Sex Myths on Aging and Intimacy, Debunked By Dr. Stephanie Bathurst

In this episode of the Skirts Up Show, hosts Samantha and Melissa get valuable insight on relationship and sexual health by Dr. Stephanie Bathurst, a clinical sexologist and relationship therapist. Dr. Bathurst provides insightful advice on emotionally navigating different relationship models, especially ethical non-monogamy (ENM). Topics covered include the importance of secure attachment in relationships, the four essential S's (safe, seen, soothed, secure), and why open communication is key to a successful romantic partnership. She also details the benefits of regular sexual activity for hormonal balance and pain management, stressing the importance of addressing changing sexual needs as we age. The episode wraps up with a discussion about sexual health education for children, highlighting the need for open, non-judgmental conversations.

• Learn more from about Dr. Stephanie Bathurst
• Keep up with Skirts Up!
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• Check out our friends at One Soul Boudoir and book your free consultation through our link.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, you.
You're tuned in to the Skirtsup show with Samantha and Melissa.
Join our mission to normalizefailure, but still uncover the positives
at every twist and turn.
Skirts up, but keep yourpanties on.
What's up, Skirts Up Squad?
It is Samantha and your girl Melissa.
And we did it right that time.

(00:22):
We did.
Oh, that's hilarious.
That's so funny.
Because to me, there is no right.
And you're like, no, there isa way to do this.
No.
As the conversation has been today.
That is.
That is so funny.
No, I was referring to, like,the last episode that released and
you, like.
Jumped in and I said, I know,Substitute squad.

(00:42):
Okay.
And it really threw her.
Threw me for a loop, guys.
Oh, my God.
Is that my fail?
Talking about how you werekind of pointing out, but not pointing
out that, like, I. I felt likemy student or the students that I
was working with.
It sounds like it's your fail.
Let's share it.
Let's share it.
Okay.
Because now you have to tell.
Now I have to tell.
Okay.
So it goes with.

(01:03):
I was just explaining toMelissa that I was getting really
frustrated with the peoplethat I'm getting partnered with in
my RTT classes.
So now it's time for me topractice as a therapist.
And then in return, I'm their client.
And I was getting frustratedbecause they kept wanting to break
up the intake sessions fromthe, like, actual therapy session.

(01:29):
And.
And like, to me, that doesn'tmake sense because the flow of the
therapy session is going 20minutes, 20 minutes, going through,
like, the intake part, andthen you go into the hypnosis and
the therapy part and.
And all of that.
And so a 20 minute thingshouldn't mean that you need a whole
different day to do a 20minute interview.
Yeah.

(01:49):
And so to me, practicing theflow that you're going to do when
you're practicing, like,actually, like, being a practitioner,
you should do it how you'resupposed to do it.
Yeah.
Like, put yourself in the realactual, like, constraints that you
would be in.
And the point is practice.
So start timing yourself,making sure that you are hitting
the intro within the 20 minutes.
You know, like, start playingwith that and seeing, like, where

(02:11):
you're going.
And they're just all like, no,no, no, no.
Like, sessions will go threehours, and that's just far too long.
So we need to schedule threedays, one day where we'll both do
the intake.
So 25 minutes.
25 minutes.
And then where you're thetherapist day, and then where you're
the client day.
And I'm just like that.
I'm not going to do it that way.

(02:33):
I was like, okay, well, whenI'm the therapist, I'm going to do
it how it should be, where youdo the intake and the therapy session
all together, because flow.
And I want to learn andpractice the flow.
Yeah.
And Melissa just kind oflooked at me because I was like,
why are they being so difficult?
And I'm like, it's just the flow.
It's how it's supposed to go.
You do the intake and then youdo the session.
That's what we learned.

(02:53):
Melissa just kind of looks atme and politely doesn't say anything.
I go, oh, fuck, I'm the problem.
Got it.
But to be fair, I was not atall thinking that you were the problem.
I was just laughing insidebecause I was like, yeah, she just
has to.
Have her the rigid.
The rigid.
Yeah, routine.
Like, routine.
This is how it is.
Yeah.
We learned it in class.

(03:14):
Why can't they get it?
And then I was like, okay,well, maybe just try to be bend with
them a little bit.
But at the same time, once I.
Explained it to you, you werelike, oh, no.
That they're harming themselves.
Like, they're not practicing.
I agree with you.
Yeah.
But it was just really funnyto hear you say it.
That in such, like.
You heard it.
Yes, the way I said it and Isaw your face, I go, fuck.
That'S me being me.

(03:37):
Which you are.
Awesome.
So never fear, I'm down.
But yeah, so I wouldn't sayit's a fail, but it's kind of cool
because, like, you got like,it was you, like, seeing yourself
for a second and being like, wait.
And stepping back.
I heard it in your brain.
And being introspective.
She heard it in my brain.
That's so funny.
Yeah, that's what I say.
Yeah.
But do you have a fail or werewe talking about the trip that you

(04:01):
missed?
Oh, so I did share a fail, Ithink, in a previous episode about
how I missed the trip.
So I do want to ask you aboutthat, actually.
I was just going to say realquick for me, a fail.
Yeah, it.
And it's not even a fail, obviously.
They never are truly fails,are they, guys?
But for years, because this isfunny, though, Sam will understand

(04:24):
because she understands it ina different way than me or maybe
the same.
But for years, I was told tocover up my body.
And I was told, like, youcan't dress this way because one,
it's not appropriate.
But.
Or then as I got older andstarted kind of putting on weight.
Nobody wants to see your body,like, you know, out at the beach

(04:47):
or whatnot, or you shouldn'tbe wearing tank tops, your arms are
too big, things like that.
And so it took me quite a fewyears, but I would say in my late
20s, I was like, no, I know.
I don't have a body that I want.
I don't have the body that Ilove, and I'm working on that.
But I am gonna wear what makes.

(05:08):
Me comfortable, and you'regonna love the body that you do have.
I'm working on that.
Thank you.
So I wanted to share with you guys.
Okay.
I haven't worn it out inpublic yet, but I bought a bikini.
I did.
I did.
And you did wear it.
There's proof.
There's proof.
I wore it in my boudoir photo shoots.
One boudoir photography.

(05:30):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so I felt really cute in it.
Except, like, there's thisrole that I have on my stomach that
I just.
Well, there's two roles,really, but one of them won't be
hidden.
And I just.
You know what?
I am going to.
I'm going to do it.
I'm going to wear it.
I'm going to wear it in public.
And I'm so excited.
I'm going to just kind of tryto be like, you know what?

(05:51):
Yeah, I don't have a perfectbody, but I want to have fun.
Now.
I expect you to wear it whenwe're in Mexico.
I will.
Yes.
Yeah.
Well, we're going to Mexicotogether, so.
Yeah, that's a story foranother time, because we're still
planning, but we're doing it.
Maybe we'll bring you guyswith us, but who wants to bring work
to vacation?
We do, because we love our people.

(06:12):
Oh, my God.
Did that just come in my mouth?
Well, I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding.
No, love you guys.
I love the podcast.
It is a lot of work, though.
And this is.
Yes, you're.
Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work.
But.
But we'll probably have some,like, little clips that we can share.
Yes, absolutely.
Because we like to share with you.
Guys, but we're not even gonnago till next January or something.

(06:36):
Yeah, and there's a whole.
Another fun story to that, butanother time.
You'll hear about it in theupcoming season, which have you.
I don't know if you guysnoticed, but we do.
We have this episode comingout, and then we only have three
more episodes.
Holy crap.
Three more episodes for this season.
For the season.
And that's a wrap.

(06:56):
The last episode, what, likeAugust 17th, 14th?
Is that what the date is?
As I try and look really fastfor y'.
All.
Yeah.
The last episode of thisseason is August 14th.
Wow.
Yeah.
And then we'll be back aboutmid October.
My gosh.
We're doing it.
We're just rolling through the season.
We are.
And season four is going to be.

