I admitted myself intoa hospital.
I think that's awesome.
Well, thank you.
Because we know people rightnow that were just like, can you
please just admit yourself?
Like, you need help?
This is not going well.

(01:14:53):
Unfortunately, that is a true statement.
But it's embarrassing.
And I feel like I.
I was like, do I want to tellpeople that I went into the hospital
twice in my life?
No.
That you learned from thefirst time.
The first time you didn't knowyou needed help.
This time you're like, I need help.
Like, yeah, help me.
You're right.
And it was worth it.
Like.

(01:15:13):
And then.
So then I went in.
I don't remember how long Iwas there.
Not as long.
Maybe a couple weeks, five,seven days.
No, I don't.
I feel.
I don't feel.
Oh, not even like a week.
And I want to point out yourparents had some growth, too, because
they were in contact with me alot, especially your dad.
Your dad called me, like,almost every day.

(01:15:34):
They were supportive and concerned.
Like, I just think it's worthnoting the change here.
Well, just to interject, whatI have realized from certain parents
is that they put on a verygood mask to other people outside.
So, like, do you think thatwas a mask of, let me show a good

(01:15:55):
effort?
Like, I'm a good person.
I really care about her.
Like, so let me, like, showthat to you.
There might have been some ofthat, but I think.
I mean, I think privately toyou, they were still a lot more supportive,
weren't they?
They were.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Yeah, that's true.
I remember.
So my dad, actually, over theyears, I mean.

(01:16:17):
Because this is what.
What we're talking from.
So that would have been, like.
I think I was in grad schoolat that time.
Right.
Like, so it's only, like,2013, 2014.
Yeah.
At this point.
Yeah, I bet.
Like, early 2014.
When was that Facebook post?
Yeah, 2015.

(01:16:38):
It was 2015.
Okay.
So I was out of school and,like, a baby practitioner.
Yep.
Yep.
So this is baby practice for you?
Yeah, I was just helping her out.
Okay.
Funny.
Not funny.
Yeah.
So it's.
Yeah, it's just one of those things.
It's like, wow.

(01:16:59):
But then.
But I know there's people whohave met me that wouldn't have guessed
that.
So I guess it's worth sharingand just saying, like, it's okay
to be vulnerable.
It's okay to admit that you'rein a bad place, you know, and we
can't always get out of thatplace by ourselves.
Actually, I don't think wereally can.
I think that we're meant to be.

(01:17:19):
We're a societal people.
As we've learned in other seasons.
Like, we are all a part ofeach other.
So it's like we have to allsupport each other.
Yeah.
I think so.
But like you mentioned on thefirst episode of this season, you
are going through a tough timeright now.
You are going through a divorce.
Yeah.
And I feel like that couldhave been a traumatizing stem of

(01:17:44):
your past and that you couldhave spiraled out and just, you know,
just had a.
Maybe another episode.
But I will.
Like, you have been.
So.
This is not me, like, on me.
Like, this is a you problem.
And, like, so obviously thoseexperiences have taught you, like,

(01:18:06):
what is personal, like, you.
And what is not a you problemwhere you've been, like, very.
This isn't a me problem.
This is.
You gotta figure out your.
I'm gonna figure out my.
So I'm gonna.
Like.
But no but, like, that's.
That's growth.
Right.
Like, knowing that I am betterthan this, this time around and you've

(01:18:29):
been able to handle it withthe support of your friends and you
feel comfortable with that?
Yeah, I.
I would say.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I'm so.
I am seeing.
I am talking to a doctor every month.
As you should.
I do too.
I'm gonna start seeing atherapist again, but I'm not gonna

(01:18:50):
do EMDR this time.
Only because I feel like lasttime I did it sometimes it can pull
up a lot.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I wonder you would think aboutthat, Melissa.
Well, I don't think you haveto do emdr.
I do think you sh.
I think it would be good ifyou saw somebody who does train spotting.

(01:19:10):
Yeah.
Brain would be fine, but brain.
So all of those traumamodalities, whether it's brain spotting
or somatic experiencing or agood internal family systems person
or santre, like, they're allgoing to bring up your shit, but

(01:19:32):
I don't really think thatyou're going to have good therapy
if you don't want to bring upyour shit.
That's true, too.
It doesn't have to be emdr,but I would say a trauma modality.
I can feel there's some fearbehind that because.

(01:19:53):
Okay, so I know that I have alot of shit, and I know what that's
done to me in the past.
I don't want to do that again.
And so, like, do you feelfearful that, like, if you have to
bring up shit again and, like,try and work it out for a third time,
that it will lead to the severity.
No, I'll be honest.
The reason that I was.
That I even said that isbecause the.
The guy, the.

