November 25, 2024 • 50 mins
Does every decision feel like it needs a spreadsheet? In this coaching session, startup leader Nina Iordanova explores the hidden reasons behind her compulsive need to analyze and justify every choice.
Together we uncover how her drive for achievement masks a deeper fear - one that many high performers share but rarely discuss. Nina discovers that her analytical habits aren't just about making good decisions; they're a shield against vulnerability and potential rejection.
Key themes:
• The relationship between perfectionism and fear
• How over-analysis can mask deeper emotional needs
• Finding balance between achievement and self-trust
• Transforming your relationship with uncertainty
• Making decisions from a place of clarity rather than anxiety
Enjoyed this episode? Ready to take your leadership and personal growth to the next level? Please visit my website to learn more about coaching with me.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Slow Down to Speed Up, where we have real
one-time coaching sessions withstartup founders working through
the challenges of leadership.
I'm your host and executivecoach, brian Wang.
Today in the show we have NinaYordanova, a driven startup
leader who's grappling with thedilemma many high achievers face
how do you balance the urge toconstantly push forward with the
desire to simply enjoy life asit unfolds?
(00:20):
It's a tension that can leaveeven the most successful
individuals feeling conflictedand unsure as it unfolds.
It's a tension that can leaveeven the most successful
individuals feeling conflictedand unsure.
Nina comes to the sessiontrying to figure out why she
feels compelled to analyze andjustify every single one of her
decisions.
This can be a reallyuncomfortable topic to explore,
because it forces us to confrontthe contradictions within
ourselves.
On one hand, we have this driveto achieve and excel, pushing
us to always do more.
On the other, there's a part ofus that yearns for peace,
(00:43):
contentment and the simple joyof being present.
When these two sides are atodds, it can feel like we're at
war with ourselves, leading to adeep sense of unease and
self-doubt.
But here's the thing what ifslowing down could actually help
us speed up?
What if creating space for allof our experiences, even the
uncomfortable ones, can lead tomore authentic and effective
living.
In this session, nina uncoverssome surprising insights about
(01:06):
shame, fear and the power ofself-acceptance.
She discovers that sometimesthe path to growth isn't about
pushing harder, but rather it'sabout welcoming all parts of
ourselves.
By the end of our session, ninagains a new perspective on
decision-making and finds somepractical steps to navigate this
internal tension in her lifeand leadership.
If you've ever felt tornbetween conflicting parts of
(01:28):
yourself or struggled to findbalance in your own life, this
episode might just offer theinsights you've been looking for
.
Let's tune in and see what thisjourney takes us Enjoy.
Hey, nina, it's so great to seeyou.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Brian, so good to see you too.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Absolutely.
I'm super pumped to be herewith you and you know we spoke a
little bit about coming on hereand having a session, and so
we're just going to kick it off.
I'm going to ask you what arewe here for?
What are we?
What are we getting?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
into.
We're going to get intosomething I've been thinking
about for a little while, whichis, I think, just this tension
between how do you kind of feellike you're making the most out
of your life and then also, howdo you relax into whatever is
happening and just to like fleshthat out a little bit more.
(02:14):
I feel like, honestly, I'mhappiest when opportunities come
to me and I can just be like,yeah, this looks great, awesome,
I'll do it.
But I feel like if I'm justwaiting for external things to
happen, I'm like, but what if?
Does that mean I'm not applyingmyself?
Does not mean I'm not reallylike pushing myself to make the
most of opportunities?
Does that mean I'm justsettling for whatever's coming
to me?
And it almost feels like Ishould be working really hard,
(02:39):
as hard as I can.
And if I'm not, then it's like,oh well, you're not really
making the most of theopportunities you have, you're
not really going for what youwant, you're just settling for
what's coming to you.
Yeah, and just trying to figureout, like, how do you navigate
these two things that seem veryat odds with each other.
Like, if I push really hard,I'm not super happy.
If I don't push, I feel yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
So there's just off the bat.
You're bringing up this tension, where you seem to have
identified this idea that inorder to feel happy or satisfied
, I have to push.
There's this thing aroundmaking sure I live my life, uh,
(03:24):
like maximizing my potential.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yes, yes, totally.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Um, but you also notice it sounds like that when
you do that, there comes a pointwhere that actually starts to
have a negative effect on justquality of life, enjoyment, et
cetera.
But if you, it's almost like aspectrum is what I'm hearing
from the get-go it's like.
But if you're relaxing too much, then there's a sense of like
(03:49):
oh, I'm missing out, oh, I'mmissing out on my potential, and
so it sounds like right now,where you are, is you're like
how do I navigate?
That is the word you use.
I think how do I navigate thator how do I balance?
That is is kind of the highlevel of what I'm hearing from
you.
Yeah, I suspect that this isnot a new dynamic for you.
(04:09):
So tell me a little bit abouthow this tension has gone for
you historically.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, so I think it's only new in the sense that like
I can put more words to it andI can see it when it happens,
versus just like constantlybeing in it, because I think, in
terms of being in it, it's likea lifelong thing, um, and I'd
say I started very much on theend of, like you have to push
yourself as hard as possible.
You have to go for everyopportunity, not just like put
yourself in the ring, but pushto be at the very top.
(04:38):
Um, and that's even like youknow, applying for university,
like I applied for the bestbusiness school I could find and
the best theater school.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's like the achiever in you.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Totally, totally.
And I think what you said aboutmaximizing your potential, like
there's a lot of things tiedinto that word.
Yeah, of like wanting to be thebest, wanting to achieve,
wanting to do everything.
And it's funny like a few weeksago I was talking to Matt the
Matt that you introduced me to,like the coach that I've been
working with, and I was like Idon't know if complaining was
(05:11):
the right word, but I was like,oh, you know, I'm like doing
coaching and I'm also doing thispart-time, like consulting work
with a friend, and I'm alsodoing these like photo shoots
with I used to be an actor andnow I'm doing modeling, I guess,
um, and I'm also like writingmy newsletter and I'm also
playing beach volleyball threetimes a week and I'm also
playing dungeons in a dragon andI'm doing this and this and
this and this and this and doyou have to be the best at all
(05:32):
those things, just curious Iguess in that way I'd say, man,
each one of those is like athing into, into and of itself,
yeah, but I think in that I wasmore looking at it like I'm
making the most of my summer.
Every hour I have somethinggoing on there is no hour that I
am wasting.
But when I looked at that I waslike that is so much like that's
(05:54):
not.
When I look at my days, I'm notnecessarily like, oh my God,
I'm so excited to wake up to 18different things to do from
today into eternity.
From today into eternity.
Yeah, oh, wow, okay.
It feels like a really big loadto carry, but look, it's all
fun.
Look at you getting to developall these different skills and
do all these fun things.
That's so great.
(06:14):
So I feel like that's alreadyone thing.
Where I really really see it isjust this idea of even how do I
spend my time.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
One of the things I noticed in just your, your
reflection just now is that yourvoice changes.
When you talk about this,you're like, look at me, I'm
making the most out of my summer.
Or like, oh, I guess I'm doingall this.
Da, da, da, like I'm curious,what's happening for you.
Maybe more specifically, like,who are you speaking to when
(06:40):
you're in that voice?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
you're in that voice.
So I think part of it is justlike me wanting to perform and
show the difference between thetwo sides Sure.
And then I think there's also abit of an association of like
look it takes, you gotta bestrong to do all these different
things, but it's good for you.
That is the thing that will.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
There it is again.
Yeah, tell me about, like,who's speaking there?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I think who's speaking is the the thing that I
think, how do I put it?
Like that sounds right, butthat I don't feel is right and
so it's like listen.
Realistically speaking, itmakes sense that you do all
these things.
Look at the benefits that willcome from it.
But then if I speak from my ownperspective, I'm like I don't
(07:30):
love this situation.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I don't know if I love this.
Okay, so there's like some partof you that's saying,
essentially saying you should bedoing this and almost like
trying to sell the benefits toyou, and then you're like
hearing it almost skeptically.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I think so and of fits to you.
And then you're like hearing italmost skeptically, I think so,
and like I can't even reallyown that voice.
Because when I go in the otherdirection, if I'm like, okay,
cool, we'll drop eight of thesethings, just do two of them,
then it's back to like, ohreally, you're just not going to
do anything with your time,really, you're just going to
leave it wide open and see whatdrops in and hopefully it's
going to be good.
Yeah, that's how you're goingto live your life.
So it's like a flip alwayscomes, no matter which end of
that spectrum I'm leaning into.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, so there's like this task manager that is
saying fill your days and it'sgoing to be great and, come on,
you know like this is going tomake your like each and every
moment like amazing and youought to love this.
You should love this.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Is that the same?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
voice that's like, like, what are you doing when
you like, start to drop somethings from the list I think so,
and I think it takes on like adifferent flavor, let's say like
a different tone.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
But I think the underlying thing of like, why
are you doing it like this?
Speaker 1 (08:38):
this isn't the right approach yeah, for those who are
listening, nina is like jabbingher finger at the camera.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Just like huh, okay, okay.
So let me ask you this question.
Um, let's just pretend for amoment that this voice was not
present whatsoever in yourexperience.
It wasn't trying to cajole youor convince you to do anything.
