December 9, 2024 • 49 mins
When is the last time you felt completely stuck growing your business, knowing what you "should" do but feeling unable to do it? In this coaching session, successful founder David Spinks opens up about his struggle with traditional marketing after his startup exit. What starts as a conversation about business development quickly reveals deeper truths about money, authenticity, and the fears that hold us back.
David sold his company CMX and stepped into coaching, only to find himself hitting an internal ceiling around $300K - exactly what his family needs to thrive. Through our exploration, we discover how childhood experiences with abandonment and conflict show up in surprising ways in our business decisions.
Themes we explore:
- The hidden psychology behind marketing resistance
- How childhood money stories impact adult business decisions
- Breaking through internal income ceilings
- Finding authentic ways to grow without compromising values
- The relationship between fear of abandonment and business growth
Enjoyed this episode? Ready to take your leadership and personal growth to the next level? Please visit my website to learn more about coaching with me.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Slow Down and Speed Up, where we have real
one-time coaching sessions withstartup founders working
through the challenges ofleadership.
I'm your host and executivecoach, brian Wang.
Today on the show we have DavidSpinks, a seasoned entrepreneur
and community building expert,who's recently transitioned into
coaching after stepping awayfrom his successful startup.
He also happens to be a friendof mine.
(00:20):
David comes to the sessiongrappling with a question many
of us face how do you grow yourbusiness while staying true to
your values?
It's a tricky balance.
We're often told to beaggressive in business, to
hustle and to grind, but perhapsyou've felt this before.
Sometimes you get that ickyfeeling that comes with selling,
and especially when you'reselling yourself.
But what do you do when thatapproach feels at odds with who
(00:41):
you really are?
What if there's a part of youthat actually is afraid of that
aggression?
In this session, david uncoversa surprising connection between
his aversion to certainbusiness tactics and some deeply
rooted personal fears.
We explore questions like whatdoes conscious ambition look
like and how do you reconcilethe drive for success with the
need for authenticity?
By the end, david gains somepowerful insights about himself
(01:04):
and leans into a new way toapproach growth, one that more
aligns with his true self.
All right, hope you enjoy.
Hey, david, great to see you.
It's good to be here.
Brian, I'm really excited tohave this conversation with you
and I'll just intro you realquick and hand it off to you.
So I'm with my friend, davidSpinks.
We've known each other for along time.
We met when we were on ourstartup founder journeys and
(01:29):
running our companiesrespectively, and, david, you've
been on the coaching path morerecently, after some time on
sabbatical and a number of othertransitions.
So I'm really, really, reallypleased to have you on here and
I'll just hand it off to you.
Just ask first if you want tomaybe spend a moment to
(01:50):
introduce yourself, and thenwe're going to get into what
we're here for in the session.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, sounds good.
Yeah, introduce myself.
Where do we go?
Personal present moment,history of career.
I never really know how tostart, I guess present moment
I'm here in Westchester, newYork, feeling pretty happy and
alive right now, prettyenergized from a couple retreats
(02:21):
that gave me a lot of energy.
Personally I'm a dad, twolittle kids, a husband.
Professionally I've been afounder entrepreneur for about
15 years, started threecompanies.
(02:46):
A lot of my work centeredaround community building,
community design, communitymanagement.
My last company was a companycalled CMX which was community
for community managers, sopeople who build community.
We provided training, a bigconference, local events,
research.
I started that 10 years ago,ran it for about eight years.
(03:07):
It was acquired five years agoand I stepped down two years ago
.
Um, stepped down at a pointwhere I was feeling relatively,
you could say, burned out, kindof just like creatively run dry,
like it was just lag.
There's a severe lack of souland heart in my work and my life
(03:31):
.
Um, I was kind of just goingthrough the motions and now I
can very clearly seeenergetically it was just not
there at all, like a lot of thethings I was showing up to were
just making my body and my heartclose up.
And yet I did it anyway,because that's what you did.
And I set out on sabbatical,kind of having a sense of that a
(03:53):
little bit, I think, and notreally knowing what it is or
what I was looking for, but justknowing something needed to
change.
Um, and so over the last twoyears I've been on that journey,
which maybe we'll get into someof that, but it's been a long
process of undoing sheddinglayers, revisiting my
(04:14):
relationship with work andsuccess and money and um, um,
and now in a phase of kind ofreentering the world of work and
achievement and ambition, butwith a very, very strong
yearning to do that from a placeof heart and consciousness and
service, and trying to figureout how those two things meet.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That reminds me of our conversation prior to this
recording and I wonder if you'restarting to touch on the
question that you wanted to getinto today.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, yeah, it seemed to naturally go there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and so,and just to provide a little bit
of background, because I thinkwhat we're we're going to talk
about is money.
Now I've emerged as a coach.
That's taken a few forms.
I work with a program calledDownshift with Steve Schlaffman,
(05:12):
Tracy Lawrence, Matt Yao,helping high achievers slow down
and revisit their relationshipwith work and money and success.
So this is a topic that'spretty relevant to the work I'm
helping others with.
I'm also coaching communityleaders, um, and supporting
(05:33):
people through transitions, um,supporting people who are
navigating conflict, which issomething I have a lot of
experience with personally.
And so, um, yeah, I'm in thisstage where I've found work that
I fucking love.
I really love workingone-on-one and in small groups
and holding containers that arereally rooted in heart and
(05:56):
healing and connection.
I'm loving learning differentcoaching modalities and
practices I'm getting reallyinto, like somatic coaching and
IFS, and um, I just feel really,really energetically aligned
with the work.
And we live in Westchester, NewYork, which is one of the most
expensive uh communities in theworld.
(06:20):
Um, I have two kids.
We're trying to grow our family.
Uh, we want to own a home,ideally, which we still do not.
I've been a founder.
I sold my company.
It's uh, it's equity.
I never had any sort of like umpost-economic exit or anything.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Right, I'm.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I'm.
I still, if anything, I've madea lot less than a lot of my
peers who just stayed theregular path.
And so, yeah, I'm in a placewhere I want to do work that
feels really aligned for me andis of service and supports
anyone who needs it, not justlike high net worth individuals.
And I'm a homemaker, I'm ahomekeeper, I'm not a monk.
(07:03):
I need to provide for my kids,I need to provide for my family,
I need to provide for ourfuture, and just the baseline to
be okay where we live is very,very high.
So it's this balance of doingwork, of service, while also
(07:24):
playing the money game, yeah,and being willing to make money.
And and it just kind ofconfronted me with a lot of
questions revisiting myrelationship with money, um,
attachment to money, shamearound money, um, there, just
it's such a rich, complex topicfor me and I think for most
(07:46):
people, yeah, and um, I I'd liketo get right in my relationship
with money and feel like I can,um, have that balance.
I'll pause there.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
You touched on a lot of things having to do with
money and your relationship toits various aspects.
Um, and I, it feels like everyone of those threads could be so
fantastic to go down.
Um, I'm wondering if, if youwere just to choose a specific
path to explore, choose aspecific path to explore, make
(08:25):
some movement on what would thatbe Right Like?
My invitation is for us to like, find, find something to pull.
That's going to be reallyreally meaningful right now.
Yeah, I think one, one thing,that's feeling fiery is noticing
(08:57):
a story I hold about myselfthat I'm not good at making
money or that there's like aceiling kind of arms of it.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
On one hand, there's like an aversion to marketing
and sales.
Like anytime anything starts tofeel businessy and
transactional, my like systemcloses off and I like don't feel
energy towards it and I don'twant to do it.
Yeah, um, there's a little bitof like evidence, I guess, in
(09:32):
that, like I've never made theamount of like independent
wealth type of money that I've,you know, told myself I wanted
to, or needed to from a youngage, I've long had a chip on my
shoulder at the same time ofwanting to make a lot of money
because we didn't grow up withmuch.
(09:53):
Both of my parents wereimmigrants.
I was born a year after theymoved to the US with nothing.
My parents hustled their assoff just to make sure we had a
safe and comfortable life, whichwe did lower middle class.
We never needed for food or, um, you know we were taken care of
, but it was always like it wasalways present in our household.
(10:15):
Yeah, and so there's a storyfor me of like I'm going to do.
I'm going to be the one to makea lot of money, take care of my
family.