(07:16):
A breeze because we'restarting to get.
Pours of people asking to beon the show.
It's pretty cool.
It is.
So there's just so manyconversations to have, and I feel
like the more of them that wetalk to and we start recording because
we have began recording forseason four.
Oh, my gosh, you guys.
I wish so bad that it wasdropping sooner because I can't wait
for them to hear who we spokewith today.
Like, I had chills through thewhole conversation.

(07:39):
Yeah.
And in fact, when we finishedthat recording, we both looked at
each other and we go, we haveto do a part two to release right
after it.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, we're hopingshe's gonna.
Get on board with us.
Yeah, she will.
She will.
She's pretty cool.
Yeah, she's awesome.
Anywho, so I kind of wanted toask, because I did miss our girls
trip that went downtown todowntown Atlanta with you and Courtney.

(08:01):
Yes.
You were supposed to be with us.
I don't know if you guysremember that.
That, I think.
Oh, that was the last episode.
But, like, two episodes ago, Ithink you had mentioned missing.
Yes, that's what it was.
Courtney and I and Melissawere going to a strip club.
I'd never been to a strip clubin my life.
We hadn't either.

(08:22):
We hadn't either.
But, like, the ClaremontLounge, if, you know, like, Atlanta,
like, the Claremont is a staple.
It's a landmark.
I had never known this.
Yeah, I don't.
I don't know why I know thatsince, you know, strip clubs and
naked people, you.
But.
But.
Well, I don't want to say, butwhen I looked up the Clermont, it's,
like, not all really evenmentioned, really, about the strip
club.
It's more like it's an oldhotel from, like, the 1920s or something,

(08:44):
and it's, like a really weird,charming place.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so the Clermont is knownfor its unusual entertainment.
So these strippers, thestrippers, the.
The entertainers, they aren'tyour average image.
Wait, you mean everybodydoesn't just go to strip clubs?
That's not average.

(09:05):
I'm just teasing.
No, they don't look like what you.
Oh, you're talking about thewomen themselves.
So, yeah, the entertainersthemselves don't.
What do they look like?
So you have.
All right, just to paint apicture, okay.
The most famous entertainer there.
Her name is Blondie.
Okay.
She is 68 years old.
Oh, awesome.
And she has been at theClaremont Lounge for 47 years.

(09:27):
She actually celebrated her47th year as an entertainer at the
Claremont Lounge the day wewere there.
Whoa.
And what she is known for iscrushing beers with her boobs.
I hadn't told you that, did I?
No.
Yes.
And so that was, like,Courtney's, like, mission.
I'm gonna meet Blondie and I'mgonna have a can crushed in her boobs.

(09:49):
What the heck?
And we sure did.
She was the first person weran into.
She's so strong.
Okay.
So what we thought was thatshe's gonna, like, lift her boob
and, like, they're gonna behuge boobs and, like, crush it, you
know, like a hammer.
It's more of, like, a pullingthe shoulders forward and a peck
thing.
Yeah.
She's 68 years old, guys.
Like.
Yeah.
So she.
It goes in between her boobs,and then she just kind of crushes
it, you know, Shoves her boobs together.
Hands.

(10:10):
Yeah.
It wasn't as crazy as, like,what we thought, but anyways, it's
okay.
Blondie, they still liked you.
Yes.
And so Courtney got this wholekit of papers that Blondie has created.
Like, you know, stories, life stories.
Like.
Oh, yeah, all this stuff, likethis baggie.
And she sells she.
Well, I mean, because she.

(10:31):
People don't really often askfor a lap dance, and a lap dance
is about 20 a dance.
So she does $20 a can.
Crush.
And so got you.
Yeah.
You, like, pay her $20, and soshe gives you this little baggie
to take home with, like,information about her, and she'll,
like.
She kissed the can and signedall the paper.
Like, signed it to Courtney.
Interesting.
Yeah, it was really funny.
We had a great time.

(10:52):
So ne.
None of us had been to a strip club.
We got our first lap dance,and it was by Coco at the Clermont
Lounge.
And let me just tell you, wefell in love with a stripper.
Isn't that like a movie or asong or something?
I'm in love with a stripper.
Yeah.
We are in love with Coco.
She gave us both our first laughter.
They're in love with Coco.

(11:14):
Yes.
Let me just telling you,Courtney was so in love with Coco.
Poor Courtney.
Should we not Be dropping hername throughout this whole episode.
No, she's very proud of this.
Okay, good.
She's so in love with Cocothat she asked Coco what her perfume
was and then spent the wholeentire day.
The next day trying to find it.
Trying to find it.
Like, literally went to themall and was store popping and having

(11:36):
people help her.
What is it, dude?
I don't remember.
And she expense.
She must have loved it.
Yeah, I won't, I won't out youon how much you spent on it, Courtney.
But yes, she loved Coco andwas obsessed with Coco so much that
she found a designer perfume.
My goodness, Courtney.
Yeah, it was a great time.

(11:56):
And then next time you're overCourtney, or next time we see each
other, I need a lap dance and she.
Has to smell like cocoa.
Well, obviously.
Yeah.
And so we were there early,like earlier in the night.
Okay.
So before it was like super crowded.
And then honestly, by time itgot crowded, we were, we had experience.
What kinds of people were there?
Like, did you feel like it waskind of gross people or nice people

(12:17):
or just weird?
All kinds.
Like, are you talking aboutentertainer wise or like.
No, like clients.
Yeah, the crowd clients.
That would be sex work.
Melissa and I.
It is sex work.
Is it?
Yeah, they're professionals.
They're getting paid.
Wait, but prostitution's illegal.
It's not prostitution.
It's sex work.
I'm going to look up the difference.
Okay, I will educate myself.

(12:40):
Why'd you ask me the.
The technical.
What the crowd was like?
Okay, so the most interestingperson in the crowd that we saw was
at the table next to usbecause we got there early enough
to get a table.
There was this old man with acomposition book and he's at the
table just writing things onthe composition book.
Interesting.
And so Coco's dancing and wejust kind of lean over and we're

(13:00):
like, hey, what is the old man doing?
Like, what is he writing?
Oh, you asked her?
Yeah, we did.
Because we were like, is hebeing like, what is happening?
And she goes, oh, he's just a regular.
Like, he just, he's, he's just here.
He has like this high profilejob and he comes and sits down to
relax and he just writes notesin his position.
But yeah, and they're like,yeah, he's a great guy.

(13:21):
Like, we all know him.
Like, I was like, oh, okay.
He's very supportive.
So it's creepy from like an outsider's.
View, but like, we're not usedto that lifestyle.
But everyone else, it was likeyoung people, a lot of Young people
and that were going there, youknow, for the experience.
Because it's an experience, honestly.
Awesome.
So it was a lot of fun.
And once it did start pickingup and did start getting crowded,
we honestly were like.

(13:42):
Well, we experienced.
Experienced everything.
Like, that was the whole point.
And we went back to the hotelroom and we ended up playing like
the charades.
Oh, fun.
It was like this charades headband.
Yeah.
So like whatever word was onthe head.
And you know, we had a few drinks.
So it was so funny.
To where Courtney.
Courtney and I decided to playJesse Murph music.

(14:04):
And we were jumping on the bedlike you would to Britney Spears.
I don't even know who JesseMurph is.
I will enlighten you.
But we were acting like it wasBritney Spears jumping on our bed.
Like we're like 8 year old Tom.
Cruise on Oprah's couch.
Yeah.
Just kidding.
And then we got so into itthat Courtney literally flew off
the bed on accident, likejumping, and then missed the bed

(14:26):
and flew and fell into a corner.
She's okay.
She didn't get crazy.
She's okay.
But like, there was also agrocery bag in the corner and when
she landed on it, it actedlike a whoopee cushion.
No, she did sound like a fart.
Yes.
So it was like she flew offthe bed on accident.
Missed the.
Landed on this plastic bagthat ended up sounding like a wolfie
cushion.
So we're laughing because whatjust happened.

(14:47):
That is so funny.
You're like, I promise it was funny.
If you were there, you wouldhave been dying.
I bet it was hilarious.
Oh, I realize you're not laughing.
I am laughing.
I'm laughing inside.
Okay.
It was really fucking funny.
And.
No, it is hilarious.
It was a good time, but I cansee him being a little tipsy and
with the right people.

