Navigating Neurological Mysteries with Dr. Carolyn Taylor

Today Samantha and Melissa share a captivating conversation with Dr. Carolyn Taylor, author of Whispers of the Mind and a neurologist with intimate experiences and profound insights into the complexities of neurology and trauma.

The discussion touches on Samantha's experience of being diagnosed with non-epileptic seizures and the emotional connections to such conditions. Dr. Taylor delves into profound examples of patients exhibiting functional neurological symptoms due to stress and past traumas, such as a man developing paralysis and a woman going blind.

The role of therapy animals, like Dr. Taylor's dog Prancer, takes center stage in highlighting their intuitive capabilities. This amazing conversation concludes with Dr. Taylor's tips for effectively advocating for oneself in medical settings, emphasizing the importance of being listened to and the significance of second opinions.

The episode is both educational and touching, aimed at helping listeners understand the intricacies of neurological and psychological health.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
What's up?
Skirts up, squad.
Did you just take my wine?
I did.
It's Samantha and Melissa.
I'm going to actually tell youguys how it is right now.
It was so fun.
We couldn't even make it up.
I'm gonna do it.
I'm gonna wear it in public.
And then she looks at me andshe goes, that's what Jesus is for.

(00:23):
We are about normalizingthings that are hard to talk about.
I was like deer in headlights.
Skirts out, but keep your pant.
Hey guys, it's Samantha andMelissa and we are going to keep
this intro really shortbecause we are going to be sharing

(00:43):
with you guys a conversationthat we had with an amazing woman.
And there was just not asingle thing that was even worthy.
Yes.
I mean, not even cut worthy,like if that sounds bad, but like
not even a single thing thatlike just could have been.
Like, it's just.

(01:03):
It was all so great.
It was nothing non inconsequential.
It was all like valid goodinformation and she is just a genius.
Like, yes, she.
She diagnosed me, I swear.
And I know technically shewouldn't like it probably if I said
that because she's like, no,I'm not your doctor and I didn't

(01:24):
see you in person, but.
So I'm not saying.
But I'm saying, yeah, it waslike a little.
Yeah.
But anyway.
Oh, that's so funny.
Yeah, it kind of reminded meof something that like Melissa Walker
would say.
I'm not saying, I'm just saying.
That'S hilarious.
But it's true.
So.

(01:44):
Yeah.
So did you have any A failthis week?
We'll try to keep it.
Not really a fail.
It's.
We both have had a hecticcouple of days.
My cat that I'm in love with,he passed away a couple of days ago.
So I didn't get a lot of timewith him, which was a bummer because
he was so cool.

(02:06):
But that's okay.
He just.
I don't even know what happened.
And that's okay.
We buried him in the frontyard near my flowers.
And.
I mentioned last last weekthat we were going to see if Simon
remembered our anniversary.
And I was convinced he did notremember it until last night before

(02:28):
bed he made a comment.
Is today your anniversary?
Today is the anniversary, yeah.
Oh my.
Shoot, I see.
I said that already.
Happy anniversary.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So he did not forget.
And we are going to have.
I'm going to make a chicken.
Like a Cajun chicken Alfredowith like sausage and spinach tonight.
And then we're going to do achocolate fondue at home with the

(02:49):
kids.
That is so sweet.
That was his idea.
It was my idea.
But he did say last night,it's our anniversary tomorrow.
Yeah.
Because I was like, what do you.
What do you want to do.
Do for dinner tomorrow?
And he was like, I don't know.
What do you want to do for dinner?
And then I just, like, lookedat him, and he, like, is looking
at me.
And he goes, I asked you.

(03:10):
And I was like, why did youask me?
Then I was like, okay, I get it.
You didn't forget.
That's cute.
That's cute.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you had a really hectic morning.
It sounds like I did, Oliver.
We were at a friend's house,and we slept over.
And this morning, I was out inthe living room just kind of, like,

(03:33):
picking up my stuff, gettingready to go.
And he ate what I found outlater was a roach trap.
A little bait motel thing.
And long story short, we'rejust gonna monitor him.
But it was a good two hours ofstress and, like, phone calls and
googling and.

(03:55):
Which you also learned thereally, like, stupid, unfortunate
part of when they're.
Poison control.
Yes.
Poison control.
I was gonna share that, but Iwas afraid of taking too long.
Okay.
No, I think that.
That a lot of people don'tactually know, like, how shitty that
whole thing is.
So.
Yeah.
So basically, I was talking tomy vet, and she was just like, look,

(04:18):
if it's this one ingredient,then this is what we would do.
But since it was this otheringredient, it's more toxins.
Toxic.
You should call Poison Control.
Or we can do it for you.
It is $95.
You can call them yourself.
So I called myself, and thenon the phone, it was g. It was like
a recorded message, and itsaid, okay, it's going to be $85.
And I was like, okay.
So I saved myself $10.
Great.

(04:39):
But then it said, but ifyou're not an actual vet, like, we
in the state.
No, it said, if you live inthe state of Georgia, we cannot talk
to you about your pet.
We have to talk to your vet sowe can start a case and send it to
your vet.
And I just hung up.
Because I was like, this is ridiculous.
I'm not paying $85.
If I'm gonna pay the money,I'll just have my vet do the whole

(05:00):
thing.
Right.
Because they won't talk to me.
Yeah, and you're gonna have todo a visit anyways.
Like.
Well, and that pissed me off,too, because it's an emergency number.
How is it, like, treatinganything like an emergency if you're
like, oh, we're starting a case.
Yeah, pay us.
Yeah.
It's bizarre.
I never understood.

(05:20):
I never understood it becausethere's poison.
Control for humans, and it's free.
Oh, yeah.
That's how I ended up in thehospital the very first time.
But that's another story.
You guys have heard thatstory, but yeah.
Yeah.
It's just crazy because it's.
It's your baby.

(05:41):
You're all stressed.
It's an emergency.
Poison control needs to be,like, a.
A 501C type.
I think so.
Yeah.
Because it's not.
If it's an emergency, it's an emergency.
We're not sitting here.
Pay for us to tell you if it's toxic.
Like, that's.
That's stupid.
Even if I had to pay, sure, whatever.

(06:01):
But don't say, like, I can'teven talk to you.
We're just going to start acase, and then we'll start, like,
a whole bureaucratic chain of events.
Like, that's just ridiculous.
Yeah, it's wild.
Anyway, I'm glad he's doingwell now, and I hope that he continues
to do well.
Thank you.
And I'm glad.
You probably need to tell uswho you're holding in your arms,
because you mentioned thatJinx has passed, but, yes, Jinx died.

(06:26):
And then the other kitten thathad shown up, Karma, she just got
really, really needy, like,loud, following us around, scratching
at the door, meowing.
But then if we pick her up,she doesn't want to be held.
She just wants down and thenjust Merls at us again.
And it's like, I don't knowwhat you want.
So Simon goes, I think sheneeds another friend.
And so he made me get another kitten.

(06:47):
And this is Cosmo.
I mean, Cosmo is freaking amazing.
I.
Most cats or kittens, yes,there's some cuddly ones, but it's
more on the rare side.
Usually they're cuddly ontheir terms when they want to be
held.
And I feel like you're, like,the one in charge of this, and you're

(07:08):
like, hey, I want to hold you.
Come fall asleep in my arms.
And he did.
Yeah.
He's so sticky.
Cute, Sam.
He loves you.
Pretty sure he's out, so.
What do you mean out?
Oh, sleep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So anyway, well, I'm glad that you.
So we're.
We're all in a good place fora minute.
Yeah.

(07:30):
Yeah.
Probably a good time to turnit over to the doctor, the professional.
That's right.
I don't think there's anythingmore interesting than neurology and
the brain and, you know, howthe brain and emotions work.
No, but it is mainly interesting.

(07:52):
Oh, I think she's being serious.
I am, Yeah.
I thought you were beingfacetious, and I was like, no, it
is.
Yes, it is.
So riveting.
Had a neurologic symptom then,you know, and you've been down that
road of trying to find a doctor.
Yeah, exactly.
You've got enough neurologistsand some people wait three to six

(08:12):
months to get a consult, and it's.
It.
It can be challenging.
Ooh, that's interesting yousay that, because I forgot I was
going to meet with aneurologist, and it was that.
Long out of a.
Of a weight.
In the end, my insurancedidn't cover what I was hoping it
would, and I didn't go, but wow.

