Untraditional Education: Unschooling and Gentle Parenting For the Neurodivergent

In honor of back to school madness starting up, the Skirts Up Show, dive into the concept of unschooling with their guests, Sam (#2) and her daughter Kaya.

The discussion opens with some light-hearted banter and personal fail stories, setting a relaxed and engaging tone. Sam (#2) shares her journey of transitioning her children from a traditional schooling system to an unschooling approach, explaining the challenges and successes along the way. She describes how she adapted to providing her children with a more individualized learning experience, incorporating their unique interests and learning styles.

Kaya, Sam's 14-year-old daughter, shares her perspective on unschooling, highlighting how it has allowed her to explore her interests deeply and develop a love for learning. The conversation touches on the impact of unschooling on the family's dynamics and how it has fostered a sense of autonomy and responsibility in the children. Sam also talks about navigating her husband's initial skepticism and the eventual acceptance and support of the unschooling method.

The episode is filled with practical insights and real-life examples that illustrate the flexibility and benefits of unschooling. The hosts and guests discuss various educational philosophies, the importance of mental health, and the role of parents in facilitating a supportive learning environment.

Overall, this episode is a valuable resource for parents considering unschooling, providing both inspiration and practical advice from a family who has successfully embraced this educational approach.

• Learn more about Skirts Up
• Learn more from Sam on Unschooling and gentle parenting.
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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, you.
You're tuned in to the Skirtsup show with Samantha and Melissa.
Join our mission to normalizefailure, but still uncover the positives
at every twist and turn.
Skirts up, but keep yourpanties on.
What's up, Skirts up squad?
It's Samantha and Melissa, andwe are gonna have a bomb ass time

(00:24):
today.
I can already tell we have.
We are opening up with Sam,number two, because I'm number one,
obviously.
And we have her daughter with us.
Kaya.
Hi, guys.
Hi.
That was so cute.
It was in perfect unison.

(00:46):
That's probably the only timewe're in perfect unison.
Oh, this is for, like, theonly time.
I like your blind.
I told you guys.
This is gonna be hilarious ifyou can't tell already.
Usually Melissa and I kind ofdo a separate intro, but we thought
it'd be really fun to includethem in this intro and get the conversation

(01:06):
kicked off altogether.
Yeah.
So who wants to start withtheir, like, their fail?
Crickets.
I'm gonna go.
I literally hear crickets.
No, there's no.
Oh, actually that's hilariousbecause there is a cricket that is
in this.
Love it.
Yes.
So for the nights I've beenhere at work and working, and he's
like, in this back corner inthe shop, and he's just, like, cricketing

(01:29):
away.
And every time I go close tohim, he gets quiet.
And then if I stand still, hestarts cricketing again.
And then I'm like, I can't know.
I literally hear crickets.
But it's at my house.
Okay, well, so can I share my fail?
Hit it.
My fail.
And we'll just keep it reallyshort and simple and sweet.

(01:51):
It's literally just about notalways being good, about taking and
making time for myself.
So we.
I was supposed to go hang outwith Sam and some of our.
One of our other friends.
I'm gonna say shout out toCourtney and a couple.
We were supposed to go acouple weeks ago, but then something
happened and we had to changethe date.

(02:12):
And Sam texts me yesterday andshe's like, are you ready for tonight?
And I said, wait, what?
And I looked at the calendarand I was like, oh, no, is it the
Claremont thing?
And she's like, yes.
And basically, I have justbeen so overwhelmed with work.
I've been.
I was like.
I had stayed up the wholenight previous.
She's working terrible with that.

(02:34):
I am bad, but sometimes you just.
I just have to.
Yeah.
And so, like, I hadn't sleptin hours and I was just like, I.
I can't.
Like, I can't I'm at workright now.
I didn't go to home last night.
I was here yesterday.
I just have to.
I have to go home and sleep assoon as work is over.
And I was very sad, and Imissed getting to go downtown with

(02:55):
my friends.
Yeah.
And we've been talking a lotabout the entrepreneurship burnout.
So I'm hoping that you're ableto catch up and rejuvenate before
it gets.
I agree.
I want to rejuvenate.
Yeah.
Yeah, that word.
Thank you.

(03:18):
No, you're absolutely right.
I. I do need to.
I do need to, like, just kindof, like, take a step back sometimes.
So I. I'm working on it.
I think I might go back andlisten to that episode we did with
Jill, one of our very first episodes.
And she talked about howdifferent types of.
What.
She talked about how differenttypes of, like, learning abilities
that everybody has and.

(03:39):
Right.
How they operate and can,like, prioritize their needs and
what they want to do in their day.
And there was just so much funlittle tidbits, and I bet it would
be helpful to brush up on your architect.
Architect type archetype.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So I think that's what I'mgonna do.
Yeah.
But I realized recently thatI'm still using Ada dying a.

(04:03):
To my dog dying as a crutchfor not continuing all the, like,
awesome progress that I wasmaking because I had started journaling
and started planning out myweeks and planning out my months
and doing nightly oraclereadings, and just, like, it just
made my day go so muchsmoother every day.
And then when Ada died, Istopped doing all of that.

(04:25):
And I have felt in complete disarray.
Like, I feel like my brain isall over the place.
I feel like I'm not gettingthings done like I was.
And it felt so, so good when Iwas doing it.
And I keep saying, oh, I'llstart it next Monday.
I'll start it tomorrow.
I'll start it next Monday.
And I never do.
So my fail is that I keeppushing it off and I keep using a.

(04:46):
To dying as an excuse as towhy I stopped and why I'm not.
And the success is that I'mgoing to stop putting it off and
I'm going to get my life incheck again.
Well, I think you might needto go back and listen.
No, just kidding.
No, actually, I'm serious.
No, for real.
I keep hearing, eat your frog first.

(05:07):
Eat your frog first.
I keep hearing that, so.
Oh, that's funny, becausethat's Jill's episode I. I was thinking
about the episode we did withthe grief counselor and how she said,
yes, you have to feel your feelings.
But she also.
She.
Remember how she's like, Idon't want to offend anybody, but
you kind of.
You just can't wallow.
What did she.
There was something aboutpoopy diapers.

(05:29):
She said that a lot.
That.
Don't say your poopy diaper.
Oh, that.
I was like, I can't rememberwhat she said, but there was a lot
of poop and a lot of diapers.
There was one poop and onediaper, but we thought it was hilarious.
Oh, and didn't we talk aboutpoop last time, too?

(05:50):
Because I made you laugh.
I can't remember.
And now I'm making a 14 yearold laugh with poop.
It's not my fault.
Well, so, yeah.
Anyway, I don't think there'sanything wrong with the fact that
you had to, like, step backand take some time to grieve.

(06:11):
And I think it's wise of youto be like, you're.
You're being introspective andI'm proud of you.
First things.
It's time to get back on the.
I need to.
It felt so good.
And now here I am, like, justwinging it and it doesn't feel good.
So I need to do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Does.
So about Sam number two orKaya, do either of you have.

(06:35):
Which.
I have a dog named Kaya.
No, I think mine wouldactually be.
So I recently started seeing afunctional medicine doctor.
I've got some thyroid issuesand I'm struggling.
She's pretty sure I'mstruggling with adrenal fatigue.
So last week I had to come offall my ADHD medication.

(06:57):
Oh, no.
It was a struggle last week.
Yeah, shit.
Scum is probably the better word.
So, like, it was all I coulddo to keep my notes for work.
I'm not a super big procrastinator.
I'm working on my masters.

(07:18):
Literally turned that stuff inyesterday, three hours before the
deadline.
But it also reminded me thatprobably I don't slow down enough.
I'm somebody that's like,super busy.
And I told my husband lastweek, I was like, I'm realizing I
burned the candle not justfrom both ends, but also in the middle.
Wow.
So it was just kind of a goodreminder that even though the medication
helps me do everything I needto do, I also need to slow down,

(07:42):
like, because that's probablypart of why I've got adrenal fatigue.
So Wow.
I feel like that fits right on in.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Mine's a little more basic.
I was making candy bracelets.
It's the type of bead and Iwas literally tying it up and it

(08:02):
snapped on me and it hit my hand.
You just get to eat it now?
No, it's just a bead type.
They're just bigger beads.
Yeah.
I wish it was actual candy.
That would.
That would have made it somuch better, right?
Yeah.
I have to eat this bracelet now.
Darn right.

(08:22):
Oh my God.
That would be like Nora.
Nora has this popsicle.
My 3 year old, she's got thispopsicle addiction.
And so she'll like eat a popsicle.
She goes, can I have another one?
I'm sure.
And so four popsicles later,she goes, can I have another one?
And she just like cocks herhead to the side.
Please, mommy.
And don't say no, say yes.
And I go, okay, last popsicle,last one.