(15:08):
Yes, yes, yes.
It's all.
It's heightened.
Yeah.
I wish you were there.
I wish I was there too.
You would have loved it.
I wish one.
So we'll have to experience itagain, right?
Guess I'll just have to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Courtney, I'm sorry that Imissed it.
Her falling into the cornerand farting like a whoopee cushion.
That is hilarious.
And today we have.

(15:30):
She's so smooth parting like awhoopee cushion.
Today we have a sexologistwith us.
Is that a smooth transition?
Not at all.
Oh.
Today we have with us asexologist to talk with us about
sex and the benefits of havinga female orgasm.
Yeah.
Actually, we learned a lot.

(15:51):
She was so interesting.
We did learn a lot.
Yeah.
If I remember correct, welearn a.
Lot with everybody, but Idon't know why we always act like
we're surprised, but we'relike, actually, it was my favorite
conversation.
Yeah.
But it's not news anymore.
But you guys will enjoy it.
So.
Yeah.
Take a listen.

(16:14):
Today I'm so excited tointroduce to you Dr. Stephanie Bathurst.
Did I say it right?
You did, yes.
Yes.
She is a clinical sexologistand a licensed relationship therapist.
We have been wanting to talkabout sex and as you've seen throughout
the season, we're sprinklingin just how healthy and fun it should

(16:35):
be.
So this is really exciting tohear from the professional.
Stephanie, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
I've been looking forward tothis same.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, I'm really excited to be here.
I think we're going to havesome really good conversation for
everybody.
So I appreciate you.
Oh, absolutely.
Thank you.
I think, yes.
We are going to be touching onseveral questions that have been
brought up to us through ourlisteners, you guys.

(16:58):
So thank you for sitting inthose questions so that we could
find someone who can properlyanswer those for you.
That's right.
How.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and how you got into the
profession of what got youinterested in sexology.
I feel like that's not super common.
Yeah.
So I, I'm lucky enough to knowthat I was always, I always wanted
to work with people, likehelping people.

(17:19):
And so I knew that I wanted tobe a clinician, a therapist for a
really long time.
I think the more schooling Iwent through, the more refined my
niche became.
And naturally, as I likereally became an expert and specialized
in romantic relationships, Ifelt like there was a huge gap in

(17:39):
like treatment or justeducation within the relationship
therapy field.
You can't really do itholistically without attending to
sexual intimacy and physical touch.
So as I kind of continuedforward, I got more training in that.
And so right now I'm in Hawaii.
I used to have my practicebased in Maryland, like in the D.C.

(18:02):
area.
Ish.
And I started becoming prettywell known in that region for just
being a sex positive therapist.
So a lot of like thepolyamorous and kink communities
in that area because they,there are a lot of barriers to them
finding the right fitproviders who are able to support

(18:23):
them in the unique or circle dynamic.
They kind of started togravitate to me and that's when I
decided to get my PhD inclinical sexology.
So that was the metamorphosis.
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
Why do you think people of the.
These different types ofrelationships were drawn to you are
like, are you a part of thatcommunity yourself or.

(18:45):
That may not be an appropriate question.
You don't have to answer.
I was thinking maybe you'rejust open to working with them.
Yeah, I'm definitely, I thinkphilosophically I believe that people
are capable of many loves in def.
In different ways.
Your connection and attachmentfrom one person to the next is entirely

(19:06):
unique and it's not one sum.
And so I think philosophicallyI align more with like the, the potential
health and success of not, youknow, ethically non monogamous relationships
or non traditional styles.
And I tend to be much more sexpositive just in general.

(19:28):
So I think just all of thosecomponents of who I am as a person
and therefore as a providermade people feel more comfortable
opening up.
And then as they had goodexperiences, they referred to their
communities and it kind ofexpanded outward.
Sure, yeah.
Now I definitely want to getinto questions about.
So one of our specificquestions is around E M relationships,

(19:50):
but I also wanted to ask howwere you, were you raised in a home,
like where it was okay to talkabout sex?
To where it just helped youfeel unable to explore this as a
profession?
Or was that something that youhad to just kind of branch out on
your own to explore?

(20:10):
Yeah.
Or maybe you're like, oh, Inever understood the taboo about
it.
Yeah, yeah, I, I definitelygrew up in a home.
Not that there was any shame,like overt shame inherent in any
of our like, rituals orconversations, but it just wasn't
discussed.
It wasn't an open, comfortabletopic of discussion.

(20:33):
And so when I was young, a lotof my, my awareness, my insight came
from personal research becauseI had questions, but I didn't feel
super comfortable opening upand asking the people immediate like
field.
And so, yeah, I think, I thinkthat's been really valuable for me,

(20:54):
like as I move, as I movedforward into the professional realm
to make sure that I held spaceand I normalized conversations and
words about sex and physicalaffection and touch.
So at the very least, like weas a, as a public can be a little
more comfortable with it.
These should be open conversation.
Yeah.

(21:15):
Do you have like a help sheetthat you've helped parents discuss
this?
Because that's a very awkwardconversation to have with your kids
and to know when and how.
And.
Yeah, my specialty is morewith adults.
I did specialize with youngkids when I was really early in my

(21:35):
field.
I used to actually be aspecialist for young children with
advanced sexual, like Traumawithin their families, this time
in the residential facilities.
And so that's really important work.
Yeah, but I burned out in liketwo years.
I was just emotional.
Right.
Yeah, A lot to have to take onevery night or every day.

(21:58):
It is.
Or try to even brush off atthe end of the day and.
Oh, yeah, I would feel like,maybe even feel guilty trying not
to think about it at night.
Like, we're fine.
There's so many facets of.
Yeah, yeah.
Yourself for sure.
For me, it was like I startedto feel my, like, positivity and
hopefulness as like, like forthe public, for our future as a society

(22:22):
start to wane with.
With how much, like, darkness.
Yeah.
And you know how they alwayssay, like, truth is always stranger,
more like severe than fiction.
And that certainly is thetruth as you, like, go through some
of these police reports andtreatment plans and the, you know,
just heavy, heavy.
And so.

(22:43):
Yeah, that.
But there's so much need there.
So I've.
I've definitely mediatedconversations with like, adult clients
of mine and their adolescentkids as they struggle to have like,
the sex talk or to be openand, and supportive of coming out.
You know what I mean?
Just kind of like the identitydiscovery process that kids go through

(23:05):
and helping their parentssupport them through that.
Oh, that's nice.
Which is helpful in its own way.
We had a guest on that, talkedabout her experience of what it was
like for her daughter to comeout and be okay with telling her
who.
Who she is.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you talked about thedifferent communities that feel safe

(23:26):
and comfortable coming to youto talk about their different types
of relationships and how, if Iheard you correctly, that philosophically
you do believe that there ismore than one love for each person.
So I want to touch on thatand, and talk about these different
types of relationships thathonestly, I don't think a lot of
people even know exist.
I know.
I recently just learned about em.

(23:49):
Yeah.
I think also a lot of people,even if they know they exist, maybe
weird, are told.
Like they try not to eventhink about it.
Maybe they don't even thinkabout it because it just doesn't
seem.
Yeah, I've always heard of itas like a negative.
Yeah, we don't talk about itin society much.
We don't, but it's very common.
We look at the research and by report.

(24:10):
So we know that this isdrastically under reported because
it's a known taboo.
By report, 1 in 5, like, ofall relationships in the U.S. 1 in
5 will experience some type ofEM within the lifespan of their Relationship.
And that's like a significant number.
And we know it's probably morelike 1 in 3 because of the under

(24:32):
report.
Yeah.
So it's very common.
Very, very common.
We just don't talk about it.
Right.
It's kind of like.
And I have a young daughter,so I kind of experienced this firsthand.
But it's kind of like thediscussions about miscarriage.
It's not at all.
It's very common, it's very known.
It's very impactful to likeyou and your relationship and your

(24:54):
life.
But nobody really talks aboutit openly.
And that's a disservice to us certainly.
Yeah, yeah.
So what is there that people need.
To know for enm.
Yeah.
Like what?
We don't talk about it enough.
So like what do.
What does the community needto know to.
Yeah, I mean I'm also like.

