April 15, 2024 • 50 mins
Part of a founder’s job is to recruit the right people to your team. But how do you handle a situation where someone seems great on paper, but triggers a gut feeling that something is off? How do you stay authentic in a way that fosters trust with others? And what does a past experience of betrayal have to do with all this? These are the questions that Lauren Tracy brings to our coaching session. Together, we explore how her self-doubt is impacting her current venture and her ability to trust potential teammates. And we discover how success doesn't have to come at the expense of authenticity but in fact, relies on it.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Part of a founder's job is to recruit the right
people to your team, but how doyou handle a situation where you
meet someone who looksincredible on paper and yet you
get a weird gut feeling aboutthem?
There are some red flags thatyou can't really even put your
finger on.
How do you stay true toyourself while also building
trust with others?
These are the questions thatLauren Tracy brings to our
(00:21):
session today.
Lauren is a serial entrepreneur, and what makes these questions
especially challenging for heris the shadow of her past.
In her last startup, shesuffered a major betrayal, which
not only caused a lot of hurt,it also created a lot of
self-doubt in her and herability to make decisions moving
forward.
By the end of our session,Lauren finds some new ways to
(00:41):
understand her blind spot, aswell as steps that she can take
to build more trust with herselfand others.
Enjoy, hey, Lauren.
It's great to see you today.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's nice to see you too, Brian.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, I'm really excited to be on this call with
you, and so let me justintroduce you to our audience.
So Lauren Tracy is theco-founder and former CEO of a
company called Blue Fever, andtoday she is the founder and CEO
of a company called Mood Ring,which does smart jewelry for
mental wellness.
And, lauren, you and I haveknown each other for a while now
(01:16):
.
We worked together, gosh, maybea couple years ago, and
nowadays you actually help withthe podcast.
Some people may not know that,so it's fun to be able to get
into a session with you heretoday and I'm really jazzed and
let me just hand it off to youwe chatted a little bit before
this, and why don't you tell mea bit about why we're here and
(01:37):
what you're wanting to focus on?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, it's fun to be on the other side, but also,
like I was saying, a littlenerve wracking too.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Always so in the scenes, butthat's okay, that's why we're
here.
Okay, so there's been this isan extension of what we worked
on together before and it iscoming up for me now again, and
that's that.
(01:59):
I am starting, as you said, mysecond tech wellness company and
I'm very excited.
But recently these red flagshave been bubbling up for me in
my gut about a potentialcollaborator, and I told myself
in the past and recently that ifI felt these feelings, I would
(02:22):
walk away.
I'd be like maybe this isn'tthe right partnership for me,
even if I can't articulateexactly factually why.
Because when I've ignored thoseflags in the past, it's come
back to burn me and my startupand on paper, this new
collaborator is the right personas far as I, um, but I'm trying
(02:46):
to figure out how do I staytrue to my gut and what I need
as a founder to sustain myselfright through this process while
also giving my startup the besttalent and leg up that I can
and like?
My question is can I do both ofthose things?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, Right from the bat, it feels like maybe those
two things are at odds the ideaof staying true to yourself and
your needs, as well as gettingthe best talent possible to
maximize the chances of successfor your startup, and from what
(03:29):
you're saying, there's likethose might be opposing forces
in some sense is what I'mhearing from you in terms of the
present day.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes, and this is probably like a conditioning
thing, but there's some part ofme that's like just get over it,
like don't be a baby, just dowhat you need to do, kind of
thing.
Yeah, like for the business andfor your ambition.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
But I know that that's not.
It's not a black and whiteanswer.
I know, I know that that'swrong.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
To some extent.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, it's great, and I'm glad that you brought up
black and white, because, well,let me actually just dial it
back and let's just get clear onwhere you're trying to end up
ultimately.
So I'm going to paraphrase whatI heard from you and I want to
actually just check it out withyou and see if that feels right
and if it doesn't, I want you tomaybe say it in your own words.
(04:29):
What I'm hearing from you,lauren, is that at this current
juncture, you're really tryingto bring on great people.
There's a potentialcollaborator and what you're
really trying to work through ismaybe it's with this person or
maybe it's more broadly.
Maybe it's with this person ormaybe it's more broadly like get
to a place where you reallyfeel like you are capable of
(04:49):
taking care of your own needsand bringing on the best people,
because right now it doesn'treally feel like you can.
Is that accurate?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
that's very accurate and, like when you said that I,
I actually felt like a littlebit of um, I don't know like
tightness or kind of butterfliesin my chest.
It was like that's the thingthat I've been working on.
It's some of the stuff that I'mtrying to help, you know, other
people with, with my companytoo.
So it's I need to live it.
(05:15):
First one because I need to andwant to, but, um, I can't.
It's like I can't let myselfget too stressed out about well,
really about anything, but thisparticular issue seems to spike
my stress faster than otherthings and I want to be able to
(05:37):
regulate that.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah, so the the butterflies.
I wonder if you could justspeak more to that when you
notice it come up.
What was the message that youheard, if anything?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Um, kind of like get ready to run, yeah, yeah, like
this, you don't.
You're like like it's like aheightened, heightened like
watching out for danger, likesomething feels wrong, um, and
(06:11):
it hasn't quite showed its faceyet, I guess, and like look out
for the face in case you have tosprint away okay, so it's not
telling you to run quite yet, uh, however, it's anticipating
that there's like oh, we'reexpecting that we will need to
do that, so get ready, let's beprepared to flee.
(06:33):
Which means, like I'm guessing,the feeling I'm getting, which
is like similar to maybe when Iplay sports, is like a rush of
like adrenaline, but I'm like Idon't actually need to do
anything with it right now, andso that energy is um kind of
exhausting.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I bet, yeah I.
When the body's priming to takeaction like that, but you
actually there's nowhere for theenergy to go, then it can be
really super uncomfortable,Right Cause it's wanting to be
expressed or released in somesense.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And actually now that you say that I and like
uncomfortable right, becauseit's wanting to be expressed or
released in some sense, andactually now that you say that
and like that I was talkingabout sports, I remember that
when I've had this feeling inthe past that I've taken care of
it better, one of the ways thathelps me the most is to play
sports.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, cool.
So you're already noticingthere's something around
physical movement in the bodythat can be helpful here.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, but it's like a partial solution.
Yeah, like a coping mechanism.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah.
So why don't we try this andjust go directly into start from
the end, right?
So you were saying can I takecare of my needs and recruit the
best people possible?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And so what is it about that question that's even
making it a question right now?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Um, I've had this fear of what, if so, there's.
There needs to be a littlecontext here, I think in the
past, um, I've worked with avery, very close collaborator
(08:21):
that I ended up not being ableto trust because I realized
there was a lot of lyinghappening.
But it took me years to fullysee what was going on and it
hurt my trust in myself becauseI chose to partner with that
(08:43):
person, in myself, because Ichose to partner with that
person and my ability movingforward to pick people who are
both good for the business,which I have less of a concern
about I think I can pick peoplefor that reason and are also
good collaborators for me as aperson and a business person is
(09:09):
like I'm just not as confidentin that second part anymore.
I was just sort of like overconfident, naive about it before
.
It's like I didn't know that Ineeded to even look for that,
look for a solution for that.
It was just like I justpartnered with people who are
like, excited about whatever itis I was doing, and people are
(09:29):
excited about this new venturetoo, potentially even more
people than before, and sothere's this filtering that I
have to do, which is great, okay, like great problem to have,
yeah, but um, now I have tofilter out some other levels
because and as a second timefounder, I have more choice.
(09:50):
Now I can choose this reallygood person or this really good
person, but I am worried thatI'm going to choose the wrong
person again for me, or maybe acouple people here and there,
and that I won't know that untilit's quote too late, like it
was last time.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, so I can already sense that there's a lot
of emotional charge in thisparticular area, so we're going
to definitely come back to that.
I want to just clarifysomething you said, um, kind of
picking the right people for meor collaborators for me, and I'm
wondering if you can say moreabout that.
(10:34):
Like, what did you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I I really enjoy working with people that give me
energy, and I found that I canwork with really smart people
who can get a job done, let'ssay, but for some reason the
interactions with them aredraining and I don't really have
the ability as a founder tohave um time to recharge.