(08:36):
Yeah.
I guess there's just not asmany of you.
Yeah, there's not as many of us.
Right.
Is it because it's just sodemanding and it's my.
Yeah, yeah.
I just remembered my cousin'sa neurologist.
Oh, okay.
Well, you know, neurology isone of those fields in medicine where

(08:56):
you either love it or you hate it.
And people often hate itbecause of the intricacy of knowing
the whole nervous system andstudying it.
And there's a certain kind ofbrain, I think, that is drawn to
neurology.
It's people that like to solvepuzzles and people that like to intellectualize

(09:19):
concepts, as opposed to asurgeon that wants to do something
with their hands and startsomething and finish it and then
be done with it.
Right.
I talk about different personalities.
There's a dermatology personality.
There's a surgeon's personality.
There's a personality thatlikes more complex intellectual pursuits,

(09:40):
where you're going to spend anhour just getting a history from
the patient to put thingstogether and more.
The oncologist, therheumatologist, the infectious disease
specialists, neurologists,they're people that are using their
brains as opposed to beingmore procedure oriented.
Yeah.
Neurology would drive, forinstance, a person with a typical

(10:02):
surgeon's personality.
It would probably drive them crazy.
They just want to fix it andcan always just fix it.
In neurology, it's interesting.
There's probably.
There's so much still researchgoing on even that we don't know.
Right.
Tremendous amount of researchgoing on.
Every day there's somethingnew in neurology, and we're learning

(10:23):
more.
And our MRIs are getting moreand more sophisticated, so we can
see things that we couldn'tsee before.
You know, we can seefunctional problems with the brain.
We can see where one part ofthe brain isn't lighting up as well
when you do a task as another.
So you can kind of seeconnectivity in a brain, and not

(10:43):
everybody's connectivity isthe same.
Okay.
And whereas before, when weonly had structural MRIs, like in
the early years of MRIs, wecould see if there was a structural
abnormality, if there was atumor, if there was a stroke, we
could see those things.
But now with functional MRIs,we can see what part of the brain

(11:08):
you're utilizing when you do a task.
Oh, my goodness.
The connectivity between partsof the brain.
And it's interesting when wetalk about something like functional
seizures.
These are seizures that occurthat are not epileptic.
In other words, they're veryreal, just as real as any seizure.

(11:32):
They're out of the control ofthe patient like any seizure, but
they're not due to anelectrical disturbance.
And these are what, Sam, youwere having, right?
I think so.
Right.
Psychological, Non epileptic.
Yes.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yes.
So.
But they are real seizures.
They're just not coming from,like, misfiring neurons or what would.

(11:54):
Maybe I just completelybutchered that whole sentence.
Coming from abnormalelectrical activity.
So, okay, filled withelectrical activity.
And when someone has a seizureand there's a spark, and then the
whole brain goes up in thiselectrical storm.
And if we are doing an EEGwhere we're recording brain waves,

(12:15):
all of a sudden, instead oflike this, it starts to fire like
this, and it makes all themotor nerves in your body start to
contract and shake and youlose consciousness.
When you say like this, you'retalking like fireworks.
Yes, like fireworks.
So when someone has anepileptic seizure, which is a seizure
due to abnormal electricalactivity of the brain, our brain

(12:38):
is filled with electrical activity.
So that's how we.
We function.
We have more electricalactivity when we're awake.
When we're asleep, it slows down.
Okay.
And when someone has aseizure, there's a disruption in
this electrical circuit.
And all of a sudden there's a spark.
Like a short circuit.

(12:59):
That spark happens, keeps going.
The whole circuit goes up inthis electrical storm.
And that's not compatible with consciousness.
Interesting.
I actually would have.
I don't know why I would have.
Thought it would be the opposite.
Like, oh, there's a spark andthen it goes dead.
Like, but really, it's like,maybe Too much is.

(13:19):
Yeah.
Electrical storm.
People start to shake and havewhat you see as a convulsion.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
What was really fun when I hadthe video EEG is like those things
pick up every little movement.
So like if I picked up a pen,like you would see like changes in
the, in the, I don't know.

(13:40):
The brain, the motor area.
Yeah.
Wow.
Every blink, like it wouldlike make another like tick of some
sort.
And I was like, whoa, that's interesting.
I don't know how anyone couldread this.
That amazing burst ofelectrical activity, it stops and
then the brain has to recharge.

(14:00):
So the electrical activitythat was like this gets really slow
because it's recharging.
And that's what we call apostictal state where after seizure
people are very tired and theywant to sleep.
Their brain is almost asleep,they're tired and they've got to
recharge.
How come I experience that,like pre.

(14:22):
Precal brain, like where I'mvery tired, I'm very cold, like I
got to sleep it off, warm up.
That's a good question.
If it wasn't from neurons inyour brain.
Yeah, well, it's.
They can absolutely mimic 100%a true epileptic seizure.
And we don't exactly knowexactly why.

(14:44):
But getting Back to the MRIs,now that we have functional MRIs,
they have shown that in.
People then manifest theirstress in the form of something like
what we call a functional ornon epileptic seizure.
That's like a stress response.

(15:04):
We find in these functionalMRIs that the emotional part of the
brain where you feel emotionsand you deal with emotions isn't
connecting well to the area ofthe brain responsible for consciousness.
Okay.
You can be stressed and notknow you're stressed.

(15:25):
You know, some of us will say,oh, I just feel so stressed right
now, I just want to scream.
Or I'm going to go.
Or I'm going to find someother kind of coping mechanism.
People that would have thistype of response, they don't know
that they're stressed.
Or maybe they might, theydon't realize they're at the brink

(15:46):
of overload.
Overload where it's like acircuit breaker is thrown and they're,
they're overloaded and they'renot consciously aware of it because
their emotional part of thebrain isn't communicating well with
consciousness.
Oh, that makes sense.
Because it did take a while tofigure out before you get to this

(16:07):
level, how can we de.
Escalate.
And I was like, I don't know.
I Feel calm.
I.
Like, I don't know.
Yes, exactly.
You don't, you don't know.
Whoa.
It reminds me of like, peoplewho don't have the sense of like,
touch and feel and they toucha burner or whatnot.
That's the, like, you hearthat all the time.
Like they'll touch a burnerand they won't know and they'll have
a burnt hand.
And it's like you have no ideawhat's going on until it's already

(16:31):
too dangerous.
Yeah.
No one has ever explained thatbecause it was really confusing how,
like, literally I'm calm.
But like, one of the thingsthat I was able to pick up is even
though I'm calm, is noticingthat, like, if I'm at a table with
a bunch of people, all of asudden I realize that, like, everyone's

(16:51):
moving slower than I knowthey're moving and I see their mouth
moving, but I'm not able toprocess what they're saying.
And so I was able to startbeing like, oh, that's not normal.
Oh, I probably need to remove myself.
Yeah, exactly.
Like, you're not conscious ofit, but something's happening to
you.
And now you're recognizing thesymptoms and signs as it's happening.

(17:12):
And you can try to developother coping mechanisms.
Okay, I'm overloaded.
You might not even know whyyou're overloaded.
You might, you might be in a.
It's like when someone has apanic attack.
They're not, they don'tusually have a panic attack when
they're in the throes of an argument.
They're going to have thatpanic attack when they're sitting,

(17:33):
eating popcorn, watching amovie with a friend.
So true.
Yeah.
And they were like beforegoing to meet the person maybe you've
had an argument with before.
Yes.
But they're overloaded for avariety of reasons.
It can be low grade stress inyour life.
It can be old trauma that younever consciously dealt with, but

(17:53):
it's still there.
It's, it's in, it's in your subconscious.
And it doesn't take much thento tip you off.
Some little thing couldhappen, something in traffic or.
Things didn't go well thismorning with getting your kids off
to school.
And it's just like the strawthat broke the camel's back.
Some little thing happens and you.
Somebody might fly off thehandle and why did, why are you so

(18:14):
angry?
And they don't know, but it's.
They just got to the, the edgeand they couldn't take anymore.
And so this person has.
We all have a circuit breakerthat's going to tip us off.
And everybody has a differentthreshold and a different way of
feeling it or manifesting it.
But most of us can consciouslyfeel, oh, I've got to de.