(08:45):
And she goes, okay.
And so I open up the lastpopsicle for her, she eats it and
then she comes back with apopsicle behind her back and she
goes, mom, I ate the wrong one.
I meant to eat this one.
How do you say lunch?
You did loophole, that's for sure.
That's Tate.
That's the story in our life.
Like, how do you say no to that?

(09:06):
You don't.
Kaya.
She's strict.
I like it.
Are there to be rules?
Not to be suggestions.
Really?
I'm learning about you, Kya.
Is this really how you feel?
Do you like having parents?
Okay, just to be clear, kaya,you're a 14 year old.

(09:27):
Do you like to have rules inthe house?
Like, you like following them?
It depends on what they are.
There's some rules that I'mlike, those are stupid.
I'm not following that.
And then there's other rulesthat are like, oh, yeah, that makes
sense.
Like, don't let the dogs outwhen the chickens are outside.

(09:47):
I'm looking at my brother.
That sounds like a great time.
She's also a very, verylenient mom, though.
Like, she doesn't care if Isneak out as long as I have my phone
on me.
Oh.
To be clear, she has neverdone it.
So I plan on it when I havefriends who will actually do it with
me and they aren't boring.

(10:08):
She's like, I've been tryingto plan my.
Okay, this is awesome.
We have a 14 year old here.
Who is like, I'm trying to plan.
My naughty adolescence that'scoming up.
It's not here yet.
Oh, no, no, no.
We joke with her that.
No, my husband and I.
My husband was not a good kid.
I was.
I've had a little bit, but itwasn't anything major.

(10:30):
I tell her all the time Iwouldn't have invited her to a party
because they would becrocheting and knitting in their
comfy pajamas and like sippingwine like they couldn't hang with
us.
That's what Kya and herfriends do.
Or that's what you did backwhen you were.
They would do.

(10:51):
That is true.
That is a 50 year old woman.
I hear it, I'm here for it.
I mean, right now my hair dyelooks gray, so.
Which I love it, by the way.
Looks like.
Oh, we love it.
Sam.
Number two.
We decided that it would befun to have you on the podcast because

(11:13):
you have a really uniqueperspective on different ways to
school, especially when thereis ADHD and other factors that make
it really difficult for ourkids in school.
Yeah.
So we did not start out that way.
Just so you know, I'm from afamily of teachers.
I grew up in a traditionaleducation system, went through school

(11:38):
and then when my son wasyounger, kindergarten actually.
He was about to get expelledfrom kindergarten.
Oh, wow.
From kindergarten you throw achair at a teacher.
Yeah.
So it's a three strike thing.
He's got severe adhd.
We did not know that's what itwas at the time.
But yeah, we had a couple ofincidences where he, like one of

(11:59):
them, he threw a chair orthrew a chair and broke a desk.
Okay.
Oh, geez.
Another incident where heended up kicking a teacher.
How old is he now?
So he's 11 now.
Okay.
Okay.
So I mean, yeah, he was fiveat the time, so.
And then there was anotherincident where they had to evacuate
a classroom and heaccidentally hurt one of his friends.
And the thing was like, assoon as he would come down and he

(12:22):
could get control of himself,he would literally sit in a corner
and cry.
He felt terrible.
And so.
But he was.
It like his adrenaline wasjust going.
When he got into situation, hestruggles with transitions and emotion
to speculation.
And so that was a really big thing.
And so especially at 5, likethey already struggle with that on
top of it.

(12:43):
But I was really, reallythankful to his kindergarten teacher.
She was getting ready toretire, so I don't think she genuinely
cared.
So she told me, she goes, heis so incredibly smart and there's
nothing wrong with him otherthan he has undiagnosed, unmanaged
adhd.
She was a former specialEducation teacher.
And she said, yeah, we gotreally lucky with her.

(13:05):
They were amazing.
And so she looked at me, andshe goes, if you could pull him out
and homeschool him for a fewyears, it would be the best thing
you could ever do.
She goes, he will get lost inour system, and he's just too smart.
Oh, my God.
And unfortunately, that tendsto be the story with a lot of our,
like, ADHD and autistic children.
And just our children that aredifferent, they don't quite fit.

(13:26):
So I removed him from school.
There was no plan.
My husband was on deployment.
He was about to be expelled.
And so I just pulled him.
I was like, I have no ideawhat I'm doing.
I had never imagined being ahomeschool parent.
Like, it was not even on my list.
Right.
I was actually working on mybachelor's at the time.
What were you studying?
I was actually studying.

(13:47):
Studying psychology with aminor in speech pathology.
Then two weeks later, Covidshut everything down.
Oh.
So, like, it was just, like,perfect timing.
So then she was in virtualschool when they were still trying
to figure out what it was.
And we were living in Virginiaat the time.
And so I watched her havethree panic attacks over reading.

(14:08):
And one of the things I hadjust recently learned was that the
brain is really not even readyto read till somewhere between around
8, 8 years old.
Okay.
And anything between 6 and 10is normal.
So I was like, okay, there's.
Yeah, so anything between 6and 10 is normal to read.
And we push kids too soon sometimes.

(14:30):
And especially, like, if theyhave any type of neurodivergence.
80 ADHDers are about 30% behind.
I did.
I have been learning that Iactually have a handful of friends
whose children have a really,really hard time in school.
They're, you know, constantlybeing kicked out of activities and
not allowed to attend otherevents that the other kids are allowed

(14:53):
to.
And one actually got expelledfor a little bit because just, again,
impulse controls, like, whatyou're explaining.
And usually the school cop cancome in and just deescalate and they
can carry on with their day.
And this time, he was able topull the gun out of the holster.

(15:13):
And he wanted to kill himself.
Shoot himself.
He didn't want to.
Like, he didn't actually want to.
But it's just, like, when.
I guess I personally don'thave any experience with it, but
I guess, like, when they're inthe motions of it, they just can't
control themselves.
And so, yeah, there's somestatistic that I've read Before that,
it's like ADHD kids areredirected 10 times more than a neurotypical

(15:39):
child.
And I mean, there's only somany times you can hear.
No, don't do that.
Stop.
This is too much.
Until you eventually start tointernalize it.
And that was kind of what Iwas afraid, especially with him.
And we now know.
We didn't know at the time.
Kaya is on the spectrum.
She's high functioning, but sothat makes her brain operate a little
differently.
Okay.

(16:00):
And so during COVID weactually PCs, we were military, so
we PCs to Maryland.
And what is PCs?
So we moved.
So it's a military move.
Sorry.
He went from.
He was.
He was stationed on a boat inVirginia and he went to get stationed
at Norfolk Academy in the Naval.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so I'm working.

(16:21):
I'm still working on mybachelor's degree at this time.
And we tried a whole.
What was it?
I think you guys made it twoweeks in virtual school.
And I told my husband, I waslike, I cannot police them in this,
in this setting.
This is not going to work forthem and get my schoolwork done and
still have my sanity intact.
So you've got a super late birthday.

(16:41):
Tayton's an April birthday.
So I was like, you know what,why don't we just pull them out?
Let's do this full homeschoolthing for a year.
Worst case scenario, we holdthem back a year.
Sure.
So I found this really amazingprogram in Maryland.
It was an unschooling program.
I didn't know they had anunschooling program program.
So the lady that runs it is phenomenal.

(17:02):
Like, she created this programfor her own kids.
She was a former teacher.
Wait, who?
Amy?
Oh, I love Ms. Amy.
And so I called her becausereally, I was just looking for a
place to put them for thesocial aspect and just also to, like,
get a break.
Sure.
So that I could do what Ineeded to do.
And so, like, at this point,we're still in the full, like, traditional

(17:23):
homeschool setting.
Like, these are the curriculum.
This is what you're going tobe doing, you know, and it was awful.
That was awful.
And so we met Amy and theystarted going and attending and Amy
started talking to me about unschooling.
So unschooling is kind of thismodel where we trust our children
and we allow them to kind ofexplore things when they're ready

(17:45):
and when they're interested.
And I mean, it makes sensebecause as adults, if I'm interested
in something and I dive In I'mgoing to retain a lot more information.
Yeah, I think I'm notinterested in.
So she started recommendingall these different books and started
reading them.
I'm a big reader, and I wasalso learning about brain development
because my bachelor's waspsychology with a minor in speech,

(18:07):
and it had a specialspecialization in child development.
So I'm learning all thesethings and it's all, like, connecting.
And I'm like, this makes somuch sense.
So, like, with her, we pushed reading.
She was struggling.
We were starting to wonder ifshe was dyslexic.
Okay, just go ahead and putthat out.
Like, today, this child isreading at a 12th grade level.
Like, she loves to read.