(11:15):
Nor do I want to do that tomyself, like drain myself in
meetings to then go into anotherone needing to pretend I'm
energized Just not really agreat way to operate.
So I think that's like thebiggest part there, and then and
then I guess I use thatlanguage too because, like these
(11:39):
people I'm talking about may beperfectly fine with working
with other people and they mightenergize somebody else, right,
or even might energize mesometimes, but then other times
not.
So it's.
It's about finding the peoplethat I resonate with the best
again to like sustain and likelift me up as a solo founder.
(12:01):
That's going to be you know I'mgoing to need that feeling of
being lifted up by the peoplearound me too.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Especially at such an early stage.
I would argue that if you'relike you have, you know, 20, 30,
40 people, you don't need tonecessarily hire like hire for
that, exclusively by that point.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Right Also not interacting with each of those
people as often.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, but at this stage, yeah, Ithink that that actually makes a
lot of sense to me.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
So but let me add something.
Yeah, I was listening to thispodcast.
My dad's like super intohistory and he was.
He asked me to listen to thispodcast on Abraham Lincoln and
how he functioned in workingwith people and it has stuck
(12:50):
with me for like a month nowwhere he was able to be friends
with or friendly with andrespectful of people who had
totally different opinions andvalues than him and even were
maybe politically against himright In his work, and he knew
(13:12):
that in order to move the needleon whatever it is he was trying
to get done, he had tounderstand the other side.
And then he had, and then he hadlike I assume the way I was
listening to it boundaries up,like it's not like you're best
friends with the people who are,you know, totally opposite of
you, but maybe you can worktogether to a certain extent, at
(13:35):
a certain level, without maybe,you know, giving away 50% of
your company or whatever it isin my case.
In my case and I have had thislike point of view for the last
couple of years of don't partnerwith anybody, like that, and
now I'm like that's not fullyfeasible and also like I can
learn how to handle it, and Ithink this would be good for me
(13:57):
to learn how to do better andmanage it in the in between, as
opposed to to the opposite endsof that spectrum.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So what that sounded like to me is, when you think
about the Lincoln example.
It sounds like he is somebodywho knew how to kind of properly
slot people into his life andhe wasn't out to be best friends
with everybody.
He was arguably after somethinglike a much greater agenda,
(14:31):
something that he really caredabout, and he needed to recruit
people around him to fulfillthat.
And it sounds like that'ssomething that really resonates
with you, or you admire, and itseems like you're contrasting
that with some sense of when youlook at yourself and who you
want to work with.
Or you admire, and it seemslike you're contrasting that
with some sense of like.
When you look at yourself andwho you want to work with, there
is some I don't know how todescribe it like some sense of
(14:53):
like.
I really want us to be reallyclose, or I want the
relationship with this person tolook a certain way.
If I'm going to work with them,like there's a lot of intimacy,
perhaps, or deep connectionfriendship, perhaps.
If I'm going to work with themLike there's a lot of intimacy,
perhaps, or deep connectionfriendship, perhaps I'm throwing
some words out here, I don'tknow if these are matching for
you, but like the sense that Iget, especially as you were
(15:16):
talking about like being in thegray or being in the in-between,
is that it doesn't have like.
It doesn't have to be like, wow, like we're besties, yeah.
Or to be like, wow, like we'rebesties, um.
Or it doesn't have to be likewe're totally cold to each other
.
It can be somewhere in betweenas we're working together.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
So that's what I prefer.
Yeah, Like I my I have my bestfriends, I have the people I'm
really close to, I rely on, Ihave my husband, I have my
parents, these people that I'mconsistently very close with,
intimate with and support me.
In those ways I tend to leanlike naturally, I tend to lean
(15:52):
very friendly and very like Ilike to be just open with the
people that I work with.
But I but I personally see itas a business relationship and
that helps me and I think in thepast, the like, my
(16:13):
interpretation is like theopenness, like friendliness part
Some people can interpret asthe other, as like the
friendship level, and it painsme to like put up boundaries
that may hurt people and I thinkI've like just let the
(16:33):
boundaries melt away because ofthat.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
And how much is that connected to what you were
initially describing, this kindof like sense of needing to flee
the red flags?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
yeah, I have this feeling generally about, like,
if I get in too deep, I mightfeel trapped.
That could be relationships,usually friendships, um, new
friendships, although I pursuethem too, it's just I then I'm
kind of cautious about the waythat they progress.
Um, although this is like morerecent from from the kind of
(17:13):
trauma I've had from the lastbusiness, less so me as a person
, um, but I do feel that waywhen it comes to having a lot of
responsibility.
So, like, if I get to a pointwhere businesses or a startup is
really working, I start to belike, oh shit, this is.
I've told people, I'm going todo it.
(17:35):
I'm now doing it.
I've told people I want to dothis next step.
I want to hit this vision andI'm still very excited about it.
But there's this fear of beinga bird that wants to like get
out of its cage, kind of thing,or at least like know that it
can get out of its cage if itwants to.
And with friendships,especially if, on paper, you
(17:59):
have a business relationshipthat like hooks you together
that freaks me out a little bitokay.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So what I hear is that there is a sense of like
being constrained and andwanting to break free when you
are in too deep in arelationship with somebody yes,
and like if it's going reallywell, I feel good.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
If the better way to put it is if I feel good, I feel
good.
Where it becomes a problem is,if I'm getting red flags, yellow
flags, whatever, even earlyflags, let's say that's when
that trapped feeling starts toset in.
That's when that trappedfeeling starts to set in.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I'm a little confused , though, so because from where
I'm sitting it sounds like thered flag itself is feeling like
you're trapped.
But maybe I'm mishearing it ormisunderstanding it.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Red flag can be anything.
It can be just any negativefeeling in my gut.
It can be oh well, okay, I seewhat you mean.
Wait, can you go?
Can you, can you elaborate onthat more?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
well, we we've spent the last few minutes talking
about how, when, like the waythat you relate to people.
There's, like you know, we canall exist on a on a spectrum of
closeness and intimacy, and whatyou were describing is when
you're you use the words liketoo deep in, too deep with
somebody, then that can feellike you're trapped, and so what
(19:35):
I was hearing was oh, whenLauren is feeling trapped,
that's when she wants to flee.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, I don't know why, but there's something
that's not quite um hitting thenail on the head for me with
that statement.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Great yeah, so how would you update it?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
All I can say so far that I'm realizing is that the
feeling of being in too deep iswhere, like, the fear is living,
and then the trapped thing islike I don't feel trapped yet.
(20:24):
I feel like if I don't dosomething about recognizing this
fear, I will essentially, likeput myself in that cage or I'll
lock the door, lose the key orsomething.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Okay, so there's a few different metaphors going on
here.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, good luck following this audience.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
It's okay.
So Good luck following thisaudience.
That's okay.
Why don't we talk about theactual red flags that you're
noticing, yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
What is it that you're actually feeling you're
responding to right now?
Okay, so I have a really bigopportunity to potentially get
some funding for prototyping outthese smart mood rings, and in
order to do that, I need a lotof people who have expertise
(21:24):
that I don't, and there's a fewpeople on the team that I've
been rounding up recently inorder to make that happen.
One of the relationships Ifound incredibly helpful,
unexpectedly so, and what?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
do you mean Unexpectedly so?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
And what do you mean?
Somebody kind of going aboveand beyond to provide resources
and information and connectionsthat I didn't know existed and
have been, like the ones thatare helpful of, uh, some others
(22:08):
on the team, um, and, and so thelevel of that sort of
participation was a little bitunexpected, because everybody's
helpful, so it was just likeanother level of helpful yeah,
so there was like somegenerosity there.
Yes, yes, and I got the feelingof like, like my, my, my
(22:38):
business brain was like yes, myemotional brain was like be
careful, I don't want, I don'tlike to feel like I um, like oh
someone something.
And in this relationship I'vehad in the past, there was this
(22:58):
like expectation of it, valuewas given, like at some point I
would oh this person somethingand I wouldn't even know what it
was.