(25:15):
So people who don't knowanything about it.
How would you explain it?
I'm wondering.
So it's an ethical nonmonogamous relationship.
What's the ethical part?
How do you keep it ethical?
Because I think a lot ofpeople have a hard time with that
thinking, like it's just goingto get messy.
Yeah, yeah, Perfect question.
So it's all about openness,transparency and contracting.

(25:38):
Right.
There has to be very explicit,overt negotiations between all partners.
Otherwise there is the pro.
The possibility of, you know,secondary, tertiary outside relationship
being experienced andprocessed as an active infidelity.
Just because you're in anethically non monogamous relationship,

(26:00):
you can still experiencejealousy, envy, feelings of betrayal
if you don't do it correctly.
Right.
And that's why I always saythat I work with advanced systems.
That's my specialty.
Not necessarily like E and Min particular, but either like any
kind of.
And that's a huge spectrum tobe like, you know, we are opening

(26:24):
up to a third party, juststaying with the primary dyad ourselves.
That's like the one end of the spectrum.
All the way to kitchen tablepoly where all partners are heavily
integrated into relationshipswith each other.
You think of like everybodysitting down at the same table for
dinner together.
Yeah.
Lots of massive spectrum ofdifferent types of relationship lines

(26:49):
and dynamics that exist.
Whatever, whatever you choosewith your partner.
One, it has to be openlycontracted before you take any action.
So there needs to be really,really good communication skills
for you to do that.
And.
Or have like a third partymediator who knows what they're doing
to help you ask the right questions.

(27:11):
And two, you're.
We always talk about likelogistics, planning.
You have to be a good projectmanager, to be in like an advanced
systems because you have somany relational responsibilities.
Right.
And there's a lot that you getback from that.
For most people, they're like,oh, it's worth it.
It is a lot of effort to talkto all of my partners and give them

(27:36):
the energy that they deserveand need for the sustainability of
this relationship.
But it's just a lot more.
It's on an advanced scale.
And so you really need to havelike good communication and good
executive functioning skillsto make this sustainable long term.
So I guess I'm kind of curiousbecause I've actually never dabbled

(27:56):
in that in any kind of open relationship.
I've been curious about it,but sometimes when I think about
it, it's literally the thingthat you just now said is there's
more work.
And I'm like, why?
Tell me some, give me some reasons.
Like why is this somethingthat people should look at or look

(28:17):
into?
Yeah.
When, when would a couplethink, oh, maybe that's for us.
Right.
Yeah.
So we're all, we're all uniqueand different in the priorities of
values, of intimacy forms.
So if we have, if we're in acommitted partnership with somebody
who is usually like differentfrom us.

(28:38):
Right.
Those prioritizations, thosescales differ from one person to
the next.
Yep.
And you love and you'recommitted to this person.
And also you have this oneparticular or many particular areas
that are not, are not fully fulfilled.
And I love that you said andalso and not.
But because that, yeah, thatjust kind of right there, that's

(29:01):
everything to me.
Like you want to keep therelationship you have and you need
more.
Exactly.
It is, it is an and.
Right.
You're not, you're not likesaying, okay, well I guess I'll say
stay in this relationshipbecause it's more convenient.
But it's not working for me.
So I'm going to find somebodyelse to fill these areas.
It's more, it's an we ratherthan a subtractive model.

(29:25):
Right.
Like, which would be mypartner has their own partner and
they're taking energy awayfrom our relationship and giving
to this other person, which isoftentimes the mindset that keep.
Keeps people stuck in thistraditional model of relationships.
Yeah.
We want to transition andreframe more toward an additive model

(29:47):
of thinking, which would be mypartner and I, we're seeing outside
partners for like additional energy.
Right.
Maybe we have caps on how muchenergy we can fulfill with each other.
Just with each other.
But if we bring these Otherparties into the mix, and they enhance

(30:07):
our levels of fulfillment, ourjoy, our, like, adventure for life.
We bring that energy, thatelevated mood back to each other,
and we have more energy torecirculate among us.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That gives you just rightthere already gives you a lot to
think about because so manypeople are like, oh, like, yeah.

(30:30):
You hear a lot of people say,yeah, my husband was a great guy.
He, you know, really caredabout me.
He was a great father, but I just.
I needed more or something.
And like, then people arelike, oh, we'll get a divorce.
Like, find someone who canmeet all those things.
And there's always that.
But how can.
How can you ensure that you'regoing to get it all?

(30:51):
And so maybe another way tothink about it is, no, I am happy
because you're a greathusband, great father, like, so patient
and kind and giving.
But, like, you bring thesethings to.
The table, and then otherthings are.
Brought, and it can be anoption as well.
Yeah.
No one person will fit all ofthe boxes.

(31:14):
That's a big thing to remember.
Yeah.
And for a lot of people, it's like.
For a lot of people in thetraditional mindset, which also,
like, I'm very supportive.
I work so much with monogamouscoupledoms, and that can be done
healthily and unhealthily.
Just like em can be donehealthily or unhealthily for a lot
of people in, like, themonogamous philosophy, they fill

(31:38):
those needs with friend groupsor with family experiences or with
travel routes.
You know what I mean?
Hobbies.
They just do it in other waysthat don't involve romantic relationships.
It's.
But it's still the same process.
Not this one person can't meet100% of your social, physical, intimate

(31:58):
needs.
That makes sense.
And how do we get thatelsewhere to feel whole, you know?
So it's.
Yes.
Okay, so it's not E M is more.
So, like, if you were missingsomething, particularly sexually,
that you can't get fulfilledmaybe in your marriage.
And is that kind of what I'm understanding?
I thought I understood that itdidn't have to be sexually either.

(32:19):
I don't know.
I'm so confused now.
Maybe.
Think about.
So poly.
Polyamory.
It's multiple relationships, Right?
Okay.
Multiple loves.
And that can mean romantic love.
It can mean sexual love.
So if you're on that, on thefarther end of the polyamorous spectrum,
there.

(32:40):
There's usually going to be aromantic component to it.
Think about, like, emotional intimacy.
Psychological intimacy.
Physical intimacy.
But not necessarily sexual.
So it can have both of thosecomponents, sexual and romantic love.
The closer you get to theother end of the spectrum of E M,
which is like we're in acommitted monogamous structure, but

(33:02):
we want to have threesomesevery once in a while, which is bringing
a very like.
It's a very controlled way ofdoing, of opening up where the primary
dyad is still protected.
That is much more sexuallybased relationship.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
So you can do it in manydifferent ways depending on what
your needs are, you know, whatthe function is.

(33:24):
Now just in a traditionalrelationship, coming to your partner
about something sexual thatyou have a desire to explore or talk
about can be scary and really hard.
How do you have theseconversations with a partner in a
safe, unjudgmental way?

(33:46):
Thank you.
That's such a good question.
That's a great question.
And I think it really dependson the foundation of the relationship
and if it's at a stable pointfor you to even consider and open
this conversation up.
Because it is a veryvulnerable sometimes for people,
it's very scary.
There's a lot of like fear,future oriented fear responses that

(34:09):
like activate immediately anda lot of familial trauma.
Right.
Like if you went through adivorce when you were a kid because
one of your parents cheated onthe other person, this can be really
reactivating of loss andabandonment for people.
So not only do we want to makesure that everybody has done their
work, like their own personalwork to heal and recover from some

(34:30):
of those relational traumas,but there should be secure attachment
in your relationship.
You shouldn't.
We should never dive into,like expanding toward a more complex
system.
If your current dyadic systemis unstable, it will never end well.
And so we want to evaluate,like, do you feel safe and secure

(34:51):
with me?
Are we stable?
Do we have the 4s' in ourrelationship pretty consistently?
And if not, that needs to bethe first step.
Can we talk about the four S's?
Because I was just about toask you, like, you know, we're always
supposed to be working on ourselves.
When are, when's the workgoing to be done?
It's never going to be done.
Right.
So how do you know that you'vedone enough work to bring in some

(35:14):
of these conversations likethat you're like stable enough?
Like.
Well, in my opinion, I alsothink that there's probably, I think
way less couples than we wantto admit ever reach a secure relationship.
So.
Yeah.
So I'm wondering if those S'sis that like the security, like she

(35:35):
just said, Is that one of them?
Yeah.
So the four S's are safe,seen, soothed and secure.
Oh, you can only accesssecurity on a con, like on a, you
know, stable basis.
When you have the first threethat are present consistently and
we're human, there are goingto be situational triggers where

(35:56):
like, you know, we feel amoment of regression, we come to
our partner, we repair and heal.
This is more so in like an, aneveryday kind of baseline.
Are you feeling safeemotionally, physically, financially,
whatever it is, Are youfeeling safe?
Are you feeling seen, which istapping into the emotional and psychological
intimacy component.