(18:28):
You love reading.
And I remember a time where Iliterally asked him to pick up a
book.
She would have cried.
So.
Because she was feeling.
You tell.
Tell us why.
Tell us.
What were you feeling?
Basically, it got reallystressful because I couldn't read
and I kept flipping theletters because no one taught me
any of the tricks tounderstand the letters.

(18:48):
They just taught me words.
You were supposed to know howto put them together because of your
parents.
And all they did was teach us.
Cypress.
There was no correctlysounding out.
I learned that on my own timewith a reading tutor.
And now I have read everysingle Rick Riordan book he has released.
And they're perfect.

(19:10):
I remember because.
So I went to school.
I was going to be a teacher.
I wanted to be a schoolcounselor when I was.
I. I like a psychology.
Like, you know, I mean.
But in Texas, you have to be ateacher for three years first.
So I went through the program.
I did my practicums and everything.
I actually, just because oflife, I ended up dropping out in
the very last semester beforeI got my bachelor's.

(19:32):
But that was one of the thingsthat I got to do was go in and work
with kids and help them readand like, learning.
And it.
You're right.
That's exactly what it is.
Like you.
They expect kids to just learnsight words.
Yeah.
And nothing against teachers.
I'm from a family of teachers,and I know how hard they work.
But the reason we really pushearly literacy is because it makes

(19:53):
it easier on the teacherbecause the kids can read.
We got her.
And it was so interestingbecause we met this amazing reading
tutor when we were inMaryland, and it's who I got for
her.
And she specialized in dyslexia.
So I was worried that maybeshe was dyslexic.
Turns out neurodivergentbrains don't actually Learn to read
in the same way.
Okay.

(20:13):
And so we, that's what we learn.
Like ADHD brains, autisticbrains, sometimes they need less
steps.
And it's a lot easier to say this.
Most what school teaches is a.
This is the letter A.
And A says ah, yeah.
What her tutor taught her wasthis is a picture of the sound.
Ah, yeah.
So they took a step.

(20:35):
So it made a lot of difference.
And so we did the first year.
My husband's still not onboard, like at this point.
Like my husband thought it wasnuts and.
But the unschooling, theunschooling, like the whole approach.
Because it also changed myparenting style.
Okay, how.
And when you said you stumbledacross the unschooling in that they
enrolled.
So are they going to someoneelse that's doing the unschooling

(20:57):
for them or is this somethingthat you've learned and you're doing
for them yourself?
So it was kind of acombination of both.
So the unspilling group wasmore of like a social thing.
They would.
And the way it is is like,we're not teachers, we're facilitators.
So we facilitate anopportunity and it's up to them if
they choose to take the opportunity.
So that's what the program was.

(21:18):
It was really a socialgathering so they could meet their
friends and hang out and thenthere would be classes and the kids
could choose if they wanted todo the class or not.
So after the first semester, Iwas like, you know what?
I'm going to try this wholeunschooling thing out.
I'm hating this teachingcurriculum again.
Worst case scenario, I'll holdthem back a year.
Because they're, they werejust, they were both young for their

(21:38):
age.
So I was like, worst casescenario, I'll hold them back here.
By the end of the year, we dida standardized test and they were
both at or above grade levelin everything.
And we had not touched acurriculum at this point in like
six months.
Wow.
So I was like, well, maybethere is something to this.
And so then I started seeing her.
She was starting to read andshe was starting to find her own

(21:59):
interests and she was deepdiving into things like that.
And it was so cool.
And then my son, we neverpicked up a curriculum.
Now I will preface that with,he's the type of kid we have learned
he does not do anything untilhe is ready.
And then when he does it,like, you never know.
He was late.
So he did that with walking, talking.
Everything okay, I'm still better.

(22:22):
He so she was early witheverything, so she kind of set a
bar high.
So I had to, like, readjust myexpectations with him.
Yeah.
So he did not learn to readtill he was about nine and a half.
And I'll never forget, we weresitting in the bedroom and he just
starts reading.
And I was like, you can read.
And the re.
The way we had done that, Ihad followed, like, all the unschoolers.

(22:43):
They had told me, like, hewanted to chat with his friends on,
like, Minecraft and thingslike that.
So I had set him up with anold phone that had voice chat.
So he would speak into thephone what he wanted to say, it would
type it up for him, and thenhe would type it in.
And that is how he learned to read.
Oh, wow.
So.
Basically he learned becausehe wanted to and he needed to, and

(23:07):
it was quick.
Yeah.
And it was with him.
Potty training was the sameway, actually, because, like, we
tried for years.
We tried for a couple ofyears, and I finally gave up.
And then my husband was on adeployment and he woke up on a Tuesday
morning and yelled, I have to pee.
That's.
That's that kid.
I still remember that.
Like, that was him.
Like, the door open, you know,I started seeing, like.
And it takes time.
Like, you have to learn.

(23:27):
But unschooling is aboutlearning to trust your kid.
Okay.
And it's totally opposite ofwhat we're told.
Like, kids can't be trusted.
Yeah.
And so it's about learning totrust your children and that they
want what's best forthemselves and, like, intuitively,
like, they know.
I mean, it doesn't mean Idon't guide them, and it doesn't
mean I don't push them.
Tayton recently got diagnosedwith a reading and writing disability

(23:50):
connected to his adhd.
Okay.
So we now have a tutor for him.
Okay.
So she is using something.
He's got some, like, shortterm memory issues connected to his
adhd.
So they're going back now andthey're filling some of those holes
and she's like, helping expand in.
But his math skills, I mean,he said he's about to be a 6th grader.
His math school skills are 8thgrade level because he loves math.

(24:14):
And so we open the right doors and.
But, like, what does that look like?
Because.
So I think that's like a bigquestion about unschooling is.
So you hear that the kids areguiding what they want to learn and
how they learn it.
But of course, they need toknow basic math and stuff.
So what is it that they bringto you and is like, oh, teach me

(24:36):
math.
That would help them elevateto above grade level.
Yeah.
So unschooling does not meanthe absence of schools or curriculum
or classes.
It just simply means that wekind of follow them and when they're
ready.
I mean, Tayton, he's beenworking with math workbooks for a
long time.
He's really into engineering,so he does a lot of engineer stuff

(24:58):
that requires higher level math.
So him and my husband, theywork together and like, he shows
him in real time how he'sgoing to use it and.
Can I. I just want tointerject one thing.
One of my best friends didunschooling for years and this was
like, before it was cool.
I'm not saying I don't know,but it was about 20 years ago.

(25:19):
It was no, maybe 15.
But anyway, I think, becauseif you're doing it correctly, I.
Watching her, it was more workthan any parent I ever saw.
Like, it was amazing watching her.
Like, if, if her son came toher and was just like, hey, how does,
how does the engine in the car work?

(25:40):
Like, I don't understand.
Like, she would have, like,she would delve into it.
Like, it became a thing.
It's like she got really goodat just listening to them and then
trying to like go and find theright doors to open for him, which
I thought was.
It was hard work watching itfrom the outside.
And it's so hard as a parentbecause like, you want to be like,

(26:01):
this is how you do it.
But the philosophy is a lot of like.
And it works.
Like, I'm going to show you alittle bit, but I also want you to
mess up and fail forward likeyou guys were talking about in the
beginning.
Like, I want you to learn hownot to do things really obviously
within a safety realm.
You know, I'm not going to lethim learn how electricity works like

(26:22):
electrocute.
By putting a waffle in the socket.
Yes, exactly.
I mean, that's a lot of whatit is.
It's allowing them.
You're still facilitating the interest.
And a prime example.
And then I'll gonna let hertell you a little bit about it is
history.
I love history.
History is incredible.
And I will never forget whenshe was in public school, it was
subject she hated the most.

(26:43):
Absolutely hated the way theytaught it.
And I kept trying to explainto her, like, history isn't all about
dates.
It's about philosophy andethics and morality.
And, you know, it's learningfrom your past.
And so I never pushed it with Her.
And then was it about twoyears ago she found the Rick Riordan
books and now she has.

(27:04):
She has developed her owninterest in history.
Okay, so.
Okay, tell me more about theRick Riordan books because it's the
second time that you mentioned them.
Okay, so they are hyper fixation.
I have.
So I have an entire Pinterestfan art board with over 500 pins.
And it starts off with thePercy Jackson series.
Oh, that feels like everyone'sheard of.

(27:26):
Yes, thank you.
It's mythology.
And then he incorporate.
Incorporates it into like themodern times as the.
At the time he's writing the book.
And if I had found these whenI was younger or I read them in.
In the Times they were.
I was supposed to.
Which was once a year.
Well, we don't want to supposeto on yourself.

