February 5, 2024 • 65 mins
Are you grappling with how to drive your team forward without coming off as a jerk? How do you balance accountability with empathy? In this coaching session, I go deep with Erik Dunteman, CEO and co-founder of Banana, as we tackle these burning questions. The journey into leadership isn’t just about strategies; it’s an invitation to confront our fears, embrace vulnerability, and overcome the inner barriers that hold us back.
Erik opens up about his struggle to shift from doing to leading, his fear of negative perception, and the quest for authentic leadership. Our conversation arrives at an unexpected breakthrough for Erik that allows him to show up in a more authentic and empowered way to his team.
Watch the entire video on YouTube.
Enjoyed this episode? Ready to take your leadership and personal growth to the next level? Please visit my website to learn more about coaching with me.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Wang (00:01):
Welcome to Slow Down , to Speed Up.
I'm Brian Wang, an executivecoach who helps founders grow by
working through their biggestchallenges.
On this show, we have realone-time coaching sessions where
you will hear things my clientsnever say elsewhere because
they're working through currentlive issues.
I ask everyone who comes on theshow to dig deep and trust that
by the end they will learnsomething about themselves and
(00:23):
how to move forward in theirbusiness.
On today's session, I work withEric Dunnman, ceo and
co-founder of a company calledBanana.
This question is how do I bringmore intensity and
accountability to my teamwithout being an asshole?
What's really interesting aboutthis session is that, rather
than just talk about the problem, I push Eric to go directly
into the experience that he'strying to avoid.
What results is a set ofvisceral reactions that actually
(00:46):
contain lots of usefulinformation for Eric, and as I
help him process through thosereactions, he arrives at a
breakthrough, and on the otherside of that breakthrough, he
starts to see new possibilitiesin the way he shows up to his
team.
So if you're someone whostruggles with pushing others
productively, this episode isfor you.
Let's listen in.
Erik Dunteman (01:05):
It's been a stressful period for Banana.
For me, the biggest one that'stop of mind is figuring out how
to be more of a leader and lessof an individual contributor.
I see, I find my comfort zoneis definitely just tucking away
(01:26):
and doing code, and at times theteam needs that.
But at times the team needsthat extra direction, extra
belief that they're going in theright direction, and I think
that ultimately comes down to meand I've failed at this in the
past.
So I think now is the time tofigure this out.
(01:47):
It seems pretty existential.
Brian Wang (01:50):
Yeah.
So even just listening to youdescribe it at first, it sounds
like there are a few examplesthat are springing up to mind
for you.
As you're bringing it up andyou're talking about the shift
of becoming a leader, I guess,before we even get into any
specific examples, I'm curious,I'm wondering if you can expand
on the distinction a little bit.
For me, like in your mind, whatdoes it mean to show up as a
(02:11):
leader versus just kind ofshowing up as an IC for your
team?
Erik Dunteman (02:13):
Yeah, I think it'd be easier to conflate with
the whole more like productmanager person who manages tasks
on a board, and that's less ofthe energy I'm trying to bring
in.
I think it's more eliminatingany sort of ambiguity around why
(02:34):
we're doing what we're doing,because I think engineering
output is what matters the mostright now for the team In
engineer who's not 100%confident that what they're
doing is impactful is stuck notat 90% or 80%, but they're at
(02:54):
probably 20% capacity.
The magic that happens is whenyou get to such high clarity
that you're just chugging alongand you hit a flow state.
But if you're constantly secondguessing whether or not you're
working on the right thing inthe first place, it's sort of
hard to get into that.
So that's really how I defineleadership in this sense of
(03:14):
giving people the feeling ofbeing part of a unit, having a
very clear direction, having avery clear call it sprint for
the week, but also understandingwhy that's important and how
that helps us in the greaterpicture of things.
Brian Wang (03:36):
Yeah, it sounds like the big theme, or one of the
big themes, is creating clarity.
Why are we doing what we'redoing across multiple Zoom
levels, not just here's whatwe're doing today in today's
standup or the sprint for theweek, but also how does it tie
into the broader picture of whywe're doing all of this at all?
(03:56):
And once you have all of thatin place, when people can come
up or come to work knowing Iknow why I'm doing what I'm
doing and how it fits in, andthat's where things start to
fall into place for you.
It sounds like.
Erik Dunteman (04:11):
Yeah, very much so.
Brian Wang (04:13):
Yeah.
So I'm wondering, as you'respeaking about that, I'm curious
how do you see yourself fittinginto creating that set of
conditions that you'redescribing?
Erik Dunteman (04:27):
I'm a tad biased because I recently listened to a
biography of Julius Caesar.
So I'm thinking about aparticular battle where the
troughs themselves werefaltering, they weren't doing
well, and Julius went to thefront lines and basically
presented himself and basicallysaying hey, this is the final
(04:50):
push, this is the moment thatmatters right now.
Therefore, give it your all.
I wouldn't say that directlytranslates to exactly what we're
doing right now, because it isa longer term battle in our
sense, but I really want to makesure I'm answering your
(05:13):
question here.
I got my mind on Julius Caesar.
Brian Wang (05:18):
Something about him is resonating.
It sounds like.
Erik Dunteman (05:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's ultimately like howdo I show up and continue to put
in the work, still be in thearena, be a leader who's with
the people, but do so in a waythat is strategic, that
communicates to the team, todrop any sort of ambiguity they
(05:46):
may have or like worries or lackof clarity, and know now is the
moment to do X and get thatdone together.
Brian Wang (05:58):
So there's something about being on the ground
that's really important to you,yeah, and is that kind of the IC
impulse that you referencedearlier?
Erik Dunteman (06:08):
Yeah, I definitely have a lot of guilt
being full manager.
I think the team's too small towarrant that and also I don't
want to put myself on a pedestal, and it feels like doing so
would be putting myself on apedestal.
Brian Wang (06:23):
Can you say more about that?
Erik Dunteman (06:26):
Yeah, it's like I don't feel like I deserve it to
be like by rank higher and, ofcourse, like managers.
You got to view it like yourteam members and you can't be
viewed as a hierarchy, thoughironically, the team seems to
crave some sort of leadershipand person to report to.
(06:48):
So I found my natural guiltabout stepping up and being not
just a leader by example but aleader by rank and by power in a
sense.
That feels super weird to me,super wrong to me, and given our
team size we're a full timeteam of six right now it just
(07:13):
doesn't feel appropriate for meto go fully hands off, but I've
also seen signals on the otherend.
Brian Wang (07:19):
Yeah, let's stay with that for a second.
So I want to verify somethingwith you, eric.
So let's just stay for a momentthat you dropped any sort of
guilt or sense of guilt aroundbeing a manager, being a leader,
maybe directing your team onwhat to do and why, and so on,
or telling them hey, let's dropthis X, y, z.
Just hypothetically.
(07:39):
If you dropped all of that fora moment, how would this whole
thing change for you, or howwould it feel?
Erik Dunteman (07:56):
Yeah, I feel like I'd have plenty of one on ones
and not from a.
You know, let's have anorganized meeting, a standing
meeting, every week, but I'dwant to basically put the
(08:17):
completion of said project inthe hands of a team member, say,
hey, this is fully yours.
My job is to be here, help italong, make sure you're
coordinating with the team,offer my services as well If you
need me, as I see you tell?
me to do so because you're theowner of this project, but being
extremely explicit about this,and I think the leadership, in
(08:40):
my sense, wouldn't be around howdoes the project get done?
And be around setting theexpectation that it gets done
and it gets done extremely well.
Brian Wang (08:51):
What I just heard you say is if, if you drop the
guilt, then you wouldeffectively be turning your
teammates into owners and youwould offer yourself to them.
They're the ones who are incharge of bringing these
projects to completion.
Erik Dunteman (09:07):
Did I hear that right?
You heard that right, and theinteresting issue is coming up
for you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, something'sdefinitely coming up.
So I want to turn people intoowners.
I am too polite to hold peopleto their outcomes, so if
somebody's an owner and theyscrew it up, I have yet to
(09:29):
develop the skill to basicallylike you know, I would never
yell at someone If the team isdepending on an owner to get
something done and it doesn'tget done.
Yeah that's as an issue.
That's somebody who's sure nothelping the team's mission.
Brian Wang (09:50):
So let's pause for a second.
So so the way you're describingthat sounds like If I, if I
make people owners, or if I handownership over to my team, I
run the risk of them missing themark.
And then there comes thismoment where I might have to
(10:11):
bring that up or I might have tohold that person accountable
yeah, that's a good word.
And then is that where thisguilt is coming from, this sense
like now, now I have to holdyour feet to the fire, so to
speak.
Erik Dunteman (10:25):
Yeah, yeah, I feel imposing to put that level
of pressure on someone and it'sa lot easier for me emotionally
to take that pressure myselfthan to put it on others.
Brian Wang (10:40):
Yeah.
Erik Dunteman (10:41):
Because the if I put it on others, that requires
me to have a bunch ofuncomfortable conversations.
Brian Wang (10:51):
Yeah, I think, no matter what you're going to end
up in these uncomfortable Con orsituations, it's just that in
the in kind of the status quo,you sort of chosen to be
uncomfortable in a different way, right?
Like you know, I'm going tomaybe take on a bunch of this
stuff myself and and notice thatthere's a mess, but I'm not
(11:14):
going to say anything about it.
You also say it said you know,my team seems to be looking for
guidance and leadership for youknow from me.
But you know that aside, I wantto kind of zoom in on this
thing that I heard you say.
It's like, well, if, if theirowners and they missed the mark,
(11:34):
and then now we have to getuncomfortable, that you use this
word like imposition, like theyare imposing on on these people
.
Now, I think that seems to tiein with what you were referring
to earlier around power, rankand so on, yeah, and so what I'm
curious about is what would itlook like to work with your team
(11:55):
in a way where you're allagreeing that you want results,
right, and you all agree thatmistakes will be made, deadlines
will be missed, right, but thisisn't about you imposing.
This is about everyone wantingto get quality results, like
what is the conversation betweenyou and your team look like
(12:17):
under that condition.
Erik Dunteman (12:21):
We've had similar conversations of sort of why
aren't we doing this like why?
Brian Wang (12:28):
why exactly framed?
Erik Dunteman (12:31):
Why aren't we assuming that everyone on the
team also wants results?
And this is come out, this cameup at our offsite of where
maybe we don't trust that theother person is also aligned on
what the mission is and iswilling to put in hard work and
get into uncomfortablesituations in order to make that
(12:51):
happen.
But we've talked about, like,if you just assume that the
other person is there, I'll say,to win, not in like a zero sum
game sort of way, but they'rethere to win, they're there to
excel at what they do and andsucceeded the mission that we
(13:13):
have.
Sure, if you assume thateverything you communicate,
every tough conversation, is inservice of that outcome, not
contrary to them as a person andthis has been brought up of hey
, why don't you trust us more toreceive that?
Brian Wang (13:32):
That's them to you.
Erik Dunteman (13:34):
Yeah, they're.
They've felt frustrated thatultimately, like if the mission
is not succeeding and youmentioned this before like hard
conversations are going to comeup anyway and if I'm shouldering
the responsibility and notimposing it on the rest of the
team, they'll.
(13:54):
They're still frustrated thatwe're not succeeding in the way
that they want, and what I viewas a service to them of you know
, not imposing ends up being adisappointment, because they're
like I'm here for the mission,I'm not here to feel good, I'm
here because I want to do goodwork.
Brian Wang (14:13):
Right.
Erik Dunteman (14:14):
So, you've.
Brian Wang (14:15):
You've already had some some of this conversation
explicitly, yeah, yeah.
Erik Dunteman (14:21):
And I don't know why it's.
It remains a like, a stickingpoint for me.
Brian Wang (14:27):
Yeah, I just noticed you took a big sigh a second
ago.
What was that about?