(36:17):
Do you feel like your partnerverifies who you feel you deeply
are as like a human being anddo they support your emotional health
and then do you feel soothed?
Which is more about coregulation, not codependency.
So this is different from I'mupset, I need you to regulate my

(36:40):
emotions.
That is what codependence is.
Right.
Co regulation is.
I see that you're at the upset.
I'm going to sit here next to you.
Maybe I'll model deepbreathing or some acupressure tapping
points, be here with you.
As you go through thisstressful experience of regulating.

(37:00):
Do you see how there's like.
Yeah, there's like support andlove and respond responsivity there.
Right.
On a consistent basis.
So we need those three thingsin the relationship before you can
even evaluate if security hasbeen accessed.
Interesting.
As.
Do you also feel like there isa very low amount of couples that

(37:23):
will ever reach a secure relationship?
I do.
I think if you have a reallyeffective like, so as a couple's
therapist, that's like my jam.
Right.
If I were to be asked what isthe most valuable, most critical
tool that any couple can, can learn?

(37:45):
Like the first thing I wantpeople to learn how to do is to repair.
It's to like identify when aninjury is happening in the relationship,
be able to implement effectivediffusive techniques to reduce the
tension as it has built and toknow how to come back together and
prioritize the bigger picture,which is never, am I right or are

(38:09):
you right?
But it's always going to be,how can we be happy and feel loved
in this life that we share together?
Right, yeah.
So it's whatever activatesthat bigger picture perspective for
you to like deprioritize thatpower dynamic that's happening right
now.
Because that's not going tobring you what you want and what
you need.

(38:30):
So having a really effectiverepair process, even if you're attachment
is not 100% secure all of the time.
If you can do that, you can behealthy in your relationship.
What would you advice?
Would you give somebody who'sgoing through some struggles in their
marriage and maybe they'vedecided that it's about.

(38:54):
That it should be over.
Like, how do you decide it'sokay to not repair?
Like, what would you say?
Like, are the things that youneed to be looking for?
Like, like what are the corevalues of like this is repairable
or beyond.
Reconcile, it's okay to move on.
Yeah.
I think it's more about intention.

(39:16):
For what?
For whatever decisions you're making.
Right.
Like if, if somebody comes inand they're like, I want to leave
my partner and I want to makesure that I make the right decision.
Right.
What I would first do is helpthem break down all of the intricacies
to get down to the root core.
And sometimes the root core isbut I don't trust them.

(39:36):
And so I don't want tocontinue this relationship because
that would require me to stepback into vulnerability with them.
Right.
Yeah.
Which is more fear based.
That's not like a, that's nota healthy intention for making you
sound decisions for your life,like horrible decisions that drastically
impact your life.

(39:57):
We want to help you recognizelike what your needs are, the compatibility
potential with your partner.
We want to heal any active betrayals.
And that doesn't necessarilyhave to include the other person.
Right.
Like you going through theforgiveness process and being able
to release past pain is moreabout you and your.

(40:23):
You deserving a higher qualityof life than carrying the weight
of these emotional burdens.
Right.
So put that decision on theback burner for a couple of weeks
while we help get you recentered and in a sound place when
you're making good executivedecisions for yourself.
Did I answer the question?
Yeah, I think so.

(40:43):
Thank you.
There are a lot of reasons why.
There are a lot of reasons whypeople are in romantic relationships.
And I think in a bit we'llprobably talk about the reasons for
sex as well, which there canbe many, which is great.
But for both of those things,there are healthy and unhealthy reasons.

(41:06):
Right.
Like coming together becauseyou have children together is not
a healthy reason.
It's not going.
If that's the core reason whyyou're remaining committed in this
relationship, it will notserve to bring you happiness and
fulfillment.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
You know, there has to besomething more core in terms of the
attachment.
If your attachment is totallysevered and you're feeling more apathetic

(41:29):
than you are connected.
There's, it's, it's hard toregain that back because yeah, the
repair processes work.
Right.
You have to want in order toput in the work for it to work workout.
Right, Right.
Like you said, I do want tomove into the reasons for sex, but

(41:50):
I have one more question aboutattachment style.
When you have a couple and oneperson may be secure in their personal
attachment style, if the otherperson in that relationship never
reaches a secure attachmentstyle for themselves, will they ever
be able to have like a fullyhealthy, happy relationship?

(42:12):
I was literally thinking thatwhile she was talking.
You guys are so aligned.
We get that a lot.
No, it's a, it's a great question.
I love systems work because wecan like pop out of the, the in depth,

(42:33):
like situational stuff andreally look at the bigger picture
and how systems work.
Work in relationships.
Systems will always try tofind balance, which is why if we
have originally a secure,securely attached partner and a partner
who is, I don't know,disorganized, avoidant.

(42:54):
I'm sure it's a huge spectrum.
Those aren't like refineddichotomous categories, right?
Like there, there's a range there.
Yeah.
The system is going to findbalance with that partnership by
encouraging the secure partnerto do the exact opposite of what
the insecure partner is doing.
So if one person is presentingwith more of an avoidance style in

(43:17):
this relationship, the systemis going to encourage their counterpart
to present with more anxious tendencies.
Which is why we feel likepeople will come in and be like,
oh, we had this moment ofbetrayal or injury in our relationship
and it's just gotten out of hand.
Like, we have just changed somuch how we interact with one another

(43:40):
over the last couple of yearssince that incident.
And it just, it gets likeworse and worse, right?
Like.
Yeah, exactly.
Until we rebalance andstabilize the system, it's going
to be a really gross oversimplification.
But for people who aren'tfamiliar with attachment styles and
the nuances of them, I wouldsay avoidant is more.

(44:05):
And everything's based out of anxiety.
Right.
And self protection.
They're just differentmanifestations of it.
So avoidant is more.
I trust myself, but I don'ttrust other people.
And so I'm going to keep them,I'm going to push them away or keep
them at base, at bay, becausethat's how I will control the situation.
Anxious is more.
I trust other people, but Idon't trust myself.

(44:27):
And so I'm going to cling onto them and and assume their identity
because I don't trust my own.
And then disorganized is acombination of both of those.
And it's usually based out ofattachment traumas.
Right?
Yeah.
Like trauma from childhoodwill breed those like really chaotic

(44:47):
reactive dynamics.
Yeah.
So that was theoversimplification of it.
That's really scary to thinkthat, you know, if you do end up.
If you are a secure person andyou do end up marrying and loving
someone who's not how really it's.
That energy can shift you in anegative way if you've let it.

(45:10):
That's really scary to think about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was interesting.
The thought that kind of cameto my mind was because you were talking
about the safe seemed soothedand secure.
And I was thinking, you know,there are times when a partner, I
have seen it where one of thepartners may refuse to feel seen

(45:32):
or safe or secure.
And like everything you do totry to let them know you're seeing
them or whatnot is, is, iskind of rebuffed, I guess.
Avoidant.
Yeah.
And so I thought it kind oftook me to what Sam had said anyway.
Get some of those traits.

(45:54):
Yeah.
And I think it's when I dolike premarital work with couples,
like preparing them formarriage and what that means to them
and defining what it, whattheir expectations are.
I always, always include likethe expectation of personal health,
personal evolution.

