January 8, 2024 • 50 mins
Have you ever felt the tension of transitioning from individual contributor to leader? Faced the uncertainty of how to lead effectively? Maybe even felt guilty that you weren't doing the work you used to? In this episode, I coach Kevin Lee, CEO of immi, and we dive into this topic head on.
Deeper into the session, I help Kevin confront the emotional core of his troubles. And from there, he works through some deep insecurities, which helps him make the surprising connection between his inner world and his outer leadership.
Watch this session on YouTube
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Wang (00:01):
Welcome to Slow Down , to Speed Up.
I'm Brian Wang, an executivecoach who helps startup founders
grow by working through theirbiggest challenges.
On this show, I sit down withfounders for a one-time coaching
session where you will hearthings my guests never say
elsewhere, because they'reworking through real life
current leadership issues.
When we struggle, we're oftentempted to find a quick solution
(00:22):
, and sometimes that's all weneed.
But when we're findingourselves stuck in those really
tricky recurring problems,that's when it's time to slow
down, because breaking throughto the next level requires us to
examine what patterns may beholding us back and what new
perspective might be called for.
I ask everyone who comes hereto dig deep and trust that
(00:42):
through this work, they willdiscover something new about
themselves and how to moveforward with their business.
I hope you find somethingvaluable in what you hear today
for your own journey.
In today's session, I work withKevin Lee, co-founder and CEO of
Imi, which makes the world'shealthiest ramen noodles.
Together we explore a commonchallenge making the leap from
(01:04):
individual contributor to leader.
It's worth noting that Kevin'sbeen actively working on this
issue for some time.
He's made a lot of progress asImi has grown, but he still
struggles and he senses it'sbecause of some deeper reason.
We start by looking at hisbelief that earning the respect
of his team means being in thetrenches with them, by making
his work visible, valuable andobvious for all to see.
(01:24):
What Kevin eventually realizesis that all of this comes down
to deeper fears and insecuritiesthat, if left unaddressed, will
wreak havoc on his business.
Okay, let's listen in.
Hey, kevin, good to see you,man, good to see you too.
It's been a while.
Yeah, it's been a little while.
I'm excited to get into anothersession with you today and I
(01:46):
just want to hand it off to youand just ask you, kevin, as
you're coming into our sessionand a conversation, what are you
bringing in that you want totake a look at right now?
Kevin Lee (01:56):
I think that for today's topic I'd love to
discuss something that's beentop of mind recently and
probably has been top of mindfor the past six months to a
year now.
Imi has grown, partially thanksto a lot of your help over the
past few years, to a team ofaround 15 people now.
(02:20):
We do have some part-time folks,of course, outside of that, but
15 full-time, and one of theproblems I continue facing as a
leader is learning how to stopmyself from continuing to want
to do individual contributorlevel work as a way to both
(02:45):
fulfill, I would say maybe justa personal need of, you know,
wanting to build things whenthey're ground up.
But if I were more self-aware,it feels like why I'm doing a
lot of the individualcontributor work still is, I
feel, this incessant need toearn the respect of my org and
(03:06):
just the team in general.
Part of that stems from thefact that my co-founder, k-chan,
and I really had to doeverything with just the two of
us for the first few yearsbefore we even hired our first
team member.
So there is kind of a ingrainedhabit there.
But I'd love to dig deeper intowhy I can't seem to let go and
(03:32):
spend more time, delegating,managing the team, enabling the
team to succeed, versus jumpingin and wanting to do the
individual level, individualcontributor level work.
Brian Wang (03:43):
Yeah, yeah, totally, and this is a topic that you
and I have touched on before.
Right it's.
It's something that I think alot of people struggle with when
they're when they're going fromIC to leader or maker to
manager, that that transition, Ithink, is notoriously difficult
, and so I guess, given the factthat it's an issue that you've
(04:06):
been aware of for a while andyou have really worked on, I'm
curious, you know, if you wereto just spend a few minutes,
even like, like theorizing as towhy it's been such a struggle
for you.
I'm curious how you describe it.
Kevin Lee (04:26):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think that there was probablya phase one of this issue which
was, like you described, thethe typical issue from maker to
manager, where I did struggle inthe early days with delegating,
letting go, and then that nolonger became an issue,
especially as we group past 10team members, as we all brought
(04:49):
on, for example, our own youknow, even our own executive
assistants for each team member.
You know we teach delegationpretty heavily, even at Emmy
when, during onboarding.
However, I think there was aphase two where, beyond just the
maker to manager transition, Inoticed that there was again
something even deeper rootedwhich was this yeah, I could.
(05:12):
I don't know if it's a peoplepleasing tendency, I don't know
if it's a immigrant upbringingtype situation, but there
definitely was this need to showmy org.
Hey, look, guys like I can dothe work too alongside you.
And we're in the trenchestogether and, you know, I maybe,
(05:34):
my, maybe it's a leadership ormanagement style where I have to
almost like be in the weedswith you guys so that you feel
like I'm there beside you,versus just some manager who has
lost touch with reality and,yeah, no longer understands how
to actually even do the work.
And this has been a constantinsecurity of mine, even before
(05:58):
becoming a founder.
I recall when I was working aseven a product manager in tech,
I always felt this need that Ihad to be the one learning how
to design or code so that Icould do the work equally well
as well as my fellow engineer ordesigner, even though that that
wasn't clear the case, but surethere was.
(06:19):
Just that there was this needto again be in the trenches with
the folks to earn their respect.
Brian Wang (06:24):
Quote-unquote yeah, yeah, so let's, let's go there
for a moment then.
So you said that you can noticeyourself almost, go and
communicate to the team.
Hey guys, I'm one of you, I'mwith you, I'm in the trenches, I
can do this alongside you, andyou link that to respect.
(06:46):
So tell me about what the linkthere is between being worthy of
respect and this way of showingup, as I can get my hands dirty
too like what's the link therefor you?
Kevin Lee (07:05):
I think the link perhaps comes from my own
experiences working in my careerprior to being, prior to
starting in me, where I mighthave a particular bias for the
managers I always enjoyedworking with.
(07:26):
But the managers I love workingwith could do the work that I
did, often even doing it betterthan I ever could, and it was
through watching them that Itruly felt wow, you know, you,
you could do my work, but you'renot because you're managing me.
Therefore, I need to step it upas as your direct report, and I
(07:48):
think there was something thattransferred over, you know,
especially when I became aleader here at Imi, where I felt
that I had to embody that samerole model mentality that I
myself cherished when I wasworking in the tech industry so
cool.
Brian Wang (08:07):
Let me, let me bounce that back.
So in your past working historywith managers, when they would
come in and really activelydemonstrate that they could do
the job the same job and maybeeven better that to you it felt
like it sounded like it actuallyraised the stakes for you in
(08:28):
some sense.
If I heard it correctly, it'slike okay, like I'm gonna, I'm
gonna call your manager Bob forokay, manager Bob, okay.
So manager Bob comes in.
It's like, hey, kevin, you'reworking on this thing, and he
just goes and just activelyshows you he can do it ten times
better, you know.
And but you also sit with theknowledge that he's not going
(08:51):
and doing the work, he'smanaging you.
So there you are feeling like,ah, he's, bob is watching me, he
knows how to do this job well,I'd really better, I really have
to show up and do it as well,if not better, than Bob.
We're getting somewhere closeto it and so before like, let's,
(09:12):
we'll spend more time on that.
But what I'm hearing from thatis that was motivating to you in
some way and it also made youlook at Bob in a certain way,
and then the hope is that thatsort of translates similarly to
your team am I?
Am I describing it correctly?
Kevin Lee (09:32):
that is definitely correct.
I think there's.
That is that's what I thinkabout.
And even though people alwayssay, hey, there's plenty of role
models in different industries,there's sports coaches who
never played, you know,professional sports, who are
able to coach a team intowinning championships.
And then, on the other side ofthe spectrum, you have folks
like I don't know an Elon Muskwho can get down into the weeds
(09:55):
of rocket science and banterwith the engineers as if he was
a fellow rocket scientist.
Yes, I see both sides of thespectrums.
For some reason, I seem togravitate more towards the Elon
Musk side of things, more sothan the coaches never played
the professional sport, eventhough I know both work.
Brian Wang (10:12):
Sure, that might just be an insecurity of mine
okay, so let me ask a dumbquestion what makes it a problem
that you're leaning towardsthat these days?
Kevin Lee (10:24):
I think the problem is that I find myself here's a
small example At Emmy we runmarketing sprint planning
because we have now five membersin the marketing team,
including myself, and we're alldifferent, doing different work
streams.
Some are perhaps evenoverlapping, and we just need to
(10:44):
make sure that in every sprintcycle we're not accidentally
again overlapping too much ofthe work.
And I really should just beoverseeing that sprint planning
process because a lot of theprojects that come up are
individual contributor work.
But I find myself volunteeringto take over projects or tasks
(11:06):
just because I feel guilty if Iam the one walking away from
that sprint with the fewestamount of tasks in my swim lane.
Brian Wang (11:17):
And this is a situation just to clarify.
This is a situation whereothers could theoretically take
those on Correct.
