March 4, 2024 • 47 mins
Ever found yourself glued to your phone, oblivious to a loved one's story about their day? Or felt guilty for focusing on work when you just want to enjoy time with family? Eric Bahn, co-founder of Hustle Fund, joined me to explore the struggle many of us face: turning off our work brains and being fully present with loved ones.
We explore questions like...
- What prevents us from putting work aside?
- What does it mean to be a good parent?
- How do we escape unsatisfying feedback loops?
Watch the session on YouTube
Find Eric on X/Twitter and Linkedin.
Enjoyed this episode? Ready to take your leadership and personal growth to the next level? Please visit my website to learn more about coaching with me.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Wang (00:00):
Okay, be honest.
How many times have you checkedyour phone in the last hour, or
even in the last 10 minutes?
So many of us are addicted toour devices.
We check them constantly, evenwhen we're around the people
that we love the most in thisworld.
Yet when we reach the end ofour lives, none of us are going
to say, gee, I wish I had spentless time with my kids and more
time answering email on my phone.
(00:21):
So how do we put down the phoneand become more present?
That is what we tackle in thiscoaching session with the
co-founder of Hustle Fund, ericBond.
We explore topics like whatdoes it mean to be a good parent
, and how do we escapeunsatisfying feedback loops?
And even, how do we listen toour body and the signals that it
sends us and use that as a wayto point to what we really
(00:42):
desire in our lives?
Okay, I hope you enjoy.
Hey, eric, great to see youtoday.
Good to see you, my old friend.
Yeah, I just to speak a littlebit to the audience.
I think Eric is someone whoprobably needs no introduction.
He's the co-founder of HustleFund, who, if you haven't seen
him, go follow him.
He's amazing.
On Twitter, jokes abound.
(01:02):
Such a great guy, amazinginvestor to founders.
Eric Bahn (01:07):
As a former founder himself and, I would argue, a
current founder, yeah, brian,really appreciate this
opportunity, as I've beenwatching your career as well and
hearing so many founders talkabout what you've done in their
lives, actually as their coach.
You know, for today's session,I want to talk a little bit
about presence and explore whatthat means for me.
(01:28):
So in our last conversation aswe're preparing for this
interview, I was talking abouthow I have a lot of struggle
about showing up and being fullypresent, especially with my own
family, and I think that's alot of it was born from this
conditioning that I've had asfor having this long career as a
founder, trying to be reallyresponsive, kind of being in a
(01:49):
really reactive mode, respondingto every email within one hour.
And I got young kids.
I got an eight year old son, afive year old daughter, as well
as a terrific wife that I'vebeen with for 21 years at this
point, and I find myself in aposition where I struggle
between I need to share a goodexample for my family and being
present with them.
So if we're watching a movietogether or just playing
(02:11):
together, I just want to showthem that I'm there for that.
Yeah, at the same time, there'salways a phone that's close by
and this anxiety that I'mmissing a message, I'm missing a
call or a text from an LP orfounder, and I find myself that
every five minutes throughout mywaking days just checking and
checking and checking, and Ican't seem to reconcile how to
(02:35):
find and explore that presencewith this anxiety of maybe
strong from a little bit ofpeople pleasing as well as my
personality, of just being ableto be there for also the other
people in my work and my lifetoo, outside of my family too.
So it's been a long one.
It's been a couple of yearssince I've been grappling with
this, but I'm not really makingmuch headway on it.
Brian Wang (02:55):
Yeah, oof, all right .
Just listening to that it'ssomething that that dynamic is
familiar for me personally.
It's something I see in so manyother founders and just
generally high achievers, andmaybe the first thing I notice
in listening to that is the wordreconcile.
So from that I'm hearingthere's a sense for you that
(03:20):
there's like I can be present.
And being present means notreally putting my attention into
work when I'm with family, andso there's like an experience
where I can just really be fullywith my kids, my wife and then
whatever's happening on my phone.
A completely different world.
I'll get back to that when it'stime to go do that, and right
(03:44):
now it's kind of feeling likeyou're split.
Is that a kind of like a fairdescription of what's happening
for you?
Eric Bahn (03:50):
I think so, and maybe underlying all this is a bit of
guilt.
So we actually do an exerciseevery year with our family
around Christmas where, as afamily, will come together, do a
retrospective on the year andthen try to name and write down
the values that we care aboutfor the coming year.
And it's a nice conversationand we write it down, we print
(04:11):
it on a piece of paper and putit in our dining room in a frame
.
And the very first year that wedid this exercise, the first
line was quality time andquantity time was a value that
we cared about.
So on the quantity time front,you know, I'm lucky enough to be
in a role of my wife to wherewe have some flexibility, where
I work from home, I can see myfamily and I do feel like I get
(04:34):
a lot of quantity.
It's the quality part where I'mjust like wow, like I was so
excited when we wrote down thisvalue and I'm not living it
consistently, and that has a lotof cascading effects of
emotions and, primarily, guilttoo.
Brian Wang (04:50):
I suspect correct me if I'm wrong the guilt is
because you're noticing a gapbetween kind of how you want to
approach that and how youcurrently are.
Is that right?
Eric Bahn (04:59):
Yeah, it's something that we've named, as a family,
as one of our top priorities.
Yeah, it's like reallyimportant.
It's very important to us, andjust not being able to show up
for it in the way that I want issomething that just creates a
lot of anxiety.
It's just like why can't I dothis and am I modeling a
behavior for my own kids withtheir families in the future too
(05:20):
?
So there's some of that.
I think mental gymnastics too.
That comes to the core of this.
Brian Wang (05:27):
Yeah, and just from that I want to name that I can
sense how much care there is onyour end.
I know you'd be a very heartfeltindividual and there's a lot of
love and there's a lot of careand you're really looking out
for not just am I living up tomy word, but also what impact is
this having on my kids?
What message is this sending tomy kids?
(05:48):
Because of course, they'rewatching me and us parents for
all of our cues or their cues, Ishould say right.
So the first thing I want tosay is clearly this matters to
you and your heart's in theright place, otherwise we
wouldn't be having thisconversation Now.
There's a few different placeswe could look into, but I guess
(06:14):
you mentioned that you've justbeen struggling with it for some
time I think it's a couple ofyears at least.
So I suspect that you havetried a few different things to
become more present, to havemore present quality time with
your family, and if that'saccurate, I'm curious just like
what have you noticed has gonewell, has failed all of that in
(06:40):
sort of that quest to spend morequality time or present time
with your family?
Eric Bahn (06:44):
Yeah, you know, as you're asking that question,
it's also bringing up one morepiece of context.
I think that's sort of like thedemon diagrapple with and I'll
try to answer that just secondfor that question or the actual
question.
So where I justify, I think,for myself why it makes sense
for me to be looking at my phoneall the time, is that I also
(07:04):
really take the role of being abreadwinner within my family
really seriously.
My wife actually does prettywell for herself as a founder,
so that's part that's a littlebit weird about this, but we're
both founders, we're kind ofincomes are very spiky at times
(07:25):
and we do have a pretty goodsavings from previous career
stuff, but it's not really in mymind.
So the way that I think Ijustify oh, I should be working
a lot is because I'm providingfor the family.
But I just think that if I wereto objectively look at it,
that's actually an inconsistentperspective or a wrong
(07:48):
perspective in some ways,because the reality is like our
process is pretty good and Ishould just trust it and the
money's coming in and we're notstarving or going to lose our
house next week, but a littlebit of, I think, some of that
immigrant trauma of justscarcity mindset is playing into
that.
So I want to raise that also asone piece of context.
(08:12):
And then I guess, in terms ofshowing up the things that have
worked, at least in the past, is, I think, isolating at least a
very small period of time tostart.
So dinner I have to eat, so tomy kids.
Usually we're using utensils onboth hands, so it's not really
pragmatic anyway to be usingyour phone or anything like that
(08:34):
.
But there are devices on thetable sometimes which I don't
like, so removing those, I think, has helped.
The other thing too that wekind of satiate the presence is
if we go to a different place.
We travel like a weekend tripto the beach or something.
Everyone loves it.
We love traveling so much andwe don't want to be playing with
our devices when we get toexplore something new.
(08:55):
But that said, I'm not going tospend money to just be present.
I want that, just like evenwhen I walk in from the garage
to my house, just feel like I'mhere.
Kids, let's go make a fork orsomething like that.
Right?
Brian Wang (09:11):
Right, yeah, so great.
I just pointed out there areenvironmental factors that can
help you in some ways to sort ofprevent you from grabbing your
phone in some sense.
Right, oh, if the device is outof sight then it's not easy for
me to go reach for it.
If we're out on vacation, we'rein a completely different
(09:32):
context, different mindset, butit's in that day to day, it's in
that like on a standard day orweek, you're noticing that pull
and thank you for sharing thatpart about identity.
Right, like, oh, I'm thebreadwinner and I know that.
Like, yeah, logically,rationally, that's not really
(09:54):
something I need to stress abouttoo much.
Right, you look at the numbers,you look at how your partner's
doing.
It's like great, like, on paperit seems like we're safe, and
yet there's like some feeling orpressure that you're maybe
putting on yourself around tolike be the breadwinner or, like
you said, justify the pull.
And so I'm curious if we canmaybe examine that a little bit
(10:18):
more closely.
Like, specifically, maybe walkme through a situation, maybe a
recent experience or commonexperience, where you're on one
hand, like okay, hey, kids, hey,family, it's time to be in dad
mode, right, family mode, andthen that loss of presence comes
(10:42):
up, right when that urge, likethat sort of action urge to go
reach for your phone, check yourmessages, comes up.
And if you can just walk usthrough that a little bit slowly
, like just hmm, like step bystep, like what is it feeling?
Like what's happening rightbefore that?
Whatever, whatever details kindof come alive for you as you're
(11:03):
stepping into, that would begreat.
Eric Bahn (11:05):
I've never done this exercise before, so I'm pretty
excited to explore this with you, Brian.
Okay, I'll take a reallymundane example which is
normally how I end my day.
I start relatively early.
I try to begin work aroundseven or eight.
I'm very lucky enough to havesome support where there's drop
off for the kids and we stillhave our nanny for more months
(11:26):
at least to do that kind ofstuff, so I can just jump right
into it.
I come here to the garage mostdays where I work and then I go
through all my meetings andeverything like that, and then
at the end of the day, which isaround five technically, I
always try to get to inbox zeroevery day.
And actually one of the strangeidentities I've developed is I
(11:48):
use this tool called superhuman,which is an email client, and I
am within, I think, the topfive or top six longest inbox
zero streak users in history ofsuperhuman.