Erik Dunteman (14:32):
I just whenever I notice I talk about something
twice.
For me, that's a really badsign.
I didn't act on it in the waythat I should have the first
time Okay, and the fact that sopeople on the team went out of
(14:56):
their way to communicate this tome and I'm here more than a
month later Talking about it, itfeels like I've had a sense of
failure.
I didn't honor the request thatthe team had for me.
Brian Wang (15:16):
Right, right, okay.
So you're feeling some sense offailure, just like in the
moment, real time, here, aswe're touching on this.
Erik Dunteman (15:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I've talked about thisand if it comes up more often
than I'm actually acting on it?
You know I'm more of a talkerthan a doer, which is not the
version of me I want to be.
Brian Wang (15:40):
Yeah, okay, so we're pausing on this very moment.
You, you like noticing yourselfdoing the talking and not the
doing Right, and so, like what'soccurring to you to do from
(16:00):
that, like it sort of seems likeyou're having some feelings
about this because it'simportant to you.
Erik Dunteman (16:09):
Yeah, it's important to me.
I think it's something thatrequires practice to do.
Well, I don't expect myself toget immediately good at it, but
I at least expect myself to showsignificant progress in trying.
And then the next naturalquestion is what's the blocker
(16:32):
in me trying practicing?
What's what's stopping me frompracticing?
Is there anything I could dothere?
And part of it is making sure Icommunicate to the team that I
want to grow in this and youknow having a very clear
dialogue with each one of themof how it's going.
(16:52):
You know encouraging them tosupport me in it.
Now I'm not.
Now I'm wondering if that'seven necessary, Like if that's
just me feeling bad about doingthe thing versus just doing it?
Brian Wang (17:09):
What?
What is, yeah, the?
Let's make it more explicitwhat is doing it.
Look like, like even just asmall tangible version of that.
Erik Dunteman (17:16):
That's a great question.
I don't know what it looks like, so I just be throwing things
at them all.
Yeah, maybe one week comment andjust be way too aggressive.
And you know, wait for peopleto give feedback of, hey, that
was like that was too much.
Right, right, I've.
I've never worked with anamazing manager.
I started, I started being afounder directly after
(17:40):
graduating undergrad.
I had some internships, butit's in very slow moving
companies that you know hadstrict hierarchies and sure,
that's the version of manager Idon't want to be.
But in a startup environment Idon't know what success looks
like on this.
So, yeah, so maybe that'sstarting.
Brian Wang (17:57):
You're starting from a little bit of a disadvantage
there.
Erik Dunteman (18:00):
Yeah, maybe that's why I'm talking about it
more, as I'm trying to form myown definition of what a great
leader looks like, because I'venever seen it.
Brian Wang (18:06):
Right.
Erik Dunteman (18:08):
And yeah, if I were to try it, it would just be
like hey does this work andthen hope people give feedback,
but it's also uncomfortable togive feedback, so you can't 100%
trust that.
So my safe space is to continuetalking about this versus
trying something.
Brian Wang (18:24):
Right, yeah, so let's see if we can maybe walk
toward the edge a little bithere, like the edge of the
discomfort, because, like yousaid, just talk all day about it
.
That feels really safe, butthere's not a lot of doing there
.
So you actually just describeda great example of this, where
(18:46):
you know you're going after itand you get aggressive and then
you came in whoa, that was, thatwas too much.
What do you picture you doing?
Or the way you're showing upthe energy?
Like, what does that look likein your mind, this idea of you
showing up aggressively?
Erik Dunteman (19:08):
I think the ultimate example that people go
to on the census the Steve Jobsarchitect come in have very
strong opinions.
I don't know enough about SteveJobs like perfectly quote how
he works, but this is like.
This is the reputation that hehad was very tough to work with
(19:31):
him because he would be so rigidon his idea of how to do things
that it made it.
So everyone else was basicallyrunning around chicken with
their heads cut off, trying tofigure out, trying to match his
vision.
Brian Wang (19:50):
So do me a favor, eric.
Yeah, imagine you're doing that.
So just step into that moviefor a moment and I'm going to
give you permission to get itwrong.
So like, okay, retrospect,you're going to be like, yeah,
that was really aggressive.
Just see if you can imaginethat embody that sort of very
(20:12):
fiery opinion, regeneratedopinion, sort of thing, and then
imagine how people are reactingto you.
Just tell me what you see.
Erik Dunteman (20:25):
Well, one nice thing is the team definitely
aren't pushovers.
So I think if, if I already gettoo fired up about something,
there would be, you know,civilized pushback on that.
So in this scenario, where theycome in with that sort of
attitude, there'd be civilizedpushback.
(20:49):
I think there would be trust aswell If I were to come in with
an idea that was completely offof what everyone else thinks.
I do believe people would, youknow, give their opinions but
also trust me in that sense andmaybe even go along with it,
even if it's not clear to them,and there actually may be a
(21:11):
sense of relief as well.
Brian Wang (21:17):
Say more about that.
Erik Dunteman (21:19):
The team creates intensity and I'm currently not
bringing intensity.
So, regardless of the form ofthat intensity like just getting
something, sounds nice for themand of course, like this whole,
this whole conversation, Idon't want to speak for them,
but I know every time somebodyhas come in with a level of
(21:40):
intensity, even if it's like,even if you have to back them up
a bit like sort of de-escalatehard opinions, it's almost
preferable to at least like,have an opinion that have no
opinion that makes sense.
It's better to be aggressiveand then walk it back than it is
(22:01):
to be too passive and not getto the level of intensity that
the team wants.
Brian Wang (22:11):
Okay, let me pause and just I want to show what I'm
noticing in what you're saying.
Then, eric, it sounds like onsome level, you're really like
you have no trouble articulatingwhat your team is asking for
and what it wants.
And if there was like aspectrum that we were to imagine
where it's like zero intensityand it's like let's all be very,
(22:33):
you know, peace-loving and holdhands and no conflict, and
there's just like on the otherend, like very high conflict,
we're butting heads and we'regetting like we're getting
really aggressive with eachother, like you find yourself
closer to the former, but yourteam is kind of asking for
something closer to the latter,maybe not to the point where the
conflict is toxic, but you knowthere's like there's something
(22:55):
useful about friction.
And so I want to just kind oftune back into your experience
of this.
So there's this mismatchbetween what you can cognitively
recognize, what your team isasking for, and then how you're
showing up.
So, even as you were steppinginto this example of kind of
being the Steve Jobs character,you sort of like yeah, the team
(23:17):
have healthy pushback, they kindof want the intensity.
So I'm curious, like what doesthat feel like for you?
Just imagining that scenario,what do you notice in your
experience of it?
Erik Dunteman (23:33):
Could you repeat the question?
Brian Wang (23:35):
Yeah.
So, like what I'm noticing isthat you have no trouble
describing, like, the behaviorthat you could maybe try out and
how that maybe even your teamis wanting something like that,
Right.
But my sense is, like even justin you and I having this
conversation, like I don't getthe sense that like, yeah, cool,
I'm going to walk away and belike great, I'm going to show up
(23:57):
with more fire, I'm going toshow up with more pain here,
Right.
So I'm just curious like whatthe what?
The gap is there?
Erik Dunteman (24:04):
right, you clearly understand it.
Brian Wang (24:06):
But what's like?
What's the?
You were referencing theblocker right.
Erik Dunteman (24:09):
What's like?
What do you?
Brian Wang (24:09):
notice thing that's blocking you.
Erik Dunteman (24:11):
This the size and my frustration of having talked
about this so much is.
I feel like I understand theproblem.
I don't know how to implementthe solution, or maybe I do not
implement the solution.
There's there's two blockersright now.
Brian Wang (24:24):
Yeah.
Erik Dunteman (24:26):
One is I need to find the energy and the passion
within myself in the first placeto come in with that fire.
It's not like I have a bunch ofpent up like intensity that I'm
just filtering and holding back.
I recognize I do want to bringmore intensity into my work and
(24:48):
there's been you know, just thepersonal emotional journey of
being a founder.
I'm not at peak when it comesto the intensity I'm bringing.
I've seen I've seen myself inin the past bring significant
intensity in a good way, likevery very good way.
that may be proud.
I'm currently not there, soblocker number one it feels like
(25:11):
I would be faking it.
I'm disingenuous to bring thatintensity in to the team.
Yeah, got it.
Blocker two there's still notthe trust that if I bring
intensity in and I exceed theline of what people want, that
they're able to walk it back,because ultimately it's a
spectrum of like low intensity,high intensity, somewhere in the
(25:32):
middle is what people want inorder to feel like they're doing
good work without being tomoralized.
And what we're saying here islike walk up the intensity until
you cross the threshold andthen trust that people are able
to basically step you back and,you know, land on that happy
spot.
So there's still the trust ofwill people?
(25:54):
Will people hate me?
Will people actually be willingto speak up?
I believe that they would be,but I haven't seen it in
practice because I haven'tpracticed it.
Brian Wang (26:07):
So well, it's a little bit of a catch 22 there.
Erik Dunteman (26:10):
Yeah, yeah, it definitely is.
It's one of those things likegiven a tech catch 22,.
Even if it seems logically likeaction isn't helpful, it's
better than just doing nothing.
Brian Wang (26:23):
So right, you listed like two of these things, right
.
So there's like, hey, I'mnoticing, I don't even have this
like authentic intensity tobring out now.
And then there's the secondthing around I don't know if I
can trust my team to.
You know, pull me back whenI've gone too far.
Which of those fields more ofthe blocker right now, if you
(26:46):
had to choose?
Erik Dunteman (26:48):
So the big problem is well the second one.
The team isn't walking me backand like, or I don't trust that
the team will give me thefeedback about overstepped.
Ultimately, that's the thing Iwant to solve, but I feel like
the core issue is actually thatfirst one, okay, or I call it
the parent issue.
(27:09):
The the next level up is theintensity I bring, because I
believe that a more intenseversion of myself would be
someone who's more willing tofigure out the second one.
Brian Wang (27:25):
Yeah, I got it.
Erik Dunteman (27:26):
I got it.
Yeah, it seems like it's right.
Brian Wang (27:28):
Well, I mean you can .
It's kind of like you're noteven going to have the problem
of oh, is my team going tocalibrate for me or feed?
Give me a feedback if you don'thave that sort of authentic
well of energy to drop on in thefirst place?
Erik Dunteman (27:45):
Right.
Brian Wang (27:45):
Yeah, yeah, so let's maybe go there for a second.
Erik Dunteman (27:51):
It feels like a bit of a side tangent, but it
does feel like the theoverreaching issue here.
Brian Wang (27:57):
Yeah, so tell me more about it, like you're
noticing that you haven't.
You can't even find the, theintensity right now, the energy,
although you've been in touchwith that before.
Yeah can just say more about itoverall.
Erik Dunteman (28:16):
Um, yeah.
So my motivations when Istarted in start up not just
banana, but five years ago whenI, when I went full time on the
start up, On the start up Um oron startups in general my
motivation was primarily fun andstatus.
I did startups because it wasfun and at the time I feel like
(28:42):
I was pretty naive.
So my opinion of what a cool 19year old cool, 21 year old at
the time Like this is 22.
This is just the coolest thingI could do.
I could be 430 under 30 likethis is sick.
I'll do pitch competitionsbeyond Shark Tank.
(29:03):
That was my definition ofstartup and that's one of the
reasons I got into it, because Ifelt like a cool status game.
So it was a lot easier for me.
If I'm having fun and ifpositive performance led to me
feeling high status, high ego,it was a reason for me to come
(29:23):
in with a fire and a reason forme to like advocate for myself
or create positive outcomes formyself, because it was directly
tied to some outcome.
Brian Wang (29:41):
You would feel driven to pursue those things.
Erik Dunteman (29:44):
If I bring intensity, I both have fun and I
have people around me thatinstant who will be like oh wow,
you're so intense.