See, it's not a case where it'slike, oh man, we just, we don't
have the capacity.
It's like, you know, it'sreally this guilt thing rather
than whoa, where everyone'soverextended, kevin's gotta step
it up.
Is that kind of what we'retalking about?
Kevin Lee (11:35):
I think it's probably 50, maybe 60%.
Guilt 40%.
Oh, that does sound exciting tome.
But then I start to question oh, should I even be excited about
it?
Versus, should I just delegate,you know, enable other team
members to take it on, yeah, andyeah, so there's this.
Brian Wang (11:55):
Well, it's interesting because I hear I
asked you the question, whatmakes it a problem?
And you noted how one of theproblems quote unquote is that
you have this sensation of guiltaround you know, not having,
you know, some work from thesprint, and also there's some
(12:16):
genuine excitement.
So I hear there's like athere's some positive attractor
there.
Kevin Lee (12:22):
If we were to look at the team, though, like what is
the problem for the team, if any, right now, as you're touching
this, I think one problem isthat if I develop a habit of
consistently wanting to pick uptasks or projects every single
sprint, I'm going to overloadmyself doing a lot of this
individual contributor workversus spending time as a leader
(12:45):
doing what a leader should,which I think we've spoken about
.
You know when I won't reiterateall the things like making sure
that people are, you know, theright people on the bus, setting
the vision, setting the rightgoals, giving people resources
all that stuff is going tofalter with every second that I
spend trying to spin up some newproject or task myself, and the
(13:08):
other thing that happens is I'malso taking away an opportunity
for other team members to learnthat particular project or task
, just because I feel I'mqualified and it's fun for me
and something I want to pick up.
So I think there's a two-foldissue here that's happening.
Yeah, yeah that.
(13:30):
I'm trying to learn to let go of.
Brian Wang (13:32):
Right, okay, so there's the opportunity cost.
There's like, oh there's, I'mtaking away from my direct
leadership influence on the teamwhen I'm loading myself with IC
work and I'm also in some waysrobbing people the opportunity
to grow and learn and excel whenI take on some of those
(13:55):
projects as well.
So we'll probably come back tothe guilt thing.
That feels important, but Iwonder if we can turn our
attention toward the team fornow.
So when you pause and youreally consider what would be
most of service to the teamright In this current phase of
(14:18):
life for me and where you'regoing, describe for me what they
really need from you.
Kevin Lee (14:26):
Yeah, that's an excellent question.
I think that the team right now, the stage that we're at, the
most important thing is and thisis like the logical side of me
talking out loud so it issetting the direction in which
(14:47):
the team needs to move towards,which oftentimes comes down to
providing the goals.
We do OKR planning.
So that usually means I justneed to provide them with the
objective, and the team shouldthen be able to figure out their
own key results as well as theprojects to achieve those key
results.
Outside of that, the mostimportant thing is what I call
(15:09):
you know, when you think ofmanagement.
It's ensuring that they havethe right resources to
accomplish those key results andobjectives, as well as
unblocking them.
So helping to figure out whereI can insert myself for, again,
provide resources to helpunblock them.
And then the third I would sayis pushing them in ways that
(15:32):
they may not push themselvesright.
It's like believing in someonemore than they would believe in
themselves.
Yeah, I think those areprobably the.
I think there were fourelements there that I know would
be the most beneficial to theteam members.
Yeah, and again, yeah, I thinkdoing individual contributor
work takes away from those fouritems.
Brian Wang (15:52):
Got it Okay.
So there's the setting the goal, envision the direction broadly
.
There's the unblocking makingsure people have sufficient
resources, clarity, et cetera.
And there's the pushing.
There's this sort of dynamicwhere of hey, I know that
there's more for you, you havegreater potential than where you
(16:14):
are now.
Let me push you toward that,yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I'm wondering, as you'reconnecting with those items you
mentioned this as the kind ofintellectual answer as you're
connecting with those particularresponsibilities what do you
notice?
You start to feel.
Kevin Lee (16:34):
I feel that the four items I listed are almost just
management woo-woo talk, whichis hilarious because it's like
every book you read, everyoneyou talk to, they all say those
same four things.
Yet when I think of those, I'mlike, okay, yeah, of course
(16:54):
we're gonna give you like anobjective, but that's one.
What is that?
Like a one week, two weeks outof like the quarter that you're
doing that kind of thinking, andof course, I'm going to help
unblock you or push you a littlebit harder.
Make sure you have enoughresources.
We do that during theone-on-ones, but is that 24
seven of my time?
(17:15):
No, therefore, am I supposed tojust sit around during the
times?
I'm not doing those things?
And I think that's probablywhere that guilt kicks in,
because I'm thinking God, thatsounds like management talk
versus let's all move, let's allgo in the same direction, like
I want to.
Brian Wang (17:34):
Again, I want to be there building with you.
So when you say, okay,interesting.
So when you say woo-woo andjust hear you describe it, it
sounds like it's almost likeyou're skeptical of it in some
sense.
Or it's like, yeah, like I know, like that's what you're
supposed to do, but that can'treally take up all of my time,
(17:55):
right?
Is that all that I have to do?
And then there's, like this,the remainder of your time
working.
You're sort of left to wonder,like what else do I do with my
energy Is kind of what I'mpicking up here.
Kevin Lee (18:10):
That's what it feels like and again, the logical side
of me could always rationalizelike, oh, maybe that means I
need to better prioritize what Ispend my personal time doing,
doing things the rest of theteam can't do with partnerships
or BD, and maybe it's a matterof prioritization.
But yeah, I think deep down Ineed to unblock or remove that
(18:35):
negative story I have around themanagement woo-woo piece
because that's probably holdingme back as a leader, if I had to
guess.
Brian Wang (18:44):
Okay, so what's that negative story that you have of
it?
If you were just to describe itin a few sentences?
Kevin Lee (18:52):
I think the negative story is, having worked a decade
in the tech industry at mid tolarge to you know, hyperscale
companies and seeing middlemanagement that feels more like
bureaucracy than actuallyhelping push the organization
(19:15):
forward.
And when you see that kind ofbloat, you can't help but feel
that sometimes managers don'treally do anything and I don't
ever wanna be a manager likethat.
I want the team.
You know people say what is it?
They say servant leadership.
I don't even know if that's theright term here, where it's
(19:37):
like.
I've always interpreted it asas like you are doing the work
with the team.
You are the servant of the teamin a way, and maybe that's just
something I've tried to adoptor the mentality.
Maybe I don't even have thedefinition right.
I need to figure it out.
But yeah, I think that's wherethat comes from.
Brian Wang (19:56):
So you have this direct experience of management
as like a bloated function.
Kevin Lee (20:02):
Yes, and To be fair, I was a lot more junior then, so
there are probably many thingsI didn't see that management was
doing.
Maybe they were shielding usfrom, I don't even know.
Like I think, the later I getin my career, the more I start
to realize how naive I wasearlier in my career.
(20:22):
Sure, so I'm trying to have theempathy, but it is hard to
unsee those things.
Brian Wang (20:29):
What that sort of brings up to me is, in a lot of
ways, there's this invisiblework that leaders and managers
do, and then there's theperception that the teams that
they lead have of the leader,right.
So, no matter what people aregonna form opinions of you, and
(20:55):
it's almost guaranteed thatthose opinions are not gonna be
like a full reflection ofreality, because that's just the
way humans work, like we don'tcontain all of the truth of
everything.
It's all subjective.
And so the reason it's comingup for me is because I'm hearing
you reflect on how it felt backthen.
There was like this naivete,and then how it feels now.
(21:16):
It's like, oh, you have thisknowledge that not everything a
leader is doing might be soobvious to a team, right?
And so I wonder, like, to whatextent this is you needing to
(21:37):
make your work obvious?
to the team.
Kevin Lee (21:41):
There is a.
Actually I've never heard aphrase like that and I think the
moment you said that itdefinitely did resonate a little
bit.
It was definitely that oh, I'mtrying to make it obvious to you
that I am delivering valueversus being this middle manager
who's just like sitting in thebackground overseeing the work
(22:03):
quote unquote and not reallytruly feeling like I'm
delivering value to you.
Brian Wang (22:09):
So Well, but there's a linkage there that I'm
hearing.
There's like delivering realvalue is linked to it being
obvious, yes, right.
And so I wanna maybe use ananalogy here.
People talk about behind thescenes, right?
(22:30):
They often when some amazingwork has been created.
People also give credit topeople who are behind the scenes
, and we understand that behindthe scenes individuals are not
in a spotlight, right, and partof the reason people thank them
explicitly is because they'renot getting recognition.
Like it would be easy to forgetabout them.
(22:52):
And so I wanna sort of likeplay with that idea.
Like, because we know thatthose people behind the scenes
are essential, right, they'redoing incredibly important work
on a film set.
There's, just, like, so manypeople who are doing essential
work that were not for them, thefilm would never get created,
right, so we know that they'reproviding some real value there.
(23:12):
So I'm sort of wondering if wecan play with that analogy.