(01:20:14):
My nurse practitioner that Ido see, he had said something like,
you've kind of got a lot right now.
Uh, oh.
I said something to him aboutthe EMDR being kind of taxing and
exhausting for me last time Idid it.
But I also.
It was also, like, really goodfor me.
Like Melissa said, you haveto, like, dig up the.
And go through the hard stuffto be able to get better.

(01:20:37):
Like, you don't have.
So not every session is timeto dig up the old stuff.
Okay, like that, like.
And if you have a therapistwho's like, we have to EMDR every
session and we have to do theold work and not focus on the right
now, that's, I would say, nota great therapist, or at least I

(01:20:58):
wouldn't want to see that.
They're interesting.
So, like, if you were myclient, going through what you're
going through right now, like,when you're in this moment of dealing
with this stuff, you deal withthis moment, this stuff, and then
as you get a little fartheraway from it in the, you know, several

(01:21:18):
months out, then it's like,okay, well, you know, now that we're
getting a little bit morestable, are we ready to kind of connect
some dots?
Are we not ready to.
I mean, I.
I never make anybody deal with any.
Like, even if I know that theyhave something to deal with.
So.
Yeah, like, even if.

(01:21:38):
Like, because they've told mein their, you know, history or whatever,
you know, maybe every sixmonths, I'll be like, so remember
that thing that we haven'ttalked about yet?
Or do you want to talk abouttalking about it?
And if they say yes, great.
And if they don't say yes,then we don't.
Because, like, there aretherapists who will thrap you.
Right?
Like, don't, don't, like,don't do what you don't like.

(01:22:02):
It's your therapy.
You take control of it.
If you're like, no, I am hereto talk about my current divorce.
Maybe later we can deal withthis, but right now, I'm here to
talk about my current life transition.
Okay, cool.
Then.
I mean, when you're in a lifetransition, like, yeah, your life
transition is not time to beconnecting the dots to your parent

(01:22:25):
issues that's going to.
Stack on to what you'recurrently dealing.
With like, okay, that actuallycan fit on your plate.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense to whatmaybe Dr.
Appling was trying to say.
So it's not don't go to anEMDR therapist.
It's don't do emdr.
Or if you're going to do emdr,like, you can do EMDR about your

(01:22:46):
divorce.
Like, yeah, you can do recent,current, and even, like, I'm really
scared about, like, this thingthat's coming up, like the finalization,
or I'm scared about whateveryou can even do.
It's so.
But you.
You.
You can keep it focused on the.
Right now.
Okay.
I'm really glad you said that,because I think I did take it to.

(01:23:07):
Oh, I just don't need to bedoing EMDR right now.
Whereas I bet you 100% that we.
What.
What you just said is morewhat he meant because he did kind
of say, you know, it's.
Let's.
Let's not dig up other things.
Let's just focus on.
This is kind of what he had said.
So that doesn't.
Trauma specialists,considering your history, don't they

(01:23:30):
know.
Yeah.
And a good trauma specialistis going to understand that balance.
I mean, I'm not going to say,like, why is that?
We've all been to mad there.
Right.
And I don't, you know.
Or I say therapists that werenot a good fit for us at that time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That makes sense.
But, yeah, so that's kind ofwhere I am.

(01:23:52):
So I would say third time'sthe charm.
And going through another.
Well, we know.
Going through.
No, we're saying three.
Three.
Three times the charm.
You're not going through,like, what you went through.
That's true.
That's true.
Because each time I've gotten.
But, like, what Walker said isthere's the.
What did you call it?

(01:24:13):
It's an S word.
And grieving period.
I feel like this is asituation where you could end up
in that situation.
Not an S word.
Ambiguous.
Ambiguous.
Not a C word.
Ambiguous loss.
Yeah.
Like, I could see that youmaybe would start to go through a

(01:24:34):
problem even though you'relike, yeah, this isn't a me problem.
Like, I'm good.
No, thank you.
You.
I promise you're gonna agree,yeah, there's grief.
And I think that also isn'trecognized because people are gonna
be like, no, you should havebeen doing this.
Like, why are you.
That's so true.
Going through divorce can betricky because.
It'S like, they weren't good.

(01:24:55):
That.
But well.
And also, like, if you're theone doing the leaving.
Some people are like, well,why are you sad?
You're the one that left.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
But it is sad.
Like, I didn't get married soI could get divorced.
And I loved this person.
Yeah.
And I still love this person.
What is interesting is in ourlast episode that we recorded, you

(01:25:21):
remembered and recalled andtalked about a time where this husband
and did something very, verysweet for you by writing you that
entry.
And I was like, he did that.
And it, like, kind of justlike, really reminds you, like, there's
good.
They're not a bad person.
Yeah.
They're going through a badtime and it's just not.