It's something like 300 weeksor something.
Brian Wang (12:01):
Okay, so you're like really wanting to keep that
streak going.
I'm guessing, yeah.
Eric Bahn (12:05):
And I think like this , there's like this, like very
satisfying cleanliness of justending the day knowing that
there's nothing left in thereRight now.
Brian Wang (12:12):
can we, let's let's pause for a second.
Sorry to cut you off, butbriefly.
What's what makes it importantfor you to do inbox zero every
day?
Eric Bahn (12:23):
I think there's a satisfaction of one does a
complete completeness and justchecking out something.
That feels great.
But even even beyond that, it'sknowing that the constituents
whom I'm serving of which thereare many, I have investors, I
have founders, I have teammatesthat I know that I've actually
served them as well and havebeen able to unblock them on a
(12:45):
question or some sort of tasksthat they needed, which is
usually what the inboxrepresents for me.
So knowing that I've taken careof my people, I think feels
really good.
And then this is where itstarts to get kind of messy.
So you go in, it's like fiveo'clock, my family's here, we
got like to prepare for dinnerand like some evening activities
(13:05):
and things like that.
But the problem with email isthat it just keeps on coming and
we weren't a global fund, soSingapore and Asia, like Europe,
they're all waking up or doingtheir thing too Right.
And the anxiety of knowing thatthere is other messages coming
in, people that I need tounblock, I think, starts to
build and build and build.
And where I think I feel a lotof guilt is I am probably
(13:30):
actively prioritizing theirneeds over even my children's
needs or my wife's needs at thatmoment and that really messes
with my head Because, right, onetime again I can say that I'm
providing for the family, got togo back to garage, but I'm not
too.
When my kids are old andlooking back at their childhood,
I don't want them to think likedad just always was in the
garage, just like talking toother people instead of me,
(13:53):
right, and that's like theexcuse that, like I was
providing, might not land aswell.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly, youknow, my wife is amazing.
She's also a coach, like you,right, and you know there's I
don't know why this is coming up, but I actually have like
(14:13):
conversations with her everyonce in a while of just like you
know, if I go away, likesomehow I die, get hit by a bus
or something, you know, I have aplan for you guys on how my
insurance money, like everythingwill play out so that you'll be
financially secure, right, yeah, and I say this over and over
and over again, like a couple oftimes a year, and her response
is, like you know, what's moreimportant for us is that you are
(14:36):
here for a long time, becausethe money doesn't matter if
you're not here.
Right, and yeah, she said thisto me, I think, in the last six
months and at that moment it hitme much harder of like, wow, I
think I have a problem here.
I've just been really addictedto my device or work or
something.
Yeah yeah, that was reallypainful to feel.
Brian Wang (14:57):
Can you say more about that, like how it hit you?
I think it's part of being abreadwinner.
Eric Bahn (15:03):
There's a great satisfaction in knowing that you
know you can provide a life foryour family that is quite
comfortable, you know, cool home, environment, great
neighborhood, great vacationsand things like that.
And I think I've tied thatreally directly to like a
monetary amount, like afinancial independence amount,
Right, and it's not to say we'relike lacking in any of these
(15:27):
regards, but like it's I think Iput too much emphasis of just
like this much cash allows us tohave this much life, Right,
yeah.
And then where I kind of losemyself on the equation is just
like you know, where do I fit inthis stuff?
Like what does it mean to belike a good dad, a present dad,
a present husband, a presentfriend?
(15:48):
And for some reason it's reallyeasy to subtract yourself from
this calculus too.
Brian Wang (15:56):
Let me see if this fits.
It's like almost like I'm afather too, right, so I can
relate to some extent.
It's like if I can Bring in acertain amount of money, then
I've like, I've done my, I'vedone a great job as a father,
all right.
At least I've like done theprovider thing, yeah, and and
(16:17):
great like I've fulfilled thatand that's that's kind of one
element.
And then, and then you'rehearing from your family.
But actually what we want isyou, eric, it's not really about
the money.
So there's like this mismatchthere.
Eric Bahn (16:32):
Yeah, and the interesting thing about this is
I know that my wife is totallycorrect.
I mean, growing up, I Lived ina neighborhood which had a lot
of professionals and I have seenExtremely wealthy families with
very non-present dads.
Yeah so they had great homes,great toys, really really cool
vacations, but Really resentfulchildren At the same time of.
(16:59):
Just like you know, I had tolike figure it out myself Like
where were you dad?
Like I, like you missed my highschool graduation, even because
you're working on a salesmeeting, right and and Is that
like what?
Brian Wang (17:11):
you're saying just now.
Is that something you saw orthat's something you experienced
yourself?
What you're saying?
Eric Bahn (17:14):
not for me.
My dad worked a lot too.
He was a very, very busy doctor, so my time with him was on the
weekends, and so I felt somedegree of this.
But what I do think he did wellwas, even though we had less
quality time the Sorry, lessquantity time the quality time
was actually very high, andLater on in my life I should
(17:35):
learn that he was dealing with alot of shit, I mean like tons
of racism, because he wasrunning a medical practice.
There's always like lawsuits andthings like this, and I had no
idea because, you know, wheneverhe was home and ready, like he
was just he's like, you know,I'm here for you, right, but but
was more my friends, family'sexperience, which is just, I
(17:56):
seen the lack of the qualitytime and the lack of the
quantity Time combined and itjust created, I think, a lot of
trauma for those people.
So, until actually, I think ITotally see what.
What's wrong with this.
Yeah, emotionally, though, oror I guess, in some sort of part
of my soul, like it's reallyhard to relinquish, like this
notion that I gotta stop workingat some point during the day.
(18:18):
So, and that inbox zero part islike one part of just how I end
it.
But like again, like emailsbubble up again.
Brian Wang (18:25):
Let's go back to that, because what I hear is
like there's like you'renoticing that there's a part of
that, that job, the I need tounlock people.
Yeah, that feels.
You said it's it's hard torelinquish, right.
So I'm here like there's likethis man it's like really hard
to let go of, yeah, and so I'mwondering, going back to like
(18:46):
the specific, so it's 5 pm, youhit inbox zero, great.
And then you also know thatthere are there are emails and
messages coming in, and so let'ssay you make the conscious
decision I'm gonna make this up,but you make this the conscious
decision to say you know what,those messages can wait until
tomorrow, or at least like untilafter the kids are in bed.
(19:10):
And in that world, what do younotice?
You start to feel having madethat decision.
Eric Bahn (19:19):
I've been forced into those kind of decisions before,
in the sense that you know, ifI'm like on a, we usually take
like a nice trip right afterschool ends, right for like two
weeks or something, and A lot oftimes it's in places where the
internet's not that great, likemaybe we might go camping, right
, and actually it's one of myfavorite activities.
For this reason, it's just likeI am camping.
(19:40):
There was literally no internet, and Very quickly within two
days, I find that I'vereconditioned myself into just
like starting to not worry aboutthis kind of thing, and it
feels great.
All the stuff starts to feelway more present.
Colors feel brighter, foodtastes better, right, that's not
the reality of day-to-day life,though, right, I mean,
(20:02):
internet's awesome at my house.
So, yeah, you know, the idea ofwaiting is is hard for me
because you know, brian, when Iknow your background quite well
like you're Founders, just likeI was for a long time and
there's also kind of a littlebit of a pride, maybe a little
bit of gamification, a bunch ofjust about being a known as a,
(20:25):
as a founder who's reallyresponsive.
Right, if someone has a question, you unblock them quick, or if,
like a client or someone thatyou sold something to has an
issue like you, unblock thatreally fast, yeah, and it's
actually a great way of buildingan amazing reputation in
business.
I think it's just being likethis reliable, super fast
responding person that you know24-7 is just gonna get get you
(20:46):
what you need, all right, and Ithink as a young man you can
sort of get away with that.
Or young woman, right.
I'm just like, yeah, that'slike a neat way of building
brand, but, but that's not aneat way, I think, of living
life is what you start torealize Way too late, like it's
gonna be probably ten years ofsaying like to myself, like this
is unsustainable, andespecially once the kids pop out
(21:07):
, yeah, or your marriage isstarting to suffer.
Brian Wang (21:10):
Yeah, so I Totally get that.
You understand that on a, on anintellectual basis and I'm with
you, I I also, like I'm on thesame page it can be a
competitive advantage to bereally, really responsive.
Let's say that you go back tothat situation I posed, though.
So it's like, okay, now I'm notgonna respond, even just for
(21:32):
like 12 hours to these messages.
Yeah, right, so I'm not the theincredibly fast, responsive
person that you just described.
What happens, then, for you?
What's the experience like?
Eric Bahn (21:46):
Probably a lot of anxiety.
I mean just like Knowing thatthere could be just like issues
waiting.
I think the first place thatI'm thinking what is is how I do
feel actually in those kinds ofmoments.
Yeah, I think it's just anxietyof just like there's issues
waiting that I'm not unblockingat this point okay.
Brian Wang (22:08):
So I want to invite us to slow down and get a little
more curious about that.
So anxiety can often be verymental, but something that we do
Far less frequently as aculture is it's just to
understand what is it like tofor us to experience that in our
bodies.
So when you bring up theanxiety, like what do you
(22:29):
actually most notice thatphysically in the body?
Eric Bahn (22:32):
It's on my left side, right above my shoulder blade,
so, and in fact, that musclespretty tense right now, yeah, so
whenever I'm feeling any stress, anxiety in my life, it's this
part right here, okay, right,yeah.
And and the beautiful thingabout aging and doing work with
like a coach like yourself andI've had coaches in the past is
(22:54):
like Now, whenever I'm startingto feel that, even if I can't
name it, it's like a signal tome of like you there's you need
to change something, becauselike something is really making
you feel that right now In yourlife.
Brian Wang (23:05):
so I'm feeling it right here, yeah so if you just
to Center your attention on tothat area of your shoulder right
now, mm-hmm, and simply allowit to be there, no need for it
to go away.
You're just getting curiousabout it, right?
If you were giving it voice, itwere saying something to you.
(23:28):
What would it be saying?
Eric Bahn (23:29):
man, it's kind of a dark place.
So I think what it's sayingright now is I'm a bit of a
frail person, like I've gottensome pretty serious illnesses
over my life, some direction haskilled me, so a part of me
actually of what this is sayingis, like You're not gonna live
that much longer, so if that'sthe case, then you need to rush
(23:50):
to like provide for your familyin the event that you pass away.
That's actually literally whatthis part of the shoulder is
saying.