(18:36):
Stress, I've got to dosomething else to remain calm.
But someone that has one ofthese reactions, we call them functional
because they're.
It's functioning as.
Functioning as exactly.
That's, that's.
That's such a good way to say it.
Sam.
Yeah.
And so I was, I was.
Had a conversation with Samthe other day and I was, you know,

(19:00):
sharing with her.
I've family members that I have.
I have a brother who has twochildren, three children.
And two of them have had thiskind of reaction.
And so, you know, you mightthink one of them was the non epileptic
seizures when she got stressed.
The other one developed blindness.

(19:23):
So he was functionally blind,but yet he wouldn't bump into things.
But he really couldn't see.
And he was in Afghanistan andsaw his best buddy blown up by.
And it started after that andso he'd go through periods where
he was doing okay and then allof a sudden he couldn't see.
That's awful.
It would be when he wasstressed and I'm thinking.

(19:45):
And his sister would developthese seizures and she went for years
and years without them.
And then she went.
Her father died and she wentthrough a divorce and all of a sudden
they started up again.
So she had these extrastressors and it wouldn't take much
to tip her over back intothese seizures.
But once you recognize it andyou know, and I'm wondering if it

(20:09):
isn't something genetic whereboth of them didn't have the right
connectivity between theiremotions and.
And their conscious awarenessthat they.
Yeah, because that'sinteresting that it's the same family.
Two children.
It is two children, butdifferent reactions.
And they're both completely normal.
I mean they're normal psychologically.
They have jobs and familiesand everything else is normal.

(20:32):
Right.
Well, I feel like the sunmakes sense because I feel like that
is, you know, a normalizedlike big trauma.
And like I, I feel like thatreaction makes sense.
But there's nothing that youknow of in the daughter that would
have been a normal quoteunquote trauma.
Correct.

(20:52):
Except you did say divorce,father dying.
But that was the second roundof it.
Got you the first round of it.
Her parents went through aterrible divorce like the war of
the.
And I think the kids were kindof caught in the middle and she's
the youngest and she just all.
She's a big stressor.
Yeah.

(21:12):
She just had started havingthese seizures and.
And I think, you know, therewould be another argument or there'd
be another, you know, havingto go to court, and she would just
have a seizure.
They looked real, and to herthey were real.
She would lose consciousnessand, you know, she ended up in Bellevue
in New York.
And they did all kinds oftests on her, and they finally discovered

(21:37):
doing the video EEG where shehad seizures while they're recording
the brain waves.
And lo and behold, there wasno abnormal electrical activity.
Wow.
Clearly coming from emotions.
But they're real.
They're as real as theepileptic seizures.
The difference is you can'tthrow antiepileptic drugs at them
and cure them.

(21:58):
They calm down the electrical activity.
What's going on?
You have to develop new coping mechanisms.
Yes.
And I shared with you howdevastating it was when the neurologist
was like, yeah, no, you'rehaving seizures, but it's not epilepsy.
I guess, see a psychiatrist.

(22:19):
So, like, that's gotta feel so.
Like.
Like a unmoored boat.
Like what?
Yeah, like, Melissa, I thinkyou saw me the day that I was told
that, and I was just like ahot mess.
Like, we couldn't even recordbecause I was just so devastated
and crying.
I was like, I don't even knowhow to take this.
Like, I'm just crazy.
So how do you.

(22:40):
I'm hearing you say that it'smore common, or at least in our first
conversation, that it's morecommon than we realize.
So how do you deliver thatmessage in a way that doesn't make
us feel more isolated and morecrazy and just more of something?
Well, I don't dismiss the patient.
I think there are situationswhere someone's had a traumatic brain

(23:03):
injury or they have ptsd, likemy nephew, from seeing something,
or they have PTSD fromsomething they don't remember because
they're so good atdissociating their emotions from
conscious awareness.
You hear that all the time.
Where someone had a traumaticevent and they don't remember it

(23:23):
because they dissociate.
It was so traumatic that theirbrain refused to remember or be consciously
aware that something washappening to them.
They would put self somewhere else.
Like a woman who's raped and.
And she just dissociates andpretends she's off doing something
else.
And then later she can evensee her attack her and not realize.

(23:45):
She knows there's somethingabout that person, but she doesn't
Remember, and these people,they just have that ability to dissociate.
And so someone could have hada trauma that they don't remember.
They could have PTSD fromsomething else.
It could be their personalitywhere they're absolutely have to

(24:08):
be in control of things andsomething happens in their life that
they couldn't control and sothey just dissociated from that.
I had a very interestingpatient that would go into status
epilepticus where she'd have aseizure that wouldn't stop, they'd
go on for hours.
And she was admitted to anintensive care unit multiple times.

(24:31):
Because status epilepticusfrom epilepsy can kill you.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, this happenedseveral times.
She was admitted to thehospital and nothing.
There was no, you know,confirmation that this was actually
a seizure.
And.
But what's, what is it aboutthis person?

(24:52):
She was in military, she wasvery highly functioning.
She was like in a high levelof the military.
And what it turned out to bewith psychotherapy was this woman
was diagnosed years ago withan aneurysm in her brain that was
inoperable because of where it was.

(25:13):
So this was something shecouldn't control.
She had the knowledge that atany time, a certain percentage per
year, it could rupture andyour aneurysm ruptures, that could
be sudden death.
And she knew this because shehad a family member that died of
a ruptured aneurysm.
She's diagnosed and then,well, there's nothing we can do about

(25:36):
it.
We're just going to make sureyour blood pressure never gets too
high.
But this is something she hadno control over.
And so she couldn't deal with that.
Not something that I can't manage.
I can't do this on my own.
And so she started havingthese seizures.
And so what happened?
And was found a neurosurgeonthat would go in and try to attempt

(26:00):
to oil that seizure, that aneurysm.
So she didn't have a risk ofsudden death, but she has now.
She's aware of her personalityof needing to control, to learn how
to give up some of thatcontrol that you can't control.
Everything in life right aboutwhere I am.

(26:22):
Yeah, everybody's different.
So.
But you have to with, withpatients that have these non epileptic
seizures, some of them havereal seizures as well.
And we're not capturing allthe seizure events.
So neurologists will oftenhold on to them and work with them
to be sure that, you know,there isn't anything else wrong.

(26:45):
Yeah.
While they're going throughpsychotherapy because ultimately,
psychotherapy is the treatment.
Yeah.
I feel like when I talk topeople, I tell them that I. I get
that this is caused by somesort of ptsd, which I have been diagnosed
with, and anxiety, with, onand off depression.
Like, I get it.

(27:05):
But what I found interestingwas that the first time it happened,
I was on a boat with thehumpback whales, like, in the middle
of the ocean.
That I can dream.
Yes.
I've been waiting.
I was trying to do that for,like, years, two years.
And so I was finally there,watching the moms bring the babies
up, getting their first breath.

(27:26):
And, like, it was just magical.
And I just remember, like,just being in this, like, overload
of awe.
And I remember crying and justbeing like, oh, my God, this was
worth the wait.
Like, oh, my gosh, it'sfinally happening.
And then all of a sudden, I crashed.
And so I really.
I think that that was a real one.
Like, how could something somagical to all of a sudden be, like,

(27:48):
crying and then, like, nothing?
Like, how could have that beenan overload?
You were.
I watched that podcast.
I know a little about this history.
You were stressed.
You were thinking, you know,your marriage was over, and, you
know, this was it.
You're going to be together.
And that was, you know, rightunder the surface.

(28:09):
Oh, so now you're letting go.
Oh, this is.
Isn't this wonderful.
But that stress is rightthere, just enough to tip you.
No, she was actually in touchwith her emotions first for a minute.
Yeah.
Maybe because she trustedthose good feelings.
And then the others came out.
Yeah, because they.
They were there.
They were underlying, and thatwas, you know, that was tipping you

(28:31):
over.
Yeah.
Interesting.
A safe situation, becauseyou're not taking care of your kids.
You're there with yourhusband, and now it can come out.
Okay.
Seizures are funny because they.
They are.
Your brain is going to protect you.
So I like to tell people that,like, the example of my nephew, that

(28:58):
would get blind, and thatyou're not going to burn yourself.
You're not going to fall over something.
You're not going to hurt yourself.
Like someone who really can't see.
You can't see consciously.
Mind is seeing, so you're notgoing to be in danger of hurting
yourself.
But we've got to find out why.
Why this is happening to youso that it stops happening.

