December 8, 2025 • 36 mins
Brothers and business partners Michael and Harmon Skurnik discuss how their experiences with fine wines and spirits led them to establish Skurnik Wines & Spirits, what they value in the products they choose to represent, and how their guiding principles help them navigate uncertain times.
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Harmon Skurnik (00:05):
Hey! This is Harmon Skurnik,
and for our first episodeof Skurnik Unfiltered,
I sat down with my brother,business partner,
and founder of Skurnik Wines,Michael Skurnik.
We discuss the foundingof the company
nearly 40 years ago,how and when we joined forces,
how we pick the winesand spirits that are right
for our portfolio, and how ourguiding principles
(00:28):
help us navigateuncertain times.
So, graba glass of wine and enjoy.
Michael Skurnik (00:39):
Cheers, Harmon.
Harmon Skurnik (00:39):
Cheers, Michael.
Michael S (00:39):
I am Michael Skurnik, and I'm here
with my brother Harmon.
We're in our 38th yearin business as Skurnik Wines,
formerly knownas Michael Skurnik Wines.
We both have the same parents,oddly enough, and so
we got interested in winebecause our parents
got interested in wine.
On Long Island,in the town of Merrick,
(00:59):
on the South shore,nobody was drinking
wine in 1965, ‘66,‘67, at that time in
the United States.
It was nota wine-drinking country.
People didn't eatfine French food. It
was sort of acultural barren wasteland
when it came to taste.
(01:22):
I'm talking about beveragesand foods and things like that.
But then mom and dadwent to France in 1970,
and got completely hooked.
We were ahead of the curvewith mom and dad
putting a bottle of wineon the table almost every night.
Fine wines, dry wines.
That was atypical for the time.
Michael Skurnik (01:41):
Years later, I went to work at
Windows On The World,which is how it all started,
which was the restaurantat the top of the Twin Towers,
World Trade Center number one,may it rest in peace.
That's when I was going to bea musician.
I moved to New York,I played guitar,
went to a party,and I found out that—
I thought you were going to bea zoologist?
Well, that was college.
(02:01):
That's another storyfor another podcast.
But anyway,I went to a party in downtown
Manhattan in 1976, and metsome people who were musicians.
I said, well, how do you guysmake a living?
Oh, well,we work in restaurants.
That sounds like apretty good idea. So I
lived in Tribeca, I lookedup and I saw the top
of the Twin Towers, and Iheard that there was
(02:23):
a restaurant up there.
So I decided the next dayto go up there
and apply for a job as a waiter.
And I somehow got the jobwithout any experience.
My memory's a little bitdifferent there, because I
remember we went up therewith Mom and Dad
for a drink or somethingwhen you lived in Tribeca,
and I recall saying to you,the waiters here look like
(02:47):
they make pretty good moneyat this restaurant.
You were looking,you didn't have a job.
And I said, why don'tyou become a waiter here?
I thought I gave you that idea.
Well, when you get to be closeto the 40th year in business,
these kind of thingsare going to happen.
We have different memories.
But I'm going to go with,you might be right.
Well, I've said that to many,many people over the years.
So, even if it wasn'ttrue, it's true in my mind.
(03:10):
All this timeMichael was getting exposed
to the wine industryand working up at Windows,
I graduated college,and I had a business degree.
First.
I worked for my fatherfor a short time after school.
Really didn't like that.
My father was a great salesman,which is why you're
a great salesman.
I think you inheritedthose genes.
What I ended up doingwas taking a break from that.
(03:33):
I worked for himfor about a year,
and I took a breakand went to Europe
for six weeks by myselfwith a backpack,
and learned a lot about myselfby visiting all these countries
in Europe.
Opened my eyes and my world tonumerous things,
including wine and food.
Although I was on a really,really strict
budget at the time,Europe on five dollars a day.
(03:55):
When I came back from thatincredible experience,
I went to work for a companythat did market research here
in New York, lived in Tribeca,the same place
where Michael lived.
I subletted an apartmentin the next building over.
He was working at Windowsand I needed a job,
and I said, well,can I work up there, too?
Well, they don't let familymembers work there.
(04:17):
Well, what if I or maybe—
His middle name is Wayne.
It's notrelated to Bruce Wayne,
but it could be.
He suggestedI go by my middle name.
We didn't say we were brothers,and I ended up bussing tables
and doing and serving cocktailsand working at the hors
d’ourvery, which was the bar,for the summer.
So I got thatexperience as well.
(04:38):
Working for Kevin Zraly upat Windows
really set the stage for youas founder for this company,
which happened, what,maybe five years later?
How did you found it?
It was not lost.
Ha! I worked at the restaurantfrom the fall of 1976.
After that,I went to work for a small
wholesale company,kind of like Skurnik Wines,
(05:00):
but nothing like Skurnik Wines.
But it had the opportunityto become a company
like Skurnik Wines.
It was called EstablishmentImport Company, owned by a guy
named Larry Rapoport.
And then after that,I convinced him
because I had learned,during my stint
with Kevin at Windows,that American wine
was actually a thing!Nobody took American
wine seriously, and there wasan up-and-coming group
(05:21):
of wineries, brand new wineriesat the time that just started
making wine.
Wineries with the names ofChateau Montelena, Stag's
Leap Wine Cellars,Stonegate, Raymond, Chateau
Saint Jean.
These all becamefamous and eventually sold and
became much larger wineries.
But they were brandnew wineries at the time, right?
(05:42):
Right, so I convinced Larry Rapoport
we should go out to Californiaand find a bunch of wineries,
which is what we did.
And I came back,and so I was the only sales
rep for all of these wineriesin metro New York.
And I had every account.
I had every account,I had Sherry-Lehman,
I had Abramsky,of course, from Crossroads
[Wine and Liquor].
I had Windows On The World.
(06:02):
Do we still use the samenumerical account numbers?
I think so.
Anyway, account001 was Windows On The World.
And then 002, 003, 004, and 005were all Smith and Wollensky
Group restaurants.
Because what happened was I wasalso a founder—not
just of SkurnikWines—I was a founder
(06:23):
of The Winettes.
The famous—infamous—unknownrock and roll cover band
that includedKevin Zraly, myself
on guitar, Josh Wesson,Richard Wagner, Joey
DeLissio, Brian Miller,who was the restaurant
critic of The New York Timesat the time.
We went out to Californiawith Ray Wellington,
who was running the wine programfor Smith Wollensky, and
(06:47):
Ray and I hopped a ridein the car together
down to Montereyfor the Monterey Wine Festival.
And he then informed methat he was putting together
this special,exclusive California
program for the PostHouse, California Cache.
It was calledthe California Cache.
So we we went, I said, look,Ray—I had a wholesale license
(07:09):
at the timebecause I was working for this
French company—andI said, why don't
I bring in the wines for you?
Let'sgo find these wines together,
and then I'll bring them in.
I'll do the logistics and I'llsell them to the restaurants.
And he said,yeah, that's a great idea.
So we tasted together,and we discovered
William Selyem,we discovered Talbott.
(07:29):
Anyway, there were sixCalifornia wineries,
and that was the beginningof this company.
Wasn't Bonny Doon one of them?
Yes.
Bonny Doon was one of them.
So that's how it started.
We had six California wineries.
“We,” meaning me.
I was the only one.
And you brought inlike five cases of each
or something?
We brought in the amountfor the California Cache program
and that was it.
(07:50):
And then Icontacted the wineries
and I said, I'd like tohave your blessing to be able
to go out and offerthese wines to other people.