Yeah, break through that ceiling, yeah, um, yeah, and, and
there's just something thatfeels really nebulous, like I
can't quite touch it orarticulate it, but it's almost
(10:36):
like, like, um, the idea of likea ceiling, like once I get to a
200 K, 300 K range, which ismaybe just based on like the
last salary I got was 200 K, um,but like even getting there
(11:00):
feels hard, let alone gettinglike past it, which is really we
need to get to like 300 K forme, for our family to be okay
here.
Yeah, um.
And there's a lot of likecomparison when I see other
people who seem like they'rereally fucking good at making
money, um, and I find myselfwondering like what is it?
(11:20):
What do they have?
And maybe even immediatelyswitching into judgment of like,
oh, they must be cutthroat orimmoral or willing to cross
lines that I'm not willing tocross.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Great, yeah.
So, um, I hear that you have apretty good sense of, just
numerically, where you wouldlike to be, just from a needs
perspective.
Here's where you live, here'sthe family that you have and
what you want your life to looklike, or what you might even
need to look like, based off ofthe situation.
(11:53):
And just the sense I get fromyou, david, is that there's no
real question on the dollars inand out that you might like for
that kind of picture to looklike.
But there is this you mentioned, like a block.
It's like when the prospect ofgenerating a certain type of
(12:15):
wealth or income comes upgenerating a certain type of
wealth or income comes up you'refeeling some resistance.
Some story, something feelsvery sticky.
You can call it nebulous, somesense that like, oh, that's not
for me, and then your mindstarts to fill it with reasons.
Why Is that accurate?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, it feels, true.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, one thing that I'm curious if we can play with.
I want to maybe suggest anexperiment.
Let's say you were just toimagine yourself, and if you
want to imagine viewing yourselfon a camera, if it helps you
can do that.
But just imagine that you'regoing about life, um, and you
(13:05):
really are pursuing that.
Let's say that 300k.
Uh, just from the get-go, likewhat would we be noticing, what
would we be observing in indavid, even just from the
external lens, in that pursuit?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
The first thing that came to mind immediately was
like too busy and toooverwhelmed, like if I'm making
that amount of money, myschedule must be totally
overbooked.
I'm like having to do way toomany calls and I'm like working
a lot and sacrificing a lot ofspaciousness and balance in my
(13:41):
life in order to be there, ohgreat.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
So from the get-go your system is like wait, that's
not a picture I want.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I don't know that it's yeah, I mean, the version
that came to mind feels like notwhat I want, which is like,
yeah, I'm making the money, butit's coming at the cost of my
wellbeing, balance andspaciousness in my life.
Balance in my life, okay, um,so like I mean, if I could
imagine the version of myselfthat's making that money and
(14:15):
still taking Fridays off andlike having a lot of space in my
life and balance, then thatfeels great, great.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So what's stopping you from imagining that?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, I don't know, maybe, uh, I mean, there's
clearly a belief, like anarrative, that comes up of
those two things are, um, arenot mutually exclusive, like, in
order to make that amount ofmoney, I would have to sacrifice
a great deal of time andbalance in my life.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, I wonder if you can just put more of your
attention on that belief itself,this belief that a certain
amount of money means sacrifice,this type of sacrifice you're
describing.
Just when you put yourattention on it, what do you
(15:16):
notice?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
put your attention on it.
What do you notice?
Um, yeah, I mean likesomatically, I notice like my
chest tightening a little bit,um, like a little bit of a fear
response.
Um, and then, yeah, likethere's a story with like
coaching that, um, it's, it'srenting out your time, right,
it's, um, in order to make moremoney, I need to take more calls
(15:48):
, and so there's this story thatfeels true, that like, yeah, to
make more money, that meansfilling up more of my calendar
and more of my time yeah, um,this tightness that you're
mentioning in the, in your body,the contraction um over here,
(16:13):
I'm imagining that, that there'ssomething that's feeling under
threat Is that an accuratereflection?
(16:37):
Like there's something feelinglike it's at stake or at risk.
Yeah, I've noticed there's kindof like two things happening.
It's both, like you know, likeI have like two parts kind of
speaking up.
It's like one that's saying, um, you got to make money, you got
to take care of your family, wegot to do this like we have to
achieve.
And then it's the other onethat's saying like, but take
(17:00):
care of yourself and make sureyou have spaciousness and calm
and presence.
And um, don't overwork yourself.
And the yeah, there's this fearof like I'm just going to keep
getting stuck in that loop andmaybe not ever really achieve
either one, although right now,in the stage of my life, I feel
(17:26):
pretty firmly like presentbalance, spaciousness, yeah, and
so, yeah, there's this fearthat I'm going to lose that.
And then it kind of and thenthe rebounded fear is like, well
then we're never going to makeenough money and we're not going
to be able to provide for ourfamily and you'll be a failure
as a father.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, so there's like this back and forth, that
occurs.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Fear of not achieving the financial situation that
you want, oh sorry, Fear oflosing the balance.
And then there's this responsethat happens like oh, but now
you're going to be a failure,You're not going to reach the
financial success that you'rehoping for.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, yeah, financial , yeah, we could call it success
, but it feels like financialsustainability, financial safety
.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, yeah, I'm guessing that you've contacted
these parts before.
Yeah, how have thoseexplorations gone in the past?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
It's been a while since I've intentionally spent
time with them.
It's been a while since I'veintentionally spent time with
them.
Um, yeah, I mean I think thatthat back and forth has has
always been present and, um,sometimes I can work with them
and hear what they each have tosay and kind of softens, yeah,
(18:58):
um yeah, like I'm noticing,noticing already maybe this is
me like coaching myself, butlike there's, there's a path of
like making enough and havingreally clear boundaries, and
like like why, why isn't thatpossible?
It's kind of the questioncoming up like why not be able
(19:19):
to make?
I'm not, I'm not trying to makeso much that possible.
It's kind of the questioncoming up like why not be able
to make?
I'm not, I'm not trying to makeso much money that it's like
it's not, it's not an insaneamount of money and um, so like
why not have both?
Speaker 1 (19:34):
yeah, so how does your system respond when it's
starting to play with that idea?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
There's a little bit of like, joy and openness around
that possibility, still someskepticism, and what?
What appeared in my mind wasagain this like okay, yeah, yeah
, there's a path to making money, but then it gets into those
stories of like, but you haven'tfigured out how to do that.
You don't know how to do that.
(20:09):
You don't like doing marketingand sales.
It feels cold and calculatedand you don't want to be
cutthroat.
So so is it possible to makethat amount of money without
those things?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, I hear a lot of doubt in there.
There's like oh, you haven'tdone it before, so that seems
like a blocker.
Or doing this would mean thatyou'd have to be cutthroat, or
doing this would mean that you'dhave to be cutthroat.
So there's like a this um,abandoning of principle or value
(20:47):
, or you'd be out of integrityin the way of going about that.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
And like, I'm also noticing,like I kind of have done it
before.
You know, cmx, we're generatingabout 800 K a year um before
getting acquired.
And um, you know, cmx, we weregenerating about 800k a year um
before getting acquired and um,you know, I hired three
full-time people, so the amountI was paying myself wasn't
anywhere close to that.
But as far as revenue, yeah, Ihave um with, with the help of
(21:15):
great co-founders and teams andstuff like that, um, but um,
even still, I guess, likethere's always this like a
comparison to like, yeah, we didthat, but then I'd compare
myself to someone else who had asimilar kind of business that
were, you know, was able to makea lot more and generate a lot
more wealth from it, um, and so,yeah, there's a little bit of
(21:42):
evidence that I have done it aswell as still, like this
question, like, but have youlike?
Have you really?
But you haven't?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
like, if you look at my bank account, I haven't right
um so, yeah, it occurs to me asI hear that is yeah, sorry, I
know you were just missentenced,but but something that's
occurring to me is there's likethis persistent voice that's
saying, well, you haven't doneit, or like, the evidence shows
you haven't done it.
There's this, there's just likeholding back.
(22:13):
There's just like no, no, no,no, no, don't go in that
direction.
Here are all the reasons why goin that direction.
Hear all the reasons why.
And as I'm listening to that,the sense I have is it's it's
protective in nature.
There's like a persistentpointing to well, here's all the
reasons why you can't do that.
And I wonder, like, if we justgo beyond the, the reasoning,
(22:39):
quote unquote, and we just getback, get to the, what is
protecting you from?
I wonder what that might beyeah, two things come to mind.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
One is I just got like a vision of me, um, kind of
like when I was back in my 20s.