Yeah, it's a very and it's avery demonic voice right now.
Brian Wang (24:03):
Yeah yeah, that sounds really harsh.
At the same time, I also hearthat it's really it's wanting
your family to be okay as well.
Eric Bahn (24:13):
I think there's also a little like a lot of ego here
too.
It's like great, you know,you're just a, you know, make
something cool too.
You know like maybe it's nicethat like also people know you
did something good for them too.
All right, like I.
No doubt that's also anarcissistic like core there too
.
Well, yeah, there is definitelylike a lot of genuine like you
(24:34):
know your kids, your wife, Likethey're gonna be set up right if
you just get them set up.
Yeah, I'm hard.
Brian Wang (24:42):
Yeah, okay.
So there's like this, thisanxious part of you that seems
to drive so much of even justthose simple urges to pick up
the phone, check your email.
If you take a moment to get toknow it, it's kind of sending
this message of, like Eric,you're going to die soon.
You'd better make sure yourfamily's okay.
What's it like for you just toeven take that message in, like
(25:07):
not necessarily believing it,but just to hear it?
What's it like for you, likewhat are you feeling as you hear
it?
Eric Bahn (25:13):
What I like about naming things like this is, as
soon as you say it, you eitherfeel like man, that's like such
truth, and you know, and you canactually start to identify when
that's like a sabotaging voicesaying like, oh, like your
medulla is just activating andit's kind of overreacting.
That's part one of it, but Ithink the part that I because
(25:35):
I've never named it like thisbefore, brian that I'm coming at
is like that sounds soridiculous.
Right, because, like you know,even though I have had like a
frail history, I actually ameating pretty well and
exercising and I have a lot ofmobility.
I wake up with no pain when I'mwith my kids.
I can like move like arelatively young person still,
(25:57):
yeah.
So like the logic in me, justthe thing about like look where
you're at right now and thenlike with that person that the
demonic shoulder saying yeah,and it just sounds kind of
ridiculous, I almost want tolaugh at it a little bit yeah,
cool.
Brian Wang (26:14):
I mean, you seem to just have shifted just slightly
just now.
Like I'm wondering presently,how strong is the urge to go
check your messages, your email?
Eric Bahn (26:25):
Oh, I mean, it's not there at all.
I mean like, well, because,like, I like talking to you, man
, like, and this part of thesocial contract of this, this,
this podcast is to talk aboutthis, but you know what?
There is a shift Like it feelsa little bit looser now over
there.
Brian Wang (26:42):
Just after saying that, yeah, I guess what I am
curious about is, just now youseem to be able to like wake up
a little bit from the messagethat you know you said this
demonic presence is sort ofsending you, and yet there's
also lots of moments whereyou're sort of fused with it.
(27:04):
Right, it's like, oh, I gottago check my phone, I need to
provide.
So the question that is comingup for me is like what?
What causes you to forget?
Like right now you're in thismoment, or it's like, oh, it
doesn't have so much of a grip,but there's other times where it
does happen.
So what causes you to forget?
Eric Bahn (27:24):
Well, you know, I'm in a job where it's quite
reactive and that, like, I justfollow my schedule.
So I have 12 meetings afterthis.
All back to back, no time topee even I'll find some time.
But like it's, it's a.
You know, when you get intothat mode of like and the next,
and the next, and the next andthe next, then it's sort of easy
(27:45):
to fall back into a lessneocortex part of your brain.
I just like, okay, I'm blocked.
This, I'm blocked this Colton.
Like, chill this fire, chillthis fire.
You got autopilot.
Yeah, there's an autopilot whereI think the lazy part of me
allows a sabotaging voice likethis to speak to me a little bit
more clearly.
You know, this kind ofconversation is amazing because,
(28:07):
dude, this is my first meetingof the day, right?
And so you know, I haven'treally jumped into anything yet.
I made a cup of coffee and Ijust started talking to you.
So I think there's there'sreasons why probably meditation
or Buddhism, like a lot of thosethings happen like early in the
morning, when, before you starteverything.
Right, because the noise justnaturally is a little bit
(28:29):
quieter in the morning for me,right, yeah?
Brian Wang (28:32):
Right, yeah, even just the way days are structured
, the rest of the world is stillwaking up.
Everyone's kind of likestarting their engines a little
bit, but the flurry of activityhasn't started quite so much,
and so there's an opportunitythere.
Yeah, and so you're describingthis experience of being able to
have this sort of slower, morepresent quality to experience in
(28:56):
the beginning of the day.
It sounds like it's prettytough though the end of the day,
right, because you're sort ofcoming off of all of those
meetings and emails, etc.
Right, yeah.
Eric Bahn (29:07):
Yeah, certainly.
I mean I'm loading up my tasklist by the end of the day for
things I want to accomplish inthe morning or later this week.
Normally I have been like I dohave an inspiring job too, so a
lot of ideas will happenthroughout the day and I'll just
start throwing it into avariety of different kind of
resources for myself, for myteam.
I love it.
(29:30):
This part of the work of justfeeling inspired is great, and
that makes the quality of thiswork so addictive to the large
degree too, because I get thoseclose feedback loops so just
like wow, I just thought it's agreat idea, or this teammate
inspired me on something, or,founder, but shutting it off is
hard and I can't cross thethreshold between my garage and
(29:51):
living room to just immediatelybe back into like, okay, who
wants to play?
A kind of thing.
There's a decompression.
In fact, this is something thatI struggled with my last coach.
He suggested go take a walk ordo something that signals to you
that you are ending the day.
I was like that's a great idea,and then I ended up not ever
(30:15):
doing anything like that.
Brian Wang (30:16):
Sure, and stuff like that is wonderful.
I wholly subscribe to that sortof thing.
Ritual transition, yeah, yeah,incredibly important.
The thing I notice on top ofthat is there's even as we're
describing the job, the work,it's like there's a lot of
excitement, there's a lot ofpositive elements to it, there's
(30:38):
enjoyment there and like youreyes kind of lit up, like your
energy was different compared tothe More of that kind of like
Burdened, anxious, like you'dbetter do this thing, someone's
gonna be blocked.
You'd better do this thing,you're gonna die.
And so I guess what I'm reallynoticing is that for you, eric,
(31:03):
there is this Experience that'savailable to you, where you get
to enjoy your work, you get toenjoy your time with your family
, and there's a lightness to it.
And then there's also thisother Aspect of your experience.
I won't say it's black or white, it both can be present, but
there's some aspect of it's like, oh, I need to unblock this
(31:24):
person, I need to, I need toearn for my family.
I'd better make sure that I'mthe guy who's responding Right.
And so it sounds like if I haveit right, at the end of the day
it's it's more the latter modethat you're in, right compared
to the hey, I'm really justenjoying what's happening here.
(31:44):
Is that a fair statement?
Eric Bahn (31:47):
Almost I'd say that at the end of the day it's just,
I think my off ramp from workis Is I struggled with how long
it takes to off ramp, right,like you don't.
I can't like flip a switch andbe like I'm here and I really
want to because, like, if it'slike five o'clock, let's say,
then I have three and a halfhours to hang out with my kids,
(32:09):
right, like they're gonna be inbed by 8, 30.
Yep, right, and some of it'slike showering and all that's
like, so it's, it's a Eating,all that.
So it's not that much timeduring the weekday, at least the
weekends is different, right,and, and I feel, I think a ton
of guilt.
I was just like man, it takesme like an hour or two hours to
like really settle my mind a bit, but then, like it's almost
(32:33):
bedtime and then like what thehell did I just do with these
kids?
And you know, they just saw meon my phone a bit, and so Is
grappling with that also likethere's some party you.
Brian Wang (32:44):
That's Like criticizing you for not like
showing up better to your kids.
Eric Bahn (32:50):
Yeah, I mean that's doesn't know my skills for sure.
Brian Wang (32:53):
Right, yeah.
So just like we were payingattention to the anxiety, let's
pay attention to the guilt.
How does that show up for youin the body?
Eric Bahn (33:00):
Oh, it doesn't show up actually in the shoulder part
.
That's an interesting one, asyou.
As I'm saying it, I guess I'mfeeling it more my stomach.
Yeah, I've never really triedto figure out where my body that
feels, but I guess like I'mfeeling it right here, like on
my stomach.
Yeah, it's just like a bunch ofnerves are kind of tingling
(33:22):
right now.
Brian Wang (33:23):
Yeah, do you notice any other qualities about it?
A size, shape, color.
Feels like a baseball, uh-huh,yeah, and if you were just to
trust that there's some wisdomin it.
What's it trying to communicateto you?
Eric Bahn (33:38):
What's my baseball?
My stomach sing to me.
It's hard for me.
I can't even like interpretwith something right now.
I think it's like in a languageI don't even understand yet.
Brian Wang (33:46):
Hmm.
Eric Bahn (33:47):
Which is a weird, weird feeling.
It's almost like talking tosomeone in French.
I'm like I don't know French,or something.
Brian Wang (33:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll have to you like is it a
familiar feeling to you Is?
Eric Bahn (33:58):
It a familiar feeling to me, yeah, and you know where
this kind of shows up a bit.
It's like at night, likeespecially once the kids go down
, like I tend to just like thisis something I'm trying to stop
like I really like snacking alot and I find like it's almost
like I'm snacking more and moreand more and more in the last
year or two.
Hmm, and an interesting thingis like I'm not that hungry
(34:19):
Usually when this is happening,because I've just eaten dinner.
I think I, she's, I think it'swhat's telling me is like feed
me, feed me, feed me, feed me,all right, and it's like an
insatiable Thing.
And and I think this is almostif I'm trying to like
extrapolate this a little bitlike the part part about being a
dad and like we're not eventalking about my relationship
(34:41):
with my wife, which is good, butI think she's got a version of
this too.
What I'm dealing with is I'mWork is great because the
feedback loops are really fast,right, so I'm blocking email and
Brian's like thank you so much,right.
It's like oh, feel so good,right.
Parenting is tough because youdon't know whether the inputs
are actually driving an outputthat's positive or negative
sometimes, or or Largely, if youfeel like you're doing the
(35:04):
right things, you don't knowwhen the feedback will actually
close.
Yeah, I'm like wow, I have likedeveloped a, a child that
understands gratitude orsomething like that, like really
understands it right, and sosometimes you just like keep
feeding that beast or you justwant, like you like I don't know
, maybe like the, the baseballinside of me is just like you
(35:25):
know, you want that kind of fastfeedback loop, like you have in
your work life, at home life,but it feels like you're
knocking the feedback loop, somaybe you're not feeding it
enough and just like keep eatingand eating and eating, eating.