And they said yes.
And that's that'show that started.
So we started as an Americanwine only wholesale company
in New York.
We had no sales reps.
That's when we hired Tom Lynch,who was our first salesperson,
(08:12):
and Dan Lerner was our secondsalesperson.
Harmon Skurnik (08:14):
Well, you didn't hire Tom
before you hired me.
Fast forward to 1989,which is when the business
was starting to take off.
I did a lot ofadministrative work
for you on the side.
Because the companyyou worked for
had the Apple account,and Apple was a new, young
computer company,and at the time
(08:34):
Harmon worked forit was Needham Harper
Worldwide, or BBDO.
One of those companies.
BBDO had the Apple account
and made that famous 1984Macintosh commercial.
And it was the it was theadvertising agency
in the world, really.
Phil Dusenberrywas the creative guy
who created that commercialand they were world famous.
They gave every employeeof the advertising company
(08:58):
an original Apple Macintosh,you know
the one that looked likeit would make a great
fish aquarium? Yeah.
So Harmonwas way ahead of the curve
because he learnedhow to operate that thing.
I'm probably saying too muchor maybe it's inaccurate,
but I don't think you hadenough work to
fill your fill your eight-or nine-hour day.
And you werelearning the computer.
(09:20):
And so when I neededsome price lists or some
point of sale material,I would I'd be running around
selling and I'd go up tothe 44th floor or something,
and he'd print outa hundred copies of price lists
and I'd go back out.
We also had the Xerox account.
Free Xerox, free Macs.
We had top of the lineXerox machines,
(09:40):
and I'd run his price listthrough there.
Double-sided and stapled!This was, like, mind-bending.
After I created them on thefirst word processor,
and we had the veryfirst laser printer.
But anyway,so I was working for you
part time with no pay.
You gave me a bottle of wineevery now and then, probably.
But, at one pointwhen Kermit Lynch
(10:04):
said yes to you to give youa line of imported wines,
you told me to come to lunchwith you at Keen's, where
we had a really nice steak,and you had opened a bottle,
or we ordereda bottle off the list
that you sold themof the William Selyem
Leno MartinelliZinfandel 1985 or 1986?
(10:24):
‘86.
Harmon Skurni (10:25):
With the company, we never really had
a business planor anything like that,
that we were going to growto a certain amount,
a certain point,a certain it—was
just very organic,the whole thing.
We started with these sixCalifornia wineries
and the Frenchportfolio of Kermit Lynch,
which gave us instantcredibility in the marketplace
(10:46):
with wineries like Raveneauand Coche-Dury
and Chevillon, Jayer.
The one caseyou got allocated a container
every year.
Michael Skurnik (10:55):
Oh, we got a whole container of Jayer
every year.
I don't know whatanybody tells you.
Harmon Skurnik (10:57):
Ha! Yeah, right.
And so the businessgrew organically from there,
and we hired our first salesman.
Michael, you said earlier,being the founder and all,
that the companyfor many years was called
Michael Skurnik Wines,and then we decided
probably, what,eleven or twelve years ago
to change the nameto Skurnik Wines & Spirits.
(11:20):
One reason was thatwe got into the spirits
business, right?
Well, just a short offshoot,anecdote about that.
The reason we changedthe name of the company
was becausewe designed a new logo,
the one you see aboutabout the office and on the back
(11:41):
labels of our winesand spirits.
That was rightabout the time that we moved
into this New York Cityheadquarters office
that we now occupy.
We came up with thisbeautiful design,
which looks like atop of a champagne cork.
And the designer had“Michael Skurnik
Wines & Spirits,” andwe all looked at thisand
said, it’s too many words.
(12:01):
Something has to go.
And it was eitherwe lost “Spirits” and kept
“Michael Skurnik Wines,”which is what
the name of the company was,or we lost “Michael.”
It had to be one or the other.
And I said, it's clearwe lose “Michael” because we
are invested in spirits.
We want that.
That is who we are.
(12:22):
And that's more importantthan my name
continuing to be on the nameon the logo.
Also, we said at the time that
most people referredto the company
as “Skurnik Wines”at that point already.
So, what was the origin ofhow we got into spirits?
Do you want to want to touchon that?
Michael Skurnik (12:39):
Yeah. Well, my wife and I had a restaurant
in the Caribbean, in theVirgin Islands,
called The Fatty Crab.
The Fatty Crab wasa couple of restaurants
in New Yorkowned by Zak Pelaccio.
And Adam Schuman, our beloveddirector of our
spirits portfolio,originally was a cook,
(13:00):
and he became thethe guy who did the
cocktail program for Fatty Crab.
And when we openedup in Saint John, Adam did
all the cocktailsin the program,
and I got to meet him.
And the restaurant,sadly, is no longer,
but we got Adam out of the deal.
We decided to work togetherand start in earnest
our real spirits portfolio.
(13:22):
We already had CharlesNeal's wonderful
brandies and Cognacs, Armagnacand Calvados elixirs,
and we had thegreat distillates from Hans
Reisetbauer in Austria,and we started out that way.
Harmon Skurnik (13:33):
At the time, isn't it true that the
craft spirits boomwas just underway?
Because prior to that spiritswere your standard
brands, your brand names.
But there weren't theseexciting new craft
(13:55):
distillers out there.
Also, the cocktail bar movementwas just starting.
Death and Co.
had just openedup, Mayahuel was a legendary
mezcal bar on East 6th Street.
And it just became exciting.
Then Pouring Ribbons opened,where I think Adam worked,
(14:15):
Amanda Elder worked there,and we have quite a few people
who worked there.
And so all this was happeningat the same time.
Adam came on board,and our very
first two spirits companiesthat we took on following
that were Greenhook Gin,Steven D'Angelo's
great company in Greenpoint,Brooklyn, and El Dorado
(14:36):
Rum from Guyana.
And that was the beginning.
Those were two very importantbrands—still
are—in our portfolio.
And it happened from there.
It kind of grew.
Do you rememberback before then, though,
even 20 or 30 years ago,people in the wine
trade would say you were eitherin the wine trade or you were in
(14:59):
the spirits trade.
There weren't many companiesthat did both.
And there was kindof a competition, like wine
peoplewould look down on spirits,
and they would say thingslike, well, you're in
competition with each other.
If you go to a restaurantand you order a cocktail,
well, you're not ordering wine.
(15:22):
And at this point in time,in our evolution, we realized
that there was a synergybetween the two.
And at the same time,restaurants were getting serious
about their cocktail programs.
And there's no reason whysomebody who comes
into a restaurant,can't have a cocktail and order
a bottle of winewith their dinner.
Michael Sku (15:40):
Like the two of us!
Harmon Skurnik (15:41):
It works! They work in tandem
and they actuallyhelp each other out.
And it's been just a tremendousaddition to this company
to have what many peopleconsider to be the finest craft
spirits portfolioin the business.
I have a good friend who isa winemaker, and I was
(16:04):
at his home for dinner.
This is a couple of years ago,and there was
someone at the dinnerwho was a critic and said,
hey, Michael, how's the spiritsbusiness going?
I said, oh, it'sgoing phenomenally.
It's the fastestgrowing part of our company.
She says, that's interestingbecause I've spoken
to a number of otherlocal New York wholesalers,
(16:25):
and they're not doing so well.
In fact, some of them areeven considering getting out
of the spirits business.
I said,well, that's pretty curious.
So I scratched my heada couple times, said, i think it might be this
. We love spirits.