(09:05):
It wasn't like poking at youand criticizing you when it
noticed that you were relaxing.
What would life be like in thatmovie?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
It's so interesting because, like, as you started to
talk, I started to imagine itand I think there was like a
quarter of a millisecond wherethat thought existed.
And I think there was like aquarter of a millisecond where
that thought existed and thenimmediately, like it's like the,
the voice, just holds handswith them.
It's like no, I'm here, hey,I'm still here.
Yeah, you're like attached.
Like I can't imagine a lifethat's just me doing what I want
(09:40):
, or relaxed.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, it sounds like that this part of you has been
around for a long time andreally is working hard to like
do its job.
It's not wanting at all to letyou even entertain the idea of
it not being here.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, cause my first thought was like, oh my God, I
could just like accept that Iwant to do things that come to
me, versus putting in a ton ofeffort to like source
opportunities or I don't know,like even thinking about work
the two jobs that I've had, likequote, unquote jobs, let's say
in the tech industry yeah um,both of them came to me by
(10:17):
somebody else, essentiallyreaching out and being like hey,
we have a role, I think you'dbe a good fit, are you
interested?
and I said yes to bothopportunities and like I'm so
happy with doing that.
But I think there's a partthat's like well, should you be
looking more, should you be liketrying to find other options
that then you can compare andthen you can see that you've
actually made the right decisionversus just something that fell
.
So yeah, when I imagine like oh, what would life without that
(10:42):
voice look?
Like I'm like no-transcriptanalysis, I've decided these are
(11:15):
the truly the objectively bestones.
Like I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, cause that sounds exhausting, by the
way.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yes, which is also a thing I love to do.
I love to do this like let meUber Eats, let me open eight
carts of different food optionsand then I'll narrow them down
and then I'll cross, compare andthen I'll see, and at the end
of 40 minutes I'll close all thecarts because I'm exhausted and
I don't want to order any ofthe things.
So maybe that's like actuallykind of at the core of what I'm
saying is like there.
(11:45):
What I'm saying is like there'sthis like thing where you're
really wanting to make sure youland on the right decision.
Yes, yes, and I feel like okay,if I'm not running this wild
analysis and I'm just acceptingthe first thing that seems like
interesting.
Then there's a part of methat's like oh God, oh God, what
are you missing out on?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Oh God yeah, and what's the feeling underneath
that?
Like I hear there's like thiswhole dynamic where it's like I
have to compare, I have tooptimize, and the way I hear
that like I have to employ thatstrategy so that I don't have to
feel something in particularthat's like that.
(12:24):
Oh God, like what's that?
I want to invite you just toslow down for a moment.
I see you looking up.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I think one thing came immediately.
I'm just trying to see ifthat's actually.
Ah, I'm running an analysis tosee if anything else comes up
and if that is truly the truestthing.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I want to invite you to drop the analysis for a
moment and just see what younotice in your body.
We I want to invite you to dropthe analysis for a moment and
just see what you notice in yourbody.
We were just having thisconversation before the call
started.
Yeah, so just slow down and seewhat you notice.
That's there.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
I think two things come up sort of at the same time
, where one is like a lot ofjust ease and relaxation and joy
of like, great, I can just dothis thing, awesome, let's keep
moving forward.
And then, almost at the sametime it's like, oh god, but what
if I'm wrong?
And then I have no way todefend the choice that I made
because I can't be like, well,listen, I compared the in-ear
(13:25):
headphones and I compared thewireless and, honestly, the
extra cost of $200 didn't reallyseem like it was worth it.
And then, you know, if I runthat analysis, I feel like I
have reasons to justify thechoices that I made.
So if I don't know externalsomebody or if I had to be like,
well, why did you make thiswrong choice, I can defend it
and justify it.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Okay.
So what I hear in that is thatthere's some sense that if I
don't run the analysis, thenthere will be some moment where
I have to defend my choice tosomebody, and if I haven't done
that, then I can't defend it.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
And then, if I can't defend this thing that I
actually chose, what's thefeeling there?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I actually chose.
What's the feeling there?
I think definitely like scary,naked, vulnerable, like like
exposed sort of.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
This.
Tell me if this lands.
But what I'm hearing in that is, there's something really scary
and vulnerable about simplyowning the thing that you want,
owning your desire, even if it'sjust like I want this head,
this set of headphones.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
What's what's coming up for you as I say that.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
I think just one part is just surprised, that that's
the core of what it is.
And then the second part iseven like oh cool if I follow
that train of thought.
Like what if I do just say,yeah, I want it because I want
it?
There's no further supportingevidence to say this is the
right thing to want, or to likejustify it.
(15:18):
It's just I want it becausethat's what's yeah I don't know
what I want.
I feel like I can't even like gofurther than that.
I just stopped there and I'mlike yeah ah, what is that
allowed?
What?
What if somebody says no?
Or what if that's not right?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
yeah.
So there's like some sense oflike I just what I watched
happen is you're getting intouch with a sense of authentic
desire, like I want this thing.
That's good enough reason forwanting it, yeah.
And then it's like you hit thismoment where, like, but wait,
what is that okay?
Like there was some permissionthat seemed to be like that you
(16:02):
were seeking.
Like there was some permissionthat seemed to be like that you
were seeking.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
It's even like uh, I have a dog and if there's a
balcony and it's high up, she'lljust like she loves being
outside.
But she'll just sort of stickher head right at the edge and
then she'll like with one paw,really gently, like not even
touch the balcony floor, andthen she'll just pull it in and
be like, but she won't gooutside.
(16:28):
And so it feels sort of thesame where I'm like like
sticking my head out a littlebit, I'm like, oh, you can't,
what happens if you just walkout of the store?
Yeah, saying yeah, I just wantit, because I want it.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
They do say that peasant owners are alike, you
know, so it sounds like you guysshare that in common.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
it sounds like you guys share that in common and I
think, like, if I bring it backto the first thing that I
brought in, which is you knowwhat is this?
this tension between doing allthe things that I think I should
be doing as well as I can andtrying to really push and
analyze, versus just like doingthe things that come to me and
that feels so easy and justletting life unfold yeah I think
(17:03):
I can map those like prettyclosely of oh what if I just did
the things that I wanted, yeah,and trusted that that was
enough, without needing to proveor justify yeah versus oh, but
you need to like, you're justallowed to leave yourself alone
and want what you want, butwhere does that take you?
Speaker 1 (17:23):
And you'd also have to feel something scary around.
It is what it seems to me.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yes, yeah, yeah, cause again, when I picture like
, okay, what if you're allowedto want what you want, I just
feel like sort of the feararising and I'm like, oh God,
what do you do with that?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
What if you just allowed it to be here right now?
Speaker 2 (17:51):
No need to resist it or push it away hmm, it's like a
(18:14):
mix of enticing and exciting ina mix of like you're telling me
to go out in like a hail ofarrows, wearing absolutely
nothing and just being like,yeah, I'm sure this is totally
fine.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Like it just seems like pretty certain that it's
going to be a bad time.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
So I wonder if we can just play with this for a
second.
So fear is generally going tobe our brain's way of predicting
something.
It's predicting something'sgoing to happen, and part of
what makes fear and anxiety likereally tricky is that sometimes
(18:55):
the thing that is predicting isreally vague.
So it's it's kind of vaguenessis part of what gives it its
power, right, because we don'treally like if it's so vague,
then it could be anything.
Right, better, better, better.
Lock myself up a little bit.
So I wonder if, if you were tospend a little bit of um, a
(19:17):
moment, just to see if you couldget more specific, like you
mentioned, like there's a hailof arrows there.
What is it that your system ispredicting will happen when
you're just like fully allowingyourself to want what you want
and enjoy that?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I think.
So two things come upimmediately.
One is like what if I hear?
No, and then that's like ohwell, if I had arguments, I
could like justify, or I couldconvince, or I could, you know,
lay out an argument for why thisthing makes sense, Whereas if
it's just oh, I want it, becauseI want it.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
And then someone says no, it's like oh, that feels
like suddenly a lot morepersonal, Cool, and I think
that's scary.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
All right, so we we're gonna probably come back
to that.
And what's the second thingthat came up?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I think then the second thing is, if I, let's say
, do something wrong or make thewrong choice, then it's like
wow, you're really stupid, likeyou just thought that was the
way to go, why oh, you don'tknow why, you just did it.
Cool, you didn't stop to thinkabout that, you didn't stop to
consider other options.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Like.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I think that question is very like.
I always want to be preparedfor that and be like.
No, I considered these are thethings.
This is the Excel spreadsheetthat I cross referenced.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Right, yeah, which we touched on.
So you mentioned that there'slike simply just somebody saying
no to you.
Like there's a moment you goout in the world you ask for
something that you want.
That's generally how it works.
Like you want something you can, often you'll have to ask
somebody for it.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
And they might say no .
And then what you described waslike, oh, like instantly, your
arguments need to come.
You know, come to the frontline there.
Like no, no, let me convinceyou.
So there's this experience ofreceiving a no that feels you
said personal.
It's like really, really scaryin some way there.
And then there was like thisother thing that sounded like
(21:17):
going back to this criticalvoice.
It's like, oh, now thiscritical voice is going to be
beating me up for getting itwrong and like how could you do
this?