I was posting on Snapchat andInstagram all the time like sort
of lifestyle hustler.
Brian Wang (29:56):
Yeah, I think there's this kind of like sense
of validation and significancething going on there.
Erik Dunteman (30:01):
Yeah, so I got the instant hit from that, so it
was able to continue Fastforward to today.
I've gotten mostly off ofsocial media because I think a
lot of my motivation is nolonger extrinsic, so it's a lot
harder to get that instant hit.
Additional thing is we'veraised at this point significant
(30:22):
money from investors, so thedrive to win isn't about what
could I do for myself.
It starts becoming a I havethis debt that I need to pay to
the people who took a shot on meand it feels more like I'm yeah
(30:46):
.
To use an analogy, imagineyou're saving up money.
If you have zero debt andyou're saving up 100k, that
feels great because you're likewow, look at me.
If you're at 100k debt andyou're just trying to pay that
off effectively, you're doingthe same things, but it feels
way, way worse, right.
Brian Wang (31:08):
Yeah, so I think?
Erik Dunteman (31:10):
Is that what it feels?
Brian Wang (31:11):
like, like, running and leading banana.
Right now it's like I'm diggingmyself out of that.
Erik Dunteman (31:19):
Yeah, I'm not having fun.
I'm fulfilling theresponsibility that I've put
myself into, and not just purelyinvestors, but also, just like
I have publicly said, I'm EricDuntiman, I'm building banana
and we're going to be the futureof AI computing.
Now I got to live up to that.
(31:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Brian Wang (31:45):
So at some point it sounds like it flipped from hey,
this is fun, this is excitingTo.
Oh man, now I have to do allthis stuff.
I've made these promises.
I have to fulfill myobligations.
You didn't use that word, butthis kind of I want to see if it
fits.
Erik Dunteman (32:05):
It's like yes, I mean, this is very, very
thematic to what I'm goingthrough right now, which is over
the last month.
I've been believing probablyone of the worst depressions
I've had in eight years, and thebig trigger words that I
realized were getting me intothis state were you're saying
(32:25):
obligations.
For me was like I ought to dosomething versus I want to do
something.
That is such a crippling feelingof I ought to do something
because it has you doing thingsthat you aren't bringing your
full intensity self into.
So recently been working moreon doing things that I want to
(32:46):
do and trusting that yes, Iought to do this laundry list of
things, but if I'm not at peakI'm not going to do well on
those things anyway, versus if Ifocus on myself, focus on
having fun, I bring a betterversion of myself into the
things that I ought to do andperhaps they feel like want to
(33:08):
do as once I actually get tothat point.
So this is We've touched in.
Like.
The other major thread of likeemotional things I've been going
through is yeah.
I've put more mentally.
I've positioned myself as Ihave a bunch of ought to's.
I ought to be a perfect founder.
I ought to create massivereturns for investors.
(33:30):
To do all that.
Brian Wang (33:32):
I ought to shield my team from accountability.
Yeah, exactly, exactly Like.
Erik Dunteman (33:37):
I put myself into the position.
Why should I expect somebodyelse who signed up like who's
putting themselves out on a limbto join me?
Why should I put that pressureon them?
Brian Wang (33:49):
What's interesting is hopefully this is not too
much of a tangent, but inlistening to that it almost
sounds like on some level youhave taken it upon yourself to
take responsibility like toomuch responsibility for yourself
and for others.
Like you know, you hear you havea bunch of people who have
(34:12):
voluntarily joined your company,said I'm going to go spend my
time and my energy on this teamand I'm signing up for something
that's going to requiresomething of me, and yet I hear
in just the way you'redescribing.
It's like whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa.
Like I got to make sure thatI'm taking on as much of the
(34:33):
burden as I can for these folks.
I got to shield them.
They can't handle that on somelevel, right, it's up to me to
make sure that everything goessmoothly for them and there's
just sense of like I need tokind of control it all as much
as I can.
It's important for you to dothat.
Erik Dunteman (34:57):
Yeah, this is going back to my visions of what
a toxic or negative manager isFor me.
Somebody and again, I haven'tworked in an organization where
I've been an employee, seen agreat manager and worked
extremely hard as an employee.
I think there is theoverwhelming sentiment that
(35:20):
employees like you shouldn'ttake advantage of them and our
employees.
They're working hard, like theyput in hours.
I think they're sacrificingthings within their own lives,
so I already feel like anestablished sense of guilt
around that.
So to demand more feels likesuch a tall ask.
Brian Wang (35:48):
What's making you think that?
Erik Dunteman (35:49):
you.
It's a taller ask for us tofail and we no longer pay
payroll.
We have to shut things downlike that.
It has a much worse ask, so ofcourse we need to make it work.
Brian Wang (36:03):
What's making you think that you couldn't say, hey
guys, I think we need to pushharder on this.
And what's making you not trustthat they might push back or
say no or offer somethingalternative?
Erik Dunteman (36:23):
That's funny how frequently this topic comes up
and how I still haven't learnedto trust that perhaps my
definition or my image of what'sgoing to go through people's
head Like I, haven't changedthat.
Brian Wang (36:43):
I want to just point something out.
I've heard you use the wordtrust a few times.
Erik Dunteman (36:49):
Yeah.
Brian Wang (36:50):
What does it mean to you?
Good question.
Erik Dunteman (36:52):
I don't want to get too meta-analytical here,
but the fact that I don't have aclear definition of the word
trust implies to me that I'vejust been using the word habit
or out of being able torepresent this idea versus
actually critically thinking.
Is trust the right word?
(37:12):
What even am I trying to definehere?
In the end, I don't want peopleto view me.
Can I swear?
Is this OK?
Yeah, I don't want people toview me as an asshole.
Stay with that.
(37:34):
Yeah, I want to be respected.
I think a lot of the reason Ido what I do, or my main
motivation, is to achieve thingsthat most don't In fact, very,
very, very few, if not zero,achieve.
(37:55):
So part of that requirespushing limits, and there's
still something uncomfortableabout actually putting that into
practice.
Brian Wang (38:06):
Let me go back to the asshole thing.
What happens if?
Some of the things are anasshole.
What do you have to feel inthat situation?
It's great.
Erik Dunteman (38:15):
Because when you actually think about it, it's
like, oh, while you talk aboutit, and if they decide they
don't want to be around you,they, it's their choice and they
could choose to leave.
Brian Wang (38:26):
You're still talking about it.
So let's say, I'm like Eric,you're a real asshole just now.
What does that?
Erik Dunteman (38:34):
feel.
Brian Wang (38:35):
Just get out of your head.
What does that feel like belowthe neck?
What does that feel like?
Erik Dunteman (38:39):
for you.
Yeah, it's in my chest, iswhere it is.
Brian Wang (38:44):
Stay with that.
Erik Dunteman (38:46):
Yeah.
Brian Wang (38:47):
Tell me about that feeling.
Erik Dunteman (38:55):
Connecting it to the sense of disappointing my
parents is like where thefeeling comes from of I am.
I'm a human trying to do mybest in the world.
Brian Wang (39:11):
Yeah.
Erik Dunteman (39:12):
And if I know that I've screwed up, which, if
somebody calls me an asshole,for me, my definition of that is
I've screwed up.
Ok, because I am a peoplepleaser, I want people to like
me.
If somebody says I'm an asshole, that's them telling me that I
(39:36):
failed.
That's the thing I derive a lotof joy from, which is people
liking me and appreciating me.
If somebody said, hey, eric,you were really an asshole there
, I would definitely I'd havethe political response of thank
(39:59):
you for this feedback.
I really appreciate that.
It was very brave of you to beable to tell me that.
I'm glad that we have this openspace where you feel safe
communicating that to me.
Brian Wang (40:09):
But underneath that your voice is like going real
monotone.
It's like you're like oh, thankyou for that.
Erik Dunteman (40:16):
Yeah.
Brian Wang (40:17):
Stay with that, the feeling in the chest, the
disappointment.
Just see if you can, justwithout analyzing it, is it just
to notice the energy there andhold it for a moment?
Erik Dunteman (40:35):
I definitely want to cry, and I don't know from
where that sensation is Sure,but it feels like if somebody
were to tell me I was being anasshole.
I have this facade that I keepup yeah.
(40:56):
And part of that is just likeI've learned to mask certain
parts of myself in order toappear more social more
charismatic.
More on top of things.
What's the part that wants tohide?
Brian Wang (41:11):
or what's the part that you're wanting to hide
right now?
Erik Dunteman (41:17):
So in that case I sort of the child in me.
Like I said, I called back to adisappointing parent and I
don't think it's specifically myparents but that idea of being
a child and realizing, oh no, Idid bad, and just crumbling into
this tiny fetal position let'stry something here.
(41:38):
Yeah.
Brian Wang (41:40):
So see if you can just contact that child the one
that's present here, right.
See, if you can just contactthat child the one that's
present here, right, see if youcan maybe create a little bit of
space psychologically betweenyou, your awareness and the
child and just really tune in tobe present to that.
(42:03):
And whatever feeling of hurt orupset or fear may be present,
just allow that too, right, theymay just show up as sensations
in the body.
Erik Dunteman (42:21):
Mm-hmm, I'm not breathing.
That's one sensation that'scoming up.
Brian Wang (42:26):
All right, so Forgot to breathe Great, noticing
Breathe into that.
So allow yourself to breatheinto those sensations.
I'll see the belly if you can.
Erik Dunteman (42:56):
I've had this come up in other parts of my
life, this same exact feeling ofthe facade coming down,
everything crumbling and justbeing a child behind it.
Brian Wang (43:05):
Yeah.
So let's just assume the childneeds something from you right
now.
You might even just ask itmurderously, if you like what
does it need from you?
What might you be hearing?
Erik Dunteman (43:33):
Ah, the child definitely needs to know that.
I know that it's doing its best, that even if it's screwed up
in that moment, it is still good.
It is still trying hard.
I'm still proud of it.
Brian Wang (43:49):
Yeah, great.
So even when it screws up, evenwhen you screw up, you can see
it's trying hard, it's tryingits best, it's still good.
What happens if you just sendyourself that recognition or
(44:12):
send that child part of you,that recognition right now?
Erik Dunteman (44:31):
Well, naturally I have the question of what is
this fix?
Like I send the recognition andthen there's, like a cool, a
validate child, but I still needto put that facade back up.
Brian Wang (44:48):
Why.
Erik Dunteman (44:55):
I'm a CEO of a funded company Feels like I
can't be a child and thatchildish version of me Well, I
want to make a distinction.
Brian Wang (45:06):
I'm not suggesting that you show up to your
meetings like a child who'seasily wounded.
Yes what happens if you're ableto show up to your team where
you're able to be present withthe child that might feel hurt,
(45:27):
but having no need to shield, tofacade between yourself and the
team.
So you show up like an asshole.
Sometimes People give youfeedback.
Erik Dunteman (45:51):
I don't know if he's cool talking me, talking
about him.
I think my co-founder isexceptionally good at this.
I'm just bringing his curiouschild like self to everything
and then accepting feedback asit comes and iterating.
There's much less of a facade,so it's not the solution, but I
(46:12):
at least have someone to look tofor a positive example there.
Brian Wang (46:16):
So you have evidence that it can be done, where
someone can behave in a certainway in a certain ecosystem.
When they get feedback from theecosystem, they adjust and
they're able to keep iterating.
Oh well, maintaining theirchildlike wonder sounds like.
Erik Dunteman (46:43):
There is a line to be drawn, though of.
Ultimately, a lot of the reasonfor a facade is you want to be
able to achieve something, and Idon't want the version of me
that I bring to become a burden.
I don't want it to be like adaycare of Eric.
Brian Wang (47:06):
I don't think your team wants that.
I don't think anyone wants that.