You know it's a strange kind ofconnection, but it's one for me
, yeah.
Brian Wang (35:41):
Yeah, I love that and, and you know, if it's
changed, that's okay.
We can just be curious about it, trust that there's something
there, perhaps.
So so what?
I let me reflect that back fora second, eric.
So what I hear is that, like,yes, you're right with parenting
, the feedback loops are quitelong, quite ambiguous.
Eric Bahn (36:01):
Oh yeah.
Brian Wang (36:02):
With business it's at least.
At least it feels like you doone thing, the world responds
there's a satisfaction to likeclosing that loop, and so You're
connecting that to some sense.
Like this the baseball, so tospeak, is kind of craving Some
sense of satisfaction that ismaybe not feeling like it's
(36:22):
getting in the moment, in themoment, like with the day-to-day
of parenting, yeah, and so it'slooking for some sort of
substitute or some way to feelsatisfied.
Is that, is that tracking foryou, or I think you're right.
Eric Bahn (36:34):
It's just like it never feels satisfied, right, it
never does.
And and yeah, it never does.
Brian Wang (36:43):
Maybe this is a silly question, but like, what
does satisfaction mean in thiscase?
Eric Bahn (36:48):
In this case it's like I'm full, you don't need to
give me more food, all right, Ithink it's just a simple as
that and yet, in your experience, it's never gonna be full.
Brian Wang (37:01):
It hasn't been.
Has it ever felt so?
Eric Bahn (37:04):
Yes.
So I'd say that again, thewords easiest to serve
environmentally, find yourself.
Being present is like a cooltrip, like last.
Last summer we did our firstbig international trip to Japan
and Korea.
We saw a lot of family andthings like that and when you're
in that kind of environmentit's so immersive and so foreign
and you're seeing if you're akids are at the kids.
I so so much like I Actuallynoticed like I was like almost
(37:28):
too excited to eat, right aslike we had some good meals but,
like you know, we weren'tsnacking at night or anything.
It was just like we're too busyand exhausted, yeah, you know.
So that was a very full moment,you know.
And then also just like eventhe threat that comes up to me
is also just like knowing thatmy kids were meeting their
cousins they had 30 cousins thatthey met for the first time in
(37:49):
Korea and like I have verydistinct memories of them all
Getting to know each other andhaving such a great time.
That was a very full moment Islike wow, like I can't put us
even like a grain of rice in mybody right now, like I'm so
stuffed.
Brian Wang (38:03):
Yeah, you didn't need to fill it with food.
There was.
It sounded like you were reallyfeeling nourished by the
experience you were having withyour kids, and and and and being
with the experience of yourkids, meeting cousins, being out
, having these adventures,that's right.
How much are you in touch withthat feeling right now, just as
you're bringing that up?
Eric Bahn (38:24):
I think very much so.
In fact, it's an odd feeling ofpresence to just focus on my
stomach, baseball, and just likeunderstanding, like oh, I think
I figured out a little bit ofthat language today of like, why
do you feel so hungry all thetime?
So it's a weird one to sit withbecause it's just an odd
(38:47):
feeling.
Brian Wang (38:48):
Yeah, I have a feeling that this is gonna come
across very weird for listeners,but that's okay, this is about
you and so, yeah, I just wannareflect that it sounds like this
the hungry baseball we can justuse that language is.
It does have an experience offeeling satisfied and, from what
(39:09):
I'm hearing, is really stronglylinked to these experiences
that you have with your family,with your kids, where you're
taking them on adventures,they're along for the ride,
they're joining in, you'rewatching them connect, you're
watching them enjoy, and to thepoint where it's like, oh, no
(39:30):
need for the food and snackingand all that.
It's like the cheap substituteis no longer necessary.
In some sense, that's evenpresent for you right here as
you're bringing that up.
What are you taking from that?
Eric Bahn (39:46):
You know, one of the things I kinda wanna do,
inspired from this conversation,brian, is now that we have AI,
I really like playing with Dollyis.
I wanna actually pump this as aprompt and say, like what does
a hungry baseball look like?
Maybe there's like a picture Ican put next to my desk or
something for a little while.
So just think about this alittle bit more, because I gotta
(40:07):
sit with it a lot more.
And actually I think the thingthat I wanna do next, frankly,
brian, after this call, is justlike if that is really the place
where I'm going with this.
In the moments that I findmyself being a non-present
parent, focusing on work,hanging out with the kids, just
remind myself, like what does mystomach baseball actually feel
(40:28):
right now?
And sensing, is there morehunger?
And then, if I can find and Iknow actually how to get myself
out of it like whenever my kidsare playing like a soccer game
or a basketball game they do alot of this stuff it's very easy
for me to be present becauseI'm like there's no way I'm
gonna miss like a basket or agoal here, right?
So I'm all in it, right?
What is my stomach feeling, mybaseball is saying at that point
(40:51):
right.
So I think part of it is justunderstanding the moods for me,
and then after that I think Ijust I'll have to sit with them
some more.
But like, well, now that Iunderstand the language, I think
I'm gonna be able to get intoit.
And get into the language.
Is it guiding me towards like,not come that like or don't like
?
And it's a lot of work there.
Brian Wang (41:12):
Yeah, I think so much of personal development,
cultivating the life that youwant, whatever phrasing you
wanna use kind of a foundationto it is being able to listen to
our own internal experience,right.
What are some of the feelings orimpulses in us saying, and how
(41:34):
well are we actually payingattention to those things?
And part of that also is I meanone even just noticing that
they're there, right, likeearlier in the call, you had a
couple of moments where like, ohyeah, I mean now I have
language for this Like I haven'teven noticed this before as
much as I have here, right.
So part of it's about noticingand then part of it's also being
(41:57):
in a sort of curious dialoguewith it, right, cause there's
gonna be times where it'll sendyou many messages that maybe are
not quite aligned with whatyou're truly valuing, or there
may be times where it's wantingsomething but steering you
towards a strategy that is notquite so productive, right.
So a lot of this is around howcan you get more curious about
(42:22):
yourself, creating languagearound that and then ultimately
creating a little bit moreharmony between yourself and
kind of the internal experience.
Eric Bahn (42:33):
Yeah, I think you said it very well, brian.
You know, the last thing thatsort of comes up for me is that,
as I'm sort of like focusing onthat whole area of my body in
this conversation aboutPresident's stomach, the
baseball, whatever, I think thething that kind of strikes me is
that that voice feels quitefriendly.
It's just like I'm here to helpyou.
I'm not here to sabotage you iskind of a thing, and that one I
(42:57):
want to sit with a bit, becauseI've gone through a whole
journey with this, like therapyand things like that, and one of
the things that I keepappreciating more and more and
this is something I hope thatinspires some of the people that
watch this today is that thebody feel, the body listening
like man.
I've ignored that for so muchof my life and the more that I
(43:17):
start to focus on those areas,the more like I'm reaping so
much benefit out of it.
So it's like discovering awhole new part of me.
Even this very briefconversation and yeah, I mean,
I'm sure people have their funnyleft foot or whatever they're
telling them different things,and this one was a it gave me a
(43:38):
lot to actually sit with.
I really appreciate this somuch.
Brian Wang (43:41):
Yeah, fantastic, awesome, eric.
So we're going to start to wrapup, and I think the main thing
I would really encourage you todo and this is just really
underscoring what you've alreadymentioned is returning to that
topic of presence.
How do I be more present withmy family?
What's getting in the way of it?
I think it starts with can youget more present with what's
(44:02):
happening internally?
Can you notice when the sort ofangry shoulder is starting to
come up?
Can you notice when thebaseball in the stomach is
showing up?
And even slowing down for abrief moment to pay attention to
what it's saying, what it'swanting you to know, and then
(44:24):
proceeding from there willreally make it more likely that
you're not just kind of going inthat autopilot mode and rather,
oh okay, can I really tune inand then from there decide what
I'm going to do.
Eric Bahn (44:40):
No, I really like that.
I think you know I'm not.
I don't want to go like goingback to like this notion of like
ending your day with a ritualkind of thing.
I think the problem with me,like taking a walk was like, oh,
it's like 20 minutes.
I only got, like you know,three and a half hours of my
family, like sure.
But this one actually I thinkis really actionable, Is like I
almost feel like a good way forme to end my day now would be
(45:02):
like just a quick body check.
You know, like how's theshoulder, how's the stomach?
Okay, now that you know that,go inside.
And even that is like a smallthing, that maybe it takes like
a minute, but it just is one ofthose things that might just be.
The one more reminder is likedays over, all right, so let's
try to do a little bit bettertoday.
Brian Wang (45:24):
Right, right, yeah, awesome, all right, Eric.
I look forward to hearing howthis goes for you then.
Eric Bahn (45:32):
Thanks, brian, appreciate you so much, buddy.
Brian Wang (45:34):
We went on a bit of a journey here with Eric.
He started off with a fear thatmany of us can share Am I
addicted to my phone?
And that opened up anexploration into feelings of
anxiety and guilt when it comesto balancing work and family
life.
For Eric, he was already prettyfamiliar with that feeling of
anxiety.
It showed up in his leftshoulder and that tightness and
it had a voice.
The voice essentially wassaying you're not gonna last
(45:55):
much longer.
You'd better hurry to providefor your family.
But when Eric was able to slowdown, give some space to that
voice, he was actually able todeconstruct that belief and that
story a bit, and he noticedthat his urge to work relaxed in
that moment.
Now, when it came to the guilt,we had to spend a little bit
more time there.
Eric came up with this funnymetaphor the idea of the hungry
(46:16):
baseball.
Now it sounds silly, but what'sreally useful about metaphors,
especially in coaching, is thatit gives us language, conscious
language, to name unconsciousfeelings and then, as a result,
we can actually spend some timeexpressing and processing those
feelings that are just having somuch hold over us.
And so, by making that guiltmore conscious, eric actually
(46:37):
remembered something reallyimportant.
He actually doesn't care a lotabout work when he's in those
moments of full engagement withhis family.
He has these really joyfulmoments and memories that he can
draw back on when he is campingoff the grid or when he's in an
immersive travel experience orwhen he's playing sports with
his kids.
So he just had this moment ofremembering.
Yeah, that's all available tome, and in that sense, the guilt
(47:00):
wasn't really a problem.
It actually pointed to what hedeeply, deeply cared about.
Now don't get me wrong switchingfrom work mode to family mode
can be a challenging transition.
Fortunately, eric now has sometools that can make that
transition a little bit easier.