(27:46):
I would have grown up with the characters.
Okay.
But basically, in the firstbook, big bombshell.
Ha.
Surprise.
The main character is ADHD anddyslexic because the book answer
is their brains were made forwar and.

(28:07):
And ancient Greek becausethey're demigods, technically speaking.
And I feel like if I had grownup with the books, it would have
made me feel a little bit lessweird for not knowing how to read
properly and I would have feltmore understood.
And also then you startdelving into different types of mythology.
He's got the Kane Chronicles,which is Egyptian mythology.

(28:29):
Oh, wow.
Magnus Chase, which is Norse mythology.
And then you've got one offbooks with the different characters.
And they're very interestingbecause what it does is, for me,
it triggered an interest inmythology and now I know way too
much.
So just to be clear, these arebooks with characters in it and the

(28:53):
storyline is based off of theactual, you know, the actual stories.
And that's how you're learning.
It takes some creative liberties.
I will say that it's notentirely accurate, especially with
Calypso in that one.
Book, but does that make youkind of want to go and be what was
real, what were.

(29:13):
What was it does.
And she had to tell me to stoptalking about it because I was talking
about it so much.
But I read all five Percy Jackson.
Well, I listened to all fivePercy Jackson books audible in about
a week.
Oh, wow.
They're all 10 hours a piece.
That's amazing.
That is a hyper fixation.

(29:34):
I understand because I'm also.
I mean, and that's anotherbenefit too, like, of unschooling
is that they learn to go andfind the information of the things
they're interested in.
And so that's what it did, itled to this deep dive in Greek mythology
and Roman mythology and NordicNorse myth, Norse mythology and Egyptian

(29:55):
mythology.
And then it turned into, likea deep dive in European geography.
Really.
It started with, I wanted toknow the history behind, like, the
evolution of the mythology.
Because if you go way back,Dionysus was not a freaking frat
boy.
He was, I'm gonna murder you if.
You do the wrong thing.
Watching Hercules with her is torture.

(30:17):
You never want to do it.
I will point out everyinconsistency, every.
Heracles, Hercules is Romanfor sake, people.
Oh, my God, I love that.
Okay, so does this lead intolike, actual, like, evolution as
taught in school?
Like going from the mythologyinto, like, normal?

(30:41):
If you want to call it that?
Yeah, it does.
Because then I was like, oh,well, what about Greek history?
How did this happen?
How.
Why did they evolve?
What were the Greek dark ages?
And then it delves into, oh,well, I want to know more about the
countries they were inconflict with and how they evolved.
Oh, and that goes into knowingreally random facts that nobody needs

(31:04):
to know.
Kaya, are you also adhd?
I don't know.
Oh, she's diagnosed adhd.
We're not really sure if it'sodd ADHD or just sometimes autism.
And girls can appear like ADHDuntil they're older.
So it's when people haveautism and adhd.

(31:26):
Yeah, it's fun little mix,wanting a system but not having the
energy to keep it going.
It's craving organization andthriving on organization.
But your brain really can'tcomprehend actually doing organization.
It has a pride.
Example, I love organization.
I have Google Docs full ofinformation on history that I read
through.
Oh, like, that's like mybrother, we.

(31:47):
Used to tease him that hishobby was like, like making spreadsheets.
We're like, I love making.
Go home and make a spreadsheet.
Okay, I love making spreadsheets.
Everything's so organized.
Yes.
Interesting.
So how do kids who struggle,like some of my friends kids, they
have, they find interests andthey find these hobbies and they

(32:09):
love them.
But because of how the brainworks for them, with ADHD and being
on the spectrum, they can'tfocus on what it is that they want
to learn about.
So is there, like a trick tohelp them focus on what it is that
they even want to know?
Well, typically with adhd,like, when you're really interested
in something, you're going tohyper focus, like to the point where

(32:32):
it's honestly obnoxious.
That's kind of how my.
My Interest in mental healthactually started was with my son
and delved into every book Icould find.
I do actually have, and Idon't know, this could be their option,
their thing.
I've always struggled withreading itself, and we recently had
learned when we were goingthrough a diagnosis for our son and

(32:52):
when his reading disabilitygot diagnosed, that ADHD don't always
process reading correctly.
And so when I discoveredaudiobooks, my life changed.
So because I read at the paceI talk and then my vision kind of
like jumps around, like, it'sreally hard to focus.

(33:13):
That's what used to happen to me.
Like, I would.
They thought that I was OCDbecause I would say, look, I keep.
If I miss one word on thepage, like, I have to keep going
back and figuring out which itwas because I know I missed it.
Yeah.
And we thought that it was.
For a while they were thinkingit was ocd, but it turns out it was
add.
Yeah.
And so, I mean, that.

(33:34):
That could be it.
They could be trying to readthis information and their brain
is just not processing it correctly.
It could also be breaking itinto bite sizes.
I know we talk a lot about,like, you know, ADHD years need shorter
workflows.
I don't know if I always agreewith that, because if I'm in a hyper
focus, don't interrupt me,because it's really hard for me to

(33:57):
get back into.
That's why I work better aloneinstead of during the day when everybody's
at the shop.
Yeah, yeah.
And I would think it too,would also go back to kind of what
you guys were actually talkingat the beginning with the different
learning styles.
Like, I kind of have a theory.
I really don't have anyresearch to support it, but I kind
of have a theory that mostpeople that are ADHD at least have

(34:17):
like, a sense that's moreheightened than others.
So it might be an idea to likehow they learn better.
Maybe kinetically or auditoryor visual.
Interesting.
My auditory is, like, really heightened.
I get agitated easily with toomuch noise.
Yeah, Yeah.
I can hear everything.

(34:38):
We all do.
Yeah.
So, I mean, I don't know.
I guess that would be myguess, but I think if it would just
kind of depend on what they'retrying to learn.
My son really has an interestin martial arts, and we've tried
multiple martial arts studios,and unfortunately, it's just too
slow for him.
Like, he needs to be moving.
He's our too much energy allthe time kid.
And so as much as he loved it,it wasn't a good Fit for him because

(35:02):
he just needs to move more.
Okay, how does unschoolingwork for a busy parent who's like
kind of out of options ordoesn't like, it's just school isn't
working for them, butobviously we need education.
How does a busy parent withlike a full time job incorporate
unschooling?
Or is it just not going to befor them?

(35:22):
Yeah.
So let me go ahead and tell you.
Like, I have worked at leastpart time or full time the entire
time.
And the problem in Maryland,we had an amazing support system.
We had the tutorial where Icould go drop them off for a few
hours a day.
We had amazing friends.
Like, it's a big thing up there.
Like people don't look at youweird when you tell them you unschool

(35:44):
your kids.
We moved here about a year anda half ago and it's been a lot more
difficult since we.
We'd moved here.
We actually had made the decision.
And this is actually still unschooling.
It's allowing your children tomake their own choices.
So Kaya is actually going tobe attending a charter school next
year.
Okay.
And you're excited?
I want friends who actuallycome over and hang out with me.

(36:08):
Okay.
And Tayton is going to beattending a forest school in the
area.
A forest program that's localhere to Buford Cultural.
It's called Trailblazers.
It's a really cool secular program.
I'm sorry, you said forest asin like trees?
Forest outside.
Like they're outside.
It's a really cool program.
It's gonna be a great fit for him.
They do a couple of hours oflike, independent study work, which

(36:30):
we've picked his curriculumfor that.
Like, we get to tailor it.
He's doing an engineering unit study.
I've had to put a lot of workinto making sure that he can do that
without me.
But then he'll get like in theevenings, like, they're actually.
Their hope is when they get tohigh school, they'll be able to include
internships and things like that.
Oh, wow.
This program is not designedfor ADHD and autistic kids, but it

(36:51):
seems to be the people thatthey, the kids they attract.
Interesting because maybebecause they're just out there in
the, in nature getting tolike, move around and do things.
And the one of the ladies thatruns it is actually a therapist,
so it was so funny.
So my son also has odd, soOppositional defiance disorder.
So they're the kids, they pushback on authority like nobody's business.

(37:13):
That's a diagnosis.
It is, yes.
Oh, my gosh.
I'm thinking about, you know who.
Yeah, yeah.
No.
And, yeah, this is really helpful.
I wonder if it may actuallyjust be a symptom of ADHD, because
ADHDers, they don't just dowhat people tell them to do.
We want to know why, you know?
But I always tell my husband,I'm like, I'm afraid if I put him

(37:33):
in the public school system asan odder, that I think it's gonna
be an amazing trait when he'san adult, I want him to never be
afraid to push back, to question.
I just want him to learn to doit respectfully.
Right.
And so when I told her thatwhen someone was odd, she goes, I
love odd kids.
And I'm like, you're the onlyperson in the history of anything
ever said.
That you push back passive aggressively.