What if it were possible foryou to know you were really
providing this behind the sceneswork, or invisible work,
whatever you wanna call it,without it having to be obvious
from the outside or even to theteam per se?
(23:32):
What if it were possible foryou to just sit knowing I am
really aiding this team, andthey may not even know a lot of
the ways in which I'm doing thaton the surface.
Kevin Lee (23:47):
I mean I would love for that to happen.
I think part of that almostfeels like I just have to learn
to value myself and the workthat I am doing, without needing
the external validation from ateam member or direct report
saying, hey, kevin, you're doinga great job, all the stuff
you're doing to help manage mehas really helped unblock me,
(24:10):
like short of them directlysaying that I just need to feel
that level of confidence and Idon't think I'm there yet Okay.
Brian Wang (24:16):
so let's pause there , because I think what you're
touching on feels reallyimportant.
So can you just say more aboutthe piece where, like, I need to
value myself more here?
Kevin Lee (24:30):
I think that a lot of times, what you said around,
like a lot of leaders do a lotof work behind the scenes, they
don't get credit for it andthat's okay.
I'd like to hope that that isthe case for me and the team.
I'd like to hope that everyonefeels equally that I care about
them as a manager, I truly careabout their development, and I
(24:55):
don't actually I don't need themto tell me that, right, I think
I just inherently like that'sthe type I want to mentor them,
help them grow, yeah, at thesame time.
Brian Wang (25:06):
But there is a part that does wanna hear that True?
Kevin Lee (25:09):
yes, I think from just like a basic human ego.
Yes, of course, it would benice to hear that too.
Also, as like the feedback loop, to know you are doing a like,
you wanna make sure you arepointing them in the right
direction, you are doing a job.
So, yes, there's probably waysI can solicit that kind of
feedback.
Maybe I just need to do it alittle bit more actively during
one-on-ones.
Brian Wang (25:32):
Well.
So I wanna maybe comment onthat.
So I think you could do that.
You could go and speak to yourteam in a way where maybe it
opens up more of an opportunityfor them to give you positive
feedback and I think positivefeedback is fantastic.
(25:53):
But I'm more curious about sortof how you're relating to the
need itself.
So let me try to be a littlebit clear about what I mean,
Because what I'm hearing in thisconversation, Kevin, is that
you notice the desire to receivepraise from others, and we
(26:17):
might even agree that thatdesire to receive praise from
others is part of the quote,quote, quote, quote problem,
Like it's part of what's drivingyou to kind of do the IC work
right.
Or the flip side to that is theguilt right.
If I don't have that work, icwork then I must have done
(26:39):
something wrong or I'm not gonnaget the praise I want.
There are multiple angles thereso that all feels like it goes
back to this thing where I needto value myself Like what does
that mean to you?
Hmm.
Kevin Lee (27:00):
This is gonna be a much longer session.
I was like if we could probablygo into childhood upbringing
and the desire to need thatvalidation from the immigrant
parents.
There's probably a lot of deeprooted things here that are
leading to this type of thinking.
Gosh, I'm trying to figure outwhere to even go, given how
(27:26):
massive this could be if we weretrying to dig deeper.
Brian Wang (27:29):
Well, let's tune into where you are in this
present moment, this now moment.
So how much can you valueyourself right now?
How much can you love yourselfright now?
Like how present are you tothat?
Kevin Lee (27:48):
I mean, I think that's the gap really is.
Clearly I am not valuing myselfand the effort that I put into
caring about the team and I'dlike to think the team knows
that I truly do put a lot ofeffort into working with them
(28:11):
and managing them but there's,like this self criticism that's
clearly happening Even in theway.
I think I even started thisconversation where I said I'm
doing this individual work andit's because I don't really
value the managerial work thatI'm doing.
I'm calling it woo, woo, Right,like there's.
It's almost like I'mintentionally putting that
(28:32):
criticism so that I have ahigher bar for myself constantly
.
So I'll keep raising my own barover and over.
Brian Wang (28:39):
I never want to actually hit the bar, so how
much does that internal criticprevent you from feeling
valuable?
Kevin Lee (28:55):
Oh a lot.
I think that it.
I think it's no different thanthe founders I listened to who
tell themselves oh, I don't wantto let go of my chip on my
shoulder through therapy,because then I'll lose my drive.
I think that's exactly what'shappening here, as I think, now
that I'm speaking out loud, it'slike yeah, I feel that as a
(29:15):
manager, I'm unwilling to acceptthe role that I should be
playing so that I can maintainthis chip on the shoulder, that
I need to up level myself as amanager even further, but
instead I'm then resorting tothe wrong responsibilities and,
(29:39):
yeah, clearly it's holding meback as a leader.
Brian Wang (29:42):
Sure, yeah.
So I wonder if you can see ifyou can actually move a little
bit closer to that criticinternally, so see if you can
notice how it sits in yoursystem, see if you can grow just
(30:03):
a little more curious about it,Like it's clearly working
really hard and maybe it'sworking in I don't know we could
call it counterproductive waysI use that term lately but I
wonder what happens for you asyou start to move toward it a
little bit and you start towonder, like what is this thing
(30:25):
really trying to do here?
Kevin Lee (30:35):
Well, as I move towards it, the first thing that
I think about is how can Ireimagine this relationship I
have with the concept ofmanagement and the value that
management brings.
(30:55):
And I think it's only if I canlet go of that type of negative
language I just spewed around,management being woo woo If I
can rebuild that relationship,repair that relationship, then I
will truly value myself as amanager.
Or maybe it's the other wayaround.
I think it's the other wayaround.
Brian Wang (31:19):
If you're not valuing yourself, you will
always find some other reason tocriticize the thing that you're
doing.
Kevin Lee (31:24):
Yeah, that's hilarious.
I just defaulted to that.
Okay, well, I got to valuemyself, to then value the skills
or the responsibilities I bringas a manager, which will allow
me to let go of the need toprove myself as an individual
contributor.
Brian Wang (31:48):
So this criticism, or we can imagine the critic
right, this critic as some partof you, what's it worried, will
happen if it stops criticizingyou?
Kevin Lee (32:03):
Oh man, yeah, I just, I guess I don't want to get
complacent, I really don't wantto be the I guess I feel like I
shouldn't be the manager wholoses touch with reality.
Brian Wang (32:17):
If you get complacent and you lose touch,
what happens?
What's the scary thing thathappens?
Kevin Lee (32:24):
The scary thing is that the team loses respect for
me.
They feel like they're nolonger growing or learning,
especially from me.
Abandoned, frankly speaking,because I worry they'll just
jump ship and leave, and thatfear of abandonment is has been
(32:44):
always been a recurring theme.
Brian Wang (32:46):
Yeah, so the critic is really working hard to make
sure you don't have to feelabandoned.
Yes, sounds like it's got agood reason to do that.
Then Abandonment feels reallyscary.
Where do you feel any of thatsense of abandonment right now,
(33:06):
if at all?
Kevin Lee (33:09):
Mostly the heart.
I mean there's yeah, it'sobviously there's there's the
deep rooted things, but there'salso just a sphere of you know,
me and Kchan spent yearsbuilding Amy, starting from
ground up with nothing, and justit's like we don't want to go
back to that.
I don't, like any founder does.
Brian Wang (33:33):
So I wonder if you can just sit with that feeling
though that you were justdescribing, the one in the heart
, the abandonment, the part,that feeling that your system is
working so hard to avoid orresist.
So is it still feel like it'sin the heart and when you, when
(33:56):
it shows up in the body?
Kevin Lee (33:59):
The heart is where it starts, the gut is where it
lands.
When I think of the worst casescenario, it's almost like a
punch in the gut.
Oh my God, the abandonment ishappening.
Brian Wang (34:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So what happens if you justallow that, if you allow
yourself to feel that a littlebit right now?
Kevin Lee (34:29):
Well it it sucks.
But at the same time, as soonas I let it pass, the rational
side of my brain kind of startsto kick in and it starts to
think wow, kevin, that's a,that's a really dumb thought,
that's a that's more criticism.
Yeah, that's true, yeah.
(34:49):
Hmm.
Brian Wang (34:52):
So let's set the intellectual aside for a moment.
Oftentimes, our intellectualintellectualization is just a
way to bypass our feelings.
So so we'll just sit with thesit with the feeling a little
bit longer.
Kevin Lee (35:09):
Yeah, I'm trying to feel my way out of this, that
fear of abandonment it's.
It almost feels like the onlyway out of it is to rationalize
it through the, through theintellectual.
Brian Wang (35:24):
Yeah, that's.
That's often how painfulfeelings work, right?
They're so intolerable like wewant to find a way out by
mentalizing, intellectualizing.
But what happens if you justcheck in with the feeling,
though like to like, really notabandon it, to stay with it.
Kevin Lee (35:55):
It doesn't feel too bad to just feel it all the way
through, realize that thisfeeling could happen someday and
that's okay.
Yeah, I guess it's it's.
(36:17):
Maybe most of the internalstruggle is like not wanting to
feel these feelings andtherefore you do whatever it
takes to not feel it, versusjust feel it all the way through
and then it kind of just passes.
Brian Wang (36:37):
How old is the feeling Like, like?