It felt like that, just likeoverworking, yeah, just like
working all day, working lateinto the night, just work, work,
work, work, work and justcompletely burning myself out.
Um, and noticing there's stilla belief, maybe just from
(23:20):
hearing people, or like theexamples that we see of people
who have made a lot of money,that they're kind of like that
and they're proud of that andyeah.
So maybe there's a story oflike, well, that's what's
required.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, the hustle culture sort of thing yeah and
then.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So the part of me kind of protecting is like you
don't want to ruin your fuckinglife to make this money, yeah,
so, um, just, and like knowingmyself now I don't know, maybe
this isn't totally true, butlike at least recently my
capacity to do like a lot ofreally hard work has just like
(23:57):
really gone down you do have twokids.
After all, I have two kids and Ijust like I need to go fucking
walk in the woods like I need.
I need a lot of.
I can do really good work, butfor like kind of short bursts of
time and if I overdo it I readmy, my whole system starts to
kind of shut down.
Yeah, totally so that was thefirst thing that came to mind.
(24:18):
Bit of my like conflictavoidance.
(24:38):
Um, a story, a pattern I knowfor myself is how strong my
pattern is of making sureeveryone around me feels safe
and comfortable, to the extentthat I will contort myself and
put on a smile and not expressmy full range and power of
emotion in order to just likemanage the energy in a room
which we can get into.
Why that is.
But just notice, it'sinteresting to notice that come
(25:01):
up here, when I think about likesomething like sending a cold
email, it just feels likeintrusive, penetrative violence
in a way.
Like like I know how I feelsometimes when I receive it and
I have this like fear thatarises of like don't get too
pushy, don't get too aggressive,don't don't get too cutthroat-y
(25:24):
, business-y, because like maybepeople have that same kind of
reaction that I have when Ireceive that kind of energy.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So all of that just came from your exploration of
like, what are you like, what isthe thing protecting you from?
And and so the first beingyou've you've been in that pit
of like the overwork and theburnout and like, just like,
shut down, yeah.
And so I hear, like there'sthis part just being like don't
(25:56):
go back to that, yeah.
And then there's this otheraspect of like, oh, don't be
aggressive.
Or you talked aboutintrusiveness, so it less about
the being of the aggressive,being aggressive and more about
the impact that you're having.
So it less about the being ofthe aggressive, uh, being
aggressive, and more about theimpact that you're having.
So it's like, oh, don't, don'tharm others.
You said violence, so it waslike don't, don't, um, intrude
(26:20):
on people, um, and and that'sbeautiful.
It's like it really sounds likethis part of you is trying to
watch out for you, because thereare these things that matter a
lot, right?
So I wonder if we could just inthis moment, just thank this
part of you for trying to keepyou safe.
It's like, oh yeah, great, it'slooking out for me.
(26:43):
It doesn't want me to burn out,it doesn't want me to be
violent.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
What happens if you just take a moment to offer some
appreciation so the thank, theuh one, that's like protecting
my time and space, that wentpretty smooth, um, softened,
(27:09):
felt good, like yeah, we're onthe same page, this is important
to us.
Let's hold that line yeah andthen I started thanking the one
that was like, you know, makingsure we don't hurt anybody, and
then, uh, I felt like anotherpart entered.
Yeah, it was kind of like like,don't thank them.
(27:30):
Um, okay, and this is gettinginto like some stuff that's been
pretty active for me recently,which is around um, expressing
my authentic self and visitingthat.
That dynamic of worrying somuch about what other people
(27:52):
think, that I contort myself andI hold a lot in, and so how
this kind of work I've beendoing with myself is how do I
express myself moreauthentically and fully, even in
situations where maybe it'sgoing to rub people the wrong
way or there's a risk of theirfeelings being hurt?
(28:14):
Sure, never with the intentionof hurting feelings, of course,
but sure, if there's somethingreally that wants to be
expressed, and that's that'sreally.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
It's really fucking hard for me, um what's the
hardest part about that for you?
Um?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
yeah, there's.
There's fear of abandonment,which is something I experienced
a lot in childhood of I'm goingto say the wrong thing and
that's it.
I'm going to get cut outbecause that happened.
Yeah, and that's it.
I'm gonna get cut out becausethat happened, yeah.
Um, there's fear of um.
I've had a few really intenseexperiences in my life from
(28:58):
childhood as well as as recentin the last couple years of a
lot of rage being directed at mein a situation where I could
not express it back and had tokind of bottle it up, um, or
else I would risk creating morerage, right, right, so I have
like traumatic experiencesaround that and so I keep it in,
(29:19):
yeah, and so that fear is likeI'm gonna spark rage, I'm gonna
be, uh, exiled, yeah, abandoned,cut off, um, it's gonna create
conflict and to me, like even, Iguess every time I like this
even comes up, like I feel likemy hands tingling, getting
sweaty, like my heart startspicking up, yeah, breath gets
(29:42):
tighter, yeah, um, yeah,conflict brings a pretty
visceral reaction for me, yeah,and in a way, I think that
that's what happens when I gettoo businessy or aggressive or
something like that in business.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
It makes sense.
It sounds like your systemlearned to play nice, not to
rile anyone up.
Otherwise you'd have to facethese really, really intense
experiences that perhaps youdidn't have the capacity to
tolerate.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, yeah.
What occurs to me is thatwhat's needed is just a
recognition that there was a lotof suffering there, right yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, I've recognized that more and more lately.
Yeah, it's, I haven't connectedthat to the like, aversion to,
um, like being businessy or youknow.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, having that that like cutthroat energy
what's it like to to draw thatconnection, just the sense that
I'm going to try this on andjust see if it resonates.
But, like it, it sounds likepart of what might be happening
is some, some belief or someprediction that like, if I go
out there and I'm businessy touse that term, then I face the
(31:07):
threat of abandonment, I facethe threat of rage yeah, it
feels true, feels um, feels goodto have clarity, a little bit
of clearing there, um a littlebit of like sadness, like uh
(31:31):
like uh yet yet another thingthat I can tie back to that same
core wound, sure, um a littlebit of like helplessness or
hopelessness, like a belief thatI'm not going to be able to
change.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
That.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Some sadness around that.
What if you dropped any need tochange it?
You just simply allowedyourself to be with it.
It's like, yeah, there's thisparty that really feels
vulnerable around this.
It really genuinely believesthat it's going to risk all
those things if it goes out inthe world like this.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
It feels like risky to accept it, because then I
won't make the money that I needto make.
Yeah, like I need to change itor else I'm not going to solve
this problem.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
It might be helpful to make a distinction between
being with it in its experienceand believing the story.
You may not have to agree withthe story in order to be with
this part that feels this yeah,Just as you're with this part of
(32:59):
you that that feels this threat.
It's like if I'm out in theworld going after the business
and there's abandonment and rage, like what does this party need
from you right now, in thismoment?
Speaker 2 (33:16):
the part that's worried about abandonment and
rage yeah, the party that'sscared kind of like sensing that
it feels like a burden, um,like it doesn't want to be
scared anymore, doesn't want tohold me back.
It feels like a burden, like itdoesn't want to be scared
anymore.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
It doesn't want to hold me back.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Let it know that you see that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
It just like, feels like.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I feel it in my chest and throat, which has been
really alive for me lately, butthis feels very connected to it.
Yeah, like it feels kind oflike fiery.
Yeah, live for me lately, butthis feels very connected to it.
Yeah, like it feels kind oflike fiery.
Um, yeah, like there's a lot oflike worry and just like a lot
of built-up fear there.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, um, a lot of energy there I wonder if it's
had a chance to express itselfin any way maybe not in a while.
It doesn't have to do that now,but if it could express itself,
(34:23):
how would it want to?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, it was like I kind of noticed like that
judgment part.
I kind of asked myself, havingdone ifs in the past, you know,
is it, is it that part or isthat another part?
Judging it and felt like maybeit's that other part that like
wants to express, wants toachieve, wants to grow.
(34:49):
It was like wanting it to stopdo it, you know, stop, protect
me.
So I kind of asked it if itwould be willing to step back
and that like soften the partthat's fear, fearful of
abandonment, and let us uh, um,be together more peacefully and,
um, more peacefully.
(35:19):
And yeah, it feels like, itfeels like a little child.
Sure, that's just like afraid,but I just I feel a lot of
compassion toward it andunderstanding.