(37:58):
Okay.
That's what I've learned,especially online.
You push back passive aggressively.
Okay.
So, yeah, so he will actuallybe attending that.
Had we stayed in Maryland, wewould probably still be in the same
way we were.
The program we had before,they had homecomings and proms and
graduations, and theyfacilitated classes if the kids were

(38:21):
interested in them.
Unfortunately, that's not hereunless we go closer to Atlanta.
Gotcha.
And so since I have to workfull time, um, I work full time,
remote, thankfully.
So my schedule is, you know,very flexible for the most part.
Um, and where did you.
Okay, so, like, where did youeven find out?

(38:42):
Like, where would a parent orsomeone go to find out about these
other programs?
So you can actually snap.
What is the website?
There is a website, and if you.
I'll find it and I can give itto you guys and you can link it.
Yeah, but it's specificallyfor alternative education.
Okay.
His program is considered ahomeschool program, but they're fully
accredited.

(39:02):
Okay.
So he would graduate with a diploma.
Okay.
So unschooling is just a termthat says you let your kids decide
kind of where they want to goand how they want to go about it.
Because charter school is a school.
My kids are in charter school.
Like, it's a public.
She's.
It's a public high school thatshe's going to be attending in Barrow
County.
It's an arts and scienceacademy that she's really, really
excited about.

(39:22):
Yeah.
But.
Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
It's about allowing yourchildren to lead their own education.
And we have a couple of rulesor with.
Around her starting school isthat she has to finish the Full year.
And if she decides at the endof the year that that's not what
she wants, then we'll find another.
Okay.
Fair?
Fair.
Because I think that's theother thing is, you know, children

(39:43):
may want to do something, theyget into it, then they don't, and
it just, it changes a lot andit goes a lot of back and forth.
But you are putting theboundary and the structure of, okay,
we can do that, but the dealis we're going to see it through
and then you can change your mind.
Yes.
And that's, you know, I feellike unschooling fits perfectly.
So we consider ourselves likegentle parents.
And I think it fits reallyperfectly into that model of respecting

(40:06):
your children.
And I always have tocommunicate to my father in law,
who is very like old school,that military.
Just because I don't yell andscream at my kids does not mean we
do not have our boundaries andour consequences.
Right.
I just have different ways ofgoing about it.
Like the grounded letter.
We don't spank them, we don'tground them.
We do have what we call agrounded letter.
What's that?

(40:26):
So they have it.
We have like a first time weask you as a warning, second time,
you lose whatever privilege orwhatever privilege until you finish
whatever it is we ask.
And second to the third time,you get a grounded letter.
And so the grounded letter isjust certain amount of points that
they have to earn withdifferent chores and things around
the house.
And it takes theresponsibility off of me to them.

(40:48):
So it's not my job to get youungrounded, it's yours.
So if you're stubborn, you canbe grounded for an entire year and
there's nothing she can doabout it.
It's your problem.
Oh, I love that.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
And that's a big thing aboutunschooling is like we shift the
child appropriateresponsibility to our children.
Like, it is your choice todecide how you want to learn, what

(41:12):
you want to learn.
That's amazing.
You know, parenting is thesame way.
Like we tell our kids all thetime of the time, our house is a
democracy.
There's a handful of timesthat it's a monarchy.
And you just have to trust weknow best.
Yeah.
But because situationalmonarchy, that's what that is.
Okay, thank you.
I did not know that.
Thank you.
But because we allow for thisfreedom and choice and they feel

(41:32):
like they're heard when thereis an issue.
And we've changed rules beforein our house because they could make
a really good Case.
That means that when we do putour foot downs, they trust us.
They understand.
Like, it doesn't mean they don't.
They love it.
I mean, they still push backand they may not like it, but they
don't.
We don't have a lot ofbehavioral issues out of our kids.
Oh, they know that you willlisten to them.

(41:55):
This is unfair.
This isn't right.
Or, like, interesting.
Do you have, like, anexperience with that, Kaya, that
you can think of, like the.
Because you're just over therenodding your head.
I was just wondering what you were.
Thinking of the one time wewere walking home and I was in elementary
school, and I went, are you.
Are swimsuits good for the environment?

(42:16):
Okay.
Which is.
And I was like, well, if theyhold the water and they dry faster,
do they contribute to evaporation?
Because I had just learnedabout it.
Oh, okay.
So what were you trying.
What were you trying to, like,were you trying to say, oh, should
we.
We'd be wearing swimming suits?
Or what were you like?
No, it was just a random thought.

(42:39):
I was debating her on it onthe walk home.
Okay.
I mean, you know, we still.
She's still a teenage girl,and we're very different and she's.
We're very different people.
And so we got into an argument.
I don't know.
It's a couple months ago.
I don't remember what it was over.
And she definitely needs towork a little bit on her anger management.

(43:05):
But we.
After we calmed down, like, Iwas able to, like, reflect on what
she said and that there wassome truth in what she was telling
me.
And so we were.
Just a few days ago.
Just a few days ago.
That too.
But this specific argument, Iremember, it was pretty big because
my husband even said, like,you guys don't normally fight like
that.
And so I don't remember.

(43:27):
Again, I don't rememberexactly what it was about.
But we ended up.
I.
The next morning, we sat downover breakfast and we talked, and
we were able to kind of cometo a compromise.
Like, I was able to hear herpoint of view and what she was trying
to communicate with me.
And I was.
She was also in a good placeat that point to communicate with
me, like, how she was feeling.
And we were able to find a compromise.
Right.

(43:47):
When not all of the, like,high emotions were emotions flying
around.
Yeah.
And I mean, as a parent, Ithink it's so important.
Like, you know, I'm from thesouth too, so I was raised like,
my parent is right.
End of story.
Like, right.
I think it's so importantbecause they have their own thoughts
and feelings and emotions andtheir truths are different than ours.
You know, we can think thatwe're doing everything perfect and

(44:09):
we're still missing some ofthe mark.
It doesn't mean we have to beperfect, but it does mean that it's
okay to be reflective on whatwe're doing as a parent.
You know, and this is pretty, pretty.
It's a, it's a reallyinteresting thing to really think
about because you're teachingthem normal human skills, like communication
skills by sitting there andsaying, hey, let's see each other's

(44:32):
perspective now that we'reboth on a level playing field.
Like these are things that youmiss really in a traditional like
upbringing.
And that's why we have, youknow, comes back to mental health
problems that are just atlarge because we're not learning
how to properly communicate.
And honestly, what's alsoreally cool is that I am becoming

(44:56):
an RTT therapist.
And part of that is how we aretalked to, treated and taught and
things that we perceive as achild, how that carries on into us
as a adult.
So a child perceiving.
Oh, I was, every time I didsomething wrong, I was grounded.

(45:16):
My perception as an eight yearold was that my parents didn't love
me enough to allow me to do xyz.
Is that true?
No.
The parent loves you.
And that's possibly, probablywhy you were grounded is because
they were trying to teach youand trying to help you do better.
But as an 8 year old, yourperception was they don't love me.
And that is why I keep gettinggrounded to my room and grounded

(45:37):
from my books or whatever.
And so it's really interestingto hear.
The flip side of it is thatyou are taking the time to learn
that.
And I, I.
That really might solve somany problems if we really all took
the time to really take thetime to do that.
Yeah, I mean, I work with kidsand I notice the thing that I have
learned in the two and a halfyears that I've been working with,

(46:01):
the company I work with is thekids that I work with that have involved
parents.
The parents that are willingto like check their egos at the door
and recognize that even thoughthey love their kids and nothing
is done out of malice, like weknow that everything they're doing
is out of love sometimes.
I mean, kind of my runningjoke with them is like, your kid
is a Maytag washer that camewith a Whirlpool manual.

(46:22):
So of course they're not goingto work correctly until you understand
how they're operating.
Like, we've got to get you tounderstand how they specifically
are operating.
Right.
And so the parents that are sosuccessful with the kids that we
work with are.
Or the kids that aresuccessful are the parents that are
involved and they're willingto be like, hey, you know, maybe

(46:43):
I was doing this wrong for them.
Yeah.
You know, and so these are thekids that are successful.
So I work specifically withanxiety and OCD at work, but, like,
you know, parents unintentionally.
I know she hates it sometimes,but, like, when we were in Alaska,
she did some exposures and some.
What?
We do exposure therapy.