We have a passion for spirits.
We go homeand we mix cocktails.
We love the flavors.
(16:46):
We love to experiment.
You can't just decideto get into the spirits business
because you see otherpeople are doing it.
Unless you have skin inthe game or you really care,
this is a business of passion.
So we continue to do well,and I don't know how
the other people are doing.
Well, we often say that
(17:06):
we have curated the spiritsportfolio with a wine palate.
We do approach our selectionof what goes
into the spirits portfoliothe same way we have
done for many,many years with wine.
And, um, I don't know thata lot of spirits companies
operate that waybecause they don't
(17:28):
have the experience, so I thinkit has given us an advantage.
Michael Skurn (17:30):
I think our other big advantage is the team
that we havein our spirits portfolio,
from Adam Schumanall the way down.
This is a collectionof superstars, people
that have high, highlevels of integrity
and can communicatethe enthusiasm and
the excitementand the knowledge of
not only the productsthat we represent,
(17:52):
but cocktailingand the mixology part of it
with passion.
Harmon Skurnik (17:55):
Yeah, that extends to our
entire sales staffand our entire staff at large.
Portfolio managementteam is amazing.
As I said before,it's about the portfolio
and it's about the people.
You have to do both well.
And I'm really proud of it,really.
(18:16):
I think it just comes down to,you know, the fact that we
have passion for what we do.
We have passionfor wine and spirits, and love
selling those thingsand turning people on to
new experiences.
Wine is not just a product.
Spirits are not just a product.
(18:37):
They are the productof the people behind them.
And the more you learnabout the people behind them,
the more you can appreciatetasting their great wines.
I think the USDA actually hasa definition
when they're talkingabout cheese—there's “cheese”
and then there's“cheese food.” Cheese
food is likean individually wrapped
piece of Kraft American cheese.
(18:58):
It's not really cheese.
The government wouldn'tallow them to say cheese.
So they came up witha new term, cheese food.
But most people who buy thatthink it's cheese.
But I raise thatbecause I think we should have
something similar with wine,because there's wine,
and there's fine wine, which iswho we represent
(19:18):
and what we drink.
It comes from under 5%of the total production of wine
on the planet.
And there'sindustrially-made wine,
which I'm not lookingdown my nose at it,
I'm just saying it'sa different category.
The person that buys a bottleof Skurnik wine or Skurnik
(19:39):
spirit is lookingfor a different experience.
They're looking to connect.
They're lookingfor the personality
of the wine, authenticity.
When you pop a bottle ofBeaujolais, if you've ever
been there, you're immediatelytransported back.
And that's thepart of the wine world
(20:00):
that we're involved inalong with many other companies.
We're not the only ones.
As Michael said earlier on,we were not a wine drinking
nation in the 1970s,in the 1980s.
We are much more sonow, but we're still not!
We have a long way to go.
Fine wine, at least, is hereto stay, and more
(20:23):
and more people willbe discovering it as time goes
on, as young people mature.
Wine has been aroundfor six thousand years.
It's not going anywhere.
It may not grow ten, fifteen,twenty percent per year,
like it has in some years.
It may flatten outfor a couple of years,
which is where we are now,and there may be
(20:46):
some casualties alongthe way, like wineries
that are not well-financedwill go out of business.
Distributors and importersthat are not well-financed
may go out of business.
Also, the trendsthat we read about
and that people write aboutand that people
want to talk about are real,but let’s not get overexcited
(21:08):
about anything that suggeststhat we're going to be
in trouble as an industry.
They mostly affect brands thathave 100% distribution
in the marketplace.
Whether it's Josh Cellars,for example, or Kendall Jackson,
you know, well-knownbrands, Gallo.
As soon as demandhas a slight pullback,
(21:29):
they feel it first.
But everything that we do hereat Skurnik Wines
& Spirits—we're so far underthat radar.
In this country, I don't knowwhat the per capita
consumption is today,but it's something like 4%
of the population drinks85% or 90% of the fine wine.
So we haven't even begunto scratch the surface with who
(21:51):
the potentialconsumers are going to be.
But we do know thatthis whole idea of people
learning abouthow to eat right—and
I don't mean healthy.
There's that too.
But how to eat well,what's the difference
between a great butterfrom Brittany and Parkay.
(22:14):
That's the trend, and it's arevolution, really.
I remember back there was agreat little store
called the Silver Palate.
It was a food provisionstore on the Upper West Side.
Two women started it,Sheila Lukins and Julee Rosso,
and they published a book,maybe you've seen
The Silver Palate Cookbook,and it became a standard,
(22:35):
a staple for most cooks.
And the book,I still have my copy of it.
A lot of the pagesare falling out, but every
ten or twelve or fifteen pagesthere would be a box
with info inside.
And it has shallots—there’sa page on shallots
explaining to Americawhat a goddamn shallot is.
(22:55):
So here we are.
That's forty years ago.
That's around the timethat we started this company.
So when I started selling wineand I went to restaurants,
they had one white by the glass,one red by the glass.
Not varietal,not vintage dated.
Sometimes they called itBurgundy if it was red,
sometimes they called itChablis if it was white.
(23:16):
Almaden would do that.
So there was no such thingas wine by the glass.
So the transformation has beentremendous, and we're not
going backwards.
The best thingabout this business,
really, is the fact that westill learn almost every day.
Kermit Lynch, as Harmonmentioned, was our first foray
(23:37):
into imported wines.
A few years later,we had the opportunity
to begin working with MarcDe Grazia selections.
We met Iano, Iano DeGrazia and Marco are brothers.
They ran a companyout of Florence.
It still exists.
We still work with them,and we learned
about Italian winethrough this experience
with the De Grazias.
(23:58):
Of course we hadhad Italian wine before.
We had had French wine before,but we learned
through our associationwith Kermit Lynch
going to Burgundy,visiting not just
Raveneau, Coche-Dury, Jayerbut we had Verset and Cornas.
So we had Clape in Cornas,we had Michel Rostang
and Côte Rôtie,so we got to meet the legends
(24:19):
when we were youngand they were not yet old.
And we learned how to do it.
We learnedhow to go into the cellar
and taste out of the barreland evaluate
what makes a good wine.
And the wineshould reflect the place
from which it comes.
And by going to Sancerreand tasting twelve or thirteen
(24:41):
different producersover the course of the years
and understandingwhat are the ideals
that you're looking for?
What makes a great Sancerre?
You can then,if you have a palate memory,
you can then compare what you'retasting today
to what that ideal is.
It's not perfection.
It's the quintessential,I would say.
(25:04):
The French use the wordtypicity, you know, typical,
which in English it doesn'treally translate that
well because like, typicalsounds like it's just average,
but that's whatthey mean by typicity or typical
is that—you mentionedVerset, Cornas—nothing
tastes like that.
These are uniqueexpressions of wine.
You don't have to makethe wine that way.
(25:25):
Like, you can come into Cornasand bring a bunch of
new new oak barrelsand make it taste
like a Cabernetif you wanted to.
But it would be atrocious.
The reason isbecause it wouldn't
taste like Cornas. Right?
I think that there isa standard
that you learn to respectwhen you taste wines
(25:48):
over the course of many years,and you travel,
and you understandwhat the wines
are supposed to taste like,and then the subjective part is
which qualities turn you on?
And I thinkthat this portfolio reflects
a lot of our personal tastes.
There are some winesthat are considered great wines
(26:09):
that we wouldn't take on,because they just
don't speak to us.
They're not our style.