He can check in with his body,notice what feelings are arising
and then use those as pointersto what he really really cares
(47:21):
about, and from there he canmake a choice as to how he shows
up in the moment.
Thank you for listening.
To Slow Down, to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed this episode,please rate it in your favorite
podcasting app, and if you're astartup founder who wants to
reach the next level throughcoaching or you'd like to come
onto the show, please contact meat dashingleadershipcom.
Okay, be honest.
How many times have you checkedyour phone in the last hour, or
even in the last 10 minutes?
So many of us are addicted toour devices.
We check them constantly, evenwhen we're around the people
that we love the most in thisworld.
Yet when we reach the end ofour lives, none of us are going
to say, gee, I wish I had spentless time with my kids and more
time answering email on my phone.
(00:21):
So how do we put down the phoneand become more present?
That is what we tackle in thiscoaching session with the
co-founder of Hustle Fund, ericBond.
We explore topics like whatdoes it mean to be a good parent
, and how do we escapeunsatisfying feedback loops?
And even, how do we listen toour body and the signals that it
sends us and use that as a wayto point to what we really
(00:42):
desire in our lives?
Okay, I hope you enjoy.
Hey, eric, great to see youtoday.
Good to see you, my old friend.
Yeah, I just to speak a littlebit to the audience.
I think Eric is someone whoprobably needs no introduction.
He's the co-founder of HustleFund, who, if you haven't seen
him, go follow him.
He's amazing.
On Twitter, jokes abound.
(01:02):
Such a great guy, amazinginvestor to founders.
Eric Bahn (01:07):
As a former founder himself and, I would argue, a
current founder, yeah, brian,really appreciate this
opportunity, as I've beenwatching your career as well and
hearing so many founders talkabout what you've done in their
lives, actually as their coach.
You know, for today's session,I want to talk a little bit
about presence and explore whatthat means for me.
(01:28):
So in our last conversation aswe're preparing for this
interview, I was talking abouthow I have a lot of struggle
about showing up and being fullypresent, especially with my own
family, and I think that's alot of it was born from this
conditioning that I've had asfor having this long career as a
founder, trying to be reallyresponsive, kind of being in a
(01:49):
really reactive mode, respondingto every email within one hour.
And I got young kids.
I got an eight year old son, afive year old daughter, as well
as a terrific wife that I'vebeen with for 21 years at this
point, and I find myself in aposition where I struggle
between I need to share a goodexample for my family and being
present with them.
So if we're watching a movietogether or just playing
(02:11):
together, I just want to showthem that I'm there for that.
Yeah, at the same time, there'salways a phone that's close by
and this anxiety that I'mmissing a message, I'm missing a
call or a text from an LP orfounder, and I find myself that
every five minutes throughout mywaking days just checking and
checking and checking, and Ican't seem to reconcile how to
(02:35):
find and explore that presencewith this anxiety of maybe
strong from a little bit ofpeople pleasing as well as my
personality, of just being ableto be there for also the other
people in my work and my lifetoo, outside of my family too.
So it's been a long one.
It's been a couple of yearssince I've been grappling with
this, but I'm not really makingmuch headway on it.
Brian Wang (02:55):
Yeah, oof, all right .
Just listening to that it'ssomething that that dynamic is
familiar for me personally.
It's something I see in so manyother founders and just
generally high achievers, andmaybe the first thing I notice
in listening to that is the wordreconcile.
So from that I'm hearingthere's a sense for you that
(03:20):
there's like I can be present.
And being present means notreally putting my attention into
work when I'm with family, andso there's like an experience
where I can just really be fullywith my kids, my wife and then
whatever's happening on my phone.
A completely different world.
I'll get back to that when it'stime to go do that, and right
(03:44):
now it's kind of feeling likeyou're split.
Is that a kind of like a fairdescription of what's happening
for you?
Eric Bahn (03:50):
I think so, and maybe underlying all this is a bit of
guilt.
So we actually do an exerciseevery year with our family
around Christmas where, as afamily, will come together, do a
retrospective on the year andthen try to name and write down
the values that we care aboutfor the coming year.
And it's a nice conversationand we write it down, we print
(04:11):
it on a piece of paper and putit in our dining room in a frame
.
And the very first year that wedid this exercise, the first
line was quality time andquantity time was a value that
we cared about.
So on the quantity time front,you know, I'm lucky enough to be
in a role of my wife to wherewe have some flexibility, where
I work from home, I can see myfamily and I do feel like I get
(04:34):
a lot of quantity.
It's the quality part where I'mjust like wow, like I was so
excited when we wrote down thisvalue and I'm not living it
consistently, and that has a lotof cascading effects of
emotions and, primarily, guilttoo.
Brian Wang (04:50):
I suspect correct me if I'm wrong the guilt is
because you're noticing a gapbetween kind of how you want to
approach that and how youcurrently are.
Is that right?
Eric Bahn (04:59):
Yeah, it's something that we've named, as a family,
as one of our top priorities.
Yeah, it's like reallyimportant.
It's very important to us, andjust not being able to show up
for it in the way that I want issomething that just creates a
lot of anxiety.
It's just like why can't I dothis and am I modeling a
behavior for my own kids withtheir families in the future too
(05:20):
?
So there's some of that.
I think mental gymnastics too.
That comes to the core of this.
Brian Wang (05:27):
Yeah, and just from that I want to name that I can
sense how much care there is onyour end.
I know you'd be a very heartfeltindividual and there's a lot of
love and there's a lot of careand you're really looking out
for not just am I living up tomy word, but also what impact is
this having on my kids?
What message is this sending tomy kids?
(05:48):
Because of course, they'rewatching me and us parents for
all of our cues or their cues, Ishould say right.
So the first thing I want tosay is clearly this matters to
you and your heart's in theright place, otherwise we
wouldn't be having thisconversation Now.
There's a few different placeswe could look into, but I guess
(06:14):
you mentioned that you've justbeen struggling with it for some
time I think it's a couple ofyears at least.
So I suspect that you havetried a few different things to
become more present, to havemore present quality time with
your family, and if that'saccurate, I'm curious just like
what have you noticed has gonewell, has failed all of that in
(06:40):
sort of that quest to spend morequality time or present time
with your family?
Eric Bahn (06:44):
Yeah, you know, as you're asking that question,
it's also bringing up one morepiece of context.
I think that's sort of like thedemon diagrapple with and I'll
try to answer that just secondfor that question or the actual
question.
So where I justify, I think,for myself why it makes sense
for me to be looking at my phoneall the time, is that I also
(07:04):
really take the role of being abreadwinner within my family
really seriously.
My wife actually does prettywell for herself as a founder,
so that's part that's a littlebit weird about this, but we're
both founders, we're kind ofincomes are very spiky at times
(07:25):
and we do have a pretty goodsavings from previous career
stuff, but it's not really in mymind.
So the way that I think Ijustify oh, I should be working
a lot is because I'm providingfor the family.
But I just think that if I wereto objectively look at it,
that's actually an inconsistentperspective or a wrong
(07:48):
perspective in some ways,because the reality is like our
process is pretty good and Ishould just trust it and the
money's coming in and we're notstarving or going to lose our
house next week, but a littlebit of, I think, some of that
immigrant trauma of justscarcity mindset is playing into
that.
So I want to raise that also asone piece of context.
(08:12):
And then I guess, in terms ofshowing up the things that have
worked, at least in the past, is, I think, isolating at least a
very small period of time tostart.
So dinner I have to eat, so tomy kids.
Usually we're using utensils onboth hands, so it's not really
pragmatic anyway to be usingyour phone or anything like that
(08:34):
.
But there are devices on thetable sometimes which I don't
like, so removing those, I think, has helped.
The other thing too that wekind of satiate the presence is
if we go to a different place.
We travel like a weekend tripto the beach or something.
Everyone loves it.
We love traveling so much andwe don't want to be playing with
our devices when we get toexplore something new.
(08:55):
But that said, I'm not going tospend money to just be present.
I want that, just like evenwhen I walk in from the garage
to my house, just feel like I'mhere.
Kids, let's go make a fork orsomething like that.
Right?
Brian Wang (09:11):
Right, yeah, so great.
I just pointed out there areenvironmental factors that can
help you in some ways to sort ofprevent you from grabbing your
phone in some sense.
Right, oh, if the device is outof sight then it's not easy for
me to go reach for it.
If we're out on vacation, we'rein a completely different
(09:32):
context, different mindset, butit's in that day to day, it's in
that like on a standard day orweek, you're noticing that pull
and thank you for sharing thatpart about identity.
Right, like, oh, I'm thebreadwinner and I know that.
Like, yeah, logically,rationally, that's not really
(09:54):
something I need to stress abouttoo much.
Right, you look at the numbers,you look at how your partner's
doing.
It's like great, like, on paperit seems like we're safe, and
yet there's like some feeling orpressure that you're maybe
putting on yourself around tolike be the breadwinner or, like
you said, justify the pull.
And so I'm curious if we canmaybe examine that a little bit
(10:18):
more closely.
Like, specifically, maybe walkme through a situation, maybe a
recent experience or commonexperience, where you're on one
hand, like okay, hey, kids, hey,family, it's time to be in dad
mode, right, family mode, andthen that loss of presence comes
(10:42):
up, right when that urge, likethat sort of action urge to go
reach for your phone, check yourmessages, comes up.
And if you can just walk usthrough that a little bit slowly
, like just hmm, like step bystep, like what is it feeling?
Like what's happening rightbefore that?
Whatever, whatever details kindof come alive for you as you're
(11:03):
stepping into, that would begreat.
Eric Bahn (11:05):
I've never done this exercise before, so I'm pretty
excited to explore this with you, Brian.
Okay, I'll take a reallymundane example which is
normally how I end my day.
I start relatively early.
I try to begin work aroundseven or eight.
I'm very lucky enough to havesome support where there's drop
off for the kids and we stillhave our nanny for more months
(11:26):
at least to do that kind ofstuff, so I can just jump right
into it.
I come here to the garage mostdays where I work and then I go
through all my meetings andeverything like that, and then
at the end of the day, which isaround five technically, I
always try to get to inbox zeroevery day.
And actually one of the strangeidentities I've developed is I
(11:48):
use this tool called superhuman,which is an email client, and I
am within, I think, the topfive or top six longest inbox
zero streak users in history ofsuperhuman.
It's something like 300 weeksor something.
Brian Wang (12:01):
Okay, so you're like really wanting to keep that
streak going.
I'm guessing, yeah.
Eric Bahn (12:05):
And I think like this , there's like this, like very
satisfying cleanliness of justending the day knowing that
there's nothing left in thereRight now.
