May 1, 2024 • 43 mins
In recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I speak with Laura Shook Guzman, a seasoned therapist and leadership coach, to explore prevalent mental health issues among entrepreneurs. This episode delves into the pressures founders face, discussing the balance between business demands and personal well-being, and highlighting strategies for managing mental health effectively.
Key Points
- The Most Common Mental Health Challenges Among Founders
- The Importance of Self-Care
- Nature vs. Nurture in Entrepreneurship
- Managing Impressions and Internal Pressures
- Adaptive vs. Maladaptive Coping Strategies
- The Role of Early Family Dynamics
You can watch the episode on YouTube here
Where to find Laura:
Resources Mentioned:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Slow Down, to Speed Up.
I'm your host, brian Wang, andtoday's the start of Mental
Health Awareness Month, so wehave a very special episode with
Laura Shook-Guzman.
Laura is a licensed marriageand family therapist, as well as
a leadership coach forentrepreneurs.
In our conversation, we talkabout the most common mental
health challenges that Laura andI both see in our founder
clients.
This is an incredibly importanttopic because, more often than
(00:22):
not, founders tend to sacrificetheir own well-being in service
of building their companies, notappreciating how it can lead to
serious long-term healtheffects as well as lower their
chances of success in the longrun.
We talk about the nature versusnurture aspects of founder
mental health challenges, theimportance of awareness of our
unconscious survival mechanisms,as well as ways that ambitious
(00:42):
achievers can better take careof themselves along the marathon
of building a startup.
Quick note if you're a founderwho is struggling with their
mental health, I highlyencourage you to seek help,
whether that's with the supportof a therapist, a coach, even a
trusted friend.
There's no shame in gettinghelp.
The fact of the matter is thatwe're all vulnerable humans who
can't go it alone, and there'sno reason for you to go it alone
(01:03):
either.
So I just want to make surethat you're taking care of
yourself throughout this journey.
Okay, let's get into theepisode.
Hope you enjoy.
Hey, laura, it's so great tosee you today.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So good to be here, Brian.
I'm excited about ourconversation.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yes, it is a special conversation For those who are
listening.
This is a pretty unique onewhere you and I are going to
have a chance to talk about somepretty salient topics having to
do with mental health and howmental health sort of presents
itself for founders and startup,entrepreneurs, leaders and
(01:38):
anyone of that.
Ilk and Laura, just tointroduce you to the audience
real quick, you have a reallyunique perspective on this whole
topic.
You're a psychotherapist,you're a coach, you've been
working with clients andfounders.
You've been working as atherapist now for over 20 years,
a coach with founders for over15 years, so you are just a
(02:00):
wealth of knowledge andexperience in this whole realm
and I'm really excited to justdive into this topic with you
today.
And I think, maybe just to kickoff the conversation with you,
given that we're talking about,like, how does mental health
show up for founders, maybe thefirst question I wanted to even
(02:21):
start with is what do you findin your work to be?
You know some of the mostcommon mental health challenges
in the founder population thatyou work with?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, good question, and it's my pleasure to be here.
Brian, thanks for highlightingmental health in this moment for
founders.
You know, it's when I thinkabout the different presenting
challenges that my clients comein.
They really fall into thesebuckets of like fear of failure,
isolation, feeling like they'reall alone and not understood by
(02:58):
people around them.
Also feeling really afraid ofdisappointing people or having
all this responsibility, likeliterally.
I've had clients say likethere's so much on my shoulders
that I sometimes just don't know, you know, what to do, I'm so
afraid that I'm going to botchit Right.
(03:20):
And so there's all this anxiety.
So I'd say like, from a clinicalperspective, from a therapeutic
space, it would be anxiety anddepression, insomnia,
helplessness, crying spells.
You know, I even have peoplekind of, you know, check the box
a little bit on their intake ofthese different experiences
(03:41):
that they're having.
And that's what I see over andover again.
You have these very successful,high performing leaders,
founders, but yet they'reticking those boxes depression,
anxiety, can't sleep, not eating, you know, regular meals,
struggling in my marriage or inmy relationship, struggling to
show up as a parent.
So that is what I am seeing alot for founders and I think the
(04:05):
thing that really struck me ishow everyone they're managing
the impressions they make oneveryone.
So you don't see that they seemgreat.
And then they would come in myoffice, where they had a safe,
confidential space, and open upto say this may look great from
the outside, but I am reallystruggling here.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I mean, that's its own special form of um of
torture, right, just like to goout into the world and and to um
put on a mask, essentially,right, and and and tell people,
hey, I'm fine or I'm doing greator I'm crushing it, um, uh, as
a way to shield the world fromwhat's actually happening
internally.
Right, that's its own form ofstress, and what I heard from
(04:47):
what you were sharing, laura, isthat, whether it's anxiety or
depression, imposter syndrome,burnout, like, so much of what's
underlying that or fueling it,is that isolation, this, this
sort of sense of like, oh, I'mall alone in handling like the
(05:11):
the bulk of the challenge, oreven if I have a team around me,
even if I have co-founders,it's that feeling like it's all
on me.
Um, is kind of the main thing Iheard from you and certainly
resonates with with my ownexperience um, personally, as
well as working, working withclients, um, I'm wondering, like
that feeling of being alone,being isolated, like, how much
(05:34):
of that do you sense is is thenature of the job, versus like a
sort of a self-inflicted umframing that that people put
upon themselves?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I think there's a little bit of that combination
and therapy, as we say.
The nature and the nurture isthere.
It's kind of like there's a bitof you know, the personality
types of those that go intoentrepreneurship are often high
performing individuals that havelearned to sort of have the
wear the mask well, to look likethey've got this, to feel like
(06:07):
they have responsibility, tolook as if they're fine.
They over function maybe, forother people in their life may
have done that when they'reyoung and now they do it now.
So there's sort of thisinternal pressure of I have to
be excellent and this is veryimportant, that I don't burden
anyone else, and so I'm justgoing to figure it out and I
(06:32):
have to do that.
That's just what I do, right?
Is this sort of the mental I'lljust jump in.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I want to let you keep going, but I just what came
up for me as I heard that was Ican also imagine how that
pattern really rewards people.
It rewards people as they'restarting companies right and get
(07:01):
all the accolades.
Then you can see how that mightlead them on a path to starting
companies and raising money andreally achieving, because
you've got that internal driverthat leads them into a position
of being the leader right.
We tend to promote and elevatepeople who are outworking
everyone else and, being veryachievement oriented, who are
(07:24):
outworking everyone else andbeing very achievement oriented,
yes, so it's like a moth to theflame in a way.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Like this is such a good fit for this personality
type to be able to findthemselves in these situations
and they thrive in it To acertain extent in the beginning.
There's also an increase of, ora higher capacity an increase
of, or a higher capacity.
So there has been research DrMichael Freeman, which anyone
that's looked into mental healthfor founders probably has
already heard of his name, he'sa psychiatrist that did research
, touch by fire, to look at whatis this personality?
(07:58):
Is it that founders have acertain amount of a personality
type that leads to having thesemental health issues, or is it
the entrepreneurship itself thatcreates?
the mental health right and thechicken or the egg or the nature
nurture.
And so it is really interesting.
Often we have a higher and Isay we because I'm identifying
(08:18):
right here, just like you, withmy own experience and with my
clients we have a high capacityfor stress and we have a high
capacity for tolerating risk,and so that serves us very well.
In the beginning, I myself am arecovering perfectionist, as
Brene Brown refers to.
I was the golden child in myfamily, so there was like this,
(08:40):
it's familiar and I ran with itand it was really easy to like
take that skill set intobecoming a founder running a
business.
And so, yes, there's like allof this ways in which there's a
personality there and the naturepiece of this or the nurture
I'm sorry, the environmentalpiece of it right, Is that?
(09:02):
well, this is kind of a part ofthe landscape.
The ecosystem is.
You have to manage theimpressions that you're making
on others.
When you are seeking investment, you want to look like a good
investment.
You want to look solid.
You don't want to, you know,appear that you could be
struggling with your mentalhealth.
You want to appear that strongwith all your key stakeholders,
(09:22):
which may be also friends andfamily that are rooting for you.