And like why didn't you thinkof this, this and this and this
and this, and it's, it's sort ofum, kind of bullying you is is
a bit of what I hear.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, it's funny, cause that's what it feels like,
although almost like I knowyou're just trying to make sure
I do the best thing and likeit's looking out for me, but
like in a very aggressiveoff-putting, shutting down way
right, yeah, yeah so in somesense like both of those.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
This might not make any sense, but in a a sense,
when I hear that those twothings, like the receiving, the
no and like the bullying, almostfeel like the same thing, but I
don't know if that's what'strue for you I'm curious Are
those the same thing or do theyfeel different?
And if they do feel different,which of those feels more
(22:23):
challenging for you?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, I want to say they feel different.
(22:47):
But let me just think on that alittle bit, Because I guess
they're also related.
Because when I think like oh,what if I just said no, or sorry
, like let me back up thecontext, I'm thinking is
(23:08):
somebody asked me out for dinnerto a specific place and in my
head I was like I don't want togo to that place, Like I like it
, but I don't want to go rightnow.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
And I was like, oh God, but I can't just say no
because I don't want to.
That's weird and immediatelylike.
Tied to that, thought I like,oh, I should offer different
options, I could look atdifferent things, or I should
say why I don't want to go therebecause I went recently and I
need to like, sort of.
So I feel like that analysisand options is also tied to like
so there's something around notjust saying.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
There's something around like just simply wanting
what you want and allowing thatto be the case, but also there's
something around like not beingable to say no, like just not
letting it be enough that youdon't want something and for you
just to say no to something Ithink so.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Both like both to say no and to say yes to things
where it's an unknown.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah, I feel like I just want reasons to fall back
on for everything for yeses, fornos, for maybes, for picking
between things.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, as I zoom out, it's like, oh, you're, you're,
you're, you're trying to likerest, control of the future.
I wanted to stay in control of,like, what might happen
whenever you want something ordon't want something, because
(24:38):
it's scary to not know what'sgoing to happen when you respond
to the world in some way likeyes or no and I feel like to not
have control over the responseas well yeah it feels like to me
, like building a building withno foundation and you're like
this could any first wind wouldknock this thing down?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
this is not built in a way that's stable at all, and
I think that's very scary to belike.
Oh, I have no nothing else tosay except no, I just want this.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Can we give that a try right here?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, in what way?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Like I'm noticing already that there's like
something coming up for you,this, this sense of like what
might happen, like there's likeI don't know what's about to
happen.
Um, so I want to see if I can,let's try this.
(25:33):
What if you were to ask me todo something right here and you
have no idea how I'm going torespond, and it could just be
like anything like, like youknow, you could just ask me to
like go blink my eyes threetimes or something.
It doesn't, you know whatever.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
But here's the thing it has to be something you
genuinely want me to do, okay.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Okay, could you take your headphones off for a sec
(26:11):
and just like, must hair alittle bit like run hands
through hair.
Sure, beautiful, also funny,because the camera froze for
half of that.
I saw it happening.
I saw it happening.
All right, let's try again.
Something else Beautiful, alsofunny, because the camera froze
for half of that.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
It'll show up.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I saw it happening.
I saw it happening.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
All right, let's try again Something else oh no.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Could you tell me the name of the city you were born
in?
Speaker 1 (26:44):
No.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Okay, could you move the mic one inch to the left?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
No.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
What's allowing you to do this?
Right now?
You're like.
You don't seem to be having aproblem doing this.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
I think, because it's Hmm, hmm.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Maybe because it's so like small and inconsequential.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
okay, yeah, that the want is more, but I don't like,
as'm saying this, I just don'tknow if this would translate to
outside of the session, likeeven if I was with a friend and
there was something small and aconsequential, like oh, can we
switch what sides of the roadwe're walking on, or I don't
know whatever.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
So maybe we can come up with a scenario that feels a
little riskier.
How about that?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Hmm, and I will add, just in case this is interesting
, like one of the things Ithought of is like oh, I wonder
if you could disconnect the wirefrom the headphones.
Then I was like oh, I don'tknow if that messes up the audio
.
I don't want to ask to do that,because then what if that
messes up the recording, or whenyou get it back?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
no, I don't like I don't want to mess things up
totally, totally so I was like Ijust don't want to.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I'm not Totally, totally so I was like I just
don't want to.
I'm not going to ask that.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Is that the fear that by asking for what you want or
saying no, you'll mess things up?
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I think for sure.
I don't know if that's all ofit, but for sure that's a big
part yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
And if you mess things up, what will happen?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Hmm, I think anything between one, like losing
respect in that person's eyes,or like losing care, losing
regard, whatever, like justthere being suddenly a rift,
yeah, all the way to like therelationship ending.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
That sounds really risky.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, and I think that's like there's no like, oh
no, it's going to be totallyfine.
I'm like it starts with eitherthere's a rift created and that
ends with the relationshipending, and that's like the
spectrum we play in as soon asyou mess things up.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, so let me just reflect that back.
It sounds like in some waymaybe many ways you've learned
that asking for what you wantmeans we talked about, like,
what the brain's predicting.
The brain's going to predictthat the relationship is now
severed.
(29:45):
I've lost connection.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
I think so Test it out, see what that feels like in
your body.
As I'm saying that If Nina goesout in the world, she lets go
of control.
She says here's the thing Iwant you ask for it.
There's like some sense thatuh-oh, disconnection cut off.
(30:12):
Is that what you're noticing?
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Totally and it feels like it's rising up like in the
body, in the middle part, sortof, and then it just hits a
point around my collarbones andit's like, no, listen, it's not
worth it.
You don't really want this.
You want the relationship more.
You want this old, okay, cool.
So then just leave this thing.
Who cares about this thing thatyou want, cool, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
So what if you were just to put all your focus on
that right now, this feelingthat is rising, See if you can
connect further to that.
It sounds like some part ofit's trying to protect you.
Avoid the disconnection.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Just ask it what does it need from you?
Right now it's interestingbecause it's almost like a
little microcosm or a fractalwhere it's like I guess part of
my fear is ooh, if I share whatI really want, then I can be
rejected on that thing that Ireally want.
So not only will someone seemore of me, but they'll say no.
(31:19):
And so when I look at this partinside and I'm like what do you
want?
It's like fuck, sorry, f you,I'm not going to tell you what I
want.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I was like I'm not going to tell you what I want,
cause what if you don't give mewhat I want?
And then I end up like screwed,I'm not going to do that.
So it's interesting that I seelike that reflected internally,
which is sort of what I feelexternally as well.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, not only might I be rejected, but I might be
rejected for who I am in thatdesire this person sees me now.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
And it's like they're not just rejecting my request,
they're rejecting me like themore authentic, honest me.
Yes, I just want to check thatout and see if that's kind of
how it feels.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, and I find it really interesting that, like
again, when I try and reflect onthat, it's like this inner part
is also like no, I'm not goingto share that with you.
You can't know that part of me,because then what if you say no
and then you know what I want,but you're also not giving it to
me?
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I will not stand for that what do you want to say to
this part, as, just as we'rehearing it, what do you want to
say to this part just as we'rehearing it.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Hmm, you know what I think the only thing I'd want to
(33:14):
say is yeah, I know that'sreally scary to do that and I
don't think I'd want to push orbe like no, you should, It'll be
totally fine.
Trust me, We'll figure it.
Like no, I just.
Yeah, I know it's hard.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Just give it a try, Just offer that, exactly that to
(34:05):
this part of you right now.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
hmm, yeah, it just feels like very defensive.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, I just want to make a suggestion then.
Yeah, just to let it know thatyou see its defensiveness and
that you don't need it to changein any way.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, I think that helps a little.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
What do you notice?
How does it respond?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I think it's just like a little calmer and like
less reactive.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
So, rather than being like fully activated, like this
, it's just a little bit morelike okay, I'm here, I'm having
feelings, I'm having thoughts,but it's not like so aggressive,
I guess.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, and if you go back to that sense that you have
, it's just whatever impulse youhave around, like the thing
that you're wanting, anythingthat you're wanting, whether
it's asking for something sothat you might get it or to say
no to something.
How is that feeling right now?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
I think still pretty scary, but like less activated
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, that makes sense.
You've been kind of in thishabit, it sounds like, of
noticing that you want somethingand maybe the impulse arises to
pursue it, ask for it, but thenthey're just like wait, no,
hold on.
I can't like let, I can't jumpright to that.
(36:15):
I need to, like, come up withthe plan.
I needed to do the analysis.
I need to do that so that I canavoid the the scariness of what
happens when I just ask for itsimply because I want it, the
scariness of potentialdisconnection.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
I think so, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Is there anything that you would add to that?
I hear you saying I think so.
I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
No, I was just thinking like I guess that's
also like both external of whatother people say what about this
relationship that's going toend?
Because I brought this up and Iwas thinking probably there's
some like internal relationshippart too, cause I was even
thinking of like, yeah, againwhen I went to order Uber eats
first, it's like, okay, do youneed to do you have other food?
Okay, is there even anythingyou want?
(37:05):
Okay, out of these.
Like what do you want?
And I think again, again thatfeeling of like listen, man, I
just wanted to order like ramen.
I just it's like, okay, butlisten, there's a two for one
for the pizzas and you reallylike this pizza.
