May 13, 2024 • 48 mins
Troy Sultan is the CEO of Guide and he's been leading startups for a decade. This far into the journey, he finds he's been losing motivation and he came for a session to figure out why. Is it a temporary blip or is there something deeper going on?
Confronting this question is no easy feat - no founder wants to admit that they feel disconnected from their company. But as the saying goes, the only way out is through. Together, we explore what happens how we can embrace doubt and uncertainty to our benefit.
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Troy's company Guide
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Slow Down, to Speed Up, where we have real
one-time coaching sessions withstartup founders who are
working through the challengesof leadership.
I'm your host and executivecoach, brian Wang.
Today in the show we have TroySalton, the CEO of Guide, a
recruiting software companythat's on a mission to help
people find work that they love.
Troy comes to the sessiontrying to figure out why he's
been lacking motivation recently.
Is it a case of burnout?
Does he need a break, or is hefacing something bigger, some
(00:23):
more significant changes in hislife and priorities?
This can be a reallyuncomfortable topic for founders
to touch, because we'resupposed to be all in our
companies.
That's what the world tells us.
We're supposed to be the chiefcheerleaders for our teams, so
any noticeable drop inmotivation can be scary because
it violates the narrative of whowe're supposed to be when we're
running these companies.
And this session takes sometwists and turns, but ultimately
(00:44):
Troy gets more clarity on whathe's been avoiding and why, as
well as some next steps on howto move things forward.
So let's tune in.
Hope you enjoy.
Hey, troy, great to see youLikewise.
Yeah, man, I'm really excitedto be on this session with you
and just to get us rolling.
I'd love for you to just take amoment to introduce yourself to
the audience a little bit aboutyour background, and then we'll
(01:06):
get into why we're here.
Great.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm Troy Salton.
I'm one of the co-founders andthe CEO of a software company
called Guide.
We make recruiting automationsoftware that helps streamline
the logistics and interviewscheduling process for
organizations like One MedicalGitLab, mongodb and others, and
(01:27):
it's my second startup in thesame recruiting software space
and perhaps that will be a topicthat threads through some of
our conversation today.
But yeah, I'm excited to chat?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, absolutely, and so you know we had spent a
little bit of time prior to thissession just getting some
context on where you're at, andso I have some context, but I
don't think the audience has anycontext.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about what we're working on
right now and where we're goingto go?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, so there's a sort of heavy, central and
lingering issue that's more of akind of life, life thoughts
that I'm noticing happening moreand more over time.
So I'm I'm certain we'll solveall of them in the next 40
minutes.
Or your money back.
Yeah, my money back.
So I think the crux of it forme though I will caveat that I'm
(02:25):
myself still trying to get myhandle on where I'm at, as my
own values personally and my ownidentity evolves over time and
(02:53):
I begin to prioritize new things, care about new things, and
maybe a excuse me kind ofcorollary here is that I'm also
(03:14):
unsure as I'm kind of in the mud, if you will whether I'm
dealing with just a black andwhite local case of a little bit
of burnout or boredom, orneeding some more wins, or some
of the normal things that Ithink some founders face on
their journey and I havecertainly in my past or there's
a more global shift happeningwhere I'm actually making
(03:36):
contact with a more permanentstate of change, and I think
that deciphering what's going onthere between those two things
are what are causing me a littlemore concern than I would
typically at 25, working a lotgoing.
(03:56):
You know what I need to go takea little vacation right now,
yeah, and I'm going to get someenergy.
Or I need to go get some winsand, oh, okay, I got out of that
.
I'm noticing the pattern again.
I'm not so sure.
Those tactics, to be fair, Ihaven't exhausted them fully,
but it doesn't strike me asobvious that those are the ways
out of this.
But maybe they are.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
It sounds like, even as you'restarting to explore it, it
occurs to you that maybe there'ssomething short-term that can
be addressed Resting, recharging, getting back in your feet,
getting some wins.
That might be all you need,because the other possibility
(04:39):
feels a little bit moreuncomfortable.
It's like, oh, what if there'sa more to use your term global
shift happening for you,something that's slightly more
permanent let's call it aspermanent as change can be but
something that's more of asignificant change happening for
you.
That, then, is causing thatlack of motivation you're
(05:00):
referring to.
And then what then Sounds likethat's maybe the more
uncomfortable prospect.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I think so, and there's a background narrative
that I think is fueling thatsecond piece a little bit, which
is that I've been in this spaceof recruiting software for a
long time, almost 10 years now,two companies and I love it.
(05:31):
I do unequivocally love it.
I love what I do.
I feel connected to the reasonswhy I went into this territory
twice and stayed here.
I wouldn't doubt a future,necessarily where I stay, but
what I wonder is I notice thesort of other path is hmm, there
(05:58):
are problems in the world andpassions that I notice in myself
, that I care about.
In addition to this thing, whereI was more myopically focused
five years ago, 10 years ago,this was the most important
problem was helping people findwork they love.
It was so transformative for me.
I felt I needed to expressmyself by enabling other people
to experience this, a life wherethey were equally passionate
(06:20):
and purpose filled about theirwork.
And now I believe that to beequally important.
I just see the world as a morecomplex place with many other
big problems that I might beequally or arguably and this is
the crux of it maybe moreinterested in if I were to go
spend five or 10 years of mylife.
So it's almost like the closeof a decade.
Yeah, I'm 35.
(06:42):
And I wonder what does the nextdecade look like?
Right and and the grass isgreener syndrome is something
that we always I mean many of usface.
I think, part of my conviction.
When I operate with conviction,which is kind of my mode, it
requires that I open mindedlyexplore alternative routes, even
(07:02):
though if, even if they soundterrifying.
I have to be truly open togetting off the exit ramp and
going another direction when,even many times, I don't.
I just need to truly let myselfexplore that and if I come back
and go, you know what.
I really gave that an earnestconsideration.
It's time to stay.
I need to, I'm now doubly surefor some period of time.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, because you've seen what's on the other side.
You've given yourself that yeah.
So how much have you allowedyourself to actually entertain
that exploration thus far?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
More than I would love to identify with as a
founder of a company who'shaving shower thoughts,
sometimes not about how do wesolve this complex problem that
we haven't yet solved inside ofthe company, but instead it
would be nice to go meditate inthe Himalayas for a couple
months, take a breather toidentify with.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
I had this sense.
Tell me, if this is right, thatthere's like a discomfort in
the idea of the, you know,driven founder, singularly
focused founder, who would thenentertain other thoughts like
that violates the narrative.
Is that a little bit of what'shappening?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, I say that a little bit in jest Because I
think I personally can recognizeand I'm comfortable with what
is, but five years ago oryounger me would have very much
felt bound to that narrative andarguably felt unsafe, maybe
even sharing something like that.
(08:38):
So, yeah, maybe there's stillsome discomfort, yeah, yeah, but
I'm almost, yeah, I'm honoringlike a yesteryear Troy who, who
probably would have felt lesssafe and would have had a system
around him who he didn't feelwould have been maybe not not
necessarily unaccepting, butwouldn't have been productive.
(08:59):
Yeah, put that in the air.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Well, I love how you're able to um both notice
what's real for you today andalso acknowledge what would have
been real for Troy five or tenyears ago, and holding both of
those in your mind at the sametime, because I think that can
be a tricky thing Real quick.
What is it that today enablesyou?
(09:22):
What enables that capacityright now, today, compared to
five years ago?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
You know I hadn't made this connection until you
asked that question.
One way to put it is I havebegun in the last five plus
years to let myself explore theinterests and sort of at least
marginal esoteria outside of mymyopically focused business and
(09:58):
business identity through ahandful of methods where I can
mention one of which isexecutive coaching, therapy,
meditation.
But because I've let myself tosome degree explore, it's really
refueled at certain inflectionpoints my own ability to lean in
(10:18):
and feel creative and bringingin new ideas from different
domains, and I think I've reallyfound that to be an amazing
virtuous cycle.
But yeah, I find myself nowmaybe wandering or wondering
whether I ought to be wanderingeven more widely from the home
base.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
As in like, there's a part of you that worries about
what would happen if you were toallow yourself to wander more,
more might my what might mywanders to date persuade me that
I ought to move permanently?
Elsewhere.
What would it be like for youif that?
(10:55):
If that were the case.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It's a very fuzzy picture and there's a lot of
insecurity, and I think becauseof that, on one hand, that
that's an amazing thing to goexplore and feel out.
On the other hand, I'mterrified, um cause I don't know
, and I like to have a clearvision for the future, for
myself.
And and I think I it's probablywhy I struggle with it, cause I
(11:24):
I really haven't built a clearpicture.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
So, like the fuzziness and the lack of
clarity itself is terrifying, orpart of the part of what makes
it scary.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, I think I I don't know what I would do.
I mean, I have some narrativethat I would.
If I let me just kind of speakin more specific terms, this is
the hypothetical, the extremehypothetical that I like to, I
noticed here and there over themonths, the last year or so.
I'll wander here and there andI'll I'll say, what if I wasn't
(11:58):
doing this company?
Yeah, and I wake up every dayand I put my all into it.
But what if I woke up and Ididn't have this company to put
my all into?
What if I just kind of, likeyou know, did right by all of
our stakeholders and somehowclosed this chapter for my life
personally?