And you know other competitorsthat you may see like, oh, they
can't see me sweat, sort ofthing.
So we're constantly managingthose impressions.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And so they're like a perfect fit for each other.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yes, yes, yeah, it's like this.
Unfortunately, it can work likeit has a good thing, a good
match, but then it has thisshadow side.
We're going to use sort of thetherapeutic language here.
This shadow is that when itgets too much, there's too much
impression management happening,too much stress and isolation
(10:00):
happens Right, and that's whenstigma also occurs.
Is you have shame and isolation?
What's wrong with me?
Everyone else is fine, or Ishould be fine, and then we're
not talking about it.
That's when we get intodangerous territory and things
can go off rails.
We can start to struggle andmove into problematic feelings
(10:22):
and so let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
so, so I think you're leading me to where my next
question was going to go, whichis so, you know, when founders
find themselves in this position, where it's like it's all on me
, I have to really manage myimpression and how I come across
to everybody else, and thenthat pressure builds.
Until now it's actually justfar too much for the system to
(10:47):
cope with, right?
Then that starts to manifestfor them, as you were saying, in
certain feelings, thoughtpatterns, behaviors.
I'm curious for you when youstart to see the pressure
becoming, you know, overwhelming, and then the founders need to
(11:07):
find ways to cope in some way.
We might use the language ofdysfunctional coping patterns
I'll use that term lightly buthow do you see that start to
then play out in the folks thatyou work with?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, I like to use the word adaptive versus
maladaptive because I feel likethat's a compassionate way of
thinking.
Right, it's like we do a lot ofthings that are adaptive up to
a point, but then when it getsinto extremes, they become
maladaptive.
We were type A, we wereperforming, we studied, we were
disciplined, we wanted to be topin our class.
(11:46):
You know, there were a lot ofthese things that were like this
type of hyper focus, thiscapacity to handle stress.
It was an adaptive skill setuntil at some point we're in
even higher levels of stress andwe've only learned the skill of
pushing through.
We haven't learned how to restand recover.
(12:09):
We haven't learned how to beable to decompress or complete
the stress response cycle.
This is what I talk with myclients a lot about.
It's not that you don't havestressors, but you've got to
learn how to metabolize thatstress.
So when these kinds of when thestressors are outpacing our
(12:34):
capacity to work with them, sothat becomes when we develop
maladaptive techniques sometimes.
Yeah, so what happens is thatin order to cope with the stress
, say we like start to pushthrough, where you have to numb,
you have to disconnect fromyour fatigue, you have to like
sleep less.
(12:54):
You have to disconnectsometimes from relationships
like numbing yourself out, evenunconsciously, so that you can
just keep going.
So, there's things that we startto do, and distraction, numbing
, can, you know lead us toaddictive behaviors because
we're trying to avoid discomfortso that we can keep racing.
(13:14):
So what do you reach for?
Alcohol, or different types ofdrugs, different types of
technology addictions, shoppingaddictions, sex addictions.
These are all types of thingsthat I'll see in my practice,
where the person has started tobe unable to tolerate or feel or
(13:36):
cope with the currentdiscomfort of their situation,
and so the addictive behavior isa maladaptive way of numbing
and disconnecting and givingthem a sense of false relief.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah Right, and yet I would imagine that actually
just makes it worse, right,Especially if you're going to go
isolate from the people aroundyou, especially like important
relationships, where we werejust talking about how isolation
itself, like as humans we weall have this innate need for
connection, right To be in saferelationships.
(14:11):
I would imagine that if you'reactually distancing yourself
from these important others,then that actually just
compounds the issue for a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yes, and there is a for high performers.
There's a certain amount ofshame that I'm not keeping up,
like something's wrong with meand so we will.
I disconnect we from ourselves.
That leads to disconnectionwith others, and then there's
shame about the fact that that'shappening.
And one of the really importantpieces of my work is
(14:43):
normalizing.
That's why we're even havingthis conversation, you and I is
normalizing that.
This is a very difficult highstress environment and these
risks and this uncertainty ispervasive and it's going to take
its toll on anybody's mentalhealth.
And I try to help my clientssee.
(15:04):
You are not broken.
There is nothing wrong with youas a person.
You are full of intrinsic worthand value and really high level
of stress stacked onto otherhigh level stress is leading you
to a place to feel somethingreally hard is happening to you,
(15:27):
to your mind, to your body, andthis is going to happen to any
human.
This is a part of the humanexperience.
If we work at really highextremes and we haven't learned
how to pace, if we haven'tlearned how to reach for
connection, we don't haveanybody to talk to like a coach
or a therapist, then we willstart to find ourselves using
(15:49):
maladaptive skill, copingmechanisms in order to stay safe
, in order to survive.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Now, one of the things that this is making me
think about is, you know, I'veoften encountered a situation
where I might be having aconversation with a founder and
there it gets pretty clear forthem that, yeah, like I'm not in
good shape right, like thingsare not going well internally in
(16:17):
terms of their mental,emotional health and, uh, they
might recognize that they'reanxious, depressed, burned out
or a number of other things.
And yet, even with thatawareness, there's this sense
that, like, but they can't stopRight, like, it's like no, no,
no, if I, if I, if I stop whatI'm doing, that's all gonna go
(16:39):
away, it's all gonna.
It's all gonna crumble, it'sall going to crumble.
And I'm curious for you, like,have you encountered that as
well in your own work and, if so, how do you, as a clinician, as
a coach, tend to respond insituations like that?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, that is very common.
I see this in my work.
I see this in forums that I'mreading.
I'm just like this constantneed to just keep enhancing
productivity.
I need to just get better, Ineed to get stronger.
I you know if, if, if thestress is hurting me, I just
need to like be able to track iton my Apple watch or my whoop
(17:17):
band or you know, take the rightsupplements.
And it's interesting because Iget that.
That has been the strategy forpeople like us for a long time
is like just how to get evenbetter.
What I say to my clients isthat we are animal bodies at the
end of the day, though, eventhough we aspire to be machines,
(17:39):
we create the technology thatwe aspire to be is my philosophy
and yet, as humans, we arestill animal bodies and, at the
end of the day, when we learnthe science of rest and recovery
and we value that on par withproductive, energetic output,
then we are at our best humanperformance.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, sounds like you had another thought to add
there.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Hmm, yeah, sounds like you had another thought to
add there.
Well, and it's like thatreframe, I think, is so powerful
for my most I'd say highachieving clients.
It stumps them for a bit and wereally sit with that for a
moment and they get it.
That's kind of the.
It's like the reframing of howdo you want to be your most
(18:25):
excellent self, or in a gayHendricks gay Hendricks who
wrote the big leap?
If you're going to be in yourzone of genius, then you've got
to learn how to balance out restand recovery with those
superpowers.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Right, Right, yeah, yeah.
What occurs for me, that thatthat really resonates with my,
uh, my own experience, um, withmyself, you know personally,
with with others, Um, and youknow what, what?
What came up for me also waslike there, what I find that
there tends to be this reallylike um I could use the best
(19:02):
analogy or metaphor in the worldI could be like, you know what
you know, to not take care ofyourself or to not rest is
almost like an Olympic athletewho doesn't have an off season
or who doesn't spend time inrecovering because they know
that their body needs that andso, and yet what I found is, a
lot of times, people canconceptually get that, but on an
(19:25):
emotional level there's stilllike this, this resistance, this
like oh, no, no, no, there's noway I can actually consider
that.
And what I've found is at leastthis is my sense of it there's
one that there's like this fear.
It's like I don't know what'son the other side of that, Like
(19:45):
I'm afraid of what might happenif I were to change the way I'm
approaching things, if I were totake some time and rest, Um,
and so that's an element to, toaddress, to, to to be with and
really start to process whatthat fear is really about.
And then there's this other sideof it which, unfortunately, I
think a lot of people find is islike the only way they can get
(20:07):
there is they.
They almost have to hit likerock bottom.
Like they they have to likefeel the pain of burnout so
acutely, um, that they're likeokay, I never want to touch that
that again.
You know, it's like they havethis like visceral experience of
it, like okay, there's, it'sjust I can't do that to myself
(20:29):
again.
And that that's where, likethere's enough, um, you know,
push to change, um theirapproach to things.