(29:18):
I.
Can I share something really,really quick?
I had a situation probably, like.
Probably, like 15 years agonow, where it happened on two different
occasions where I did wentblind, and I was once this.
I was in Walmart and it.
It scared me then.
But the second one and I neveruntil this moment when you were talking

(29:41):
realized the second onehappened when I was driving on a
highway, like a back roads oldhighway, but it was still busy.
It was four lanes and I don'tknow how I pulled over.
And I think what you're sayingis I could still see on an unconscious
level and my brain protectedme, I was able to get off the road.

(30:03):
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it,but that's insane.
Sounds like a migraine.
That.
That's what we figured out inthe very end.
Yeah.
I had to go to a.
Yes, it was a lot of.
I went to every eye doctor andthen they sent me to an eye neurologist.
Yeah, a what?

(30:25):
A neuro ophthalmologist.
Yes.
Thank you.
So many sub characters.
I love it.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Interesting.
Okay, so I know that we talkedabout this briefly and in that episode
I also mentioned just howcommon epilepsy is misdiagnosed with

(30:47):
these functional seizures.
So how can someone who'sexperiencing these in doesn't really
feel like they're getting theresults that they need.
Like how do we rule that outso that we're not on Keppra for eight
years before we're like, oh,this just isn't working.
It's very important becausethe longer you go on with medication

(31:11):
for seizures that are nonepileptic seizures and they keep
happening, the harder it isdown the road to treat them with
psychotherapy.
So you lose a little time justlike someone that might be having
symptoms of cancer and someonesays, oh no, you're just stressed
and then come back in a yearif you don't listen to yourself and

(31:32):
go see another doctor.
You know, you might havewaited too long.
Whoa.
Is it because your body juststarts to like it's just going through
the motions in its habit?
Like why is it harder to treat something.
A seizure like that.
Those pathways get more ingrained.
Okay.
In your brain and you.

(31:53):
It's like you develop adefense mechanism.
Okay.
Or you do it that you more.
You just automatically revertto that defense mechanism.
Got you.
Wow.
It's a coping mechanism for stress.
And you don't want to learnthat coping mechanism.
You want to understand.
Okay, I'm feeling it now.

(32:14):
I'm not going to be scaredbecause I know what this is.
And like you're out with your friends.
You just.
I think I need to removemyself because I'm starting to feel
that stress.
I'm getting Cold.
You know, things are startingto get distant.
I think I'm going to gooutside and just take some deep breaths.
And what I think I'm learningalso is so being overstimulated is

(32:36):
a good, good trigger.
So, like, if I tell myself,okay, I'm going to a concert with
my friends today, there'sgoing to be a lot of flashing lights,
a lot of people, a lot of noise.
Oh, I hope I don't have a seizure.
Like, that's already pretelling my brain, like, oh, when
you hear all these noises andsee all these lights, have a seizure.
And so it's trying to beconscious about.

(32:59):
I can handle this.
Exactly.
Someone has a panic attack inthe grocery store, then when they
go to the grocery store again,that's where they're likely to have
a panic attack because they'rethinking, oh, no, oh, no, I'm afraid
to go in here.
Don't happen again.
Yes.
And so someone that's in anautomobile accident, they're afraid
to get back in the car becausethey're afraid in that car is when

(33:22):
I might, you know, just freak out.
So it's putting yourself backin that situation.
And at certain point, you needto keep going into those situations
to prove to yourself that, oh,I'm fine, nothing's going to happen.
And so a concert, brightlights, flashing lights, none of
those things should induce a seizure.
It all has to do with yourstress level.

(33:43):
And so doing everything youcan to manage that.
And for someone like you,you've got to be.
Learn to be more conscious ofwhat stresses you, because consciously,
you're not aware until you.
That circuit flips.
So is psychology what makesyou become aware?
Or, like, is it just somethingthat will just maybe never connect?

(34:09):
Psychology.
Do you mean getting therapy?
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
Therapy.
If it's a.
A stress that you've had inthe past.
So a lot of people, you know,you probably have no more stress
now than you always did.
You know, you're managing, youhave three kids and marriage podcast.
And, you know, life is stressful.

(34:30):
It's.
It just is.
But if there's something elsegoing on, like you're not getting
along with your husband, youthink, this might be it, this might
be the end of our marriage.
That's an extra stress.
And you might not be talkingabout it instead of talking about
it getting out in the open,you're both thinking, you know, when
is this going to end?
You know, what am I going to do?

(34:52):
For some people, you're justgoing along, and there isn't anything
Extra.
But you might have had atrauma in the past or grief from
the loss of something that younever dealt with.
Gonna come out.
It always has to.
That's in your subconscious.
Yeah.
Can I ask a kind of a para.

(35:12):
A close question, but it mightnot have anything to do.
I don't know.
You're talking about thingshappening in the past, us repressing
them or not remembering them.
Is that the same thing?
Is like when a young child.
Something happens bad to ayoung child, and then like later
they start having memories ofit, of it as they get older.

(35:35):
And it's like, where are thesecoming from?
This happened to me.
And so.
Okay, it is the same because.
And it's not just because, oh,I was too young to remember.
No, no, no.
It's the same that happens allthe time.
And patients that I deal with,and I'm.
I'm a neurologist, not apsychiatrist, but there's real interplay

(35:55):
between two specialties.
And we're actually bothpsychiatrists and neurologists are
double board certified in both fields.
Oh, we have to take.
We have to take.
Do our residency in both mine.
It's concentrated inneurology, but we have to do so much
psychiatry and take a doubleboard because there's so much.

(36:16):
There's so much interplay.
So when you have a trauma, you.
Especially kids, you know,they don't have the coping mechanisms
yet to deal with it.
When you're really young, theywill dissociate.
They will just brush it off,go somewhere else in their brain

(36:36):
and not realize it.
Because you hear all the time,you know, a woman is more likely,
for instance, to develop laterin life, chronic pain, and they don't
know where it's coming from orsome other problem.
And they find out by intensepsychotherapy that they were molested,
maybe by their stepfather, bya brother, by someone that they trusted,

(36:59):
and they had no memory of it.
They might be afraid of men,but they don't know why.
And it all has to do withsomething that happened to them.
And we know that that's morelikely to happen to a woman than
a male, although it hashappened to males.
But this, this is common.
I talked to friends of minethat do therapy on college campuses.

(37:21):
And people come in, they'rehaving trouble, and they have no
memory that anything everhappened to them.
And it's only through intensepsychotherapy or hypnosis that we.
I was about to ask if are youlike, a big component of hypnosis?
Like, do you really believethat that's a Helpful tool.
I do.
I. I don't do it, but I dobelieve it.
It's a helpful tool.

(37:42):
I had this patient that I sawthat was sent to me because he looked
just like he had multiple sclerosis.
Mine suddenly.
And he's young, and this isthe population that it comes in,
and he's otherwise completelynormal and healthy and psychologically
healthy.

(38:02):
He had been engaged to be married.
He was.
Had a good job in.
In construction, and just.
Just happened.
And all of a sudden, he.
He couldn't walk, and he gotmore and more stiff, and his limbs
were spastic.
And he woke up one day and hecould barely move his legs.
And then he was having troublemoving his arms, and he was getting

(38:24):
numb.
And when you watched him andwalking and trying to function, he
looked just like he hadmultiple sclerosis.
And so the bad thing was hehad lost his job, and so he had no
insurance.
And so I'm trying to figure out.
I'm calling the MRI facilitywhere you just do this for free.

(38:45):
This.
This guy really need help.
We have to get a diagnosisright away and.
And get him care.
And we did all the tests.
Nothing was there.
Nothing was there.
And so, you know, one thing about.
People that would bedevastating, too, I bet for him.
Because of play.
Yeah, it was devastating for him.