And for whatever reason,our palates and our style
has resonatedin the marketplace,
thankfully, you know, and that'sone of the secrets,
I think, to our success,is that that
pursuit of that stylehas been consistent
(26:30):
over the years.
When peopleturn around the bottle
and they see Skurnikon the back label, not only do
they think thatthe wine will have
a certain quality to it,but also that it’ll
have a certain style to itthat is consistent.
I wouldn't disagreewith anything you said.
That's beautifullystated, actually.
But the word “style” is atough word because
(26:50):
it means different thingsto different people.
So, we like Cavallotto’sCru Barolo.
But we also like equally wellthe Anfosso Rossese,
which is a light red winethat you serve slightly chilled.
So, we like winesthat are super well made.
(27:13):
They reflectwhere they come from.
They have less hard edgesthan some others.
We don't like dirt in the wine.
We don't like funk.
Sometimes a littlefunk is good,
but we don't want anythingin the wine that covers up
the terroir.
And we are mostly representingsmall craft producers.
(27:37):
They are familybusinesses as well,
and there's a kinshipand kind of a simpatico
between usand our winery partners
because, in many cases,they're multi-generational
family businessesthat have passed down five, six,
seven, sometimes eleven,twelve generations.
(27:59):
And so those similarities inour business style
and our family business approachreally resonate with our
with our wineries.
They love to work with usbecause we're,
we're sort of like them
All through the yearswhen we would visit
cellars around the world,it was either two brothers or
(28:22):
a brotherand a sister or two sisters.
It's siblings.
So there was a natural affinitythere.
As opposed to a company who's not like us,
you know,the corporate-run company
that may be backedby private equity.
And they're very impersonal.
It's a completely differenttype of company to work with.
(28:44):
Maybe they pay the bills,maybe they can attract some
good wineries,but you don't have
the same kind of simpaticothat you do with
our producers, I don't think.
They love the factthat we're a family business.
They absolutely love it.
And when we told them last yearthat we have a plan
where our childrenare going to be
(29:06):
taking over eventually,as soon as this coming year,
taking over the day to dayresponsibilities,
they were thrilled for us,and they understood that
that's exactlywhat they go through.
My son and daughterboth work in the business.
Michael's son and two daughtersboth worked in the business.
His son in lawworks in the business.
(29:28):
So I think that being a familybusiness has been a great
strength of ours.
And if we need inspiration,we can talk about
our great friend Pepe Raventósfrom Raventós i Blanc in Spain,
who'sgoing to be one of our first,
if not the first podcast guests.
(29:48):
And he is either the sixteenthor the twenty-first generation
of his family.
Well, you’llhave to listen to the podcast
to find out.
Listen to the podcastto find out
what the correct number is.
But they've been livingin the same place
south of Barcelona,and it's pretty phenomenal,
especially for Americanslike us.
(30:09):
We live in a countrywhere we're all immigrants
and we all camefrom—most of us—have
all come from someplace else.
For better or for worse,we get the strengths of that,
which is whythis country is so great,
the foundation of that.
But to hear somebodygo that far back in
their family historyand talk about it and
(30:30):
get strength from it is really,really incredible.
Well, his family history wasthe origin of Cava in Spain.
And today Pepe andhis company, Raventós i Blanc,
which branched off from that,are producing
the finest sparkling winesin all of Spain.
Michael Skurnik (30:48):
His grandfather was the cellar
master at Codorniu,which is a large, inexpensive,
industrially-made Cava.
But back in those days,his grandfather
went to Champagne to seehow they were doing it,
and they saw that they hadcaves down that were cut out of
chalk in Champagne.
So they came back anddecided to call it Cava.
(31:09):
But, uh,when you visit Raventos,
if you're lucky enoughto go there,
their property is contiguousto the Condoniu property
because his grandfatherused to be part of it.
They arrangedfor us an incredible visit.
They've got like six or sevenor eight levels of cellars.
(31:32):
And I don't want to make itsound too Disneyland,
but there's a littlemotorized vehicle that takes you
all the way down,and it's filled with
millions and millionsof bottles.
So, maybe he'll get to say moreabout that than I can.
Harmon Skurnik (31:49):
This Skurnik Unfiltered podcast
is going to beexciting to follow.
I hope you find itexciting to follow.
We have already recordedsome really cool episodes
with some great winemakers,and you'll get to
learn about them, who they are,and their winemaking philosophy
and what makes them tick.
(32:11):
We've got episodes recordedwith Giorgio Rivetti, who is the
proprietor of La Spinetta,as well as Contratto
sparkling wine in Piedmont.
We've got theaforementioned Pepe
Raventós, the great sparklingwine producer from Spain
who spends a lot of timehere in New York
and loves New York.
(32:32):
And he's got a lotof wonderful things
to talk about.
Who else do we have?
Christina Turleyis going to come by.
She's the daughterof Larry Turley,
who's the founder ofTurley Wine Cellars
in Saint Helena,the great Zinfandel producer.
Quentin Paillardfrom Champagne.
(32:53):
Christopher Loewen,the son of Carl Loewen,
the great producerin the Mosel Valley.
He's a terrific,terrific winemaker
and got a lot of great thingsto talk about.
Hans Reisetbauer,who some people feel
(33:15):
is the greatestdistiller in the world,
will be here.
I guess he's going to be herewith his best friend
Bernhard Ott, who isa great producer of Grüner
Veltliner and Rieslingfrom Austria.
And Jason Kesner, the longtimewinemaker of Kistler
Vineyards in Sonoma,one of the great,
(33:35):
great producers ofChardonnay and Pinot Noir,
going back decades now.
Originally startedby Steve Kistler,
who now moved on to Occidental,which we also represent.
But Jason is a terrific,fabulous winemaker
and also philosopher.
And there's Annabel Thomas,who's the proprietor
(33:56):
of Nc’nean, the great,small producer of Scotch
in Scotland.
Completely organic,one of the rare
woman-owned distilleries.
And she's really a fun personto talk to.
Michael Skurnik (34:12):
Stay tuned.
We'll have a lot more,but that's just a little teaser.
Basically, the idea behindall this is to try to
give you a chanceto meet the personalities
behind the winesand the spirits.
I think that it'll bewell worth your while
to spend a little timewith these people
and hear a little bitabout what goes into
(34:36):
the production, a little bitabout the history, a little bit
about their passions and wherethings are headed.
You know, it's one thingto listen to this podcast,
to learn about the producers.
But it's very easyto just go to skurnik.com
and look upa producer that you liked
or that you're interested in,and there's
just an incredible amount,a plethora of information.
(34:58):
There's way more informationthan you'd ever want to see.
Just go on the website, look upyour favorite producer.
There's YouTube videos, there'stech sheets, of course, and
statistics—morethan you'd ever want.
Have a field day.
So if you're a wine lover,spirits enthusiast,
(35:23):
or you're looking to learnabout the people behind
your favorite wines and spirits,be sure to subscribe to Skurnik
Unfiltered on Apple, Spotify,or wherever podcasts are found.
Michael S (35:34):
Thanks for listening.
Harmon, it's been greatsharing this podcast with you
and all these 38+ years.
Harmon Skurnik (35:41):
Cheers to the next 38.
Michael Skurnik (35:42):
Na zdorovie.
Harmon S (35:50):
Unfiltered is recorded at Skurnik Wines &
Spirits headquartersin the Flatiron District
of New York City, which is whyyou might hear
some city noises as we goalong, like horns honking.
If you found the conversationinteresting, please consider
liking, subscribing,and leaving a review.