(01:25:44):
Yeah.
Cohesive to exactly what isright now.
But, you know, it's okay tosay you're not a bad person.
It's just, we are not working.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that would be sad.
Yeah.
To remember this was great atone point.
Yeah.

(01:26:05):
And what could be.
Or what.
Yeah.
What was so.
But anyway, that's my mentalhealth journey up until now.
And I know it's going to benever ending.
Like, we're always trying togrow and be better.
Right.
So while you are not the firstone on this podcast that has shared
about trying to unlivethemselves, so I think that, one,

(01:26:25):
you're not alone.
Yeah.
Two, it is very vulnerable andbrave to.
To share that.
Well, thank you.
Very deep.
And I know from personalexperience that it's not easy to
talk about hard stuff withyour parents and, like, feeling,
especially when they're alive,like, being able to be honest and

(01:26:47):
be like, yeah, no, we.
We have some problems.
Yeah.
And of course, thevulnerability of just, like, how
deep and, like, traumatic anexperience is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm not even sure where toend it.
I feel like I brought us ontoa downer.
But no, you guys are not alone.
So to me, this is like anormal conversation.

(01:27:08):
Like, that I have, like 10times a week.
She is.
I am the trauma whore.
Do I need to do Trauma HorrorPart three?
Is that what this is?
So I remember I was tired.
So we live in an equestriancommunity and I'm really good friends
with my neighbor and we trailride around our neighborhood a lot.

(01:27:32):
And I remember having thisconversation with her.
I don't even know.
Like, to me it was just like anormal conversation and, like, I
was totally talking aboutsuicide and passive thoughts of death
and, like, all these thingsthat, to me are just like the most
normal.
And I'm just like.
And she's like, that was a downer.

(01:27:52):
And I Was like, what?
Why?
She's like, suicide.
Really?
You don't think that's a downer?
I was like, actually I thinkit's really normal.
Like, doesn't everybody have ahistory of suicidality?
Like, she's like, no.
I was like, yes.
Okay.
Actually I'm really glad thatyou said that.
Yeah, no, that's really funny.

(01:28:12):
She's in denial.
Everybody in my world has ahistory of suicidality.
And so maybe I'll throw outsome like, just like some history.
So please.
When I was a baby therapist,so before I.
When I was pre licensed.
So you've got to get two.
So in Texas it's 2,000 hours,a thousand hours of which has to

(01:28:37):
be face to face.
And then a thousand hours canbe like, you know, doing your notes
or whatever you're doing and.
And as if.
Oh no, it was three.
Sorry.
It was 3000 hours.
1500 face to face.
1500 it is.
It took like three yearsbecause I wasn't working full time.

(01:28:58):
And 750 of those hours had tobe couples and families because I
was, I'm a family therapist.
Whereas LPCs don't have tohave the couple family hours.
So to get more hours and toget more money.
I did crisis for mhmr, thatsame place that you went.
And so what MHMR does is ifsomebody is in crisis, crisis defined

(01:29:21):
as suicidal, homicidal orpsychotic, and if they don't have
insurance then, or if theyjust like call the hotline, then
we go.
I remember you having to do this.
Yeah, I mean, was a terribleexperience because like I'd have
to get up at three in themorning and go to the mental hospital

(01:29:43):
and assess people like on call.
Yeah, I did, I did weekends oncall and.
But I mean it paid good moneyand I got a lot of hours doing it.
And the most important thingis that the experience that I got
from it, like I kind of thinkeverybody should have to like every
mental health professionalshould have to have some like, I

(01:30:05):
feel like there should be arotation where you have to do.
Because the experience that Igot from it was so incredibly valuable.
And about 90, at least 90% ofthe people that we assessed were
being assessed for suicidality.
And then a very small, I meanI think it was only two or three

(01:30:26):
people the whole time.
I did it for a year and a halfwere homicidal.
And they were not scary, bythe way.
I want to put that out there.
We were assessing them forsuicidality and I did not feel scared.
And I just want to like Kind of.
Oh, that's an interesting.
And I've had one.
I've had one client in privatepractice who had homicidal or two.
And I want to say homicidalitysounds really scary, but even though

(01:30:48):
I haven't did a ton, it's notas scary as it sounds because at
least all of the ones that Idid, people were, like, very aware.
They weren't just, like,gonna, like, go postal on the nearest
school.
It was like they.
They thought about it, butthey weren't going to do it.
It'd be more scary if theyweren't aware, I guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(01:31:08):
And then the.
The ones that were the most uncomfortable.
Uncomfortable for me to workwith were the people with psychosis.
But anyway, all that to goback to say, I don't know, can I
maybe share some interestingstuff about suicidality?
So would that be helpful?
Yeah, I actually do have aquestion, too that I think is extremely
helpful.
I.
Everyone says if you'resuicidal, like, call this hotline,

(01:31:32):
but I think a lot of peopleare actually scared to call the hotline
because who is it gettingreported to?
So, like, is it really thatconfidential to call the suicide
hotline and safe to, like, belike, hey, I am, like, feeling like
I need to kill myself.
Like, or do they call the copson you?
Like, what.
What is that?
Is it safe?
Okay, so that's a really good question.