(39:06):
And so he.
He lost his job.
And so he decided he wanted tobecome a firefighter.
And he couldn't pass the.
The physical.
And he's a big, you know,healthy guy, couldn't pass the fiscal
for firefighting.
So then he decided he wasgoing to be a policeman.
And he went through all the training.
Couldn't pass the physical fora policeman.
It was crazy.

(39:27):
And then he started developingall these symptoms.
So I thought, you know, he'snot as concerned as he should be
about it.
He's like, has this dull affect.
You know, I'd be screaming upand down and, you know, help me.
Help me do something.
I can't.
I can't move.
I can't walk.
I'm only.
Yeah, so I'll do something.
He wasn't that alarmed.

(39:49):
And that's like a little tipoff that maybe this is functional.
And so I talked to him at length.
What happened?
Did anything ever happen to you?
What precipitated this?
Well, nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
I just wanted to changecareers, and I couldn't get anything.
So I sent him to thistherapist that I know who's just

(40:12):
fabulous, and they're hard to find.
Fabulous trauma at ptsd.
And she said, well.
And I said, you've got to seehim for free.
And said, when you see him,you'll understand.
He's such a nice guy.
You got it.
You can't put any more stresson him because I'll see him once.

(40:34):
But then he's got to borrowthe money or something, otherwise
he won't appreciate the visit.
Exactly.
So I get this call from her.
Oh, I'm going to see him every week.
I don't care how much time.
He's such a nice.
I just really want to help this.
This kid.
And so finally, she wasconvinced, too.
Something happened to him.
He didn't know what it was.

(40:54):
Nobody knew what it was.
So she enlisted hypnosis.
And as it turned out, rightbefore he quit his job, he was digging
underground into a big sewerpipe was blocked, and they were trying
to clear it out.
And as he got under in there,he got stuck.

(41:16):
Oh.
And he was stuck inside thislittle, dark, wet pipe.
And there were rats, and hecouldn't move.
He was under there for eight hours.
Holy smokes.
And he totally dissociated.
He came out and he was okay.
And he, you know, he survived it.
But then a few weeks later, hesaid, you know, I don't want to do

(41:36):
this job anymore.
I think I want to be a firefighter.
I think he didn't rememberbeing stuck for eight hours.
No.
He just remembered he had abad experience at work, and he just
did not remember.
He blocked that out.
Wow.
And that's not like a longtime gap.
That's just.
No, that was said just, like,two months earlier.

(41:57):
What?
Yes.
Yes.
And so with hypnosis, heremembered it because.
Hypnosis, your subconscious.
Yeah.
And as it turned out, this kidwas brought up to, you know, you're
a guy, be a man.
You know, don't talk about,you know, you have a headache or
anything.
You don't get out there.
Yeah.
And it was the family dynamicswhere none of them talked much about

(42:19):
their feelings.
And so he just learned tosuppress those things.
And he had forgotten.
He had completely forgottenthis event until it came out in hypnosis.
Wow.
Took months once he remembered it.
And in hypnosis, they said,you're going to remember this when
you wake up.
And he remembered it, and itwas frightening, but he then knew

(42:43):
what was wrong.
Yeah.
That's amazing, because it waslike he was in a tube.
He couldn't move his arms orhis legs.
They were just stiff.
And until he remembered it anddealt with that trauma, those feelings
didn't get better.
And he came to see me like,six months later, and he was walking
and feeling great, and he.

(43:04):
I just.
He had a new girlfriend and hewas going to be an EMT and got into
school and.
Wow.
His hypnosis and psychotherapyreally cured him.
Wow.
It's another.
Another example.
There's so many.
Yeah.
Things.
But it's real.
It's very real.
And if you don't get helpright away and get to the bottom

(43:26):
of it.
So if somebody said to him,okay, I think you have ms, but it's
just not showing up on yourMRI yet, we'll put you on Ms.
Drugs and we'll say, the restof his life, the rest of his life,
he would have been like that.
Oh, my gosh.
If you know something's wrong,if you feel it in your gut and you
don't feel like your doctor islistening or your doctor's frustrated

(43:50):
because they don't know what'swrong, you know, it's frustrating
for the doctor, too, thatthey'll say, well, it must be this,
and let's just proceed like itis that, because they did, too.
So that's how we end up on thedrugs for so long.
Because even though it's notshowing up, like, it has to be this,
because that's exactly what itlooks like.

(44:10):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Okay.
Your case, they thought, well,it could be frontal lobe seizures,
too, because we don't pickthose up as well on the eeg.
Yeah, that's what we thoughtit was.
Partial frontal.
Yeah.
And they are.
You know, these things arevery difficult to diagnose because
they look exactly like thereal thing.
They really do.
And people manifest the samesymptoms and they get the aura.

(44:33):
And you cannot differentiatethese by symptoms alone or even someone.
It's just wild that you wouldget the same.
Like, I didn't know anythingabout seizures.
So it's really weird how theywould manifest when I don't know
anything about seizures orsymptoms or, like, what they look
like and what's typical or whatever.
So it's like, how does ourbrain just not make it up?
But how does our brain, like,act like that when they don't even

(44:56):
know it's a thing?
It's kind of like youremotions short circuit the consciousness
center and they feed neuralinput right into the.
The motor center, which causesyou to shake and have seizures, beaten
up and get all these feelingslike you were having a seizure, but
it's not due to an.
It's not due to an electrical disturbance.

(45:16):
It's due to an emotional disturbance.
An emotional.
Sounds scary because, like,well, I'm.
Are you telling me I'm crazy?
But no.
Yeah.
Emotionally.
Just short circuiting consciousness.
Yeah.
Your brain didn't make it uplike your body was.
Yeah, yeah.
Taking on all the stress.

(45:37):
Yeah, I.
Yes, you're.
That is.
It's a lot.
It's still overwhelming andit's still like one of those things
where it's like kind ofsomething that you don't want to
talk about, which, like, Ifeel like is probably going to add
more trauma.
That's gonna have to getworked out.
When it's something that,like, I still am very uncomfortable
talking about because it'slike, it's still very uncomfortable

(46:00):
to explain to people.
Like, yeah, yeah, I. I hadseizures, but I don't anymore.
Are you on meds?
Sure.
Yeah.
Just drop it.
What I tell people is it'sbetter not to talk about it to people
because they don't understand.
Yeah, yeah.

(46:21):
Thing to understand.
And so if you tell somebody,it's like when someone is.
I tell people when they'refirst diagnosed with Ms. And they
look normal, they look just fine.
And we're going to get them onmedication and they're going to do
well today because we havethese wonderful medications.
If you get it early, I said,don't tell people right away because
as soon as you do, they'llsay, oh, I knew somebody, they were

(46:43):
in a wheelchair in a year and my.
My aunt had it and she died of it.
And because they don'tunderstand it and they're going to
scare you, they're going tosay suggestions, and you're going
to get terrified because youneed to understand it first.
Yeah.
Once you understand it and youunderstand you're going to be fine,
then you can easily share itwith people if you want to, because

(47:05):
what they come back and say toyou, well, you should be on medication
or you shouldn't drive or youshouldn't do this because they don't
understand.
Oh, that makes sense.
It won't bother you becauseyou do understand.
It says, no, no, no, it's notthat kind of seizure.
And she can educate them.
Yeah.
But until you're comfortablewith it and you understand it, it's

(47:26):
kind of just not let otherpeople affect you.
Does that make sense?
Right.
It's like, don't go straightto Google and get all of the.
Yeah.
I don't know.
It's not exactly the same, but yeah.
Okay.
So I'm sorry, I have got torun to the restroom really quick,
but Carolyn has.

(47:50):
That's what I was gonna say,but then I was like, too soon.
Seriously, my friends, like,my best friend, she has always, always,
always made fun of me for mytiny bladder.
And she's like, I just don'tknow anyone who has this, like, tiny
bladder.
And I literally, when I startgetting stressed or overwhelmed,
like, I have to pee.
And I have to pee right now.
Cannot wait.
But, Melissa, I want you tohear Carolyn's personal story of

(48:13):
how she had to fight forherself to get a correct diagnosis
and how she now advocates forpeople and helps people advocate
for themselves.
Thank you.
Yeah.
You hear that story?
I'll be right back.
Okay?
Okay.
Yeah.
Carolyn, please, because aswe've been talking about, like, if
you don't advocate foryourself, sometimes you're just going
to get lost in the hole.

