December 23, 2024 • 54 mins
When climate guide and leadership coach Dom Francks steps into the coaching seat himself, he confronts a question that haunts many mission-driven leaders: what if all our work isn't enough? Through raw honesty about his own struggles with helplessness, self-doubt, and the unbearable gap between what he dreams of doing and what feels possible, Dom discovers an unexpected truth about impact.
In this session, we explore:
- The tension between personal impact and planetary challenges
- Why self-doubt might be a signal you're on the right track
- Moving beyond the "not doing enough" trap
- Finding peace with imperfect action while staying committed
- The surprising power of living in uncomfortable questions
- What real courage looks like in mission-driven work
Whether you're fighting for environmental justice, building something meaningful, or simply trying to do good work in a world that feels like it's burning, this conversation offers a powerful perspective on what it means to make real change. It challenges conventional wisdom about impact and invites us to consider that the very tension we're trying to resolve might be exactly what we need.
Enjoyed this episode? Ready to take your leadership and personal growth to the next level? Please visit my website to learn more about coaching with me.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When the world feels like it's burning down all
around us, how do we know ifwe're doing enough?
Is running leadership programsand coaching people really
making a difference when theAmazon rainforest is literally
on fire?
Welcome to Slow Down, to SpeedUp, where we have real one-time
coaching sessions with startupfounders working through the
challenges of leadership.
I'm your host and executivecoach, Brian Wang.
(00:20):
Today's session gets intosomething that many of us
wrestle with that gap betweenwhat we say matters most to us
and what we're actually doingabout it.
Don Franks is a wilderness guideand leadership coach who's
dedicated his career to healinghumanity's relationship with the
natural world, but lately he'sbeen questioning everything.
Should he be doing somethingbigger, more direct?
(00:40):
Is he just fooling himselfabout his impact?
What makes this conversationfascinating is how it reveals
the stories we tell ourselvesabout not being or doing enough.
You'll hear Dom move fromself-judgment to a deeper
understanding of how thistension, this constant
questioning, might actually beexactly what's needed to drive
meaningful change.
Whether you're running amission-driven startup or just
(01:03):
trying to make a positive impactin the world, this conversation
might help you see your ownquestions and doubts in a new
light.
Let's tune in.
Hey Dom, it's great to see you.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Good to see you as well, Brian.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yeah, so excited to sit down with you.
I know this is our very firsttime in a session, so that's
always fun for me as a coach andI'm sure for you being a coach,
and I'm sure for you being acoach and having been coached,
these first time sessions arealways fun.
So, yeah, maybe we'll just jumpright in and I wanted to ask
you what you're bringing in.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Many things, but I think a place that feels alive
to start is a question aroundimpact in the context of, like,
the scale of accelerating forcesin the world.
So this is going to be let's.
(01:58):
We'll start macro and then Ithink we'll come into the micro.
But I, for a very long time,since I was very young, have
felt like our relationship tothe natural world and our
relationship to the broaderfamily of life on this planet is
the most important thing andthe way that we're generally in
(02:18):
misalignment with that world,and so I worked in climate
focused tech companies.
I worked in other sort of areastrying to be of support in
healing that divide, and thatthen led me into my current work
as a wilderness guide andleadership coach.
So, with that as context, Ithink where I sit right now is
feeling incredibly enlivened bythe work that I'm doing and,
(02:41):
like, from a moment by momentbasis, feeling more aligned,
more inspired than I have before.
Um, and like, from a moment bymoment basis, feeling, yeah,
more aligned, more inspired thanI have before.
But I look at what's happeningin the world.
Uh, you know, pick an area andit seems like things are
accelerating in a really uh,scary and destabilizing way.
Um, thing that's been most topof heart for me recently has
(03:02):
been I've been spending muchtime, uh, researching what's
going on in the Amazon as I'mhelping to design a curriculum
for a leadership program downthere and, um, a lot of it's on
fire and uh, the Amazon is notsupposed to be on fire, um so so
, more so than I mean.
we have wildfires up here, whichis that's a whole tangent, but
(03:25):
the Amazon is not supposed to beon fire, and so I'm really
asking myself this question oflike is what I'm doing the right
thing and is it enough?
And how can I do work thatfeels both aligned to who I am
and inspiring and also is ameaningful contribution to what
(03:51):
I feel is like being asked of usmost loudly by the world?
Something like that.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, I was struck when you asked this question of
am I doing the right thing?
And right off the bat, it feltlike there were at least two
dimensions that I want to checkout with you.
One is just directionally, likeyou mentioned, how it's really
feeling in alignment with whoyou are and what you value.
(04:19):
That's one what's like, what'sthe direction?
And the second this is the oneI'm most curious about feels
like impact or level of impact,and I'm wondering, like, as you
say, this question of am I doingthe right thing?