(01:31:54):
I will share with you.
I have.
I screenshotted, like,resource that was on one of my therapist
pages of groups that you cancall that don't call the police,
because, yeah, they will takeyou in handcuffs.
Right.
And sometimes it's not helpful.
So my experience with theNational Suicide Hotline, I wouldn't

(01:32:17):
tell anybody.
Don't call it.
But, like, they put you onhold forever.
What?
Yeah, I.
I've never had anybodyactually, like, get through, like,
oh, yeah.
So I will say the one that Ireally, really, really like, Trevor
Project, which is specificallyfor young LGBT people.

(01:32:40):
But the Trevor Project, youcan text them, you can call them,
you can, like, chat, like, ontheir website.
And they seem to be really good.
They're pretty well funded.
And I almost, like, I don'twant anybody to abuse the system.
But at the same time, like,I've had the most success with people
contacting the Trevor Project.
So maybe you're, like,bisexual that day.

(01:33:01):
If you need a reason.
You have to be within thecommunity to call, like, for suicidal
thoughts.
Or could you just be.
I don't.
I don't know.
Like, I don't want it, like,it's for LGBTQ young people, like,
so good at what they do.

(01:33:21):
So good at what they do thatmaybe, maybe if you called them,
maybe they would be like, hey,here's a resource that's more appropriate
for you.
Or maybe you just tell themthat you're an lgbt.
I don't know.
Like, I don't want to be like,but they're good.
Like, they, they handle it appropriately.
So, okay, I'm gonna call them.
I'm gonna call them.

(01:33:42):
Well, only if you're suicidal.
Like, don't.
But to get the scoop, like,hey, just.
Oh, yeah, like, like, callyour, like, main number if you have
insurance.
And if you want to go to themental hospital because you really
feel unsafe and you reallyfeel like you might benefit, then

(01:34:04):
you can just go to yournearest private mental hospital and
give them your insuranceinformation and admit yourself.
If you don't have insurance,you probably need to go through whatever
your area's equivalent of MHMRis because there is probably a state
or county resource that willpay for that for you.
Now, they aren't going to payfor the seven to 10 days that insurance.

(01:34:26):
Is going to pay for.
If you have insurance, though,you should know, and you probably
don't know that there is anintermediate step between regular
therapy and inpatient.
And it's really.
There are actually twointermediate steps.
One is partial hospitalizationphp, and one is intensive outpatient.

(01:34:46):
So the partial hospitalization programs.
Yeah, that's what the other Pis, partial hospitalization programs.
Those usually come with apsychiatrist and medication management.
And.
And a lot of these are online.
Not the inpatient ones, butthe PHPs and the IOPS a lot of times
are online.
And like PHPs, you'll havelike your weekly check in with a

(01:35:09):
psychiatrist.
They tend to be like, maybeall day, Monday through Friday, you
know, like a work day.
And those are a lot more likeskills based.
Like, they have skills groups,they have process groups.
Whereas if you go to themental hospital, they're really.
Most mental hospitals are not.

(01:35:30):
They mostly do med managementand they keep you from killing yourself.
But yeah, I feel like they'rejust trying to get you under control.
Yeah.
Like, and if you're not, like,at the point of killing yourself,
if you're just like, I wouldrather be dead, but like, or I'm
thinking about being dead, butI'm not, like, gonna do it, or like,
I'm thinking about doing it,but I'm not gonna do it right now.

(01:35:50):
Don't.
Probably impatient is not yourbest, best fit.
Probably IOP or PHP is abetter fit for you.
So I did do intensiveoutpatient care after the second
time in Texas, after I cameout of the hospital then.
And I would say that wasactually really beneficial.
Yeah, a lot of group therapy.

(01:36:12):
You did group some one on one?
Yeah, yeah.
I've had people have.
I've never had anybody have a.
I've had a lot of clients hadbad experiences in the mental.
In the inpatient mental hospital.
I've had a couple of peoplewho have had like, okay.
Ish experiences.
People tend to have positiveor not worse than neutral experiences

(01:36:35):
with IOP and php.
So like I really.
If you, especially if you haveinsurance, then you may not have
IOP or PHP as an option.
But if you have insurance andyou're like, not okay, I would look
into that first.
If you're.
I don't know if Pathlight isonly in Texas, but the one that I've