(48:35):
You are.
And it's so hard for someonewho's doesn't have the medical background
because you just, you know,there might be a little, like, smirk
or a little just blank look onthe face of the doctor talking to
you, and they just say, no,no, you're fine.
Just lose weight.
Yeah, yeah, just lose weight.
You're just stressed.
Yeah.
So.

(48:55):
So as a physician who's beenhealthy all her life, I went for
my routine gynecological checkup.
Okay.
That's probably the onlydoctor I ever saw I would see regularly
was once a year I would go formy Pap smear and.
And just to take care of myself.
And I saw for many years, for20 years, another female physician

(49:18):
who was.
She was about my age, and wehad a good relationship.
And so it's physician to physician.
Yeah.
Went to her, this is fiveyears ago now, and said, you know,
I have.
I'm not fine now.
I said I was.
I know I always come in for aroutine checkup, but now I'm having
a symptom and I havepostmenopausal bleeding, which is

(49:40):
not normal, right?
No, no, it's not.
We need to do a uterine biopsyfor uterine cancer.
So it's a procedure you havein the office.
It's quite painful.
It is.
I had a different one, but itwas similar biopsy up in there.
And it was painful, very painful.
And so I went through that,and she said, you know, I'll call

(50:01):
you as soon as I have the results.
And results came back and theywere normal.
And I was relieved.
I thought, well, fine.
And she goes, yeah, you're fine.
And it stopped.
Six months later, it came back.
So I said, well, I'm going togo back.
So I went back to see her andI Said, you know, you're not used
to seeing me more than once ayear, but the bleeding is bad.
So she said, well, do anotherbiopsy and this time I'm going to

(50:22):
get an ultrasound, okay?
Biopsy was negative and theultrasound showed a polyp.
And she said, well, it's justa benign polyp, we don't need to
do anything about it.
And the bleeding went away.
So I thought, well, I put thisin her hands, I'm fine.
Okay.
Six months later, she's aboutto retire and leave here and I walk

(50:43):
in and she wasn't prepared,wasn't prepared for this.
She's getting ready to go.
She didn't want to seeanything that wasn't routine couple
days.
And I said, I'm back becausethat bleeding is back.
And she said, well, I'm notdoing another biopsy.
She said, you're fine, you'rejust stressed and you don't need
to see a gynecologist againfor a year.

(51:05):
I'm going to give you somenames of other people you can see
next year.
Here.
What?
Okay, I'm stressed.
We all live stressful lives,but no more stressed than I've ever
been.
Yes, everyday life stress.
And I, and I thought, well, okay.
And I wished her well.
And I'm thinking about it asthe week went by and I thought, you

(51:25):
know, something's wrong, Iknow something's wrong and I'm just
gonna take myself now to seesomebody else.
So I went and saw someone elseand they, they looked at all my records.
They said, oh, you should havehad a hysteroscopy, which is a scraping
of the uterine lining andremoval of that polyp as soon as
they saw that, which was noweight months ago, we're going to

(51:49):
do that right away.
So she does.
And so it's another woman physician.
I'm thinking, yeah, if there'sanything there, I'll get a call because
I have a two week appointment call.
And nobody called.
So I went in for my two weekappointment for the results.
And the interesting thing wasthe night before I went in, I had

(52:10):
a dream that I was in theoffice with her.
You know, we'll often dreamabout something we're going to do
the next day.
Anxious about it.
And I said, you were tellingme that I had a malignancy and I
know that I don't.
And she says, no, you don't.
And I said, he would havecalled me.
And she said, oh, absolutely.
And we were laughing.

(52:30):
And so she's looking at thecomputer as we're laughing and she
said, oh, wait a minute.
She said, your results aren'there and they should have been on
the computer.
So she had to call for them toget them faxed over.
So.
I'm so sorry.
Oh, no.
Yes.
She said, I'm so sorry.
You do have a malignancy.
That polyp was malignant.

(52:53):
Oh, my gosh.
I was in the or, like, withinthe week having a complete hysterectomy.
And the thing is that if thatcancer, it's uterine cancer, if it
gets through the wall of theuterus, then your risk of being alive,
you only have a 25% chance ofstill being alive in five years.

(53:16):
It's a devastating cancer for women.
And if it hasn't.
If it's still stage one andhasn't gone through the wall of the
uterus, then, you know,there's only.
There's a 95% chance you'll befine in five years.
And I'm.
Five years.
I'm fine.
Yeah.
Wait a year.
And I'd already beensymptomatic for eight months.

(53:37):
Whoa.
And so that's a womanphysician treating a woman physician.
I mean, she was in a hurry.
I understand she was in a hurry.
She didn't want to be bothered with.
We've got to work this up more.
What am I going to do?
I'm leaving.
You know, so maybe a littlebit of it was unconscious, but to
say to someone, oh, you'rejust stressed.

(53:59):
I never, never say that to a patient.
Because we are.
You know, people can bestressed, but it doesn't mean that
that's causing your symptom.
That's the common thing tobrush it off, too.
It's stress or overweight.
And those are the things thatdoctors always say.
Yeah, they always say, wow.
Yeah.
Which makes it really hard toget treated.

(54:20):
How.
When do you know to push back?
Kind of.
Because I feel like there'sthe fear of doctors not listening
to you and not reacting.
But then there's the fear ofthe doctors that are overreacting
just because they want to makesome extra money.
And so it's kind of hard toknow where you fall.

(54:42):
Yeah.
And, you know, I don't thinkso much that they're trying to make
extra money.
Some.
Some doctors overreact out of inexperience.
Younger doctors are likely todo more testing, whereas an older
doctor that's got a lot ofexperience is going to be targeted
right.
At the right test.
And we kind of sense whensomething is wrong that we can't

(55:08):
quite figure out.
But we know that there'ssomething to it.
And maybe that person isstressed, but there's usually something
else there that's drivingtheir symptoms.
And maybe they're anxious.
They're an anxious personnel.
So maybe they're reallyanxious because they have a symptom.
And how do you tease that out?
You have to find out what'scausing that symptom, and you have

(55:28):
to be sure you're not missing something.
That just reminded me that you.
You mentioned that you usedyour intuition a lot with your work
and what you do, and that youused your intuition and listened
to your dog one time.
Yes.
Yes.
What incredible story.
Should I tell that story?
Yeah, I know Melissa wouldwant to hear about it.

(55:51):
When you said, like, you know,you have to.
You have this, like, knowingwith your experience, I was like,
oh, my God, I forgot aboutthat story.
And that's, like, that'sreally cool.
Yeah.
I had this patient.
I had a therapy dog.
So Prancer is a goldenretriever, and she started coming
to work with me as a puppybecause she was chewing up my house,

(56:11):
and she had separation anxiety.
And so I thought I could justput her in my office.
She had toys, and she couldlook at the secret.
He'd be fine.
I could run in betweenpatients and take her out every chance
I got.
And then I'm doing that rightnow with a puppy.
He comes to work with me everyday because he's so much.
Yes.
Yes.
So she would howl when Iwasn't with her and all this.

(56:34):
And patients started hearing,what's that?
What's that?
Everybody heard I had a goldenretriever puppy.
Everybody wanted to see the puppy.
So I thought, how am I goingto stay on time?
Yeah, everybody's going to beplaying with the puppy, and I'm trying
to get an exam done.
So sure enough, she.
She sensed it, and she would.
Just as soon as I startedtalking to the patient and getting

(56:56):
a history, she quiet right down.
She lay right by their feetand was as good as gold.
And before long, I couldn't goto work without her because my patients
wouldn't come in if she wasn't there.
They'd call me.
Wow.
Answered there today.
If not, I'm rescheduling my appointment.
Oh, wow.
I took her and got her testedthrough Pet Partners, because you

(57:18):
have to get official testing,and it's like a insurance umbrella
where they.
They will cover your dog incase anything happens, and they have
to have the right temperament.
And.
And we got all the testingdone, so I could actually literally
Bring her in the hospital with me.
I could have her legally in my office.
Yeah.
She'd been with me now,working with me for 10 years.