Yeah, um, I find myself likewondering like what's the
version of?
(35:39):
It?
Sounds silly, but, to bespecific, like, uh, like a cold
email, but that's coming fromheart.
Great, it doesn't feel cold,yeah, but may still help achieve
some business outcomes, youknow.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
I'm curious about that too.
What would a cold email fromDavid Spinks look like coming
from his heart?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Hot email, yeah, we might need to do some branding
exercises on that one yeah, yeah, I'm noticing like a bunch of
practical questions coming up oflike well, what I know about
doing marketing is like you doit at scale, and scale always
(36:29):
comes at the cost of heart in away, um, and personalization and
contact, and can feel cold, andso then it goes back to like
the amount of time it takes tolike message a lot of people
directly with hearts, kind ofthing what I noticed just now is
this you, you sort of went intothis like well, here's what I
know about marketing.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
It's like the playbook sort of came online.
I wonder, if we just messaround with this, let's see, I
don't know, if we threw out theplaybook for a moment and just
start with one thing that camefrom the heart, without any need
(37:12):
for scale, like what would thatlook and feel like?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
I mean, in a way I'm doing that like.
My newsletter comes to mind,which I used to treat very much
like.
I have to grow this thing, Ihave to optimize the funnel, I
have to convert people and sinceI started writing again um, it
was like beginning of this yearI just kind of let all that go.
I just write from my heart, Iwrite at my own cadence, I don't
(37:42):
commit to any sort of schedulethat forces me into it and I
don't optimize it.
I don't do anything to try togrow it and it's growing and
it's going well.
Um, is it converting theclients?
Not a little bit, not so much.
So there's still this questionof like, can it can like
(38:04):
heartfelt marketing, we call itum, convert, like, can it
actually drive business?
But that's something that hasfelt really good and pure and
clean to me and is serving amarketing purpose without it
being the primary intention ofit the thought just occurred for
(38:28):
me that I wanted to bring out.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
You used the word aggressive earlier.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
I just kind of wondering, like, what would it
look like for David to be 10%more aggressive while still
coming from his heart?
Speaker 2 (38:50):
It's like aggressive love.
Yeah, imagine myself likehugging my kids like really
tight, or my wife really tight.
Aggressive love, yeah, yeah, Imean there's definitely an
aggressive part of me that ifyou want to see that part, just
(39:13):
come see me on the basketballcourt.
It comes out Great, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, you know, in a containerof sport and competition that's
playful, it can come out becauseit doesn't feel personal, I
think, and then it's like butit's when it becomes
interpersonal that there's afear arises.
I don't think anyone's going toabandon me because I, you know,
(39:37):
drove hard down the lane andscored aggressively, but, um,
there's a fear of beingabandoned if I like socially, um
, hurt someone or drive intosomeone, you know yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
What if you could?
What if you knew you could goabout the?
I'm going to mix analogies here, but like what if you knew you
could go out into the field ofbusiness, drive hard, be
aggressive and know that youyou're not going to abandon
yourself, you're going to staywith yourself the whole time.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Hmm, what do you mean ?
Or I'm curious what broughtthat to mind.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah, when I hear you talk about the fear of
abandonment from others, Ialmost picture you like reaching
for, uh, others, which is sucha human thing that we do, right,
we, we need that, especially asyoung kids.
Um, but in the process, what I,what I'm picturing is you
(40:54):
leaving yourself.
What I'm picturing is youleaving yourself.
There's this scene in my mindwhere you're wanting to put
things out in the world, you'rewanting to help and express and
do all those things, and thoseare all when you're connected to
yourself.
But then, the moment you'relike uh-oh, someone's going to
break connection with me, youleave yourself so that you can
(41:19):
reach for the other person.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, that's really true.
Yeah, I'll share um anexperience, even from the last
couple of weeks had I've hadthis like energy in my throat
and like not sure what it is,and kind of have this initial
(41:45):
theory of like oh, it's aboutexpressing um outwardly.
And then, um, through a fewdifferent experiences, um, at
this, these retreats that I wason with like breath work and um
a few different practices, Inoticed that like, it's hard for
(42:07):
me to drop that energy intointo myself, like things kind of
get stuck here both ways, andthe like insight that I've been
sitting with is I'm not going tobe able to express myself
outwardly with full authenticityuntil I am authentically
(42:29):
grounded in myself.
Yeah, right, that authenticityhas to exist inside in order to
be expressed outside.
And, yeah, my life's been a longprocess of basically looking
for others to justify or make mefeel okay or enough.
And yeah, enoughness being areally core theme for me, um,
(42:54):
that's kind of what came up asyou were talking is if I can
find enoughness and like reallybe rooted in that and that
aggression we can call it comesfrom that place, then, even if
someone else says like oh, youwere aggressive, I don't lose
(43:17):
that enoughness.
Yeah, I can still listen, yeah,I can still take feedback which
is hard for me, but sure, um,but not let it undermine the
core enoughness.
And then, in that way, the likeaggression feels better, the
(43:37):
like aggression feels better.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
So if you just stay grounded and present right now,
opening your awareness, is thereany evidence of not enoughness
here?
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Hmm, um, I think that , um, yes, um, on on a couple
levels.
One level is just kind of likeholistic enoughness, and I think
that's just something that'slike really complex and
something that I'll probablywork on my whole life, like when
I reach 100% enoughness I'lllet you know and you can sign up
(44:29):
for my awakening seminar,seminar, um.
But then, um, the other thingthat's a little bit more
tangible, um came up, uh, rightnow, what's present for me is
like still relatively new tocoaching.
(44:50):
So like, am I a good enoughcoach to like go out and like
sell myself real hard?
Um, then also like just likeknowing the right approach to
marketing and sales and like, doI have that?
Am I good enough marketing andsalesperson?
So, kind of like a experience,knowledge, gap of enoughness
(45:16):
showed up that that there mightbe some skills to develop.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Experience, knowledge , gap of enoughness showed up.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
That there might be some skills to develop.
Yeah, I mean coaching.
I think I'm a phenomenal coach,if I'm being honest.
I have a lot of confidence inmyself and it's new.
And I'm still kind of likefinding you could call it like
positioning.
Yeah, like really clearpositioning, and it feels hard
to sell something if you don'tknow how to articulate it really
clearly.
Sure, so I struggle with that.
And then, yeah, the like skillgap or knowledge gap.
(45:49):
If I wanted to increase myaggression by 10% towards
growing my coaching business,for example, like what would
that actually translate to interms of action?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yeah, there might be some things to experiment with,
some things to find out as youplay with those questions.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah, yeah, they seem like solvable questions.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, skillsI can learn.
Absolutely yeah, they seem likesolvable questions.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, skills I canlearn.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Absolutely yeah.
So I want to maybe turn ourattention toward moving towards
some conclusion here and thenjust want to check in with you
and just see, yeah, what'swhat's floating around for you,
what's kind of yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Been most noticeable in the time together.
Yeah, I'm taking away arealization that I think I've
been placing a label onaggression as bad.
Hmm, I think I've been placinga label on aggression as bad,
and so there's kind of thisquestion of like what does
(47:06):
conscious aggression look like?
What does heartfelt aggressionlook like?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Again.
It's like that, like reallytight hug yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Imagining like people who I look up to and respect,
who are really ambitious andlike working hard and taking big
swings, and doing so with justlike a whole lot of heart and
alignment and consciousness andan intention to be of service.
It's like all right, like seemspossible.
Um, it feels helpful to connectthe aversion to business to my
(47:48):
well-known fear of abandonmentand rage, right, yeah, um, I
think just seeing that helpstake away a little bit of the
edge on it, softens it a littlebit.
Um, yeah, I'm feeling, I'mfeeling excited to like run some
(48:11):
experiments and kind of likeflip on the part of my brain
that has done a lot of marketingand sales over the years as a
founder.
And yeah, um, like, I feel likeI turned it off when I stepped
down right and I'm like reachinga point where I'm ready to
flick back, flip that, switch upand turn it on again and see,
(48:32):
see what it could do, but withthis new kind of paradigm, yeah,
yeah, it's like marketer Dave,but now with a lot more heart.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Yeah, awesome.
Well, I'm excited to see theexperiments in action and also
just want to encourage you tomaintain that connection with
some of those parts that we'rein contact with today,
especially the one that'sfeeling the fear of abandonment.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yeah, yeah that one needs a lot of love.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Yeah, awesome David, it was a pleasure having you on.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah, this was awesome Thanks.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
So much.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of Slow Down to Speed
Up.