And there was that attitude andI don't subscribe to that.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Okay, so your past experience, where things felt
maybe somewhat transactional orthere was like a if I'm going to
do something for you, then younow owe me, there's a debt seems
to be sort of making its wayinto the current day, where
here's somebody who is kind ofgoing above and beyond to
(23:34):
provide help and be generous,and there's that old feeling
again and and you hadexperienced some pain in the
past with something that sort ofand I don't have any signals
yet that this person is going tofeel like I owe them something
in the same way.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
But I'm filling in those blanks so let me ask you
something, realizing that rightnow, let me ask you something.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
So if that person I'm not saying that they will, but
let's say there's a world wherethey're like lauren, I did all
this stuff for you.
What are you gonna do for me?
If it were that explicit, howwould you respond to that Great?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
No, actually, if it was explicit it would be great.
The problem is when it's notexplicit and it seeps into the,
the, the attitude, or like,almost like um it's the best way
to describe this Like what Icould perceive as like
retaliation for something Idon't even know what it's for.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Hmm, that sounds like uh to me, like someone starts
to act, uh, passive,aggressively, and is not, and
they're not being clear, they'renot communicating clearly as to
what their intentions are orwhat's driving their behavior,
or what they're wanting.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Right, and I like to so upfront.
You know, with this new personand with everybody I work with,
I'm trying to be like what can I, how, how do I pay you?
Let's put this down on paper.
Let's make sure I fullyunderstand what your motivations
and goals are.
Let's create a win-win scenarioup front and if it changes
(25:15):
along the way, we'll talk aboutit kind of thing.
Very helpful for me and how Ifunction.
Great, Um, so we're doing that.
Yep, I just don't want to havethis like stuff running in my
head in the background.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah.
I just noticed that that smileand laugh start to come on your
face.
I'm curious what was coming upfor you.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I've done a lot of getting a little bit emotional
about this, but I've done a lotof work on doing the stuff that
I can control and I would reallylike to be able to let go of
(26:06):
that last.
I'm not really sure what thepercentage is, probably
somewhere between like 10 and25%, which is a kind of a range
that that kind of confuses mesometimes of the emotional work
I'm doing in my body and mybrain to cope with the stuff I
(26:28):
can't control and this isprobably not realistic.
But like I just want that lastpercentage to go away yeah,
maybe we can refine that a bit.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
So when you talk about this thing that you're not
wanting, or you wanted to goaway you said it's like the
thing that you can't control.
Can you get more specific, likewhat's the thing that you're
like really wanting to push outhere?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
if someone's going to behave a certain way, they're
going to behave a certain way,whether I can predict it or not
yeah um, and there's listeningto my gut and taking action on
(27:26):
that, and then there's an addedlayer of worry, even though I am
listening to my gut and takingaction on that, and I want the
added layer of worry todissipate so that I can just do
the things I love to do, youknow, and I don't want it to
(27:47):
slow me down or anything likethat.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
What's the worry telling you?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
ambition may take over my taking care of myself.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
And what has it believing that that's going to
be the case?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Because I've done it before and what has it believing
that that's going to be thecase?
Because I've done it before andthe fallout of that was way
worse than if I had just takencare of myself along the way.
(28:47):
I believe I can't say for sure,obviously, but that was my
experience of it, yeah sorry.
No, no, there's Go ahead.
I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, I hear there's a party that really, really
wants you to take care ofyourself.
Yeah, and I'm really curiouswhat that would look like.
Either what would that looklike in this present day
situation, and or what wouldthat have looked like in the
prior situation.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, um yeah.
In the prior situation it wouldhave looked like if I had some
kind of gut reaction that feltnegative.
I've lost the feel positive.
I make decisions based on itall the time, right, but when it
felt negative I would tend toignore it.
And when it felt positive Iwould tend to listen and do
something.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, so meaning like you had the gut reaction prior,
but you ignored it.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, yeah, so meaning like you had the gut
reaction prior but you ignoredit.
Yeah, okay, yeah, and I I knowwhy I ignored it.
Um, and I want to work onmaking those blockers easier
from or breaking those blockersdown.
So like, for example, thoseblockers easier from or breaking
(30:09):
those blockers down, so like,for example, if I had a bad gut
feeling and doing somethingabout it meant confronting
somebody about something that Iknew they would be not happy to
hear, small, or I would do it insmall ways, but if it was kind
(30:32):
of major for that person, Iwouldn't do it.
Yeah, especially the closer meand that person got, and I now
know that that wasn't a singularmy fault thing, cause I know
this person is very good atgetting close to people.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
But, but let's, yeah, so so it.
If.
If you are brought it up, thenit.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
It wouldn't have been a happy time for this other
person is what I'm hearing andit would not have been a happy
time, and I also think that I Iin my gut, realized that there
would be some kind ofretaliation and I didn't know
what that looked like and andnot being able to understand
that kind of scared me, um, forthe relationship and for my
business, and so I sort of justsaid you can handle this, you
(31:25):
can give up this one littlething, which probably wasn't
really that little Um, but Itold myself that and did that in
kind of increasing levels, likeignored, and increasing levels
until when I finally was likewait a second, this is really
(31:48):
bad For me and for other thingsI doing something about.
It was like the hardest doingsomething about it because it
was like I had, it was like thepattern of I had let, I had let
the pattern happen, and so itjust like snowballed and a lot
(32:09):
more had to happen for me to dosomething about it.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Absolutely yeah.
Are you familiar with um GaborMate at all?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
No.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Um, so he's a, he's an author, he's a psychologist,
um, and he's written severalbooks, and one of the things
that he talks about is the kindof relationship between
authenticity and connection, andone of the things that we
humans often do, especially aschildren, is because we're so
(32:39):
wired for connection andattachment, we will sacrifice
our own authenticity in order topreserve connection.
And authenticity to be morespecific is what is it that
we're desiring, what is it thatwe're needing, what is it that
we're feeling?
And a really good way to erodeour own trust in ourselves is to
(33:01):
deny our own authenticity infavor of that connection.
And so what I hear from you,lauren, is that in that scenario
, you did have a gut feeling,something that needed attention,
something that you were hearing, and you chose connection
instead.
And, by the way, that's not acriticism, by the way, I think
(33:22):
it's the most normal thing inthe world.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I don't take it as such.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, there's something really to appreciate
about that.
Um, but there are alsoconsequences to it, right?
It's like there's like somesense of like I'm denying my own
authenticity.
I'm going to mask it, I'm goingto hide that until eventually
it reaches a point where I canno longer do that, and then
there's going to be more of amore of an eruption at that.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
I 100% resonate with that, which is sad to reflect on
because I've always consideredmyself a pretty authentic person
up more.
I guess I have to work onkeeping that openness with my
(34:18):
authenticity.
Um, I don't fit into a box.
For example, I'd love to goback to something that you made
me realize a few minutes ago,because I think I might be able
to make, like, leave here withsomething actionable, um, from
it.
And that is that.
(34:39):
The reasons why I don't takeaction sometimes when I have
these negative feelings isbecause those things are really
hard for me to take action on.
As I have these negativefeelings is because those things
are really hard for me to takeaction on as a person Like I've
never really been good at it.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Um, and maybe I need to just identify what those
things are and just practicethem in like smaller ways.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
I'm all about small, small steps and practice.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Yeah, is there anything I?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
know we used to do this right between sessions.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Is there anything that's coming up specifically
for you, or do you want to likeworkshop it a?
Speaker 2 (35:20):
bit, Only one, and I feel like it's probably not the
full extent of them all.
So the one is what I saidbefore if I am going to hurt
someone, if I know taking careof myself is going to hurt
someone else, it's just veryhard.
(35:45):
And the only person I would sayI've mastered this with maybe
that's not even the right wordis my husband, and we have known
each other for like 16 years,so there's been a lot of
practice there and we have a lotof reason to practice Right.
(36:06):
Doing it with close friends notgood at have done very rare,
doing them strangers, maybe alittle easier yeah yeah, I don't
like it so all of that, uh,really resonates with me.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
I mean, look, this is such a human challenge.
How do we reveal ourselves toanother person without hurting
their feelings, withoutupsetting them?
And I use that word revealintentionally, because I think
that one of the things that canget very tricky when it comes to
(36:46):
interpersonal dynamics is thatwhen we communicate to another
person, we can veryunintentionally be very sloppy,
and so in this instance, sloppymight be.