But also this is gonna take it.
So I think, like again, there'sno external party involved
there, it's like just me tryingto order food in one way or
another.
(37:25):
Yeah, and that still comes upof like oh, but justify, justify
, find the reason.
You can't just like want theramen.
You need to make sure it's thebest thing you actually want to
get.
Yeah, like the, what is it?
Uh, the like variables areundefined.
We don't know what makes it thebest, but you just need to.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
You just need to make sure it is the best right,
right, because if you don't,then you're going to have to
feel something.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
What's that Regret?
Or just being cut off fromyourself?
What's the thing?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
What is it?
Something like the area it's inis like disappointed,
dismissive sort of like oh, ofcourse you didn't think it
through, you just picked whatyou wanted, yeah, and here we
are like that sort of feeling Idon't know what the word for
that is Like you were lazy, youdidn't think about it and you
(38:35):
ended up here.
Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Sounds like shame to me.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, I guess so, which feels weird to me, but
also feels right.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
What feels weird to you about it to me, but also
feels right.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
What feels weird to you about it?
They're like what is shameabout?
What Like about getting somefood and then being like oh no,
I actually wish I had gottensomething else instead.
I was wrong about what I wanted, like just logically.
It's hard for me to connectthose dots.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Shame doesn't always operate in a logical way.
So what if you just simply satwith this sense that, oh,
there's some part of you that'sfeeling shame or could be
feeling shame around thesedecisions, without having to
figure it out?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
What would that part of you need?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
I think, to also just be accepted and acknowledged,
cause I feel like there's nevera time where I'm like, hey, cool
, you're here.
It either makes me more like,okay, I need to analyze more,
you're right, I need to figurethis out.
Yeah, be like why are you here?
Just let it, either makes memore like, okay, I need to
analyze more.
You're right I need to figurethis out.
Yeah, be like, why are you here?
Just let me eat my food, justlet me pick the food that I want
.
This sucks, but there's neverlike.
Oh okay, cool, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
All that analysis is another form of avoidance.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
But like productive avoidance.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Oh, yeah, on, but yeah, no, totally.
I hear you.
So, yes, very much.
So what happens if you just dothat right now?
There's this part of you thatfeels that you were just saying
just acknowledging it it feelslike immediately lighter.
Great, yeah, yeah I'll justoffer something while you're in
(40:34):
this space.
Just see what happens if youwelcome this part of you from
your heart.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Hmm, yeah, it feels like a lot more relaxed, almost
collaborative, versus like getout of here, no, I can't believe
you're here again.
It's like, oh hey yeah coolwelcome, nice to see you yeah
and it just like creates less orit releases some of the tension
around, like no, leave me alone, no, just let me make this
decision right.
It's like creates less or itreleases some of the tension
(41:32):
around, like no, leave me alone,no, just let me make this
decision Right.
It's like, oh, there's room forall of us here, cool.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah, I just want to point out that earlier in the
beginning of this, as you weredescribing the tension, that
felt like a lot of this internalfighting happening, and now you
just seem way more like a, likea host who's just welcoming
their guests into the house.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
And I think that's a lot more what it feels like yeah
, it just feels like roomier.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah, so what's it like for you just to be in this
space right now, noticing thatyeah?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
I think for one second it's really nice.
And then second 1.1, I'm likecool, so have we fixed it, can
we go?
Can we go back to like can Ijust do the things now?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
yeah um so that part gets to be here too yeah, I'm
(43:01):
just laughing.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
So I was thinking of like my dog again, when I tell
her sit and she'll do it for onesecond, then she'll pop up and
she'll be like I did it, we'redone, we're done, we did the
thing.
Yeah, that's like no, no's not,it's not like a check box.
To be like yes, complete, nowgive me the treat.
Yeah, no, we got to stay here.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
And is your dog better or worse at that right
now than six months ago?
Speaker 2 (43:26):
She's gotten better.
She's gotten better.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, probably because you've been insistent on
just the practice.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yes, yeah, now she does it by herself sometimes.
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, amazing.
It's totally normal for thehabitual reaction to pop right
back up.
You get a glimpse at somethingdifferent and then it's like
well, hold on, I've beenspending years, decades,
whatever, like reacting to theworld in a completely different
(44:02):
way, the one that's veryfamiliar to me.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
So of course you do something a little bit different
from the norm, you can get allsorts of parts of your system.
That's just going to be likewait a second, hold on, let's
keep doing the thing we keepdoing.
But what would happen if eachday had like 1% more of just
(44:33):
this roominess, the spaciousnessof just welcoming what's
happening for you?
Speaker 2 (44:40):
yeah, I think, even like, given where we started, it
makes me feel like, oh, there'sno, it's not that it's right to
be on one spectrum or the other, it's that it feels like there
will be room to make the choiceas needed.
So it's like cool.
You know what?
This job that came my way doesseem awesome.
I don't really want to look forother stuff.
I'm good to just go here andthen other times it'll be like I
(45:03):
don't want to just fly intothis.
I really feel like I need tomaybe push myself a little bit
or just compare a few otheroptions, because I'm not really
convinced on what I see in frontof me.
Yeah, and I think being atchoice, that's not like I don't
know, super reactive or whereyou're like oh God, I have to.
(45:25):
This is the only no, you suckif you don't do it this way, if
you can just be like ah, I thinkfor this job, this tool makes
sense.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
I think that's what it would allow.
Yeah, and I also just noticedthat that you in the first part
of that example, you're justlike, oh, I don't think I want
this thing.
And then, when you were gettinga little bit more of that like
reactiveness, like oh, I have todo this thing excuse me totally
where it's like.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
It's not about what is right to me or this moment,
it's just what is the way thisneeds to be done.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
That is objectively correct and will let me like
reference it in the future if Iever need to provide proof, yeah
, of this option.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Yeah, yeah, which, as I think you're probably seeing,
that's not anything objective.
It's simply just a defensemechanism against getting
rejected or being wrong, or eventheir own internal critical
stuff yeah yeah, and I think youreally nailed it.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Where, like shame, is the emotion that comes up of
like, oh god, I made a wrongchoice and I can't even point to
any reason why I did that.
I just gotta own that.
Yeah, yeah, oh no.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So, as we start to wrap this, Ijust want to come back to you,
nina, and ask what are younoticing most from the session?
What are we?
You know what we've beenexploring?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
One.
I think the idea of shame issuper interesting and one I've
never really related to, but Iguess it's like I've just never
put the pieces in the rightorder for me to see it or feel
it.
So when I think that'sinteresting and to be like, oh,
where else can I catch thatcoming up, or can I see that
when I start to go into thatpattern?
yeah because it's interesting tokind of see that as the
(47:19):
underpinning of why I go intoboth modes, um, and then I think
is always just the like slowingdown and seeing what is there
and accepting it for what it isand being like, okay, cool, I'm
feeling this specific way, oh,interesting.
And then I'm having a feelingabout the way that I'm feeling
about this.
Yeah, okay cool.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
Okay, everybody who's here like, come on in, let's
see.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Let's bring you all in, versus being like oh God, no
, oh no, we're here again.
Oh no, just let me order.
Oh no, yeah, that's really nice.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah, yeah.
I'll just say that I've heardshame described as really just
the cutting off of the bridge ofconnection.
It's just from a biologicalperspective.
It's some sense that it's likeoh, I am going to be cut off
(48:14):
from others because of who I am,and that is scary, that is
terrifying, right, literallyit's going to mean survival or
not.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
And the antidote, as it were, is just to come back
into connection, and what Iheard you say was just allowing
what's going on for you, ieconnecting with what's happening
for you, as opposed to pushingit out or analyzing it away.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Right, I really like that reflection yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
I hope it's useful.
Thank reflection.
Yeah, I hope it's useful.
Thank you, awesome.
Well, nina, it's been a realpleasure spending this time with
you today as always.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Brian, thank you same .
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Yeah, awesome.
All right, I'll speak to yousoon.
Take care, sounds good.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Bye.
Nina's session took us deepinto the heart of a dilemma many
high achievers grapple with thetension between striving for
success and embracing life'snatural flow.
At first glance, nina'stendency to meticulously analyze
every decision seemed like astrength, but as we peeled back
the layers, we uncovered adeeper truth.
This habit wasn't just aboutmaking optimal choices.
It was a clever disguise forfear and self-doubt.
(49:28):
The breakthrough came when Ninadared to sit with her
discomfort.
By acknowledging her fearsinstead of burying them under a
mountain of analysis, sheunlocked a new level of
self-awareness.
This shift allowed her to tapinto her authentic desires and
make decisions from a place ofclarity rather than anxiety.
Nina's journey reminds us thattrue growth often comes from
unexpected places.
(49:48):
It's not always about pushingharder or thinking more.
Sometimes it's about having thecourage to pause, to feel, to
embrace all aspects of ourexperience, even the ones we'd
rather ignore.
For the founders and leaderslistening, this insight could be
game changing.
In a world that often equatessuccess with relentless forward
motion, nina's story offers adifferent perspective.
What if your next bigbreakthrough isn't hiding in
(50:10):
another late night strategysession, but the quiet moments
of self-acceptance as younavigate your own path this week
?
Consider this?