If you were to say like, howold is the kid that felt that
feeling?
Kevin Lee (36:55):
Very, very young.
You know very much, very muchthe.
You know the young I don't evenknow how old you know being
disciplined by the immigrantparents, and whether it's for
(37:15):
something academic, andbelieving that they'll leave you
or you'll be left if you don'tperform Up to the standard that
is required.
Brian Wang (37:29):
That's a really harsh way for a child to be
treated.
Kevin Lee (37:34):
It is, it is very common, very common, I think.
First gen immigrant story.
Brian Wang (37:42):
Or just most yeah yeah.
So, of course, you know how dowe have more time we could get
into the intergenerationalcomponent of this.
Let me ask you this, kevin,just like as you're in touch
with that part that that thatyoung kid who got treated
(38:03):
harshly or was had the fear ofabandonment if they didn't, you
know, perform, what did it needthen that it didn't get?
Kevin Lee (38:18):
I think that the discipline could have come in a
different form.
Yes, of course I'll caveat, youknow, parents don't?
It's their first rodeo, theydon't know how to do a lot of
this stuff and I definitelydon't fault them at all for it.
I think I think, if I thinkabout how I'm going to raise you
(38:39):
know, my wife and I are goingto raise our own child there is
a type of discipline that cancome through love, that can
reassure the child, and I think,like we're always going to be
here for you, regardless of whathappens in the situation.
(39:00):
You know, we're just trying towork through this problem
together and I think when youprovide that level of foundation
to any child, they don't haveany insecurities or gaps or
holes in their heart that couldcause them to then, you know,
lash out or grow up.
You know grow in certain ways.
That's my philosophy anyways.
(39:26):
So I think so, yeah, it's yeah.
Brian Wang (39:29):
Yeah, I want to invite you just to give yourself
that, or give that that youngboy that, right now, that
reassurance that you'll be thereno matter what.
Kevin Lee (39:54):
Yeah, there's a there's a vicious cycle and I
think I do think, if we had moretime, there's something to go
into here.
I think there's this element ofyou know, I feel confident
telling that young boy that it'sgoing to be okay, because I
feel extremely self reliantbecause of this feeling of this
(40:16):
chip on the shoulder that Inever wanted to be abandoned and
therefore I was going to dowhatever it takes to get to a
point where you know that Iwould never feel abandoned by
anyone, because I could rely onmyself.
And I think there's this likethere's that perpetuating cycle
of that chip on the shoulderthat the that founders talk
about, and it's going to take alot of deep work to To unlearn
(40:37):
that and work on that piece.
But I have to admit it's notsomething that can be done, I
think, in this short session,which is you know why have all
is appreciated our sessionstogether?
Because this is something Iknow we've worked on for years
self-reliance.
Brian Wang (40:53):
You know it can be a superpower Until it starts to
get in the way of something else.
Yeah, but yeah, I guess, justto reflect on what you said, I
think, even with all of the Like, the wounding that caused you
(41:15):
to have to be so self-reliant,there's no need to take any of
that away.
You present day adult Kevin,can still provide that you're
gonna version of yourself, thatpromise of being with it.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly as you are today.
There's no need to change thatright.
(41:36):
What does that bring up for youI?
Kevin Lee (41:51):
Definitely think that's possible and there are
many role models that I followwho have also done the inner
worked To come to that samerealization that you just called
out and their inner drive comesfrom somewhere much More
(42:13):
healthy and everlasting, versus.
You know the drive that perhapsI'm moving off of right now,
but I definitely think it'spossible because I've seen it be
possible In again in the rolemodels, some of the role models
I follow.
So it is just going to be anongoing practice of Call itself
(42:37):
love or gratitude.
You know, filling that, fillingthose gaps in the, in the, in
the holes of the heart, thatthat I think every adult needs
to work on.
Hmm yeah.
Brian Wang (42:54):
So We'll start to run out of time here, so maybe
we can start to close you weretouching on this already just
now, kevin Kind of further work,so Maybe we can consider some
ways you can extend it.
So I'll just start with you,like, I guess, as you Reflect a
(43:19):
bit on on what we've explored,what might feel, what might feel
valuable for you to continue topractice or to experiment with
here.
Kevin Lee (43:30):
Well, I think one thing that came top of mine was
you calling out something aroundlike wanting to make my work
obvious it it did triggersomething for me, which is it's
not that I need to make my workor it's a if for me.
I think what I need to do isnot make my work obvious to the
team, but make the work obviousto myself, and the way to do
(43:51):
that, I believe, is, for example, I do my weekly reflections
every Saturday morning, where Ihave this notion template I fill
out.
I think I need to add a sectionfor myself where I'm Literally
writing like this is what youdid as a manager this week, and
here is why it was awesome orwhy it was.
You know you are, why I amsuper proud of that work, and
(44:12):
I'm just going to write all thethings I did, and it can be
something as small as you know.
Hey, this team member had thisproblem and I helped him work
through it and there wasn't anytangible output, but clearly it
was a mental unlock or an ahamoment for them, and I think the
more I write these things down,the more I'll retrain my
relationship with you know whata manager does and why it's
(44:35):
beneficial, and I'll start tofigure out why it's beneficial,
and I'll start to feel Moresecure and happier and maybe
even just proud of myself fordoing the work that I do, and
that'll let me finally let go ofAnything that's not managerial
work.
So that's, that's probably themost tangible thing I can think
of right now, something that'simmediately actionable, because
(44:57):
I already have a habit and Ijust need to add a little bit to
that habit.
Brian Wang (45:01):
Yeah, I love that and I think that there's so much
in what you just shared,because I think there is a
Progressive Building of evidenceof, hey, I am doing great work
as a manager.
Here's the evidence and I canstart to craft a new Story or
identity around it.
(45:21):
Right, I know what my identityas an excellent, I see, looks
and feels like this is thisRelatively new one that doesn't
quite feel stable, it feels alittle scary, and so just to
even just take the time to Lookback, reflect on it, document it
(45:41):
appreciate it Feels like itstarts to sort of train your
brain a little bit.
It's like, hey, like there issomething to be appreciated here
, right, if you sort of take thetime to do it.
Kevin Lee (45:54):
Definitely it's.
It's exactly that.
It's reframing my identityentirely, which I think is like
the most fundamental part ofhabit building too.
Brian Wang (46:07):
Yeah, and so the other thing maybe just to touch
on is, you know we talked abouthow there's this really strong
inner critic, which I mean somany of us struggle with, right
and and, and how, as you noticeit, it's really working hard to
make sure you're not feelingthat abandonment right, or, in
(46:33):
other words, it's really makingit hard, making sure that you
don't go back to being thatlittle boy that feels the
abandonment, right, and, as youwere noting, there's sort of a
way through that by just saying,all right, I'm gonna no longer
resist that feeling Like if, ifyou no longer resist the feeling
(46:54):
of abandonment, then thecritics all of a sudden doesn't
have so much of a reason forworking so hard, mm-hmm, right,
and so that's.
the other thing I might offer isto see if you can Really just
be present to that part of youthat's feeling that, and to
(47:14):
allow, allow that feeling to bethere, to welcome that, to Love
on it a little bit.
Right because I think, as wejust touched on here, it feels
like an important Component interms of the pattern, definitely
, yeah, all right.
So, as we just start to get toa close here, kevin, any, any
(47:45):
final thoughts or takeaways youwant to close out here with?
Kevin Lee (47:52):
Yeah, I think the well, my biggest takeaway is the
.
The founder journey is just aconstant shedding of identities
and, you know, each time youbuild that new identity, it's
(48:12):
actually so important to just,you know, go through the
practice of Loving yourself, youknow to, before you adopt that
new identity, or else there'sjust you'll feel like you're a,
you feel like you're wearing acostume, you know you're not
forever feel that impostersyndrome or whatever it is.
You feel because you haven'tdone the fundamental groundwork
to Feel secure under that newidentity, that new layer of
(48:36):
identity.
And so I don't know, I guessI've never like visualized it
like that before and I think itwas nice to do that because,
yeah, you know, I know I can gowork on the habits that it takes
to Again reframe and, you know,adopt that new identity and,
(48:58):
and, yeah, just continueevolving as a leader.
Yeah, I love that part aboutthe costume.
Brian Wang (49:02):
Costumes can be taken off also.
Right, they recognize thatthey're not you.
All right, Kevin it was apleasure to be with you today.
Same thanks for having me.
Kevin Lee (49:12):
This is great, you well See you.
Brian Wang (49:18):
What started as a conversation about leadership
turned into an exploration aboutthe feelings that we
subconsciously try to avoid.
It turns out with Kevin thatholding on to individual
contributor work is a strategyto avoid feelings of abandonment
.
But as he welcomed that morevulnerable part of himself, he
found an opening for a newperspective, one that is less
about how others view him andmore about appreciation from
(49:38):
within, and through that he canstart to more fully embrace his
role as a leader.
So often, what's getting in ourway is not about knowledge or
tactics.
It's about the relationshipthat we have with ourselves.
Take a moment to ask yourselfwhere am I allowing my
unacknowledged fears to get inthe way of my business?