And then what would I do?
And my initial instinct is likeI take a breather for a minute.
It's been a while.
I would like to just havenothing to do for a minute, but
(12:19):
I know that it would only be, itwouldn't be much more than a
couple minutes before I wasready to create something again.
And then the question is whatwould I create like?
How would I spend my time?
Where would I get my purpose?
And I think my natural founderinstinct is I thought I would do
(12:44):
another company.
Obviously.
I just don't know what I'd haveto like.
There's some territory that I'vethought about for years, but I
have to really kind of do athoughtful pass on.
You know what problem I thinkis a 10-year problem, yeah, but
I also like I'm at a point wherethat's not the scary part.
The scary part is like I'm at apoint where that's not the
(13:04):
scary part.
The scary part is like should Iactually like be family
planning?
Should I be focusing on?
Am I thinking about this fromthe wrong dimension?
Like, am I actually seekingsomething that has nothing to do
with the work piece?
Maybe, um?
Should I be looking for a moreserious partner?
Should I be planting myself ina geographical location that's
(13:26):
more permanent in my mind or orin in actuality?
Should I?
Should I go open a coffee shop?
Is this what I want to?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
do.
I want to check.
You know what I mean.
I want to check something outwith you, troy.
So what I noticed in the lastminute was a lot of like should
I do this, should I do that?
And I just want to make adistinction.
When you're should I do this,should I do that?
And I just want to make thedistinction.
When you're saying should I dothese things, is that, are you
phrasing it as like, huh, maybeI do want other things for
myself in my life, or is that?
(13:56):
Oh, some part of me is saying Ishould be at a certain place in
my life.
There's like a standard that Ifeel like I need to meet,
because those two things feelvery different.
So I want to pause here andcheck and see which of those is
kind of fueling the should here.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
It's hard for me to be sure there is 0% of the
latter like thisself-expectation, me not meeting
my own standard.
I don't suspect it's that,though I think it's mostly the
former.
It's really just to refine thequestion.
I think it's a question.
It's not knowing the answer towhat do I want, and I have spent
(14:37):
most all of my life knowingvery clearly what I want, with
never, with, with very fewmoments of questioning that just
.
You know.
If I could describe myself inthe last 15 years as somebody
who is operating with an immenseamount of conviction, yeah, and
a will, yeah, and a vision forhis life, yeah, and I think I'm
(15:00):
coming.
I don't know if it's an agething or I'm just having a
moment in the last handful ofmonths, but I'm wondering
whether I'm noticing some thingsin that steadfast foundation,
that vision crack, for example,you know, maybe my identity is a
little still tied to hey, Ithink I'm.
I want to be an entrepreneur.
This is what I love.
This is like what I wake up andlove.
(15:20):
But the definition ofentrepreneur that I had, like
yesteryear, and the one that Imight be forming today are
different, very different.
Yeah, you know, the last decadewas like unequivocally go.
Like, venture out, build amassive, like, build the biggest
, most impactful business asfast as possible, with as much
energy and sacrifice as thattakes.
(15:41):
Go, build the unicorn.
And then I think the 35,35-year-old Troy is wondering is
that really what's going tomake you happy?
Like certainly it's a coin flip.
I'm not deciding no, but forthe first time I'm wondering
what if I was building alifestyle business that fueled
these other things?
Or what if I have family?
And so it's interesting to seemyself genuinely considering
(16:03):
questions that just weren't apriority for me previously.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, just the fact that you're relating to these
things in a way that just byhabit you haven't, that in and
of itself can feel a littledestabilizing.
It's like, oh, I've neverreally shown up to my own life
in this way, whichever directionit goes, can be strange.
My own life in this way,whichever direction it goes, can
(16:30):
be strange.
And also, if so much of theday-to-day sense of self, that
motivation, that guiding NorthStar was rooted or fueled in
this narrative, like I'm theentrepreneur building a unicorn,
this is all that matters to me.
And then it's like but actuallymaybe, as you were saying,
there's like a crack in that.
It's like maybe it's not sostable, then that can feel scary
On top of the whole, like Idon't even know what I want.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah yeah, it's a place of exploration and it's
interesting.
I mean it's scary, it'sexciting.
It may be benign in the end,Like it can be so many things or
nothing that.
That's why it's just like a, afunky.
It's a funky place for me.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Can I ask you a question?
Yeah, so, troy, if I ask youthe question, troy, what do you
want right now?
What, what happens for you?
What do you notice?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Um, I hadn't thought to ask that question.
(17:46):
What comes up for me?
What came up for me immediately, is unrelated to this
illustrative, detailed optionset that I just described.
Oh, maybe I go off and do thisand take a break or build this
company or have a coffee shop.
(18:06):
I think what came up for meinstantly was I think what came
(18:34):
up for me instantly was.
I want to feel the same degreeof inspiration and creativity
and commitment and passion thatI've felt for the last 10 years
or 15 years of my career and Ithink lately the questioning has
distracted me In a way.
The very essence of thisinquiry is the fact that there's
room, for it means I'm not inflow in that sense and I want to
(18:56):
get back there.
And I'm like that sense and Iwant to get back there and I'm
like, oh, what, what's gonna getme there?
And again I I can't tell ifit's just a blip.
I've had these moments like inmy 10, 15 years of being
connected.
I recall in 2017, I recall veryspecific moments for three
months or so, I was kind of likewell, having an existential
crisis, and then I locked backin and two years went by and I
was as stoked as any whathappened with that existential
(19:16):
crisis, like how did that unfold?
I remember being at our, theyear was ending in 20 I believe
it was 2017 we were kind of wehad a lot of the tools that our
last company to like get, sortof uh, have the chapter we had
(19:37):
anticipated?
Uh, we were kind of at thestarting line with a great team
and good funding, good investorsand a kind of a vision.
But I remember the year wasclosing and I think I was
basically in retrospectexperiencing like a classic bout
of burnout.
Maybe I was just kind of myepically focused and maybe I was
.
I was burnt out for one reasonor another and I remember nobody
(19:58):
else in the company was wasseemingly in the same place.
They were all like stoked andmoving forward and I remember I
was literally at our conferencetable, in the middle of our like
kind of almost living room ofthe office, like where we would
all eat lunch, and I kind of Iremember almost banging on the
table, being like no, no, Idon't think you guys understand.
I think this is a problem, like, I know that everybody's
(20:22):
excited, but I am reallystruggling right now, yeah, and
I think that might be a problem.
So I need help, like I don'tknow what else to do.
But like, yeah, bang my fist onthe table and like, raise the
red flags.
I don't know what else to do.
But like, yeah, bang my fist onthe table and like, raise the
red flags.
Like I don't know what to dohere.
I think I'm struggling.
I think I'm not excited, Ithink something.
I don't believe something'sgoing on, and I got a lot of
(20:43):
compassion from the team and Iended up doing a couple of weeks
of travel at the end of theyear and by myself and abroad,
and I think a few other thingshad connected.
I had other things in my lifediscombobulated.
I think I don't know if it wasthe travel itself, because I've
it's not always been theantidote, but I came back and to
some degree in the next month Ijust I just got back locked in.
(21:05):
I don't remember the causalchain exactly, I just know I I
left, everything was good, good.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I got two full weeks of being off, which is was
incredible yeah, at that time,yeah, so yeah, yeah, sometimes
just even having like a certainamount of distance for some time
away can be restorative and andthe spark naturally comes back.
But something just came up.
I just saw something on yourface.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, yeah, you did.
You know, I just connected thiswith something else that I've
been wondering about lately,which is remote work.
Yeah, and this is going to be astrange thought, but one
thought that I wonder about.
You know, I think there's a lotto be said around what causes
burnout, what we mean when wesay that and I don't even know
(21:53):
what I mean when I say that butI do think I notice more energy
and motivation in myself when Ifeel like there is a vision for
the future, for my future,excuse me that I am extremely
excited about, and part B, supercritically, that I believe I
(22:14):
got to believe it.
It that's critical, and so thisbrings me to my my other point,
which is sometimes I wonderwhether, when I'm feeling like
I'm struggling, whether I justneed to be heard like I'm
(22:36):
struggling, whether I just needto be heard Like I wonder if I
just need some of my confidantsand my team and my peers to be
in maybe in person, I don't knowlike in a room on a couch,
having a moment where we're likeI need to get this out, yeah,
and I want to spend some timelike I want to jam on, like the
stuff that we don't often giveourselves permission to agenda
for a zoom meeting Like I.
(22:57):
Just want to riff on what'spossible for the next three
hours while we wander down likea hiking trail or something.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Kind of like in a.
That sounds like a situationwhere, like you don't know where
it's going to go.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yes, exactly, and we used to do a ton of this when we
had our office with our lastcompany.
We're a fully distributedcompany now and we actually love
it.
Yeah, we see a lot of upside,but I've been pondering more and
more lately whether my ownmental state correlates to the
lack of that visioning time.
I told my co-founder not toolong ago I was like it's funny,
(23:31):
because the vision is evolvingand and changing and getting
hardened as we learn.
The reality get hit withreality and that can't.
For me, that the believabilitypiece that I mentioned is really
top of mind, because I can gointo my silo across the country
from you and envision the nextiteration of whatever of the
(23:52):
future.