How much is it?
How much of it is that questionof direction versus how much of
it is it that the impact, the?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
you know the size of the dent that you're making
impact the you know the size ofthe dent that you're making, so
to speak.
Mostly the size of the dent.
Um, yeah, there's.
There's elements of, uh, thingsthat I am doing in my life that
I feel challenging, I feel aresistance to, but mostly I feel
like more inspired and aliveand aligned than I have at any
(05:01):
other moment in my life, and wewere just talking about this
before we hit record.
But it's good to haveconversations at a depth and
with a quality, uh, and withpeople that I feel incredibly
inspired by.
That is just like I feed somuch on that quality of
conversation.
And so, yeah, I feel incrediblyblessed and grateful for, you
(05:24):
know, the moment by moment, hourby hour way that I get to spend
my time, but the place thatfeels like I'm just still asking
the question right of, in aworld with accelerating
technology, in a world ofaccelerating political
instability, you know, I, forbetter or worse, think a lot
(05:51):
about, like what my descendantswill think about my life.
Sure, you know, how can I livea life that my descendants would
be proud of and I don't knowwhat would my, what will my
descendants think of what I'mdoing right now?
I can see a world in whichthey'd be deeply aligned, and I
can see a world in which theywould have a different
perspective.
So it's definitely more aroundthe impact part than it is
around the like um, specificthings I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
That makes sense it makes total sense and I love the
fact that invoking yourdescendants, so I actually want
to maybe play with that.
If you imagine one, two, threegenerations down the line,
they're thinking back to whattheir ancestor, dom, had done.
What is it that you want themto see in terms of the impact?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I want them to see that I really tried and that I
took seriously their wellbeingand that I, yeah, wasn't too
focused on myself.
A couple of things to weave inhere.
(07:07):
There's a talk that I sawsomewhere of I think it was like
Benedict Cumberbatch reading aletter, um, written by uh,
someone working in the climatechange space, and the letter was
like a letter to his daughter,uh, saying I'm sorry, but I
(07:28):
tried essentially like sharinghis heartbreak over what's
happening in the world and andand his grief at passing that on
to to future generations.
Um, but wanting to share thatlike he's really trying, and I
think there's a way in whichthere's a part of me that
doesn't believe I'm trying hardenough for sure yeah, um, can I
(07:51):
ask like, what's creating thatevaluation?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I'm sure that the the part of you that thinks that
has some good reason for it.
Like what's, what's it makingyou think that?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
well it well, what leverage do I have?
What?
What impact am I actuallyhaving?
Um, you know, I, yeah, I workwith people as a coach that are
engaged in climate organizations.
I've been, I've had a career inclimate focused organizations
in the past.
I I lead wilderness experiencesthat bring people into more
(08:29):
connection with the naturalworld.
That's all net positive.
Own um enjoyment of myexperience without looking at
how I could be more courageous.
You know, have I ever gottenarrested in a climate protest?
(08:52):
No, uh.
Have I ever, like for anextended period of time, like
worked 14 hour days continuouslyon a climate project?
No, uh.
Have I ever put my life on theline, like millions of people
throughout history have, forthings that they really believed
in?
Yeah, no, and so I know thatthere is a deeper level of
(09:14):
sacrifice that is possible.
And, yeah, I think the theconfronting question is
essentially there's a voice inmy head that's like do you
really mean what you say?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah.
It's almost as if to say you'renot actually serious about this
unless you're putting thingsthat you really value at risk
your freedom, uh, your qualityof life, et cetera, something
like that.
Yeah, so so far you're you'redescribing some some story, that
(09:58):
kind of zooming out, in orderfor Dom to have lived a life
where he really not just tried,but like was he really meant it.
Like, part of what I hear inthat is there was more that
could have been done and thereneeds to be evidence that that
he did all that he could.
Those are my words, not yours,I just so if this doesn't fit,
(10:20):
let me know.
Um, but you're, you're sort ofseeing that there's some,
there's some space ofpossibility of of what you could
be doing that you're not inreality, and then some part of
you evaluates that as um, nothaving had, not having tried
(10:44):
hard enough.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Is that a fair summation of it?
Yeah, when you said, did hereally mean it?
That resonated with me.
I think there's like a part ofme that it's not questioning.
It's questioning not thepresence of my commitment, but
the depth of my commitment.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, what happens?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
for you when you notice the questioning.
Oh, it's incrediblyuncomfortable.
I mean, I feel incrediblyuncomfortable right now.
Mostly my experience is, Ibelieve that voice and I feel
like I'm cowardly, I'mprivileged and unwilling to give
up and acknowledge.
(11:37):
Give up that privilege and oracknowledge it, Um, yeah,
Performative.
All those things come up, Umand yeah.