If you enjoyed it, if you foundit valuable, please rate it in
your favorite podcasting app.
It's a fantastic way to helpthe podcast grow Better yet you
can share it with a friend, andif you want to learn more about
what it's like to work with mein coaching, then please reach
out at dashingleadershipcom.
Thanks, thanks, and see you atthe next one.
Welcome to Slow Down and Speed Up, where we have real
one-time coaching sessions withstartup founders working
through the challenges ofleadership.
I'm your host and executivecoach, brian Wang.
Today on the show we have DavidSpinks, a seasoned entrepreneur
and community building expert,who's recently transitioned into
coaching after stepping awayfrom his successful startup.
He also happens to be a friendof mine.
(00:20):
David comes to the sessiongrappling with a question many
of us face how do you grow yourbusiness while staying true to
your values?
It's a tricky balance.
We're often told to beaggressive in business, to
hustle and to grind, but perhapsyou've felt this before.
Sometimes you get that ickyfeeling that comes with selling,
and especially when you'reselling yourself.
But what do you do when thatapproach feels at odds with who
(00:41):
you really are?
What if there's a part of youthat actually is afraid of that
aggression?
In this session, david uncoversa surprising connection between
his aversion to certainbusiness tactics and some deeply
rooted personal fears.
We explore questions like whatdoes conscious ambition look
like and how do you reconcilethe drive for success with the
need for authenticity?
By the end, david gains somepowerful insights about himself
(01:04):
and leans into a new way toapproach growth, one that more
aligns with his true self.
All right, hope you enjoy.
Hey, david, great to see you.
It's good to be here.
Brian, I'm really excited tohave this conversation with you
and I'll just intro you realquick and hand it off to you.
So I'm with my friend, davidSpinks.
We've known each other for along time.
We met when we were on ourstartup founder journeys and
(01:29):
running our companiesrespectively, and, david, you've
been on the coaching path morerecently, after some time on
sabbatical and a number of othertransitions.
So I'm really, really, reallypleased to have you on here and
I'll just hand it off to you.
Just ask first if you want tomaybe spend a moment to
(01:50):
introduce yourself, and thenwe're going to get into what
we're here for in the session.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, sounds good.
Yeah, introduce myself.
Where do we go?
Personal present moment,history of career.
I never really know how tostart, I guess present moment
I'm here in Westchester, newYork, feeling pretty happy and
alive right now, prettyenergized from a couple retreats
(02:21):
that gave me a lot of energy.
Personally I'm a dad, twolittle kids, a husband.
Professionally I've been afounder entrepreneur for about
15 years, started threecompanies.
(02:46):
A lot of my work centeredaround community building,
community design, communitymanagement.
My last company was a companycalled CMX which was community
for community managers, sopeople who build community.
We provided training, a bigconference, local events,
research.
I started that 10 years ago,ran it for about eight years.
(03:07):
It was acquired five years agoand I stepped down two years ago
.
Um, stepped down at a pointwhere I was feeling relatively,
you could say, burned out, kindof just like creatively run dry,
like it was just lag.
There's a severe lack of souland heart in my work and my life
(03:31):
.
Um, I was kind of just goingthrough the motions and now I
can very clearly seeenergetically it was just not
there at all, like a lot of thethings I was showing up to were
just making my body and my heartclose up.
And yet I did it anyway,because that's what you did.
And I set out on sabbatical,kind of having a sense of that a
(03:53):
little bit, I think, and notreally knowing what it is or
what I was looking for, but justknowing something needed to
change.
Um, and so over the last twoyears I've been on that journey,
which maybe we'll get into someof that, but it's been a long
process of undoing sheddinglayers, revisiting my
(04:14):
relationship with work andsuccess and money and um, um,
and now in a phase of kind ofreentering the world of work and
achievement and ambition, butwith a very, very strong
yearning to do that from a placeof heart and consciousness and
service, and trying to figureout how those two things meet.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That reminds me of our conversation prior to this
recording and I wonder if you'restarting to touch on the
question that you wanted to getinto today.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, yeah, it seemed to naturally go there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and so,and just to provide a little bit
of background, because I thinkwhat we're we're going to talk
about is money.
Now I've emerged as a coach.
That's taken a few forms.
I work with a program calledDownshift with Steve Schlaffman,
(05:12):
Tracy Lawrence, Matt Yao,helping high achievers slow down
and revisit their relationshipwith work and money and success.
So this is a topic that'spretty relevant to the work I'm
helping others with.
I'm also coaching communityleaders, um, and supporting
(05:33):
people through transitions, um,supporting people who are
navigating conflict, which issomething I have a lot of
experience with personally.
And so, um, yeah, I'm in thisstage where I've found work that
I fucking love.
I really love workingone-on-one and in small groups
and holding containers that arereally rooted in heart and
(05:56):
healing and connection.
I'm loving learning differentcoaching modalities and
practices I'm getting reallyinto, like somatic coaching and
IFS, and um, I just feel really,really energetically aligned
with the work.
And we live in Westchester, NewYork, which is one of the most
expensive uh communities in theworld.
(06:20):
Um, I have two kids.
We're trying to grow our family.
Uh, we want to own a home,ideally, which we still do not.
I've been a founder.
I sold my company.
It's uh, it's equity.
I never had any sort of like umpost-economic exit or anything.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Right, I'm.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I'm.
I still, if anything, I've madea lot less than a lot of my
peers who just stayed theregular path.
And so, yeah, I'm in a placewhere I want to do work that
feels really aligned for me andis of service and supports
anyone who needs it, not justlike high net worth individuals.
And I'm a homemaker, I'm ahomekeeper, I'm not a monk.
(07:03):
I need to provide for my kids,I need to provide for my family,
I need to provide for ourfuture, and just the baseline to
be okay where we live is very,very high.
So it's this balance of doingwork, of service, while also
(07:24):
playing the money game, yeah,and being willing to make money.
And and it just kind ofconfronted me with a lot of
questions revisiting myrelationship with money, um,
attachment to money, shamearound money, um, there, just
it's such a rich, complex topicfor me and I think for most
(07:46):
people, yeah, and um, I I'd liketo get right in my relationship
with money and feel like I can,um, have that balance.
I'll pause there.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
You touched on a lot of things having to do with
money and your relationship toits various aspects.
Um, and I, it feels like everyone of those threads could be so
fantastic to go down.
Um, I'm wondering if, if youwere just to choose a specific
path to explore, choose aspecific path to explore, make
(08:25):
some movement on what would thatbe Right Like?
My invitation is for us to like, find, find something to pull.
That's going to be reallyreally meaningful right now.
Yeah, I think one, one thing,that's feeling fiery is noticing
(08:57):
a story I hold about myselfthat I'm not good at making
money or that there's like aceiling kind of arms of it.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
On one hand, there's like an aversion to marketing
and sales.
Like anytime anything starts tofeel businessy and
transactional, my like systemcloses off and I like don't feel
energy towards it and I don'twant to do it.
Yeah, um, there's a little bitof like evidence, I guess, in
(09:32):
that, like I've never made theamount of like independent
wealth type of money that I've,you know, told myself I wanted
to, or needed to from a youngage, I've long had a chip on my
shoulder at the same time ofwanting to make a lot of money
because we didn't grow up withmuch.
(09:53):
Both of my parents wereimmigrants.
I was born a year after theymoved to the US with nothing.
My parents hustled their assoff just to make sure we had a
safe and comfortable life, whichwe did lower middle class.
We never needed for food or, um, you know we were taken care of
, but it was always like it wasalways present in our household.
(10:15):
Yeah, and so there's a storyfor me of like I'm going to do.
I'm going to be the one to makea lot of money, take care of my
family.
Yeah, break through that ceiling, yeah, um, yeah, and, and
there's just something thatfeels really nebulous, like I
can't quite touch it orarticulate it, but it's almost
(10:36):
like, like, um, the idea of likea ceiling, like once I get to a
200 K, 300 K range, which ismaybe just based on like the
last salary I got was 200 K, um,but like even getting there
(11:00):
feels hard, let alone gettinglike past it, which is really we
need to get to like 300 K forme, for our family to be okay
here.
Yeah, um.
And there's a lot of likecomparison when I see other
people who seem like they'rereally fucking good at making
money, um, and I find myselfwondering like what is it?