Right, Um, I'm wondering if, ifyou found parallels in in in
your own work.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Absolutely.
That is what I see and I'm kindof the rock bottom person that
people come to when they are atthe rock bottom person that
people come to when they are atthe rock bottom.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
You should put that on your branding.
It's like on the rock bottomcoach.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
When they're at the rock bottom.
That's when they come knockingon my door, and so you're right
that often and they will even beable to identify if they would
have paid attention sooner, theyprobably could have avoided
getting to this place.
But rock bottom is like they'regoing through a divorce, they
have a huge health issue Now,they've lost a relationship with
(21:18):
other loved ones, they don'tlike the parent that they've
become.
Their team, their co founder isleft and you know, it's like
these really big instrumentalmoments and they often that's
when people because it is humannature, like you know don't fix
what's not broken, right?
We just kind of keep going,even if we know that it's taking
(21:40):
a toll.
And yet I do think that with thelike, the increase of awareness
around mental health, likethat's why it's so important to
me that we keep talking about itand talking about it and
telling these stories is thatmaybe people will kind of go oh,
they're talking about me, I'mat that cusp and I think if I
(22:00):
keep going I'm going to be atthat rock bottom.
And so my hope is that we'regoing to start to kind of get
into people's awareness a bitmore that they'll recognize I
don't want to be losing mymarriage before I take this step
, or I don't want to be losingmy health before this happens.
(22:22):
And it's great for so many ofthose founders that they
actually go back in and Inoticed once they've worked
through their rock bottom andthey're in recovery and they're
feeling better and they're likethey go and help and they're
mentoring and they're teachingother founders.
So I see this kind of beautifulfeedback loop that's happening
(22:43):
more and more, that burnt outfounders are mentoring and
creating solutions for those ofus that are, yeah, still in the
arena.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, um, it's that just, I think, underscores the
importance of sharing yourstories out in public.
All right, so so you know, it'sone thing to hear about these
things in the abstract, but whenyou have founders who are
publicly talking about thehealth issues that they start to
(23:15):
encounter or their marriagefalling apart or some other
really really challengingexperience, it makes it very
real and there's there's a wayfor founders who have gone
through that cycle to at thevery least use that story as a
way to help others avoid thesepretty avoidable errors.
(23:38):
Errors is a strong word, butavoid paths that I think pretty
reliably lead to these outcomes.
And there's something that yousaid a little while ago that
struck me.
You said something around likeoh, don't fix if it ain't broken
(23:59):
, right.
And what really struck me aboutthat was this idea that you
know, going back to the inertiathat founders often are
operating under, it's like I gotto keep going.
I got to keep going.
They're aware that it's liketaking a.
It's like I got to keep going,I got to keep going.
They're aware that it's liketaking a toll on them, but they
got to keep going.
And what really saddens me Ijust noticed I felt really sad
in hearing it or just touchingthis was there's like a
(24:22):
fundamental undervaluing of theself.
It's like I am willing tosacrifice my own wellbeing or
not even take it intoconsideration, um, so as to
advance the, the interests ofthe business, right, and and um,
it's, it's, it's so sadlycommon and and it makes me
(24:45):
wonder what what causes foundersoften to to be in that space
where they're just like you knowwhat, it doesn't matter if I
suffer, right?
Maybe it's clear to them whenit's like, oh my God, my
marriage is falling apart.
Or like, oh my God, I have thisserious health issue.
It's really in your face, butthere's just like this, it's
almost as if my self-sacrifice,it's not going to catch up to me
(25:08):
, right, it's sort of abstractbecause they're not really
taking the time to reallyconsider what's happening.
I'm wondering what you thinkmaybe drives that, that little
kind of head in the sand, or,going back to the devaluing
component, what do you thinkdrives that?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Mm-hmm, there can be different drivers, but the one
that comes to mind, as you'resaying it right now, is when we
have existing adaptive patternsthat were survival patterns
dependent on making sure thateverything else around us was
taken care of or OK.
Then we can bring our childhoodpatterns and experience our
(26:04):
early family dynamics into ourcurrent way in which we operate
as a founder and run ourbusinesses and as a family
systems therapist and coach.
This fascinates me and this ismy origin story as a founder.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Can you say more about that.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yes.
So I mentioned already that Iwas the golden child.
On top of that, I learned thatI could help decrease the stress
in my family the more highperforming I was, and that was
something that I kind of pickedup indirectly.
It wasn't always a explicitmessage, it was more implicit,
(26:45):
but I was.
I am an empath.
I'm very sensitive to thingsaround me, so when I noticed
like there was any distress inthe family, then I would get
easier to parent, I would be aneasier kid, I would perform
better, and as long as I wasperforming, then everything
(27:06):
seemed to get easier around me.
So I was taking care of my own,I was regulating myself by
being in that performer role andthen the system was good.
So if I work really hard, thesystem stays good, right?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, and which, as you know, is not your job as a
child.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
It's not your job At that point, at such a young age,
it's the parent's role to helpyou regulate, to connect with
you.
But in that instance you'resort of reversing it.
I got to take care of myparents or my family, right?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Because they can't do it themselves right now.
Yes, and so what we call that inpsychology is parentified kids.
What we call that in psychologyis parentified kids like a
parentified individual takes onthe responsibilities of a parent
.
That's developmentally too soon.
And in my family system therewas a significant loss and
trauma.
(28:00):
I unfortunately lost my brother, who passed away when he was 19
.
I was 16.
So my family system was alreadya little like.
I still was that child and I wasalways the easier kid and my
brother was the difficult childto parent.
But when he passed I even morestepped into.
(28:25):
I don't want my parents to feelany more discomfort.
So at 16, I took on what was a20, 30, 40 year olds role
without my parents asking me to,and so what that led me into
was doing that same for peoplearound me.
And so as I created a company,then I became instrumental and I
(28:49):
put all this responsibility onthe impression that I made on
others and decreasing my team'sdiscomfort, my client's
discomfort, and so there was allthese ways in which I built my
company on that early patternand you had to take all that on
for everybody else.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Exactly.
That was your superpower.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
You need to take all that on for everybody else
Exactly, that was yoursuperpower, that was my
superpower, and so I see that inmy clients and I name for them.
Like you are not alone.
It's very common forparentified kids that were the
oldest in the family or that hada trauma in their family, like
mine, to assume this role andthen to unconsciously play it
(29:28):
out inside of your organization,and then you feel even more
that you can't step away and youdon't consciously even know.
Oh, this is emotionallyuncomfortable for me because of
my childhood experience, and soit wasn't until I had like a
kind of a burnout situation inwhich I had to ask myself why am
(29:50):
I doing this to myself?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Right, right, yeah.
And let me ask you, Laura, likethat level of depth where you
helped them see that, wow,there's some family of origin
(30:14):
stuff here going on.
There's some really earlydevelopmental wounding occurring
.
That's now playing itself outin the way you're showing up as
a leader.
I'm wondering if you have caseswhere you got to that level of
awareness and then helped thatfounder not just recognize that
but move past that or movethrough that.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yes, I have, and it's a very satisfying experience
for both me and the clientbecause it's all of a sudden the
bringing out and this happensin a lot of coaching and therapy
, but I can, you know, bringingthe shadow into the light and
just all of a sudden makingthese things conscious in order
to shift how they show up andfeel about themselves in the
(30:58):
world.
But there's a special gift inseeing how it plays out for a
founder, because I can see themlighting up, like their light
bulbs happening.
Because sometimes when we'rejust looking at that dynamic
within our family we have somuch emotional connection to our
family we benefit.
But I don't think see it in thesame way as like when you apply
(31:20):
that to your team or yourorganization.
Like I just recently had aconversation where a client had
a breakthrough with a parentalfigure and was like and then I
said, do you see this parallelthat's playing out, so your
relationship to authority therein your childhood, and then how
is that playing out right now,with you showing up as a leader
(31:43):
and some of the challenges youand I've been working through?
And it was like you know, thislight bulb is like oh, I see it
in my team and how good it feelsfor them to have that insight.
It's like I've given them theplaybook, or something that they
didn't have before, where theyfeel re-energized to engage with
(32:05):
their team, more motivatedbecause now they have an
understanding.