(47:04):
Sorry.
So she did some exposure.
She's got mild social anxiety,as we all do.
Yeah.
So, you know, there's thingslike, you know, I. I understand that
ordering this meal is reallydifficult for you at the moment.
I'm going to be here tosupport you, but I'm not going to
do it for you.
Right.
You know, and so that's.
I think that's the big thingthat so many people don't get with

(47:25):
kids is like, we can treat ourkids respectfully and still have
our boundaries.
Right.
You know, we have a boundaryin our house.
Like, we're not going to cussat each other when we're angry, you
know.
Yeah.
We're not going to treat eachother disrespectfully.
We're not going to push boundaries.
And it.
Just because there's aconsequence doesn't mean it has to
be in a way that, you know,damages the relationship.

(47:48):
Yeah.
Now, I'm sorry.
No.
I was just gonna mention aboutthe exposure therapy.
When I was young, I.
My dad.
I can't remember how he foundout, but I was afraid to answer the
phone or I didn't want toanswer the phone or something like
that.
And he was just like, oh, thisis a thing that you have a hard time

(48:11):
with.
So you're going to be mysecretary now?
Yeah.
I feel like he could have.
I feel like he could have doneit a little more gently, but basically
he just gave me all of his,like, because he was a general contractor,
and it was my job to suddenlystart calling and setting up his
appointments, and he'd comeout to do an estimate and stuff like

(48:32):
that, and I was just like.
It was.
It was terrifying for me at the.
In the beginning, but now it'slike, hey, yeah, I can still, like,
as an adult to this day, yes,I do have some social anxieties,
but I can push through them.
That is hilarious because I, Ihad the same thing in, like, the
restaurant.
There was this rule where thephone isn't going to.

(48:52):
Isn't allowed to ring morethan twice.
And, like, it wasn't my job toanswer the phone.
So, like, I'd always be like,oh, the phone's ringing.
I'm gonna run this way.
And so I got caught, like, youknow, phone's ringing and I'm just
going, la.
I'm gonna go this way.
And they're like, no, no, no.
Answer the phone.
And I was like, I don't.
I don't know what to say.
I don't want to.
Like, it's just really stressful.
I don't know.
And it's really stressful.
And so I was a smart ass and Ianswered the phone, I go, buddy the

(49:15):
elf, what's your favorite color?
And then that didn't fly either.
So then they never made meanswer the phone again.
But.
I, like, whenever I get a scamcall, my favorite is welcome to Souls
because that's our last name.
Restaurant.
And mortuary.

(49:35):
And mortuary.
You kill them, we grill them.
That's something my dad usedto say.
That was one of the.
On the phone.
Oh, my God.
They never called back.
But also, if you're textbefore you call, please establish.
This is just like a, a, a norm now.

(49:56):
It should be.
Now that Ka.
Did I hear you say earlierthat you and your husband are kind
of on different ideals?
What did I say?
Kaya?
Oh, yeah.
Not you, Kaia.
I mean, I hope you're not married.
Totally fair.
Totally fair.

(50:16):
Now, did she say I want a wife?
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm so sorry.
I did not have to push a.
Husband on you, but please donot decide to get married right now
because that's.
It's not fun.
Yeah, no.
She's not allowed to getmarried till 30.
And I've told either of themif I'm a grandmother before, like
55, they did something.
I support this.

(50:38):
Perfect.
Okay, so, Sam, did I hear youcorrectly earlier when you said that
your husband's not 100% onboard with the unschooling?
So what does that look like?
He wasn't in the beginning.
Absolutely was not.
He was so terrified.
And I think it's a littledifferent too.
Like, so my parents are 80s kids.
Like, they're.

(50:59):
They had me young.
I. I had my kids young.
So my, my parents are like 80s kids.
And my husband's parents are alot older, so, like, they're in their
70s and 80s, so he was raisedvery Differently.
And so he loved school.
There's a lot more to that story.
But he loved school.
And so I think one of thethings he was really afraid of in

(51:22):
the situation was like, wewere taking that experience away
from them, but it took himhonestly, two or three years, like,
of like every time I turned around.
Are they going to go back topublic school?
When are they going back to school?
Like, interesting.
And then we gave them.
Was about two years in two anda half years.
And we gave them astandardized test because that was

(51:42):
the rule in Maryland.
They had to take astandardized test every couple of
years.
And we gave it to them, andthey just did so well.
Like, I think that was kind ofhis moment where it was like, okay,
well, this might be different,but it is working.
And then he's recently.

(52:02):
And honestly, I think in thelast year sounds crazy.
Like, we've been doing thissince 2000.
But yeah, he.
Or yeah.
20.
20.
Oh, I was doing that the other.
The other month.
I was saying 1999 or I wastrying to say 99.
And I kept saying, it doesn't matter.
Anyway, so he was very like,like, honestly, like, he pushed.

(52:23):
And then as our son started todo better because we had that space
to, you know, allow him whenhe was having an outburst, to regulate
like we were.
We were.
Because I always.
I've always told him, I waslike, I would rather.
I would rather my kids bebehind in education and mentally

(52:46):
and emotionally be able to dotheir life.
Life, like, Right.
That's more important to mebecause we can always catch up.
But it's.
Personally, I know how hard itis to go through seven years of,
like, trying to process everything.
And so that was neversomething I wanted for them.
And so as he started to, like,notice now he's a huge advocate for
it.
Like, my.

(53:07):
We have a.
A nephew that they're havingsome trouble.
And they.
They were called us, like, Iwould never forget.
They told me we were going toruin our kids by homeschooling.
They told you that, too?
And now.
Wow.
Yeah.
They.
Now they're asking us abouthomeschooling because their son is
struggling in high school.
Yeah.
And so now he's like.

(53:28):
He's probably still not as,like, involved as I am.
He had.
Definitely has his.
His things, but he loves thatthey're learning what they're interested
in.
It makes so much more sense tohim now.
Right.
Yeah.
So I think it's about lettingpeople see the results.

(53:48):
Yeah.
And also recognizing theresults are not always academic.
Like, you know, my My sonbeing able.
When he left kindergarten, hewas having a hard time even holding
friends.
Okay.
And now the biggest issue wehave is He's a normal 11 year old
boy.
And if you like astrology,he's an Aries too.
So he, he has a temper.

(54:09):
So that's like our biggestissue right now is he's an 11 year
old boy with a temper.
And so, you know, we'reworking on that one.
Yeah.
But, you know, he's.
He's got friends and most ofthe time he can regulate himself.
And I joke all the time.
He's got a bigger IQ EQ thanmost adults, so, you know, he can
literally sit and be like,dad, I can see you're having a hard

(54:30):
time.
Oh.
So.
And, you know, I think it's acombination of like, trusting the
process and then him seeingsome of the results.
And now he's like, I get it.
So you and your husband havelike an agreed upon time of like,
hey, give me two years or giveme a year.
And if you agree that you see,like positive results, then like,

(54:51):
let's keep trying it.
Or originally it was just thefirst year.
Okay.
Like I said, she's got a superlate birthday.
She's an August kid, so she'sgot a really late birthday.
And then Tayton, you know,being April and also being adhd,
knowing he's a little bitbehind, like, executive functioning
wise.
Yeah.
We were like, you know, itwouldn't hurt.
And then, I mean, even afterthe first year, he was like, he didn't.

(55:16):
I don't know if he loved theidea, but he didn't fight me.
Like, he was.
They were.
Yeah, he was growing.
Yes.
And so by the second year,again, I still don't think it was
his first choice, but he waslike, all right, well, whatever we're
doing, at least we're notgoing to ruin him.
I mean, it's hard.
Like, you're, it's ingrained.
Like, it's scary.

(55:36):
And so, like, it's gonna behard to.
When you're told nohomeschooling or against.
The grain, it's bad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Going against the grain, doinganything that's.
Outside of the normal is terrifying.
Yeah.
And, you know, so kudos tohim, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he's very.
He's.
He doesn't do spreadsheets forfun, but I think he would enjoy doing

(55:59):
spreadsheets for fun if heever got into it.
Gotcha.
He's a hunter and a fisher andlike that whole, like, process of,
like doing something in Acertain way, like, makes him very
excited.
So I'll teach you how to make spreadsheets.
So.
Yeah.
So again, he didn't love it.
I would never tell you, like,if you're.

(56:20):
If your is, like, totally,absolutely against it, like, you
know, see what you can do.
Like, take them.
We went to a homeschoolconvention last year with me.
Love that too.
Like, I think that was evenjust another.
He was already on board, but,like, it was, like, eye opening.
Like, these kids are smart,they're articulate.
Like, there's that old, like,you know, stereotype that homeschool

(56:45):
kids are weird and they are,like, we're all weird.
And they, like.
I think it's like, I always.
I think it's the weird and,like, they don't have to conform.
Right.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Outside the box.
And it's okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So now you are.
You coach people on.
How to.
What specifically are youcoaching people on?