(11:20):
What do they have?
And maybe even immediatelyswitching into judgment of like,
oh, they must be cutthroat orimmoral or willing to cross
lines that I'm not willing tocross.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Great, yeah.
So, um, I hear that you have apretty good sense of, just
numerically, where you wouldlike to be, just from a needs
perspective.
Here's where you live, here'sthe family that you have and
what you want your life to looklike, or what you might even
need to look like, based off ofthe situation.
(11:53):
And just the sense I get fromyou, david, is that there's no
real question on the dollars inand out that you might like for
that kind of picture to looklike.
But there is this you mentioned, like a block.
It's like when the prospect ofgenerating a certain type of
(12:15):
wealth or income comes upgenerating a certain type of
wealth or income comes up you'refeeling some resistance.
Some story, something feelsvery sticky.
You can call it nebulous, somesense that like, oh, that's not
for me, and then your mindstarts to fill it with reasons.
Why Is that accurate?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, it feels, true.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, one thing that I'm curious if we can play with.
I want to maybe suggest anexperiment.
Let's say you were just toimagine yourself, and if you
want to imagine viewing yourselfon a camera, if it helps you
can do that.
But just imagine that you'regoing about life, um, and you
(13:05):
really are pursuing that.
Let's say that 300k.
Uh, just from the get-go, likewhat would we be noticing, what
would we be observing in indavid, even just from the
external lens, in that pursuit?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
The first thing that came to mind immediately was
like too busy and toooverwhelmed, like if I'm making
that amount of money, myschedule must be totally
overbooked.
I'm like having to do way toomany calls and I'm like working
a lot and sacrificing a lot ofspaciousness and balance in my
(13:41):
life in order to be there, ohgreat.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
So from the get-go your system is like wait, that's
not a picture I want.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I don't know that it's yeah, I mean, the version
that came to mind feels like notwhat I want, which is like,
yeah, I'm making the money, butit's coming at the cost of my
wellbeing, balance andspaciousness in my life.
Balance in my life, okay, um,so like I mean, if I could
imagine the version of myselfthat's making that money and
(14:15):
still taking Fridays off andlike having a lot of space in my
life and balance, then thatfeels great, great.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So what's stopping you from imagining that?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, I don't know, maybe, uh, I mean, there's
clearly a belief, like anarrative, that comes up of
those two things are, um, arenot mutually exclusive, like, in
order to make that amount ofmoney, I would have to sacrifice
a great deal of time andbalance in my life.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, I wonder if you can just put more of your
attention on that belief itself,this belief that a certain
amount of money means sacrifice,this type of sacrifice you're
describing.
Just when you put yourattention on it, what do you
(15:16):
notice?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
put your attention on it.
What do you notice?
Um, yeah, I mean likesomatically, I notice like my
chest tightening a little bit,um, like a little bit of a fear
response.
Um, and then, yeah, likethere's a story with like
coaching that, um, it's, it'srenting out your time, right,
it's, um, in order to make moremoney, I need to take more calls
(15:48):
, and so there's this story thatfeels true, that like, yeah, to
make more money, that meansfilling up more of my calendar
and more of my time yeah, um,this tightness that you're
mentioning in the, in your body,the contraction um over here,
(16:13):
I'm imagining that, that there'ssomething that's feeling under
threat Is that an accuratereflection?
(16:37):
Like there's something feelinglike it's at stake or at risk.
Yeah, I've noticed there's kindof like two things happening.
It's both, like you know, likeI have like two parts kind of
speaking up.
It's like one that's saying, um, you got to make money, you got
to take care of your family, wegot to do this like we have to
achieve.
And then it's the other onethat's saying like, but take
(17:00):
care of yourself and make sureyou have spaciousness and calm
and presence.
And um, don't overwork yourself.
And the yeah, there's this fearof like I'm just going to keep
getting stuck in that loop andmaybe not ever really achieve
either one, although right now,in the stage of my life, I feel
(17:26):
pretty firmly like presentbalance, spaciousness, yeah, and
so, yeah, there's this fearthat I'm going to lose that.
And then it kind of and thenthe rebounded fear is like, well
then we're never going to makeenough money and we're not going
to be able to provide for ourfamily and you'll be a failure
as a father.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, so there's like this back and forth, that
occurs.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Fear of not achieving the financial situation that
you want, oh sorry, Fear oflosing the balance.
And then there's this responsethat happens like oh, but now
you're going to be a failure,You're not going to reach the
financial success that you'rehoping for.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, yeah, financial , yeah, we could call it success
, but it feels like financialsustainability, financial safety
.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, yeah, I'm guessing that you've contacted
these parts before.
Yeah, how have thoseexplorations gone in the past?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
It's been a while since I've intentionally spent
time with them.
It's been a while since I'veintentionally spent time with
them.
Um, yeah, I mean I think thatthat back and forth has has
always been present and, um,sometimes I can work with them
and hear what they each have tosay and kind of softens, yeah,
(18:58):
um yeah, like I'm noticing,noticing already maybe this is
me like coaching myself, butlike there's, there's a path of
like making enough and havingreally clear boundaries, and
like like why, why isn't thatpossible?
It's kind of the questioncoming up like why not be able
(19:19):
to make?
I'm not, I'm not trying to makeso much that possible.
It's kind of the questioncoming up like why not be able
to make?
I'm not, I'm not trying to makeso much money that it's like
it's not, it's not an insaneamount of money and um, so like
why not have both?
Speaker 1 (19:34):
yeah, so how does your system respond when it's
starting to play with that idea?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
There's a little bit of like, joy and openness around
that possibility, still someskepticism, and what?
What appeared in my mind wasagain this like okay, yeah, yeah
, there's a path to making money, but then it gets into those
stories of like, but you haven'tfigured out how to do that.
You don't know how to do that.
(20:09):
You don't like doing marketingand sales.
It feels cold and calculatedand you don't want to be
cutthroat.
So so is it possible to makethat amount of money without
those things?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, I hear a lot of doubt in there.
There's like oh, you haven'tdone it before, so that seems
like a blocker.
Or doing this would mean thatyou'd have to be cutthroat, or
doing this would mean that you'dhave to be cutthroat.
So there's like a this um,abandoning of principle or value
(20:47):
, or you'd be out of integrityin the way of going about that.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
And like, I'm also noticing,like I kind of have done it
before.
You know, cmx, we're generatingabout 800 K a year um before
getting acquired.
And um, you know, cmx, we weregenerating about 800k a year um
before getting acquired and um,you know, I hired three
full-time people, so the amountI was paying myself wasn't
anywhere close to that.
But as far as revenue, yeah, Ihave um with, with the help of
(21:15):
great co-founders and teams andstuff like that, um, but um,
even still, I guess, likethere's always this like a
comparison to like, yeah, we didthat, but then I'd compare
myself to someone else who had asimilar kind of business that
were, you know, was able to makea lot more and generate a lot
more wealth from it, um, and so,yeah, there's a little bit of
(21:42):
evidence that I have done it aswell as still, like this
question, like, but have youlike?
Have you really?
But you haven't?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
like, if you look at my bank account, I haven't right
um so, yeah, it occurs to me asI hear that is yeah, sorry, I
know you were just missentenced,but but something that's
occurring to me is there's likethis persistent voice that's
saying, well, you haven't doneit, or like, the evidence shows
you haven't done it.
There's this, there's just likeholding back.
(22:13):
There's just like no, no, no,no, no, don't go in that
direction.
Here are all the reasons why goin that direction.
Hear all the reasons why.
And as I'm listening to that,the sense I have is it's it's
protective in nature.
There's like a persistentpointing to well, here's all the
reasons why you can't do that.
And I wonder, like, if we justgo beyond the, the reasoning,
(22:39):
quote unquote, and we just getback, get to the, what is
protecting you from?
I wonder what that might beyeah, two things come to mind.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
One is I just got like a vision of me, um, kind of
like when I was back in my 20s.
It felt like that, just likeoverworking, yeah, just like
working all day, working lateinto the night, just work, work,
work, work, work and justcompletely burning myself out.
Um, and noticing there's stilla belief, maybe just from
(23:20):
hearing people, or like theexamples that we see of people
who have made a lot of money,that they're kind of like that
and they're proud of that andyeah.