Brian Wang (12:12):
can we, let's let's pause for a second.
Sorry to cut you off, butbriefly.
What's what makes it importantfor you to do inbox zero every
day?
Eric Bahn (12:23):
I think there's a satisfaction of one does a
complete completeness and justchecking out something.
That feels great.
But even even beyond that, it'sknowing that the constituents
whom I'm serving of which thereare many, I have investors, I
have founders, I have teammatesthat I know that I've actually
served them as well and havebeen able to unblock them on a
(12:45):
question or some sort of tasksthat they needed, which is
usually what the inboxrepresents for me.
So knowing that I've taken careof my people, I think feels
really good.
And then this is where itstarts to get kind of messy.
So you go in, it's like fiveo'clock, my family's here, we
got like to prepare for dinnerand like some evening activities
(13:05):
and things like that.
But the problem with email isthat it just keeps on coming and
we weren't a global fund, soSingapore and Asia, like Europe,
they're all waking up or doingtheir thing too Right.
And the anxiety of knowing thatthere is other messages coming
in, people that I need tounblock, I think, starts to
build and build and build.
And where I think I feel a lotof guilt is I am probably
(13:30):
actively prioritizing theirneeds over even my children's
needs or my wife's needs at thatmoment and that really messes
with my head Because, right, onetime again I can say that I'm
providing for the family, got togo back to garage, but I'm not
too.
When my kids are old andlooking back at their childhood,
I don't want them to think likedad just always was in the
garage, just like talking toother people instead of me,
(13:53):
right, and that's like theexcuse that, like I was
providing, might not land aswell.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly, youknow, my wife is amazing.
She's also a coach, like you,right, and you know there's I
don't know why this is coming up, but I actually have like
(14:13):
conversations with her everyonce in a while of just like you
know, if I go away, likesomehow I die, get hit by a bus
or something, you know, I have aplan for you guys on how my
insurance money, like everythingwill play out so that you'll be
financially secure, right, yeah, and I say this over and over
and over again, like a couple oftimes a year, and her response
is, like you know, what's moreimportant for us is that you are
(14:36):
here for a long time, becausethe money doesn't matter if
you're not here.
Right, and yeah, she said thisto me, I think, in the last six
months and at that moment it hitme much harder of like, wow, I
think I have a problem here.
I've just been really addictedto my device or work or
something.
Yeah yeah, that was reallypainful to feel.
Brian Wang (14:57):
Can you say more about that, like how it hit you?
I think it's part of being abreadwinner.
Eric Bahn (15:03):
There's a great satisfaction in knowing that you
know you can provide a life foryour family that is quite
comfortable, you know, cool home, environment, great
neighborhood, great vacationsand things like that.
And I think I've tied thatreally directly to like a
monetary amount, like afinancial independence amount,
Right, and it's not to say we'relike lacking in any of these
(15:27):
regards, but like it's I think Iput too much emphasis of just
like this much cash allows us tohave this much life, Right,
yeah.
And then where I kind of losemyself on the equation is just
like you know, where do I fit inthis stuff?
Like what does it mean to belike a good dad, a present dad,
a present husband, a presentfriend?
(15:48):
And for some reason it's reallyeasy to subtract yourself from
this calculus too.
Brian Wang (15:56):
Let me see if this fits.
It's like almost like I'm afather too, right, so I can
relate to some extent.
It's like if I can Bring in acertain amount of money, then
I've like, I've done my, I'vedone a great job as a father,
all right.
At least I've like done theprovider thing, yeah, and and
(16:17):
great like I've fulfilled thatand that's that's kind of one
element.
And then, and then you'rehearing from your family.
But actually what we want isyou, eric, it's not really about
the money.
So there's like this mismatchthere.
Eric Bahn (16:32):
Yeah, and the interesting thing about this is
I know that my wife is totallycorrect.
I mean, growing up, I Lived ina neighborhood which had a lot
of professionals and I have seenExtremely wealthy families with
very non-present dads.
Yeah so they had great homes,great toys, really really cool
vacations, but Really resentfulchildren At the same time of.
(16:59):
Just like you know, I had tolike figure it out myself Like
where were you dad?
Like I, like you missed my highschool graduation, even because
you're working on a salesmeeting, right and and Is that
like what?
Brian Wang (17:11):
you're saying just now.
Is that something you saw orthat's something you experienced
yourself?
What you're saying?
Eric Bahn (17:14):
not for me.
My dad worked a lot too.
He was a very, very busy doctor, so my time with him was on the
weekends, and so I felt somedegree of this.
But what I do think he did wellwas, even though we had less
quality time the Sorry, lessquantity time the quality time
was actually very high, andLater on in my life I should
(17:35):
learn that he was dealing with alot of shit, I mean like tons
of racism, because he wasrunning a medical practice.
There's always like lawsuits andthings like this, and I had no
idea because, you know, wheneverhe was home and ready, like he
was just he's like, you know,I'm here for you, right, but but
was more my friends, family'sexperience, which is just, I
(17:56):
seen the lack of the qualitytime and the lack of the
quantity Time combined and itjust created, I think, a lot of
trauma for those people.
So, until actually, I think ITotally see what.
What's wrong with this.
Yeah, emotionally, though, oror I guess, in some sort of part
of my soul, like it's reallyhard to relinquish, like this
notion that I gotta stop workingat some point during the day.
(18:18):
So, and that inbox zero part islike one part of just how I end
it.
But like again, like emailsbubble up again.
Brian Wang (18:25):
Let's go back to that, because what I hear is
like there's like you'renoticing that there's a part of
that, that job, the I need tounlock people.
Yeah, that feels.
You said it's it's hard torelinquish, right.
So I'm here like there's likethis man it's like really hard
to let go of, yeah, and so I'mwondering, going back to like
(18:46):
the specific, so it's 5 pm, youhit inbox zero, great.
And then you also know thatthere are there are emails and
messages coming in, and so let'ssay you make the conscious
decision I'm gonna make this up,but you make this the conscious
decision to say you know what,those messages can wait until
tomorrow, or at least like untilafter the kids are in bed.
(19:10):
And in that world, what do younotice?
You start to feel having madethat decision.
Eric Bahn (19:19):
I've been forced into those kind of decisions before,
in the sense that you know, ifI'm like on a, we usually take
like a nice trip right afterschool ends, right for like two
weeks or something, and A lot oftimes it's in places where the
internet's not that great, likemaybe we might go camping, right
, and actually it's one of myfavorite activities.
For this reason, it's just likeI am camping.
(19:40):
There was literally no internet, and Very quickly within two
days, I find that I'vereconditioned myself into just
like starting to not worry aboutthis kind of thing, and it
feels great.
All the stuff starts to feelway more present.
Colors feel brighter, foodtastes better, right, that's not
the reality of day-to-day life,though, right, I mean,
(20:02):
internet's awesome at my house.
So, yeah, you know, the idea ofwaiting is is hard for me
because you know, brian, when Iknow your background quite well
like you're Founders, just likeI was for a long time and
there's also kind of a littlebit of a pride, maybe a little
bit of gamification, a bunch ofjust about being a known as a,
(20:25):
as a founder who's reallyresponsive.
Right, if someone has a question, you unblock them quick, or if,
like a client or someone thatyou sold something to has an
issue like you, unblock thatreally fast, yeah, and it's
actually a great way of buildingan amazing reputation in
business.
I think it's just being likethis reliable, super fast
responding person that you know24-7 is just gonna get get you
(20:46):
what you need, all right, and Ithink as a young man you can
sort of get away with that.
Or young woman, right.
I'm just like, yeah, that'slike a neat way of building
brand, but, but that's not aneat way, I think, of living
life is what you start torealize Way too late, like it's
gonna be probably ten years ofsaying like to myself, like this
is unsustainable, andespecially once the kids pop out
(21:07):
, yeah, or your marriage isstarting to suffer.
Brian Wang (21:10):
Yeah, so I Totally get that.
You understand that on a, on anintellectual basis and I'm with
you, I I also, like I'm on thesame page it can be a
competitive advantage to bereally, really responsive.
Let's say that you go back tothat situation I posed, though.
So it's like, okay, now I'm notgonna respond, even just for
(21:32):
like 12 hours to these messages.
Yeah, right, so I'm not the theincredibly fast, responsive
person that you just described.
What happens, then, for you?
What's the experience like?
Eric Bahn (21:46):
Probably a lot of anxiety.
I mean just like Knowing thatthere could be just like issues
waiting.
I think the first place thatI'm thinking what is is how I do
feel actually in those kinds ofmoments.
Yeah, I think it's just anxietyof just like there's issues
waiting that I'm not unblockingat this point okay.
Brian Wang (22:08):
So I want to invite us to slow down and get a little
more curious about that.
So anxiety can often be verymental, but something that we do
Far less frequently as aculture is it's just to
understand what is it like tofor us to experience that in our
bodies.
So when you bring up theanxiety, like what do you
(22:29):
actually most notice thatphysically in the body?
Eric Bahn (22:32):
It's on my left side, right above my shoulder blade,
so, and in fact, that musclespretty tense right now, yeah, so
whenever I'm feeling any stress, anxiety in my life, it's this
part right here, okay, right,yeah.
And and the beautiful thingabout aging and doing work with
like a coach like yourself andI've had coaches in the past is
(22:54):
like Now, whenever I'm startingto feel that, even if I can't
name it, it's like a signal tome of like you there's you need
to change something, becauselike something is really making
you feel that right now In yourlife.
Brian Wang (23:05):
so I'm feeling it right here, yeah so if you just
to Center your attention on tothat area of your shoulder right
now, mm-hmm, and simply allowit to be there, no need for it
to go away.
You're just getting curiousabout it, right?
If you were giving it voice, itwere saying something to you.
(23:28):
What would it be saying?
Eric Bahn (23:29):
man, it's kind of a dark place.
So I think what it's sayingright now is I'm a bit of a
frail person, like I've gottensome pretty serious illnesses
over my life, some direction haskilled me, so a part of me
actually of what this is sayingis, like You're not gonna live
that much longer, so if that'sthe case, then you need to rush
(23:50):
to like provide for your familyin the event that you pass away.
That's actually literally whatthis part of the shoulder is
saying.
Yeah, it's a very and it's avery demonic voice right now.
Brian Wang (24:03):
Yeah yeah, that sounds really harsh.
At the same time, I also hearthat it's really it's wanting
your family to be okay as well.
Eric Bahn (24:13):
I think there's also a little like a lot of ego here
too.
It's like great, you know,you're just a, you know, make
something cool too.