(01:36:57):
had consistently good resultswith in Texas and it's online is
called Pathlight Behavioral Health.
And I don't know if it's onlyTexas or if it's in other places,
but I'm like, do Pathlight.
Path light's amazing.
And they do.
It's like three hours, threetimes a week for their IOP and it's

(01:37:18):
like, it's a good program.
It's a combination.
Combination of CBT and DBT andtheir skills groups and like their
process.
Like, I really, I really like.
Okay, so the other thing Iwanted to say about suicidality is
I'm going to actually sharethe risk of harm assessment that
we did at MHMR because I mademyself a cheat sheet because it was

(01:37:40):
such a good assessment and Ididn't want to ever forget it.
Like I had it really memorized.
Is this an assessment that wecan do on ourselves, like when we're
trying to assess like where we are?
Or is this like a mental.
Like a therapist tool?
No, like this is not for.
This is not a personal.
This is a therapist assessment.
But okay, okay.
That I wanted to share some ofthe thing that's.

(01:38:03):
Some of the things that's onit so that people understand kind
of.
Like.
What goes in to suicidality.
These are kind of the thingsthat, like if an assessment is being
done on you to determine yourrisk, like these are things.
And this is going to be kindof insightful because you'll be like,
oh, I didn't realize that thatwas maybe part of this.

(01:38:23):
Or I didn't realize.
Right.
So this.
So it's a very holistic biosocial it's like.
It's a biopsychosocialassessment, meaning it takes into
account all the things, right?
Like your family, your job,like, everything.
Okay.
So we would assess for yourpassive thoughts of death.

(01:38:45):
So passive thoughts of deathand suicidal thoughts are two different
things.
Passive thoughts of death islike, I wish I didn't wake up in
the morning.
I want to just disappear.
I wish God would take me.
But you're not going to do it,but, like, you don't want to be here,
and you just want to, like, disappear.
My clients have passivethoughts of death.
Like, I don't think I have aday where I don't talk to somebody

(01:39:06):
with ptod.
Like, I feel like PTOD is alot of people's baseline.
And if that's you, I would saydefinitely get on meds, definitely
get on therapy.
And usually medicine therapywill probably get you to where you're
like, okay with living again.

(01:39:26):
You probably don't.
If you want to do IOP or php,you could.
But to me, passive thoughts ofdeath is a get on meds.
More normal than we might think.
Suicidal.
It's a.
To me, it's everybody.
Like, I.
I don't know, like, not.
Not everybody.
Like, once they're in therapyand on meds.
But, like, pretty mucheverybody at the start of therapy

(01:39:47):
is like, yeah, I'd rather not be.
Yeah.
I mean, I also specialize in trauma.
Right.
So that's not everybody whogoes to therapy, but, like, yeah,
my people.
So taking into account that,like, how long has this been going
on and how often is it.
Is it all the time every day,or is it, like, fleetingly a couple
times a year?
If it's fleeting, like, acouple of times a year, you know,
that's not as big of a deal.

(01:40:07):
If it's like, all the time,every day you're like, I want to
disappear.
I want to not be here anymore.
And then suicidal thoughts.
If you're actually havingthoughts of like, okay, this is how
I would do it.
This is when I would do it.
That to me is, let'sdefinitely be on beds.
Let's a take.
Definitely be in therapy.
Let's talk to our therapistabout if we want to and if we, like,
have a plan.

(01:40:28):
Like, this is the thing I'mgoing to use to do it.
I writing goodbye notes to my family.
Like, okay, like, if you'rewriting goodbye to your family, you
need to go to the hospital.
Like, yeah, has.
Go.
Do not collect $200.
Go to the hospital.
Okay.
We would assess for homicidalThoughts, I don't come across that

(01:40:49):
very often.
So cutting or other types ofself harm are not the same as suicidal
thoughts.
They are a risk factor thoughbecause like if you are self harming,
you are more at risk.
But they're two differentthings and I want people to know
that they're two different things.
That makes sense if you've hada previous attempt.
So the way I see it is likethe lowest that you've ever been.

(01:41:11):
It's like yeah, you kind offill that up.
Like it like however deepyou've dug your hole, you fill that
back in as you do all yourmental health things.
But like that dirt isn't ascompact as like the dirt around it.
And so like to your lowestagain kind of relatively easy.
So lowest and then making anattempt, it's not that hard to get

(01:41:36):
back down to being at suicide.
Right, right.
And so it's previous attemptsare definitely a risk factor.
You know, just be aware of that.
Yeah.
Preparatory acts, like givingthings away, writing notes.
If you're doing preparatoryacts, please go to the hospital.
Having access to guns, it likeincreases your risk because people

(01:41:59):
don't usually like peoplemight survive, like cutting, like
suicidal cutting or they mightsurvive taking pills.
But usually people don'tattempt if they're using guns and
usually like less like moreoften complete suicide if they are
using ropes.