(49:59):
Thank you for listening toslowdown to speed up.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please rate it in your favorite
podcasting app.
If you are a founder who wouldlike help in reaching the next
level through coaching, or ifyou'd like to come on the show,
please contact me atdashingleadership.
com.
Welcome to Slow Down , to Speed Up.
I'm Brian Wang, an executivecoach who helps startup founders
grow by working through theirbiggest challenges.
On this show, I sit down withfounders for a one-time coaching
session where you will hearthings my guests never say
elsewhere, because they'reworking through real life
current leadership issues.
When we struggle, we're oftentempted to find a quick solution
(00:22):
, and sometimes that's all weneed.
But when we're findingourselves stuck in those really
tricky recurring problems,that's when it's time to slow
down, because breaking throughto the next level requires us to
examine what patterns may beholding us back and what new
perspective might be called for.
I ask everyone who comes hereto dig deep and trust that
(00:42):
through this work, they willdiscover something new about
themselves and how to moveforward with their business.
I hope you find somethingvaluable in what you hear today
for your own journey.
In today's session, I work withKevin Lee, co-founder and CEO of
Imi, which makes the world'shealthiest ramen noodles.
Together we explore a commonchallenge making the leap from
(01:04):
individual contributor to leader.
It's worth noting that Kevin'sbeen actively working on this
issue for some time.
He's made a lot of progress asImi has grown, but he still
struggles and he senses it'sbecause of some deeper reason.
We start by looking at hisbelief that earning the respect
of his team means being in thetrenches with them, by making
his work visible, valuable andobvious for all to see.
(01:24):
What Kevin eventually realizesis that all of this comes down
to deeper fears and insecuritiesthat, if left unaddressed, will
wreak havoc on his business.
Okay, let's listen in.
Hey, kevin, good to see you,man, good to see you too.
It's been a while.
Yeah, it's been a little while.
I'm excited to get into anothersession with you today and I
(01:46):
just want to hand it off to youand just ask you, kevin, as
you're coming into our sessionand a conversation, what are you
bringing in that you want totake a look at right now?
Kevin Lee (01:56):
I think that for today's topic I'd love to
discuss something that's beentop of mind recently and
probably has been top of mindfor the past six months to a
year now.
Imi has grown, partially thanksto a lot of your help over the
past few years, to a team ofaround 15 people now.
(02:20):
We do have some part-time folks,of course, outside of that, but
15 full-time, and one of theproblems I continue facing as a
leader is learning how to stopmyself from continuing to want
to do individual contributorlevel work as a way to both
(02:45):
fulfill, I would say maybe justa personal need of, you know,
wanting to build things whenthey're ground up.
But if I were more self-aware,it feels like why I'm doing a
lot of the individualcontributor work still is, I
feel, this incessant need toearn the respect of my org and
(03:06):
just the team in general.
Part of that stems from thefact that my co-founder, k-chan,
and I really had to doeverything with just the two of
us for the first few yearsbefore we even hired our first
team member.
So there is kind of a ingrainedhabit there.
But I'd love to dig deeper intowhy I can't seem to let go and
(03:32):
spend more time, delegating,managing the team, enabling the
team to succeed, versus jumpingin and wanting to do the
individual level, individualcontributor level work.
Brian Wang (03:43):
Yeah, yeah, totally, and this is a topic that you
and I have touched on before.
Right it's.
It's something that I think alot of people struggle with when
they're when they're going fromIC to leader or maker to
manager, that that transition, Ithink, is notoriously difficult
, and so I guess, given the factthat it's an issue that you've
(04:06):
been aware of for a while andyou have really worked on, I'm
curious, you know, if you wereto just spend a few minutes,
even like, like theorizing as towhy it's been such a struggle
for you.
I'm curious how you describe it.
Kevin Lee (04:26):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think that there was probablya phase one of this issue which
was, like you described, thethe typical issue from maker to
manager, where I did struggle inthe early days with delegating,
letting go, and then that nolonger became an issue,
especially as we group past 10team members, as we all brought
(04:49):
on, for example, our own youknow, even our own executive
assistants for each team member.
You know we teach delegationpretty heavily, even at Emmy
when, during onboarding.
However, I think there was aphase two where, beyond just the
maker to manager transition, Inoticed that there was again
something even deeper rootedwhich was this yeah, I could.
(05:12):
I don't know if it's a peoplepleasing tendency, I don't know
if it's a immigrant upbringingtype situation, but there
definitely was this need to showmy org.
Hey, look, guys like I can dothe work too alongside you.
And we're in the trenchestogether and, you know, I maybe,
(05:34):
my, maybe it's a leadership ormanagement style where I have to
almost like be in the weedswith you guys so that you feel
like I'm there beside you,versus just some manager who has
lost touch with reality and,yeah, no longer understands how
to actually even do the work.
And this has been a constantinsecurity of mine, even before
(05:58):
becoming a founder.
I recall when I was working aseven a product manager in tech,
I always felt this need that Ihad to be the one learning how
to design or code so that Icould do the work equally well
as well as my fellow engineer ordesigner, even though that that
wasn't clear the case, but surethere was.
(06:19):
Just that there was this needto again be in the trenches with
the folks to earn their respect.
Brian Wang (06:24):
Quote-unquote yeah, yeah, so let's, let's go there
for a moment then.
So you said that you can noticeyourself almost, go and
communicate to the team.
Hey guys, I'm one of you, I'mwith you, I'm in the trenches, I
can do this alongside you, andyou link that to respect.
(06:46):
So tell me about what the linkthere is between being worthy of
respect and this way of showingup, as I can get my hands dirty
too like what's the link therefor you?
Kevin Lee (07:05):
I think the link perhaps comes from my own
experiences working in my careerprior to being, prior to
starting in me, where I mighthave a particular bias for the
managers I always enjoyedworking with.
(07:26):
But the managers I love workingwith could do the work that I
did, often even doing it betterthan I ever could, and it was
through watching them that Itruly felt wow, you know, you,
you could do my work, but you'renot because you're managing me.
Therefore, I need to step it upas as your direct report, and I
(07:48):
think there was something thattransferred over, you know,
especially when I became aleader here at Imi, where I felt
that I had to embody that samerole model mentality that I
myself cherished when I wasworking in the tech industry so
cool.
Brian Wang (08:07):
Let me, let me bounce that back.
So in your past working historywith managers, when they would
come in and really activelydemonstrate that they could do
the job the same job and maybeeven better that to you it felt
like it sounded like it actuallyraised the stakes for you in
(08:28):
some sense.
If I heard it correctly, it'slike okay, like I'm gonna, I'm
gonna call your manager Bob forokay, manager Bob, okay.
So manager Bob comes in.
It's like, hey, kevin, you'reworking on this thing, and he
just goes and just activelyshows you he can do it ten times
better, you know.
And but you also sit with theknowledge that he's not going
(08:51):
and doing the work, he'smanaging you.
So there you are feeling like,ah, he's, bob is watching me, he
knows how to do this job well,I'd really better, I really have
to show up and do it as well,if not better, than Bob.
We're getting somewhere closeto it and so before like, let's,
(09:12):
we'll spend more time on that.
But what I'm hearing from thatis that was motivating to you in
some way and it also made youlook at Bob in a certain way,
and then the hope is that thatsort of translates similarly to
your team am I?
Am I describing it correctly?
Kevin Lee (09:32):
that is definitely correct.
I think there's.
That is that's what I thinkabout.
And even though people alwayssay, hey, there's plenty of role
models in different industries,there's sports coaches who
never played, you know,professional sports, who are
able to coach a team intowinning championships.
And then, on the other side ofthe spectrum, you have folks
like I don't know an Elon Muskwho can get down into the weeds
(09:55):
of rocket science and banterwith the engineers as if he was
a fellow rocket scientist.
Yes, I see both sides of thespectrums.
For some reason, I seem togravitate more towards the Elon
Musk side of things, more sothan the coaches never played
the professional sport, eventhough I know both work.
Brian Wang (10:12):
Sure, that might just be an insecurity of mine
okay, so let me ask a dumbquestion what makes it a problem
that you're leaning towardsthat these days?
Kevin Lee (10:24):
I think the problem is that I find myself here's a
small example At Emmy we runmarketing sprint planning
because we have now five membersin the marketing team,
including myself, and we're alldifferent, doing different work
streams.
Some are perhaps evenoverlapping, and we just need to
(10:44):
make sure that in every sprintcycle we're not accidentally
again overlapping too much ofthe work.
And I really should just beoverseeing that sprint planning
process because a lot of theprojects that come up are
individual contributor work.
But I find myself volunteeringto take over projects or tasks
(11:06):
just because I feel guilty if Iam the one walking away from
that sprint with the fewestamount of tasks in my swim lane.
Brian Wang (11:17):
And this is a situation just to clarify.
This is a situation whereothers could theoretically take
those on Correct.
See, it's not a case where it'slike, oh man, we just, we don't
have the capacity.
It's like, you know, it'sreally this guilt thing rather
than whoa, where everyone'soverextended, kevin's gotta step
it up.
Is that kind of what we'retalking about?