Where might you benefit fromloosening your grip?
What insights might emerge ifyou allow yourself to experience
your full range of emotions andthoughts without immediately
jumping to problem solving mode?
Thank you for listening to SlowDown, to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please rate it in your favorite
(50:32):
podcasting app.
If you are a founder who wantsto reach the next level through
coaching, or if you'd like tocome on the show, please contact
me at dashingleadershipcom.
Welcome to Slow Down to Speed Up, where we have real
one-time coaching sessions withstartup founders working through
the challenges of leadership.
I'm your host and executivecoach, brian Wang.
Today in the show we have NinaYordanova, a driven startup
leader who's grappling with thedilemma many high achievers face
how do you balance the urge toconstantly push forward with the
desire to simply enjoy life asit unfolds?
(00:20):
It's a tension that can leaveeven the most successful
individuals feeling conflictedand unsure as it unfolds.
It's a tension that can leaveeven the most successful
individuals feeling conflictedand unsure.
Nina comes to the sessiontrying to figure out why she
feels compelled to analyze andjustify every single one of her
decisions.
This can be a reallyuncomfortable topic to explore,
because it forces us to confrontthe contradictions within
ourselves.
On one hand, we have this driveto achieve and excel, pushing
us to always do more.
On the other, there's a part ofus that yearns for peace,
(00:43):
contentment and the simple joyof being present.
When these two sides are atodds, it can feel like we're at
war with ourselves, leading to adeep sense of unease and
self-doubt.
But here's the thing what ifslowing down could actually help
us speed up?
What if creating space for allof our experiences, even the
uncomfortable ones, can lead tomore authentic and effective
living.
In this session, nina uncoverssome surprising insights about
(01:06):
shame, fear and the power ofself-acceptance.
She discovers that sometimesthe path to growth isn't about
pushing harder, but rather it'sabout welcoming all parts of
ourselves.
By the end of our session, ninagains a new perspective on
decision-making and finds somepractical steps to navigate this
internal tension in her lifeand leadership.
If you've ever felt tornbetween conflicting parts of
(01:28):
yourself or struggled to findbalance in your own life, this
episode might just offer theinsights you've been looking for
.
Let's tune in and see what thisjourney takes us Enjoy.
Hey, nina, it's so great to seeyou.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Brian, so good to see you too.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Absolutely.
I'm super pumped to be herewith you and you know we spoke a
little bit about coming on hereand having a session, and so
we're just going to kick it off.
I'm going to ask you what arewe here for?
What are we?
What are we getting?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
into.
We're going to get intosomething I've been thinking
about for a little while, whichis, I think, just this tension
between how do you kind of feellike you're making the most out
of your life and then also, howdo you relax into whatever is
happening and just to like fleshthat out a little bit more.
(02:14):
I feel like, honestly, I'mhappiest when opportunities come
to me and I can just be like,yeah, this looks great, awesome,
I'll do it.
But I feel like if I'm justwaiting for external things to
happen, I'm like, but what if?
Does that mean I'm not applyingmyself?
Does not mean I'm not reallylike pushing myself to make the
most of opportunities?
Does that mean I'm justsettling for whatever's coming
to me?
And it almost feels like Ishould be working really hard,
(02:39):
as hard as I can.
And if I'm not, then it's like,oh well, you're not really
making the most of theopportunities you have, you're
not really going for what youwant, you're just settling for
what's coming to you.
Yeah, and just trying to figureout, like, how do you navigate
these two things that seem veryat odds with each other.
Like, if I push really hard,I'm not super happy.
If I don't push, I feel yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
So there's just off the bat.
You're bringing up this tension, where you seem to have
identified this idea that inorder to feel happy or satisfied
, I have to push.
There's this thing aroundmaking sure I live my life, uh,
(03:24):
like maximizing my potential.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yes, yes, totally.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Um, but you also notice it sounds like that when
you do that, there comes a pointwhere that actually starts to
have a negative effect on justquality of life, enjoyment, et
cetera.
But if you, it's almost like aspectrum is what I'm hearing
from the get-go it's like.
But if you're relaxing too much, then there's a sense of like
(03:49):
oh, I'm missing out, oh, I'mmissing out on my potential, and
so it sounds like right now,where you are, is you're like
how do I navigate?
That is the word you use.
I think how do I navigate thator how do I balance?
That is is kind of the highlevel of what I'm hearing from
you.
Yeah, I suspect that this isnot a new dynamic for you.
(04:09):
So tell me a little bit abouthow this tension has gone for
you historically.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, so I think it's only new in the sense that like
I can put more words to it andI can see it when it happens,
versus just like constantlybeing in it, because I think, in
terms of being in it, it's likea lifelong thing, um, and I'd
say I started very much on theend of, like you have to push
yourself as hard as possible.
You have to go for everyopportunity, not just like put
yourself in the ring, but pushto be at the very top.
(04:38):
Um, and that's even like youknow, applying for university,
like I applied for the bestbusiness school I could find and
the best theater school.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's like the achiever in you.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Totally, totally.
And I think what you said aboutmaximizing your potential, like
there's a lot of things tiedinto that word.
Yeah, of like wanting to be thebest, wanting to achieve,
wanting to do everything.
And it's funny like a few weeksago I was talking to Matt the
Matt that you introduced me to,like the coach that I've been
working with, and I was like Idon't know if complaining was
(05:11):
the right word, but I was like,oh, you know, I'm like doing
coaching and I'm also doing thispart-time, like consulting work
with a friend, and I'm alsodoing these like photo shoots
with I used to be an actor andnow I'm doing modeling, I guess,
um, and I'm also like writingmy newsletter and I'm also
playing beach volleyball threetimes a week and I'm also
playing dungeons in a dragon andI'm doing this and this and
this and this and this and doyou have to be the best at all
(05:32):
those things, just curious Iguess in that way I'd say, man,
each one of those is like athing into, into and of itself,
yeah, but I think in that I wasmore looking at it like I'm
making the most of my summer.
Every hour I have somethinggoing on there is no hour that I
am wasting.
But when I looked at that I waslike that is so much like that's
(05:54):
not.
When I look at my days, I'm notnecessarily like, oh my God,
I'm so excited to wake up to 18different things to do from
today into eternity.
From today into eternity.
Yeah, oh, wow, okay.
It feels like a really big loadto carry, but look, it's all
fun.
Look at you getting to developall these different skills and
do all these fun things.
That's so great.
(06:14):
So I feel like that's alreadyone thing.
Where I really really see it isjust this idea of even how do I
spend my time.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
One of the things I noticed in just your, your
reflection just now is that yourvoice changes.
When you talk about this,you're like, look at me, I'm
making the most out of my summer.
Or like, oh, I guess I'm doingall this.
Da, da, da, like I'm curious,what's happening for you.
Maybe more specifically, like,who are you speaking to when
(06:40):
you're in that voice?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
you're in that voice.
So I think part of it is justlike me wanting to perform and
show the difference between thetwo sides Sure.
And then I think there's also abit of an association of like
look it takes, you gotta bestrong to do all these different
things, but it's good for you.
That is the thing that will.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
There it is again.
Yeah, tell me about, like,who's speaking there?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I think who's speaking is the the thing that I
think, how do I put it?
Like that sounds right, butthat I don't feel is right and
so it's like listen.
Realistically speaking, itmakes sense that you do all
these things.
Look at the benefits that willcome from it.
But then if I speak from my ownperspective, I'm like I don't
(07:30):
love this situation.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I don't know if I love this.
Okay, so there's like some partof you that's saying,
essentially saying you should bedoing this and almost like
trying to sell the benefits toyou, and then you're like
hearing it almost skeptically.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I think so and of fits to you.
And then you're like hearing italmost skeptically, I think so,
and like I can't even reallyown that voice.
Because when I go in the otherdirection, if I'm like, okay,
cool, we'll drop eight of thesethings, just do two of them,
then it's back to like, ohreally, you're just not going to
do anything with your time,really, you're just going to
leave it wide open and see whatdrops in and hopefully it's
going to be good.
Yeah, that's how you're goingto live your life.
So it's like a flip alwayscomes, no matter which end of
that spectrum I'm leaning into.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, so there's like this task manager that is
saying fill your days and it'sgoing to be great and, come on,
you know like this is going tomake your like each and every
moment like amazing and youought to love this.
You should love this.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Is that the same?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
voice that's like, like, what are you doing when
you like, start to drop somethings from the list I think so,
and I think it takes on like adifferent flavor, let's say like
a different tone.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
But I think the underlying thing of like, why
are you doing it like this?
Speaker 1 (08:38):
this isn't the right approach yeah, for those who are
listening, nina is like jabbingher finger at the camera.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Just like huh, okay, okay.
So let me ask you this question.
Um, let's just pretend for amoment that this voice was not
present whatsoever in yourexperience.
It wasn't trying to cajole youor convince you to do anything.
(09:05):
It wasn't like poking at youand criticizing you when it
noticed that you were relaxing.
What would life be like in thatmovie?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
It's so interesting because, like, as you started to
talk, I started to imagine itand I think there was like a
quarter of a millisecond wherethat thought existed.
And I think there was like aquarter of a millisecond where
that thought existed and thenimmediately, like it's like the,
the voice, just holds handswith them.