(01:42:20):
So you said attempt, but Ithink you meant succeed.
It's called completing.
Completing suicide.
Okay.
Yes, but I probably awkward.
So yeah.
So access to guns.
If you are having suicidalthoughts at all, please don't let

(01:42:40):
yourself have access to guns.
Like give them to a friend,have them in a safe that you don't
have the code to.
Like guns and suicidality,please, please don't mix them.
I will also say alcohol andsuicidality are, are, do not go together
either because you're a lotmore likely to attempt drunk then

(01:43:01):
you are.
I'm not encouraging to anyoneto do anything illegal, but people
don't very often attempt whenthey are high.
But they do.
People will attempt whenthey're drunk, when they're not otherwise
suicidal.
So avoiding alcohol and alsolike mixing alcohol with like benzos

(01:43:21):
or narcotics, like again,please stay away.
And I understand like ifyou're suicidal you probably want
to drink, but if you could usesomething else to dissociate that
isn't alcohol.
And I'm not encouraging you todo anything illegal but like weed.
I mean they tried to put me ona benzo.

(01:43:41):
I don't drink, but they triedto put me on a Benzo.
After the dog died.
Well, but that's okay.
Oh, I don't know.
I was scared.
I didn't take it.
That's a differentconversation for a different day.
I personally, I, I thinkbenzos, rescue meds are fantastic.

(01:44:02):
Oh, okay.
I got scared and I didn't kill it.
I, I mean, I, I love benzos asa rescue med, but you can get addicted
and so you do have.
To, you want to like stay on it.
Take them as do.
Do Take them as prescribed anddon't exceed your prescribed dose.
For sure.
But I mean, they're great.

(01:44:23):
I mean, if you're having a panic.
They have a place.
Yeah, they have.
I, I am all for Klonopin for a panic.
I am not a doctor, though, andI can't say that.
Talk to your fiber and follow their.
Yeah, okay.
History of abuse and trauma.
Huge risk factor for suicidality.
We know this.
I don't, I mean, I don't thinkanybody here or anybody listening

(01:44:46):
to your show is going to be.
Guess right.
Yeah.
Specific risk factors that wewould assess for are hopelessness,
purposelessness, not having asupport system, or not wanting a
support system.
Like being alone.
I just want to be alone.
Having either a lack of copingskills or coping skills that are

(01:45:09):
negative, such as substancesor you know, what you would call
like your negative coping skills.
Like, yeah, compulsive type behaviors.
Another huge risk factor ishaving lost someone to suicide in
your life.
So if you maybe lost, even ifit was like 15 years ago, but like

(01:45:31):
having, or you lost a friend,losing someone to suicide definitely
increases your risk.
Disturbed thinking, which canbe associated with psychosis.
But things like paranoia canincrease your risk.
If you have a previous mentaldiagnosis, even if it was like, oh,

(01:45:52):
I haven't had a diagnosis ofwhatever since I was a teenager,
it still increases your riskfor right now.
Are we talking about just likea diagnosis of anxiety or depression?
Are we talking about psychosis?
Right.
Oh, oh, oh, I thought you had psychosis.
Oh, no, no, no.
Sorry.
Diet.
A diet.
Previous mental diagnosis.

(01:46:14):
You know, like, if you've hada history of like, oh, yeah, I've
been diagnosed with this andthis and this and this and this.
And I don't know what mycurrent diagnosis is, but like when
I was in eighth grade, theytold me I had this.
When I was in 12th grade, theytold me I had this.
Okay, right.
Like all, like some peoplehave that history.
That's a risk factor.
Poor physical health can be alittle bit of a risk factor, but

(01:46:37):
your, your biopsychosocial Stuff.
So your family situation, doyou have a supportive family?
Do you not have a supportive family?
Are you going through a divorce?
Are your parents getting divorced?
If you're a kid, do you have a job?
Do you like your job?
Or are you losing your job?
Or are you, like, working 100hours a week and only getting paid

(01:46:57):
for two of them?
Level of education can be.
Can be associated.
Right.
Like, but also, like, is yourlevel of education, like, creating
perfection?
Right.
Like, so, yeah.
And obviously your housingsituation, are you homeless?
If you're homeless, you'redefinitely more at risk, right?
Yeah.
Or are you under housed inwhatever way that is?

(01:47:21):
And like, what kind of supportdo you have?
So, like, maybe you don't haveany family, but maybe somehow you
magically have some financial support.
Okay, well, that's a littlebit of a protective factor.
It's not the biggestprotective factor, but, like, so
that biopsychosocial stuff,family, job, housing, support, because

(01:47:43):
those are your basic structure needs.
Right.
So all of that stuff is kindof goes into how much of a risk there
is.
The biggest risk is, have youhad the thought, I want to kill myself
today?
And if you have that thoughttoday, you need to get help.
And if you are thoughtfrequently, you need to get help.