So maybe there's a story oflike, well, that's what's
required.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, the hustle culture sort of thing yeah and
then.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So the part of me kind of protecting is like you
don't want to ruin your fuckinglife to make this money, yeah,
so, um, just, and like knowingmyself now I don't know, maybe
this isn't totally true, butlike at least recently my
capacity to do like a lot ofreally hard work has just like
(23:57):
really gone down you do have twokids.
After all, I have two kids and Ijust like I need to go fucking
walk in the woods like I need.
I need a lot of.
I can do really good work, butfor like kind of short bursts of
time and if I overdo it I readmy, my whole system starts to
kind of shut down.
Yeah, totally so that was thefirst thing that came to mind.
(24:18):
Bit of my like conflictavoidance.
(24:38):
Um, a story, a pattern I knowfor myself is how strong my
pattern is of making sureeveryone around me feels safe
and comfortable, to the extentthat I will contort myself and
put on a smile and not expressmy full range and power of
emotion in order to just likemanage the energy in a room
which we can get into.
Why that is.
But just notice, it'sinteresting to notice that come
(25:01):
up here, when I think about likesomething like sending a cold
email, it just feels likeintrusive, penetrative violence
in a way.
Like like I know how I feelsometimes when I receive it and
I have this like fear thatarises of like don't get too
pushy, don't get too aggressive,don't don't get too cutthroat-y
(25:24):
, business-y, because like maybepeople have that same kind of
reaction that I have when Ireceive that kind of energy.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So all of that just came from your exploration of
like, what are you like, what isthe thing protecting you from?
And and so the first beingyou've you've been in that pit
of like the overwork and theburnout and like, just like,
shut down, yeah.
And so I hear, like there'sthis part just being like don't
(25:56):
go back to that, yeah.
And then there's this otheraspect of like, oh, don't be
aggressive.
Or you talked aboutintrusiveness, so it less about
the being of the aggressive,being aggressive and more about
the impact that you're having.
So it less about the being ofthe aggressive, uh, being
aggressive, and more about theimpact that you're having.
So it's like, oh, don't, don'tharm others.
You said violence, so it waslike don't, don't, um, intrude
(26:20):
on people, um, and and that'sbeautiful.
It's like it really sounds likethis part of you is trying to
watch out for you, because thereare these things that matter a
lot, right?
So I wonder if we could just inthis moment, just thank this
part of you for trying to keepyou safe.
It's like, oh yeah, great, it'slooking out for me.
(26:43):
It doesn't want me to burn out,it doesn't want me to be
violent.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
What happens if you just take a moment to offer some
appreciation so the thank, theuh one, that's like protecting
my time and space, that wentpretty smooth, um, softened,
(27:09):
felt good, like yeah, we're onthe same page, this is important
to us.
Let's hold that line yeah andthen I started thanking the one
that was like, you know, makingsure we don't hurt anybody, and
then, uh, I felt like anotherpart entered.
Yeah, it was kind of like like,don't thank them.
(27:30):
Um, okay, and this is gettinginto like some stuff that's been
pretty active for me recently,which is around um, expressing
my authentic self and visitingthat.
That dynamic of worrying somuch about what other people
(27:52):
think, that I contort myself andI hold a lot in, and so how
this kind of work I've beendoing with myself is how do I
express myself moreauthentically and fully, even in
situations where maybe it'sgoing to rub people the wrong
way or there's a risk of theirfeelings being hurt?
(28:14):
Sure, never with the intentionof hurting feelings, of course,
but sure, if there's somethingreally that wants to be
expressed, and that's that'sreally.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
It's really fucking hard for me, um what's the
hardest part about that for you?
Um?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
yeah, there's.
There's fear of abandonment,which is something I experienced
a lot in childhood of I'm goingto say the wrong thing and
that's it.
I'm going to get cut outbecause that happened.
Yeah, and that's it.
I'm gonna get cut out becausethat happened, yeah.
Um, there's fear of um.
I've had a few really intenseexperiences in my life from
(28:58):
childhood as well as as recentin the last couple years of a
lot of rage being directed at mein a situation where I could
not express it back and had tokind of bottle it up, um, or
else I would risk creating morerage, right, right, so I have
like traumatic experiencesaround that and so I keep it in,
(29:19):
yeah, and so that fear is likeI'm gonna spark rage, I'm gonna
be, uh, exiled, yeah, abandoned,cut off, um, it's gonna create
conflict and to me, like even, Iguess every time I like this
even comes up, like I feel likemy hands tingling, getting
sweaty, like my heart startspicking up, yeah, breath gets
(29:42):
tighter, yeah, um, yeah,conflict brings a pretty
visceral reaction for me, yeah,and in a way, I think that
that's what happens when I gettoo businessy or aggressive or
something like that in business.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
It makes sense.
It sounds like your systemlearned to play nice, not to
rile anyone up.
Otherwise you'd have to facethese really, really intense
experiences that perhaps youdidn't have the capacity to
tolerate.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, yeah.
What occurs to me is thatwhat's needed is just a
recognition that there was a lotof suffering there, right yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, I've recognized that more and more lately.
Yeah, it's, I haven't connectedthat to the like, aversion to,
um, like being businessy or youknow.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, having that that like cutthroat energy
what's it like to to draw thatconnection, just the sense that
I'm going to try this on andjust see if it resonates.
But, like it, it sounds likepart of what might be happening
is some, some belief or someprediction that like, if I go
out there and I'm businessy touse that term, then I face the
(31:07):
threat of abandonment, I facethe threat of rage yeah, it
feels true, feels um, feels goodto have clarity, a little bit
of clearing there, um a littlebit of like sadness, like uh
(31:31):
like uh yet yet another thingthat I can tie back to that same
core wound, sure, um a littlebit of like helplessness or
hopelessness, like a belief thatI'm not going to be able to
change.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
That.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Some sadness around that.
What if you dropped any need tochange it?
You just simply allowedyourself to be with it.
It's like, yeah, there's thisparty that really feels
vulnerable around this.
It really genuinely believesthat it's going to risk all
those things if it goes out inthe world like this.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
It feels like risky to accept it, because then I
won't make the money that I needto make.
Yeah, like I need to change itor else I'm not going to solve
this problem.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
It might be helpful to make a distinction between
being with it in its experienceand believing the story.
You may not have to agree withthe story in order to be with
this part that feels this yeah,Just as you're with this part of
(32:59):
you that that feels this threat.
It's like if I'm out in theworld going after the business
and there's abandonment and rage, like what does this party need
from you right now, in thismoment?
Speaker 2 (33:16):
the part that's worried about abandonment and
rage yeah, the party that'sscared kind of like sensing that
it feels like a burden, um,like it doesn't want to be
scared anymore, doesn't want tohold me back.
It feels like a burden, like itdoesn't want to be scared
anymore.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
It doesn't want to hold me back.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Let it know that you see that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
It just like, feels like.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I feel it in my chest and throat, which has been
really alive for me lately, butthis feels very connected to it.
Yeah, like it feels kind oflike fiery.
Yeah, live for me lately, butthis feels very connected to it.
Yeah, like it feels kind oflike fiery.
Um, yeah, like there's a lot oflike worry and just like a lot
of built-up fear there.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, um, a lot of energy there I wonder if it's
had a chance to express itselfin any way maybe not in a while.
It doesn't have to do that now,but if it could express itself,
(34:23):
how would it want to?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, it was like I kind of noticed like that
judgment part.
I kind of asked myself, havingdone ifs in the past, you know,
is it, is it that part or isthat another part?
Judging it and felt like maybeit's that other part that like
wants to express, wants toachieve, wants to grow.
(34:49):
It was like wanting it to stopdo it, you know, stop, protect
me.
So I kind of asked it if itwould be willing to step back
and that like soften the partthat's fear, fearful of
abandonment, and let us uh, um,be together more peacefully and,
um, more peacefully.
(35:19):
And yeah, it feels like, itfeels like a little child.
Sure, that's just like afraid,but I just I feel a lot of
compassion toward it andunderstanding.
Yeah, um, I find myself likewondering like what's the
version of?
(35:39):
It?
Sounds silly, but, to bespecific, like, uh, like a cold
email, but that's coming fromheart.
Great, it doesn't feel cold,yeah, but may still help achieve
some business outcomes, youknow.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
I'm curious about that too.