Kevin Lee (11:35):
I think it's probably 50, maybe 60%.
Guilt 40%.
Oh, that does sound exciting tome.
But then I start to question oh, should I even be excited about
it?
Versus, should I just delegate,you know, enable other team
members to take it on, yeah, andyeah, so there's this.
Brian Wang (11:55):
Well, it's interesting because I hear I
asked you the question, whatmakes it a problem?
And you noted how one of theproblems quote unquote is that
you have this sensation of guiltaround you know, not having,
you know, some work from thesprint, and also there's some
(12:16):
genuine excitement.
So I hear there's like athere's some positive attractor
there.
Kevin Lee (12:22):
If we were to look at the team, though, like what is
the problem for the team, if any, right now, as you're touching
this, I think one problem isthat if I develop a habit of
consistently wanting to pick uptasks or projects every single
sprint, I'm going to overloadmyself doing a lot of this
individual contributor workversus spending time as a leader
(12:45):
doing what a leader should,which I think we've spoken about
.
You know when I won't reiterateall the things like making sure
that people are, you know, theright people on the bus, setting
the vision, setting the rightgoals, giving people resources
all that stuff is going tofalter with every second that I
spend trying to spin up some newproject or task myself, and the
(13:08):
other thing that happens is I'malso taking away an opportunity
for other team members to learnthat particular project or task
, just because I feel I'mqualified and it's fun for me
and something I want to pick up.
So I think there's a two-foldissue here that's happening.
Yeah, yeah that.
(13:30):
I'm trying to learn to let go of.
Brian Wang (13:32):
Right, okay, so there's the opportunity cost.
There's like, oh there's, I'mtaking away from my direct
leadership influence on the teamwhen I'm loading myself with IC
work and I'm also in some waysrobbing people the opportunity
to grow and learn and excel whenI take on some of those
(13:55):
projects as well.
So we'll probably come back tothe guilt thing.
That feels important, but Iwonder if we can turn our
attention toward the team fornow.
So when you pause and youreally consider what would be
most of service to the teamright In this current phase of
(14:18):
life for me and where you'regoing, describe for me what they
really need from you.
Kevin Lee (14:26):
Yeah, that's an excellent question.
I think that the team right now, the stage that we're at, the
most important thing is and thisis like the logical side of me
talking out loud so it issetting the direction in which
(14:47):
the team needs to move towards,which oftentimes comes down to
providing the goals.
We do OKR planning.
So that usually means I justneed to provide them with the
objective, and the team shouldthen be able to figure out their
own key results as well as theprojects to achieve those key
results.
Outside of that, the mostimportant thing is what I call
(15:09):
you know, when you think ofmanagement.
It's ensuring that they havethe right resources to
accomplish those key results andobjectives, as well as
unblocking them.
So helping to figure out whereI can insert myself for, again,
provide resources to helpunblock them.
And then the third I would sayis pushing them in ways that
(15:32):
they may not push themselvesright.
It's like believing in someonemore than they would believe in
themselves.
Yeah, I think those areprobably the.
I think there were fourelements there that I know would
be the most beneficial to theteam members.
Yeah, and again, yeah, I thinkdoing individual contributor
work takes away from those fouritems.
Brian Wang (15:52):
Got it Okay.
So there's the setting the goal, envision the direction broadly
.
There's the unblocking makingsure people have sufficient
resources, clarity, et cetera.
And there's the pushing.
There's this sort of dynamicwhere of hey, I know that
there's more for you, you havegreater potential than where you
(16:14):
are now.
Let me push you toward that,yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I'm wondering, as you'reconnecting with those items you
mentioned this as the kind ofintellectual answer as you're
connecting with those particularresponsibilities what do you
notice?
You start to feel.
Kevin Lee (16:34):
I feel that the four items I listed are almost just
management woo-woo talk, whichis hilarious because it's like
every book you read, everyoneyou talk to, they all say those
same four things.
Yet when I think of those, I'mlike, okay, yeah, of course
(16:54):
we're gonna give you like anobjective, but that's one.
What is that?
Like a one week, two weeks outof like the quarter that you're
doing that kind of thinking, andof course, I'm going to help
unblock you or push you a littlebit harder.
Make sure you have enoughresources.
We do that during theone-on-ones, but is that 24
seven of my time?
(17:15):
No, therefore, am I supposed tojust sit around during the
times?
I'm not doing those things?
And I think that's probablywhere that guilt kicks in,
because I'm thinking God, thatsounds like management talk
versus let's all move, let's allgo in the same direction, like
I want to.
Brian Wang (17:34):
Again, I want to be there building with you.
So when you say, okay,interesting.
So when you say woo-woo andjust hear you describe it, it
sounds like it's almost likeyou're skeptical of it in some
sense.
Or it's like, yeah, like I know, like that's what you're
supposed to do, but that can'treally take up all of my time,
(17:55):
right?
Is that all that I have to do?
And then there's, like this,the remainder of your time
working.
You're sort of left to wonder,like what else do I do with my
energy Is kind of what I'mpicking up here.
Kevin Lee (18:10):
That's what it feels like and again, the logical side
of me could always rationalizelike, oh, maybe that means I
need to better prioritize what Ispend my personal time doing,
doing things the rest of theteam can't do with partnerships
or BD, and maybe it's a matterof prioritization.
But yeah, I think deep down Ineed to unblock or remove that
(18:35):
negative story I have around themanagement woo-woo piece
because that's probably holdingme back as a leader, if I had to
guess.
Brian Wang (18:44):
Okay, so what's that negative story that you have of
it?
If you were just to describe itin a few sentences?
Kevin Lee (18:52):
I think the negative story is, having worked a decade
in the tech industry at mid tolarge to you know, hyperscale
companies and seeing middlemanagement that feels more like
bureaucracy than actuallyhelping push the organization
(19:15):
forward.
And when you see that kind ofbloat, you can't help but feel
that sometimes managers don'treally do anything and I don't
ever wanna be a manager likethat.
I want the team.
You know people say what is it?
They say servant leadership.
I don't even know if that's theright term here, where it's
(19:37):
like.
I've always interpreted it asas like you are doing the work
with the team.
You are the servant of the teamin a way, and maybe that's just
something I've tried to adoptor the mentality.
Maybe I don't even have thedefinition right.
I need to figure it out.
But yeah, I think that's wherethat comes from.
Brian Wang (19:56):
So you have this direct experience of management
as like a bloated function.
Kevin Lee (20:02):
Yes, and To be fair, I was a lot more junior then, so
there are probably many thingsI didn't see that management was
doing.
Maybe they were shielding usfrom, I don't even know.
Like I think, the later I getin my career, the more I start
to realize how naive I wasearlier in my career.
(20:22):
Sure, so I'm trying to have theempathy, but it is hard to
unsee those things.
Brian Wang (20:29):
What that sort of brings up to me is, in a lot of
ways, there's this invisiblework that leaders and managers
do, and then there's theperception that the teams that
they lead have of the leader,right.
So, no matter what people aregonna form opinions of you, and
(20:55):
it's almost guaranteed thatthose opinions are not gonna be
like a full reflection ofreality, because that's just the
way humans work, like we don'tcontain all of the truth of
everything.
It's all subjective.
And so the reason it's comingup for me is because I'm hearing
you reflect on how it felt backthen.
There was like this naivete,and then how it feels now.
(21:16):
It's like, oh, you have thisknowledge that not everything a
leader is doing might be soobvious to a team, right?
And so I wonder, like, to whatextent this is you needing to
(21:37):
make your work obvious?
to the team.
Kevin Lee (21:41):
There is a.
Actually I've never heard aphrase like that and I think the
moment you said that itdefinitely did resonate a little
bit.
It was definitely that oh, I'mtrying to make it obvious to you
that I am delivering valueversus being this middle manager
who's just like sitting in thebackground overseeing the work
(22:03):
quote unquote and not reallytruly feeling like I'm
delivering value to you.
Brian Wang (22:09):
So Well, but there's a linkage there that I'm
hearing.
There's like delivering realvalue is linked to it being
obvious, yes, right.
And so I wanna maybe use ananalogy here.
People talk about behind thescenes, right?
(22:30):
They often when some amazingwork has been created.
People also give credit topeople who are behind the scenes
, and we understand that behindthe scenes individuals are not
in a spotlight, right, and partof the reason people thank them
explicitly is because they'renot getting recognition.
Like it would be easy to forgetabout them.
(22:52):
And so I wanna sort of likeplay with that idea.
Like, because we know thatthose people behind the scenes
are essential, right, they'redoing incredibly important work
on a film set.
There's, just, like, so manypeople who are doing essential
work that were not for them, thefilm would never get created,
right, so we know that they'reproviding some real value there.
(23:12):
So I'm sort of wondering if wecan play with that analogy.
What if it were possible foryou to know you were really
providing this behind the sceneswork, or invisible work,
whatever you wanna call it,without it having to be obvious
from the outside or even to theteam per se?
(23:32):
What if it were possible foryou to just sit knowing I am
really aiding this team, andthey may not even know a lot of
the ways in which I'm doing thaton the surface.