You can stay up to dateon our show and upcoming events
by following @skurnikwineson Instagram and visiting our
(36:13):
website at skurnik.com
Hey! This is Harmon Skurnik,
and for our first episodeof Skurnik Unfiltered,
I sat down with my brother,business partner,
and founder of Skurnik Wines,Michael Skurnik.
We discuss the foundingof the company
nearly 40 years ago,how and when we joined forces,
how we pick the winesand spirits that are right
for our portfolio, and how ourguiding principles
(00:28):
help us navigateuncertain times.
So, graba glass of wine and enjoy.
Michael Skurnik (00:39):
Cheers, Harmon.
Harmon Skurnik (00:39):
Cheers, Michael.
Michael S (00:39):
I am Michael Skurnik, and I'm here
with my brother Harmon.
We're in our 38th yearin business as Skurnik Wines,
formerly knownas Michael Skurnik Wines.
We both have the same parents,oddly enough, and so
we got interested in winebecause our parents
got interested in wine.
On Long Island,in the town of Merrick,
(00:59):
on the South shore,nobody was drinking
wine in 1965, ‘66,‘67, at that time in
the United States.
It was nota wine-drinking country.
People didn't eatfine French food. It
was sort of acultural barren wasteland
when it came to taste.
(01:22):
I'm talking about beveragesand foods and things like that.
But then mom and dadwent to France in 1970,
and got completely hooked.
We were ahead of the curvewith mom and dad
putting a bottle of wineon the table almost every night.
Fine wines, dry wines.
That was atypical for the time.
Michael Skurnik (01:41):
Years later, I went to work at
Windows On The World,which is how it all started,
which was the restaurantat the top of the Twin Towers,
World Trade Center number one,may it rest in peace.
That's when I was going to bea musician.
I moved to New York,I played guitar,
went to a party,and I found out that—
I thought you were going to bea zoologist?
Well, that was college.
(02:01):
That's another storyfor another podcast.
But anyway,I went to a party in downtown
Manhattan in 1976, and metsome people who were musicians.
I said, well, how do you guysmake a living?
Oh, well,we work in restaurants.
That sounds like apretty good idea. So I
lived in Tribeca, I lookedup and I saw the top
of the Twin Towers, and Iheard that there was
(02:23):
a restaurant up there.
So I decided the next dayto go up there
and apply for a job as a waiter.
And I somehow got the jobwithout any experience.
My memory's a little bitdifferent there, because I
remember we went up therewith Mom and Dad
for a drink or somethingwhen you lived in Tribeca,
and I recall saying to you,the waiters here look like
(02:47):
they make pretty good moneyat this restaurant.
You were looking,you didn't have a job.
And I said, why don'tyou become a waiter here?
I thought I gave you that idea.
Well, when you get to be closeto the 40th year in business,
these kind of thingsare going to happen.
We have different memories.
But I'm going to go with,you might be right.
Well, I've said that to many,many people over the years.
So, even if it wasn'ttrue, it's true in my mind.
(03:10):
All this timeMichael was getting exposed
to the wine industryand working up at Windows,
I graduated college,and I had a business degree.
First.
I worked for my fatherfor a short time after school.
Really didn't like that.
My father was a great salesman,which is why you're
a great salesman.
I think you inheritedthose genes.
What I ended up doingwas taking a break from that.
(03:33):
I worked for himfor about a year,
and I took a breakand went to Europe
for six weeks by myselfwith a backpack,
and learned a lot about myselfby visiting all these countries
in Europe.
Opened my eyes and my world tonumerous things,
including wine and food.
Although I was on a really,really strict
budget at the time,Europe on five dollars a day.
(03:55):
When I came back from thatincredible experience,
I went to work for a companythat did market research here
in New York, lived in Tribeca,the same place
where Michael lived.
I subletted an apartmentin the next building over.
He was working at Windowsand I needed a job,
and I said, well,can I work up there, too?
Well, they don't let familymembers work there.
(04:17):
Well, what if I or maybe—
His middle name is Wayne.
It's notrelated to Bruce Wayne,
but it could be.
He suggestedI go by my middle name.
We didn't say we were brothers,and I ended up bussing tables
and doing and serving cocktailsand working at the hors
d’ourvery, which was the bar,for the summer.
So I got thatexperience as well.
(04:38):
Working for Kevin Zraly upat Windows
really set the stage for youas founder for this company,
which happened, what,maybe five years later?
How did you found it?
It was not lost.
Ha! I worked at the restaurantfrom the fall of 1976.
After that,I went to work for a small
wholesale company,kind of like Skurnik Wines,
(05:00):
but nothing like Skurnik Wines.
But it had the opportunityto become a company
like Skurnik Wines.
It was called EstablishmentImport Company, owned by a guy
named Larry Rapoport.
And then after that,I convinced him
because I had learned,during my stint
with Kevin at Windows,that American wine
was actually a thing!Nobody took American
wine seriously, and there wasan up-and-coming group
(05:21):
of wineries, brand new wineriesat the time that just started
making wine.
Wineries with the names ofChateau Montelena, Stag's
Leap Wine Cellars,Stonegate, Raymond, Chateau
Saint Jean.
These all becamefamous and eventually sold and
became much larger wineries.
But they were brandnew wineries at the time, right?
(05:42):
Right, so I convinced Larry Rapoport
we should go out to Californiaand find a bunch of wineries,
which is what we did.
And I came back,and so I was the only sales
rep for all of these wineriesin metro New York.
And I had every account.
I had every account,I had Sherry-Lehman,
I had Abramsky,of course, from Crossroads
[Wine and Liquor].
I had Windows On The World.
(06:02):
Do we still use the samenumerical account numbers?
I think so.
Anyway, account001 was Windows On The World.
And then 002, 003, 004, and 005were all Smith and Wollensky
Group restaurants.
Because what happened was I wasalso a founder—not
just of SkurnikWines—I was a founder
(06:23):
of The Winettes.
The famous—infamous—unknownrock and roll cover band
that includedKevin Zraly, myself
on guitar, Josh Wesson,Richard Wagner, Joey
DeLissio, Brian Miller,who was the restaurant
critic of The New York Timesat the time.
We went out to Californiawith Ray Wellington,
who was running the wine programfor Smith Wollensky, and
(06:47):
Ray and I hopped a ridein the car together
down to Montereyfor the Monterey Wine Festival.
And he then informed methat he was putting together
this special,exclusive California
program for the PostHouse, California Cache.
It was calledthe California Cache.
So we we went, I said, look,Ray—I had a wholesale license
(07:09):
at the timebecause I was working for this
French company—andI said, why don't
I bring in the wines for you?
Let'sgo find these wines together,
and then I'll bring them in.
I'll do the logistics and I'llsell them to the restaurants.
And he said,yeah, that's a great idea.
So we tasted together,and we discovered
William Selyem,we discovered Talbott.
(07:29):
Anyway, there were sixCalifornia wineries,
and that was the beginningof this company.
Wasn't Bonny Doon one of them?
Yes.
Bonny Doon was one of them.
So that's how it started.
We had six California wineries.
“We,” meaning me.
I was the only one.
And you brought inlike five cases of each
or something?
We brought in the amountfor the California Cache program
and that was it.
(07:50):
And then Icontacted the wineries
and I said, I'd like tohave your blessing to be able
to go out and offerthese wines to other people.
And they said yes.
And that's that'show that started.
So we started as an Americanwine only wholesale company
in New York.
We had no sales reps.