And unless me and you andarguably the core team name that
talk about it, align on it,commit to it, it's not real,
it's just a daydream for me.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
How much of that collective commitment and
alignment is present for youtoday.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
You're wondering to what degree might that be at
play right now and causing someof the stuff that we're talking
about?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
I'm curious about the potential connection.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Some For sure.
(24:55):
This was a recent conversationI had with my co-founder.
You ebb and flow as you companybuild, or my experience has
been an ebb and a flow fromextremely focused execution work
to, okay, big risk.
These are early stage business,big risk, isolated.
We need to figure out the nextbig risk and in order to figure
out what that next rightmilestone is, we kind of have to
work backwards from the biggerpicture.
We have to refine the biggerpicture and then reverse
engineer that back to the nextbest sort of waypoint.
And I think recently this is aninteresting connection this
(25:18):
might be at play we have spentthe last six months very focused
on what might arguably becalled a pivot, a major
evolution of our strategy thatwe hadn't planned at the time
that we started to execute, andso it's a big new product.
It's very.
We did the thinking about whyand then we committed and we've
(25:40):
been very heads down and I thinklately is when I'm starting to
feel the like.
None of us have been talkingour internal cultural
conversation.
It's been a lot about this hugelocal mountain we have to climb
, not about why, like what thisis going to enable for us
long-term, or where we're goingto be in three to five years,
how this changes our vision forthe future.
Are we still in agreement onthe one that we were talking
(26:00):
about six to 12 months ago?
The conversation's nothappening and I think maybe
that's at play.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, so okay.
So what do you think wouldhappen if you start to have some
more of those conversationsinternally?
It's like this like hey, whereis this actually bringing us
toward?
Is this where we're wanting toend up?
Going back to the why and howthat might even be evolving.
If you were to have some moreof those conversations on a
regular basis, or even just thenext several weeks, how do you
(26:27):
think that would impact thingsfor you?
I have little doubt that itwould have a positive impact on
me.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
You think that would impact things for you.
I have little doubt that itwould have a positive impact on
me.
Sure, and it may be theantidote to the primary struggle
I'm having.
Even so, I have a high amountof confidence.
It would be helpful.
However, yeah, excuse me, Istruggle with it for a few
(26:53):
reasons.
Number one ironically, it feelsselfish of me sometimes I feel
(27:17):
guilty forcing everyone, whoeverthat is to my co-founder and
others, to like humor me inthese moments where this is for
me in a way, I need this for meto get back on the horse.
But you all are like we're,we're good, we're, we're like
feeling rewarded, like we seeenough into the future that that
you know we can get our jobdone.
And, yeah, this all sounds likeinteresting and fun, but we
have a lot of shit to do.
Like we're under a lot ofpressure and like we don't in
(27:39):
this quarter if we don't deliver.
Like you know and it's, and Ifeel like you do.
You're right, you have atremendous amount of work on
your plate.
You feel the pressure.
There's a lot of execution workand, to your point, if we don't
win the quarter, we don't earnthe right to like.
Go see out this vision, maybe,and so I hear that.
So part of it is I don't want tolike disrupt other people to
solve for my problem.
(28:00):
But I do understand how solvingfor my problem might be a
selfless act as well.
I might be able to lead better.
And then the other piece isthis like very boring tactical?
What's the method?
What's the medium?
Do I put a Zoom meeting on thecalendar for four hours and give
everybody DoorDash?
This just feels boring.
Do we get in person?
Is this the time for a retreat?
I don't feel like planning that.
(28:21):
You know what I mean.
So there's that.
There's those two pieces.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Okay, totally.
And my sense is that latterquestion.
You could sort those things outlogistically with not much
effort involved.
But this first one seemsinteresting to me.
It's like what's present is, oh, I don't feel this motivation,
I don't feel that drive, thatenergy you were referencing
earlier, that flow.
(28:46):
I think I'll summarize it asthat feeling of flow that you
felt like that's what I'm reallywanting, and what I've picked
up so far is that feeling offlow that you, you, you felt
like that's what I'm reallywanting and what I've picked up
so far is that that feeling offlow seems connected to you, uh,
or for you, connected to, um,just the you being connected to
the bigger picture, you feelingconnected and convicted and
(29:08):
believing the why of what you'redoing.
You feeling connected andconvicted and believing the why
of what you're doing, and itseems, importantly, that there's
that felt sense thatcollectively not in a silo, but
collectively everyone is rowingin that same direction and their
hearts and minds are also withyou in that conviction.
Spot on, yeah conviction Spoton.
(29:35):
Yeah, and there's this littleblocker here, like oh, but oh my
God, it's going to be such aselfish thing for me to ask
folks to go through thisexercise of whatever that ends
up being.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, because it's one of those, or the story I
tell myself is it's one of those, or the story I tell myself is
it's one of those squishy CEOthings where, like nobody's
really needing I'm the tip ofthe spear, typically to look
around the corner at what's next.
Right, I'm the first person tosay I'm at the end of my line of
(30:09):
sight.
Where are we going to go next?
To say I'm at the end of myline of sight, where are we
going to go next?
It's typically going to be me,almost by definition, and so
maybe the team is right there,maybe sometimes they're the ones
raising their hand, but moreoften than not I'm most worried
about the longest term sort ofline of sight, and so in a lot
of ways, the team's not feelingwhat I feel yet Let me quickly
(30:43):
ask you how do you know that?
Maybe I should say the team isnot concerned or blocked by the
same thing that I might beconcerned or blocked about, um,
whereas my motivation personallymaybe this has nothing to do
with my role and it's just apersonality thing it's, it's
tied to those things youmentioned.
(31:04):
If I don't have like a five to10 year vision that I'm stoked
about, I struggle to staymotivated week to week.
I don't know that that'sexactly the same modus operandi
for everybody on my team.
So many will say look, we'rereally focused.
We feel great right now.
We're motivated.
It's hard but we see it working.
(31:25):
We really need to focus on thequarter.
We have very clear goals andit's going to be hard, but we
really believe in these still.
So maybe it's not that theywould disagree that they could.
They can't see 10 years intothe future.
I think they would argue thatlike that's like maybe
tomorrow's problem if it wereleft up to them.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, I follow you.
That makes a lot of sense to me, troy.
So so you've identified that,like the absence of that clear
five to 10 year vision plan theone that you really believe is a
significant factor here and so,as you were saying, this has
been evolving for you From whereyou're sitting right now,
(32:02):
what's stopping you from gettingclear on what that plan is?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
it's a really good question and I don't have a
clear answer because I don'tknow that I believe some of the
things that I'm inclined to say.
I don't know if I reallybelieve that it's a logistics
problem.
I can't figure out how to getus all in the room and this just
(32:43):
sounds exhausting.
And do we really have time foran offsite right now?
And yada, yada, right, I don'tknow if that's really the
problem.
I don't know how much I reallybelieve that I'm inclined to
react Like that's my instinctual.
That's a piece.
The other piece is well, thingsare changing.
I'm changing.
(33:05):
I'm changing back to where westarted the conversation, like
I'm changing some.
I mean, our vision is in place.
We're just talking about itless.
Maybe we have new languagearound it, maybe we just need to
stay more.
We need to behave on a week toweek basis with a little bit
more connection to that thing tokeep me believing and excited.
(33:26):
But I, I don't know.
I, I, maybe I'm just fallingunfamiliar or out of touch and I
need to just simply carve outtime for me to do the work for
(33:47):
me in figuring out what I need.
Maybe that's journaling, maybethat's going for a long walk and
really focusing on this.
I think I'm also maybe eitheravoiding or using that time.
I would never use that.
I don't have time for that,because I look at the way my
time is spent and it's on abunch of things that I don't
(34:08):
what specifically?
Speaker 1 (34:09):
what do you?
What do you find you'reavoiding?
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
uh, sorry, like doing the hard work to reconnect
myself with the vision, toreconsider that, to try to
harden it right.
A vision is a this amorphousthing that may mean different
things and I think as we buildmore, we can actually get more
detailed about what thatactually looks like and what
we've maybe learned.
Do we still believe this?
Maybe it's a little morerefined.
(34:33):
So I think there's always workto do in terms of that picture,
but for some reason I haven'tbeen inclined to sit down block
time and prioritize this big,squishy, imaginative thinking.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Well, you said that the vision was clear, though for
the business.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
It's clear as it as it needed to be in any given
point in time.
I think you know it's worth.
Maybe it's not worth the rabbithole, but it's worth just
noting that.
What is a vision?
I mean, is it a statementthat's written on a doc?
Is it a shared set of soundsthat we made together last year?
You know what are we talkingabout here, and for me that's
(35:15):
probably a combination of like acouple sentences that we have
written in a document, couplesentences that we have written
in a document, and then a like10 years of ideas that have like
the amalgamation of 10 years ofan ideas in my head throughout
conversations with many peoplearound me, including some I work
with now.
And is it worth like gettingthat on paper in a more detailed
way and in really picking apart?
(35:35):
Is it sitting in a conversationand really trying to figure out
where we agree, disagree, howclear of a picture can we paint?
And so I think there's work todo there always, even if we feel
satisfied in any way.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I think that's right.
There's always going to be somelevel of checking in with it,
revisiting it, iterating,refining.
You said that you guys are inthe middle of a pivot, so I
assume that that came aboutbecause of new information,
updates, revisions.