Hey, it seems like you're maybeexpecting something on the
other end of this favor thatyou're doing for me, just to
(37:08):
make up an example here.
And so I'm sort of projectingsome intention on that person.
I'm assuming I know, right, andif I'm on the other side, it
could be very easy for me totake that personally.
Wow, this person doesn't knowwhat I'm actually about.
Like, they don't understandwhat my intentions are or how
could they think that about me,right?
(37:28):
And so when I go back to thisword reveal, I'm being I'm
trying to be very precise withmy words here Revealing meaning.
I'm going to take a moment toshare with you my own internal
experience of how thisrelationship is for me, how
relating to you is, and reallytaking full ownership of that,
(37:50):
taking full ownership of that,acknowledging that I'm probably
operating with a lot ofassumptions, a lot of beliefs,
filters of interpretation thatare causing me to experience our
relationship in a certain wayand I want to bring that up with
you, not to be judge, jury andexecutioner or to assume I know
(38:11):
the truth, but to actually helpyou understand me a little bit
better and then actually buildtrust and learn with you.
So I'll pause there and I justwant to see just how that whole
concept has landed with you.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Totally get it.
Get it in theory.
Yeah yeah.
I think it is largely how myhusband and I now successfully
have these conversations.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Great.
So you have actual, you knowlived experience of this.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, like I know it works.
Yeah, focusing on myself andalso telling that person what I
need, or telling them I don'tneed anything, but it may turn
into something later and I don'twant them to feel weirded out
when they can sense that andwe'll address it as it goes
along.
But like there's this otherpart of me that I want to make
sure I recognize and let out umkind of like fuck that, because
(39:13):
in some cases I feel like I'vebeen really manipulated and
taken advantage of um and inother cases I am like this is
either my thing and I need toaddress that with this person as
(39:36):
my my thing, that I'm workingon so that they're aware, and
then there's this middle groundwhere it's like maybe this
person is getting something fromme that I find to be um maybe
(39:58):
in the spectrum of like, feels alittle wrong, so it's.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
It sounds like there's a little bit of a black
and white there, there's eitherlike this party is like fuck
that they're like well, yeah,like either I can protect myself
or I can reveal myself andconnect with this person.
But I can't do either, I can'tdo both.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
I think that with most people, I feel like it can
do both, I can do the middle, Ican do.
I can or both.
I don't know if that's theright way of putting it.
I can own my side, ask for whatI need, try to find out if
there's anything I can listen to.
On their side, most people, Ifeel that Okay, so this person
(40:37):
that you're thinking about rightnow, this potential
collaborator.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
What does it look like to do both of those with
this person?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
I don't know.
I don't know, but because I'vegotten signals that remind me of
the version where I'm like I'vetried it.
It doesn't work with thisperson, this past person in the
past because I have similarsignals.
My fear is that if I do thatwith this person try to have
this kind of open conversationit won't go well.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Or I will be revealing myself and they won't
Yep, and then I'll be at like adeficit or something.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Either way, you're going to find out more
information.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
It's just scary.
You're right, it is scary, Iget it, but that's also how you
build trust with yourself andwith others.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.
Now I'm trying to go like whatexactly are you going to say?
Speaker 1 (42:01):
How about starting with what's true for you,
meaning like what's true for youin the presence of this person?
Should I do that here now, ifyou want?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
to try it on sure.
So, part of what I would wanthere.
Okay, here's, if I didn't havethe fear, if I didn't have this,
the scariness, fear thinghere's what I would say.
I would say I would say, um,it's going to be more bullet
points than the exact language,but I would get at the points of
(42:43):
.
There are some things aboutyour, uh, generosity, your
helpfulness, that I was notexpecting.
That remind me of a pastcollaborator I had where we
worked really well together andwe did a lot of really good work
together.
On the flip side, I get a sensethat how do I uh express this?
(43:19):
Okay, I'm just saying this toyou, brian, for a second,
because it's what I'm observing,but I don't know how I would
say this to somebody.
Um, I get the feeling that shewants more than what I am
willing to give, and that goesboth, like, um, socially, I
(43:40):
would say, as well as in abusiness capacity, and I feel
badly about that.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
What makes you feel bad about it?
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Because if I choose to work with that person because
I do think that they have valueand they want more and I have
their reins and I won't givethem more.
They're always I might.
I fear that they're alwaysgoing to feel like slighted.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
What makes you not trust them to ask for what they
want?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
A lot of people don't .
A lot of people don't, and inmy experience, um, women do it a
lot less.
They, they don't ask for whatthey want and need, and I work
with mostly women, so it's beenmy experience that I have to
pull that out of them when, um,and that's been something I've
(44:43):
had to learn how to do becauseit's not exactly natural to me.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Another way of putting that is you're, you're
taking on a lot ofresponsibility for them.
Yeah, like the fact thatsomeone isn't asking for what
they want isn't actually aresponsibility well, I just
(45:13):
thought of my baby.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
In his case, it is my responsibility.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah, but we're working with adults, not babies.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
I agree with you.
I assume, yeah, yep, I think ifI just continue to ask people to
pay attention to what they wantand to, um, give them the space
and format in whatever formatthey want, because a lot of
(45:44):
people will be like fine, sayingit over email, but like can't
say it to your face, let's sayit's too nerve-wracking for them
.
Um, I would rather work withpeople that can say to my face,
because it's easier for me tohave that kind of process, um,
think about it, you know,offline, but it's uh, the
quickness of that I appreciate,and like the lack of also, I
(46:08):
think I can, I can read theirface and go like, are they, does
this really what they are?
Is there something missing thatthey're not saying?
And I can tell that on a facequickly, but't necessarily tell
it, like you know, over email.
So, um, my preference would belike real directness that way,
uh, but I think maybe I justneed to like make it clear that
(46:28):
I want that from people up frontand throughout relationships
and that would be a great wayfor you to model that I want
them to win.
However, they want to win great.
If they can get that in apartnership with me, great, and
if they can't, I'm going to haveto tell them that's right, yeah
(46:49):
, okay, yeah, okay.
I know what.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
I have to do, yeah, so we're going to wrap in a
minute, but I'd love to hearwhat just popped up with the
thing that you know you got todo here.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
I.
What I need to do is I need tostick to my guns about what I
want, don't want, can give I'mnot willing to give and be clear
with people and also be open toasking people and hearing that
(47:28):
they want something I can't give.
And practicing telling them Ican do these things, I can't do
these things.
And if you're not 100 satisfiedwith it, I totally understand.
Um and not feeling and andrecognizing that that's okay and
they don't have to feel likebad or so sorry about it.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah, and if you kept on doing that, what you just
described what do you think thatwould do for your self-trust?
Speaker 2 (48:03):
I just, I just would stop worrying.
And the worry is the is wherethe self, the confidence and
trusting myself starts to erode.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Yeah, I feel a lot less scared right now Great,
more hopeful Cause.
I've been wanting to talk tothis person about this and I'm
like how do I tell them this?
You know, I'm like, so I havethis trauma from my life, turns
out you're triggering it Likewhat?
That's too hard to hear, right?
So I need to be more explicit.
(48:37):
I think, about what isactionable for them.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Thanks, Brian.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You got it.
I look forward to hearing howit goes.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Me too yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
Yeah, awesome, great to be with you, lauren.
Self-doubt is a really commonobstacle for founders.
It also happens to be anappropriate response to
situations where you deny yourown experience.
When we fail to meet importantneeds of ours, some part of us
will naturally go and questionwhether or not we're going to
stand up for ourselves in futuretough situations and often
these situations have to do withother people, as we're so wired
(49:15):
for connection that we willoften avoid honest, vulnerable
conversations in order tomaintain connection.
But if we continually withholdourselves to avoid rocking the
boat, eventually it will comeback to bite us.
The critical reframe for Laurenwas going from authenticity
versus connection toauthenticity creating connection
.
Rather than having to chooseone versus the other, lauren can
(49:37):
trust that by being fullyherself, including her
boundaries, she will eventuallyend up with the relationships
characterized by high commitmentand openness, and those things
will undoubtedly support her inher quest to build a high
performance team.