That's when we hired Tom Lynch,who was our first salesperson,
(08:12):
and Dan Lerner was our secondsalesperson.
Harmon Skurnik (08:14):
Well, you didn't hire Tom
before you hired me.
Fast forward to 1989,which is when the business
was starting to take off.
I did a lot ofadministrative work
for you on the side.
Because the companyyou worked for
had the Apple account,and Apple was a new, young
computer company,and at the time
(08:34):
Harmon worked forit was Needham Harper
Worldwide, or BBDO.
One of those companies.
BBDO had the Apple account
and made that famous 1984Macintosh commercial.
And it was the it was theadvertising agency
in the world, really.
Phil Dusenberrywas the creative guy
who created that commercialand they were world famous.
They gave every employeeof the advertising company
(08:58):
an original Apple Macintosh,you know
the one that looked likeit would make a great
fish aquarium? Yeah.
So Harmonwas way ahead of the curve
because he learnedhow to operate that thing.
I'm probably saying too muchor maybe it's inaccurate,
but I don't think you hadenough work to
fill your fill your eight-or nine-hour day.
And you werelearning the computer.
(09:20):
And so when I neededsome price lists or some
point of sale material,I would I'd be running around
selling and I'd go up tothe 44th floor or something,
and he'd print outa hundred copies of price lists
and I'd go back out.
We also had the Xerox account.
Free Xerox, free Macs.
We had top of the lineXerox machines,
(09:40):
and I'd run his price listthrough there.
Double-sided and stapled!This was, like, mind-bending.
After I created them on thefirst word processor,
and we had the veryfirst laser printer.
But anyway,so I was working for you
part time with no pay.
You gave me a bottle of wineevery now and then, probably.
But, at one pointwhen Kermit Lynch
(10:04):
said yes to you to give youa line of imported wines,
you told me to come to lunchwith you at Keen's, where
we had a really nice steak,and you had opened a bottle,
or we ordereda bottle off the list
that you sold themof the William Selyem
Leno MartinelliZinfandel 1985 or 1986?
(10:24):
‘86.
Harmon Skurni (10:25):
With the company, we never really had
a business planor anything like that,
that we were going to growto a certain amount,
a certain point,a certain it—was
just very organic,the whole thing.
We started with these sixCalifornia wineries
and the Frenchportfolio of Kermit Lynch,
which gave us instantcredibility in the marketplace
(10:46):
with wineries like Raveneauand Coche-Dury
and Chevillon, Jayer.
The one caseyou got allocated a container
every year.
Michael Skurnik (10:55):
Oh, we got a whole container of Jayer
every year.
I don't know whatanybody tells you.
Harmon Skurnik (10:57):
Ha! Yeah, right.
And so the businessgrew organically from there,
and we hired our first salesman.
Michael, you said earlier,being the founder and all,
that the companyfor many years was called
Michael Skurnik Wines,and then we decided
probably, what,eleven or twelve years ago
to change the nameto Skurnik Wines & Spirits.
(11:20):
One reason was thatwe got into the spirits
business, right?
Well, just a short offshoot,anecdote about that.
The reason we changedthe name of the company
was becausewe designed a new logo,
the one you see aboutabout the office and on the back
(11:41):
labels of our winesand spirits.
That was rightabout the time that we moved
into this New York Cityheadquarters office
that we now occupy.
We came up with thisbeautiful design,
which looks like atop of a champagne cork.
And the designer had“Michael Skurnik
Wines & Spirits,” andwe all looked at thisand
said, it’s too many words.
(12:01):
Something has to go.
And it was eitherwe lost “Spirits” and kept
“Michael Skurnik Wines,”which is what
the name of the company was,or we lost “Michael.”
It had to be one or the other.
And I said, it's clearwe lose “Michael” because we
are invested in spirits.
We want that.
That is who we are.
(12:22):
And that's more importantthan my name
continuing to be on the nameon the logo.
Also, we said at the time that
most people referredto the company
as “Skurnik Wines”at that point already.
So, what was the origin ofhow we got into spirits?
Do you want to want to touchon that?
Michael Skurnik (12:39):
Yeah. Well, my wife and I had a restaurant
in the Caribbean, in theVirgin Islands,
called The Fatty Crab.
The Fatty Crab wasa couple of restaurants
in New Yorkowned by Zak Pelaccio.
And Adam Schuman, our beloveddirector of our
spirits portfolio,originally was a cook,
(13:00):
and he became thethe guy who did the
cocktail program for Fatty Crab.
And when we openedup in Saint John, Adam did
all the cocktailsin the program,
and I got to meet him.
And the restaurant,sadly, is no longer,
but we got Adam out of the deal.
We decided to work togetherand start in earnest
our real spirits portfolio.
(13:22):
We already had CharlesNeal's wonderful
brandies and Cognacs, Armagnacand Calvados elixirs,
and we had thegreat distillates from Hans
Reisetbauer in Austria,and we started out that way.
Harmon Skurnik (13:33):
At the time, isn't it true that the
craft spirits boomwas just underway?
Because prior to that spiritswere your standard
brands, your brand names.
But there weren't theseexciting new craft
(13:55):
distillers out there.
Also, the cocktail bar movementwas just starting.
Death and Co.
had just openedup, Mayahuel was a legendary
mezcal bar on East 6th Street.
And it just became exciting.
Then Pouring Ribbons opened,where I think Adam worked,
(14:15):
Amanda Elder worked there,and we have quite a few people
who worked there.
And so all this was happeningat the same time.
Adam came on board,and our very
first two spirits companiesthat we took on following
that were Greenhook Gin,Steven D'Angelo's
great company in Greenpoint,Brooklyn, and El Dorado
(14:36):
Rum from Guyana.
And that was the beginning.
Those were two very importantbrands—still
are—in our portfolio.
And it happened from there.
It kind of grew.
Do you rememberback before then, though,
even 20 or 30 years ago,people in the wine
trade would say you were eitherin the wine trade or you were in
(14:59):
the spirits trade.
There weren't many companiesthat did both.
And there was kindof a competition, like wine
peoplewould look down on spirits,
and they would say thingslike, well, you're in
competition with each other.
If you go to a restaurantand you order a cocktail,
well, you're not ordering wine.
(15:22):
And at this point in time,in our evolution, we realized
that there was a synergybetween the two.
And at the same time,restaurants were getting serious
about their cocktail programs.
And there's no reason whysomebody who comes
into a restaurant,can't have a cocktail and order
a bottle of winewith their dinner.
Michael Sku (15:40):
Like the two of us!
Harmon Skurnik (15:41):
It works! They work in tandem
and they actuallyhelp each other out.
And it's been just a tremendousaddition to this company
to have what many peopleconsider to be the finest craft
spirits portfolioin the business.
I have a good friend who isa winemaker, and I was
(16:04):
at his home for dinner.
This is a couple of years ago,and there was
someone at the dinnerwho was a critic and said,
hey, Michael, how's the spiritsbusiness going?
I said, oh, it'sgoing phenomenally.
It's the fastestgrowing part of our company.
She says, that's interestingbecause I've spoken
to a number of otherlocal New York wholesalers,
(16:25):
and they're not doing so well.
In fact, some of them areeven considering getting out
of the spirits business.
I said,well, that's pretty curious.
So I scratched my heada couple times, said, i think it might be this
. We love spirits.
We have a passion for spirits.
We go homeand we mix cocktails.
We love the flavors.
(16:46):
We love to experiment.
You can't just decideto get into the spirits business
because you see otherpeople are doing it.