Pivot so I assume that thatcame about because of new
information, updates, revisions,et cetera, and I can't help.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
But yeah, in reality changing, yeah, go ahead,
markets changing, like a visionto me speaks to the future world
that could exist with ourimpact, and it's not a roadmap,
right, and so the order ofoperations, the strategy to't?
It's not, it's not the road,it's not a roadmap, right, and
(36:27):
so the, the order of operations,the strategy to get there, et
cetera.
That's all like ever changingand that's based on new
information.
So yeah, the, the vision,though may it may evolve to
based on that, but it should beprobably less.
It should be more evergreen,probably, than the strategy.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I would agree with that.
Yeah, I think that there's, tothe extent that vision can be
like much more high-level,directional, right, there's more
breathing room, wiggle room forkind of how you get there, and
strategy and the roadmap and soon.
But back to this thing aroundlike you know, what I've
(36:59):
received from you so far is asense of like, oh I, what I've
received from you so far is asense of like, oh I really want
to get that sense of flow again,drive, that motivation, and
earlier we were exploring thisquestion of like.
Oh well, I don't know what Iwant.
You know that you want thatdrive, but there's also this
kind of question what do Iactually want?
And so I wonder this questionmight not make any sense, but I
(37:27):
wonder, as you go, revisit thisquestion what is the vision
actually?
How am I going to want tochange and where is it going to
go?
To what extent bringing in thisfact that you don't yet know
what you want right now mightaid in the process?
(37:47):
Right, does that make sense?
Like the sense of like.
I'm going to bring my own notknowing into this whole
exploration.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
What's coming up for me is actually like the, the
inverse of your question, likewhat I'm wondering, and I, if I
understand it correctly, I thinkI'm wondering whether pursuing
clarity on this vision piece andreconnecting with it myself and
the team and just really kindof doing some work here, whether
that will actually tell mewhether this is what I want
(38:25):
still, or whether I wantsomething else.
So I'm wondering whether thelack of that vision at the
moment, or that clarity, thatzeal for it, is that what's
actually causing me to wanderoff and all these other
hypotheses.
And it's really just me towander off and all these other
hypotheses and it's really justhas nothing to do with all this
other shit.
Maybe I want to go do this andhave a family and start, but
(38:49):
that's all independent and notmutually exclusive of like being
really stoked at work.
And so for me, the historicaldata suggests that when I'm
connected to the vision, datasuggests that when I'm connected
to the vision, I don't I feelvery stable from a purpose
productivity standpoint.
So I wonder if I start thereand I do this work, that and I
(39:11):
land, and I still am scratchingmy head at the end like ah, we
did the work, but I'm just notfeeling that maybe that's where
I go.
Okay, interesting, maybe infact, I do want something else,
and this is a really healthyquestion to explore.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, if I'm hearing you right, troy, the
uncomfortable thing aboutexploring the vision of the
company and how it might want tochange is that you might find
that you actually don't wantthat for yourself.
And so then you find yourselfdistracting yourself by going
(39:50):
into these other rabbit holes.
What else do I want in my life?
All really important questions,but the fact that you might
come to discover at the end ofthat exploration with the
company that, no, this is notreally quite so aligned with me
is having you move away from it.
And then you're like wait, butwhy am I so unmotivated?
Because I haven't answered thequestion yet, or gotten to that
(40:13):
question yet.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah, I think that's resonant.
And back to the top of theconversation, and I back to the
(40:35):
top of the conversation.
I that what the process lookslike for me to reconnect and
re-solidify and gain newfoundconviction for the next chapter,
that this inflection point mustinclude a genuine
open-mindedness, that that isnot the landing spot.
It's a very strange thing forme.
I need to genuinely beopen-minded to explore, which
makes me seem, and in fact am inmoments, genuinely confused,
(40:57):
genuinely unsure.
I'm genuinely not sure if Iquote unquote want to do this
anymore and that's, that's gottabe true in order for me to
double click back in and belocked in because I knew that I
really gave myself an earnestopportunity to to explore
something else, and that couldbe very scary for people around
(41:19):
me because I can't be very easyto be misunderstood.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Yes, yeah, I think you got it.
I think you got it.
I can notice that you're justholding this really important
truth.
It's like to do this right.
There is the openness to thismystery of what are you going to
find.
If you go in feeling like I,have a preconceived notion of
(41:45):
how this is going to end up, youknow, it's very easy to find
out that you're like this islike you can be very misaligned,
right or I?
Speaker 2 (41:54):
manufactured some outcome.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, I didn't buy it .
Speaker 2 (41:57):
It's kind of like setting an artificial goal that
you know is artificial Works forsome people, doesn't for others
.
You kind of know you just madeup the line in the sand.
I think for me I'm the type ofperson that needs to really have
a lot of reasons behind it, andfor me my conviction and my
willingness to explore andwander are two sides of the same
(42:18):
coin.
I get my conviction from thewandering.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
You have to have gone through that process of the
wandering.
Yeah, exactly, and like yousaid, it could be scary for
others.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Absolutely, and I think as I grow and mature and I
learn more about myself and Inotice how I show up at various
junctures, the onus is on me tohelp other people around me that
depend on my mental state orare working in collaboration
(42:50):
with me.
It's it's on me to bring themalong the journey with me in a
way that they understand whatI'm going through right, so in a
way that they can still feelstable, they can still feel they
understand that the convictionthat they love about me when I'm
locked in comes as a result ofme having these moments where I
(43:13):
genuinely seem like I might bemore open to things that aren't
aligned with our say, company'sgoals in the moment, but that
actually helped me execute onour goals, come up with new ones
and have an immense amount offuel when I kind of come back
from this wandering.
That's our board, that's mypeers, that's our team, that's.
I mean it starts with meunderstanding that about myself
(43:33):
and I'm getting some claritythrough this conversation and
some language that helps mearticulate that dynamic.
But that is a a that could be.
It could add insult to injurywhen you're sort of confused and
you're letting, so you got togo through this wandering
process and yet also you havethe pressure of other people
maybe judging you or makingassumptions about what that
(43:57):
means for them.
Yeah, that you know you kind ofgot to remain open-minded to.
Yeah, technically I need tohold space for that possibility,
but I've also done this everytwo years for the last 15 years
and I almost always I mean everytime.
Thus far, I've come back withlike double the conviction as
before.
So you know, that's the onlydata set I have to work with you
.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Have a track record, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, my tendencies are my tendencies.
I don't know who I'll be nextyear but, I, can tell you who
I've tended to be.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Yeah, and part of that is that openness of
discovery, absolutely, yeah,awesome.
So as we wrap here, troy, likeI, I'm, I'm just noticing that
you're, you're, you're showingit just a little bit differently
from how we started.
I'm curious, then I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Let's go figure out this vision.
Awesome, what's?
Speaker 1 (44:45):
the insight that you want to really just underscore
here and how are you going tocarry it forward?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, what's become more salient to me in our
conversation is that the P0 forme, the, the, the.
The first order of business onthe journey to me feeling this
(45:10):
flow again is to do the vision,work with my team and myself to
figure out whether that is thelinchpin here, and it's not
(45:34):
really worth pondering all thisother stuff, because I really do
believe that's the firstquestion to answer so I can
focus there.
That will take some work, butit will also give me a lot of
clarity and I think it may bethe solution in and of itself
and, if not, it may point me andgive me permission to earnestly
explore these other questionsabout what do I want.
So I think I actually have morefocus in that I can put the
(45:55):
what do I want questions, whichare very squishy and open-ended,
aside, and I can focus on thenext step now and not feel as
paralyzed or overwhelmed by allthese possible futures and
instead say I have a planawesome, fantastic.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Yeah, I'm excited to hear, uh, the outcome here, like
as you, as you dive in and yougo into that unknown and explore
, like, what you come out of, uhof you walk out of the cave,
what you come out holding.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Maybe I'll be behind the counter making you a
cappuccino.
In not too much time from now,I'll be the first customer.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
Yeah, great, awesome, this is great.
I really appreciate it.
Fantastic.
Yeah, thanks for coming on,troy.
This was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, likewise Super helpful and productive and
enjoyable.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
I really appreciate it, Brian, Awesome.
If I were to sum up the sessionwith one question, it would be
this how much room for doubt isallowed for a founder?
In my view, Troy's struggle hada few different components.
First, Troy had lost someconnection with his company's
vision.
That alone can create a lot ofanxiety, because a good founder
a quote unquote is supposed tobe the keeper of the company's
vision.
Secondly, Troy was also alittle unsure of what he wanted
(47:04):
in his current phase of life,which added to his anxiety and
his discomfort.
And then, finally, he wasafraid that by going and
clarifying the company's vision,he might potentially discover
that he was no longer personallyaligned with it.
In other words, Troy wasresisting a lot of unknowns and
that's the most human thing inthe world to avoid those darker,
more shadowy parts of her life.
Toward the end, Troy saw thatthe way out was to drop his
(47:27):
resistance and to move towardthe unknown with a sense of
open-mindedness and even awillingness to be lost and
confused for a little while.
And when he gets to the otherside, he will sit with the
satisfaction knowing that hegave himself full permission to
go and explore all of hisoptions.
Thank you for listening.