Thank you for listening to SlowDown, to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed this episode,please give it a rating in your
favorite podcasting app or giveit a like and subscribe on
(49:57):
YouTube.
And for your founder looking toreach the next level through
coaching?
Or you'd like to come on theshow.
Please contact me atdashingleadershipcom.
Part of a founder's job is to recruit the right
people to your team, but how doyou handle a situation where you
meet someone who looksincredible on paper and yet you
get a weird gut feeling aboutthem?
There are some red flags thatyou can't really even put your
finger on.
How do you stay true toyourself while also building
trust with others?
These are the questions thatLauren Tracy brings to our
(00:21):
session today.
Lauren is a serial entrepreneur, and what makes these questions
especially challenging for heris the shadow of her past.
In her last startup, shesuffered a major betrayal, which
not only caused a lot of hurt,it also created a lot of
self-doubt in her and herability to make decisions moving
forward.
By the end of our session,Lauren finds some new ways to
(00:41):
understand her blind spot, aswell as steps that she can take
to build more trust with herselfand others.
Enjoy, hey, Lauren.
It's great to see you today.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's nice to see you too, Brian.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, I'm really excited to be on this call with
you, and so let me justintroduce you to our audience.
So Lauren Tracy is theco-founder and former CEO of a
company called Blue Fever, andtoday she is the founder and CEO
of a company called Mood Ring,which does smart jewelry for
mental wellness.
And, lauren, you and I haveknown each other for a while now
(01:16):
.
We worked together, gosh, maybea couple years ago, and
nowadays you actually help withthe podcast.
Some people may not know that,so it's fun to be able to get
into a session with you heretoday and I'm really jazzed and
let me just hand it off to youwe chatted a little bit before
this, and why don't you tell mea bit about why we're here and
(01:37):
what you're wanting to focus on?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, it's fun to be on the other side, but also,
like I was saying, a littlenerve wracking too.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Always so in the scenes, butthat's okay, that's why we're
here.
Okay, so there's been this isan extension of what we worked
on together before and it iscoming up for me now again, and
that's that.
(01:59):
I am starting, as you said, mysecond tech wellness company and
I'm very excited.
But recently these red flagshave been bubbling up for me in
my gut about a potentialcollaborator, and I told myself
in the past and recently that ifI felt these feelings, I would
(02:22):
walk away.
I'd be like maybe this isn'tthe right partnership for me,
even if I can't articulateexactly factually why.
Because when I've ignored thoseflags in the past, it's come
back to burn me and my startupand on paper, this new
collaborator is the right personas far as I, um, but I'm trying
(02:46):
to figure out how do I staytrue to my gut and what I need
as a founder to sustain myselfright through this process while
also giving my startup the besttalent and leg up that I can
and like?
My question is can I do both ofthose things?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, Right from the bat, it feels like maybe those
two things are at odds the ideaof staying true to yourself and
your needs, as well as gettingthe best talent possible to
maximize the chances of successfor your startup, and from what
(03:29):
you're saying, there's likethose might be opposing forces
in some sense is what I'mhearing from you in terms of the
present day.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes, and this is probably like a conditioning
thing, but there's some part ofme that's like just get over it,
like don't be a baby, just dowhat you need to do, kind of
thing.
Yeah, like for the business andfor your ambition.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
But I know that that's not.
It's not a black and whiteanswer.
I know, I know that that'swrong.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
To some extent.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, it's great, and I'm glad that you brought up
black and white, because, well,let me actually just dial it
back and let's just get clear onwhere you're trying to end up
ultimately.
So I'm going to paraphrase whatI heard from you and I want to
actually just check it out withyou and see if that feels right
and if it doesn't, I want you tomaybe say it in your own words.
(04:29):
What I'm hearing from you,lauren, is that at this current
juncture, you're really tryingto bring on great people.
There's a potentialcollaborator and what you're
really trying to work through ismaybe it's with this person or
maybe it's more broadly.
Maybe it's with this person ormaybe it's more broadly like get
to a place where you reallyfeel like you are capable of
(04:49):
taking care of your own needsand bringing on the best people,
because right now it doesn'treally feel like you can.
Is that accurate?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
that's very accurate and, like when you said that I,
I actually felt like a littlebit of um, I don't know like
tightness or kind of butterfliesin my chest.
It was like that's the thingthat I've been working on.
It's some of the stuff that I'mtrying to help, you know, other
people with, with my companytoo.
So it's I need to live it.
(05:15):
First one because I need to andwant to, but, um, I can't.
It's like I can't let myselfget too stressed out about well,
really about anything, but thisparticular issue seems to spike
my stress faster than otherthings and I want to be able to
(05:37):
regulate that.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah, so the the butterflies.
I wonder if you could justspeak more to that when you
notice it come up.
What was the message that youheard, if anything?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Um, kind of like get ready to run, yeah, yeah, like
this, you don't.
You're like like it's like aheightened, heightened like
watching out for danger, likesomething feels wrong, um, and
(06:11):
it hasn't quite showed its faceyet, I guess, and like look out
for the face in case you have tosprint away okay, so it's not
telling you to run quite yet, uh, however, it's anticipating
that there's like oh, we'reexpecting that we will need to
do that, so get ready, let's beprepared to flee.
(06:33):
Which means, like I'm guessing,the feeling I'm getting, which
is like similar to maybe when Iplay sports, is like a rush of
like adrenaline, but I'm like Idon't actually need to do
anything with it right now, andso that energy is um kind of
exhausting.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I bet, yeah I.
When the body's priming to takeaction like that, but you
actually there's nowhere for theenergy to go, then it can be
really super uncomfortable,Right Cause it's wanting to be
expressed or released in somesense.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And actually now that you say that I and like
uncomfortable right, becauseit's wanting to be expressed or
released in some sense, andactually now that you say that
and like that I was talkingabout sports, I remember that
when I've had this feeling inthe past that I've taken care of
it better, one of the ways thathelps me the most is to play
sports.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, cool.
So you're already noticingthere's something around
physical movement in the bodythat can be helpful here.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, but it's like a partial solution.
Yeah, like a coping mechanism.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah.
So why don't we try this andjust go directly into start from
the end, right?
So you were saying can I takecare of my needs and recruit the
best people possible?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And so what is it about that question that's even
making it a question right now?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Um, I've had this fear of what, if so, there's.
There needs to be a littlecontext here, I think in the
past, um, I've worked with avery, very close collaborator
(08:21):
that I ended up not being ableto trust because I realized
there was a lot of lyinghappening.
But it took me years to fullysee what was going on and it
hurt my trust in myself becauseI chose to partner with that
(08:43):
person, in myself, because Ichose to partner with that
person and my ability movingforward to pick people who are
both good for the business,which I have less of a concern
about I think I can pick peoplefor that reason and are also
good collaborators for me as aperson and a business person is
(09:09):
like I'm just not as confidentin that second part anymore.
I was just sort of like overconfident, naive about it before
.
It's like I didn't know that Ineeded to even look for that,
look for a solution for that.
It was just like I justpartnered with people who are
like, excited about whatever itis I was doing, and people are
(09:29):
excited about this new venturetoo, potentially even more
people than before, and sothere's this filtering that I
have to do, which is great, okay, like great problem to have,
yeah, but um, now I have tofilter out some other levels
because and as a second timefounder, I have more choice.
(09:50):
Now I can choose this reallygood person or this really good
person, but I am worried thatI'm going to choose the wrong
person again for me, or maybe acouple people here and there,
and that I won't know that untilit's quote too late, like it
was last time.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, so I can already sense that there's a lot
of emotional charge in thisparticular area, so we're going
to definitely come back to that.
I want to just clarifysomething you said, um, kind of
picking the right people for meor collaborators for me, and I'm
wondering if you can say moreabout that.
(10:34):
Like, what did you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I I really enjoy working with people that give me
energy, and I found that I canwork with really smart people
who can get a job done, let'ssay, but for some reason the
interactions with them aredraining and I don't really have
the ability as a founder tohave um time to recharge.
(11:15):
Nor do I want to do that tomyself, like drain myself in
meetings to then go into anotherone needing to pretend I'm
energized Just not really agreat way to operate.