It's like no, I'm here, hey,I'm still here.
Yeah, you're like attached.
Like I can't imagine a lifethat's just me doing what I want
(09:40):
, or relaxed.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, it sounds like that this part of you has been
around for a long time andreally is working hard to like
do its job.
It's not wanting at all to letyou even entertain the idea of
it not being here.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, cause my first thought was like, oh my God, I
could just like accept that Iwant to do things that come to
me, versus putting in a ton ofeffort to like source
opportunities or I don't know,like even thinking about work
the two jobs that I've had, likequote, unquote jobs, let's say
in the tech industry yeah um,both of them came to me by
(10:17):
somebody else, essentiallyreaching out and being like hey,
we have a role, I think you'dbe a good fit, are you
interested?
and I said yes to bothopportunities and like I'm so
happy with doing that.
But I think there's a partthat's like well, should you be
looking more, should you be liketrying to find other options
that then you can compare andthen you can see that you've
actually made the right decisionversus just something that fell
.
So yeah, when I imagine like oh, what would life without that
(10:42):
voice look?
Like I'm like no-transcriptanalysis, I've decided these are
(11:15):
the truly the objectively bestones.
Like I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, cause that sounds exhausting, by the
way.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yes, which is also a thing I love to do.
I love to do this like let meUber Eats, let me open eight
carts of different food optionsand then I'll narrow them down
and then I'll cross, compare andthen I'll see, and at the end
of 40 minutes I'll close all thecarts because I'm exhausted and
I don't want to order any ofthe things.
So maybe that's like actuallykind of at the core of what I'm
saying is like there.
(11:45):
What I'm saying is like there'sthis like thing where you're
really wanting to make sure youland on the right decision.
Yes, yes, and I feel like okay,if I'm not running this wild
analysis and I'm just acceptingthe first thing that seems like
interesting.
Then there's a part of methat's like oh God, oh God, what
are you missing out on?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Oh God yeah, and what's the feeling underneath
that?
Like I hear there's like thiswhole dynamic where it's like I
have to compare, I have tooptimize, and the way I hear
that like I have to employ thatstrategy so that I don't have to
feel something in particularthat's like that.
(12:24):
Oh God, like what's that?
I want to invite you just toslow down for a moment.
I see you looking up.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I think one thing came immediately.
I'm just trying to see ifthat's actually.
Ah, I'm running an analysis tosee if anything else comes up
and if that is truly the truestthing.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I want to invite you to drop the analysis for a
moment and just see what younotice in your body.
We I want to invite you to dropthe analysis for a moment and
just see what you notice in yourbody.
We were just having thisconversation before the call
started.
Yeah, so just slow down and seewhat you notice.
That's there.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
I think two things come up sort of at the same time
, where one is like a lot ofjust ease and relaxation and joy
of like, great, I can just dothis thing, awesome, let's keep
moving forward.
And then, almost at the sametime it's like, oh god, but what
if I'm wrong?
And then I have no way todefend the choice that I made
because I can't be like, well,listen, I compared the in-ear
(13:25):
headphones and I compared thewireless and, honestly, the
extra cost of $200 didn't reallyseem like it was worth it.
And then, you know, if I runthat analysis, I feel like I
have reasons to justify thechoices that I made.
So if I don't know externalsomebody or if I had to be like,
well, why did you make thiswrong choice, I can defend it
and justify it.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Okay.
So what I hear in that is thatthere's some sense that if I
don't run the analysis, thenthere will be some moment where
I have to defend my choice tosomebody, and if I haven't done
that, then I can't defend it.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
And then, if I can't defend this thing that I
actually chose, what's thefeeling there?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I actually chose.
What's the feeling there?
I think definitely like scary,naked, vulnerable, like like
exposed sort of.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
This.
Tell me if this lands.
But what I'm hearing in that is, there's something really scary
and vulnerable about simplyowning the thing that you want,
owning your desire, even if it'sjust like I want this head,
this set of headphones.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
What's what's coming up for you as I say that.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
I think just one part is just surprised, that that's
the core of what it is.
And then the second part iseven like oh cool if I follow
that train of thought.
Like what if I do just say,yeah, I want it because I want
it?
There's no further supportingevidence to say this is the
right thing to want, or to likejustify it.
(15:18):
It's just I want it becausethat's what's yeah I don't know
what I want.
I feel like I can't even like gofurther than that.
I just stopped there and I'mlike yeah ah, what is that
allowed?
What?
What if somebody says no?
Or what if that's not right?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
yeah.
So there's like some sense oflike I just what I watched
happen is you're getting intouch with a sense of authentic
desire, like I want this thing.
That's good enough reason forwanting it, yeah.
And then it's like you hit thismoment where, like, but wait,
what is that okay?
Like there was some permissionthat seemed to be like that you
(16:02):
were seeking.
Like there was some permissionthat seemed to be like that you
were seeking.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
It's even like uh, I have a dog and if there's a
balcony and it's high up, she'lljust like she loves being
outside.
But she'll just sort of stickher head right at the edge and
then she'll like with one paw,really gently, like not even
touch the balcony floor, andthen she'll just pull it in and
be like, but she won't gooutside.
(16:28):
And so it feels sort of thesame where I'm like like
sticking my head out a littlebit, I'm like, oh, you can't,
what happens if you just walkout of the store?
Yeah, saying yeah, I just wantit, because I want it.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
They do say that peasant owners are alike, you
know, so it sounds like you guysshare that in common.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
it sounds like you guys share that in common and I
think, like, if I bring it backto the first thing that I
brought in, which is you knowwhat is this?
this tension between doing allthe things that I think I should
be doing as well as I can andtrying to really push and
analyze, versus just like doingthe things that come to me and
that feels so easy and justletting life unfold yeah I think
(17:03):
I can map those like prettyclosely of oh what if I just did
the things that I wanted, yeah,and trusted that that was
enough, without needing to proveor justify yeah versus oh, but
you need to like, you're justallowed to leave yourself alone
and want what you want, butwhere does that take you?
Speaker 1 (17:23):
And you'd also have to feel something scary around.
It is what it seems to me.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yes, yeah, yeah, cause again, when I picture like
, okay, what if you're allowedto want what you want, I just
feel like sort of the feararising and I'm like, oh God,
what do you do with that?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
What if you just allowed it to be here right now?
Speaker 2 (17:51):
No need to resist it or push it away hmm, it's like a
(18:14):
mix of enticing and exciting ina mix of like you're telling me
to go out in like a hail ofarrows, wearing absolutely
nothing and just being like,yeah, I'm sure this is totally
fine.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Like it just seems like pretty certain that it's
going to be a bad time.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
So I wonder if we can just play with this for a
second.
So fear is generally going tobe our brain's way of predicting
something.
It's predicting something'sgoing to happen, and part of
what makes fear and anxiety likereally tricky is that sometimes
(18:55):
the thing that is predicting isreally vague.
So it's it's kind of vaguenessis part of what gives it its
power, right, because we don'treally like if it's so vague,
then it could be anything.
Right, better, better, better.
Lock myself up a little bit.
So I wonder if, if you were tospend a little bit of um, a
(19:17):
moment, just to see if you couldget more specific, like you
mentioned, like there's a hailof arrows there.
What is it that your system ispredicting will happen when
you're just like fully allowingyourself to want what you want
and enjoy that?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I think.
So two things come upimmediately.
One is like what if I hear?
No, and then that's like ohwell, if I had arguments, I
could like justify, or I couldconvince, or I could, you know,
lay out an argument for why thisthing makes sense, Whereas if
it's just oh, I want it, becauseI want it.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
And then someone says no, it's like oh, that feels
like suddenly a lot morepersonal, Cool, and I think
that's scary.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
All right, so we we're gonna probably come back
to that.
And what's the second thingthat came up?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I think then the second thing is, if I, let's say
, do something wrong or make thewrong choice, then it's like
wow, you're really stupid, likeyou just thought that was the
way to go, why oh, you don'tknow why, you just did it.
Cool, you didn't stop to thinkabout that, you didn't stop to
consider other options.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Like.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I think that question is very like.
I always want to be preparedfor that and be like.
No, I considered these are thethings.
This is the Excel spreadsheetthat I cross referenced.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Right, yeah, which we touched on.
So you mentioned that there'slike simply just somebody saying
no to you.
Like there's a moment you goout in the world you ask for
something that you want.
That's generally how it works.
Like you want something you can, often you'll have to ask
somebody for it.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
And they might say no .
And then what you described waslike, oh, like instantly, your
arguments need to come.
You know, come to the frontline there.
Like no, no, let me convinceyou.
So there's this experience ofreceiving a no that feels you
said personal.
It's like really, really scaryin some way there.
And then there was like thisother thing that sounded like
(21:17):
going back to this criticalvoice.
It's like, oh, now thiscritical voice is going to be
beating me up for getting itwrong and like how could you do
this?
And like why didn't you thinkof this, this and this and this
and this, and it's, it's sort ofum, kind of bullying you is is
a bit of what I hear.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, it's funny, cause that's what it feels like,
although almost like I knowyou're just trying to make sure
I do the best thing and likeit's looking out for me, but
like in a very aggressiveoff-putting, shutting down way
right, yeah, yeah so in somesense like both of those.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
This might not make any sense, but in a a sense,
when I hear that those twothings, like the receiving, the
no and like the bullying, almostfeel like the same thing, but I
don't know if that's what'strue for you I'm curious Are
those the same thing or do theyfeel different?