Kevin Lee (23:47):
I mean I would love for that to happen.
I think part of that almostfeels like I just have to learn
to value myself and the workthat I am doing, without needing
the external validation from ateam member or direct report
saying, hey, kevin, you're doinga great job, all the stuff
you're doing to help manage mehas really helped unblock me,
(24:10):
like short of them directlysaying that I just need to feel
that level of confidence and Idon't think I'm there yet Okay.
Brian Wang (24:16):
so let's pause there , because I think what you're
touching on feels reallyimportant.
So can you just say more aboutthe piece where, like, I need to
value myself more here?
Kevin Lee (24:30):
I think that a lot of times, what you said around,
like a lot of leaders do a lotof work behind the scenes, they
don't get credit for it andthat's okay.
I'd like to hope that that isthe case for me and the team.
I'd like to hope that everyonefeels equally that I care about
them as a manager, I truly careabout their development, and I
(24:55):
don't actually I don't need themto tell me that, right, I think
I just inherently like that'sthe type I want to mentor them,
help them grow, yeah, at thesame time.
Brian Wang (25:06):
But there is a part that does wanna hear that True?
Kevin Lee (25:09):
yes, I think from just like a basic human ego.
Yes, of course, it would benice to hear that too.
Also, as like the feedback loop, to know you are doing a like,
you wanna make sure you arepointing them in the right
direction, you are doing a job.
So, yes, there's probably waysI can solicit that kind of
feedback.
Maybe I just need to do it alittle bit more actively during
one-on-ones.
Brian Wang (25:32):
Well.
So I wanna maybe comment onthat.
So I think you could do that.
You could go and speak to yourteam in a way where maybe it
opens up more of an opportunityfor them to give you positive
feedback and I think positivefeedback is fantastic.
(25:53):
But I'm more curious about sortof how you're relating to the
need itself.
So let me try to be a littlebit clear about what I mean,
Because what I'm hearing in thisconversation, Kevin, is that
you notice the desire to receivepraise from others, and we
(26:17):
might even agree that thatdesire to receive praise from
others is part of the quote,quote, quote, quote problem,
Like it's part of what's drivingyou to kind of do the IC work
right.
Or the flip side to that is theguilt right.
If I don't have that work, icwork then I must have done
(26:39):
something wrong or I'm not gonnaget the praise I want.
There are multiple angles thereso that all feels like it goes
back to this thing where I needto value myself Like what does
that mean to you?
Hmm.
Kevin Lee (27:00):
This is gonna be a much longer session.
I was like if we could probablygo into childhood upbringing
and the desire to need thatvalidation from the immigrant
parents.
There's probably a lot of deeprooted things here that are
leading to this type of thinking.
Gosh, I'm trying to figure outwhere to even go, given how
(27:26):
massive this could be if we weretrying to dig deeper.
Brian Wang (27:29):
Well, let's tune into where you are in this
present moment, this now moment.
So how much can you valueyourself right now?
How much can you love yourselfright now?
Like how present are you tothat?
Kevin Lee (27:48):
I mean, I think that's the gap really is.
Clearly I am not valuing myselfand the effort that I put into
caring about the team and I'dlike to think the team knows
that I truly do put a lot ofeffort into working with them
(28:11):
and managing them but there's,like this self criticism that's
clearly happening Even in theway.
I think I even started thisconversation where I said I'm
doing this individual work andit's because I don't really
value the managerial work thatI'm doing.
I'm calling it woo, woo, Right,like there's.
It's almost like I'mintentionally putting that
(28:32):
criticism so that I have ahigher bar for myself constantly
.
So I'll keep raising my own barover and over.
Brian Wang (28:39):
I never want to actually hit the bar, so how
much does that internal criticprevent you from feeling
valuable?
Kevin Lee (28:55):
Oh a lot.
I think that it.
I think it's no different thanthe founders I listened to who
tell themselves oh, I don't wantto let go of my chip on my
shoulder through therapy,because then I'll lose my drive.
I think that's exactly what'shappening here, as I think, now
that I'm speaking out loud, it'slike yeah, I feel that as a
(29:15):
manager, I'm unwilling to acceptthe role that I should be
playing so that I can maintainthis chip on the shoulder, that
I need to up level myself as amanager even further, but
instead I'm then resorting tothe wrong responsibilities and,
(29:39):
yeah, clearly it's holding meback as a leader.
Brian Wang (29:42):
Sure, yeah.
So I wonder if you can see ifyou can actually move a little
bit closer to that criticinternally, so see if you can
notice how it sits in yoursystem, see if you can grow just
(30:03):
a little more curious about it,Like it's clearly working
really hard and maybe it'sworking in I don't know we could
call it counterproductive waysI use that term lately but I
wonder what happens for you asyou start to move toward it a
little bit and you start towonder, like what is this thing
(30:25):
really trying to do here?
Kevin Lee (30:35):
Well, as I move towards it, the first thing that
I think about is how can Ireimagine this relationship I
have with the concept ofmanagement and the value that
management brings.
(30:55):
And I think it's only if I canlet go of that type of negative
language I just spewed around,management being woo woo If I
can rebuild that relationship,repair that relationship, then I
will truly value myself as amanager.
Or maybe it's the other wayaround.
I think it's the other wayaround.
Brian Wang (31:19):
If you're not valuing yourself, you will
always find some other reason tocriticize the thing that you're
doing.
Kevin Lee (31:24):
Yeah, that's hilarious.
I just defaulted to that.
Okay, well, I got to valuemyself, to then value the skills
or the responsibilities I bringas a manager, which will allow
me to let go of the need toprove myself as an individual
contributor.
Brian Wang (31:48):
So this criticism, or we can imagine the critic
right, this critic as some partof you, what's it worried, will
happen if it stops criticizingyou?
Kevin Lee (32:03):
Oh man, yeah, I just, I guess I don't want to get
complacent, I really don't wantto be the I guess I feel like I
shouldn't be the manager wholoses touch with reality.
Brian Wang (32:17):
If you get complacent and you lose touch,
what happens?
What's the scary thing thathappens?
Kevin Lee (32:24):
The scary thing is that the team loses respect for
me.
They feel like they're nolonger growing or learning,
especially from me.
Abandoned, frankly speaking,because I worry they'll just
jump ship and leave, and thatfear of abandonment is has been
(32:44):
always been a recurring theme.
Brian Wang (32:46):
Yeah, so the critic is really working hard to make
sure you don't have to feelabandoned.
Yes, sounds like it's got agood reason to do that.
Then Abandonment feels reallyscary.
Where do you feel any of thatsense of abandonment right now,
(33:06):
if at all?
Kevin Lee (33:09):
Mostly the heart.
I mean there's yeah, it'sobviously there's there's the
deep rooted things, but there'salso just a sphere of you know,
me and Kchan spent yearsbuilding Amy, starting from
ground up with nothing, and justit's like we don't want to go
back to that.
I don't, like any founder does.
Brian Wang (33:33):
So I wonder if you can just sit with that feeling
though that you were justdescribing, the one in the heart
, the abandonment, the part,that feeling that your system is
working so hard to avoid orresist.
So is it still feel like it'sin the heart and when you, when
(33:56):
it shows up in the body?
Kevin Lee (33:59):
The heart is where it starts, the gut is where it
lands.
When I think of the worst casescenario, it's almost like a
punch in the gut.
Oh my God, the abandonment ishappening.
Brian Wang (34:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So what happens if you justallow that, if you allow
yourself to feel that a littlebit right now?
Kevin Lee (34:29):
Well it it sucks.
But at the same time, as soonas I let it pass, the rational
side of my brain kind of startsto kick in and it starts to
think wow, kevin, that's a,that's a really dumb thought,
that's a that's more criticism.
Yeah, that's true, yeah.
(34:49):
Hmm.
Brian Wang (34:52):
So let's set the intellectual aside for a moment.
Oftentimes, our intellectualintellectualization is just a
way to bypass our feelings.
So so we'll just sit with thesit with the feeling a little
bit longer.
Kevin Lee (35:09):
Yeah, I'm trying to feel my way out of this, that
fear of abandonment it's.
It almost feels like the onlyway out of it is to rationalize
it through the, through theintellectual.
Brian Wang (35:24):
Yeah, that's.
That's often how painfulfeelings work, right?
They're so intolerable like wewant to find a way out by
mentalizing, intellectualizing.
But what happens if you justcheck in with the feeling,
though like to like, really notabandon it, to stay with it.
Kevin Lee (35:55):
It doesn't feel too bad to just feel it all the way
through, realize that thisfeeling could happen someday and
that's okay.
Yeah, I guess it's it's.
(36:17):
Maybe most of the internalstruggle is like not wanting to
feel these feelings andtherefore you do whatever it
takes to not feel it, versusjust feel it all the way through
and then it kind of just passes.
Brian Wang (36:37):
How old is the feeling Like, like?
If you were to say like, howold is the kid that felt that
feeling?
Kevin Lee (36:55):
Very, very young.
You know very much, very muchthe.
You know the young I don't evenknow how old you know being
disciplined by the immigrantparents, and whether it's for
(37:15):
something academic, andbelieving that they'll leave you
or you'll be left if you don'tperform Up to the standard that
is required.