Oh, this is why I've been stuckin this thing, or this is why I
haven't felt as effective as aleader, and it's not because
something's been wrong with me,but it's because there's been
some unconscious patterns that Ihaven't healed, that I've been
(32:27):
playing out in this groove thatI just no longer want to go down
anymore, and now I have thefreedom to choose another path.
Yeah, that's what's beautiful.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I love that.
Use that word freedom, right,it's upon recognition, it's upon
, like that clear seeing theawareness of oh, yeah, right,
there's this thing in me thatreally drives my behavior,
drives my experience here.
If I can see it clearly, right,see through it, then I can
choose something differently,right?
(32:59):
Previously, because it wascompletely if we want to use the
term shadow, it was in myshadow, it was not my awareness,
like previously, it just feltlike this is the way things are,
this is how I am, right, yes,right, like, of course, I'm
going to do this, right, this ismy default, this is my
personality, right.
And then it sounds like whatyou're saying is when they're
(33:19):
able to recognize oh, there's adamn good reason I show up in
this way, right, and it has itsroots from probably quite long
ago and I can really appreciatewhy I learned to do that.
And, as I can just be with that, now I can, as an adult, I can
decide hmm, is this really how Iwant to show up here, or might
(33:43):
I want to choose a differentpath?
Right, but until you actuallyunderstand that that's what's
happening, it's very hard tomake a different choice.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, it's a game changer for founders to bring
this consciousness into theirawareness.
And I don't think that manyfounders realize how much
programming is runningunderneath their conscious
awareness.
I mean a lot of people, don't?
A lot of people think, oh, I'm,I'm conscious of everything I'm
(34:11):
doing.
And as a coach yourself, and asa therapist, my like we see
that our job is to help name thethings that they can't see
about themselves.
And when those tools becomeavailable, when that
consciousness becomes available,I say to my clients it's like
you're no longer just goingthrough this darkness into a
(34:33):
cave, that you're just going inagain and in again and you're
like why am I here again?
You're going through a tunnel,so it gets dark.
There are times when we'redoing this work that people are
very concerned, like I don'tknow what's wrong, what's you
know?
Why am I doing this?
Or how will I ever, you know,break this pattern?
But the tunnel means that thereis a light and we keep working,
(34:57):
and we keep working, and we knowthat once we come out the other
side of that tunnel, not onlyis there light, but it's a whole
new landscape.
You enter that tunnel on oneside, but you're coming out into
a different state.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
And that's the work, and so I really try to help my
founders realize like it mayfeel uncomfortable and you may
feel like you're just going intothis dark hole.
Yeah, and you may feel likeyou're just going into this dark
hole, yeah, but with workingtogether like helping take them
through the tunnel and feel thefeelings and there's an
(35:33):
expression in somatic work thatthe issues are in the tissues.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
So we breathe, we work through our thoughts, we
work through our sensations andour behaviors, and then, when we
bring all that intoconsciousness, they have a new
path and they get to have thatchoice.
How am I going to be in mybusiness?
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
That that's that really resonates, laura, and I
love that analogy like kind ofcoming out the other side like
brand new landscape, right.
It's like a new way of seeing,and I'm a huge fan of the idea
of being able to work throughthat internal transformation.
And what came up for me as Iwas listening was how often it
(36:23):
is that founders will come intocoaching and the focus is on
like I want to hit thesebusiness milestones, these
achievements.
There's nothing wrong with that, right, but the attention is
really on the outer world.
What's going on out there,really on the outer world,
(36:47):
what's going on out there?
And any then hint or idea ofstarting to direct the attention
on the internal world?
Oh, can I examine myself?
Can I really start to explorethat?
That can be terrifying, andmaybe not even consciously so,
so much as just like, yeah, whywould I care about that?
What interest might I have inthat, right?
What's that going to producefor me?
That's not going to make memore productive, right.
And so it's interesting becauseI found that time and time again
(37:13):
, when anyone, but especially afounder, is able to step into a
type of work where, like youknow what, it is important for
me to deepen my own self-contactright To really understand
what's happening for me as ahuman, first and foremost, where
(37:34):
the most powerful shifts takeplace.
Right, rather than okay, cool,let me figure out how to be a
more effective delegator.
Nothing wrong with that, right,there's a time and place for
that, um, but but I think, asyou and I can both probably
agree, it's it's when you startto shine a light on the, the
internal experience, andunderstand, like, what is
(37:56):
driving me really right and andand then when you start to play
in that realm, then everythingelse externally there's just way
more freedom, right, like, yeah, we can talk, we can agree on,
like what you might want to do,specific steps, but but all that
stuff just becomes way lessdaunting when there's a this
(38:18):
kind of clear like I'll just goback to that term that that
clear self-contact.
I'm curious what you thinkabout that idea.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
I love a clear self-contact, because my advice
to you about how to hire betteror delegate or scale your
company is going to come from myself-contact.
It's not yours and so it'sprobably not the best thing for
you to do anyway in a way like Ican mentor you.
But when you step into thatself-contact you ask yourself
(38:48):
what's the resistance to hiringthe team that I really want and
need?
Then you get to the place whereyour own answers drop in.
You, at some level,unconsciously know why the
hiring practice isn't working.
I'm there to help you pull thatout, to illuminate that
(39:10):
unconsciousness so that you cango.
Oh, I have some self-doubtabout myself as a leader.
When I bring in people that aremore senior, I go into a fear
place.
So we examine that fear to yourpoint.
That is the foundationalinformation needed to be able to
drop into your own wisdom.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, and in my experience it takes a certain
level of courage to look atoneself in that way.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah, it's vulnerable .
It's a vulnerable experiencethat we're inviting people into.
And I love this whole theme ofyour podcast, Brian, because
you're asking people to show upin a very courageous way and to
share their stories, and that'swhat we ask of inside of our
client work, inside of ourselves, and it's a game changer of our
(40:06):
client work inside of ourselvesand it's a game changer.
It's everything that we need inorder, I think, to
self-actualize ourselves ashuman beings and become the
leader, founder person that weare feeling called to become.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I think we're getting towards a really, really good
way to close this out, so I havenot much to add to that, laura.
So just in the last few minutes, I want to ask you just from
your experience, just based offof the conversation that we've
had here what advice, practices,tools I know you've got some
(40:41):
tools to share as well, but whatactionable things might you
want to recommend to founderslistening to this conversation
when it comes to proactivelytaking care of their own mental
health as they're walking theirjourney of building their
businesses?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Yeah, great question.
I think that if they'relistening right now, and this
sparks a curiosity to considerwho might be a person to add to
your team as well, as far aslike, do you have a sounding
board?
Do you have a mentor?
Do you have a peer group?
Do you have a coach?
Do you have a therapist?
Knowing that you don't have towalk this alone, that this can
(41:20):
be, the tunnel can be reallylong and it's great to have a
companion to go through with you.
So, thinking about that.
And then obviously, there's theessentials around if you're
worried about your mental health, remembering that coming back
into connection, this clear selfcontact, means getting good
rest.
Setting boundaries withtechnology and your time,
(41:41):
clearing time off of yourcalendar to really sit with
oneself, to move your body orget into nature, like all of
these things that will kind ofhelp regulate your system, will
help you come into that contact.
And then there's multiplethings that you can do from
there to reach for help to dosome deeper dive breath work,
(42:02):
meditation, yoga, all thesethings.
I will say that during Maythere's Mental Health Awareness
Month, resources everywhere andincluding on my own website,
which lives actually throughoutthe year, is Tools for Founders
Project, and that's a projectthat I have been spearheading
and managing for the last threeyears, and there are podcasts,
(42:27):
articles and organizations suchas Palaia, which is a great
integrative coaching networkthat will match founders with
coaches.
So there's a lot out there forfounders and I'm sure we can
drop those into the show notes.
I'll be in the show notes.
Yep, yes To explore, explore,explore.
Yeah, but I would say, startwith exploring yourself and
(42:51):
asking for some help and someguidance and then, most likely,
things will start to show up inthe light.
Yeah, that will give you thenext step forward.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Awesome, yeah, that's a great closing note.
Thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed this.