Erik Dunteman (47:09):
So how do I simultaneously do both like
bring the more childlike versionof myself more a vulnerable
version of myself which opens meup to trying things and
iterating things, which is anamazing things that kids?
Do they're vulnerable, they'resoft, but they haven't built up
(47:31):
that armor, so they're willingto try things.
I just don't want to beuninspiring and I don't want to
use people's time because Ithink I'm already asking so much
of that.
Brian Wang (47:52):
So what does it look like to do everything you just
said iterate, be willing to getit wrong, try a bunch of things
and not needing anyone elsearound you to take care of you,
but rather to show up withknowing that, yeah, you're going
(48:16):
to get wounded, you're going toget hurt, you're going to get
your feelings hurt, and then youcan take care of yourself in
that scenario so that you're nota burden for others.
Just imagine that's possiblefor a moment.
Erik Dunteman (48:33):
Yeah, so I was immediately imagining it not
being possible.
Do this A few into how I'mreceiving it?
Could I ask contrary questionsto help navigate this?
Brian Wang (48:55):
This is your time.
You can ask any question youwant, yeah.
Erik Dunteman (49:00):
When does the work get done?
Like this is ultimately andthis is why I'm starting this
conversation is more work needsto get done, and it feels
counterintuitive to add this tothe quantity of things I have to
(49:23):
think about and spend time on.
And you can do it to an extreme, but in the end it's hard to be
simultaneously a founder and amonk who lives in the mountains
(49:44):
and says nothing.
So what's the extent of thisself-work or not, as what is the
extent?
Brian Wang (49:55):
What are you doing?
Erik Dunteman (49:56):
without sacrificing the fact that food
has to be consumed.
Bills need to be paid, salariesneed to be paid, sales calls
need to be taken.
Brian Wang (50:13):
Yeah, let me reflect on that for a moment, eric, I
don't think we're talking aboutyou going to be a monk in the
mountain and rejecting the restof the world.
You do have a lot going on that.
You obviously things that youcare about and you want to
advance forward.
So I don't think what we'retalking about is let me hide
(50:35):
away in a cave now for sixmonths and sort my shit out, and
now I can be a good leader.
I think what we're talkingabout is seeing more clearly the
way you've been going aboutthings and getting honest about
what results am I creatingthrough the way I've been
(50:58):
approaching things, and is thatas quo?
So you sort of framed it as hey, this seems like extra work.
I need to add extra work now toget better results, but I think
it's actually more.
How do I change the way I'mdoing this in the first place so
that I'm getting differentresults?
Erik Dunteman (51:20):
I had a breakthrough or a reframing just
now.
Visualization that helped.
I'm rather treating it so.
Previously it was, thevisualization was a child with a
rigid shell around it.
And if that shell crumbles thenthe child crumbles and you
realize, oh, the human is muchsmaller, much more childish than
(51:42):
you previously thought, whereasa different visualization that
really helped me here just nowwas the idea of being in a
meeting with my team, but thereal me is standing off to the
(52:03):
side and there's a projection ofmyself in the meeting
participating, and thatprojection is previously that
was the shell, the facade.
The projection is whatever islike some transformation on
(52:24):
myself that I feel is morepresentable to the team.
But because I'm operatingthrough that projection and not
through myself, I'm almost noteven participating in the
conversation.
The real me is off to the side.
So I think maybe the wordchildish I know a lot of the
(52:45):
emotions come from the childishfeeling of failing or
disappointing people but I thinkit's helped to reframe this as
a sort of like I'm operatingthrough a proxy, I'm operating
through something that's not me.
Therefore, of course, I'm notgoing to be as effective Whereas
(53:10):
putting myself into thatmeeting.
The meeting is still gettingdone, but it's a more true
version of myself.
Brian Wang (53:18):
So let me just make sure I'm following.
So which one is the one thatyou've been using?
Erik Dunteman (53:25):
more generally, Previously, we've been using the
idea of I'm operating myself.
It is myself operating, but Ihave a facade, and if that
facade crumbles, there's reallya child behind it.
And while you were talking oneminute ago, I had a different
visualization of, basically,rather than a child being nested
(53:50):
within me, I'm more like me,I'm across the room and there's
some projection of myself.
That's actually doing theengagement.
The interaction.
That's the thing that just cameup for me now.
So previously we'd been talkingmore about the child analogy.
Brian Wang (54:10):
Right and this feels more empowering.
I'm curious, how does it feelfor you like this visualization
of kind of this way of being orthis way of operating.
Erik Dunteman (54:22):
It makes it not feel like a regression to drop
the facade and go back tosomething that's more genuinely
me, Because previously thegenuine version of myself is
very more childlike, which Ididn't see as having a place at
the meeting, if that makes sense.
Brian Wang (54:45):
I think there's a distinction here between showing
up like a child and showing upauthentically.
Erik Dunteman (54:58):
Yes, and maybe that's why my new analogy makes
a bit more sense, or at least ithelps distinguish those two of
the goal is not to show up likea child.
The goal is to show up as incaught, an unfiltered version of
myself, and not filtered fromlike a sense of.
Brian Wang (55:20):
I guess maybe I am filtering myself, but I mean
just to be clear, on some levelwe're always filtering ourselves
, right?
Yeah, I think it's very rarefor us to enter a space,
especially a professional one,where we're 100% authentic.
I think even authenticauthenticity can be a loaded
word.
But I think it's important forus to make a distinction that,
(55:42):
like a child, they act out theiremotions in a completely
unregulated way oftentimes,especially when they're younger,
right, where they might bereally sensitive, and then, when
they feel hurt, they're goingto really express that right,
(56:03):
tears, rage, et cetera, right.
And so I think that that sortof behavior, at least from where
I'm sitting, is kind of whatwe're saying we don't want.
Are we on the same page on that?
Erik Dunteman (56:17):
Yeah, correct, I don't want that.
Yeah, I want authenticity, butI don't want to have that.
Brian Wang (56:24):
Yeah, Great.
So, yeah, we're starting to getto the close here.
I want to maybe that's a greatquestion here If you were to
define the way you do want toshow up in these spaces.
Maybe it's that analogy thatyou were using earlier, that
(56:47):
visualization you were usingjust earlier.
But I'm wondering if you canjust describe it more.
Erik Dunteman (56:59):
I want to show up as if I have helium in my body.
I'm floating, I'm bouncing.
I think the word fun isultimately the most childlike
thing that I do want to bringinto it, because fun for me is
the fuel for so many otherpositive things that I could
bring in.
Brian Wang (57:19):
Great.
Erik Dunteman (57:27):
Certainly less stress, I think not naivete.
I don't want to bring in thatin, but I do want rather than
just being locked up in tenseagain on the helium thing just
feeling like I'm just floatingaround having fun, ultimately
doing the same things andprobably doing them better being
(57:54):
able to fail and get up easily,something that children are
especially good at- it's justfun and viewing it as part of
the process.
I think the more we the more weagonize on each individual fall,
the bigger they seem.
I think the goal is to makefalls feel small, so you just
(58:15):
get over them and a few minuteslater you've forgotten that.
That vehicle.
I just want to smile and laughmore, and do so with the team.
Yeah, also, just like fasterlearning, right Of discover
(58:47):
something cool and notice oh,this actually breaks the frame
versus stressfully hanging ontomy previous definition of how
things worked.
Brian Wang (59:01):
Right, yeah, awesome .
So you just I don't know whyyou use the word helium.
I always imagine the balloonfloating around and it's like it
can get knocked around, butit's still floating, right, it's
still ascending.
Yeah, I, just as we're comingto a close here, I love the
(59:23):
visuals that you just providedthere, eric, in the spirit of
just starting small what's asmall way you can start to
really embody what you justdescribed, as you kind of move
forward to showing up to theteam.
Erik Dunteman (59:55):
I have.
I have something that came tomind.
I don't know if it's thecorrect answer, but I'm asking
the word why a lot, and not in acondescending like why, but
more like hey, why, Like let'sexplore this.
This sounds fun, More out ofthe hey.
(01:00:16):
There's something about youthat I don't know and I'm just
curious, like why.
I feel like that's something Icould bring into my interactions
with the team, that I'd learnsomething.
It'd feel more human, and beingmore human ultimately leads to
having more fun.
(01:00:36):
In my opinion, it's veryimportant not to do it
confrontationally, but I thinkit could be done in a way that
sparks conversation thatotherwise wouldn't happen.
So that's one thing.
I don't want to like fake happy, I don't want to fake smile, so
(01:01:02):
I wouldn't know what to do onthat front.
But I think bringing bringingmore of my child like wonder,
also just like releasing myexpectation that I should know
everything, Because that opensyou up to being more wondrous.
(01:01:25):
I think those two things wouldprobably or it's better than not
doing this, and they're worthtrying, and they're the things
that currently have come to myhead Great.
Brian Wang (01:01:43):
Yeah, so like when I hear you describe that showing
with why and there's like anon-confrontational sort of way
of doing it there's, there'sjust like open curiosity, it's
like I actually really want tofind out more.
I want to know more.
I'm like, oh, like that doesn'tsomething's.
I'm missing something there.
Cool, like there's somethingfor you to learn there.
Right, yeah, there's alightness to it.
Erik Dunteman (01:02:04):
Yeah yeah, lightness is a good word, like
the helium, yeah yeah, oh, why?
Like, oh cool, like let's floatover there and like try that or
learn something.
How exciting.
Brian Wang (01:02:13):
Yeah, yeah, cool.
Well, I'm excited to hear howlightness and the curiosity and
the wonder kind of make its wayin for you as you're kind of
moving forward on this yeah.
Erik Dunteman (01:02:28):
Looking forward yeah.
Brian Wang (01:02:31):
Any final final reflections or thoughts before
we close out here.
Erik Dunteman (01:02:39):
I'm very impressed and surprised by the
amount of thematic leaps we wentthrough here, because
originally I was talking aboutCaesar being in front of an army
battle, yeah, and then laterit's like oh, I am a child, that
wasn't something I expected tocome off, so I'm feeling really
grateful for that.
This felt like a good session,so great.
(01:03:01):
That's my main observation here.
Brian Wang (01:03:05):
Awesome.
Erik Dunteman (01:03:05):
Appreciate it, Nice Brian.
Brian Wang (01:03:07):
I appreciate you.
Thanks, eric, appreciate you.
We all have a desire to beliked and approved, but when
taken too far we can enterpeople pleasing territory For
Eric.
He knew that the team neededBoulder leadership.
In fact they had asked himdirectly to hold him accountable
to the results.
But Eric struggled to find theintensity the team was asking
for because he worried abouttaking advantage of his team and
(01:03:30):
that would mean he's an assholeas a coach.
This was a huge clue for me.
That's why I experimented withcalling Eric an asshole right
there and observing his reaction.
His body told us more than hiswords were ever going to
Tightness in the chest, tearsbehind the eyes.
That allowed us to move pastthe intellectual and touch the
emotional experience of it all.
(01:03:51):
This is where Eric's youngerself came up, the inner child
that worries it's done somethingwrong.
The breakthrough came when Ericrealized he didn't need to show
up as a vulnerable child, butrather he could be his adult
self.
That led with intensity whilemaintaining a sense of internal
safety.
From there he could tap into asense of fun, lightness and
wonder.
This was a great example of howwe get blocked not by our
(01:04:13):
intellectual knowing but ouremotional knowing.
Eric might know he's notactually an asshole, but in the
moment it feels true.
By connecting directly withthis part and showing it a
different way, he was able tofind a new path forward.
So here are some actionablenuggets for you.
One, have clear discussionswith your team on how you want
to collectively handle feedbackand accountability.
(01:04:35):
Two, if you find yourselfgetting stuck, even though you
quote unquote know what youshould be doing, then you're
probably resisting an emotionalexperience.
Getting unstuck means movingtoward that experience.