(01:48:08):
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
What I was thinking as you'regoing through this list is like,
I remember starting with mytherapist, and then I feel like every
other week she would, like,read through a lot of.
Not a lot of them, becausewe've had already, like, read through
them.
But there was asking, like,oh, is there a past of, like, abuse,

(01:48:32):
like, trauma abuse?
Is there a history of, like,do you know anyone who's been suicidal?
Like, things that I thoughtwas really weird to ask, like, how
is this.
Like, she was doing the sameassessment that I have right here.
Yeah.
And I.
And I had no idea because,like, asking in different words than,
like, what you just used, but,like, essentially hitting all of

(01:48:53):
those, like, marks.
And I remember just thinking,like, why aren't like, this.
Why is she asking me that?
This doesn't make sense.
But I do remember she got tothe job.
Like, she.
I remember her saying, how doyou feel about your work environment?
And then I just startedbawling and I was like, I don't know
why I'm coming.
So then it turned out that,like, I, like, do feel sad and feel

(01:49:14):
like my past job had let medown and that I was really holding
onto a lot of trauma from that.
And so that, like, gave ussomething to, like, kind of Go off
of.
Of, like, well, that doesn't help.
Like, because then that's whatled you to the ideas of suicide.
Like, I didn't realize.
I didn't really know thedifference between passive.
What's the passive thoughts and.

(01:49:35):
Yeah.
And what's, like, an actual risk.
Don't delineate between thetwo, although to me, they're very,
very different.
But.
Yeah.
Yes.
So I remember her asking thesequestions and thinking that was really
weird.
And then the work thing cameup, and then that stemmed, like,
obviously, like, that was abig spiral of realizing, oh, there's

(01:49:56):
actually a lot of, like,suicidal thoughts than what I realized.
But, like, just a compound of things.
And I would have thought that,like, it was normal.
Like, if you're contemplatingsuicide, like, that you are, like,

(01:50:17):
already going through theprocess of, like, oh, this is where
I would do it, because I wantto make sure the kids or, like, husband
doesn't find me.
This is how I would do it sothat, like, I'm not inconveniencing
anyone.
And, like, I thought that thatwas, like, normal.
Like, passive thoughts that,like, aren't a big deal.
That's active when you get tothat point, that's a little bit more
active.
Yeah, I didn't.
I thought that was passive.

(01:50:41):
I mean, what's normal to us isnormal to us.
Yeah.
So it was just interestinghearing, like, you say, like, no,
no, no.
If you, like, have a plan of,like, this is how I would do it.
And where, like, you need helpright now.
And I didn't get help until itdidn't get serious enough to get
help until later.
Like, much later.
Like a year later.
So.

(01:51:02):
So you were talking about thejob and Interesting study came out
a couple years ago, and I'msorry, I can't cite the study.
I don't know.
It's fine.
But afterwards, if we want tocite it.
But a study came out a coupleyears ago about how much your job,
specifically your manager,impacts your mental health equal

(01:51:25):
to your spouse.
Whoa.
And it was more.
I think it's.
I think all of us here wouldsay, of course it's more than your
doctor, but your job impactsyour mental health more than your
therapist.
I mean, is that really that crazy?
Because you spend about it.
You spend most of your days at work.

(01:51:45):
Like, most of your day is at work.
Yeah, you're right.
But I mean, it was.
It's cool that, like, a studycame out that measured it equal to
your spouse more than yourdoctor or therapist.
Huh?
Yeah, I had spousal issues andWork issues.
That's great.
Yeah.
So, I mean, definitely.

(01:52:08):
Well, it's gotta.
It plays a big part into yourself worth too.
Yeah.
And like you said, sense ofpurpose, I think was one of the things
that are hopelessness, purposefulness.
Yeah.
I felt like it was a waste ofmy time.
Like, you let.
Are you still around?
Yep, I'm still here.

(01:52:29):
It was like a waste of my time.
Like, I spent a year buildingthis into something beautiful, perfect,
very functional.
And then I had a baby and wasgone for like a month and a half.
And you've destroyed it.
And your words to me are, youcan fix it again.
You can make it great again.
And I'm like, you guys were sobad that a girl got mauled by a dog

(01:52:49):
and sent to the hospital.
Like, how can.
I'm not gonna fix that.
Like, you guys messed up.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Wow, that's.
Thank you for sharing all that.
No, like, really expectingthat, but that.
Kind of ties everything.
It did.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Well, I.
I was like, I wonder if I needto like, prepare anything.

(01:53:10):
I was like, I guess not.
I'll just show up.
We're winging it.
Yeah.
Now, just to kind of put, Iguess as an ending thought and just
to kind of put it all intoperspective, you're saying that it
is normal.
What I heard you say is thatit's normal for everyone to at some
point feel a suicidalidealation at some point.