(46:14):
Right.
Because your relationship arealways maxed out.
They are always capped at theindividual counterparts level of
like health, functioning, awareness.
So like even if one person isreally elevated in their like personal
evolution and awareness, iftheir counterpart is way down here

(46:35):
and hasn't done the work, therelationship is going to be kept
down at that level.
Which is really for some people.
Yeah.
And why it's important to likehave those conversations with your
partner early on to be likefor the betterment of this relationship
and for us to last long termin a happy dynamic, both of us have

(46:57):
to put the work in.
Both of us have to, you know,find a therapist, find a shaman,
do acupuncture, eat healthy,work out, whatever, whatever.
This works for you.
It has to be a part of the mix.
And if your goal is to have agood relationship.
Yeah.
I will say I personally havegone through, I think that drastic

(47:17):
in the difference.
And then I guess throughindividual therapy it's like, whoa,
who would have thought therelationship could be like, so like
more fulfilling and happy and,and I don't think, I don't know.
I. I feel like it's hard toget out of that because you do want
to be like, oh, I'm not theonly one that like, has the, the

(47:40):
problem and it wasn't me.
But I don't know, it's.
There's a lot of ego.
Yes, Yes.
I would say.
Yeah, I, I think that's.
This is always a littleunnerving when people hear this,
but like, the statistics ofdivorce for licensed marriage and

(48:02):
family therapists or like,providers whose specialty it is for
relationships are higher thanthe national average, not lower.
Wow.
Right.
Because we are, we are for.
We're in a field where we areforced to constantly, like, work
on our own stuff to be ethicaland good providers.
Plus you have so many like,educational credits you have to do

(48:24):
to maintain licensure.
But if your partner is notgrowing at the same rate, it becomes,
it starts to feel more like aparent child hierarchy.
The farther you get away, themore you're aware of their, like,
their wounds, their necessary healing.
Sometimes you understand theiremotions before they even have been

(48:44):
able to, literally.
Yeah.
And it feels.
That imbalance feels kind ofyucky for all parties.
It feels more like a parentchild, which is not sexy.
That's true.
So is moral of the story,like, when you're not seeing eye
to eye and like, just see atherapist, is that like the only
resolution, really?
I mean, I think if you havereally effective repair processes

(49:06):
and you know how to drop outof the situational, like, content
and context and into the coreemotional need.
Yeah.
You can do that on your own.
Right.
It's.
It's never about the dishes.
Ever.
It's never about the dishes.
It's about feeling unseen foryour contributions in the relationship.

(49:27):
It's about feeling feelings ofinequality or unfairness.
It's about like feeling betrayed.
There's always core stuff.
If you don't learn how to dropright into that conversation and
express your needs, then,yeah, you're going to need a third
party to mediate that conversation.
But that's doable.
It just requires you to putyour ego to the side and step into

(49:50):
vulnerability, which issometimes the hardest part.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Stephanie, you actually just afew moments ago taught me that there
are more than one reason tohave sex.
And it's not just to make babies.
100%.
Yeah.

(50:11):
There's so many.
Some are unhealthy.
Right.
Like, to placate or appeasesomeone because they're annoying
you is not a good reason tohave sex.
But outside of just likefeeding and reinforcing the intimate
bond with your partner orprocreating healthy examples of reasons
to have sex include toorganically improve your hormone

(50:36):
production.
Which means, like, the.
More.
There are studies out therethat show you can stave off the onset
of menopause if you have sextwo to three times per week.
Wow.
What if you can't have sex?
Do you just masturbate?
Sorry, I'm.
Seriously.
It does the same thing.
If you're activating thosereproductive functions and flooding

(50:59):
your body with the sexhormones, your body, you're giving
the feedback communication toyour body that you're still using
and therefore still need these processes.
So it's going to keepproducing sex hormones for you rather
than kill them all.
I didn't know that.
That is, like, who would have thought?
But it makes so much sense.
It's like, of course your bodyis gonna try to keep itself in the

(51:23):
state that.
Yeah, like, if you're saying,hey, like you said, I'm losing these
hormones.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
There have also been studiesdone that for, like, pain response,
pain management.
Sorry, if you hear chickens inthe background, that's just Hawaii.
I love that.

(51:46):
For pain management, we.
There have been really, reallyeffective studies that show sex,
like orgasm is equally aseffective at treating migraine pain
than traditional liketriptans, which is amazing.
So if you're feeling pain,which is interesting because a lot
of people come into my officeand they're like, I have a lot of

(52:08):
fibromyalgia.
I have migraines.
I have these, like, stomach cramps.
I'm just not.
If I'm feeling physicallyuncomfortable, I don't want to have
sex.
And I can understand, like, Ihave a lot of medical conditions
as well.
I can certainly understandthat initial, like, you know, revolting,
again, physical.

(52:29):
But after the sex, after thepost orgasm, your pain levels are
objectively less than theywere beforehand, which is pretty
amazing, right?
And that's free.
That's like, no, no negativeside effects from, you know, medications.
It's.
It's just something cool thatyou can do for your body when your

(52:49):
body needs it.
Yeah.
So I get migraines a lot.
And there was a time like afew months ago and my husband was
like, well, we should have sexbecause that.
That'll help your headache.
And we were laughing like, ha,ha, ha.
Because usually that's the joke.
I have a headache.
I don't want to do it.
Right.
But it did, really, in my experience.

(53:13):
Like, I feel like it onlyalleviates it for like five minutes
and then it's like, back.
Right.
Oh, okay.
I mean, no.
I don't know.
I'm just saying.
Sorry, I don't know why I said.
Right.
I was trying to hear you.
I wanted you to feel heard.
Thank you.
I feel heard and I feelrelated with.
I'm so sorry.

(53:33):
Like, right.
No, but for me it helped.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It really depends.
Everybody's biochemistry is different.
Like, like how?
However much likephenylethylalamine is flooding your
system, for some people it'svery little.
For other people it's a lotpost orgasm.

(53:53):
I've never heard that word phenylethylamine.
Oh, pea, you probably heardthat it's in like chocolate.
That's why people arechocoholics, because it feels addictive.
Okay.
PEA is the sex hormone that'sflooded with like novelty.
So think of new relationshipenergy, the honeymoon phase.
That's all PEA Right.
Nice.
Okay.

(54:14):
Yeah.
So it really just depends onwhat hormones are flooding your brain
at any given time.
And sex can be a huge driverfor those floods.
But the amount of sex hormonesthat are, that are released for each
of those experience kind ofdiffers from person to person.
Okay.
At the very least physical touch.
And it doesn't have to be likeorgasm dependent necessarily, but

(54:38):
physical touch, we're verysocial creatures.
Any kind of physical touch isgoing to calm the nervous system
and help like reduce pain responses.
It's just, it has to be donelike if you have certain pain points,
you obviously don't want to bedoing like an untrained hard massage
on those pain points with your partner.
But you know, be mindful thatphysical touch in any kind of capacity

(55:01):
really does flood your brainwith feel good hormones that counteract
whatever negative experiencesyou're having.
Okay.
Yeah.
There's so many reasons, somany really good reasons for sex
for a good percentage.
I believe the statistic is 18%from Rosemary Mason's like research

(55:21):
on female sexual cycle.
Okay.
15 to 18% of the population, women.
And like predominantly women,the physical, the psychological desire
and the physical likephysiological arousal, those stages
are flip flopped.
Which means before your braincan tell you that you want and are

(55:42):
interested and open to sexsex, you need to have some level
of stimulation to communicateto your brain that you might be interested.
So for men it's reversed.
And that was the traditionallike old school cycle because of
course it was based off oflike male sexual response, which

(56:03):
is always going to be likephysio, I'm sorry, psychological
desire that activates like youknow, flooding of blood to the, to
the reproductive area, whichis what physiological arousal is.
Okay.
For women a lot of timesthere's A reverse.
So there needs to be, like,some buffer step for you if your

(56:24):
partner is reaching out for abid for connection and is like, hey,
would you like to connect?
I would.
I'm.
I'm missing you.
Right?
Yeah.
Before saying, no, absolutely not.
Maybe another time, maybeanother day.
Because you don't have that desire.
You want to buffer steps.
You're not saying yes.
Right.
You're saying, I would beinterested in maybe you rubbing my

(56:47):
forearm for a couple minuteswhile we're sitting on this couch.
Or maybe you can, like, Idon't know.
I hear feet rubs a lot.
I hear head scratches, like,you know, scalp massages.
Some level of physical touchto stimulate so that you have the
means to evaluate if you'reinterested or not.
Does that make sense?