To Slow Down, to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed this episode,please give it a like, a
subscribe or rate it in yourfavorite podcasting app.
(47:48):
And if you're a founder who'slooking to learn how coaching
can help them reach the nextlevel, please reach out to me at
dashingleadershipcom.
Welcome to Slow Down, to Speed Up, where we have real
one-time coaching sessions withstartup founders who are
working through the challengesof leadership.
I'm your host and executivecoach, brian Wang.
Today in the show we have TroySalton, the CEO of Guide, a
recruiting software companythat's on a mission to help
people find work that they love.
Troy comes to the sessiontrying to figure out why he's
been lacking motivation recently.
Is it a case of burnout?
Does he need a break, or is hefacing something bigger, some
(00:23):
more significant changes in hislife and priorities?
This can be a reallyuncomfortable topic for founders
to touch, because we'resupposed to be all in our
companies.
That's what the world tells us.
We're supposed to be the chiefcheerleaders for our teams, so
any noticeable drop inmotivation can be scary because
it violates the narrative of whowe're supposed to be when we're
running these companies.
And this session takes sometwists and turns, but ultimately
(00:44):
Troy gets more clarity on whathe's been avoiding and why, as
well as some next steps on howto move things forward.
So let's tune in.
Hope you enjoy.
Hey, troy, great to see youLikewise.
Yeah, man, I'm really excitedto be on this session with you
and just to get us rolling.
I'd love for you to just take amoment to introduce yourself to
the audience a little bit aboutyour background, and then we'll
(01:06):
get into why we're here.
Great.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm Troy Salton.
I'm one of the co-founders andthe CEO of a software company
called Guide.
We make recruiting automationsoftware that helps streamline
the logistics and interviewscheduling process for
organizations like One MedicalGitLab, mongodb and others, and
(01:27):
it's my second startup in thesame recruiting software space
and perhaps that will be a topicthat threads through some of
our conversation today.
But yeah, I'm excited to chat?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, absolutely, and so you know we had spent a
little bit of time prior to thissession just getting some
context on where you're at, andso I have some context, but I
don't think the audience has anycontext.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about what we're working on
right now and where we're goingto go?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, so there's a sort of heavy, central and
lingering issue that's more of akind of life, life thoughts
that I'm noticing happening moreand more over time.
So I'm I'm certain we'll solveall of them in the next 40
minutes.
Or your money back.
Yeah, my money back.
So I think the crux of it forme though I will caveat that I'm
(02:25):
myself still trying to get myhandle on where I'm at, as my
own values personally and my ownidentity evolves over time and
(02:53):
I begin to prioritize new things, care about new things, and
maybe a excuse me kind ofcorollary here is that I'm also
(03:14):
unsure as I'm kind of in the mud, if you will whether I'm
dealing with just a black andwhite local case of a little bit
of burnout or boredom, orneeding some more wins, or some
of the normal things that Ithink some founders face on
their journey and I havecertainly in my past or there's
a more global shift happeningwhere I'm actually making
(03:36):
contact with a more permanentstate of change, and I think
that deciphering what's going onthere between those two things
are what are causing me a littlemore concern than I would
typically at 25, working a lotgoing.
(03:56):
You know what I need to go takea little vacation right now,
yeah, and I'm going to get someenergy.
Or I need to go get some winsand, oh, okay, I got out of that
.
I'm noticing the pattern again.
I'm not so sure.
Those tactics, to be fair, Ihaven't exhausted them fully,
but it doesn't strike me asobvious that those are the ways
out of this.
But maybe they are.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
It sounds like, even as you'restarting to explore it, it
occurs to you that maybe there'ssomething short-term that can
be addressed Resting, recharging, getting back in your feet,
getting some wins.
That might be all you need,because the other possibility
(04:39):
feels a little bit moreuncomfortable.
It's like, oh, what if there'sa more to use your term global
shift happening for you,something that's slightly more
permanent let's call it aspermanent as change can be but
something that's more of asignificant change happening for
you.
That, then, is causing thatlack of motivation you're
(05:00):
referring to.
And then what then Sounds likethat's maybe the more
uncomfortable prospect.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I think so, and there's a background narrative
that I think is fueling thatsecond piece a little bit, which
is that I've been in this spaceof recruiting software for a
long time, almost 10 years now,two companies and I love it.
(05:31):
I do unequivocally love it.
I love what I do.
I feel connected to the reasonswhy I went into this territory
twice and stayed here.
I wouldn't doubt a future,necessarily where I stay, but
what I wonder is I notice thesort of other path is hmm, there
(05:58):
are problems in the world andpassions that I notice in myself
, that I care about.
In addition to this thing, whereI was more myopically focused
five years ago, 10 years ago,this was the most important
problem was helping people findwork they love.
It was so transformative for me.
I felt I needed to expressmyself by enabling other people
to experience this, a life wherethey were equally passionate
(06:20):
and purpose filled about theirwork.
And now I believe that to beequally important.
I just see the world as a morecomplex place with many other
big problems that I might beequally or arguably and this is
the crux of it maybe moreinterested in if I were to go
spend five or 10 years of mylife.
So it's almost like the closeof a decade.
Yeah, I'm 35.
(06:42):
And I wonder what does the nextdecade look like?
Right and and the grass isgreener syndrome is something
that we always I mean many of usface.
I think, part of my conviction.
When I operate with conviction,which is kind of my mode, it
requires that I open mindedlyexplore alternative routes, even
(07:02):
though if, even if they soundterrifying.
I have to be truly open togetting off the exit ramp and
going another direction when,even many times, I don't.
I just need to truly let myselfexplore that and if I come back
and go, you know what.
I really gave that an earnestconsideration.
It's time to stay.
I need to, I'm now doubly surefor some period of time.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, because you've seen what's on the other side.
You've given yourself that yeah.
So how much have you allowedyourself to actually entertain
that exploration thus far?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
More than I would love to identify with as a
founder of a company who'shaving shower thoughts,
sometimes not about how do wesolve this complex problem that
we haven't yet solved inside ofthe company, but instead it
would be nice to go meditate inthe Himalayas for a couple
months, take a breather toidentify with.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
I had this sense.
Tell me, if this is right, thatthere's like a discomfort in
the idea of the, you know,driven founder, singularly
focused founder, who would thenentertain other thoughts like
that violates the narrative.
Is that a little bit of what'shappening?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, I say that a little bit in jest Because I
think I personally can recognizeand I'm comfortable with what
is, but five years ago oryounger me would have very much
felt bound to that narrative andarguably felt unsafe, maybe
even sharing something like that.
(08:38):
So, yeah, maybe there's stillsome discomfort, yeah, yeah, but
I'm almost, yeah, I'm honoringlike a yesteryear Troy who, who
probably would have felt lesssafe and would have had a system
around him who he didn't feelwould have been maybe not not
necessarily unaccepting, butwouldn't have been productive.
(08:59):
Yeah, put that in the air.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Well, I love how you're able to um both notice
what's real for you today andalso acknowledge what would have
been real for Troy five or tenyears ago, and holding both of
those in your mind at the sametime, because I think that can
be a tricky thing Real quick.
What is it that today enablesyou?
(09:22):
What enables that capacityright now, today, compared to
five years ago?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
You know I hadn't made this connection until you
asked that question.
One way to put it is I havebegun in the last five plus
years to let myself explore theinterests and sort of at least
marginal esoteria outside of mymyopically focused business and
(09:58):
business identity through ahandful of methods where I can
mention one of which isexecutive coaching, therapy,
meditation.
But because I've let myself tosome degree explore, it's really
refueled at certain inflectionpoints my own ability to lean in
(10:18):
and feel creative and bringingin new ideas from different
domains, and I think I've reallyfound that to be an amazing
virtuous cycle.
But yeah, I find myself nowmaybe wandering or wondering
whether I ought to be wanderingeven more widely from the home
base.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
As in like, there's a part of you that worries about
what would happen if you were toallow yourself to wander more,
more might my what might mywanders to date persuade me that
I ought to move permanently?
Elsewhere.
What would it be like for youif that?
(10:55):
If that were the case.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It's a very fuzzy picture and there's a lot of
insecurity, and I think becauseof that, on one hand, that
that's an amazing thing to goexplore and feel out.
On the other hand, I'mterrified, um cause I don't know
, and I like to have a clearvision for the future, for
myself.
And and I think I it's probablywhy I struggle with it, cause I
(11:24):
I really haven't built a clearpicture.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
So, like the fuzziness and the lack of
clarity itself is terrifying, orpart of the part of what makes
it scary.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, I think I I don't know what I would do.
I mean, I have some narrativethat I would.
If I let me just kind of speakin more specific terms, this is
the hypothetical, the extremehypothetical that I like to, I
noticed here and there over themonths, the last year or so.
I'll wander here and there andI'll I'll say, what if I wasn't
(11:58):
doing this company?
Yeah, and I wake up every dayand I put my all into it.
But what if I woke up and Ididn't have this company to put
my all into?
What if I just kind of, likeyou know, did right by all of
our stakeholders and somehowclosed this chapter for my life
personally?
And then what would I do?
And my initial instinct is likeI take a breather for a minute.
It's been a while.
I would like to just havenothing to do for a minute, but
(12:19):
I know that it would only be, itwouldn't be much more than a
couple minutes before I wasready to create something again.