You know like maybe it's nicethat like also people know you
did something good for them too.
All right, like I.
No doubt that's also anarcissistic like core there too
.
Well, yeah, there is definitelylike a lot of genuine like you
(24:34):
know your kids, your wife, Likethey're gonna be set up right if
you just get them set up.
Yeah, I'm hard.
Brian Wang (24:42):
Yeah, okay.
So there's like this, thisanxious part of you that seems
to drive so much of even justthose simple urges to pick up
the phone, check your email.
If you take a moment to get toknow it, it's kind of sending
this message of, like Eric,you're going to die soon.
You'd better make sure yourfamily's okay.
What's it like for you just toeven take that message in, like
(25:07):
not necessarily believing it,but just to hear it?
What's it like for you, likewhat are you feeling as you hear
it?
Eric Bahn (25:13):
What I like about naming things like this is, as
soon as you say it, you eitherfeel like man, that's like such
truth, and you know, and you canactually start to identify when
that's like a sabotaging voicesaying like, oh, like your
medulla is just activating andit's kind of overreacting.
That's part one of it, but Ithink the part that I because
(25:35):
I've never named it like thisbefore, brian that I'm coming at
is like that sounds soridiculous.
Right, because, like you know,even though I have had like a
frail history, I actually ameating pretty well and
exercising and I have a lot ofmobility.
I wake up with no pain when I'mwith my kids.
I can like move like arelatively young person still,
(25:57):
yeah.
So like the logic in me, justthe thing about like look where
you're at right now and thenlike with that person that the
demonic shoulder saying yeah,and it just sounds kind of
ridiculous, I almost want tolaugh at it a little bit yeah,
cool.
Brian Wang (26:14):
I mean, you seem to just have shifted just slightly
just now.
Like I'm wondering presently,how strong is the urge to go
check your messages, your email?
Eric Bahn (26:25):
Oh, I mean, it's not there at all.
I mean like, well, because,like, I like talking to you, man
, like, and this part of thesocial contract of this, this,
this podcast is to talk aboutthis, but you know what?
There is a shift Like it feelsa little bit looser now over
there.
Brian Wang (26:42):
Just after saying that, yeah, I guess what I am
curious about is, just now youseem to be able to like wake up
a little bit from the messagethat you know you said this
demonic presence is sort ofsending you, and yet there's
also lots of moments whereyou're sort of fused with it.
(27:04):
Right, it's like, oh, I gottago check my phone, I need to
provide.
So the question that is comingup for me is like what?
What causes you to forget?
Like right now you're in thismoment, or it's like, oh, it
doesn't have so much of a grip,but there's other times where it
does happen.
So what causes you to forget?
Eric Bahn (27:24):
Well, you know, I'm in a job where it's quite
reactive and that, like, I justfollow my schedule.
So I have 12 meetings afterthis.
All back to back, no time topee even I'll find some time.
But like it's, it's a.
You know, when you get intothat mode of like and the next,
and the next, and the next andthe next, then it's sort of easy
(27:45):
to fall back into a lessneocortex part of your brain.
I just like, okay, I'm blocked.
This, I'm blocked this Colton.
Like, chill this fire, chillthis fire.
You got autopilot.
Yeah, there's an autopilot whereI think the lazy part of me
allows a sabotaging voice likethis to speak to me a little bit
more clearly.
You know, this kind ofconversation is amazing because,
(28:07):
dude, this is my first meetingof the day, right?
And so you know, I haven'treally jumped into anything yet.
I made a cup of coffee and Ijust started talking to you.
So I think there's there'sreasons why probably meditation
or Buddhism, like a lot of thosethings happen like early in the
morning, when, before you starteverything.
Right, because the noise justnaturally is a little bit
(28:29):
quieter in the morning for me,right, yeah?
Brian Wang (28:32):
Right, yeah, even just the way days are structured
, the rest of the world is stillwaking up.
Everyone's kind of likestarting their engines a little
bit, but the flurry of activityhasn't started quite so much,
and so there's an opportunitythere.
Yeah, and so you're describingthis experience of being able to
have this sort of slower, morepresent quality to experience in
(28:56):
the beginning of the day.
It sounds like it's prettytough though the end of the day,
right, because you're sort ofcoming off of all of those
meetings and emails, etc.
Right, yeah.
Eric Bahn (29:07):
Yeah, certainly.
I mean I'm loading up my tasklist by the end of the day for
things I want to accomplish inthe morning or later this week.
Normally I have been like I dohave an inspiring job too, so a
lot of ideas will happenthroughout the day and I'll just
start throwing it into avariety of different kind of
resources for myself, for myteam.
I love it.
(29:30):
This part of the work of justfeeling inspired is great, and
that makes the quality of thiswork so addictive to the large
degree too, because I get thoseclose feedback loops so just
like wow, I just thought it's agreat idea, or this teammate
inspired me on something, or,founder, but shutting it off is
hard and I can't cross thethreshold between my garage and
(29:51):
living room to just immediatelybe back into like, okay, who
wants to play?
A kind of thing.
There's a decompression.
In fact, this is something thatI struggled with my last coach.
He suggested go take a walk ordo something that signals to you
that you are ending the day.
I was like that's a great idea,and then I ended up not ever
(30:15):
doing anything like that.
Brian Wang (30:16):
Sure, and stuff like that is wonderful.
I wholly subscribe to that sortof thing.
Ritual transition, yeah, yeah,incredibly important.
The thing I notice on top ofthat is there's even as we're
describing the job, the work,it's like there's a lot of
excitement, there's a lot ofpositive elements to it, there's
(30:38):
enjoyment there and like youreyes kind of lit up, like your
energy was different compared tothe More of that kind of like
Burdened, anxious, like you'dbetter do this thing, someone's
gonna be blocked.
You'd better do this thing,you're gonna die.
And so I guess what I'm reallynoticing is that for you, eric,
(31:03):
there is this Experience that'savailable to you, where you get
to enjoy your work, you get toenjoy your time with your family
, and there's a lightness to it.
And then there's also thisother Aspect of your experience.
I won't say it's black or white, it both can be present, but
there's some aspect of it's like, oh, I need to unblock this
(31:24):
person, I need to, I need toearn for my family.
I'd better make sure that I'mthe guy who's responding Right.
And so it sounds like if I haveit right, at the end of the day
it's it's more the latter modethat you're in, right compared
to the hey, I'm really justenjoying what's happening here.
(31:44):
Is that a fair statement?
Eric Bahn (31:47):
Almost I'd say that at the end of the day it's just,
I think my off ramp from workis Is I struggled with how long
it takes to off ramp, right,like you don't.
I can't like flip a switch andbe like I'm here and I really
want to because, like, if it'slike five o'clock, let's say,
then I have three and a halfhours to hang out with my kids,
(32:09):
right, like they're gonna be inbed by 8, 30.
Yep, right, and some of it'slike showering and all that's
like, so it's, it's a Eating,all that.
So it's not that much timeduring the weekday, at least the
weekends is different, right,and, and I feel, I think a ton
of guilt.
I was just like man, it takesme like an hour or two hours to
like really settle my mind a bit, but then, like it's almost
(32:33):
bedtime and then like what thehell did I just do with these
kids?
And you know, they just saw meon my phone a bit, and so Is
grappling with that also likethere's some party you.
Brian Wang (32:44):
That's Like criticizing you for not like
showing up better to your kids.
Eric Bahn (32:50):
Yeah, I mean that's doesn't know my skills for sure.
Brian Wang (32:53):
Right, yeah.
So just like we were payingattention to the anxiety, let's
pay attention to the guilt.
How does that show up for youin the body?
Eric Bahn (33:00):
Oh, it doesn't show up actually in the shoulder part
.
That's an interesting one, asyou.
As I'm saying it, I guess I'mfeeling it more my stomach.
Yeah, I've never really triedto figure out where my body that
feels, but I guess like I'mfeeling it right here, like on
my stomach.
Yeah, it's just like a bunch ofnerves are kind of tingling
(33:22):
right now.
Brian Wang (33:23):
Yeah, do you notice any other qualities about it?
A size, shape, color.
Feels like a baseball, uh-huh,yeah, and if you were just to
trust that there's some wisdomin it.
What's it trying to communicateto you?
Eric Bahn (33:38):
What's my baseball?
My stomach sing to me.
It's hard for me.
I can't even like interpretwith something right now.
I think it's like in a languageI don't even understand yet.
Brian Wang (33:46):
Hmm.
Eric Bahn (33:47):
Which is a weird, weird feeling.
It's almost like talking tosomeone in French.
I'm like I don't know French,or something.
Brian Wang (33:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll have to you like is it a
familiar feeling to you Is?
Eric Bahn (33:58):
It a familiar feeling to me, yeah, and you know where
this kind of shows up a bit.
It's like at night, likeespecially once the kids go down
, like I tend to just like thisis something I'm trying to stop
like I really like snacking alot and I find like it's almost
like I'm snacking more and moreand more and more in the last
year or two.
Hmm, and an interesting thingis like I'm not that hungry
(34:19):
Usually when this is happening,because I've just eaten dinner.
I think I, she's, I think it'swhat's telling me is like feed
me, feed me, feed me, feed me,all right, and it's like an
insatiable Thing.
And and I think this is almostif I'm trying to like
extrapolate this a little bitlike the part part about being a
dad and like we're not eventalking about my relationship
(34:41):
with my wife, which is good, butI think she's got a version of
this too.
What I'm dealing with is I'mWork is great because the
feedback loops are really fast,right, so I'm blocking email and
Brian's like thank you so much,right.
It's like oh, feel so good,right.
Parenting is tough because youdon't know whether the inputs
are actually driving an outputthat's positive or negative
sometimes, or or Largely, if youfeel like you're doing the
(35:04):
right things, you don't knowwhen the feedback will actually
close.
Yeah, I'm like wow, I have likedeveloped a, a child that
understands gratitude orsomething like that, like really
understands it right, and sosometimes you just like keep
feeding that beast or you justwant, like you like I don't know
, maybe like the, the baseballinside of me is just like you
(35:25):
know, you want that kind of fastfeedback loop, like you have in
your work life, at home life,but it feels like you're
knocking the feedback loop, somaybe you're not feeding it
enough and just like keep eatingand eating and eating, eating.
You know it's a strange kind ofconnection, but it's one for me
, yeah.
Brian Wang (35:41):
Yeah, I love that and, and you know, if it's
changed, that's okay.
We can just be curious about it, trust that there's something
there, perhaps.
So so what?
I let me reflect that back fora second, eric.