(01:53:33):
Is that what I heard?
I'm saying it's super common.
Well, sometimes when we saythe word normal, we kind of mean.
We kind of interchange theword normal with healthy.
And I wouldn't say, oh, okay, okay.
Healthy.
Right.
Like, I would say it'sprobably a lot common than people
realize, but if you're havingthoughts of wanting to die, please

(01:53:54):
get help.
Like, yeah, Ideation isdifferent than a passive thought
too though, right?
Yeah.
And the other thing I want tosay around that, some people, some
therapists still do it back inthe day.
The kind of standard of careif you told your therapist that you
wanted to die is they would.
You would sign a contract thatyou wouldn't kill yourself.

(01:54:16):
Which is dumb, right?
Because it's probably saved acouple lives, but it hasn't saved
a ton of lives becauseyourself, like, why would your contract
with your therapist like itreally it.
That contract was to cover thetherapist's ass more than got you.
What they need to do is belike, you will traumatize my children

(01:54:37):
forever, and if you do, I willkill you.
So right like, and I.
That's a little different.
It worked.
That's the support.
So like your therapist isn'tyour primary support system, but
the people that you're listening.
Right, exactly.
And you have a lot moreattachment to these kids than you
do to an adult therapist thatyou see for an hour a week.

(01:55:01):
Right, but what, whathopefully if you, hopefully if you
tell your therapist thatyou're having passive thoughts of
death or suicidal thoughts isthey will do a safety plan with you.
And a safety plan is.
And if you use your safetyplan, they work now, obviously.

(01:55:21):
Okay, you know, don't use yoursafety plan then.
It's not going to do anything.
What's the safety plan then?
A safety plan.
Glad you asked.
This actually could reallyhopefully help someone.
And what would you say?
Like, do we know statisticsabout like the safety plans?
And like you can find.

(01:55:43):
Yes, there are statistics outthere when they validated this safety
plan and I'm so sorry, I don'tremember the exact name.
It has a special name andthey, they studied it.
This is the one that I learnedwhen I worked for mhmr.
And yes, there are statistics.
They're really good numbers.
And also like probably overhalf of my clients have safety plans

(01:56:05):
on file with me.
I mean I do have like oneperson who has like a lot of like
her baseline is passivethoughts of death because of her
trauma.
Her trauma and like the stuffgoing on in her life.
She works her safety planreally well.

(01:56:25):
Like, I mean she checks inwith me.
Like I have my own scale.
It's not a scale thateverybody uses.
So the numbers.
Oh yeah, I think you sharedthat with us once.
Yeah.
Okay.
So like she'll like check inwith me frequently and be like, this
is where I'm at today.
This is where I think I mightget to.
And like she put herself in.

(01:56:46):
She like got herself becauseshe lives alone.
So she like went to a friend'shouse for it was several days because
she was like, I don't thinkI'm safe to be alone.
Like, so she works saf planand because of like extenuating circumstances
in her life, we're like, wedon't want to have to put you in

(01:57:08):
the mental hospital.
Like, I don't really wantanybody to go, but like I extra,
extra didn't want her to goand she extra, extra didn't want
her to go.
And so she's like superproactive and I mean she is the queen
of the safety plan.
And we have probably avoided alot of problems because she uses

(01:57:28):
her safety plan.
So.
Well, I will say my therapisthas like, I don't think she calls
it a safety plan, but it'slike this made up scale that we made
up together basically.
And so like I and Simon knowthat if I.
If you like, if we're in asuper stimulating, stressful situation
that if I say I'm a five outof five, then that means we need

(01:57:49):
to.
I need to have like a d.
Stimulizing moment.
Like I need to go de Escalize.
Yes, my sins.
You've seen it.
Um, but if I get to a seven,like that's dire.
Like whatever we're doing,we're leaving right now.
Because once we get past a 7to 8, 9, 10, I will have a seizure.

(01:58:11):
So.
So like we have numbers ofevaluating where I'm at.
I mean that's not this.
But that's a safety.
I mean that's a safety plan of sorts.
And it does work.
It.
Most of the time it does work.
Yes.
I can look at him and be.
Or he'll look at me and belike, hey, what's your number?
And like I'll say a number andthen we'll decide.
Okay.
Well that means we're supposedto do this now.

(01:58:32):
Wow, that's actually reallyalso very supportive of him.
Oh yeah, we might have to golike ASAP.
No, I think we have to bethere at 3:30.
Are you serious?
Yeah.
So we need to go.
Go shoot.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, that's okay.
Did you like the episode thatyou heard today?

(01:58:52):
Great.
Share it with a friend.
And don't forget to rate and review.
Sam.

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