And then the question is whatwould I create like?
How would I spend my time?
Where would I get my purpose?
And I think my natural founderinstinct is I thought I would do
(12:44):
another company.
Obviously.
I just don't know what I'd haveto like.
There's some territory that I'vethought about for years, but I
have to really kind of do athoughtful pass on.
You know what problem I thinkis a 10-year problem, yeah, but
I also like I'm at a point wherethat's not the scary part.
The scary part is like I'm at apoint where that's not the
(13:04):
scary part.
The scary part is like should Iactually like be family
planning?
Should I be focusing on?
Am I thinking about this fromthe wrong dimension?
Like, am I actually seekingsomething that has nothing to do
with the work piece?
Maybe, um?
Should I be looking for a moreserious partner?
Should I be planting myself ina geographical location that's
(13:26):
more permanent in my mind or orin in actuality?
Should I?
Should I go open a coffee shop?
Is this what I want to?
Speaker 1 (13:35):
do.
I want to check.
You know what I mean.
I want to check something outwith you, troy.
So what I noticed in the lastminute was a lot of like should
I do this, should I do that?
And I just want to make adistinction.
When you're should I do this,should I do that?
And I just want to make thedistinction.
When you're saying should I dothese things, is that, are you
phrasing it as like, huh, maybeI do want other things for
myself in my life, or is that?
(13:56):
Oh, some part of me is saying Ishould be at a certain place in
my life.
There's like a standard that Ifeel like I need to meet,
because those two things feelvery different.
So I want to pause here andcheck and see which of those is
kind of fueling the should here.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
It's hard for me to be sure there is 0% of the
latter like thisself-expectation, me not meeting
my own standard.
I don't suspect it's that,though I think it's mostly the
former.
It's really just to refine thequestion.
I think it's a question.
It's not knowing the answer towhat do I want, and I have spent
(14:37):
most all of my life knowingvery clearly what I want, with
never, with, with very fewmoments of questioning that just
.
You know.
If I could describe myself inthe last 15 years as somebody
who is operating with an immenseamount of conviction, yeah, and
a will, yeah, and a vision forhis life, yeah, and I think I'm
(15:00):
coming.
I don't know if it's an agething or I'm just having a
moment in the last handful ofmonths, but I'm wondering
whether I'm noticing some thingsin that steadfast foundation,
that vision crack, for example,you know, maybe my identity is a
little still tied to hey, Ithink I'm.
I want to be an entrepreneur.
This is what I love.
This is like what I wake up andlove.
(15:20):
But the definition ofentrepreneur that I had, like
yesteryear, and the one that Imight be forming today are
different, very different.
Yeah, you know, the last decadewas like unequivocally go.
Like, venture out, build amassive, like, build the biggest
, most impactful business asfast as possible, with as much
energy and sacrifice as thattakes.
(15:41):
Go, build the unicorn.
And then I think the 35,35-year-old Troy is wondering is
that really what's going tomake you happy?
Like certainly it's a coin flip.
I'm not deciding no, but forthe first time I'm wondering
what if I was building alifestyle business that fueled
these other things?
Or what if I have family?
And so it's interesting to seemyself genuinely considering
(16:03):
questions that just weren't apriority for me previously.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, just the fact that you're relating to these
things in a way that just byhabit you haven't, that in and
of itself can feel a littledestabilizing.
It's like, oh, I've neverreally shown up to my own life
in this way, whichever directionit goes, can be strange.
My own life in this way,whichever direction it goes, can
(16:30):
be strange.
And also, if so much of theday-to-day sense of self, that
motivation, that guiding NorthStar was rooted or fueled in
this narrative, like I'm theentrepreneur building a unicorn,
this is all that matters to me.
And then it's like but actuallymaybe, as you were saying,
there's like a crack in that.
It's like maybe it's not sostable, then that can feel scary
On top of the whole, like Idon't even know what I want.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah yeah, it's a place of exploration and it's
interesting.
I mean it's scary, it'sexciting.
It may be benign in the end,Like it can be so many things or
nothing that.
That's why it's just like a, afunky.
It's a funky place for me.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Can I ask you a question?
Yeah, so, troy, if I ask youthe question, troy, what do you
want right now?
What, what happens for you?
What do you notice?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Um, I hadn't thought to ask that question.
(17:46):
What comes up for me?
What came up for me immediately, is unrelated to this
illustrative, detailed optionset that I just described.
Oh, maybe I go off and do thisand take a break or build this
company or have a coffee shop.
(18:06):
I think what came up for meinstantly was I think what came
(18:34):
up for me instantly was.
I want to feel the same degreeof inspiration and creativity
and commitment and passion thatI've felt for the last 10 years
or 15 years of my career and Ithink lately the questioning has
distracted me In a way.
The very essence of thisinquiry is the fact that there's
room, for it means I'm not inflow in that sense and I want to
(18:56):
get back there.
And I'm like that sense and Iwant to get back there and I'm
like, oh, what, what's gonna getme there?
And again I I can't tell ifit's just a blip.
I've had these moments like inmy 10, 15 years of being
connected.
I recall in 2017, I recall veryspecific moments for three
months or so, I was kind of likewell, having an existential
crisis, and then I locked backin and two years went by and I
was as stoked as any whathappened with that existential
(19:16):
crisis, like how did that unfold?
I remember being at our, theyear was ending in 20 I believe
it was 2017 we were kind of wehad a lot of the tools that our
last company to like get, sortof uh, have the chapter we had
(19:37):
anticipated?
Uh, we were kind of at thestarting line with a great team
and good funding, good investorsand a kind of a vision.
But I remember the year wasclosing and I think I was
basically in retrospectexperiencing like a classic bout
of burnout.
Maybe I was just kind of myepically focused and maybe I was
.
I was burnt out for one reasonor another and I remember nobody
(19:58):
else in the company was wasseemingly in the same place.
They were all like stoked andmoving forward and I remember I
was literally at our conferencetable, in the middle of our like
kind of almost living room ofthe office, like where we would
all eat lunch, and I kind of Iremember almost banging on the
table, being like no, no, Idon't think you guys understand.
I think this is a problem, like, I know that everybody's
(20:22):
excited, but I am reallystruggling right now, yeah, and
I think that might be a problem.
So I need help, like I don'tknow what else to do.
But like, yeah, bang my fist onthe table and like, raise the
red flags.
I don't know what else to do.
But like, yeah, bang my fist onthe table and like, raise the
red flags.
Like I don't know what to dohere.
I think I'm struggling.
I think I'm not excited, Ithink something.
I don't believe something'sgoing on, and I got a lot of
(20:43):
compassion from the team and Iended up doing a couple of weeks
of travel at the end of theyear and by myself and abroad,
and I think a few other thingshad connected.
I had other things in my lifediscombobulated.
I think I don't know if it wasthe travel itself, because I've
it's not always been theantidote, but I came back and to
some degree in the next month Ijust I just got back locked in.
(21:05):
I don't remember the causalchain exactly, I just know I I
left, everything was good, good.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I got two full weeks of being off, which is was
incredible yeah, at that time,yeah, so yeah, yeah, sometimes
just even having like a certainamount of distance for some time
away can be restorative and andthe spark naturally comes back.
But something just came up.
I just saw something on yourface.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, yeah, you did.
You know, I just connected thiswith something else that I've
been wondering about lately,which is remote work.
Yeah, and this is going to be astrange thought, but one
thought that I wonder about.
You know, I think there's a lotto be said around what causes
burnout, what we mean when wesay that and I don't even know
(21:53):
what I mean when I say that butI do think I notice more energy
and motivation in myself when Ifeel like there is a vision for
the future, for my future,excuse me that I am extremely
excited about, and part B, supercritically, that I believe I
(22:14):
got to believe it.
It that's critical, and so thisbrings me to my my other point,
which is sometimes I wonderwhether, when I'm feeling like
I'm struggling, whether I justneed to be heard like I'm
(22:36):
struggling, whether I just needto be heard Like I wonder if I
just need some of my confidantsand my team and my peers to be
in maybe in person, I don't knowlike in a room on a couch,
having a moment where we're likeI need to get this out, yeah,
and I want to spend some timelike I want to jam on, like the
stuff that we don't often giveourselves permission to agenda
for a zoom meeting Like I.
(22:57):
Just want to riff on what'spossible for the next three
hours while we wander down likea hiking trail or something.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Kind of like in a.
That sounds like a situationwhere, like you don't know where
it's going to go.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yes, exactly, and we used to do a ton of this when we
had our office with our lastcompany.
We're a fully distributedcompany now and we actually love
it.
Yeah, we see a lot of upside,but I've been pondering more and
more lately whether my ownmental state correlates to the
lack of that visioning time.
I told my co-founder not toolong ago I was like it's funny,
(23:31):
because the vision is evolvingand and changing and getting
hardened as we learn.
The reality get hit withreality and that can't.
For me, that the believabilitypiece that I mentioned is really
top of mind, because I can gointo my silo across the country
from you and envision the nextiteration of whatever of the
(23:52):
future.
And unless me and you andarguably the core team name that
talk about it, align on it,commit to it, it's not real,
it's just a daydream for me.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
How much of that collective commitment and
alignment is present for youtoday.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
You're wondering to what degree might that be at
play right now and causing someof the stuff that we're talking
about?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
I'm curious about the potential connection.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Some For sure.