Brian Wang (37:29):
That's a really harsh way for a child to be
treated.
Kevin Lee (37:34):
It is, it is very common, very common, I think.
First gen immigrant story.
Brian Wang (37:42):
Or just most yeah yeah.
So, of course, you know how dowe have more time we could get
into the intergenerationalcomponent of this.
Let me ask you this, kevin,just like as you're in touch
with that part that that thatyoung kid who got treated
(38:03):
harshly or was had the fear ofabandonment if they didn't, you
know, perform, what did it needthen that it didn't get?
Kevin Lee (38:18):
I think that the discipline could have come in a
different form.
Yes, of course I'll caveat, youknow, parents don't?
It's their first rodeo, theydon't know how to do a lot of
this stuff and I definitelydon't fault them at all for it.
I think I think, if I thinkabout how I'm going to raise you
(38:39):
know, my wife and I are goingto raise our own child there is
a type of discipline that cancome through love, that can
reassure the child, and I think,like we're always going to be
here for you, regardless of whathappens in the situation.
(39:00):
You know, we're just trying towork through this problem
together and I think when youprovide that level of foundation
to any child, they don't haveany insecurities or gaps or
holes in their heart that couldcause them to then, you know,
lash out or grow up.
You know grow in certain ways.
That's my philosophy anyways.
(39:26):
So I think so, yeah, it's yeah.
Brian Wang (39:29):
Yeah, I want to invite you just to give yourself
that, or give that that youngboy that, right now, that
reassurance that you'll be thereno matter what.
Kevin Lee (39:54):
Yeah, there's a there's a vicious cycle and I
think I do think, if we had moretime, there's something to go
into here.
I think there's this element ofyou know, I feel confident
telling that young boy that it'sgoing to be okay, because I
feel extremely self reliantbecause of this feeling of this
(40:16):
chip on the shoulder that Inever wanted to be abandoned and
therefore I was going to dowhatever it takes to get to a
point where you know that Iwould never feel abandoned by
anyone, because I could rely onmyself.
And I think there's this likethere's that perpetuating cycle
of that chip on the shoulderthat the that founders talk
about, and it's going to take alot of deep work to To unlearn
(40:37):
that and work on that piece.
But I have to admit it's notsomething that can be done, I
think, in this short session,which is you know why have all
is appreciated our sessionstogether?
Because this is something Iknow we've worked on for years
self-reliance.
Brian Wang (40:53):
You know it can be a superpower Until it starts to
get in the way of something else.
Yeah, but yeah, I guess, justto reflect on what you said, I
think, even with all of the Like, the wounding that caused you
(41:15):
to have to be so self-reliant,there's no need to take any of
that away.
You present day adult Kevin,can still provide that you're
gonna version of yourself, thatpromise of being with it.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly as you are today.
There's no need to change thatright.
(41:36):
What does that bring up for youI?
Kevin Lee (41:51):
Definitely think that's possible and there are
many role models that I followwho have also done the inner
worked To come to that samerealization that you just called
out and their inner drive comesfrom somewhere much More
(42:13):
healthy and everlasting, versus.
You know the drive that perhapsI'm moving off of right now,
but I definitely think it'spossible because I've seen it be
possible In again in the rolemodels, some of the role models
I follow.
So it is just going to be anongoing practice of Call itself
(42:37):
love or gratitude.
You know, filling that, fillingthose gaps in the, in the, in
the holes of the heart, thatthat I think every adult needs
to work on.
Hmm yeah.
Brian Wang (42:54):
So We'll start to run out of time here, so maybe
we can start to close you weretouching on this already just
now, kevin Kind of further work,so Maybe we can consider some
ways you can extend it.
So I'll just start with you,like, I guess, as you Reflect a
(43:19):
bit on on what we've explored,what might feel, what might feel
valuable for you to continue topractice or to experiment with
here.
Kevin Lee (43:30):
Well, I think one thing that came top of mine was
you calling out something aroundlike wanting to make my work
obvious it it did triggersomething for me, which is it's
not that I need to make my workor it's a if for me.
I think what I need to do isnot make my work obvious to the
team, but make the work obviousto myself, and the way to do
(43:51):
that, I believe, is, for example, I do my weekly reflections
every Saturday morning, where Ihave this notion template I fill
out.
I think I need to add a sectionfor myself where I'm Literally
writing like this is what youdid as a manager this week, and
here is why it was awesome orwhy it was.
You know you are, why I amsuper proud of that work, and
(44:12):
I'm just going to write all thethings I did, and it can be
something as small as you know.
Hey, this team member had thisproblem and I helped him work
through it and there wasn't anytangible output, but clearly it
was a mental unlock or an ahamoment for them, and I think the
more I write these things down,the more I'll retrain my
relationship with you know whata manager does and why it's
(44:35):
beneficial, and I'll start tofigure out why it's beneficial,
and I'll start to feel Moresecure and happier and maybe
even just proud of myself fordoing the work that I do, and
that'll let me finally let go ofAnything that's not managerial
work.
So that's, that's probably themost tangible thing I can think
of right now, something that'simmediately actionable, because
(44:57):
I already have a habit and Ijust need to add a little bit to
that habit.
Brian Wang (45:01):
Yeah, I love that and I think that there's so much
in what you just shared,because I think there is a
Progressive Building of evidenceof, hey, I am doing great work
as a manager.
Here's the evidence and I canstart to craft a new Story or
identity around it.
(45:21):
Right, I know what my identityas an excellent, I see, looks
and feels like this is thisRelatively new one that doesn't
quite feel stable, it feels alittle scary, and so just to
even just take the time to Lookback, reflect on it, document it
(45:41):
appreciate it Feels like itstarts to sort of train your
brain a little bit.
It's like, hey, like there issomething to be appreciated here
, right, if you sort of take thetime to do it.
Kevin Lee (45:54):
Definitely it's.
It's exactly that.
It's reframing my identityentirely, which I think is like
the most fundamental part ofhabit building too.
Brian Wang (46:07):
Yeah, and so the other thing maybe just to touch
on is, you know we talked abouthow there's this really strong
inner critic, which I mean somany of us struggle with, right
and and, and how, as you noticeit, it's really working hard to
make sure you're not feelingthat abandonment right, or, in
(46:33):
other words, it's really makingit hard, making sure that you
don't go back to being thatlittle boy that feels the
abandonment, right, and, as youwere noting, there's sort of a
way through that by just saying,all right, I'm gonna no longer
resist that feeling Like if, ifyou no longer resist the feeling
(46:54):
of abandonment, then thecritics all of a sudden doesn't
have so much of a reason forworking so hard, mm-hmm, right,
and so that's.
the other thing I might offer isto see if you can Really just
be present to that part of youthat's feeling that, and to
(47:14):
allow, allow that feeling to bethere, to welcome that, to Love
on it a little bit.
Right because I think, as wejust touched on here, it feels
like an important Component interms of the pattern, definitely
, yeah, all right.
So, as we just start to get toa close here, kevin, any, any
(47:45):
final thoughts or takeaways youwant to close out here with?
Kevin Lee (47:52):
Yeah, I think the well, my biggest takeaway is the
.
The founder journey is just aconstant shedding of identities
and, you know, each time youbuild that new identity, it's
(48:12):
actually so important to just,you know, go through the
practice of Loving yourself, youknow to, before you adopt that
new identity, or else there'sjust you'll feel like you're a,
you feel like you're wearing acostume, you know you're not
forever feel that impostersyndrome or whatever it is.
You feel because you haven'tdone the fundamental groundwork
to Feel secure under that newidentity, that new layer of
(48:36):
identity.
And so I don't know, I guessI've never like visualized it
like that before and I think itwas nice to do that because,
yeah, you know, I know I can gowork on the habits that it takes
to Again reframe and, you know,adopt that new identity and,
(48:58):
and, yeah, just continueevolving as a leader.
Yeah, I love that part aboutthe costume.
Brian Wang (49:02):
Costumes can be taken off also.
Right, they recognize thatthey're not you.
All right, Kevin it was apleasure to be with you today.
Same thanks for having me.
Kevin Lee (49:12):
This is great, you well See you.
Brian Wang (49:18):
What started as a conversation about leadership
turned into an exploration aboutthe feelings that we
subconsciously try to avoid.
It turns out with Kevin thatholding on to individual
contributor work is a strategyto avoid feelings of abandonment
.
But as he welcomed that morevulnerable part of himself, he
found an opening for a newperspective, one that is less
about how others view him andmore about appreciation from
(49:38):
within, and through that he canstart to more fully embrace his
role as a leader.
So often, what's getting in ourway is not about knowledge or
tactics.
It's about the relationshipthat we have with ourselves.
Take a moment to ask yourselfwhere am I allowing my
unacknowledged fears to get inthe way of my business?
(49:59):
Thank you for listening toslowdown to speed up.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please rate it in your favorite
podcasting app.
If you are a founder who wouldlike help in reaching the next
level through coaching, or ifyou'd like to come on the show,
please contact me atdashingleadership.
com.
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