It's been a pleasure Laura.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah, thank you so much for just raising awareness
and bringing attention to thistopic today and with all of your
conversations, the stories thatyou share with your podcast, so
I thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yeah, awesome Okay.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Take care, Laura.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Thank you, We'll talk soon.
Who's interested in leveling uptheir leadership by working
with a coach?
Then please feel free to reachout to me at
dashingleadershipcom.
Welcome to Slow Down, to Speed Up.
I'm your host, brian Wang, andtoday's the start of Mental
Health Awareness Month, so wehave a very special episode with
Laura Shook-Guzman.
Laura is a licensed marriageand family therapist, as well as
a leadership coach forentrepreneurs.
In our conversation, we talkabout the most common mental
health challenges that Laura andI both see in our founder
clients.
This is an incredibly importanttopic because, more often than
(00:22):
not, founders tend to sacrificetheir own well-being in service
of building their companies, notappreciating how it can lead to
serious long-term healtheffects as well as lower their
chances of success in the longrun.
We talk about the nature versusnurture aspects of founder
mental health challenges, theimportance of awareness of our
unconscious survival mechanisms,as well as ways that ambitious
(00:42):
achievers can better take careof themselves along the marathon
of building a startup.
Quick note if you're a founderwho is struggling with their
mental health, I highlyencourage you to seek help,
whether that's with the supportof a therapist, a coach, even a
trusted friend.
There's no shame in gettinghelp.
The fact of the matter is thatwe're all vulnerable humans who
can't go it alone, and there'sno reason for you to go it alone
(01:03):
either.
So I just want to make surethat you're taking care of
yourself throughout this journey.
Okay, let's get into theepisode.
Hope you enjoy.
Hey, laura, it's so great tosee you today.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So good to be here, Brian.
I'm excited about ourconversation.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yes, it is a special conversation For those who are
listening.
This is a pretty unique onewhere you and I are going to
have a chance to talk about somepretty salient topics having to
do with mental health and howmental health sort of presents
itself for founders and startup,entrepreneurs, leaders and
(01:38):
anyone of that.
Ilk and Laura, just tointroduce you to the audience
real quick, you have a reallyunique perspective on this whole
topic.
You're a psychotherapist,you're a coach, you've been
working with clients andfounders.
You've been working as atherapist now for over 20 years,
a coach with founders for over15 years, so you are just a
(02:00):
wealth of knowledge andexperience in this whole realm
and I'm really excited to justdive into this topic with you
today.
And I think, maybe just to kickoff the conversation with you,
given that we're talking about,like, how does mental health
show up for founders, maybe thefirst question I wanted to even
(02:21):
start with is what do you findin your work to be?
You know some of the mostcommon mental health challenges
in the founder population thatyou work with?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, good question, and it's my pleasure to be here.
Brian, thanks for highlightingmental health in this moment for
founders.
You know, it's when I thinkabout the different presenting
challenges that my clients comein.
They really fall into thesebuckets of like fear of failure,
isolation, feeling like they'reall alone and not understood by
(02:58):
people around them.
Also feeling really afraid ofdisappointing people or having
all this responsibility, likeliterally.
I've had clients say likethere's so much on my shoulders
that I sometimes just don't know, you know, what to do, I'm so
afraid that I'm going to botchit Right.
(03:20):
And so there's all this anxiety.
So I'd say like, from a clinicalperspective, from a therapeutic
space, it would be anxiety anddepression, insomnia,
helplessness, crying spells.
You know, I even have peoplekind of, you know, check the box
a little bit on their intake ofthese different experiences
(03:41):
that they're having.
And that's what I see over andover again.
You have these very successful,high performing leaders,
founders, but yet they'reticking those boxes depression,
anxiety, can't sleep, not eating, you know, regular meals,
struggling in my marriage or inmy relationship, struggling to
show up as a parent.
So that is what I am seeing alot for founders and I think the
(04:05):
thing that really struck me ishow everyone they're managing
the impressions they make oneveryone.
So you don't see that they seemgreat.
And then they would come in myoffice, where they had a safe,
confidential space, and open upto say this may look great from
the outside, but I am reallystruggling here.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I mean, that's its own special form of um of
torture, right, just like to goout into the world and and to um
put on a mask, essentially,right, and and and tell people,
hey, I'm fine or I'm doing greator I'm crushing it, um, uh, as
a way to shield the world fromwhat's actually happening
internally.
Right, that's its own form ofstress, and what I heard from
(04:47):
what you were sharing, laura, isthat, whether it's anxiety or
depression, imposter syndrome,burnout, like, so much of what's
underlying that or fueling it,is that isolation, this, this
sort of sense of like, oh, I'mall alone in handling like the
(05:11):
the bulk of the challenge, oreven if I have a team around me,
even if I have co-founders,it's that feeling like it's all
on me.
Um, is kind of the main thing Iheard from you and certainly
resonates with with my ownexperience um, personally, as
well as working, working withclients, um, I'm wondering, like
that feeling of being alone,being isolated, like, how much
(05:34):
of that do you sense is is thenature of the job, versus like a
sort of a self-inflicted umframing that that people put
upon themselves?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I think there's a little bit of that combination
and therapy, as we say.
The nature and the nurture isthere.
It's kind of like there's a bitof you know, the personality
types of those that go intoentrepreneurship are often high
performing individuals that havelearned to sort of have the
wear the mask well, to look likethey've got this, to feel like
(06:07):
they have responsibility, tolook as if they're fine.
They over function maybe, forother people in their life may
have done that when they'reyoung and now they do it now.
So there's sort of thisinternal pressure of I have to
be excellent and this is veryimportant, that I don't burden
anyone else, and so I'm justgoing to figure it out and I
(06:32):
have to do that.
That's just what I do, right?
Is this sort of the mental I'lljust jump in.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I want to let you keep going, but I just what came
up for me as I heard that was Ican also imagine how that
pattern really rewards people.
It rewards people as they'restarting companies right and get
(07:01):
all the accolades.
Then you can see how that mightlead them on a path to starting
companies and raising money andreally achieving, because
you've got that internal driverthat leads them into a position
of being the leader right.
We tend to promote and elevatepeople who are outworking
everyone else and, being veryachievement oriented, who are
(07:24):
outworking everyone else andbeing very achievement oriented,
yes, so it's like a moth to theflame in a way.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Like this is such a good fit for this personality
type to be able to findthemselves in these situations
and they thrive in it To acertain extent in the beginning.
There's also an increase of, ora higher capacity an increase
of, or a higher capacity.
So there has been research DrMichael Freeman, which anyone
that's looked into mental healthfor founders probably has
already heard of his name, he'sa psychiatrist that did research
, touch by fire, to look at whatis this personality?
(07:58):
Is it that founders have acertain amount of a personality
type that leads to having thesemental health issues, or is it
the entrepreneurship itself thatcreates?
the mental health right and thechicken or the egg or the nature
nurture.
And so it is really interesting.
Often we have a higher and Isay we because I'm identifying
(08:18):
right here, just like you, withmy own experience and with my
clients we have a high capacityfor stress and we have a high
capacity for tolerating risk,and so that serves us very well.
In the beginning, I myself am arecovering perfectionist, as
Brene Brown refers to.
I was the golden child in myfamily, so there was like this,
(08:40):
it's familiar and I ran with itand it was really easy to like
take that skill set intobecoming a founder running a
business.
And so, yes, there's like allof this ways in which there's a
personality there and the naturepiece of this or the nurture
I'm sorry, the environmentalpiece of it right, Is that?
(09:02):
well, this is kind of a part ofthe landscape.
The ecosystem is.
You have to manage theimpressions that you're making
on others.
When you are seeking investment, you want to look like a good
investment.
You want to look solid.
You don't want to, you know,appear that you could be
struggling with your mentalhealth.
You want to appear that strongwith all your key stakeholders,
(09:22):
which may be also friends andfamily that are rooting for you.
And you know other competitorsthat you may see like, oh, they
can't see me sweat, sort ofthing.
So we're constantly managingthose impressions.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And so they're like a perfect fit for each other.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yes, yes, yeah, it's like this.
Unfortunately, it can work likeit has a good thing, a good
match, but then it has thisshadow side.
We're going to use sort of thetherapeutic language here.