(24:55):
This was a recent conversationI had with my co-founder.
You ebb and flow as you companybuild, or my experience has
been an ebb and a flow fromextremely focused execution work
to, okay, big risk.
These are early stage business,big risk, isolated.
We need to figure out the nextbig risk and in order to figure
out what that next rightmilestone is, we kind of have to
work backwards from the biggerpicture.
We have to refine the biggerpicture and then reverse
engineer that back to the nextbest sort of waypoint.
And I think recently this is aninteresting connection this
(25:18):
might be at play we have spentthe last six months very focused
on what might arguably becalled a pivot, a major
evolution of our strategy thatwe hadn't planned at the time
that we started to execute, andso it's a big new product.
It's very.
We did the thinking about whyand then we committed and we've
(25:40):
been very heads down and I thinklately is when I'm starting to
feel the like.
None of us have been talkingour internal cultural
conversation.
It's been a lot about this hugelocal mountain we have to climb
, not about why, like what thisis going to enable for us
long-term, or where we're goingto be in three to five years,
how this changes our vision forthe future.
Are we still in agreement onthe one that we were talking
(26:00):
about six to 12 months ago?
The conversation's nothappening and I think maybe
that's at play.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, so okay.
So what do you think wouldhappen if you start to have some
more of those conversationsinternally?
It's like this like hey, whereis this actually bringing us
toward?
Is this where we're wanting toend up?
Going back to the why and howthat might even be evolving.
If you were to have some moreof those conversations on a
regular basis, or even just thenext several weeks, how do you
(26:27):
think that would impact thingsfor you?
I have little doubt that itwould have a positive impact on
me.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
You think that would impact things for you.
I have little doubt that itwould have a positive impact on
me.
Sure, and it may be theantidote to the primary struggle
I'm having.
Even so, I have a high amountof confidence.
It would be helpful.
However, yeah, excuse me, Istruggle with it for a few
(26:53):
reasons.
Number one ironically, it feelsselfish of me sometimes I feel
(27:17):
guilty forcing everyone, whoeverthat is to my co-founder and
others, to like humor me inthese moments where this is for
me in a way, I need this for meto get back on the horse.
But you all are like we're,we're good, we're, we're like
feeling rewarded, like we seeenough into the future that that
you know we can get our jobdone.
And, yeah, this all sounds likeinteresting and fun, but we
have a lot of shit to do.
Like we're under a lot ofpressure and like we don't in
(27:39):
this quarter if we don't deliver.
Like you know and it's, and Ifeel like you do.
You're right, you have atremendous amount of work on
your plate.
You feel the pressure.
There's a lot of execution workand, to your point, if we don't
win the quarter, we don't earnthe right to like.
Go see out this vision, maybe,and so I hear that.
So part of it is I don't want tolike disrupt other people to
solve for my problem.
(28:00):
But I do understand how solvingfor my problem might be a
selfless act as well.
I might be able to lead better.
And then the other piece isthis like very boring tactical?
What's the method?
What's the medium?
Do I put a Zoom meeting on thecalendar for four hours and give
everybody DoorDash?
This just feels boring.
Do we get in person?
Is this the time for a retreat?
I don't feel like planning that.
(28:21):
You know what I mean.
So there's that.
There's those two pieces.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Okay, totally.
And my sense is that latterquestion.
You could sort those things outlogistically with not much
effort involved.
But this first one seemsinteresting to me.
It's like what's present is, oh, I don't feel this motivation,
I don't feel that drive, thatenergy you were referencing
earlier, that flow.
(28:46):
I think I'll summarize it asthat feeling of flow that you
felt like that's what I'm reallywanting, and what I've picked
up so far is that feeling offlow that you, you, you felt
like that's what I'm reallywanting and what I've picked up
so far is that that feeling offlow seems connected to you, uh,
or for you, connected to, um,just the you being connected to
the bigger picture, you feelingconnected and convicted and
(29:08):
believing the why of what you'redoing.
You feeling connected andconvicted and believing the why
of what you're doing, and itseems, importantly, that there's
that felt sense thatcollectively not in a silo, but
collectively everyone is rowingin that same direction and their
hearts and minds are also withyou in that conviction.
Spot on, yeah conviction Spoton.
(29:35):
Yeah, and there's this littleblocker here, like oh, but oh my
God, it's going to be such aselfish thing for me to ask
folks to go through thisexercise of whatever that ends
up being.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, because it's one of those, or the story I
tell myself is it's one of those, or the story I tell myself is
it's one of those squishy CEOthings where, like nobody's
really needing I'm the tip ofthe spear, typically to look
around the corner at what's next.
Right, I'm the first person tosay I'm at the end of my line of
(30:09):
sight.
Where are we going to go next?
To say I'm at the end of myline of sight, where are we
going to go next?
It's typically going to be me,almost by definition, and so
maybe the team is right there,maybe sometimes they're the ones
raising their hand, but moreoften than not I'm most worried
about the longest term sort ofline of sight, and so in a lot
of ways, the team's not feelingwhat I feel yet Let me quickly
(30:43):
ask you how do you know that?
Maybe I should say the team isnot concerned or blocked by the
same thing that I might beconcerned or blocked about, um,
whereas my motivation personallymaybe this has nothing to do
with my role and it's just apersonality thing it's, it's
tied to those things youmentioned.
(31:04):
If I don't have like a five to10 year vision that I'm stoked
about, I struggle to staymotivated week to week.
I don't know that that'sexactly the same modus operandi
for everybody on my team.
So many will say look, we'rereally focused.
We feel great right now.
We're motivated.
It's hard but we see it working.
(31:25):
We really need to focus on thequarter.
We have very clear goals andit's going to be hard, but we
really believe in these still.
So maybe it's not that theywould disagree that they could.
They can't see 10 years intothe future.
I think they would argue thatlike that's like maybe
tomorrow's problem if it wereleft up to them.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, I follow you.
That makes a lot of sense to me, troy.
So so you've identified that,like the absence of that clear
five to 10 year vision plan theone that you really believe is a
significant factor here and so,as you were saying, this has
been evolving for you From whereyou're sitting right now,
(32:02):
what's stopping you from gettingclear on what that plan is?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
it's a really good question and I don't have a
clear answer because I don'tknow that I believe some of the
things that I'm inclined to say.
I don't know if I reallybelieve that it's a logistics
problem.
I can't figure out how to getus all in the room and this just
(32:43):
sounds exhausting.
And do we really have time foran offsite right now?
And yada, yada, right, I don'tknow if that's really the
problem.
I don't know how much I reallybelieve that I'm inclined to
react Like that's my instinctual.
That's a piece.
The other piece is well, thingsare changing.
I'm changing.
(33:05):
I'm changing back to where westarted the conversation, like
I'm changing some.
I mean, our vision is in place.
We're just talking about itless.
Maybe we have new languagearound it, maybe we just need to
stay more.
We need to behave on a week toweek basis with a little bit
more connection to that thing tokeep me believing and excited.
(33:26):
But I, I don't know.
I, I, maybe I'm just fallingunfamiliar or out of touch and I
need to just simply carve outtime for me to do the work for
(33:47):
me in figuring out what I need.
Maybe that's journaling, maybethat's going for a long walk and
really focusing on this.
I think I'm also maybe eitheravoiding or using that time.
I would never use that.
I don't have time for that,because I look at the way my
time is spent and it's on abunch of things that I don't
(34:08):
what specifically?
Speaker 1 (34:09):
what do you?
What do you find you'reavoiding?
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
uh, sorry, like doing the hard work to reconnect
myself with the vision, toreconsider that, to try to
harden it right.
A vision is a this amorphousthing that may mean different
things and I think as we buildmore, we can actually get more
detailed about what thatactually looks like and what
we've maybe learned.
Do we still believe this?
Maybe it's a little morerefined.
(34:33):
So I think there's always workto do in terms of that picture,
but for some reason I haven'tbeen inclined to sit down block
time and prioritize this big,squishy, imaginative thinking.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Well, you said that the vision was clear, though for
the business.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
It's clear as it as it needed to be in any given
point in time.
I think you know it's worth.
Maybe it's not worth the rabbithole, but it's worth just
noting that.
What is a vision?
I mean, is it a statementthat's written on a doc?
Is it a shared set of soundsthat we made together last year?
You know what are we talkingabout here, and for me that's
(35:15):
probably a combination of like acouple sentences that we have
written in a document, couplesentences that we have written
in a document, and then a like10 years of ideas that have like
the amalgamation of 10 years ofan ideas in my head throughout
conversations with many peoplearound me, including some I work
with now.
And is it worth like gettingthat on paper in a more detailed
way and in really picking apart?
(35:35):
Is it sitting in a conversationand really trying to figure out
where we agree, disagree, howclear of a picture can we paint?
And so I think there's work todo there always, even if we feel
satisfied in any way.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I think that's right.
There's always going to be somelevel of checking in with it,
revisiting it, iterating,refining.
You said that you guys are inthe middle of a pivot, so I
assume that that came aboutbecause of new information,
updates, revisions.
Pivot so I assume that thatcame about because of new
information, updates, revisions,et cetera, and I can't help.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
But yeah, in reality changing, yeah, go ahead,
markets changing, like a visionto me speaks to the future world
that could exist with ourimpact, and it's not a roadmap,
right, and so the order ofoperations, the strategy to't?