Finally, whatevervulnerabilities you find in
yourself, treat them withcompassion.
It is the best way to find calmand allow your more mature self
(01:04:56):
to take the wheel.
Thank you for listening toSlowdown to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please rate it in your favorite
podcasting app.
If you are a founder who wouldlike help in reaching the next
level through coaching, or ifyou'd like to come on the show,
please contact me atdashingleadershipcom.
Welcome to Slow Down , to Speed Up.
I'm Brian Wang, an executivecoach who helps founders grow by
working through their biggestchallenges.
On this show, we have realone-time coaching sessions where
you will hear things my clientsnever say elsewhere because
they're working through currentlive issues.
I ask everyone who comes on theshow to dig deep and trust that
by the end they will learnsomething about themselves and
(00:23):
how to move forward in theirbusiness.
On today's session, I work withEric Dunnman, ceo and
co-founder of a company calledBanana.
This question is how do I bringmore intensity and
accountability to my teamwithout being an asshole?
What's really interesting aboutthis session is that, rather
than just talk about the problem, I push Eric to go directly
into the experience that he'strying to avoid.
What results is a set ofvisceral reactions that actually
(00:46):
contain lots of usefulinformation for Eric, and as I
help him process through thosereactions, he arrives at a
breakthrough, and on the otherside of that breakthrough, he
starts to see new possibilitiesin the way he shows up to his
team.
So if you're someone whostruggles with pushing others
productively, this episode isfor you.
Let's listen in.
Erik Dunteman (01:05):
It's been a stressful period for Banana.
For me, the biggest one that'stop of mind is figuring out how
to be more of a leader and lessof an individual contributor.
I see, I find my comfort zoneis definitely just tucking away
(01:26):
and doing code, and at times theteam needs that.
But at times the team needsthat extra direction, extra
belief that they're going in theright direction, and I think
that ultimately comes down to meand I've failed at this in the
past.
So I think now is the time tofigure this out.
(01:47):
It seems pretty existential.
Brian Wang (01:50):
Yeah.
So even just listening to youdescribe it at first, it sounds
like there are a few examplesthat are springing up to mind
for you.
As you're bringing it up andyou're talking about the shift
of becoming a leader, I guess,before we even get into any
specific examples, I'm curious,I'm wondering if you can expand
on the distinction a little bit.
For me, like in your mind, whatdoes it mean to show up as a
(02:11):
leader versus just kind ofshowing up as an IC for your
team?
Erik Dunteman (02:13):
Yeah, I think it'd be easier to conflate with
the whole more like productmanager person who manages tasks
on a board, and that's less ofthe energy I'm trying to bring
in.
I think it's more eliminatingany sort of ambiguity around why
(02:34):
we're doing what we're doing,because I think engineering
output is what matters the mostright now for the team In
engineer who's not 100%confident that what they're
doing is impactful is stuck notat 90% or 80%, but they're at
(02:54):
probably 20% capacity.
The magic that happens is whenyou get to such high clarity
that you're just chugging alongand you hit a flow state.
But if you're constantly secondguessing whether or not you're
working on the right thing inthe first place, it's sort of
hard to get into that.
So that's really how I defineleadership in this sense of
(03:14):
giving people the feeling ofbeing part of a unit, having a
very clear direction, having avery clear call it sprint for
the week, but also understandingwhy that's important and how
that helps us in the greaterpicture of things.
Brian Wang (03:36):
Yeah, it sounds like the big theme, or one of the
big themes, is creating clarity.
Why are we doing what we'redoing across multiple Zoom
levels, not just here's whatwe're doing today in today's
standup or the sprint for theweek, but also how does it tie
into the broader picture of whywe're doing all of this at all?
(03:56):
And once you have all of thatin place, when people can come
up or come to work knowing Iknow why I'm doing what I'm
doing and how it fits in, andthat's where things start to
fall into place for you.
It sounds like.
Erik Dunteman (04:11):
Yeah, very much so.
Brian Wang (04:13):
Yeah.
So I'm wondering, as you'respeaking about that, I'm curious
how do you see yourself fittinginto creating that set of
conditions that you'redescribing?
Erik Dunteman (04:27):
I'm a tad biased because I recently listened to a
biography of Julius Caesar.
So I'm thinking about aparticular battle where the
troughs themselves werefaltering, they weren't doing
well, and Julius went to thefront lines and basically
presented himself and basicallysaying hey, this is the final
(04:50):
push, this is the moment thatmatters right now.
Therefore, give it your all.
I wouldn't say that directlytranslates to exactly what we're
doing right now, because it isa longer term battle in our
sense, but I really want to makesure I'm answering your
(05:13):
question here.
I got my mind on Julius Caesar.
Brian Wang (05:18):
Something about him is resonating.
It sounds like.
Erik Dunteman (05:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's ultimately like howdo I show up and continue to put
in the work, still be in thearena, be a leader who's with
the people, but do so in a waythat is strategic, that
communicates to the team, todrop any sort of ambiguity they
(05:46):
may have or like worries or lackof clarity, and know now is the
moment to do X and get thatdone together.
Brian Wang (05:58):
So there's something about being on the ground
that's really important to you,yeah, and is that kind of the IC
impulse that you referencedearlier?
Erik Dunteman (06:08):
Yeah, I definitely have a lot of guilt
being full manager.
I think the team's too small towarrant that and also I don't
want to put myself on a pedestal, and it feels like doing so
would be putting myself on apedestal.
Brian Wang (06:23):
Can you say more about that?
Erik Dunteman (06:26):
Yeah, it's like I don't feel like I deserve it to
be like by rank higher and, ofcourse, like managers.
You got to view it like yourteam members and you can't be
viewed as a hierarchy, thoughironically, the team seems to
crave some sort of leadershipand person to report to.
(06:48):
So I found my natural guiltabout stepping up and being not
just a leader by example but aleader by rank and by power in a
sense.
That feels super weird to me,super wrong to me, and given our
team size we're a full timeteam of six right now it just
(07:13):
doesn't feel appropriate for meto go fully hands off, but I've
also seen signals on the otherend.
Brian Wang (07:19):
Yeah, let's stay with that for a second.
So I want to verify somethingwith you, eric.
So let's just stay for a momentthat you dropped any sort of
guilt or sense of guilt aroundbeing a manager, being a leader,
maybe directing your team onwhat to do and why, and so on,
or telling them hey, let's dropthis X, y, z.
Just hypothetically.
(07:39):
If you dropped all of that fora moment, how would this whole
thing change for you, or howwould it feel?
Erik Dunteman (07:56):
Yeah, I feel like I'd have plenty of one on ones
and not from a.
You know, let's have anorganized meeting, a standing
meeting, every week, but I'dwant to basically put the
(08:17):
completion of said project inthe hands of a team member, say,
hey, this is fully yours.
My job is to be here, help italong, make sure you're
coordinating with the team,offer my services as well If you
need me, as I see you tell?
me to do so because you're theowner of this project, but being
extremely explicit about this,and I think the leadership, in
(08:40):
my sense, wouldn't be around howdoes the project get done?
And be around setting theexpectation that it gets done
and it gets done extremely well.
Brian Wang (08:51):
What I just heard you say is if, if you drop the
guilt, then you wouldeffectively be turning your
teammates into owners and youwould offer yourself to them.
They're the ones who are incharge of bringing these
projects to completion.
Erik Dunteman (09:07):
Did I hear that right?
You heard that right, and theinteresting issue is coming up
for you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, something'sdefinitely coming up.
So I want to turn people intoowners.
I am too polite to hold peopleto their outcomes, so if
somebody's an owner and theyscrew it up, I have yet to
(09:29):
develop the skill to basicallylike you know, I would never
yell at someone If the team isdepending on an owner to get
something done and it doesn'tget done.
Yeah that's as an issue.
That's somebody who's sure nothelping the team's mission.
Brian Wang (09:50):
So let's pause for a second.
So so the way you're describingthat sounds like If I, if I
make people owners, or if I handownership over to my team, I
run the risk of them missing themark.
And then there comes thismoment where I might have to
(10:11):
bring that up or I might have tohold that person accountable
yeah, that's a good word.
And then is that where thisguilt is coming from, this sense
like now, now I have to holdyour feet to the fire, so to
speak.
Erik Dunteman (10:25):
Yeah, yeah, I feel imposing to put that level
of pressure on someone and it'sa lot easier for me emotionally
to take that pressure myselfthan to put it on others.
Brian Wang (10:40):
Yeah.
Erik Dunteman (10:41):
Because the if I put it on others, that requires
me to have a bunch ofuncomfortable conversations.
Brian Wang (10:51):
Yeah, I think, no matter what you're going to end
up in these uncomfortable Con orsituations, it's just that in
the in kind of the status quo,you sort of chosen to be
uncomfortable in a different way, right?
Like you know, I'm going tomaybe take on a bunch of this
stuff myself and and notice thatthere's a mess, but I'm not
(11:14):
going to say anything about it.
You also say it said you know,my team seems to be looking for
guidance and leadership for youknow from me.
But you know that aside, I wantto kind of zoom in on this
thing that I heard you say.
It's like, well, if, if theirowners and they missed the mark,
(11:34):
and then now we have to getuncomfortable, that you use this
word like imposition, like theyare imposing on on these people
.
Now, I think that seems to tiein with what you were referring
to earlier around power, rankand so on, yeah, and so what I'm
curious about is what would itlook like to work with your team
(11:55):
in a way where you're allagreeing that you want results,
right, and you all agree thatmistakes will be made, deadlines
will be missed, right, but thisisn't about you imposing.
This is about everyone wantingto get quality results, like
what is the conversation betweenyou and your team look like
(12:17):
under that condition.
Erik Dunteman (12:21):
We've had similar conversations of sort of why
aren't we doing this like why?
Brian Wang (12:28):
why exactly framed?
Erik Dunteman (12:31):
Why aren't we assuming that everyone on the
team also wants results?
And this is come out, this cameup at our offsite of where
maybe we don't trust that theother person is also aligned on
what the mission is and iswilling to put in hard work and
get into uncomfortablesituations in order to make that
(12:51):
happen.
But we've talked about, like,if you just assume that the
other person is there, I'll say,to win, not in like a zero sum
game sort of way, but they'rethere to win, they're there to
excel at what they do and andsucceeded the mission that we
(13:13):
have.
Sure, if you assume thateverything you communicate,
every tough conversation, is inservice of that outcome, not
contrary to them as a person andthis has been brought up of hey
, why don't you trust us more toreceive that?
Brian Wang (13:32):
That's them to you.
Erik Dunteman (13:34):
Yeah, they're.
They've felt frustrated thatultimately, like if the mission
is not succeeding and youmentioned this before like hard
conversations are going to comeup anyway and if I'm shouldering
the responsibility and notimposing it on the rest of the
team, they'll.
(13:54):
They're still frustrated thatwe're not succeeding in the way
that they want, and what I viewas a service to them of you know
, not imposing ends up being adisappointment, because they're
like I'm here for the mission,I'm not here to feel good, I'm
here because I want to do goodwork.
Brian Wang (14:13):
Right.
Erik Dunteman (14:14):
So, you've.
Brian Wang (14:15):
You've already had some some of this conversation
explicitly, yeah, yeah.
Erik Dunteman (14:21):
And I don't know why it's.
It remains a like, a stickingpoint for me.
Brian Wang (14:27):
Yeah, I just noticed you took a big sigh a second
ago.
What was that about?
Erik Dunteman (14:32):
I just whenever I notice I talk about something
twice.
For me, that's a really badsign.
I didn't act on it in the waythat I should have the first
time Okay, and the fact that sopeople on the team went out of
(14:56):
their way to communicate this tome and I'm here more than a
month later Talking about it, itfeels like I've had a sense of
failure.
I didn't honor the request thatthe team had for me.