So this whole line ofquestioning is is incredibly
familiar, but also deeplyuncomfortable for me.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
If you couldn't judge yourself for any of that, what
would you notice you'd befeeling If I couldn't?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
judge yourself for any of that.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
what would you notice you'd be feeling If I couldn't
judge myself?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, I mean, I feel afraid and helpless.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
That makes sense.
The world seems to be burningdown a little bit.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, it's um, I think a lot of it is
helplessness.
I feel like I don't know whatto do and I don't.
I can't see a path where myactions would like meaningfully
(13:02):
shift the, the trajectory of ofanything, and I think that's
deeply uncomfortable and I thinkthere's fear in.
There's fear in succumbing tothat, because there's part of me
(13:25):
it's like oh, if I just triedharder, then maybe you know, if
I just like tried harder, waswilling to sacrifice more, was
willing to like ask hardquestions of myself more than,
yeah, maybe I don't discover athing to do, but maybe I do.
And um, yeah, there's there'shelplessness and there's fear.
(13:48):
And then there's also a voicethat's like you haven't tried
hard enough to earn thishelplessness, something like
that.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
If we got a little more granular, what's the fear
of uh?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
it feels like there's two prongs.
There's a fear of I mean, Ihave like a image of burning
forests.
So there's a fear of ofpractically what's what's
actually happening right now.
Yeah, yeah and that continuingand, um, yeah, just the beings
(14:34):
and places and and people thatthat are being destroyed, um,
and then there's a fear of, likea fear of regret, yeah, and a
fear of my own, like cowardiceand self-deception, something
(15:02):
like that something like that.
Like it the fear that it turnsout you were a coward.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, yeah, like all that you talked about deception.
So it's like oh, like all thistime I thought I was, you know,
acting in a way that was I'llthrow out some words righteous
or productive, to use a genericword there, but it really wasn't
quite that, or it wasn't asmuch as it could have been.
I was just fooling myself.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, but I was just doing just enough to assuage my
guilt, but not enough toactually force me to make
significant sacrifices in mylife.
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
One of the things that was interesting was, um, in
listening to you, you talkedabout how, something to the
effect of not knowing whatresult your actions would create
not knowing what result youractions would create, and it
occurs to me that we're talkingabout a topic that involves the
(16:13):
entire planet and all seven plusbillion humans on it, and so,
as I'm considering that and I'mI'm feeling into that, I noticed
, oh, like there's a, there's aworld where you're never going
to know what your impact wasever, and I don't know.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I wonder, as I bring that up, what happens for you
when you hear that what happensfor you when you hear that I'm
(16:59):
reasonably familiar with that,that line of inquiry, um, and I
think it's it's both true and uhand limited, but yeah, it's
true.
Like all, I can never know theripples that I create.
And I think, particularly, Ifeel like the classic example of
this is like being a highschool teacher.
You know, you you probablydon't know all the ways that you
impact the students, that thatyou work with one on one, and so
(17:20):
you can, you can be, you know,having a like a butterfly effect
in the world and and never beable to see it or measure it
right.
And that's true, that's totallytrue.
Um, and some people move theworld a lot, uh, and whether you
want to call them hyper agentsor whatever other model, there
(17:46):
are people that I can canrationally see, uh, to try to do
something like that.
I'm, yeah, like stepping,stepping away from what is
(18:15):
actually being called for, andthen, obviously, I'm like
suspicious of my own ego andlike desire for sure, like
grandiosity and stuff in that,but that's totally here yeah,
and I and I noticed just justnow, as you were describing,
that your, your energy reallylike popped for a moment.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It was just like there was something in there,
there was like a fire in there.
I wonder, like if we justplayed with that for a second,
so if you were just followingthat and and we were just
considering like the the boldestthing that Dom could imagine
himself doing, or not evenimagine himself doing just the
(18:56):
boldest thing possible, I don'tknow Like what would that look
like for you.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I will answer that question.
The thing that I want to voiceis about the like where the
energy sort of came from, uh,which it feels actually coming
from anger.
Yeah, there's like a part of methat wants to refute that like
argument of oh, you never know,you never know your full impact.
Yeah, uh, because there's a partof me that is suspicious that
that's like a way of keeping,keeping me or people small um
(19:37):
and and I don't want to go downthat rabbit hole, but like I
think that's where that energycame from is like fuck that,
like I okay, yeah, and so, um, I.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
I don't mind it.
I wonder if you were just toallow yourself to just go say
fuck that and follow whereverthat is going to lead you.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah.
So you asked the questionwhat's the boldest thing?
I think the boldest thing wouldbe sort of like taking
(20:22):
seriously that we as humanshumans need to remember how to
be in meaningful and consistentharmony and partnership with the
natural world, recognizing thatI don't know very much about
that.