(57:06):
So I work for a company.
They're unfortunately not inGeorgia, but it's a.
It's a healthcare company thatspecializes in pediatric OCD and
anxiety.
So we take kids that, youknow, everything from mild worries
to refusing to go to school.
Okay.
And, you know, kids thataren't leaving the house or, like,

(57:26):
their parents can't even leavefor five minutes or be out of their
sight.
Like, we take those kids.
Oh, wow.
And so I started that a coupleof years ago, and this.
Sorry, real quick.
Is something that insurancewould cover.
It is.
Yeah.
So they work with insurance.
I cannot wait for them to getto Georgia so that.
I just can think of so manypeople that would benefit from the

(57:48):
program here.
Yeah.
And it's.
It's a unique model because wework with a therapist and then we
coach, and then there's a psychiatrist.
So if they choose medicationmanagement, we have it.
But we also have a therapistwho's doing kind of the heavy work.
But as a coach, what I loveabout coaching is I'm not focused
on, you know, what happened toyou in your childhood.

(58:08):
What I'm focused on is thethings that you're good at.
What are your skills?
What can we use to motivate you?
What are your goals?
How do we get you from A to B?
Okay.
You know, got a kid right nowthat's refusing school.
Well, our goal right now isshe wants to play soccer at recess
with her friends.
Yeah.
I don't know if she couldreally care about going to school,

(58:29):
but they're getting to schoolbecause she wants to play with her
friends.
That's the goal, whatmotivates you?
And as a coach, what I love isbeing able to focus on their strengths
as opposed to their deficits.
Right.
Because I think it's so super important.
I am.
I'm the type of person that,you know, I think differently, but

(58:52):
it also allows me to, like,see things in my kids that nobody
else was picking up on.
Yeah.
You know, it's an ADHD tree.
Like, being able to be supercreative in how we're going to approach
exposures or, you know,creating the exposures.
I'll never forget one of myfavorite ones ever.
I had a kid call Barnes andNoble and ask for them to deliver

(59:12):
a pizza.
It was the best thing everbecause this kid was so terrified
of it.
And the person on the otherline was like, you know, we don't
do pizza.
But what.
I hope you find it, becausethat sounds delicious.
Oh, that is so sweet.
Wait, was this on purpose or like.
Yeah, it was on purpose.

(59:33):
So, I mean, exposures.
That's what it is.
Sometimes we have them.
Do we.
We help face.
You know, with anxiety, thegoal is never to get rid of it.
Like, anxiety is there.
It serves a natural functionof keeping you safe.
Yeah.
So anxiety is the thing thatkeeps you from walking out in traffic.
Yeah.
But it kind of just goes intohigh gear sometimes.
And so what we're teaching ourkids is anxiety doesn't always go

(59:54):
away.
It's just we learn that ourbrain kind of, like, is trying to
keep us safe.
That it's kind of a liar.
Yeah.
And we need to work on doingthe thing anyway, so we start really
low.
So, like, with your fear ofthe telephone.
Yeah.
It probably would have beenlike, hey, I'm going to have you
answer my emails.
That would have been amazing.
And then they had emails.
When that's feeling morecomfortable, I'm going to have you

(01:00:17):
come in and answer two phone calls.
Yeah.
Or, you know, like, we would have.
I would have loved that.
I would have been like.
But I love it.
And I love being able to,like, bring the parents in because
I remember what it was like tobe that parent that was just like,
I have no idea what I'm doing.
Like, my kid is different.

(01:00:38):
Nobody's telling me how to.
How to work.
How to fix him.
But I hate that word becausewe don't fix kids.
Right.
But, like, how to work with them.
Yeah.
I don't know what I'm doingwith him.
And, you know, can I just really.
Quickly go back to the Barnesand Noble things?
Sorry.
Because I don't understand it.
Can we talk about pizza from abook story?

(01:01:00):
So you're trying to give,like, a wacky thing that would have
no ill consequences is what it was.
Exactly.
So social anxiety is a lot oftimes, like, the fear.
Well, anxiety in general isthe fear of an unknown.
Of an unknown future.
Like, we don't know how it'sgoing to go.
So, you know, we think aboutthese things.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Idon't know if I would love doing
that one either.

(01:01:20):
Sure.
But, like, we don't thinkabout things like, you know, we think,
oh, they're gonna.
What, they're gonna hate me.
Yeah.
Like, they're gonna yell at me.
And so what exposure therapydoes is it teaches you that typically
your worst case scenario isnot gonna happen.
And occasionally it will, andit's okay because you'll be able

(01:01:41):
to do okay with.
You'll be fine.
Okay.
So it just kind of.
It's like that's.
Yeah.
It's reducing the stimuli or what?
Okay.
So.
But yeah, no, that is so interesting.
I love it.
Yeah.
This.
This is.
I think this will be reallyhelpful for a lot of people because
as parents, we're always like,oh, are we doing something right

(01:02:02):
or doing something wrong?
And.
And there's not really aperfect answer.
And what you're sharing isthat there doesn't have to be a perfect
answer.
The answer is figuring it out,like, what works best for the kids
and respecting that.
Yeah.
And, you know, I think, youknow, if you want to go back to,
like, fail forwards.
Another big fail forwardforward for me has been recognizing

(01:02:28):
I have a lot of childhoodtrauma specifically around parenting.
And so for me, I've spentyears trying to overcompensate.
Yeah.
It's so important to me tomake sure, like, they get to adulthood
with, like, minimal need oftherapy because of me.
Yeah.
That's kind of.
My theory is that, like, inthat case, like, we're still gonna

(01:02:50):
mess up our kids because thenwe're overcompensating.
And so it's like, it doesn't.
In parenting, it doesn'tmatter what you do, it's going to
be wrong.
And so it's just like choosinghow do we want to mess up our kids.
Yeah.
And I like that you said aminimal amount because, like, it's
gonna happen.
It's gonna.
Absolutely.
I'm gonna pay for it.
Yeah.
My joke with them is that mygoal is to make sure that they only

(01:03:14):
need six months of therapybecause of me, and I'll pay for It.
It.
Oh, my college tuition instead.
That's so sweet.
Therapy can wait.
But, yeah, like, you know, that's.
That's been a huge thing forme is, like, recognizing, like, there
is no perfect parent.
I'm gonna mess up.
And actually, I think one ofthe biggest things I can give them

(01:03:35):
is to teach them how to messup and also how to repair.
Yes.
Because I'll.
You know, I. I lost my tempera few months ago with my son, and
he.
He likes to push buttons.
He's an adhd.
ADHD is dopamine.
Seek when they're bored, evenif it's bad.
You know, like, that's whatthey do.
And so I was working on something.
I was exhausted.

(01:03:55):
Like, it'd been a long week.
And he was down there pushing buttons.
And I remember yelling at him.
And I meant to say, this iswhy you're struggling with your friend
group right now.
What I said was, this is whyyou have no friends.
I said, I didn't mean to.
And so he went upstairs crying.
My husband literally looked atme, and he was like, well, that rough.

(01:04:16):
And I was like, I know, I know.
Give me a few minutes.
I'll go up there and we'llmake it right.
But, like, I took a deep breath.
I needed that moment.
And, you know, I want my kidsto learn.
What we did not learn in the90s was that it's okay not to be
perfect.
Like, you can make mistakes,and it's actually more the mistake
isn't the problem.
It's more about repair.

(01:04:37):
Yes.
You know, there are those bigmistakes, but for the most part,
most people are going toforgive you for having a moment.
Yeah.
And just.
Just out of curiosity, is heon any medications for any of the
struggles, or is it reallyjust being coped very well with how
you are parenting and managing?
So he has not been onmedication since we tried it right

(01:04:58):
after he got diagnosed.
It just was not a great fitfor him at the time.
Something about that angermanagement piece, it was making it
worse.
So we took him off.
So he's basically been managedwith, like, cognitive behavioral
therapy, all the books that Ican get my hands on, you know, trying

(01:05:19):
to keep as much structure withhim as possible while still allowing
free time.
Diet's been a big thing forhim, and we are just now, I think
it's the combination of all ofit with hitting puberty and getting
those hormones.
So we actually do have anappointment next month to maybe explore
some options now that he's alittle older.

(01:05:40):
But we'll see.
Like, you know, I'm notagainst medication at all.
I just think that I takemedication myself, so.
But I think it's like, youknow, what we explained to our parents
at work is like, medication is.
Mental health is like goinguphill, going up a river without
a paddle, it's hard.
Can you do it?
Maybe.
Will you get really tired?
Is it, you know, really exhausting?