Brian Wang (15:16):
Right, right, okay.
So you're feeling some sense offailure, just like in the
moment, real time, here, aswe're touching on this.
Erik Dunteman (15:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I've talked about thisand if it comes up more often
than I'm actually acting on it?
You know I'm more of a talkerthan a doer, which is not the
version of me I want to be.
Brian Wang (15:40):
Yeah, okay, so we're pausing on this very moment.
You, you like noticing yourselfdoing the talking and not the
doing Right, and so, like what'soccurring to you to do from
(16:00):
that, like it sort of seems likeyou're having some feelings
about this because it'simportant to you.
Erik Dunteman (16:09):
Yeah, it's important to me.
I think it's something thatrequires practice to do.
Well, I don't expect myself toget immediately good at it, but
I at least expect myself to showsignificant progress in trying.
And then the next naturalquestion is what's the blocker
(16:32):
in me trying practicing?
What's what's stopping me frompracticing?
Is there anything I could dothere?
And part of it is making sure Icommunicate to the team that I
want to grow in this and youknow having a very clear
dialogue with each one of themof how it's going.
(16:52):
You know encouraging them tosupport me in it.
Now I'm not.
Now I'm wondering if that'seven necessary, Like if that's
just me feeling bad about doingthe thing versus just doing it?
Brian Wang (17:09):
What?
What is, yeah, the?
Let's make it more explicitwhat is doing it.
Look like, like even just asmall tangible version of that.
Erik Dunteman (17:16):
That's a great question.
I don't know what it looks like, so I just be throwing things
at them all.
Yeah, maybe one week comment andjust be way too aggressive.
And you know, wait for peopleto give feedback of, hey, that
was like that was too much.
Right, right, I've.
I've never worked with anamazing manager.
I started, I started being afounder directly after
(17:40):
graduating undergrad.
I had some internships, butit's in very slow moving
companies that you know hadstrict hierarchies and sure,
that's the version of manager Idon't want to be.
But in a startup environment Idon't know what success looks
like on this.
So, yeah, so maybe that'sstarting.
Brian Wang (17:57):
You're starting from a little bit of a disadvantage
there.
Erik Dunteman (18:00):
Yeah, maybe that's why I'm talking about it
more, as I'm trying to form myown definition of what a great
leader looks like, because I'venever seen it.
Brian Wang (18:06):
Right.
Erik Dunteman (18:08):
And yeah, if I were to try it, it would just be
like hey does this work andthen hope people give feedback,
but it's also uncomfortable togive feedback, so you can't 100%
trust that.
So my safe space is to continuetalking about this versus
trying something.
Brian Wang (18:24):
Right, yeah, so let's see if we can maybe walk
toward the edge a little bithere, like the edge of the
discomfort, because, like yousaid, just talk all day about it
.
That feels really safe, butthere's not a lot of doing there
.
So you actually just describeda great example of this, where
(18:46):
you know you're going after itand you get aggressive and then
you came in whoa, that was, thatwas too much.
What do you picture you doing?
Or the way you're showing upthe energy?
Like, what does that look likein your mind, this idea of you
showing up aggressively?
Erik Dunteman (19:08):
I think the ultimate example that people go
to on the census the Steve Jobsarchitect come in have very
strong opinions.
I don't know enough about SteveJobs like perfectly quote how
he works, but this is like.
This is the reputation that hehad was very tough to work with
(19:31):
him because he would be so rigidon his idea of how to do things
that it made it.
So everyone else was basicallyrunning around chicken with
their heads cut off, trying tofigure out, trying to match his
vision.
Brian Wang (19:50):
So do me a favor, eric.
Yeah, imagine you're doing that.
So just step into that moviefor a moment and I'm going to
give you permission to get itwrong.
So like, okay, retrospect,you're going to be like, yeah,
that was really aggressive.
Just see if you can imaginethat embody that sort of very
(20:12):
fiery opinion, regeneratedopinion, sort of thing, and then
imagine how people are reactingto you.
Just tell me what you see.
Erik Dunteman (20:25):
Well, one nice thing is the team definitely
aren't pushovers.
So I think if, if I already gettoo fired up about something,
there would be, you know,civilized pushback on that.
So in this scenario, where theycome in with that sort of
attitude, there'd be civilizedpushback.
(20:49):
I think there would be trust aswell If I were to come in with
an idea that was completely offof what everyone else thinks.
I do believe people would, youknow, give their opinions but
also trust me in that sense andmaybe even go along with it,
even if it's not clear to them,and there actually may be a
(21:11):
sense of relief as well.
Brian Wang (21:17):
Say more about that.
Erik Dunteman (21:19):
The team creates intensity and I'm currently not
bringing intensity.
So, regardless of the form ofthat intensity like just getting
something, sounds nice for themand of course, like this whole,
this whole conversation, Idon't want to speak for them,
but I know every time somebodyhas come in with a level of
(21:40):
intensity, even if it's like,even if you have to back them up
a bit like sort of de-escalatehard opinions, it's almost
preferable to at least like,have an opinion that have no
opinion that makes sense.
It's better to be aggressiveand then walk it back than it is
(22:01):
to be too passive and not getto the level of intensity that
the team wants.
Brian Wang (22:11):
Okay, let me pause and just I want to show what I'm
noticing in what you're saying.
Then, eric, it sounds like onsome level, you're really like
you have no trouble articulatingwhat your team is asking for
and what it wants.
And if there was like aspectrum that we were to imagine
where it's like zero intensityand it's like let's all be very,
(22:33):
you know, peace-loving and holdhands and no conflict, and
there's just like on the otherend, like very high conflict,
we're butting heads and we'regetting like we're getting
really aggressive with eachother, like you find yourself
closer to the former, but yourteam is kind of asking for
something closer to the latter,maybe not to the point where the
conflict is toxic, but you knowthere's like there's something
(22:55):
useful about friction.
And so I want to just kind oftune back into your experience
of this.
So there's this mismatchbetween what you can cognitively
recognize, what your team isasking for, and then how you're
showing up.
So, even as you were steppinginto this example of kind of
being the Steve Jobs character,you sort of like yeah, the team
(23:17):
have healthy pushback, they kindof want the intensity.
So I'm curious, like what doesthat feel like for you?
Just imagining that scenario,what do you notice in your
experience of it?
Erik Dunteman (23:33):
Could you repeat the question?
Brian Wang (23:35):
Yeah.
So, like what I'm noticing isthat you have no trouble
describing, like, the behaviorthat you could maybe try out and
how that maybe even your teamis wanting something like that,
Right.
But my sense is, like even justin you and I having this
conversation, like I don't getthe sense that like, yeah, cool,
I'm going to walk away and belike great, I'm going to show up
(23:57):
with more fire, I'm going toshow up with more pain here,
Right.
So I'm just curious like whatthe what?
The gap is there?
Erik Dunteman (24:04):
right, you clearly understand it.
Brian Wang (24:06):
But what's like?
What's the?
You were referencing theblocker right.
Erik Dunteman (24:09):
What's like?
What do you?
Brian Wang (24:09):
notice thing that's blocking you.
Erik Dunteman (24:11):
This the size and my frustration of having talked
about this so much is.
I feel like I understand theproblem.
I don't know how to implementthe solution, or maybe I do not
implement the solution.
There's there's two blockersright now.
Brian Wang (24:24):
Yeah.
Erik Dunteman (24:26):
One is I need to find the energy and the passion
within myself in the first placeto come in with that fire.
It's not like I have a bunch ofpent up like intensity that I'm
just filtering and holding back.
I recognize I do want to bringmore intensity into my work and
(24:48):
there's been you know, just thepersonal emotional journey of
being a founder.
I'm not at peak when it comesto the intensity I'm bringing.
I've seen I've seen myself inin the past bring significant
intensity in a good way, likevery very good way.
that may be proud.
I'm currently not there, soblocker number one it feels like
(25:11):
I would be faking it.
I'm disingenuous to bring thatintensity in to the team.
Yeah, got it.
Blocker two there's still notthe trust that if I bring
intensity in and I exceed theline of what people want, that
they're able to walk it back,because ultimately it's a
spectrum of like low intensity,high intensity, somewhere in the
(25:32):
middle is what people want inorder to feel like they're doing
good work without being tomoralized.
And what we're saying here islike walk up the intensity until
you cross the threshold andthen trust that people are able
to basically step you back and,you know, land on that happy
spot.
So there's still the trust ofwill people?
(25:54):
Will people hate me?
Will people actually be willingto speak up?
I believe that they would be,but I haven't seen it in
practice because I haven'tpracticed it.
Brian Wang (26:07):
So well, it's a little bit of a catch 22 there.
Erik Dunteman (26:10):
Yeah, yeah, it definitely is.
It's one of those things likegiven a tech catch 22,.
Even if it seems logically likeaction isn't helpful, it's
better than just doing nothing.
Brian Wang (26:23):
So right, you listed like two of these things, right
.
So there's like, hey, I'mnoticing, I don't even have this
like authentic intensity tobring out now.
And then there's the secondthing around I don't know if I
can trust my team to.
You know, pull me back whenI've gone too far.
Which of those fields more ofthe blocker right now, if you
(26:46):
had to choose?
Erik Dunteman (26:48):
So the big problem is well the second one.
The team isn't walking me backand like, or I don't trust that
the team will give me thefeedback about overstepped.
Ultimately, that's the thing Iwant to solve, but I feel like
the core issue is actually thatfirst one, okay, or I call it
the parent issue.
(27:09):
The the next level up is theintensity I bring, because I
believe that a more intenseversion of myself would be
someone who's more willing tofigure out the second one.
Brian Wang (27:25):
Yeah, I got it.
Erik Dunteman (27:26):
I got it.
Yeah, it seems like it's right.
Brian Wang (27:28):
Well, I mean you can .
It's kind of like you're noteven going to have the problem
of oh, is my team going tocalibrate for me or feed?
Give me a feedback if you don'thave that sort of authentic
well of energy to drop on in thefirst place?
Erik Dunteman (27:45):
Right.
Brian Wang (27:45):
Yeah, yeah, so let's maybe go there for a second.
Erik Dunteman (27:51):
It feels like a bit of a side tangent, but it
does feel like the theoverreaching issue here.
Brian Wang (27:57):
Yeah, so tell me more about it, like you're
noticing that you haven't.
You can't even find the, theintensity right now, the energy,
although you've been in touchwith that before.
Yeah can just say more about itoverall.
Erik Dunteman (28:16):
Um, yeah.
So my motivations when Istarted in start up not just
banana, but five years ago whenI, when I went full time on the
start up, On the start up Um oron startups in general my
motivation was primarily fun andstatus.
I did startups because it wasfun and at the time I feel like
(28:42):
I was pretty naive.
So my opinion of what a cool 19year old cool, 21 year old at
the time Like this is 22.
This is just the coolest thingI could do.
I could be 430 under 30 likethis is sick.
I'll do pitch competitionsbeyond Shark Tank.
(29:03):
That was my definition ofstartup and that's one of the
reasons I got into it, because Ifelt like a cool status game.
So it was a lot easier for me.
If I'm having fun and ifpositive performance led to me
feeling high status, high ego,it was a reason for me to come
(29:23):
in with a fire and a reason forme to like advocate for myself
or create positive outcomes formyself, because it was directly
tied to some outcome.
Brian Wang (29:41):
You would feel driven to pursue those things.
Erik Dunteman (29:44):
If I bring intensity, I both have fun and I
have people around me thatinstant who will be like oh wow,
you're so intense.
I was posting on Snapchat andInstagram all the time like sort
of lifestyle hustler.
Brian Wang (29:56):
Yeah, I think there's this kind of like sense
of validation and significancething going on there.
Erik Dunteman (30:01):
Yeah, so I got the instant hit from that, so it
was able to continue Fastforward to today.