It's not, it's not the road,it's not a roadmap, right, and
(36:27):
so the, the order of operations,the strategy to get there, et
cetera.
That's all like ever changingand that's based on new
information.
So yeah, the, the vision,though may it may evolve to
based on that, but it should beprobably less.
It should be more evergreen,probably, than the strategy.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I would agree with that.
Yeah, I think that there's, tothe extent that vision can be
like much more high-level,directional, right, there's more
breathing room, wiggle room forkind of how you get there, and
strategy and the roadmap and soon.
But back to this thing aroundlike you know, what I've
(36:59):
received from you so far is asense of like, oh I, what I've
received from you so far is asense of like, oh I really want
to get that sense of flow again,drive, that motivation, and
earlier we were exploring thisquestion of like.
Oh well, I don't know what Iwant.
You know that you want thatdrive, but there's also this
kind of question what do Iactually want?
And so I wonder this questionmight not make any sense, but I
(37:27):
wonder, as you go, revisit thisquestion what is the vision
actually?
How am I going to want tochange and where is it going to
go?
To what extent bringing in thisfact that you don't yet know
what you want right now mightaid in the process?
(37:47):
Right, does that make sense?
Like the sense of like.
I'm going to bring my own notknowing into this whole
exploration.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
What's coming up for me is actually like the, the
inverse of your question, likewhat I'm wondering, and I, if I
understand it correctly, I thinkI'm wondering whether pursuing
clarity on this vision piece andreconnecting with it myself and
the team and just really kindof doing some work here, whether
that will actually tell mewhether this is what I want
(38:25):
still, or whether I wantsomething else.
So I'm wondering whether thelack of that vision at the
moment, or that clarity, thatzeal for it, is that what's
actually causing me to wanderoff and all these other
hypotheses.
And it's really just me towander off and all these other
hypotheses and it's really justhas nothing to do with all this
other shit.
Maybe I want to go do this andhave a family and start, but
(38:49):
that's all independent and notmutually exclusive of like being
really stoked at work.
And so for me, the historicaldata suggests that when I'm
connected to the vision, datasuggests that when I'm connected
to the vision, I don't I feelvery stable from a purpose
productivity standpoint.
So I wonder if I start thereand I do this work, that and I
(39:11):
land, and I still am scratchingmy head at the end like ah, we
did the work, but I'm just notfeeling that maybe that's where
I go.
Okay, interesting, maybe infact, I do want something else,
and this is a really healthyquestion to explore.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, if I'm hearing you right, troy, the
uncomfortable thing aboutexploring the vision of the
company and how it might want tochange is that you might find
that you actually don't wantthat for yourself.
And so then you find yourselfdistracting yourself by going
(39:50):
into these other rabbit holes.
What else do I want in my life?
All really important questions,but the fact that you might
come to discover at the end ofthat exploration with the
company that, no, this is notreally quite so aligned with me
is having you move away from it.
And then you're like wait, butwhy am I so unmotivated?
Because I haven't answered thequestion yet, or gotten to that
(40:13):
question yet.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah, I think that's resonant.
And back to the top of theconversation, and I back to the
(40:35):
top of the conversation.
I that what the process lookslike for me to reconnect and
re-solidify and gain newfoundconviction for the next chapter,
that this inflection point mustinclude a genuine
open-mindedness, that that isnot the landing spot.
It's a very strange thing forme.
I need to genuinely beopen-minded to explore, which
makes me seem, and in fact am inmoments, genuinely confused,
(40:57):
genuinely unsure.
I'm genuinely not sure if Iquote unquote want to do this
anymore and that's, that's gottabe true in order for me to
double click back in and belocked in because I knew that I
really gave myself an earnestopportunity to to explore
something else, and that couldbe very scary for people around
(41:19):
me because I can't be very easyto be misunderstood.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Yes, yeah, I think you got it.
I think you got it.
I can notice that you're justholding this really important
truth.
It's like to do this right.
There is the openness to thismystery of what are you going to
find.
If you go in feeling like I,have a preconceived notion of
(41:45):
how this is going to end up, youknow, it's very easy to find
out that you're like this islike you can be very misaligned,
right or I?
Speaker 2 (41:54):
manufactured some outcome.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, I didn't buy it .
Speaker 2 (41:57):
It's kind of like setting an artificial goal that
you know is artificial Works forsome people, doesn't for others
.
You kind of know you just madeup the line in the sand.
I think for me I'm the type ofperson that needs to really have
a lot of reasons behind it, andfor me my conviction and my
willingness to explore andwander are two sides of the same
(42:18):
coin.
I get my conviction from thewandering.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
You have to have gone through that process of the
wandering.
Yeah, exactly, and like yousaid, it could be scary for
others.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Absolutely, and I think as I grow and mature and I
learn more about myself and Inotice how I show up at various
junctures, the onus is on me tohelp other people around me that
depend on my mental state orare working in collaboration
(42:50):
with me.
It's it's on me to bring themalong the journey with me in a
way that they understand whatI'm going through right, so in a
way that they can still feelstable, they can still feel they
understand that the convictionthat they love about me when I'm
locked in comes as a result ofme having these moments where I
(43:13):
genuinely seem like I might bemore open to things that aren't
aligned with our say, company'sgoals in the moment, but that
actually helped me execute onour goals, come up with new ones
and have an immense amount offuel when I kind of come back
from this wandering.
That's our board, that's mypeers, that's our team, that's.
I mean it starts with meunderstanding that about myself
(43:33):
and I'm getting some claritythrough this conversation and
some language that helps mearticulate that dynamic.
But that is a a that could be.
It could add insult to injurywhen you're sort of confused and
you're letting, so you got togo through this wandering
process and yet also you havethe pressure of other people
maybe judging you or makingassumptions about what that
(43:57):
means for them.
Yeah, that you know you kind ofgot to remain open-minded to.
Yeah, technically I need tohold space for that possibility,
but I've also done this everytwo years for the last 15 years
and I almost always I mean everytime.
Thus far, I've come back withlike double the conviction as
before.
So you know, that's the onlydata set I have to work with you
.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Have a track record, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, my tendencies are my tendencies.
I don't know who I'll be nextyear but, I, can tell you who
I've tended to be.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Yeah, and part of that is that openness of
discovery, absolutely, yeah,awesome.
So as we wrap here, troy, likeI, I'm, I'm just noticing that
you're, you're, you're showingit just a little bit differently
from how we started.
I'm curious, then I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Let's go figure out this vision.
Awesome, what's?
Speaker 1 (44:45):
the insight that you want to really just underscore
here and how are you going tocarry it forward?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, what's become more salient to me in our
conversation is that the P0 forme, the, the, the.
The first order of business onthe journey to me feeling this
(45:10):
flow again is to do the vision,work with my team and myself to
figure out whether that is thelinchpin here, and it's not
(45:34):
really worth pondering all thisother stuff, because I really do
believe that's the firstquestion to answer so I can
focus there.
That will take some work, butit will also give me a lot of
clarity and I think it may bethe solution in and of itself
and, if not, it may point me andgive me permission to earnestly
explore these other questionsabout what do I want.
So I think I actually have morefocus in that I can put the
(45:55):
what do I want questions, whichare very squishy and open-ended,
aside, and I can focus on thenext step now and not feel as
paralyzed or overwhelmed by allthese possible futures and
instead say I have a planawesome, fantastic.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Yeah, I'm excited to hear, uh, the outcome here, like
as you, as you dive in and yougo into that unknown and explore
, like, what you come out of, uhof you walk out of the cave,
what you come out holding.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Maybe I'll be behind the counter making you a
cappuccino.
In not too much time from now,I'll be the first customer.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
Yeah, great, awesome, this is great.
I really appreciate it.
Fantastic.
Yeah, thanks for coming on,troy.
This was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, likewise Super helpful and productive and
enjoyable.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
I really appreciate it, Brian, Awesome.
If I were to sum up the sessionwith one question, it would be
this how much room for doubt isallowed for a founder?
In my view, Troy's struggle hada few different components.
First, Troy had lost someconnection with his company's
vision.
That alone can create a lot ofanxiety, because a good founder
a quote unquote is supposed tobe the keeper of the company's
vision.
Secondly, Troy was also alittle unsure of what he wanted
(47:04):
in his current phase of life,which added to his anxiety and
his discomfort.
And then, finally, he wasafraid that by going and
clarifying the company's vision,he might potentially discover
that he was no longer personallyaligned with it.
In other words, Troy wasresisting a lot of unknowns and
that's the most human thing inthe world to avoid those darker,
more shadowy parts of her life.
Toward the end, Troy saw thatthe way out was to drop his
(47:27):
resistance and to move towardthe unknown with a sense of
open-mindedness and even awillingness to be lost and
confused for a little while.
And when he gets to the otherside, he will sit with the
satisfaction knowing that hegave himself full permission to
go and explore all of hisoptions.
Thank you for listening.
To Slow Down, to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed this episode,please give it a like, a
subscribe or rate it in yourfavorite podcasting app.
(47:48):
And if you're a founder who'slooking to learn how coaching
can help them reach the nextlevel, please reach out to me at
dashingleadershipcom.
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