(57:07):
Wow.
Instead of just shutting theother person down.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I like that a lot because Ifeel like I'm one of those people
that maybe I'm just alwaysflooded down there because it's easy
for me to say, sure, let's go.
But I have had partners who donot have that kind of drive.

(57:30):
And it's like, okay, well,wait, don't say no yet.
Let's do a little bit of.
Of just some touching.
Nice.
Like, consensually.
Right.
But I think that's nice.
Okay.
Yeah.
And for.
For the record, any bid forconnection should always be responded
to.
It doesn't have to beresponded to in the exact way that
it was requested.

(57:51):
But if your partner isreaching out for connection, it's.
It's considered an attachmentinjury if you just say no and then
walk away.
Right.
There should always be somelevel of negotiation for you to be
like.
Like, I see that you'rewanting to connect, and I love that
you want to connect with me.
I am not interested inconnecting in that particular way.

(58:11):
But what I can offer is thisor this.
What are you looking for?
You know what I mean?
Like, there has to be a re.
Every.
A response and engagement back.
Otherwise, the energy thatthey've just contributed for the
relationship falls immediatelyout of your dynamic and can't recirculate
back.
Yeah.
Bids is one of my favorite words.

(58:32):
And so my husband and I, we dokind of.
We don't call it bidding.
We call, oh, my God, I justleft my head.
Because we haven't had to useit in so long.
But we.
That's a good thing.
That sounds very cocky.
But it was like, for thisexample, we'll use bids, and it's
like, for every missed bid,you have five chips that you got

(58:56):
to put in to repair that.
And so that was something thatwe always remembered.
It was the cup.
And for every missed man,maybe it was bit, but that just doesn't
sound.
That doesn't sound right to me.
But it was.
You know, we have a cup, wewarn each other, like, oh, hey, the
cup is, like, becoming empty.
And then it's like, oh, I needto fill that up.

(59:18):
And so realizing, oh, we can'tmiss any more of their requests for
whatever it is because we gota five to make up for that one time
that we let them down.
Oh.
Because I feel like.
I mean, you're right.
Like, it takes way morepositive memories than, like, to

(59:39):
overcome a negative memory.
Right?
Yeah.
The ratio is five to one.
That's what you did.
Yeah.
You must have done someGottman work you're familiar with.
It was Gottman.
Okay.
But I feel ridiculous that Ican't remember what word we use.
I don't think it was bid, butmaybe it was.
It's okay.
Spoon.

(59:59):
Yeah.
That's when everyone usesright now.
Wait, are you serious?
Yeah.
Oh, I've never heard of that.
Okay.
Spice Theory is.
Is awesome.
It's from a disability community.
Right.
Like, you.
You wake up with a whole.
With a number of spoons everyday, and every task requires you
to give a certain amount of spoons.
But people who havedisabilities wake up with less spoons,

(01:00:21):
and so they're more protectiveof how much energy give away.
Because when you're out,you're out at the end of the day,
right?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
That was another really goodthing to kind of think about.
Yeah, I love it.
I feel like to finishanswering one of our listeners questions,
when we age, sex doesn'tbecome as easy as it was when we

(01:00:46):
were younger.
Obviously, we run out of that,like, natural lubricant.
Like, how does the female.
How can a female still enjoysex as they age and it's just harder
to become comfortable with?
Does that question make sense?
Yes.
And asking it wrong?
Well, this particular personwho asked us to talk about this,

(01:01:13):
she wanted it to be clear thatsex doesn't go, like, become obsolete
after that, like the age of70, per se.
And so I don't know if she wassaying, like, it gets harder or not.
I don't know what she wassaying, really.
Generally what you hear isthat it is harder.
Yeah.
But the desire doesn't go away.

(01:01:33):
Yeah.
She just was kind of like, Ijust want people to know that we
still have sex.
Yes.
100%.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's.
It's weird how that's like a.
Because I hear it all the time.
Right.
Like the expectation of oh,we're too old for that.
Right?
You do.
Okay.
And when you look at likestatistics of STIs, STDs in the US

(01:01:58):
the nursing homes are thehighest rated communities because
you don't.
You have unprotected sex innursing, you don't need them to protect
anymore.
I have heard this.
Didn't realize it was true.
I did not know that.
And so yeah, it's.
And again, for, for a reason.
Right.
Like part of the reason,healthy reasons for having sex is

(01:02:19):
having fun.
Like connect with your body,learn to have fun or, or re.
Experience adventure in a new way.
Maybe you can't drive to thebeach or to the whatever, but maybe
you can have a different typeof sex and that's adventurous and
stimulating for you.
You know, there are so many.
Is it a myth that that sexgets harder or does it get harder

(01:02:43):
or I guess now I'm not surewhat we're asking.
So it gets more painful if youdon't accommodate your aging bodies.
Right.
For women, the once you hitlike perimenopause into menopause,
your, your lubricationdeclines and your elasticity declines,
which means the natural canal gets.

(01:03:05):
That's less elastic, less likespongy and shorter.
Right.
Okay.
So not only is there morefriction if we're not accommodating
like secondary lubricant intothe mix, but you quite literally
don't have enough space toaccommodate your partner anymore.
And so I think it's, I thinkit's a misconception because there's

(01:03:27):
pain can be very quicklyconditioned to sex.
Sex, if you're experiencingpain and you're just trying to fight
through the moment, assumingit's going to get better in the next
couple of times.
Don't, don't, don't fightthrough pain.
That's how we condition thisfear response, this aversion to sex
very quickly.

(01:03:47):
So I think we just need to be more.
We need to talk about theeffects of menopause on aging bodies
and how you accommodate someof those symptoms so that you can
store story and have it be apleasurable experience.
Yeah.
Now I'm glad that youmentioned about like how as you age
you just.
The electicity is lower and soyou just don't physically have the

(01:04:11):
space.
I one time heard that whenyou're aroused you like, you only
have so much space and whenyou're aroused it, you get more space.
But like how Can I ask this inlike a non vulgar way?
Just ask it.
We're just ask it.

(01:04:32):
You can blame it on me.
Melissa said get vulgar.
I.
Okay, but it shouldn't have to be.
We don't have.
It's not vulgar.
We're breaking stereotypes.
We are.
We will talk about more ofthis like in another episode.
Or you know, I have friends ondating websites or whatever.
And you see, I have malefriends that are.
Okay, this is how we'llapproach it.
It.
I have male friends who are ondating websites.

(01:04:54):
And some of these websitesyou'll have girls that are like,
oh, I need eight inches ormore to like be satisfied.
And it's like, you don't havespace for that.
Like, I don't understand.
Like, do people have different space?
Like, it's not like one, onesize fits all.
Like, it's just mind bogglingto me.

(01:05:15):
Like, why do some people need that?
That sounds.
Who wants their organs being rearranged?
Well, just everyone'sdifferent because I would imagine
girls are also different sinceeven all guys have different size
equipment.
I don't know.
Tell us.
Shed some light.
Okay, so again, everybody's different.
During the perimenopause phase.

(01:05:37):
It's.
For some women, your interestin sexual, like experience dramatically
increases before itdramatically drops in menopause.
For some it goes.
It's a progressive, gradualdecline in interest.
But for others it's at highpeak and then menopause hits and
then it's a drastic drop.
Oh, wow.

(01:05:57):
So that can explain some of it.
Because if you'rephysiologically aroused, your cavity
is expanding beyond theaverage 4 inches and can accommodate
more.
That's why I was so amazed itwas four inches.
And so it's like, where thehell does eight go?