(57:42):
And I would always.
She'd always gently scratch atthe door when I was with the patient
to ask if she could come in.
Oh, wow.
I would ask the patient, and95% of the time they said, yes, let
her in.
Every once in a while, someonewasn't comfortable, and they'd say,
no, I prefer not.
And then if I didn't answerthe door, she'd just lay down outside
the door.

(58:03):
But she didn't like it ifsomebody didn't want to see her.
Yeah, I'd walk out and she'dsee the patient.
Then she'd get up and walk away.
She'd be like, it was you.
You didn't want to see me.
I'm going to walk away.
So I had this lovely patientone day from Africa.
She had emigrated here fromAfrica about a year or two earlier,

(58:27):
and she had a book with her ofall the doctors she'd seen, and little
tabs.
And these are the rheumatologyevaluations, these are the orthopedic
evaluations, These are therehab evaluations.
And I've seen all these doctors.
Nobody can figure out what'swrong with them.
And she said, you're the laststop before I go to psychiatry.

(58:48):
She said, and she's very intelligent.
And she said, I had a lot ofsexual trauma growing up in Africa,
and I know that I can put thatinto my body and that that could
be what's wrong, but I justfeel like somebody's missing something
and I don't know her gut.
Yeah.

(59:10):
So I spent an hour with her,and I went through all the tests,
and there wasn't anythingneurologic, really.
Normal exam.
She'd had MRIs of her brain,spinal cord, everything.
And I went through everythingvery carefully, and I said, you know,
I'm really sorry.
I wish I could be more helpfulhere, but I think maybe you should
go at this point to psychiatry.
You've identified something else.

(59:30):
And I think all the testingreally is complete.
And so she hadn't wantedPrancer in there, and she was very,
very nice.
And she was leaving.
As she walked out the door andsaw this dog, she said, oh, my, she's
so beautiful.
I'm so sorry I didn't let her in.
And I pet her, and I'mthinking, oh, no, Prancer's gonna

(59:51):
just run away.
Answer.
Let her pet him.
Pet her.
And then she.
We said goodbye, and she wentout to the room, waiting room, to
sit there with the patientcoordinator and, you know, finish
up, and Prancer just followedher out.
And I tried to call her backand get her back in, and she wouldn't

(01:00:11):
come.
Wouldn't come to me.
She went underneath thiswoman's chair and did not leave.
This woman.
No way.
She said, you have to dosomething for her.
Something for her.
And I have lots of stories about.
This is just one.
So I knew Prancer.
Well.
Prancer senses something.
I don't.

(01:00:32):
So I went out and I said, youknow, I changed my mind.
I said, you saw arheumatologist six months ago.
And I said, why don't we dosome of that blood work again?
Because maybe, you know, youweren't in a flare then, and you're
in a flare now.
Maybe we'll pick something up.
Oh.
So I just repeated thestudies, all the blood tests the
rheumatologist did, and itcame back.

(01:00:53):
She had florid lupus.
And when she had the saw, therheumatologist, she just was in remission,
so.
Whoa.
And that dog knew.
Told the woman.
The dog diagnosed her.
And you never did?
Because I didn't.
Because it wasn't.
It wasn't neurologic.
But I called her.
I said, we're getting youright back to the rheumatologist.

(01:01:14):
You've got something.
Wow.
All these symptoms.
And so that was.
That was my dog.
And she.
What a good girl.
I know.
But that's still.
You can take credit for,because it's still.
You're like, oh, I shouldlisten to the dog.
It's true.
It was your intuition as well.
You're like, no, I need tolisten to this.
Like, you aren't too.

(01:01:36):
I don't know, too prideful, Iguess, to hear.
Hear the small people.
Yes.
Yes.
And I was so, you know, soglad that I did another story.
She was less Prancer story.
No, I love them.
She.
I was seeing this young manone day who was quadriplegic from
his neck down from amotorcycle accident, and there's

(01:01:58):
nothing I can do.
And his family, whole familywas there, and they were bringing
him to yet another doctor.
Is there anything you can dofor us?
They knew I couldn't make themwalk again.
But, you know, you.
You deal with their bowel andbladder issues and depression and
make sure they have all thesocial services they need, and it's.
It's all very sad.

(01:02:20):
Yeah.
And that day, I hadn't closedthe door to the exam room because
there was all these people inthere, and it was a little Claudic.
And this young man was sittingin the middle of the room in this
wheelchair, and I'd forgottento tell them there was a therapy
dog on premises.
So all of a sudden, this youngman looks past me, and I look and

(01:02:42):
I see Prancer.
I go, oh, I'm so sorry.
I forgot to tell you.
And he.
He just stopped me, said, Ilove dogs so much, I would give anything
if I could just pet that dog.
And with that, I didn't say anything.
Prancer just locked eyes with him.
She got up and she slowlywalked over to him, sat down next

(01:03:05):
to his wheelchair, put hermuzzle right on his hands, ate there
for the entire hour.
That's beautiful.
Everybody in that room was in tears.
He was in tears, I was intears, and that dog just didn't leave
him.
Oh, gosh.
So.
The power of animals.

(01:03:26):
I really, really believe it.
Yeah, I do, too.
I do, too.
Yeah.
That's why I'm so excited withwhat we're doing this year, Melissa.
Yeah, I am, too.
For people and provide for.
Did you tell Carolyn about Dr. Taylor?
About that?
I think we talked about.
It's a wonderful, wonderful idea.

(01:03:46):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Well, it was Sam's.
It skirts up.
I have, like, a. I don't knowif you want it to be the closing
question or not, but I have,like, one final, like, real burning
question.
How do we source out a doctor?
Because you talked about, youknow, there's some doctors that are

(01:04:08):
inexperienced.
There's some who have beendoing tests for years, and they're
more tuned in.
But I also feel like there'ssome who've been doing tests a year
that are jaded.
How do you just find the doctor?
How do you know?
What are the things to lookfor in a doctor?
To think, all right, thisone's going to work for me.
Or is there just no way to know?
And that's why we have to beable to advocate for ourselves.

(01:04:30):
Well, you want to feel likeyou're being listened to, okay?
Very, very important.
If you don't feel like you'rebeing listened to, if they're typing
away and not asking you anyquestions or not letting you get
it all out, then that's a bad sign.
So you want to feel likeyou're listened to.
You want to feel like theyvalidate you, that they not only

(01:04:54):
hear you, but they're presentand they seem to understand how you
feel.
Okay.
You don't want to be dismissedat all you don't want to say, well,
this really isn't that seriousof a thing.
To you.
It's serious if you're feelingsome symptom, you're feeling pain
or you're feeling weakness or.
Or twitching or something.

(01:05:15):
To you, it's very serious.
You want to feel validated.
You want to feel listened to.
It's very, very important thatthey examine you so often.
You will.
They'll won't even put astethoscope to your chest or they'll
er.
And they'll just maybe listento you through a gown.
And, you know, you can'treally hear that well if you dealt

(01:05:35):
with this stethoscope to the skin.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
You want to be.
If you.
They didn't even examine you,or they just didn't examine you and
they just ordered some testsand said, oh, well, we'll call you
and let you know.
That has happened so manytimes to me.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Very.
It's very important.
And if you just don't feellike their answer made sense or you

(01:05:59):
don't feel like you werelisten to or they told you it's just
stress without examining youor explaining to you why you have
symptoms.
If I get to that point with aperson, I usually try to say, you
know, the twitching of yourmuscles or the tingling you're feeling
is because your muscles are tightening.

(01:06:20):
And that might be tighteningbecause you're stressed, but validate
their symptoms because yoursymptoms are almost always real.
Okay, listen to.
In my case, I just knew.
I knew something was wrong.
And when someone turns to me,especially a woman, to a woman, because
a woman should understand stressed.

(01:06:41):
Well, stress doesn'tnecessarily cause bleeding.
And I knew.
Right.
Much more stressed in my lifethan I had been then.
I knew in my gut something was wrong.
Yeah.
And so you, you don't have tonecessarily call your doctor out.
They might be rushed, theymight be frustrated because they
don't really know what to do.
You get a second opinion.