So I think that's like thebiggest part there, and then and
then I guess I use thatlanguage too because, like these
(11:39):
people I'm talking about may beperfectly fine with working
with other people and they mightenergize somebody else, right,
or even might energize mesometimes, but then other times
not.
So it's.
It's about finding the peoplethat I resonate with the best
again to like sustain and likelift me up as a solo founder.
(12:01):
That's going to be you know I'mgoing to need that feeling of
being lifted up by the peoplearound me too.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Especially at such an early stage.
I would argue that if you'relike you have, you know, 20, 30,
40 people, you don't need tonecessarily hire like hire for
that, exclusively by that point.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Right Also not interacting with each of those
people as often.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, but at this stage, yeah, Ithink that that actually makes a
lot of sense to me.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
So but let me add something.
Yeah, I was listening to thispodcast.
My dad's like super intohistory and he was.
He asked me to listen to thispodcast on Abraham Lincoln and
how he functioned in workingwith people and it has stuck
(12:50):
with me for like a month nowwhere he was able to be friends
with or friendly with andrespectful of people who had
totally different opinions andvalues than him and even were
maybe politically against himright In his work, and he knew
(13:12):
that in order to move the needleon whatever it is he was trying
to get done, he had tounderstand the other side.
And then he had, and then he hadlike I assume the way I was
listening to it boundaries up,like it's not like you're best
friends with the people who are,you know, totally opposite of
you, but maybe you can worktogether to a certain extent, at
(13:35):
a certain level, without maybe,you know, giving away 50% of
your company or whatever it isin my case.
In my case and I have had thislike point of view for the last
couple of years of don't partnerwith anybody, like that, and
now I'm like that's not fullyfeasible and also like I can
learn how to handle it, and Ithink this would be good for me
(13:57):
to learn how to do better andmanage it in the in between, as
opposed to to the opposite endsof that spectrum.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So what that sounded like to me is, when you think
about the Lincoln example.
It sounds like he is somebodywho knew how to kind of properly
slot people into his life andhe wasn't out to be best friends
with everybody.
He was arguably after somethinglike a much greater agenda,
(14:31):
something that he really caredabout, and he needed to recruit
people around him to fulfillthat.
And it sounds like that'ssomething that really resonates
with you, or you admire, and itseems like you're contrasting
that with some sense of when youlook at yourself and who you
want to work with.
Or you admire, and it seemslike you're contrasting that
with some sense of like.
When you look at yourself andwho you want to work with, there
is some I don't know how todescribe it like some sense of
(14:53):
like.
I really want us to be reallyclose, or I want the
relationship with this person tolook a certain way.
If I'm going to work with them,like there's a lot of intimacy,
perhaps, or deep connectionfriendship, perhaps.
If I'm going to work with themLike there's a lot of intimacy,
perhaps, or deep connectionfriendship, perhaps I'm throwing
some words out here, I don'tknow if these are matching for
you, but like the sense that Iget, especially as you were
(15:16):
talking about like being in thegray or being in the in-between,
is that it doesn't have like.
It doesn't have to be like, wow, like we're besties, yeah.
Or to be like, wow, like we'rebesties, um.
Or it doesn't have to be likewe're totally cold to each other
.
It can be somewhere in betweenas we're working together.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
So that's what I prefer.
Yeah, Like I my I have my bestfriends, I have the people I'm
really close to, I rely on, Ihave my husband, I have my
parents, these people that I'mconsistently very close with,
intimate with and support me.
In those ways I tend to leanlike naturally, I tend to lean
(15:52):
very friendly and very like Ilike to be just open with the
people that I work with.
But I but I personally see itas a business relationship and
that helps me and I think in thepast, the like, my
(16:13):
interpretation is like theopenness, like friendliness part
Some people can interpret asthe other, as like the
friendship level, and it painsme to like put up boundaries
that may hurt people and I thinkI've like just let the
(16:33):
boundaries melt away because ofthat.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
And how much is that connected to what you were
initially describing, this kindof like sense of needing to flee
the red flags?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
yeah, I have this feeling generally about, like,
if I get in too deep, I mightfeel trapped.
That could be relationships,usually friendships, um, new
friendships, although I pursuethem too, it's just I then I'm
kind of cautious about the waythat they progress.
Um, although this is like morerecent from from the kind of
(17:13):
trauma I've had from the lastbusiness, less so me as a person
, um, but I do feel that waywhen it comes to having a lot of
responsibility.
So, like, if I get to a pointwhere businesses or a startup is
really working, I start to belike, oh shit, this is.
I've told people, I'm going todo it.
(17:35):
I'm now doing it.
I've told people I want to dothis next step.
I want to hit this vision andI'm still very excited about it.
But there's this fear of beinga bird that wants to like get
out of its cage, kind of thing,or at least like know that it
can get out of its cage if itwants to.
And with friendships,especially if, on paper, you
(17:59):
have a business relationshipthat like hooks you together
that freaks me out a little bitokay.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So what I hear is that there is a sense of like
being constrained and andwanting to break free when you
are in too deep in arelationship with somebody yes,
and like if it's going reallywell, I feel good.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
If the better way to put it is if I feel good, I feel
good.
Where it becomes a problem is,if I'm getting red flags, yellow
flags, whatever, even earlyflags, let's say that's when
that trapped feeling starts toset in.
That's when that trappedfeeling starts to set in.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I'm a little confused , though, so because from where
I'm sitting it sounds like thered flag itself is feeling like
you're trapped.
But maybe I'm mishearing it ormisunderstanding it.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Red flag can be anything.
It can be just any negativefeeling in my gut.
It can be oh well, okay, I seewhat you mean.
Wait, can you go?
Can you, can you elaborate onthat more?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
well, we we've spent the last few minutes talking
about how, when, like the waythat you relate to people.
There's, like you know, we canall exist on a on a spectrum of
closeness and intimacy, and whatyou were describing is when
you're you use the words liketoo deep in, too deep with
somebody, then that can feellike you're trapped, and so what
(19:35):
I was hearing was oh, whenLauren is feeling trapped,
that's when she wants to flee.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, I don't know why, but there's something
that's not quite um hitting thenail on the head for me with
that statement.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Great yeah, so how would you update it?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
All I can say so far that I'm realizing is that the
feeling of being in too deep iswhere, like, the fear is living,
and then the trapped thing islike I don't feel trapped yet.
(20:24):
I feel like if I don't dosomething about recognizing this
fear, I will essentially, likeput myself in that cage or I'll
lock the door, lose the key orsomething.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Okay, so there's a few different metaphors going on
here.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, good luck following this audience.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
It's okay.
So Good luck following thisaudience.
That's okay.
Why don't we talk about theactual red flags that you're
noticing, yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
What is it that you're actually feeling you're
responding to right now?
Okay, so I have a really bigopportunity to potentially get
some funding for prototyping outthese smart mood rings, and in
order to do that, I need a lotof people who have expertise
(21:24):
that I don't, and there's a fewpeople on the team that I've
been rounding up recently inorder to make that happen.
One of the relationships Ifound incredibly helpful,
unexpectedly so, and what?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
do you mean Unexpectedly so?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
And what do you mean?
Somebody kind of going aboveand beyond to provide resources
and information and connectionsthat I didn't know existed and
have been, like the ones thatare helpful of, uh, some others
(22:08):
on the team, um, and, and so thelevel of that sort of
participation was a little bitunexpected, because everybody's
helpful, so it was just likeanother level of helpful yeah,
so there was like somegenerosity there.
Yes, yes, and I got the feelingof like, like my, my, my
(22:38):
business brain was like yes, myemotional brain was like be
careful, I don't want, I don'tlike to feel like I um, like oh
someone something.
And in this relationship I'vehad in the past, there was this
(22:58):
like expectation of it, valuewas given, like at some point I
would oh this person somethingand I wouldn't even know what it
was.
And there was that attitude andI don't subscribe to that.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Okay, so your past experience, where things felt
maybe somewhat transactional orthere was like a if I'm going to
do something for you, then younow owe me, there's a debt seems
to be sort of making its wayinto the current day, where
here's somebody who is kind ofgoing above and beyond to
(23:34):
provide help and be generous,and there's that old feeling
again and and you hadexperienced some pain in the
past with something that sort ofand I don't have any signals
yet that this person is going tofeel like I owe them something
in the same way.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
But I'm filling in those blanks so let me ask you
something, realizing that rightnow, let me ask you something.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
So if that person I'm not saying that they will, but
let's say there's a world wherethey're like lauren, I did all
this stuff for you.