(01:06:01):
Yeah, but the medication isthe paddle.
You still have to do all the work.
It just makes it a littleeasier to do the work.
I love that we.
Actually, that's what we weretalking about with Melissa Walker.
Really?
Yeah.
She might like that analogy.
Yeah.
No, that's a great one.
Yeah.
I know that we need to startwrapping up.
I gotta, you know, forgot totake my mom to the doctor, so.

(01:06:23):
But I do.
I feel like it would be reallycool to really hear something, like,
really good or not reallygood, like something from Kaya, like,
your perspective.
Like what.
Like, what do you think is thebiggest thing you're learning from
this?
And, like, what are you goingto take with this as an adult?
I think it depends on theperson because a lot of people take

(01:06:44):
a lot of different things from things.
Sure.
And I think it's given me theopportunity to, like, figure myself
out and not force myself intothe tiny little box that everyone
expects.
Does make it hard to makefriends sometimes.
But I think that's betterbecause if they can't handle my personality,

(01:07:06):
then we aren't going to be friends.
We talk a lot about quantityfriends versus quality friends.
Yeah, read.
I. I prefer quality.
I have, like three goodfriends and they know who they are.
I love that you're alreadywhere you aren't afraid to be who
you are, and you have beenable to explore that.
I joke that I want to be herwhen I grow up, but it.

(01:07:30):
Also gives me the opportunity.
Opportunity to look at thingsoutside of where I am.
Because I've been so involvedwith the outside world.
Because technology is anamazing thing when it's used in.
In small doses.
But I wanted to understand thelyrics to a Finnish song the other

(01:07:52):
day, and now I'm looking atFinnish colleges because I like their
culture and like their government.
What does that mean?
Finland.
Finland.
Oh, she's creating an escapeplan to move to Finland.
I am.
I don't like America.
I might go with you.
Yes, please do.

(01:08:12):
Yeah.
And I also think it allows meto explore interests and figure out
what I want to do with my lifewithin reason.
Instead of being like, oh, Iknow nothing about this topic, but
I'm Gonna do it.
And then I'm gonna swap mymajor two years in twice.

(01:08:35):
Hush.
She's looking at her mother.
I also feel like it gives morereal life experience as opposed to.
Oh, well, you're gonna.
School is basically going tobe your entire life.
This is your entire life.
You're gonna be stuck in aroom with people who are older and
more experienced than you yourentire life, and you're not gonna

(01:08:58):
know how to function in real society.
Whoa.
You just blew my mind.
Right?
I literally just had the idea.
You just gave me the idea thatit's like you're in school.
You don't even have a time tofigure out who you are.
Like, you have an identity.
You don't get time toexperiment with yourself.
And you also don't get time tounderstand different people, work

(01:09:19):
different ways, and you don'tlearn how to understand that.
Yeah, my brother, he's waymore emotional.
I'm not.
I'm not an emotional person.
And so I have to figure outways to understand him while still
understanding myself at theexact same time.
That's beautiful.
Kaya, do you think you are theway you are because of the opportunity

(01:09:40):
your mom is giving you?
Because, like, you're justvery small.
You're very emotionally andmentally wise, sir, than I would
say most 14 year olds.
I think it definitely helped.
But I will say I think mypersonality is the way.
My personality is the way itis because I was not forced.

(01:10:01):
She's like, I'm just fucking awesome.
Yeah, I am.
I am awesome.
And then she can find out thatshe was awesome.
Yeah.
Because I have good friendswho support me through everything
and I.
That's awesome that you guyswill actually listen to this and
I'm not sending it to you for nothing.
Oh, I love this.

(01:10:22):
I'm so glad we had thisconversation because, like, I'm definitely
like.
I think last year is the firsttime that I heard about unschooling.
And I am.
I.
You know, things have to makesense to me and there has to be,
like, a logical explanation.
And to me I'm like, if I letmy kids decide what they're going
to do, like, they're gonna sitand play video games all day.

(01:10:42):
So I just, you know, it's kindof odd to me, but everything that
you're saying makes so much sense.
And just seeing how it's, youknow, what it's done for Kaia and
your son seems to be thriving,like, it is mind blowing.
Just so you know, though,like, if you put your kids in a Traditional
setting and then you pull them out.
It does actually look likethat in the beginning.

(01:11:04):
Like, that was something wewent through.
And I'm like sitting herelike, oh, my gosh.
My kids are literally, like,playing video games all day.
They're doing like, that looks academic.
I definitely panicked a fewtimes and would be like, we're going
to do a curriculum.
And then it would always fail.
And it was terrible.
I mean, my husband, my integer.
So, you know, they talk about.
It's called deschooling, butit's unschooling is a lot.

(01:11:25):
Like, you have to deschoolyourself from, like, what you think
it's supposed to look like.
Because education doesn't justhappen in a classroom.
Education is what happensevery day.
Yeah, right.
Like Kaya just said.
I don't know if you heardthat, but she learned our had an
interest in architecturebecause of Minecraft.
So, like, I missed that.
I did not hear that.
So it's pretty.

(01:11:45):
It's pretty cool like, thatyou can kind of like, you can find
something to learn ineverything that you do.
Yeah.
No, and I'm glad that you saidthat, Sam, because, yeah, I. I could
see for sure being, like,harder for.
The parents than the kids.
Like, we really have to, like,undo everything we think it looks
like, and we have to trust,and that's so hard.

(01:12:06):
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
I love.
Wow.
I love so much.
And it's gonna come out in theperfect time as, like, we're getting
ready to get ready for school.
And I, and I personally knowparents that they don't know what
they're doing for their kidsbecause nothing has worked for them.

(01:12:26):
You don't really have to know.
I think a lot of parents endup that we.
There's kind of a joke in thehomeschooling community and especially
in the unschooling community.
Like, we all start out as,like, that traditional school at
home model.
And then we get so tired of itthat we end up, like, falling into
that unschooling mode.
And then we realize that itworks and we're like, okay, well,
you know, we're going to kindof let this run.

(01:12:47):
Just go with it.
Yes.
Or Unless you're Mormon.
Unless you're Mormon.
I grew and so, yeah, you'reprobably right.
I've done so much research.
Good job.
Oh, my God, y' all are so much.
Promise.
You.
You are, like, really lookinginto things and thinking, like, why
yes or why no.
I don't judge things based offof the.

(01:13:09):
The first thing people tell me.
I base my Own opinions off ofwhat I can learn and.
No, that's amazing.
That's beautiful.
Academic kid logic, logical kid.
And then our younger one, he'sthe one that's like, he's going to
be an engineer, like it'sgoing to invent something.
And I joke like, she's our 40year old in a 14 year old's body

(01:13:30):
and he's a.
He's a rich kid that was bornto a middle class.
That's hilarious.
We joke about that with my friend.
One of my friends is like that.
He's like, I'm technicallysupposed to be an aristocrat.
Yeah, yeah.
Like this kid, for hisbirthday, when he turned 11, he wanted
a pedicure and a massage.
I love it.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(01:13:50):
So I've decided I want to beKaya when I grow up, so.
I agree.
Same.
Well, you guys, I just.
Yeah, I'm.
I'm so glad that you came ontothe podcast.
I met Sam randomly one day.
She came into the shop numbertwo, couldn't stop talking that day.
And so I'm so glad that youagreed to come and do this.
No, thank you for inviting me.

(01:14:11):
This was a lot of fun.
Yeah, it was so much fun and Ifeel like we could talk about so
much more.
We could.
Absolutely we could.
Yeah.
Well, thank you guys so muchfor joining us.
And yeah, I think that we havemore to talk about, so I think that
we will be seeing more of Samand maybe Kaya.
Okay.
We'd love to come back.

(01:14:31):
Tayton, when he turns 13.
Okay.
She has decided he has to be 13.
That's because he needs to understand.
He needs to understand thateverything on the Internet is forever
and there is no taking that.
That is very true.
It actually might be kind ofinteresting to talk to him now in
like perspective of like wherehe is at right now and then meet

(01:14:53):
him where he is when he's 13, 14.
That's true.
That would be interesting.
She's like, I don't think you want.
To talk to him right now.
Your face.
He's too emotional.
Well, thank you guys so muchfor educating us on a whole new way
to think and to educateourselves and.
Listening and being openminded, like, that's.

(01:15:14):
That's always what gets me excited.
Yeah, us too.
Absolutely.
Yeah, exactly.
That's what we try to be,isn't it?
Yeah, just kind of.
No, there's not only one wayto do things.
There's not.
Well, you heard unschooling,deschooling and all the things here
from Sam sold.
Right?
So skirts out.

(01:15:40):
Did you like the episode thatyou heard today?
Great.
Share it with a friend.
And don't forget to rate and review.
Sam.