This shadow is that when itgets too much, there's too much
impression management happening,too much stress and isolation
(10:00):
happens Right, and that's whenstigma also occurs.
Is you have shame and isolation?
What's wrong with me?
Everyone else is fine, or Ishould be fine, and then we're
not talking about it.
That's when we get intodangerous territory and things
can go off rails.
We can start to struggle andmove into problematic feelings
(10:22):
and so let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
so, so I think you're leading me to where my next
question was going to go, whichis so, you know, when founders
find themselves in this position, where it's like it's all on me
, I have to really manage myimpression and how I come across
to everybody else, and thenthat pressure builds.
Until now it's actually justfar too much for the system to
(10:47):
cope with, right?
Then that starts to manifestfor them, as you were saying, in
certain feelings, thoughtpatterns, behaviors.
I'm curious for you when youstart to see the pressure
becoming, you know, overwhelming, and then the founders need to
(11:07):
find ways to cope in some way.
We might use the language ofdysfunctional coping patterns
I'll use that term lightly buthow do you see that start to
then play out in the folks thatyou work with?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, I like to use the word adaptive versus
maladaptive because I feel likethat's a compassionate way of
thinking.
Right, it's like we do a lot ofthings that are adaptive up to
a point, but then when it getsinto extremes, they become
maladaptive.
We were type A, we wereperforming, we studied, we were
disciplined, we wanted to be topin our class.
(11:46):
You know, there were a lot ofthese things that were like this
type of hyper focus, thiscapacity to handle stress.
It was an adaptive skill setuntil at some point we're in
even higher levels of stress andwe've only learned the skill of
pushing through.
We haven't learned how to restand recover.
(12:09):
We haven't learned how to beable to decompress or complete
the stress response cycle.
This is what I talk with myclients a lot about.
It's not that you don't havestressors, but you've got to
learn how to metabolize thatstress.
So when these kinds of when thestressors are outpacing our
(12:34):
capacity to work with them, sothat becomes when we develop
maladaptive techniques sometimes.
Yeah, so what happens is thatin order to cope with the stress
, say we like start to pushthrough, where you have to numb,
you have to disconnect fromyour fatigue, you have to like
sleep less.
(12:54):
You have to disconnectsometimes from relationships
like numbing yourself out, evenunconsciously, so that you can
just keep going.
So, there's things that we startto do, and distraction, numbing
, can, you know lead us toaddictive behaviors because
we're trying to avoid discomfortso that we can keep racing.
(13:14):
So what do you reach for?
Alcohol, or different types ofdrugs, different types of
technology addictions, shoppingaddictions, sex addictions.
These are all types of thingsthat I'll see in my practice,
where the person has started tobe unable to tolerate or feel or
(13:36):
cope with the currentdiscomfort of their situation,
and so the addictive behavior isa maladaptive way of numbing
and disconnecting and givingthem a sense of false relief.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah Right, and yet I would imagine that actually
just makes it worse, right,Especially if you're going to go
isolate from the people aroundyou, especially like important
relationships, where we werejust talking about how isolation
itself, like as humans we weall have this innate need for
connection, right To be in saferelationships.
(14:11):
I would imagine that if you'reactually distancing yourself
from these important others,then that actually just
compounds the issue for a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yes, and there is a for high performers.
There's a certain amount ofshame that I'm not keeping up,
like something's wrong with meand so we will.
I disconnect we from ourselves.
That leads to disconnectionwith others, and then there's
shame about the fact that that'shappening.
And one of the really importantpieces of my work is
(14:43):
normalizing.
That's why we're even havingthis conversation, you and I is
normalizing that.
This is a very difficult highstress environment and these
risks and this uncertainty ispervasive and it's going to take
its toll on anybody's mentalhealth.
And I try to help my clientssee.
(15:04):
You are not broken.
There is nothing wrong with youas a person.
You are full of intrinsic worthand value and really high level
of stress stacked onto otherhigh level stress is leading you
to a place to feel somethingreally hard is happening to you,
(15:27):
to your mind, to your body, andthis is going to happen to any
human.
This is a part of the humanexperience.
If we work at really highextremes and we haven't learned
how to pace, if we haven'tlearned how to reach for
connection, we don't haveanybody to talk to like a coach
or a therapist, then we willstart to find ourselves using
(15:49):
maladaptive skill, copingmechanisms in order to stay safe
, in order to survive.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Now, one of the things that this is making me
think about is, you know, I'veoften encountered a situation
where I might be having aconversation with a founder and
there it gets pretty clear forthem that, yeah, like I'm not in
good shape right, like thingsare not going well internally in
(16:17):
terms of their mental,emotional health and, uh, they
might recognize that they'reanxious, depressed, burned out
or a number of other things.
And yet, even with thatawareness, there's this sense
that, like, but they can't stopRight, like, it's like no, no,
no, if I, if I, if I stop whatI'm doing, that's all gonna go
(16:39):
away, it's all gonna.
It's all gonna crumble, it'sall going to crumble.
And I'm curious for you, like,have you encountered that as
well in your own work and, if so, how do you, as a clinician, as
a coach, tend to respond insituations like that?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, that is very common.
I see this in my work.
I see this in forums that I'mreading.
I'm just like this constantneed to just keep enhancing
productivity.
I need to just get better, Ineed to get stronger.
I you know if, if, if thestress is hurting me, I just
need to like be able to track iton my Apple watch or my whoop
(17:17):
band or you know, take the rightsupplements.
And it's interesting because Iget that.
That has been the strategy forpeople like us for a long time
is like just how to get evenbetter.
What I say to my clients isthat we are animal bodies at the
end of the day, though, eventhough we aspire to be machines,
(17:39):
we create the technology thatwe aspire to be is my philosophy
and yet, as humans, we arestill animal bodies and, at the
end of the day, when we learnthe science of rest and recovery
and we value that on par withproductive, energetic output,
then we are at our best humanperformance.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, sounds like you had another thought to add
there.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Hmm, yeah, sounds like you had another thought to
add there.
Well, and it's like thatreframe, I think, is so powerful
for my most I'd say highachieving clients.
It stumps them for a bit and wereally sit with that for a
moment and they get it.
That's kind of the.
It's like the reframing of howdo you want to be your most
(18:25):
excellent self, or in a gayHendricks gay Hendricks who
wrote the big leap?
If you're going to be in yourzone of genius, then you've got
to learn how to balance out restand recovery with those
superpowers.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Right, Right, yeah, yeah.
What occurs for me, that thatthat really resonates with my,
uh, my own experience, um, withmyself, you know personally,
with with others, Um, and youknow what, what?
What came up for me also waslike there, what I find that
there tends to be this reallylike um I could use the best
(19:02):
analogy or metaphor in the worldI could be like, you know what
you know, to not take care ofyourself or to not rest is
almost like an Olympic athletewho doesn't have an off season
or who doesn't spend time inrecovering because they know
that their body needs that andso, and yet what I found is, a
lot of times, people canconceptually get that, but on an
(19:25):
emotional level there's stilllike this, this resistance, this
like oh, no, no, no, there's noway I can actually consider
that.
And what I've found is at leastthis is my sense of it there's
one that there's like this fear.
It's like I don't know what'son the other side of that, Like
(19:45):
I'm afraid of what might happenif I were to change the way I'm
approaching things, if I were totake some time and rest, Um,
and so that's an element to, toaddress, to, to to be with and
really start to process whatthat fear is really about.
And then there's this other sideof it which, unfortunately, I
think a lot of people find is islike the only way they can get
(20:07):
there is they.
They almost have to hit likerock bottom.
Like they they have to likefeel the pain of burnout so
acutely, um, that they're likeokay, I never want to touch that
that again.
You know, it's like they havethis like visceral experience of
it, like okay, there's, it'sjust I can't do that to myself
(20:29):
again.
And that that's where, likethere's enough, um, you know,
push to change, um theirapproach to things.
Right, Um, I'm wondering if, ifyou found parallels in in in
your own work.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Absolutely.
That is what I see and I'm kindof the rock bottom person that
people come to when they are atthe rock bottom person that
people come to when they are atthe rock bottom.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
You should put that on your branding.
It's like on the rock bottomcoach.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
When they're at the rock bottom.