Unless you have skin inthe game or you really care,
this is a business of passion.
So we continue to do well,and I don't know how
the other people are doing.
Well, we often say that
(17:06):
we have curated the spiritsportfolio with a wine palate.
We do approach our selectionof what goes
into the spirits portfoliothe same way we have
done for many,many years with wine.
And, um, I don't know thata lot of spirits companies
operate that waybecause they don't
(17:28):
have the experience, so I thinkit has given us an advantage.
Michael Skurn (17:30):
I think our other big advantage is the team
that we havein our spirits portfolio,
from Adam Schumanall the way down.
This is a collectionof superstars, people
that have high, highlevels of integrity
and can communicatethe enthusiasm and
the excitementand the knowledge of
not only the productsthat we represent,
(17:52):
but cocktailingand the mixology part of it
with passion.
Harmon Skurnik (17:55):
Yeah, that extends to our
entire sales staffand our entire staff at large.
Portfolio managementteam is amazing.
As I said before,it's about the portfolio
and it's about the people.
You have to do both well.
And I'm really proud of it,really.
(18:16):
I think it just comes down to,you know, the fact that we
have passion for what we do.
We have passionfor wine and spirits, and love
selling those thingsand turning people on to
new experiences.
Wine is not just a product.
Spirits are not just a product.
(18:37):
They are the productof the people behind them.
And the more you learnabout the people behind them,
the more you can appreciatetasting their great wines.
I think the USDA actually hasa definition
when they're talkingabout cheese—there's “cheese”
and then there's“cheese food.” Cheese
food is likean individually wrapped
piece of Kraft American cheese.
(18:58):
It's not really cheese.
The government wouldn'tallow them to say cheese.
So they came up witha new term, cheese food.
But most people who buy thatthink it's cheese.
But I raise thatbecause I think we should have
something similar with wine,because there's wine,
and there's fine wine, which iswho we represent
(19:18):
and what we drink.
It comes from under 5%of the total production of wine
on the planet.
And there'sindustrially-made wine,
which I'm not lookingdown my nose at it,
I'm just saying it'sa different category.
The person that buys a bottleof Skurnik wine or Skurnik
(19:39):
spirit is lookingfor a different experience.
They're looking to connect.
They're lookingfor the personality
of the wine, authenticity.
When you pop a bottle ofBeaujolais, if you've ever
been there, you're immediatelytransported back.
And that's thepart of the wine world
(20:00):
that we're involved inalong with many other companies.
We're not the only ones.
As Michael said earlier on,we were not a wine drinking
nation in the 1970s,in the 1980s.
We are much more sonow, but we're still not!
We have a long way to go.
Fine wine, at least, is hereto stay, and more
(20:23):
and more people willbe discovering it as time goes
on, as young people mature.
Wine has been aroundfor six thousand years.
It's not going anywhere.
It may not grow ten, fifteen,twenty percent per year,
like it has in some years.
It may flatten outfor a couple of years,
which is where we are now,and there may be
(20:46):
some casualties alongthe way, like wineries
that are not well-financedwill go out of business.
Distributors and importersthat are not well-financed
may go out of business.
Also, the trendsthat we read about
and that people write aboutand that people
want to talk about are real,but let’s not get overexcited
(21:08):
about anything that suggeststhat we're going to be
in trouble as an industry.
They mostly affect brands thathave 100% distribution
in the marketplace.
Whether it's Josh Cellars,for example, or Kendall Jackson,
you know, well-knownbrands, Gallo.
As soon as demandhas a slight pullback,
(21:29):
they feel it first.
But everything that we do hereat Skurnik Wines
& Spirits—we're so far underthat radar.
In this country, I don't knowwhat the per capita
consumption is today,but it's something like 4%
of the population drinks85% or 90% of the fine wine.
So we haven't even begunto scratch the surface with who
(21:51):
the potentialconsumers are going to be.
But we do know thatthis whole idea of people
learning abouthow to eat right—and
I don't mean healthy.
There's that too.
But how to eat well,what's the difference
between a great butterfrom Brittany and Parkay.
(22:14):
That's the trend, and it's arevolution, really.
I remember back there was agreat little store
called the Silver Palate.
It was a food provisionstore on the Upper West Side.
Two women started it,Sheila Lukins and Julee Rosso,
and they published a book,maybe you've seen
The Silver Palate Cookbook,and it became a standard,
(22:35):
a staple for most cooks.
And the book,I still have my copy of it.
A lot of the pagesare falling out, but every
ten or twelve or fifteen pagesthere would be a box
with info inside.
And it has shallots—there’sa page on shallots
explaining to Americawhat a goddamn shallot is.
(22:55):
So here we are.
That's forty years ago.
That's around the timethat we started this company.
So when I started selling wineand I went to restaurants,
they had one white by the glass,one red by the glass.
Not varietal,not vintage dated.
Sometimes they called itBurgundy if it was red,
sometimes they called itChablis if it was white.
(23:16):
Almaden would do that.
So there was no such thingas wine by the glass.
So the transformation has beentremendous, and we're not
going backwards.
The best thingabout this business,
really, is the fact that westill learn almost every day.
Kermit Lynch, as Harmonmentioned, was our first foray
(23:37):
into imported wines.
A few years later,we had the opportunity
to begin working with MarcDe Grazia selections.
We met Iano, Iano DeGrazia and Marco are brothers.
They ran a companyout of Florence.
It still exists.
We still work with them,and we learned
about Italian winethrough this experience
with the De Grazias.
(23:58):
Of course we hadhad Italian wine before.
We had had French wine before,but we learned
through our associationwith Kermit Lynch
going to Burgundy,visiting not just
Raveneau, Coche-Dury, Jayerbut we had Verset and Cornas.
So we had Clape in Cornas,we had Michel Rostang
and Côte Rôtie,so we got to meet the legends
(24:19):
when we were youngand they were not yet old.
And we learned how to do it.
We learnedhow to go into the cellar
and taste out of the barreland evaluate
what makes a good wine.
And the wineshould reflect the place
from which it comes.
And by going to Sancerreand tasting twelve or thirteen
(24:41):
different producersover the course of the years
and understandingwhat are the ideals
that you're looking for?
What makes a great Sancerre?
You can then,if you have a palate memory,
you can then compare what you'retasting today
to what that ideal is.
It's not perfection.
It's the quintessential,I would say.
(25:04):
The French use the wordtypicity, you know, typical,
which in English it doesn'treally translate that
well because like, typicalsounds like it's just average,
but that's whatthey mean by typicity or typical
is that—you mentionedVerset, Cornas—nothing
tastes like that.
These are uniqueexpressions of wine.
You don't have to makethe wine that way.
(25:25):
Like, you can come into Cornasand bring a bunch of
new new oak barrelsand make it taste
like a Cabernetif you wanted to.
But it would be atrocious.
The reason isbecause it wouldn't
taste like Cornas. Right?
I think that there isa standard
that you learn to respectwhen you taste wines
(25:48):
over the course of many years,and you travel,
and you understandwhat the wines
are supposed to taste like,and then the subjective part is
which qualities turn you on?
And I thinkthat this portfolio reflects
a lot of our personal tastes.
There are some winesthat are considered great wines
(26:09):
that we wouldn't take on,because they just
don't speak to us.
They're not our style.
And for whatever reason,our palates and our style
has resonatedin the marketplace,
thankfully, you know, and that'sone of the secrets,
I think, to our success,is that that
pursuit of that stylehas been consistent
(26:30):
over the years.