What are you gonna do for me?
If it were that explicit, howwould you respond to that Great?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
No, actually, if it was explicit it would be great.
The problem is when it's notexplicit and it seeps into the,
the, the attitude, or like,almost like um it's the best way
to describe this Like what Icould perceive as like
retaliation for something Idon't even know what it's for.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Hmm, that sounds like uh to me, like someone starts
to act, uh, passive,aggressively, and is not, and
they're not being clear, they'renot communicating clearly as to
what their intentions are orwhat's driving their behavior,
or what they're wanting.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Right, and I like to so upfront.
You know, with this new personand with everybody I work with,
I'm trying to be like what can I, how, how do I pay you?
Let's put this down on paper.
Let's make sure I fullyunderstand what your motivations
and goals are.
Let's create a win-win scenarioup front and if it changes
(25:15):
along the way, we'll talk aboutit kind of thing.
Very helpful for me and how Ifunction.
Great, Um, so we're doing that.
Yep, I just don't want to havethis like stuff running in my
head in the background.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah.
I just noticed that that smileand laugh start to come on your
face.
I'm curious what was coming upfor you.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I've done a lot of getting a little bit emotional
about this, but I've done a lotof work on doing the stuff that
I can control and I would reallylike to be able to let go of
(26:06):
that last.
I'm not really sure what thepercentage is, probably
somewhere between like 10 and25%, which is a kind of a range
that that kind of confuses mesometimes of the emotional work
I'm doing in my body and mybrain to cope with the stuff I
(26:28):
can't control and this isprobably not realistic.
But like I just want that lastpercentage to go away yeah,
maybe we can refine that a bit.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
So when you talk about this thing that you're not
wanting, or you wanted to goaway you said it's like the
thing that you can't control.
Can you get more specific, likewhat's the thing that you're
like really wanting to push outhere?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
if someone's going to behave a certain way, they're
going to behave a certain way,whether I can predict it or not
yeah um, and there's listeningto my gut and taking action on
(27:26):
that, and then there's an addedlayer of worry, even though I am
listening to my gut and takingaction on that, and I want the
added layer of worry todissipate so that I can just do
the things I love to do, youknow, and I don't want it to
(27:47):
slow me down or anything likethat.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
What's the worry telling you?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
ambition may take over my taking care of myself.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
And what has it believing that that's going to
be the case?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Because I've done it before and what has it believing
that that's going to be thecase?
Because I've done it before andthe fallout of that was way
worse than if I had just takencare of myself along the way.
(28:47):
I believe I can't say for sure,obviously, but that was my
experience of it, yeah sorry.
No, no, there's Go ahead.
I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, I hear there's a party that really, really
wants you to take care ofyourself.
Yeah, and I'm really curiouswhat that would look like.
Either what would that looklike in this present day
situation, and or what wouldthat have looked like in the
prior situation.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, um yeah.
In the prior situation it wouldhave looked like if I had some
kind of gut reaction that feltnegative.
I've lost the feel positive.
I make decisions based on itall the time, right, but when it
felt negative I would tend toignore it.
And when it felt positive Iwould tend to listen and do
something.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, so meaning like you had the gut reaction prior,
but you ignored it.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, yeah, so meaning like you had the gut
reaction prior but you ignoredit.
Yeah, okay, yeah, and I I knowwhy I ignored it.
Um, and I want to work onmaking those blockers easier
from or breaking those blockersdown.
So like, for example, thoseblockers easier from or breaking
(30:09):
those blockers down, so like,for example, if I had a bad gut
feeling and doing somethingabout it meant confronting
somebody about something that Iknew they would be not happy to
hear, small, or I would do it insmall ways, but if it was kind
(30:32):
of major for that person, Iwouldn't do it.
Yeah, especially the closer meand that person got, and I now
know that that wasn't a singularmy fault thing, cause I know
this person is very good atgetting close to people.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
But, but let's, yeah, so so it.
If.
If you are brought it up, thenit.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
It wouldn't have been a happy time for this other
person is what I'm hearing andit would not have been a happy
time, and I also think that I Iin my gut, realized that there
would be some kind ofretaliation and I didn't know
what that looked like and andnot being able to understand
that kind of scared me, um, forthe relationship and for my
business, and so I sort of justsaid you can handle this, you
(31:25):
can give up this one littlething, which probably wasn't
really that little Um, but Itold myself that and did that in
kind of increasing levels, likeignored, and increasing levels
until when I finally was likewait a second, this is really
(31:48):
bad For me and for other thingsI doing something about.
It was like the hardest doingsomething about it because it
was like I had, it was like thepattern of I had let, I had let
the pattern happen, and so itjust like snowballed and a lot
(32:09):
more had to happen for me to dosomething about it.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Absolutely yeah.
Are you familiar with um GaborMate at all?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
No.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Um, so he's a, he's an author, he's a psychologist,
um, and he's written severalbooks, and one of the things
that he talks about is the kindof relationship between
authenticity and connection, andone of the things that we
humans often do, especially aschildren, is because we're so
(32:39):
wired for connection andattachment, we will sacrifice
our own authenticity in order topreserve connection.
And authenticity to be morespecific is what is it that
we're desiring, what is it thatwe're needing, what is it that
we're feeling?
And a really good way to erodeour own trust in ourselves is to
(33:01):
deny our own authenticity infavor of that connection.
And so what I hear from you,lauren, is that in that scenario
, you did have a gut feeling,something that needed attention,
something that you were hearing, and you chose connection
instead.
And, by the way, that's not acriticism, by the way, I think
(33:22):
it's the most normal thing inthe world.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I don't take it as such.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, there's something really to appreciate
about that.
Um, but there are alsoconsequences to it, right?
It's like there's like somesense of like I'm denying my own
authenticity.
I'm going to mask it, I'm goingto hide that until eventually
it reaches a point where I canno longer do that, and then
there's going to be more of amore of an eruption at that.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
I 100% resonate with that, which is sad to reflect on
because I've always consideredmyself a pretty authentic person
up more.
I guess I have to work onkeeping that openness with my
(34:18):
authenticity.
Um, I don't fit into a box.
For example, I'd love to goback to something that you made
me realize a few minutes ago,because I think I might be able
to make, like, leave here withsomething actionable, um, from
it.
And that is that.
(34:39):
The reasons why I don't takeaction sometimes when I have
these negative feelings isbecause those things are really
hard for me to take action on.
As I have these negativefeelings is because those things
are really hard for me to takeaction on as a person Like I've
never really been good at it.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Um, and maybe I need to just identify what those
things are and just practicethem in like smaller ways.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
I'm all about small, small steps and practice.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Yeah, is there anything I?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
know we used to do this right between sessions.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Is there anything that's coming up specifically
for you, or do you want to likeworkshop it a?
Speaker 2 (35:20):
bit, Only one, and I feel like it's probably not the
full extent of them all.
So the one is what I saidbefore if I am going to hurt
someone, if I know taking careof myself is going to hurt
someone else, it's just veryhard.
(35:45):
And the only person I would sayI've mastered this with maybe
that's not even the right wordis my husband, and we have known
each other for like 16 years,so there's been a lot of
practice there and we have a lotof reason to practice Right.
(36:06):
Doing it with close friends notgood at have done very rare,
doing them strangers, maybe alittle easier yeah yeah, I don't
like it so all of that, uh,really resonates with me.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
I mean, look, this is such a human challenge.
How do we reveal ourselves toanother person without hurting
their feelings, withoutupsetting them?
And I use that word revealintentionally, because I think
that one of the things that canget very tricky when it comes to
(36:46):
interpersonal dynamics is thatwhen we communicate to another
person, we can veryunintentionally be very sloppy,
and so in this instance, sloppymight be.
Hey, it seems like you're maybeexpecting something on the
other end of this favor thatyou're doing for me, just to
(37:08):
make up an example here.
And so I'm sort of projectingsome intention on that person.