So what I hear is that, like,yes, you're right with parenting
, the feedback loops are quitelong, quite ambiguous.
Eric Bahn (36:01):
Oh yeah.
Brian Wang (36:02):
With business it's at least.
At least it feels like you doone thing, the world responds
there's a satisfaction to likeclosing that loop, and so You're
connecting that to some sense.
Like this the baseball, so tospeak, is kind of craving Some
sense of satisfaction that ismaybe not feeling like it's
(36:22):
getting in the moment, in themoment, like with the day-to-day
of parenting, yeah, and so it'slooking for some sort of
substitute or some way to feelsatisfied.
Is that, is that tracking foryou, or I think you're right.
Eric Bahn (36:34):
It's just like it never feels satisfied, right, it
never does.
And and yeah, it never does.
Brian Wang (36:43):
Maybe this is a silly question, but like, what
does satisfaction mean in thiscase?
Eric Bahn (36:48):
In this case it's like I'm full, you don't need to
give me more food, all right, Ithink it's just a simple as
that and yet, in your experience, it's never gonna be full.
Brian Wang (37:01):
It hasn't been.
Has it ever felt so?
Eric Bahn (37:04):
Yes.
So I'd say that again, thewords easiest to serve
environmentally, find yourself.
Being present is like a cooltrip, like last.
Last summer we did our firstbig international trip to Japan
and Korea.
We saw a lot of family andthings like that and when you're
in that kind of environmentit's so immersive and so foreign
and you're seeing if you're akids are at the kids.
I so so much like I Actuallynoticed like I was like almost
(37:28):
too excited to eat, right aslike we had some good meals but,
like you know, we weren'tsnacking at night or anything.
It was just like we're too busyand exhausted, yeah, you know.
So that was a very full moment,you know.
And then also just like eventhe threat that comes up to me
is also just like knowing thatmy kids were meeting their
cousins they had 30 cousins thatthey met for the first time in
(37:49):
Korea and like I have verydistinct memories of them all
Getting to know each other andhaving such a great time.
That was a very full moment Islike wow, like I can't put us
even like a grain of rice in mybody right now, like I'm so
stuffed.
Brian Wang (38:03):
Yeah, you didn't need to fill it with food.
There was.
It sounded like you were reallyfeeling nourished by the
experience you were having withyour kids, and and and and being
with the experience of yourkids, meeting cousins, being out
, having these adventures,that's right.
How much are you in touch withthat feeling right now, just as
you're bringing that up?
Eric Bahn (38:24):
I think very much so.
In fact, it's an odd feeling ofpresence to just focus on my
stomach, baseball, and just likeunderstanding, like oh, I think
I figured out a little bit ofthat language today of like, why
do you feel so hungry all thetime?
So it's a weird one to sit withbecause it's just an odd
(38:47):
feeling.
Brian Wang (38:48):
Yeah, I have a feeling that this is gonna come
across very weird for listeners,but that's okay, this is about
you and so, yeah, I just wannareflect that it sounds like this
the hungry baseball we can justuse that language is.
It does have an experience offeeling satisfied and, from what
(39:09):
I'm hearing, is really stronglylinked to these experiences
that you have with your family,with your kids, where you're
taking them on adventures,they're along for the ride,
they're joining in, you'rewatching them connect, you're
watching them enjoy, and to thepoint where it's like, oh, no
(39:30):
need for the food and snackingand all that.
It's like the cheap substituteis no longer necessary.
In some sense, that's evenpresent for you right here as
you're bringing that up.
What are you taking from that?
Eric Bahn (39:46):
You know, one of the things I kinda wanna do,
inspired from this conversation,brian, is now that we have AI,
I really like playing with Dollyis.
I wanna actually pump this as aprompt and say, like what does
a hungry baseball look like?
Maybe there's like a picture Ican put next to my desk or
something for a little while.
So just think about this alittle bit more, because I gotta
(40:07):
sit with it a lot more.
And actually I think the thingthat I wanna do next, frankly,
brian, after this call, is justlike if that is really the place
where I'm going with this.
In the moments that I findmyself being a non-present
parent, focusing on work,hanging out with the kids, just
remind myself, like what does mystomach baseball actually feel
(40:28):
right now?
And sensing, is there morehunger?
And then, if I can find and Iknow actually how to get myself
out of it like whenever my kidsare playing like a soccer game
or a basketball game they do alot of this stuff it's very easy
for me to be present becauseI'm like there's no way I'm
gonna miss like a basket or agoal here, right?
So I'm all in it, right?
What is my stomach feeling, mybaseball is saying at that point
(40:51):
right.
So I think part of it is justunderstanding the moods for me,
and then after that I think Ijust I'll have to sit with them
some more.
But like, well, now that Iunderstand the language, I think
I'm gonna be able to get intoit.
And get into the language.
Is it guiding me towards like,not come that like or don't like
?
And it's a lot of work there.
Brian Wang (41:12):
Yeah, I think so much of personal development,
cultivating the life that youwant, whatever phrasing you
wanna use kind of a foundationto it is being able to listen to
our own internal experience,right.
What are some of the feelings orimpulses in us saying, and how
(41:34):
well are we actually payingattention to those things?
And part of that also is I meanone even just noticing that
they're there, right, likeearlier in the call, you had a
couple of moments where like, ohyeah, I mean now I have
language for this Like I haven'teven noticed this before as
much as I have here, right.
So part of it's about noticingand then part of it's also being
(41:57):
in a sort of curious dialoguewith it, right, cause there's
gonna be times where it'll sendyou many messages that maybe are
not quite aligned with whatyou're truly valuing, or there
may be times where it's wantingsomething but steering you
towards a strategy that is notquite so productive, right.
So a lot of this is around howcan you get more curious about
(42:22):
yourself, creating languagearound that and then ultimately
creating a little bit moreharmony between yourself and
kind of the internal experience.
Eric Bahn (42:33):
Yeah, I think you said it very well, brian.
You know, the last thing thatsort of comes up for me is that,
as I'm sort of like focusing onthat whole area of my body in
this conversation aboutPresident's stomach, the
baseball, whatever, I think thething that kind of strikes me is
that that voice feels quitefriendly.
It's just like I'm here to helpyou.
I'm not here to sabotage you iskind of a thing, and that one I
(42:57):
want to sit with a bit, becauseI've gone through a whole
journey with this, like therapyand things like that, and one of
the things that I keepappreciating more and more and
this is something I hope thatinspires some of the people that
watch this today is that thebody feel, the body listening
like man.
I've ignored that for so muchof my life and the more that I
(43:17):
start to focus on those areas,the more like I'm reaping so
much benefit out of it.
So it's like discovering awhole new part of me.
Even this very briefconversation and yeah, I mean,
I'm sure people have their funnyleft foot or whatever they're
telling them different things,and this one was a it gave me a
(43:38):
lot to actually sit with.
I really appreciate this somuch.
Brian Wang (43:41):
Yeah, fantastic, awesome, eric.
So we're going to start to wrapup, and I think the main thing
I would really encourage you todo and this is just really
underscoring what you've alreadymentioned is returning to that
topic of presence.
How do I be more present withmy family?
What's getting in the way of it?
I think it starts with can youget more present with what's
(44:02):
happening internally?
Can you notice when the sort ofangry shoulder is starting to
come up?
Can you notice when thebaseball in the stomach is
showing up?
And even slowing down for abrief moment to pay attention to
what it's saying, what it'swanting you to know, and then
(44:24):
proceeding from there willreally make it more likely that
you're not just kind of going inthat autopilot mode and rather,
oh okay, can I really tune inand then from there decide what
I'm going to do.
Eric Bahn (44:40):
No, I really like that.
I think you know I'm not.
I don't want to go like goingback to like this notion of like
ending your day with a ritualkind of thing.
I think the problem with me,like taking a walk was like, oh,
it's like 20 minutes.
I only got, like you know,three and a half hours of my
family, like sure.
But this one actually I thinkis really actionable, Is like I
almost feel like a good way forme to end my day now would be
(45:02):
like just a quick body check.
You know, like how's theshoulder, how's the stomach?
Okay, now that you know that,go inside.
And even that is like a smallthing, that maybe it takes like
a minute, but it just is one ofthose things that might just be.
The one more reminder is likedays over, all right, so let's
try to do a little bit bettertoday.
Brian Wang (45:24):
Right, right, yeah, awesome, all right, Eric.
I look forward to hearing howthis goes for you then.
Eric Bahn (45:32):
Thanks, brian, appreciate you so much, buddy.
Brian Wang (45:34):
We went on a bit of a journey here with Eric.
He started off with a fear thatmany of us can share Am I
addicted to my phone?
And that opened up anexploration into feelings of
anxiety and guilt when it comesto balancing work and family
life.
For Eric, he was already prettyfamiliar with that feeling of
anxiety.
It showed up in his leftshoulder and that tightness and
it had a voice.
The voice essentially wassaying you're not gonna last
(45:55):
much longer.
You'd better hurry to providefor your family.
But when Eric was able to slowdown, give some space to that
voice, he was actually able todeconstruct that belief and that
story a bit, and he noticedthat his urge to work relaxed in
that moment.
Now, when it came to the guilt,we had to spend a little bit
more time there.
Eric came up with this funnymetaphor the idea of the hungry
(46:16):
baseball.
Now it sounds silly, but what'sreally useful about metaphors,
especially in coaching, is thatit gives us language, conscious
language, to name unconsciousfeelings and then, as a result,
we can actually spend some timeexpressing and processing those
feelings that are just having somuch hold over us.
And so, by making that guiltmore conscious, eric actually
(46:37):
remembered something reallyimportant.
He actually doesn't care a lotabout work when he's in those
moments of full engagement withhis family.
He has these really joyfulmoments and memories that he can
draw back on when he is campingoff the grid or when he's in an
immersive travel experience orwhen he's playing sports with
his kids.
So he just had this moment ofremembering.
Yeah, that's all available tome, and in that sense, the guilt
(47:00):
wasn't really a problem.
It actually pointed to what hedeeply, deeply cared about.
Now don't get me wrong switchingfrom work mode to family mode
can be a challenging transition.
Fortunately, eric now has sometools that can make that
transition a little bit easier.
He can check in with his body,notice what feelings are arising
and then use those as pointersto what he really really cares
(47:21):
about, and from there he canmake a choice as to how he shows
up in the moment.
Thank you for listening.
To Slow Down, to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed this episode,please rate it in your favorite
podcasting app, and if you're astartup founder who wants to
reach the next level throughcoaching or you'd like to come
onto the show, please contact meat dashingleadershipcom.
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