And if they do feel different,which of those feels more
(22:23):
challenging for you?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, I want to say they feel different.
(22:47):
But let me just think on that alittle bit, Because I guess
they're also related.
Because when I think like oh,what if I just said no, or sorry
, like let me back up thecontext, I'm thinking is
(23:08):
somebody asked me out for dinnerto a specific place and in my
head I was like I don't want togo to that place, Like I like it
, but I don't want to go rightnow.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
And I was like, oh God, but I can't just say no
because I don't want to.
That's weird and immediatelylike.
Tied to that, thought I like,oh, I should offer different
options, I could look atdifferent things, or I should
say why I don't want to go therebecause I went recently and I
need to like, sort of.
So I feel like that analysisand options is also tied to like
so there's something around notjust saying.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
There's something around like just simply wanting
what you want and allowing thatto be the case, but also there's
something around like not beingable to say no, like just not
letting it be enough that youdon't want something and for you
just to say no to something Ithink so.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Both like both to say no and to say yes to things
where it's an unknown.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah, I feel like I just want reasons to fall back
on for everything for yeses, fornos, for maybes, for picking
between things.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, as I zoom out, it's like, oh, you're, you're,
you're, you're trying to likerest, control of the future.
I wanted to stay in control of,like, what might happen
whenever you want something ordon't want something, because
(24:38):
it's scary to not know what'sgoing to happen when you respond
to the world in some way likeyes or no and I feel like to not
have control over the responseas well yeah it feels like to me
, like building a building withno foundation and you're like
this could any first wind wouldknock this thing down?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
this is not built in a way that's stable at all, and
I think that's very scary to belike.
Oh, I have no nothing else tosay except no, I just want this.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Can we give that a try right here?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, in what way?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Like I'm noticing already that there's like
something coming up for you,this, this sense of like what
might happen, like there's likeI don't know what's about to
happen.
Um, so I want to see if I can,let's try this.
(25:33):
What if you were to ask me todo something right here and you
have no idea how I'm going torespond, and it could just be
like anything like, like youknow, you could just ask me to
like go blink my eyes threetimes or something.
It doesn't, you know whatever.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
But here's the thing it has to be something you
genuinely want me to do, okay.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Okay, could you take your headphones off for a sec
(26:11):
and just like, must hair alittle bit like run hands
through hair.
Sure, beautiful, also funny,because the camera froze for
half of that.
I saw it happening.
I saw it happening.
All right, let's try again.
Something else Beautiful, alsofunny, because the camera froze
for half of that.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
It'll show up.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I saw it happening.
I saw it happening.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
All right, let's try again Something else oh no.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Could you tell me the name of the city you were born
in?
Speaker 1 (26:44):
No.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Okay, could you move the mic one inch to the left?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
No.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
What's allowing you to do this?
Right now?
You're like.
You don't seem to be having aproblem doing this.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
I think, because it's Hmm, hmm.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Maybe because it's so like small and inconsequential.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
okay, yeah, that the want is more, but I don't like,
as'm saying this, I just don'tknow if this would translate to
outside of the session, likeeven if I was with a friend and
there was something small and aconsequential, like oh, can we
switch what sides of the roadwe're walking on, or I don't
know whatever.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
So maybe we can come up with a scenario that feels a
little riskier.
How about that?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Hmm, and I will add, just in case this is interesting
, like one of the things Ithought of is like oh, I wonder
if you could disconnect the wirefrom the headphones.
Then I was like oh, I don'tknow if that messes up the audio
.
I don't want to ask to do that,because then what if that
messes up the recording, or whenyou get it back?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
no, I don't like I don't want to mess things up
totally, totally so I was like Ijust don't want to.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I'm not Totally, totally so I was like I just
don't want to.
I'm not going to ask that.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Is that the fear that by asking for what you want or
saying no, you'll mess things up?
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I think for sure.
I don't know if that's all ofit, but for sure that's a big
part yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
And if you mess things up, what will happen?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Hmm, I think anything between one, like losing
respect in that person's eyes,or like losing care, losing
regard, whatever, like justthere being suddenly a rift,
yeah, all the way to like therelationship ending.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
That sounds really risky.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, and I think that's like there's no like, oh
no, it's going to be totallyfine.
I'm like it starts with eitherthere's a rift created and that
ends with the relationshipending, and that's like the
spectrum we play in as soon asyou mess things up.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, so let me just reflect that back.
It sounds like in some waymaybe many ways you've learned
that asking for what you wantmeans we talked about, like,
what the brain's predicting.
The brain's going to predictthat the relationship is now
severed.
(29:45):
I've lost connection.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
I think so Test it out, see what that feels like in
your body.
As I'm saying that If Nina goesout in the world, she lets go
of control.
She says here's the thing Iwant you ask for it.
There's like some sense thatuh-oh, disconnection cut off.
(30:12):
Is that what you're noticing?
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Totally and it feels like it's rising up like in the
body, in the middle part, sortof, and then it just hits a
point around my collarbones andit's like, no, listen, it's not
worth it.
You don't really want this.
You want the relationship more.
You want this old, okay, cool.
So then just leave this thing.
Who cares about this thing thatyou want, cool, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
So what if you were just to put all your focus on
that right now, this feelingthat is rising, See if you can
connect further to that.
It sounds like some part ofit's trying to protect you.
Avoid the disconnection.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Just ask it what does it need from you?
Right now it's interestingbecause it's almost like a
little microcosm or a fractalwhere it's like I guess part of
my fear is ooh, if I share whatI really want, then I can be
rejected on that thing that Ireally want.
So not only will someone seemore of me, but they'll say no.
(31:19):
And so when I look at this partinside and I'm like what do you
want?
It's like fuck, sorry, f you,I'm not going to tell you what I
want.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I was like I'm not going to tell you what I want,
cause what if you don't give mewhat I want?
And then I end up like screwed,I'm not going to do that.
So it's interesting that I seelike that reflected internally,
which is sort of what I feelexternally as well.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, not only might I be rejected, but I might be
rejected for who I am in thatdesire this person sees me now.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
And it's like they're not just rejecting my request,
they're rejecting me like themore authentic, honest me.
Yes, I just want to check thatout and see if that's kind of
how it feels.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, and I find it really interesting that, like
again, when I try and reflect onthat, it's like this inner part
is also like no, I'm not goingto share that with you.
You can't know that part of me,because then what if you say no
and then you know what I want,but you're also not giving it to
me?
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I will not stand for that what do you want to say to
this part, as, just as we'rehearing it, what do you want to
say to this part just as we'rehearing it.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Hmm, you know what I think the only thing I'd want to
(33:14):
say is yeah, I know that'sreally scary to do that and I
don't think I'd want to push orbe like no, you should, It'll be
totally fine.
Trust me, We'll figure it.
Like no, I just.
Yeah, I know it's hard.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Just give it a try, Just offer that, exactly that to
(34:05):
this part of you right now.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
hmm, yeah, it just feels like very defensive.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, I just want to make a suggestion then.
Yeah, just to let it know thatyou see its defensiveness and
that you don't need it to changein any way.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, I think that helps a little.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
What do you notice?
How does it respond?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I think it's just like a little calmer and like
less reactive.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
So, rather than being like fully activated, like this
, it's just a little bit morelike okay, I'm here, I'm having
feelings, I'm having thoughts,but it's not like so aggressive,
I guess.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, and if you go back to that sense that you have
, it's just whatever impulse youhave around, like the thing
that you're wanting, anythingthat you're wanting, whether
it's asking for something sothat you might get it or to say
no to something.
How is that feeling right now?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
I think still pretty scary, but like less activated
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, that makes sense.
You've been kind of in thishabit, it sounds like, of
noticing that you want somethingand maybe the impulse arises to
pursue it, ask for it, but thenthey're just like wait, no,
hold on.
I can't like let, I can't jumpright to that.
(36:15):
I need to, like, come up withthe plan.
I needed to do the analysis.
I need to do that so that I canavoid the the scariness of what
happens when I just ask for itsimply because I want it, the
scariness of potentialdisconnection.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
I think so, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Is there anything that you would add to that?
I hear you saying I think so.
I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
No, I was just thinking like I guess that's
also like both external of whatother people say what about this
relationship that's going toend?
Because I brought this up and Iwas thinking probably there's
some like internal relationshippart too, cause I was even
thinking of like, yeah, againwhen I went to order Uber eats
first, it's like, okay, do youneed to do you have other food?
Okay, is there even anythingyou want?
(37:05):
Okay, out of these.
Like what do you want?
And I think again, again thatfeeling of like listen, man, I
just wanted to order like ramen.
I just it's like, okay, butlisten, there's a two for one
for the pizzas and you reallylike this pizza.
But also this is gonna take it.
So I think, like again, there'sno external party involved
there, it's like just me tryingto order food in one way or
another.
(37:25):
Yeah, and that still comes upof like oh, but justify, justify
, find the reason.
You can't just like want theramen.
You need to make sure it's thebest thing you actually want to
get.
Yeah, like the, what is it?