When peopleturn around the bottle
and they see Skurnikon the back label, not only do
they think thatthe wine will have
a certain quality to it,but also that it’ll
have a certain style to itthat is consistent.
I wouldn't disagreewith anything you said.
That's beautifullystated, actually.
But the word “style” is atough word because
(26:50):
it means different thingsto different people.
So, we like Cavallotto’sCru Barolo.
But we also like equally wellthe Anfosso Rossese,
which is a light red winethat you serve slightly chilled.
So, we like winesthat are super well made.
(27:13):
They reflectwhere they come from.
They have less hard edgesthan some others.
We don't like dirt in the wine.
We don't like funk.
Sometimes a littlefunk is good,
but we don't want anythingin the wine that covers up
the terroir.
And we are mostly representingsmall craft producers.
(27:37):
They are familybusinesses as well,
and there's a kinshipand kind of a simpatico
between usand our winery partners
because, in many cases,they're multi-generational
family businessesthat have passed down five, six,
seven, sometimes eleven,twelve generations.
(27:59):
And so those similarities inour business style
and our family business approachreally resonate with our
with our wineries.
They love to work with usbecause we're,
we're sort of like them
All through the yearswhen we would visit
cellars around the world,it was either two brothers or
(28:22):
a brotherand a sister or two sisters.
It's siblings.
So there was a natural affinitythere.
As opposed to a company who's not like us,
you know,the corporate-run company
that may be backedby private equity.
And they're very impersonal.
It's a completely differenttype of company to work with.
(28:44):
Maybe they pay the bills,maybe they can attract some
good wineries,but you don't have
the same kind of simpaticothat you do with
our producers, I don't think.
They love the factthat we're a family business.
They absolutely love it.
And when we told them last yearthat we have a plan
where our childrenare going to be
(29:06):
taking over eventually,as soon as this coming year,
taking over the day to dayresponsibilities,
they were thrilled for us,and they understood that
that's exactlywhat they go through.
My son and daughterboth work in the business.
Michael's son and two daughtersboth worked in the business.
His son in lawworks in the business.
(29:28):
So I think that being a familybusiness has been a great
strength of ours.
And if we need inspiration,we can talk about
our great friend Pepe Raventósfrom Raventós i Blanc in Spain,
who'sgoing to be one of our first,
if not the first podcast guests.
(29:48):
And he is either the sixteenthor the twenty-first generation
of his family.
Well, you’llhave to listen to the podcast
to find out.
Listen to the podcastto find out
what the correct number is.
But they've been livingin the same place
south of Barcelona,and it's pretty phenomenal,
especially for Americanslike us.
(30:09):
We live in a countrywhere we're all immigrants
and we all camefrom—most of us—have
all come from someplace else.
For better or for worse,we get the strengths of that,
which is whythis country is so great,
the foundation of that.
But to hear somebodygo that far back in
their family historyand talk about it and
(30:30):
get strength from it is really,really incredible.
Well, his family history wasthe origin of Cava in Spain.
And today Pepe andhis company, Raventós i Blanc,
which branched off from that,are producing
the finest sparkling winesin all of Spain.
Michael Skurnik (30:48):
His grandfather was the cellar
master at Codorniu,which is a large, inexpensive,
industrially-made Cava.
But back in those days,his grandfather
went to Champagne to seehow they were doing it,
and they saw that they hadcaves down that were cut out of
chalk in Champagne.
So they came back anddecided to call it Cava.
(31:09):
But, uh,when you visit Raventos,
if you're lucky enoughto go there,
their property is contiguousto the Condoniu property
because his grandfatherused to be part of it.
They arrangedfor us an incredible visit.
They've got like six or sevenor eight levels of cellars.
(31:32):
And I don't want to make itsound too Disneyland,
but there's a littlemotorized vehicle that takes you
all the way down,and it's filled with
millions and millionsof bottles.
So, maybe he'll get to say moreabout that than I can.
Harmon Skurnik (31:49):
This Skurnik Unfiltered podcast
is going to beexciting to follow.
I hope you find itexciting to follow.
We have already recordedsome really cool episodes
with some great winemakers,and you'll get to
learn about them, who they are,and their winemaking philosophy
and what makes them tick.
(32:11):
We've got episodes recordedwith Giorgio Rivetti, who is the
proprietor of La Spinetta,as well as Contratto
sparkling wine in Piedmont.
We've got theaforementioned Pepe
Raventós, the great sparklingwine producer from Spain
who spends a lot of timehere in New York
and loves New York.
(32:32):
And he's got a lotof wonderful things
to talk about.
Who else do we have?
Christina Turleyis going to come by.
She's the daughterof Larry Turley,
who's the founder ofTurley Wine Cellars
in Saint Helena,the great Zinfandel producer.
Quentin Paillardfrom Champagne.
(32:53):
Christopher Loewen,the son of Carl Loewen,
the great producerin the Mosel Valley.
He's a terrific,terrific winemaker
and got a lot of great thingsto talk about.
Hans Reisetbauer,who some people feel
(33:15):
is the greatestdistiller in the world,
will be here.
I guess he's going to be herewith his best friend
Bernhard Ott, who isa great producer of Grüner
Veltliner and Rieslingfrom Austria.
And Jason Kesner, the longtimewinemaker of Kistler
Vineyards in Sonoma,one of the great,
(33:35):
great producers ofChardonnay and Pinot Noir,
going back decades now.
Originally startedby Steve Kistler,
who now moved on to Occidental,which we also represent.
But Jason is a terrific,fabulous winemaker
and also philosopher.
And there's Annabel Thomas,who's the proprietor
(33:56):
of Nc’nean, the great,small producer of Scotch
in Scotland.
Completely organic,one of the rare
woman-owned distilleries.
And she's really a fun personto talk to.
Michael Skurnik (34:12):
Stay tuned.
We'll have a lot more,but that's just a little teaser.
Basically, the idea behindall this is to try to
give you a chanceto meet the personalities
behind the winesand the spirits.
I think that it'll bewell worth your while
to spend a little timewith these people
and hear a little bitabout what goes into
(34:36):
the production, a little bitabout the history, a little bit
about their passions and wherethings are headed.
You know, it's one thingto listen to this podcast,
to learn about the producers.
But it's very easyto just go to skurnik.com
and look upa producer that you liked
or that you're interested in,and there's
just an incredible amount,a plethora of information.
(34:58):
There's way more informationthan you'd ever want to see.
Just go on the website, look upyour favorite producer.
There's YouTube videos, there'stech sheets, of course, and
statistics—morethan you'd ever want.
Have a field day.
So if you're a wine lover,spirits enthusiast,
(35:23):
or you're looking to learnabout the people behind
your favorite wines and spirits,be sure to subscribe to Skurnik
Unfiltered on Apple, Spotify,or wherever podcasts are found.
Michael S (35:34):
Thanks for listening.
Harmon, it's been greatsharing this podcast with you
and all these 38+ years.
Harmon Skurnik (35:41):
Cheers to the next 38.
Michael Skurnik (35:42):
Na zdorovie.
Harmon S (35:50):
Unfiltered is recorded at Skurnik Wines &
Spirits headquartersin the Flatiron District
of New York City, which is whyyou might hear
some city noises as we goalong, like horns honking.
If you found the conversationinteresting, please consider
liking, subscribing,and leaving a review.
You can stay up to dateon our show and upcoming events
by following @skurnikwineson Instagram and visiting our
(36:13):
website at skurnik.com
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