I've gotten mostly off ofsocial media because I think a
lot of my motivation is nolonger extrinsic, so it's a lot
harder to get that instant hit.
Additional thing is we'veraised at this point significant
(30:22):
money from investors, so thedrive to win isn't about what
could I do for myself.
It starts becoming a I havethis debt that I need to pay to
the people who took a shot on meand it feels more like I'm yeah
(30:46):
.
To use an analogy, imagineyou're saving up money.
If you have zero debt andyou're saving up 100k, that
feels great because you're likewow, look at me.
If you're at 100k debt andyou're just trying to pay that
off effectively, you're doingthe same things, but it feels
way, way worse, right.
Brian Wang (31:08):
Yeah, so I think?
Erik Dunteman (31:10):
Is that what it feels?
Brian Wang (31:11):
like, like, running and leading banana.
Right now it's like I'm diggingmyself out of that.
Erik Dunteman (31:19):
Yeah, I'm not having fun.
I'm fulfilling theresponsibility that I've put
myself into, and not just purelyinvestors, but also, just like
I have publicly said, I'm EricDuntiman, I'm building banana
and we're going to be the futureof AI computing.
Now I got to live up to that.
(31:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Brian Wang (31:45):
So at some point it sounds like it flipped from hey,
this is fun, this is excitingTo.
Oh man, now I have to do allthis stuff.
I've made these promises.
I have to fulfill myobligations.
You didn't use that word, butthis kind of I want to see if it
fits.
Erik Dunteman (32:05):
It's like yes, I mean, this is very, very
thematic to what I'm goingthrough right now, which is over
the last month.
I've been believing probablyone of the worst depressions
I've had in eight years, and thebig trigger words that I
realized were getting me intothis state were you're saying
(32:25):
obligations.
For me was like I ought to dosomething versus I want to do
something.
That is such a crippling feelingof I ought to do something
because it has you doing thingsthat you aren't bringing your
full intensity self into.
So recently been working moreon doing things that I want to
(32:46):
do and trusting that yes, Iought to do this laundry list of
things, but if I'm not at peakI'm not going to do well on
those things anyway, versus if Ifocus on myself, focus on
having fun, I bring a betterversion of myself into the
things that I ought to do andperhaps they feel like want to
(33:08):
do as once I actually get tothat point.
So this is We've touched in.
Like.
The other major thread of likeemotional things I've been going
through is yeah.
I've put more mentally.
I've positioned myself as Ihave a bunch of ought to's.
I ought to be a perfect founder.
I ought to create massivereturns for investors.
(33:30):
To do all that.
Brian Wang (33:32):
I ought to shield my team from accountability.
Yeah, exactly, exactly Like.
Erik Dunteman (33:37):
I put myself into the position.
Why should I expect somebodyelse who signed up like who's
putting themselves out on a limbto join me?
Why should I put that pressureon them?
Brian Wang (33:49):
What's interesting is hopefully this is not too
much of a tangent, but inlistening to that it almost
sounds like on some level youhave taken it upon yourself to
take responsibility like toomuch responsibility for yourself
and for others.
Like you know, you hear you havea bunch of people who have
(34:12):
voluntarily joined your company,said I'm going to go spend my
time and my energy on this teamand I'm signing up for something
that's going to requiresomething of me, and yet I hear
in just the way you'redescribing.
It's like whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa.
Like I got to make sure thatI'm taking on as much of the
(34:33):
burden as I can for these folks.
I got to shield them.
They can't handle that on somelevel, right, it's up to me to
make sure that everything goessmoothly for them and there's
just sense of like I need tokind of control it all as much
as I can.
It's important for you to dothat.
Erik Dunteman (34:57):
Yeah, this is going back to my visions of what
a toxic or negative manager isFor me.
Somebody and again, I haven'tworked in an organization where
I've been an employee, seen agreat manager and worked
extremely hard as an employee.
I think there is theoverwhelming sentiment that
(35:20):
employees like you shouldn'ttake advantage of them and our
employees.
They're working hard, like theyput in hours.
I think they're sacrificingthings within their own lives,
so I already feel like anestablished sense of guilt
around that.
So to demand more feels likesuch a tall ask.
Brian Wang (35:48):
What's making you think that?
Erik Dunteman (35:49):
you.
It's a taller ask for us tofail and we no longer pay
payroll.
We have to shut things downlike that.
It has a much worse ask, so ofcourse we need to make it work.
Brian Wang (36:03):
What's making you think that you couldn't say, hey
guys, I think we need to pushharder on this.
And what's making you not trustthat they might push back or
say no or offer somethingalternative?
Erik Dunteman (36:23):
That's funny how frequently this topic comes up
and how I still haven't learnedto trust that perhaps my
definition or my image of what'sgoing to go through people's
head Like I, haven't changedthat.
Brian Wang (36:43):
I want to just point something out.
I've heard you use the wordtrust a few times.
Erik Dunteman (36:49):
Yeah.
Brian Wang (36:50):
What does it mean to you?
Good question.
Erik Dunteman (36:52):
I don't want to get too meta-analytical here,
but the fact that I don't have aclear definition of the word
trust implies to me that I'vejust been using the word habit
or out of being able torepresent this idea versus
actually critically thinking.
Is trust the right word?
(37:12):
What even am I trying to definehere?
In the end, I don't want peopleto view me.
Can I swear?
Is this OK?
Yeah, I don't want people toview me as an asshole.
Stay with that.
(37:34):
Yeah, I want to be respected.
I think a lot of the reason Ido what I do, or my main
motivation, is to achieve thingsthat most don't In fact, very,
very, very few, if not zero,achieve.
(37:55):
So part of that requirespushing limits, and there's
still something uncomfortableabout actually putting that into
practice.
Brian Wang (38:06):
Let me go back to the asshole thing.
What happens if?
Some of the things are anasshole.
What do you have to feel inthat situation?
It's great.
Erik Dunteman (38:15):
Because when you actually think about it, it's
like, oh, while you talk aboutit, and if they decide they
don't want to be around you,they, it's their choice and they
could choose to leave.
Brian Wang (38:26):
You're still talking about it.
So let's say, I'm like Eric,you're a real asshole just now.
What does that?
Erik Dunteman (38:34):
feel.
Brian Wang (38:35):
Just get out of your head.
What does that feel like belowthe neck?
What does that feel like?
Erik Dunteman (38:39):
for you.
Yeah, it's in my chest, iswhere it is.
Brian Wang (38:44):
Stay with that.
Erik Dunteman (38:46):
Yeah.
Brian Wang (38:47):
Tell me about that feeling.
Erik Dunteman (38:55):
Connecting it to the sense of disappointing my
parents is like where thefeeling comes from of I am.
I'm a human trying to do mybest in the world.
Brian Wang (39:11):
Yeah.
Erik Dunteman (39:12):
And if I know that I've screwed up, which, if
somebody calls me an asshole,for me, my definition of that is
I've screwed up.
Ok, because I am a peoplepleaser, I want people to like
me.
If somebody says I'm an asshole, that's them telling me that I
(39:36):
failed.
That's the thing I derive a lotof joy from, which is people
liking me and appreciating me.
If somebody said, hey, eric,you were really an asshole there
, I would definitely I'd havethe political response of thank
(39:59):
you for this feedback.
I really appreciate that.
It was very brave of you to beable to tell me that.
I'm glad that we have this openspace where you feel safe
communicating that to me.
Brian Wang (40:09):
But underneath that your voice is like going real
monotone.
It's like you're like oh, thankyou for that.
Erik Dunteman (40:16):
Yeah.
Brian Wang (40:17):
Stay with that, the feeling in the chest, the
disappointment.
Just see if you can, justwithout analyzing it, is it just
to notice the energy there andhold it for a moment?
Erik Dunteman (40:35):
I definitely want to cry, and I don't know from
where that sensation is Sure,but it feels like if somebody
were to tell me I was being anasshole.
I have this facade that I keepup yeah.
(40:56):
And part of that is just likeI've learned to mask certain
parts of myself in order toappear more social more
charismatic.
More on top of things.
What's the part that wants tohide?
Brian Wang (41:11):
or what's the part that you're wanting to hide
right now?
Erik Dunteman (41:17):
So in that case I sort of the child in me.
Like I said, I called back to adisappointing parent and I
don't think it's specifically myparents but that idea of being
a child and realizing, oh no, Idid bad, and just crumbling into
this tiny fetal position let'stry something here.
(41:38):
Yeah.
Brian Wang (41:40):
So see if you can just contact that child the one
that's present here, right.
See, if you can just contactthat child the one that's
present here, right, see if youcan maybe create a little bit of
space psychologically betweenyou, your awareness and the
child and just really tune in tobe present to that.
(42:03):
And whatever feeling of hurt orupset or fear may be present,
just allow that too, right, theymay just show up as sensations
in the body.
Erik Dunteman (42:21):
Mm-hmm, I'm not breathing.
That's one sensation that'scoming up.
Brian Wang (42:26):
All right, so Forgot to breathe Great, noticing
Breathe into that.
So allow yourself to breatheinto those sensations.
I'll see the belly if you can.
Erik Dunteman (42:56):
I've had this come up in other parts of my
life, this same exact feeling ofthe facade coming down,
everything crumbling and justbeing a child behind it.
Brian Wang (43:05):
Yeah.
So let's just assume the childneeds something from you right
now.
You might even just ask itmurderously, if you like what
does it need from you?
What might you be hearing?
Erik Dunteman (43:33):
Ah, the child definitely needs to know that.
I know that it's doing its best, that even if it's screwed up
in that moment, it is still good.
It is still trying hard.
I'm still proud of it.
Brian Wang (43:49):
Yeah, great.
So even when it screws up, evenwhen you screw up, you can see
it's trying hard, it's tryingits best, it's still good.
What happens if you just sendyourself that recognition or
(44:12):
send that child part of you,that recognition right now?
Erik Dunteman (44:31):
Well, naturally I have the question of what is
this fix?
Like I send the recognition andthen there's, like a cool, a
validate child, but I still needto put that facade back up.
Brian Wang (44:48):
Why.
Erik Dunteman (44:55):
I'm a CEO of a funded company Feels like I
can't be a child and thatchildish version of me Well, I
want to make a distinction.
Brian Wang (45:06):
I'm not suggesting that you show up to your
meetings like a child who'seasily wounded.
Yes what happens if you're ableto show up to your team where
you're able to be present withthe child that might feel hurt,
(45:27):
but having no need to shield, tofacade between yourself and the
team.
So you show up like an asshole.
Sometimes People give youfeedback.
Erik Dunteman (45:51):
I don't know if he's cool talking me, talking
about him.
I think my co-founder isexceptionally good at this.
I'm just bringing his curiouschild like self to everything
and then accepting feedback asit comes and iterating.
There's much less of a facade,so it's not the solution, but I
(46:12):
at least have someone to look tofor a positive example there.
Brian Wang (46:16):
So you have evidence that it can be done, where
someone can behave in a certainway in a certain ecosystem.
When they get feedback from theecosystem, they adjust and
they're able to keep iterating.
Oh well, maintaining theirchildlike wonder sounds like.
Erik Dunteman (46:43):
There is a line to be drawn, though of.
Ultimately, a lot of the reasonfor a facade is you want to be
able to achieve something, and Idon't want the version of me
that I bring to become a burden.
I don't want it to be like adaycare of Eric.
Brian Wang (47:06):
I don't think your team wants that.
I don't think anyone wants that.
Erik Dunteman (47:09):
So how do I simultaneously do both like
bring the more childlike versionof myself more a vulnerable
version of myself which opens meup to trying things and
iterating things, which is anamazing things that kids?
Do they're vulnerable, they'resoft, but they haven't built up
(47:31):
that armor, so they're willingto try things.
I just don't want to beuninspiring and I don't want to
use people's time because Ithink I'm already asking so much
of that.