I'm assuming I know, right, andif I'm on the other side, it
could be very easy for me totake that personally.
Wow, this person doesn't knowwhat I'm actually about.
Like, they don't understandwhat my intentions are or how
could they think that about me,right?
(37:28):
And so when I go back to thisword reveal, I'm being I'm
trying to be very precise withmy words here Revealing meaning.
I'm going to take a moment toshare with you my own internal
experience of how thisrelationship is for me, how
relating to you is, and reallytaking full ownership of that,
(37:50):
taking full ownership of that,acknowledging that I'm probably
operating with a lot ofassumptions, a lot of beliefs,
filters of interpretation thatare causing me to experience our
relationship in a certain wayand I want to bring that up with
you, not to be judge, jury andexecutioner or to assume I know
(38:11):
the truth, but to actually helpyou understand me a little bit
better and then actually buildtrust and learn with you.
So I'll pause there and I justwant to see just how that whole
concept has landed with you.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Totally get it.
Get it in theory.
Yeah yeah.
I think it is largely how myhusband and I now successfully
have these conversations.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Great.
So you have actual, you knowlived experience of this.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, like I know it works.
Yeah, focusing on myself andalso telling that person what I
need, or telling them I don'tneed anything, but it may turn
into something later and I don'twant them to feel weirded out
when they can sense that andwe'll address it as it goes
along.
But like there's this otherpart of me that I want to make
sure I recognize and let out umkind of like fuck that, because
(39:13):
in some cases I feel like I'vebeen really manipulated and
taken advantage of um and inother cases I am like this is
either my thing and I need toaddress that with this person as
(39:36):
my my thing, that I'm workingon so that they're aware, and
then there's this middle groundwhere it's like maybe this
person is getting something fromme that I find to be um maybe
(39:58):
in the spectrum of like, feels alittle wrong, so it's.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
It sounds like there's a little bit of a black
and white there, there's eitherlike this party is like fuck
that they're like well, yeah,like either I can protect myself
or I can reveal myself andconnect with this person.
But I can't do either, I can'tdo both.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
I think that with most people, I feel like it can
do both, I can do the middle, Ican do.
I can or both.
I don't know if that's theright way of putting it.
I can own my side, ask for whatI need, try to find out if
there's anything I can listen to.
On their side, most people, Ifeel that Okay, so this person
(40:37):
that you're thinking about rightnow, this potential
collaborator.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
What does it look like to do both of those with
this person?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
I don't know.
I don't know, but because I'vegotten signals that remind me of
the version where I'm like I'vetried it.
It doesn't work with thisperson, this past person in the
past because I have similarsignals.
My fear is that if I do thatwith this person try to have
this kind of open conversationit won't go well.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Or I will be revealing myself and they won't
Yep, and then I'll be at like adeficit or something.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Either way, you're going to find out more
information.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
It's just scary.
You're right, it is scary, Iget it, but that's also how you
build trust with yourself andwith others.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.
Now I'm trying to go like whatexactly are you going to say?
Speaker 1 (42:01):
How about starting with what's true for you,
meaning like what's true for youin the presence of this person?
Should I do that here now, ifyou want?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
to try it on sure.
So, part of what I would wanthere.
Okay, here's, if I didn't havethe fear, if I didn't have this,
the scariness, fear thinghere's what I would say.
I would say I would say, um,it's going to be more bullet
points than the exact language,but I would get at the points of
(42:43):
.
There are some things aboutyour, uh, generosity, your
helpfulness, that I was notexpecting.
That remind me of a pastcollaborator I had where we
worked really well together andwe did a lot of really good work
together.
On the flip side, I get a sensethat how do I uh express this?
(43:19):
Okay, I'm just saying this toyou, brian, for a second,
because it's what I'm observing,but I don't know how I would
say this to somebody.
Um, I get the feeling that shewants more than what I am
willing to give, and that goesboth, like, um, socially, I
(43:40):
would say, as well as in abusiness capacity, and I feel
badly about that.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
What makes you feel bad about it?
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Because if I choose to work with that person because
I do think that they have valueand they want more and I have
their reins and I won't givethem more.
They're always I might.
I fear that they're alwaysgoing to feel like slighted.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
What makes you not trust them to ask for what they
want?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
A lot of people don't .
A lot of people don't, and inmy experience, um, women do it a
lot less.
They, they don't ask for whatthey want and need, and I work
with mostly women, so it's beenmy experience that I have to
pull that out of them when, um,and that's been something I've
(44:43):
had to learn how to do becauseit's not exactly natural to me.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Another way of putting that is you're, you're
taking on a lot ofresponsibility for them.
Yeah, like the fact thatsomeone isn't asking for what
they want isn't actually aresponsibility well, I just
(45:13):
thought of my baby.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
In his case, it is my responsibility.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah, but we're working with adults, not babies.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
I agree with you.
I assume, yeah, yep, I think ifI just continue to ask people to
pay attention to what they wantand to, um, give them the space
and format in whatever formatthey want, because a lot of
(45:44):
people will be like fine, sayingit over email, but like can't
say it to your face, let's sayit's too nerve-wracking for them
.
Um, I would rather work withpeople that can say to my face,
because it's easier for me tohave that kind of process, um,
think about it, you know,offline, but it's uh, the
quickness of that I appreciate,and like the lack of also, I
(46:08):
think I can, I can read theirface and go like, are they, does
this really what they are?
Is there something missing thatthey're not saying?
And I can tell that on a facequickly, but't necessarily tell
it, like you know, over email.
So, um, my preference would belike real directness that way,
uh, but I think maybe I justneed to like make it clear that
(46:28):
I want that from people up frontand throughout relationships
and that would be a great wayfor you to model that I want
them to win.
However, they want to win great.
If they can get that in apartnership with me, great, and
if they can't, I'm going to haveto tell them that's right, yeah
(46:49):
, okay, yeah, okay.
I know what.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
I have to do, yeah, so we're going to wrap in a
minute, but I'd love to hearwhat just popped up with the
thing that you know you got todo here.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
I.
What I need to do is I need tostick to my guns about what I
want, don't want, can give I'mnot willing to give and be clear
with people and also be open toasking people and hearing that
(47:28):
they want something I can't give.
And practicing telling them Ican do these things, I can't do
these things.
And if you're not 100 satisfiedwith it, I totally understand.
Um and not feeling and andrecognizing that that's okay and
they don't have to feel likebad or so sorry about it.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah, and if you kept on doing that, what you just
described what do you think thatwould do for your self-trust?
Speaker 2 (48:03):
I just, I just would stop worrying.
And the worry is the is wherethe self, the confidence and
trusting myself starts to erode.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Yeah, I feel a lot less scared right now Great,
more hopeful Cause.
I've been wanting to talk tothis person about this and I'm
like how do I tell them this?
You know, I'm like, so I havethis trauma from my life, turns
out you're triggering it Likewhat?
That's too hard to hear, right?
So I need to be more explicit.
(48:37):
I think, about what isactionable for them.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Thanks, Brian.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You got it.
I look forward to hearing howit goes.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Me too yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
Yeah, awesome, great to be with you, lauren.
Self-doubt is a really commonobstacle for founders.
It also happens to be anappropriate response to
situations where you deny yourown experience.
When we fail to meet importantneeds of ours, some part of us
will naturally go and questionwhether or not we're going to
stand up for ourselves in futuretough situations and often
these situations have to do withother people, as we're so wired
(49:15):
for connection that we willoften avoid honest, vulnerable
conversations in order tomaintain connection.
But if we continually withholdourselves to avoid rocking the
boat, eventually it will comeback to bite us.
The critical reframe for Laurenwas going from authenticity
versus connection toauthenticity creating connection
.
Rather than having to chooseone versus the other, lauren can
(49:37):
trust that by being fullyherself, including her
boundaries, she will eventuallyend up with the relationships
characterized by high commitmentand openness, and those things
will undoubtedly support her inher quest to build a high
performance team.
Thank you for listening to SlowDown, to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed this episode,please give it a rating in your
favorite podcasting app or giveit a like and subscribe on
(49:57):
YouTube.
And for your founder looking toreach the next level through
coaching?
Or you'd like to come on theshow.
Please contact me atdashingleadershipcom.
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