That's when they come knockingon my door, and so you're right
that often and they will even beable to identify if they would
have paid attention sooner, theyprobably could have avoided
getting to this place.
But rock bottom is like they'regoing through a divorce, they
have a huge health issue Now,they've lost a relationship with
(21:18):
other loved ones, they don'tlike the parent that they've
become.
Their team, their co founder isleft and you know, it's like
these really big instrumentalmoments and they often that's
when people because it is humannature, like you know don't fix
what's not broken, right?
We just kind of keep going,even if we know that it's taking
(21:40):
a toll.
And yet I do think that with thelike, the increase of awareness
around mental health, likethat's why it's so important to
me that we keep talking about itand talking about it and
telling these stories is thatmaybe people will kind of go oh,
they're talking about me, I'mat that cusp and I think if I
(22:00):
keep going I'm going to be atthat rock bottom.
And so my hope is that we'regoing to start to kind of get
into people's awareness a bitmore that they'll recognize I
don't want to be losing mymarriage before I take this step
, or I don't want to be losingmy health before this happens.
(22:22):
And it's great for so many ofthose founders that they
actually go back in and Inoticed once they've worked
through their rock bottom andthey're in recovery and they're
feeling better and they're likethey go and help and they're
mentoring and they're teachingother founders.
So I see this kind of beautifulfeedback loop that's happening
(22:43):
more and more, that burnt outfounders are mentoring and
creating solutions for those ofus that are, yeah, still in the
arena.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah, um, it's that just, I think, underscores the
importance of sharing yourstories out in public.
All right, so so you know, it'sone thing to hear about these
things in the abstract, but whenyou have founders who are
publicly talking about thehealth issues that they start to
(23:15):
encounter or their marriagefalling apart or some other
really really challengingexperience, it makes it very
real and there's there's a wayfor founders who have gone
through that cycle to at thevery least use that story as a
way to help others avoid thesepretty avoidable errors.
(23:38):
Errors is a strong word, butavoid paths that I think pretty
reliably lead to these outcomes.
And there's something that yousaid a little while ago that
struck me.
You said something around likeoh, don't fix if it ain't broken
(23:59):
, right.
And what really struck me aboutthat was this idea that you
know, going back to the inertiathat founders often are
operating under, it's like I gotto keep going.
I got to keep going.
They're aware that it's liketaking a.
It's like I got to keep going,I got to keep going.
They're aware that it's liketaking a toll on them, but they
got to keep going.
And what really saddens me Ijust noticed I felt really sad
in hearing it or just touchingthis was there's like a
(24:22):
fundamental undervaluing of theself.
It's like I am willing tosacrifice my own wellbeing or
not even take it intoconsideration, um, so as to
advance the, the interests ofthe business, right, and and um,
it's, it's, it's so sadlycommon and and it makes me
(24:45):
wonder what what causes foundersoften to to be in that space
where they're just like you knowwhat, it doesn't matter if I
suffer, right?
Maybe it's clear to them whenit's like, oh my God, my
marriage is falling apart.
Or like, oh my God, I have thisserious health issue.
It's really in your face, butthere's just like this, it's
almost as if my self-sacrifice,it's not going to catch up to me
(25:08):
, right, it's sort of abstractbecause they're not really
taking the time to reallyconsider what's happening.
I'm wondering what you thinkmaybe drives that, that little
kind of head in the sand, or,going back to the devaluing
component, what do you thinkdrives that?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Mm-hmm, there can be different drivers, but the one
that comes to mind, as you'resaying it right now, is when we
have existing adaptive patternsthat were survival patterns
dependent on making sure thateverything else around us was
taken care of or OK.
Then we can bring our childhoodpatterns and experience our
(26:04):
early family dynamics into ourcurrent way in which we operate
as a founder and run ourbusinesses and as a family
systems therapist and coach.
This fascinates me and this ismy origin story as a founder.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Can you say more about that.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yes.
So I mentioned already that Iwas the golden child.
On top of that, I learned thatI could help decrease the stress
in my family the more highperforming I was, and that was
something that I kind of pickedup indirectly.
It wasn't always a explicitmessage, it was more implicit,
(26:45):
but I was.
I am an empath.
I'm very sensitive to thingsaround me, so when I noticed
like there was any distress inthe family, then I would get
easier to parent, I would be aneasier kid, I would perform
better, and as long as I wasperforming, then everything
(27:06):
seemed to get easier around me.
So I was taking care of my own,I was regulating myself by
being in that performer role andthen the system was good.
So if I work really hard, thesystem stays good, right?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, and which, as you know, is not your job as a
child.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
It's not your job At that point, at such a young age,
it's the parent's role to helpyou regulate, to connect with
you.
But in that instance you'resort of reversing it.
I got to take care of myparents or my family, right?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Because they can't do it themselves right now.
Yes, and so what we call that inpsychology is parentified kids.
What we call that in psychologyis parentified kids like a
parentified individual takes onthe responsibilities of a parent
.
That's developmentally too soon.
And in my family system therewas a significant loss and
trauma.
(28:00):
I unfortunately lost my brother, who passed away when he was 19
.
I was 16.
So my family system was alreadya little like.
I still was that child and I wasalways the easier kid and my
brother was the difficult childto parent.
But when he passed I even morestepped into.
(28:25):
I don't want my parents to feelany more discomfort.
So at 16, I took on what was a20, 30, 40 year olds role
without my parents asking me to,and so what that led me into
was doing that same for peoplearound me.
And so as I created a company,then I became instrumental and I
(28:49):
put all this responsibility onthe impression that I made on
others and decreasing my team'sdiscomfort, my client's
discomfort, and so there was allthese ways in which I built my
company on that early patternand you had to take all that on
for everybody else.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Exactly.
That was your superpower.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
You need to take all that on for everybody else
Exactly, that was yoursuperpower, that was my
superpower, and so I see that inmy clients and I name for them.
Like you are not alone.
It's very common forparentified kids that were the
oldest in the family or that hada trauma in their family, like
mine, to assume this role andthen to unconsciously play it
(29:28):
out inside of your organization,and then you feel even more
that you can't step away and youdon't consciously even know.
Oh, this is emotionallyuncomfortable for me because of
my childhood experience, and soit wasn't until I had like a
kind of a burnout situation inwhich I had to ask myself why am
(29:50):
I doing this to myself?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Right, right, yeah.
And let me ask you, Laura, likethat level of depth where you
helped them see that, wow,there's some family of origin
(30:14):
stuff here going on.
There's some really earlydevelopmental wounding occurring
.
That's now playing itself outin the way you're showing up as
a leader.
I'm wondering if you have caseswhere you got to that level of
awareness and then helped thatfounder not just recognize that
but move past that or movethrough that.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yes, I have, and it's a very satisfying experience
for both me and the clientbecause it's all of a sudden the
bringing out and this happensin a lot of coaching and therapy
, but I can, you know, bringingthe shadow into the light and
just all of a sudden makingthese things conscious in order
to shift how they show up andfeel about themselves in the
(30:58):
world.
But there's a special gift inseeing how it plays out for a
founder, because I can see themlighting up, like their light
bulbs happening.
Because sometimes when we'rejust looking at that dynamic
within our family we have somuch emotional connection to our
family we benefit.
But I don't think see it in thesame way as like when you apply
(31:20):
that to your team or yourorganization.
Like I just recently had aconversation where a client had
a breakthrough with a parentalfigure and was like and then I
said, do you see this parallelthat's playing out, so your
relationship to authority therein your childhood, and then how
is that playing out right now,with you showing up as a leader
(31:43):
and some of the challenges youand I've been working through?
And it was like you know, thislight bulb is like oh, I see it
in my team and how good it feelsfor them to have that insight.
It's like I've given them theplaybook, or something that they
didn't have before, where theyfeel re-energized to engage with
(32:05):
their team, more motivatedbecause now they have an
understanding.
Oh, this is why I've been stuckin this thing, or this is why I
haven't felt as effective as aleader, and it's not because
something's been wrong with me,but it's because there's been
some unconscious patterns that Ihaven't healed, that I've been
(32:27):
playing out in this groove thatI just no longer want to go down
anymore, and now I have thefreedom to choose another path.