Uh, the like variables areundefined.
We don't know what makes it thebest, but you just need to.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
You just need to make sure it is the best right,
right, because if you don't,then you're going to have to
feel something.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
What's that Regret?
Or just being cut off fromyourself?
What's the thing?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
What is it?
Something like the area it's inis like disappointed,
dismissive sort of like oh, ofcourse you didn't think it
through, you just picked whatyou wanted, yeah, and here we
are like that sort of feeling Idon't know what the word for
that is Like you were lazy, youdidn't think about it and you
(38:35):
ended up here.
Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Sounds like shame to me.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, I guess so, which feels weird to me, but
also feels right.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
What feels weird to you about it to me, but also
feels right.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
What feels weird to you about it?
They're like what is shameabout?
What Like about getting somefood and then being like oh no,
I actually wish I had gottensomething else instead.
I was wrong about what I wanted, like just logically.
It's hard for me to connectthose dots.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Shame doesn't always operate in a logical way.
So what if you just simply satwith this sense that, oh,
there's some part of you that'sfeeling shame or could be
feeling shame around thesedecisions, without having to
figure it out?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
What would that part of you need?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
I think, to also just be accepted and acknowledged,
cause I feel like there's nevera time where I'm like, hey, cool
, you're here.
It either makes me more like,okay, I need to analyze more,
you're right, I need to figurethis out.
Yeah, be like why are you here?
Just let it, either makes memore like, okay, I need to
analyze more.
You're right I need to figurethis out.
Yeah, be like, why are you here?
Just let me eat my food, justlet me pick the food that I want
.
This sucks, but there's neverlike.
Oh okay, cool, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
All that analysis is another form of avoidance.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
But like productive avoidance.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Oh, yeah, on, but yeah, no, totally.
I hear you.
So, yes, very much.
So what happens if you just dothat right now?
There's this part of you thatfeels that you were just saying
just acknowledging it it feelslike immediately lighter.
Great, yeah, yeah I'll justoffer something while you're in
(40:34):
this space.
Just see what happens if youwelcome this part of you from
your heart.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Hmm, yeah, it feels like a lot more relaxed, almost
collaborative, versus like getout of here, no, I can't believe
you're here again.
It's like, oh hey yeah coolwelcome, nice to see you yeah
and it just like creates less orit releases some of the tension
around, like no, leave me alone, no, just let me make this
decision right.
It's like creates less or itreleases some of the tension
(41:32):
around, like no, leave me alone,no, just let me make this
decision Right.
It's like, oh, there's room forall of us here, cool.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah, I just want to point out that earlier in the
beginning of this, as you weredescribing the tension, that
felt like a lot of this internalfighting happening, and now you
just seem way more like a, likea host who's just welcoming
their guests into the house.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
And I think that's a lot more what it feels like yeah
, it just feels like roomier.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah, so what's it like for you just to be in this
space right now, noticing thatyeah?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
I think for one second it's really nice.
And then second 1.1, I'm likecool, so have we fixed it, can
we go?
Can we go back to like can Ijust do the things now?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
yeah um so that part gets to be here too yeah, I'm
(43:01):
just laughing.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
So I was thinking of like my dog again, when I tell
her sit and she'll do it for onesecond, then she'll pop up and
she'll be like I did it, we'redone, we're done, we did the
thing.
Yeah, that's like no, no's not,it's not like a check box.
To be like yes, complete, nowgive me the treat.
Yeah, no, we got to stay here.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
And is your dog better or worse at that right
now than six months ago?
Speaker 2 (43:26):
She's gotten better.
She's gotten better.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, probably because you've been insistent on
just the practice.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yes, yeah, now she does it by herself sometimes.
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, amazing.
It's totally normal for thehabitual reaction to pop right
back up.
You get a glimpse at somethingdifferent and then it's like
well, hold on, I've beenspending years, decades,
whatever, like reacting to theworld in a completely different
(44:02):
way, the one that's veryfamiliar to me.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
So of course you do something a little bit different
from the norm, you can get allsorts of parts of your system.
That's just going to be likewait a second, hold on, let's
keep doing the thing we keepdoing.
But what would happen if eachday had like 1% more of just
(44:33):
this roominess, the spaciousnessof just welcoming what's
happening for you?
Speaker 2 (44:40):
yeah, I think, even like, given where we started, it
makes me feel like, oh, there'sno, it's not that it's right to
be on one spectrum or the other, it's that it feels like there
will be room to make the choiceas needed.
So it's like cool.
You know what?
This job that came my way doesseem awesome.
I don't really want to look forother stuff.
I'm good to just go here andthen other times it'll be like I
(45:03):
don't want to just fly intothis.
I really feel like I need tomaybe push myself a little bit
or just compare a few otheroptions, because I'm not really
convinced on what I see in frontof me.
Yeah, and I think being atchoice, that's not like I don't
know, super reactive or whereyou're like oh God, I have to.
(45:25):
This is the only no, you suckif you don't do it this way, if
you can just be like ah, I thinkfor this job, this tool makes
sense.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
I think that's what it would allow.
Yeah, and I also just noticedthat that you in the first part
of that example, you're justlike, oh, I don't think I want
this thing.
And then, when you were gettinga little bit more of that like
reactiveness, like oh, I have todo this thing excuse me totally
where it's like.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
It's not about what is right to me or this moment,
it's just what is the way thisneeds to be done.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
That is objectively correct and will let me like
reference it in the future if Iever need to provide proof, yeah
, of this option.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Yeah, yeah, which, as I think you're probably seeing,
that's not anything objective.
It's simply just a defensemechanism against getting
rejected or being wrong, or eventheir own internal critical
stuff yeah yeah, and I think youreally nailed it.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Where, like shame, is the emotion that comes up of
like, oh god, I made a wrongchoice and I can't even point to
any reason why I did that.
I just gotta own that.
Yeah, yeah, oh no.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So, as we start to wrap this, Ijust want to come back to you,
nina, and ask what are younoticing most from the session?
What are we?
You know what we've beenexploring?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
One.
I think the idea of shame issuper interesting and one I've
never really related to, but Iguess it's like I've just never
put the pieces in the rightorder for me to see it or feel
it.
So when I think that'sinteresting and to be like, oh,
where else can I catch thatcoming up, or can I see that
when I start to go into thatpattern?
yeah because it's interesting tokind of see that as the
(47:19):
underpinning of why I go intoboth modes, um, and then I think
is always just the like slowingdown and seeing what is there
and accepting it for what it isand being like, okay, cool, I'm
feeling this specific way, oh,interesting.
And then I'm having a feelingabout the way that I'm feeling
about this.
Yeah, okay cool.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
Okay, everybody who's here like, come on in, let's
see.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Let's bring you all in, versus being like oh God, no
, oh no, we're here again.
Oh no, just let me order.
Oh no, yeah, that's really nice.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah, yeah.
I'll just say that I've heardshame described as really just
the cutting off of the bridge ofconnection.
It's just from a biologicalperspective.
It's some sense that it's likeoh, I am going to be cut off
(48:14):
from others because of who I am,and that is scary, that is
terrifying, right, literallyit's going to mean survival or
not.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
And the antidote, as it were, is just to come back
into connection, and what Iheard you say was just allowing
what's going on for you, ieconnecting with what's happening
for you, as opposed to pushingit out or analyzing it away.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Right, I really like that reflection yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
I hope it's useful.
Thank reflection.
Yeah, I hope it's useful.
Thank you, awesome.
Well, nina, it's been a realpleasure spending this time with
you today as always.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Brian, thank you same .
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Yeah, awesome.
All right, I'll speak to yousoon.
Take care, sounds good.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Bye.
Nina's session took us deepinto the heart of a dilemma many
high achievers grapple with thetension between striving for
success and embracing life'snatural flow.
At first glance, nina'stendency to meticulously analyze
every decision seemed like astrength, but as we peeled back
the layers, we uncovered adeeper truth.
This habit wasn't just aboutmaking optimal choices.
It was a clever disguise forfear and self-doubt.
(49:28):
The breakthrough came when Ninadared to sit with her
discomfort.
By acknowledging her fearsinstead of burying them under a
mountain of analysis, sheunlocked a new level of
self-awareness.
This shift allowed her to tapinto her authentic desires and
make decisions from a place ofclarity rather than anxiety.
Nina's journey reminds us thattrue growth often comes from
unexpected places.
(49:48):
It's not always about pushingharder or thinking more.
Sometimes it's about having thecourage to pause, to feel, to
embrace all aspects of ourexperience, even the ones we'd
rather ignore.
For the founders and leaderslistening, this insight could be
game changing.
In a world that often equatessuccess with relentless forward
motion, nina's story offers adifferent perspective.
What if your next bigbreakthrough isn't hiding in
(50:10):
another late night strategysession, but the quiet moments
of self-acceptance as younavigate your own path this week
?
Consider this?
Where might you benefit fromloosening your grip?
What insights might emerge ifyou allow yourself to experience
your full range of emotions andthoughts without immediately
jumping to problem solving mode?
Thank you for listening to SlowDown, to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please rate it in your favorite
(50:32):
podcasting app.
If you are a founder who wantsto reach the next level through
coaching, or if you'd like tocome on the show, please contact
me at dashingleadershipcom.
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