Brian Wang (47:52):
So what does it look like to do everything you just
said iterate, be willing to getit wrong, try a bunch of things
and not needing anyone elsearound you to take care of you,
but rather to show up withknowing that, yeah, you're going
(48:16):
to get wounded, you're going toget hurt, you're going to get
your feelings hurt, and then youcan take care of yourself in
that scenario so that you're nota burden for others.
Just imagine that's possiblefor a moment.
Erik Dunteman (48:33):
Yeah, so I was immediately imagining it not
being possible.
Do this A few into how I'mreceiving it?
Could I ask contrary questionsto help navigate this?
Brian Wang (48:55):
This is your time.
You can ask any question youwant, yeah.
Erik Dunteman (49:00):
When does the work get done?
Like this is ultimately andthis is why I'm starting this
conversation is more work needsto get done, and it feels
counterintuitive to add this tothe quantity of things I have to
(49:23):
think about and spend time on.
And you can do it to an extreme, but in the end it's hard to be
simultaneously a founder and amonk who lives in the mountains
(49:44):
and says nothing.
So what's the extent of thisself-work or not, as what is the
extent?
Brian Wang (49:55):
What are you doing?
Erik Dunteman (49:56):
without sacrificing the fact that food
has to be consumed.
Bills need to be paid, salariesneed to be paid, sales calls
need to be taken.
Brian Wang (50:13):
Yeah, let me reflect on that for a moment, eric, I
don't think we're talking aboutyou going to be a monk in the
mountain and rejecting the restof the world.
You do have a lot going on that.
You obviously things that youcare about and you want to
advance forward.
So I don't think what we'retalking about is let me hide
(50:35):
away in a cave now for sixmonths and sort my shit out, and
now I can be a good leader.
I think what we're talkingabout is seeing more clearly the
way you've been going aboutthings and getting honest about
what results am I creatingthrough the way I've been
(50:58):
approaching things, and is thatas quo?
So you sort of framed it as hey, this seems like extra work.
I need to add extra work now toget better results, but I think
it's actually more.
How do I change the way I'mdoing this in the first place so
that I'm getting differentresults?
Erik Dunteman (51:20):
I had a breakthrough or a reframing just
now.
Visualization that helped.
I'm rather treating it so.
Previously it was, thevisualization was a child with a
rigid shell around it.
And if that shell crumbles thenthe child crumbles and you
realize, oh, the human is muchsmaller, much more childish than
(51:42):
you previously thought, whereasa different visualization that
really helped me here just nowwas the idea of being in a
meeting with my team, but thereal me is standing off to the
(52:03):
side and there's a projection ofmyself in the meeting
participating, and thatprojection is previously that
was the shell, the facade.
The projection is whatever islike some transformation on
(52:24):
myself that I feel is morepresentable to the team.
But because I'm operatingthrough that projection and not
through myself, I'm almost noteven participating in the
conversation.
The real me is off to the side.
So I think maybe the wordchildish I know a lot of the
(52:45):
emotions come from the childishfeeling of failing or
disappointing people but I thinkit's helped to reframe this as
a sort of like I'm operatingthrough a proxy, I'm operating
through something that's not me.
Therefore, of course, I'm notgoing to be as effective Whereas
(53:10):
putting myself into thatmeeting.
The meeting is still gettingdone, but it's a more true
version of myself.
Brian Wang (53:18):
So let me just make sure I'm following.
So which one is the one thatyou've been using?
Erik Dunteman (53:25):
more generally, Previously, we've been using the
idea of I'm operating myself.
It is myself operating, but Ihave a facade, and if that
facade crumbles, there's reallya child behind it.
And while you were talking oneminute ago, I had a different
visualization of, basically,rather than a child being nested
(53:50):
within me, I'm more like me,I'm across the room and there's
some projection of myself.
That's actually doing theengagement.
The interaction.
That's the thing that just cameup for me now.
So previously we'd been talkingmore about the child analogy.
Brian Wang (54:10):
Right and this feels more empowering.
I'm curious, how does it feelfor you like this visualization
of kind of this way of being orthis way of operating.
Erik Dunteman (54:22):
It makes it not feel like a regression to drop
the facade and go back tosomething that's more genuinely
me, Because previously thegenuine version of myself is
very more childlike, which Ididn't see as having a place at
the meeting, if that makes sense.
Brian Wang (54:45):
I think there's a distinction here between showing
up like a child and showing upauthentically.
Erik Dunteman (54:58):
Yes, and maybe that's why my new analogy makes
a bit more sense, or at least ithelps distinguish those two of
the goal is not to show up likea child.
The goal is to show up as incaught, an unfiltered version of
myself, and not filtered fromlike a sense of.
Brian Wang (55:20):
I guess maybe I am filtering myself, but I mean
just to be clear, on some levelwe're always filtering ourselves
, right?
Yeah, I think it's very rarefor us to enter a space,
especially a professional one,where we're 100% authentic.
I think even authenticauthenticity can be a loaded
word.
But I think it's important forus to make a distinction that,
(55:42):
like a child, they act out theiremotions in a completely
unregulated way oftentimes,especially when they're younger,
right, where they might bereally sensitive, and then, when
they feel hurt, they're goingto really express that right,
(56:03):
tears, rage, et cetera, right.
And so I think that that sortof behavior, at least from where
I'm sitting, is kind of whatwe're saying we don't want.
Are we on the same page on that?
Erik Dunteman (56:17):
Yeah, correct, I don't want that.
Yeah, I want authenticity, butI don't want to have that.
Brian Wang (56:24):
Yeah, Great.
So, yeah, we're starting to getto the close here.
I want to maybe that's a greatquestion here If you were to
define the way you do want toshow up in these spaces.
Maybe it's that analogy thatyou were using earlier, that
(56:47):
visualization you were usingjust earlier.
But I'm wondering if you canjust describe it more.
Erik Dunteman (56:59):
I want to show up as if I have helium in my body.
I'm floating, I'm bouncing.
I think the word fun isultimately the most childlike
thing that I do want to bringinto it, because fun for me is
the fuel for so many otherpositive things that I could
bring in.
Brian Wang (57:19):
Great.
Erik Dunteman (57:27):
Certainly less stress, I think not naivete.
I don't want to bring in thatin, but I do want rather than
just being locked up in tenseagain on the helium thing just
feeling like I'm just floatingaround having fun, ultimately
doing the same things andprobably doing them better being
(57:54):
able to fail and get up easily,something that children are
especially good at- it's justfun and viewing it as part of
the process.
I think the more we the more weagonize on each individual fall,
the bigger they seem.
I think the goal is to makefalls feel small, so you just
(58:15):
get over them and a few minuteslater you've forgotten that.
That vehicle.
I just want to smile and laughmore, and do so with the team.
Yeah, also, just like fasterlearning, right Of discover
(58:47):
something cool and notice oh,this actually breaks the frame
versus stressfully hanging ontomy previous definition of how
things worked.
Brian Wang (59:01):
Right, yeah, awesome .
So you just I don't know whyyou use the word helium.
I always imagine the balloonfloating around and it's like it
can get knocked around, butit's still floating, right, it's
still ascending.
Yeah, I, just as we're comingto a close here, I love the
(59:23):
visuals that you just providedthere, eric, in the spirit of
just starting small what's asmall way you can start to
really embody what you justdescribed, as you kind of move
forward to showing up to theteam.
Erik Dunteman (59:55):
I have.
I have something that came tomind.
I don't know if it's thecorrect answer, but I'm asking
the word why a lot, and not in acondescending like why, but
more like hey, why, Like let'sexplore this.
This sounds fun, More out ofthe hey.
(01:00:16):
There's something about youthat I don't know and I'm just
curious, like why.
I feel like that's something Icould bring into my interactions
with the team, that I'd learnsomething.
It'd feel more human, and beingmore human ultimately leads to
having more fun.
(01:00:36):
In my opinion, it's veryimportant not to do it
confrontationally, but I thinkit could be done in a way that
sparks conversation thatotherwise wouldn't happen.
So that's one thing.
I don't want to like fake happy, I don't want to fake smile, so
(01:01:02):
I wouldn't know what to do onthat front.
But I think bringing bringingmore of my child like wonder,
also just like releasing myexpectation that I should know
everything, Because that opensyou up to being more wondrous.
(01:01:25):
I think those two things wouldprobably or it's better than not
doing this, and they're worthtrying, and they're the things
that currently have come to myhead Great.
Brian Wang (01:01:43):
Yeah, so like when I hear you describe that showing
with why and there's like anon-confrontational sort of way
of doing it there's, there'sjust like open curiosity, it's
like I actually really want tofind out more.
I want to know more.
I'm like, oh, like that doesn'tsomething's.
I'm missing something there.
Cool, like there's somethingfor you to learn there.
Right, yeah, there's alightness to it.
Erik Dunteman (01:02:04):
Yeah yeah, lightness is a good word, like
the helium, yeah yeah, oh, why?
Like, oh cool, like let's floatover there and like try that or
learn something.
How exciting.
Brian Wang (01:02:13):
Yeah, yeah, cool.
Well, I'm excited to hear howlightness and the curiosity and
the wonder kind of make its wayin for you as you're kind of
moving forward on this yeah.
Erik Dunteman (01:02:28):
Looking forward yeah.
Brian Wang (01:02:31):
Any final final reflections or thoughts before
we close out here.
Erik Dunteman (01:02:39):
I'm very impressed and surprised by the
amount of thematic leaps we wentthrough here, because
originally I was talking aboutCaesar being in front of an army
battle, yeah, and then laterit's like oh, I am a child, that
wasn't something I expected tocome off, so I'm feeling really
grateful for that.
This felt like a good session,so great.
(01:03:01):
That's my main observation here.
Brian Wang (01:03:05):
Awesome.
Erik Dunteman (01:03:05):
Appreciate it, Nice Brian.
Brian Wang (01:03:07):
I appreciate you.
Thanks, eric, appreciate you.
We all have a desire to beliked and approved, but when
taken too far we can enterpeople pleasing territory For
Eric.
He knew that the team neededBoulder leadership.
In fact they had asked himdirectly to hold him accountable
to the results.
But Eric struggled to find theintensity the team was asking
for because he worried abouttaking advantage of his team and
(01:03:30):
that would mean he's an assholeas a coach.
This was a huge clue for me.
That's why I experimented withcalling Eric an asshole right
there and observing his reaction.
His body told us more than hiswords were ever going to
Tightness in the chest, tearsbehind the eyes.
That allowed us to move pastthe intellectual and touch the
emotional experience of it all.
(01:03:51):
This is where Eric's youngerself came up, the inner child
that worries it's done somethingwrong.
The breakthrough came when Ericrealized he didn't need to show
up as a vulnerable child, butrather he could be his adult
self.
That led with intensity whilemaintaining a sense of internal
safety.
From there he could tap into asense of fun, lightness and
wonder.
This was a great example of howwe get blocked not by our
(01:04:13):
intellectual knowing but ouremotional knowing.
Eric might know he's notactually an asshole, but in the
moment it feels true.
By connecting directly withthis part and showing it a
different way, he was able tofind a new path forward.
So here are some actionablenuggets for you.
One, have clear discussionswith your team on how you want
to collectively handle feedbackand accountability.
(01:04:35):
Two, if you find yourselfgetting stuck, even though you
quote unquote know what youshould be doing, then you're
probably resisting an emotionalexperience.
Getting unstuck means movingtoward that experience.
Finally, whatevervulnerabilities you find in
yourself, treat them withcompassion.
It is the best way to find calmand allow your more mature self
(01:04:56):
to take the wheel.
Thank you for listening toSlowdown to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please rate it in your favorite
podcasting app.
If you are a founder who wouldlike help in reaching the next
level through coaching, or ifyou'd like to come on the show,
please contact me atdashingleadershipcom.
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