Yeah, that's what's beautiful.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I love that.
Use that word freedom, right,it's upon recognition, it's upon
, like that clear seeing theawareness of oh, yeah, right,
there's this thing in me thatreally drives my behavior,
drives my experience here.
If I can see it clearly, right,see through it, then I can
choose something differently,right?
(32:59):
Previously, because it wascompletely if we want to use the
term shadow, it was in myshadow, it was not my awareness,
like previously, it just feltlike this is the way things are,
this is how I am, right, yes,right, like, of course, I'm
going to do this, right, this ismy default, this is my
personality, right.
And then it sounds like whatyou're saying is when they're
(33:19):
able to recognize oh, there's adamn good reason I show up in
this way, right, and it has itsroots from probably quite long
ago and I can really appreciatewhy I learned to do that.
And, as I can just be with that, now I can, as an adult, I can
decide hmm, is this really how Iwant to show up here, or might
(33:43):
I want to choose a differentpath?
Right, but until you actuallyunderstand that that's what's
happening, it's very hard tomake a different choice.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, it's a game changer for founders to bring
this consciousness into theirawareness.
And I don't think that manyfounders realize how much
programming is runningunderneath their conscious
awareness.
I mean a lot of people, don't?
A lot of people think, oh, I'm,I'm conscious of everything I'm
(34:11):
doing.
And as a coach yourself, and asa therapist, my like we see
that our job is to help name thethings that they can't see
about themselves.
And when those tools becomeavailable, when that
consciousness becomes available,I say to my clients it's like
you're no longer just goingthrough this darkness into a
(34:33):
cave, that you're just going inagain and in again and you're
like why am I here again?
You're going through a tunnel,so it gets dark.
There are times when we'redoing this work that people are
very concerned, like I don'tknow what's wrong, what's you
know?
Why am I doing this?
Or how will I ever, you know,break this pattern?
But the tunnel means that thereis a light and we keep working,
(34:57):
and we keep working, and we knowthat once we come out the other
side of that tunnel, not onlyis there light, but it's a whole
new landscape.
You enter that tunnel on oneside, but you're coming out into
a different state.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
And that's the work, and so I really try to help my
founders realize like it mayfeel uncomfortable and you may
feel like you're just going intothis dark hole.
Yeah, and you may feel likeyou're just going into this dark
hole, yeah, but with workingtogether like helping take them
through the tunnel and feel thefeelings and there's an
(35:33):
expression in somatic work thatthe issues are in the tissues.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
So we breathe, we work through our thoughts, we
work through our sensations andour behaviors, and then, when we
bring all that intoconsciousness, they have a new
path and they get to have thatchoice.
How am I going to be in mybusiness?
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
That that's that really resonates, laura, and I
love that analogy like kind ofcoming out the other side like
brand new landscape, right.
It's like a new way of seeing,and I'm a huge fan of the idea
of being able to work throughthat internal transformation.
And what came up for me as Iwas listening was how often it
(36:23):
is that founders will come intocoaching and the focus is on
like I want to hit thesebusiness milestones, these
achievements.
There's nothing wrong with that, right, but the attention is
really on the outer world.
What's going on out there,really on the outer world,
(36:47):
what's going on out there?
And any then hint or idea ofstarting to direct the attention
on the internal world?
Oh, can I examine myself?
Can I really start to explorethat?
That can be terrifying, andmaybe not even consciously so,
so much as just like, yeah, whywould I care about that?
What interest might I have inthat, right?
What's that going to producefor me?
That's not going to make memore productive, right.
And so it's interesting becauseI found that time and time again
(37:13):
, when anyone, but especially afounder, is able to step into a
type of work where, like youknow what, it is important for
me to deepen my own self-contactright To really understand
what's happening for me as ahuman, first and foremost, where
(37:34):
the most powerful shifts takeplace.
Right, rather than okay, cool,let me figure out how to be a
more effective delegator.
Nothing wrong with that, right,there's a time and place for
that, um, but but I think, asyou and I can both probably
agree, it's it's when you startto shine a light on the, the
internal experience, andunderstand, like, what is
(37:56):
driving me really right and andand then when you start to play
in that realm, then everythingelse externally there's just way
more freedom, right, like, yeah, we can talk, we can agree on,
like what you might want to do,specific steps, but but all that
stuff just becomes way lessdaunting when there's a this
(38:18):
kind of clear like I'll just goback to that term that that
clear self-contact.
I'm curious what you thinkabout that idea.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
I love a clear self-contact, because my advice
to you about how to hire betteror delegate or scale your
company is going to come from myself-contact.
It's not yours and so it'sprobably not the best thing for
you to do anyway in a way like Ican mentor you.
But when you step into thatself-contact you ask yourself
(38:48):
what's the resistance to hiringthe team that I really want and
need?
Then you get to the place whereyour own answers drop in.
You, at some level,unconsciously know why the
hiring practice isn't working.
I'm there to help you pull thatout, to illuminate that
(39:10):
unconsciousness so that you cango.
Oh, I have some self-doubtabout myself as a leader.
When I bring in people that aremore senior, I go into a fear
place.
So we examine that fear to yourpoint.
That is the foundationalinformation needed to be able to
drop into your own wisdom.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, and in my experience it takes a certain
level of courage to look atoneself in that way.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah, it's vulnerable .
It's a vulnerable experiencethat we're inviting people into.
And I love this whole theme ofyour podcast, Brian, because
you're asking people to show upin a very courageous way and to
share their stories, and that'swhat we ask of inside of our
client work, inside of ourselves, and it's a game changer of our
(40:06):
client work inside of ourselvesand it's a game changer.
It's everything that we need inorder, I think, to
self-actualize ourselves ashuman beings and become the
leader, founder person that weare feeling called to become.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I think we're getting towards a really, really good
way to close this out, so I havenot much to add to that, laura.
So just in the last few minutes, I want to ask you just from
your experience, just based offof the conversation that we've
had here what advice, practices,tools I know you've got some
(40:41):
tools to share as well, but whatactionable things might you
want to recommend to founderslistening to this conversation
when it comes to proactivelytaking care of their own mental
health as they're walking theirjourney of building their
businesses?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Yeah, great question.
I think that if they'relistening right now, and this
sparks a curiosity to considerwho might be a person to add to
your team as well, as far aslike, do you have a sounding
board?
Do you have a mentor?
Do you have a peer group?
Do you have a coach?
Do you have a therapist?
Knowing that you don't have towalk this alone, that this can
(41:20):
be, the tunnel can be reallylong and it's great to have a
companion to go through with you.
So, thinking about that.
And then obviously, there's theessentials around if you're
worried about your mental health, remembering that coming back
into connection, this clear selfcontact, means getting good
rest.
Setting boundaries withtechnology and your time,
(41:41):
clearing time off of yourcalendar to really sit with
oneself, to move your body orget into nature, like all of
these things that will kind ofhelp regulate your system, will
help you come into that contact.
And then there's multiplethings that you can do from
there to reach for help to dosome deeper dive breath work,
(42:02):
meditation, yoga, all thesethings.
I will say that during Maythere's Mental Health Awareness
Month, resources everywhere andincluding on my own website,
which lives actually throughoutthe year, is Tools for Founders
Project, and that's a projectthat I have been spearheading
and managing for the last threeyears, and there are podcasts,
(42:27):
articles and organizations suchas Palaia, which is a great
integrative coaching networkthat will match founders with
coaches.
So there's a lot out there forfounders and I'm sure we can
drop those into the show notes.
I'll be in the show notes.
Yep, yes To explore, explore,explore.
Yeah, but I would say, startwith exploring yourself and
(42:51):
asking for some help and someguidance and then, most likely,
things will start to show up inthe light.
Yeah, that will give you thenext step forward.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Awesome, yeah, that's a great closing note.
Thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed this.
It's been a pleasure Laura.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah, thank you so much for just raising awareness
and bringing attention to thistopic today and with all of your
conversations, the stories thatyou share with your podcast, so
I thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yeah, awesome Okay.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Take care, Laura.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Thank you, We'll talk soon.
Who's interested in leveling uptheir leadership by working
with a coach?
Then please feel free to reachout to me at
dashingleadershipcom.
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