What would a cold email fromDavid Spinks look like coming
from his heart?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Hot email, yeah, we might need to do some branding
exercises on that one yeah, yeah, I'm noticing like a bunch of
practical questions coming up oflike well, what I know about
doing marketing is like you doit at scale, and scale always
(36:29):
comes at the cost of heart in away, um, and personalization and
contact, and can feel cold, andso then it goes back to like
the amount of time it takes tolike message a lot of people
directly with hearts, kind ofthing what I noticed just now is
this you, you sort of went intothis like well, here's what I
know about marketing.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
It's like the playbook sort of came online.
I wonder, if we just messaround with this, let's see, I
don't know, if we threw out theplaybook for a moment and just
start with one thing that camefrom the heart, without any need
(37:12):
for scale, like what would thatlook and feel like?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
I mean, in a way I'm doing that like.
My newsletter comes to mind,which I used to treat very much
like.
I have to grow this thing, Ihave to optimize the funnel, I
have to convert people and sinceI started writing again um, it
was like beginning of this yearI just kind of let all that go.
I just write from my heart, Iwrite at my own cadence, I don't
(37:42):
commit to any sort of schedulethat forces me into it and I
don't optimize it.
I don't do anything to try togrow it and it's growing and
it's going well.
Um, is it converting theclients?
Not a little bit, not so much.
So there's still this questionof like, can it can like
(38:04):
heartfelt marketing, we call itum, convert, like, can it
actually drive business?
But that's something that hasfelt really good and pure and
clean to me and is serving amarketing purpose without it
being the primary intention ofit the thought just occurred for
(38:28):
me that I wanted to bring out.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
You used the word aggressive earlier.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
I just kind of wondering, like, what would it
look like for David to be 10%more aggressive while still
coming from his heart?
Speaker 2 (38:50):
It's like aggressive love.
Yeah, imagine myself likehugging my kids like really
tight, or my wife really tight.
Aggressive love, yeah, yeah, Imean there's definitely an
aggressive part of me that ifyou want to see that part, just
(39:13):
come see me on the basketballcourt.
It comes out Great, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, you know, in a containerof sport and competition that's
playful, it can come out becauseit doesn't feel personal, I
think, and then it's like butit's when it becomes
interpersonal that there's afear arises.
I don't think anyone's going toabandon me because I, you know,
(39:37):
drove hard down the lane andscored aggressively, but, um,
there's a fear of beingabandoned if I like socially, um
, hurt someone or drive intosomeone, you know yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
What if you could?
What if you knew you could goabout the?
I'm going to mix analogies here, but like what if you knew you
could go out into the field ofbusiness, drive hard, be
aggressive and know that youyou're not going to abandon
yourself, you're going to staywith yourself the whole time.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Hmm, what do you mean ?
Or I'm curious what broughtthat to mind.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah, when I hear you talk about the fear of
abandonment from others, Ialmost picture you like reaching
for, uh, others, which is sucha human thing that we do, right,
we, we need that, especially asyoung kids.
Um, but in the process, what I,what I'm picturing is you
(40:54):
leaving yourself.
What I'm picturing is youleaving yourself.
There's this scene in my mindwhere you're wanting to put
things out in the world, you'rewanting to help and express and
do all those things, and thoseare all when you're connected to
yourself.
But then, the moment you'relike uh-oh, someone's going to
break connection with me, youleave yourself so that you can
(41:19):
reach for the other person.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, that's really true.
Yeah, I'll share um anexperience, even from the last
couple of weeks had I've hadthis like energy in my throat
and like not sure what it is,and kind of have this initial
(41:45):
theory of like oh, it's aboutexpressing um outwardly.
And then, um, through a fewdifferent experiences, um, at
this, these retreats that I wason with like breath work and um
a few different practices, Inoticed that like, it's hard for
(42:07):
me to drop that energy intointo myself, like things kind of
get stuck here both ways, andthe like insight that I've been
sitting with is I'm not going tobe able to express myself
outwardly with full authenticityuntil I am authentically
(42:29):
grounded in myself.
Yeah, right, that authenticityhas to exist inside in order to
be expressed outside.
And, yeah, my life's been a longprocess of basically looking
for others to justify or make mefeel okay or enough.
And yeah, enoughness being areally core theme for me, um,
(42:54):
that's kind of what came up asyou were talking is if I can
find enoughness and like reallybe rooted in that and that
aggression we can call it comesfrom that place, then, even if
someone else says like oh, youwere aggressive, I don't lose
(43:17):
that enoughness.
Yeah, I can still listen, yeah,I can still take feedback which
is hard for me, but sure, um,but not let it undermine the
core enoughness.
And then, in that way, the likeaggression feels better, the
(43:37):
like aggression feels better.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
So if you just stay grounded and present right now,
opening your awareness, is thereany evidence of not enoughness
here?
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Hmm, um, I think that , um, yes, um, on on a couple
levels.
One level is just kind of likeholistic enoughness, and I think
that's just something that'slike really complex and
something that I'll probablywork on my whole life, like when
I reach 100% enoughness I'lllet you know and you can sign up
(44:29):
for my awakening seminar,seminar, um.
But then, um, the other thingthat's a little bit more
tangible, um came up, uh, rightnow, what's present for me is
like still relatively new tocoaching.
(44:50):
So like, am I a good enoughcoach to like go out and like
sell myself real hard?
Um, then also like just likeknowing the right approach to
marketing and sales and like, doI have that?
Am I good enough marketing andsalesperson?
So, kind of like a experience,knowledge, gap of enoughness
(45:16):
showed up that that there mightbe some skills to develop.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Experience, knowledge , gap of enoughness showed up.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
That there might be some skills to develop.
Yeah, I mean coaching.
I think I'm a phenomenal coach,if I'm being honest.
I have a lot of confidence inmyself and it's new.
And I'm still kind of likefinding you could call it like
positioning.
Yeah, like really clearpositioning, and it feels hard
to sell something if you don'tknow how to articulate it really
clearly.
Sure, so I struggle with that.
And then, yeah, the like skillgap or knowledge gap.
(45:49):
If I wanted to increase myaggression by 10% towards
growing my coaching business,for example, like what would
that actually translate to interms of action?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yeah, there might be some things to experiment with,
some things to find out as youplay with those questions.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah, yeah, they seem like solvable questions.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, skillsI can learn.
Absolutely yeah, they seem likesolvable questions.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, skills I canlearn.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Absolutely yeah.
So I want to maybe turn ourattention toward moving towards
some conclusion here and thenjust want to check in with you
and just see, yeah, what'swhat's floating around for you,
what's kind of yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Been most noticeable in the time together.
Yeah, I'm taking away arealization that I think I've
been placing a label onaggression as bad.
Hmm, I think I've been placinga label on aggression as bad,
and so there's kind of thisquestion of like what does
(47:06):
conscious aggression look like?
What does heartfelt aggressionlook like?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Again.
It's like that, like reallytight hug yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Imagining like people who I look up to and respect,
who are really ambitious andlike working hard and taking big
swings, and doing so with justlike a whole lot of heart and
alignment and consciousness andan intention to be of service.
It's like all right, like seemspossible.
Um, it feels helpful to connectthe aversion to business to my
(47:48):
well-known fear of abandonmentand rage, right, yeah, um, I
think just seeing that helpstake away a little bit of the
edge on it, softens it a littlebit.
Um, yeah, I'm feeling, I'mfeeling excited to like run some
(48:11):
experiments and kind of likeflip on the part of my brain
that has done a lot of marketingand sales over the years as a
founder.
And yeah, um, like, I feel likeI turned it off when I stepped
down right and I'm like reachinga point where I'm ready to
flick back, flip that, switch upand turn it on again and see,
(48:32):
see what it could do, but withthis new kind of paradigm, yeah,
yeah, it's like marketer Dave,but now with a lot more heart.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Yeah, awesome.
Well, I'm excited to see theexperiments in action and also
just want to encourage you tomaintain that connection with
some of those parts that we'rein contact with today,
especially the one that'sfeeling the fear of abandonment.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yeah, yeah that one needs a lot of love.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Yeah, awesome David, it was a pleasure having you on.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah, this was awesome Thanks.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
So much.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of Slow Down to Speed
Up.
If you enjoyed it, if you foundit valuable, please rate it in
your favorite podcasting app.
It's a fantastic way to helpthe podcast grow Better yet you
can share it with a friend, andif you want to learn more about
what it's like to work with mein coaching, then please reach
out at dashingleadershipcom.
Thanks, thanks, and see you atthe next one.
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