(01:07:03):
Yeah.
And you don't have to beafraid of offending anybody because
it's.
This is your life and your body.
And a doctor should never be offended.
You get a second opinion.
I'm glad you said that.
Someone says that to me, I'dsay, well, you know, I think that's
a good idea because I'm notfinding exactly what it is.
And someone else might havedifferent experience than I do, and

(01:07:24):
they might have seen this before.
So I welcome a second opinion.
Okay.
Heads.
And the more brain power youput into a problem, the more Likely
you are to solve it.
So it shouldn't be insecure.
They should welcome that.
Or they should say to them, toyou, you know, I, I just not sure
I want to present this at thenext conference.
Oh, yeah.

(01:07:44):
Or I have a colleague thatmight have more experience.
Or.
Yeah, I'm going to give them acall and see if they would suggest
doing an additional test.
And I'll get back to you.
You want to feel like.
And at the end of an exam orpatient has a problem, I always say,
do you have any other concernsor do you feel like.
I answered all your questionsand if they have concerns, they don't

(01:08:06):
feel like their questions wereanswered or they feel like they're
dismissed.
That makes me feel bad.
I want to make sure that I'veanswered all their concerns because
that's what they came to me for.
And you do actually care.
And so I think you're saying,just listen to yourself when, you
know, when you're being heardor being dismissed.
Exactly.
You do.
And women get that so oftenthat I think we're afraid to challenge

(01:08:32):
them.
We're afraid to challenge to,you know, because women are at that.
Hysterical.
Yes.
Yeah.
Stereotype.
Yes, Stereotype.
You know, you're just being ahysterical woman and you're just
being too anxious.
By small.

(01:08:55):
To the mic, my.
My son did that with hisgirlfriend and he was saying, oh,
she's just anxious.
She, you know, she got thesefeelings and she gets this chest
pain and she, I think thisanxious mom.
I said, well, let me talk to her.
I didn't see her as a patient.
I said, yeah, and she'd seenall these doctors, mostly heart doctors,

(01:09:16):
because she goes to the er.
She gets these chest pains.
Yeah.
She keeps going to doctors.
He keeps saying that things wrong.
They do echocardiogram.
She's young and healthy.
Yeah.
Oh, you're just, you're just stressed.
This is just panic attack.
And so I really listen.
She took her partner over for dinner.
I really listened to her.
I said, okay, stand up.
And I had her put her arms outand I took her pulse.

(01:09:38):
And I said, turn your headthis way and turn your head that
way.
And I said, I think you have.
Because I'm experienced too.
Yeah.
This isn't stress.
This isn't heart.
You have vascular thoracicoutlet and it'll give you chest pain.
And when you're stressed,those muscles are going to tighten
up and.
And decrease blood flow.

(01:09:59):
She's getting numbness andtingling down her arm.
That's what I get.
And I said, that's what it is.
She goes, well, I've seen allthese doctors.
How could you do this in five minutes?
I said, trust me.
Go back, tell them you want avascular thoracic outlet outlet study.
An ultrasound.
What can they do for that?
That's what it was.
Physical therapy.

(01:10:20):
But have a diagnosis and thenyou go to a physical therapist to
know exactly what to do.
Interesting, because that'sactually the thing I went to the
neurologist for.
But then my insurance wasn'tcovering it.
They wanted to do some kind ofa test, like to, I don't know, see
what was firing.
What'd you say?
Nerve conduction study test.

(01:10:41):
Yeah, but you know, that'sonly going to be positive if you've
got nerve damage, so symptomsare constant.
The nerve conduction testmight show something, but if they
come and go, it's not going toshow anything interesting.
But it's vascular thoracicoutlet, and a young person's underdiagnosed

(01:11:04):
because there's nothing.
You know, X ray will lookfine, your studies look fine.
But they have to do thatultrasound with provocative studies.
Turn your head this waybecause the muscles will, will, will.
Yes.
That's literally what happens.
Certain positions.
Yeah.

(01:11:24):
What is it called?
Vascular.
She was blown off by everydoctor she saw.
And even my son said, oh, mom,she's just anxious.
I said, now let.
Let me listen to her.
Don't just say she's anxiousbefore for you.
That's incredible.
Yeah, before, you know.
Okay, I do have to say onemore time, what did you call that

(01:11:46):
again?
Vascular thrust.
Vascular thoracic outlet syndrome.
Outlet.
Okay.
Because one thing that yousaid is stressed or tired.
And my chiropractor said,well, yeah, you stayed up working
all night.
It's gonna.
You're gonna feel it.
And so that I started paying attention.

(01:12:07):
And it does come when I'm more.
It's with.
It's certain postures, certainpeople that have a certain anatomy
to their neck.
Sometimes you're doingexercises wrong.
If you're sitting, like typinga lot, that can.
That can kind of make thesemuscles tighten up.
And if these muscles heretighten up, they can put pressure

(01:12:30):
on the vasculature that feedsthe arm.
Just get chest and getnumbness and tingling.
It gets bad.
I'll drop things.
Like, I can't shave my legssometimes or.
Yeah.
So that I.
First thing I would do withyou is be that ultrasound.
The nerve conduction studywould be the last thing.

(01:12:51):
Interesting.
I'm so glad I didn't gothrough with it then.
Just money because it comesand it goes.
So that's a possibility.
Interesting.
Women have abdominal pain andit could be a ovarian cyst.
And they don't look, they justsay, oh, it's, it's your menstrual
period.
Or they, they blow you off.

(01:13:12):
But you want to make sureyou're heard, you're heard, you're
examined.
If you're comfortable thatthey listen to you and you addressed
all your concerns.
If you're not, they should becomfortable with you getting a second
opinion.
Okay.
Well, even when they seeassist, they just say, oh, yeah,
it's just going to be painful,but it'll rupture eventually and

(01:13:32):
it's just, you know, go withthe flow.
So I don't know.
Well, it depends.
Sometimes they can operate ona cyst if it's really painful.
And you're in and out of theER all the time.
Yeah, but you have to believethat that's what it is and know that
they really looked and they'renot just saying, it's just this.

(01:13:53):
Yeah.
And maybe ask more questions, like.
Yes, ask questions.
Yeah.
Like can you operate on this?
Or why do you say, is there atime when.
I don't know.
I guess just get more deep.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Okay.
Sometimes going in there withyour questions in advance, sometimes

(01:14:14):
you won't have any questionsyet, but they'll talk to you.
And maybe later, if somequestion comes up, ask them.
Okay, my chart today.
You can usually email somebodyif you don't have a follow up or
if you don't, you still symptomatic.
You could contact them andsay, I'm still symptomatic.
Do you want me to come back orshould I get another opinion?

(01:14:35):
And they, they want you totake care of you.
They want you to.
Yeah.
That's good advice too,because Sam, I think you are kind
of like that where you have toprocess things and then the questions
come to you later.
So like, no.
Yeah.
And then I just kind of shrug.
I'm like, oh, it's too late.
Yeah, but it's not too late.

(01:14:56):
We can email them, I guess like.
You'Re saying, yeah, it's nottoo late.
And well, this has been a great.
The doctor wants to know ifyour symptom, because they, they're,
if they think it's somethingand they're wrong, then they're thinking
you're going to get better.
So if you don't get better,the symptoms get worse, then they
would want to know thatbecause they would probably want

(01:15:16):
to do more tests.
Okay.
Okay.
You're helping because doctorshelp you, but sometimes they're rushed
or they.
They really think it'ssomething and they're.
They're missing the diagnosis.
And unless you come back with,well, it's still not better.
Doctor, they don't know.
And they don't know to keep looking.

(01:15:38):
Yeah, it's a partnership withyour doctor.
You're both trying to figureout what's wrong.
Well, thank you.
Yeah.
This has been so enlightening.
Oh, good, good.
Absolutely.
Well, thank you, Carolyn.
Or Dr. Taylor.
I'm so sorry.
I was probably too informal.
You.
You can call me Carolyn.
Okay.
Okay.
We're on BFF level now.

(01:15:59):
Are we, though?
I hope so.
Yes, absolutely.
So.
Thank you, ladies.
I really had fun.
Thank you.
And you have a beautiful day.
You, too.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye.
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