(01:06:20):
For.
For some women, like, as weage, not only is the elasticity declining,
but.
And this is not just sexual,this is across your whole body.
Our sensitivity, our nerveendings are no longer as sensitive.
That's why when you have like,like when you have an elder in your
family and you're like, howdid you get that nasty bruise on

(01:06:41):
your body?
What did you do?
They're like, oh, I have no idea.
I don't know when that happened.
I didn't feel a thing.
Because your, your skin, yourbody becomes desensitized and that,
that impacts sexual experienceas well.
So sometimes people arewanting a little bit rougher, a little
bit harder, or just adifferent size because it increases

(01:07:02):
sensation response.
Does that make sense?
But that's, that's very uniqueperson to person based on, like,
how they're responding to thehormone changes.
Yeah, Okay, I got you.
I still think that no matterwho you are, your organs are being
rearranged, and I just thinkthat's insane.
Maybe that's all they can feel there.
There is a thing called auterine orgasm, right where you're.

(01:07:27):
You're coming up like that.
That wall that people feel isgetting hit and you're like, ow.
That does not feel good.
For some people, after you'rein an aroused state, it can't be
before.
It's going to be painful ifyou hit it before.
But hitting that kind of,like, cap of the cavity is actually
activating orgasm.

(01:07:48):
Like a different kind oforgasm from clitoral.
It's just a different sensation.
So for some.
For some women, they enjoythat at the height of arousal.
And maybe there are otherwomen who are requesting deeper.
Okay, I know we had an episodeon types of orgasms.
I don't remember that beingone, but I could just not remember.
Oh, I don't remember.

(01:08:09):
There were more than I knew.
Yeah.
Seven or nine.
So Interesting.
Yeah, there's.
Yeah, we should.
We should do a.
We should do an inter.
Like a podcast just on the female.
There's a massive stage, likea scale for how you activate altered
states of consciousness orextended state workout women.

(01:08:30):
It's really.
What is really.
You said it's a scale.
Is there a name of it?
Is the name of that scale oryou're just saying.
No, there is there.
I did not make it.
So let me.
I'm just wanting to make sureI remember so we can.
Yeah.
Coordinate again.
Yep.
Yeah, for sure.
Let me find it.
You have been fascinating.

(01:08:53):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Of course.
I always love talking aboutthis and just educating people.
I mean, women in general,because I think we.
We don't talk about what.
What we need to learn about,like, our own bodies enough.
Yeah.
I think one of my, like,another thing that would be just
amazing on another episodewould be like, as a parent.

(01:09:17):
So one, if you never grew tobe comfortable with sex talks, and
it took you a long time as anadult to be comfortable with even
discussing sexual topics, likewith your partner.
Like, how can you healthily,healthily help your kids.
Yeah.
With your kids.
Yeah.
And so, like, that would beinteresting for me is like, how,
as a parent, can you helpinstill, like, a healthy knowledge?

(01:09:39):
Because as we all say, wedon't want our kids to just go learn
on the Internet or least at.
At school.
Yeah.
So there's gotta be a healthybalance that you know, we need to
know.
Yeah, there is.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
There's.
There's so much that we cantalk about.
And I think it starts withjust normalizing terms and not feeling
right.
Like, kids are sponges.
They just absorb whateverwe're feeling or projecting.

(01:10:02):
And so like when I, whenparents come and they ask me that,
like, how do I teach my kid tonot feel shame about sex like I had?
And the response is, yougotta, you gotta resolve your shame
because your shame is whatyou're projecting onto them and they're
absorbing that.
So, like, your own work andhealing process is healing for them.

(01:10:23):
It's teaching them.
You know what I mean?
Which is very empowering.
That aligns with what it does.
Walker said it's perfect.
I just really liked how yousaid your own work, work is healing
for them.
And yeah, I liked it.
But yeah, you're right.
Yeah.
Now I will say me trying toexplain periods to Amelia, I feel

(01:10:45):
like I traumatized her.
I was like, oh my God.
My sister in law said that shetold her daughter about it and she
goes, she just sat there withwide eyes and at the end she goes,
are you okay?
And she said, is anyone everokay after that?
Oh, my gosh.

(01:11:05):
Sounds about right.
That's about how it went.
Yeah.
I, I remember being in sixthgrade and having the like, you know,
we got separated for.
Into.
Into.
Apparently they don't do that anymore.
My kids said that they'venever gotten that.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, well, that's really scary.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(01:11:25):
And.
And my response was like, whydid you separate every.
All the boy.
The boys and the girls need toknow about each other's bodies, be
able to respect and understandand have empathy for the experience
of just like aging and growingand sex.
And I don't, I don'tunderstand the, the omission of critical
information that our kids needto just understand themselves.

(01:11:49):
You know what I mean?
My initial argument is like,if I have a son, I obviously don't
want him to see like a nakedfemale body.
But like, obviously you'reusing like cartoon, you know, figures
and examples and models oflike, what.
How the female body changes.
And so my argument isimmediately like, well, it's inappropriate.
Like, my son doesn't need tobe seeing that.
But then at the same time,it's like, then.

(01:12:13):
And plus, then there's theside of like, well, boys are just
really immature.
And because we let them be, welet them be if we didn't separate
them and made them understand,like the female body.
And like, this is normal.
And that it's not respected.
Yes.
Like, that would also solve somany problems.
Greed.

(01:12:33):
Yeah.
I like, I remember going, we,we travel a lot and so we'll, we'll
go to other countries andthey're like, you know, we just went
to Japan and there were onsensthat were.
Everybody went together.
All the kids, the adults, themale, female.
It was everybody together naked.
And nothing was sexualizedbecause it's not a sexual experience.

(01:12:55):
Right.
And you go to all these othercountries that have, have done the
education without sexualizingwomen in particular, and it reduces,
like, dramatically reduces thesexual assault rates in those countries.
And I think, like, keeping ourkids from this information creates

(01:13:16):
this, like, extreme curiositybecause it's considered taboo now.
And we can just eliminate thatunhealthy curiosity by feeding them
the information in a very,like, structured way rather than
allowing them to feedinformation to each other.
Because past age 7, our kidsare most influenced by their friend

(01:13:38):
group, not by us or parents,not by their, like, family system.
It's the kids that theysurround themselves with.
You know what I mean?
We just need to be a littlebit more in control of what information
they're.
They're processing in that respect.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Well, this has been reallyexciting and I always love when we

(01:13:58):
end conversations and we'relike, oh my God.
But there's so much more totalk about.
Same.
So I am really looking forwardto setting up these conversations
and learning more that weshould know from earlier.
Yeah, we should.
We're learning.
We're trying.
I will, I'll email both of youthe sexual, the stage scale and a

(01:14:23):
couple of the other thingsthat we talked about today.
And if you have questions, letme know if you want to talk about.
About them again.
Well, I have one quick question.
So you're based in Hawaii.
Like, are you only takingclients who live in your area?
Good question.
Yes, good question.
So I'm licensed in Hawaii,Virginia, Florida and Maryland.

(01:14:43):
Okay.
And I take coaching clientsacross the world.
I also do retreats in Hawaii,like couples intimacy retreats.
And yeah, they're super fun inHawaii and in Florida a couple of
times throughout the year.
So, yeah, I'm kind of everywhere.
That's awesome.
Where can we learn about theretreats that are upcoming?

(01:15:05):
Yeah, so you can head over tomy website, which is bathurst familytherapy.com.
you can see me on Instagram,which is PhD.relationship I expert.
Yeah, we have a whole bunch ofservices that we're offering and
the retreats are so much fun.
So check them out.
Absolutely.
Oh, yay.
Wow.
Yeah, I will be checking.

(01:15:26):
Do you ever get.
Okay, one more.
Do you ever get single peoplegoing on any of those retreats?
I have been one for, yeah.
I've been wanting to do awomen's health retreat focused on
like body positivity, sexualexploration, but just for women.
Yeah, I, I'd love to do thatin the next next year.
I'm trying to find the rightfit co host who can help me with
that.

(01:15:46):
So I'll let you guys know.
Thank you.
That's awesome.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us.
It was so good.
It was great.
Thank you so much.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Aloha.
Oh, aloha.
And skirts out.
Did you like the episode thatyou heard today?

(01:16:08):
Great.
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And don't forget to rate and review.