Still, I know probably morethan your average person plucked
off the street, but there areso many wisdom holders and
(20:45):
teachers and cultures andlineages that have been asking
this question for a long timeand I could be so much more
diligent about apprenticing tothose teachers, like a
(21:09):
sacrificing of my own ego forsome amount of time so that I
can then come back and be ameaningful voice in the shift
that's needed.
So it's sort of being pulled insort of two directions.
So it's sort of.
It's sort of being pulled insort of two directions.
One is like much deeperapprenticeship and humble study,
(21:34):
yeah, and then the other one islike then you know, courageous
and consistent and powerful,like truth telling, and I think
right now I'm sort of there's,there's a voice in my head that
tells me that I'm like sort ofhalfway, like I'm half, like I'm
half in both of those, butthere's like a, there's like a
(21:57):
deepening into both.
That is that is required.
Um, and maybe also worth notingthat, like there's, it feels
like there's a block of somekind around.
Uh, you know projects thatwould be more maybe like
(22:20):
practical in some way.
Like, oh, I can imagine aproject where I just try to like
do whatever the hell I can tomobilize a bunch of money to
rainforest protection efforts orto, you know, buy a bunch of
land and turn it intoconservation easement and all
that, and it just feels theblock that comes up is like, oh,
that's so far out of what Iknow how to do and so far out of
(22:44):
what actually feels exciting tome, that my, it just feels like
my likelihood of success ispretty low.
Um, yeah, but yeah, that's likeanother sort of thought loop
that comes up.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
It seems pretty normal to feel hesitant about
something that you don't know alot about and feels like the
chances of success are low.
And yet you spoke about hyperagents yeah, totally so.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Then what was?
Where's the limiting belief inthat?
How hard could it be to figureout that stuff, you know?
Speaker 1 (23:19):
all that so clearly you can see that like
intellectually.
I wonder, beyond that or underthat, if we can maybe further
investigate the block thatyou're noticing.
What can you see in it ornotice about it, just as you're
(23:42):
present to it?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
It really doesn't sound very fun at all, like.
I find it so much moreinteresting and engaging and
(24:06):
aligning and think I have muchmore of a talent for
conversation, for, like, uh,experiences that involve the
physical world and embodiment,like I just am.
I enjoy it so much more and Ithink I'm so much better than
your average person at coaching,guiding those type of things,
(24:33):
rather than, yeah, I guess,whatever, the alternative is
Building more of an organizationscale project.
Um, that I guess involves moreof these like annoying
(24:59):
nitty-gritty details that Idon't enjoy attending to, um,
but then, yeah, it comes rightback to the question of like, oh
, am I just, you know, being acoward and I'm unwilling to wade
into things that areuncomfortable but it does feel
(25:21):
like we're.
you know, I'm like the tensionis between like deepening into
the thing that I'm currentlydoing, which is very like
tangible, and then this likevague other thing, uh, that I
it's, it's not tangible.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
What's keeping you from deepening into the current
thing?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
nothing, um, there's nothing really standing in the
way.
I think it would just requiremore discipline and humility.
(26:22):
Okay, and, and a longer timehorizon, um, those things,
particularly the longer timehorizon piece, feels a little
like tender and sensitive to mebecause I'm also balancing, you
(26:43):
know, questions of you knowwanting to be cash flow positive
consistently.
Uh and yeah, navigate like theum, building a life sure.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
So you said that there's nothing standing in the
way, but I think there are somethings that that feel like their
intention, from what I hear youtalked about.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I guess it's a matter of degree, you know.
Yeah, they're like certainlyopportunities, with many of
which I'm taking, to sort ofdeepen into apprenticeship with
people that I really respectaround this stuff and continue
to learn how to be a morecourageous and aligned voice in
(27:42):
the world.
Yeah, so it's not like acomplete that.
You know that direction isn't acomplete.
You know, pivot it's sort of adeepening and a dropping into
more.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Like.
The thing that comes up for meis some sense that you, whatever
you're doing, you want to forlack of a better term be all in
on it.
Because at least the way thatthis comes across to me is this
sense of like, simply putself-doubt, some perspective
that you have on yourself whereyou're just like I don't know,
(28:37):
this thing I'm doing, thisdirection I'm taking, is not
enough.
And then the movie that goes onin my head is here's dom, who
could do any number of thingsbut in fact he's not actually
committing to a particulardirection because, precisely
because he's sort of swirling inthis, like I don't think what,
(28:58):
whatever I'm doing, is enoughthe not enough thing?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
totally yeah, that's uh and it's.
I think it's.
Less I'm not enough and moreI'm not doing enough.
How would you know if you did?
Speaker 1 (29:17):
How would you know if you were doing enough?
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I don't have like a benchmark for you, uh in, but
something like more than whatI'm doing right now, uh-huh, by
a lot, uh, and and and.
To your point about, um, like,oh, maybe the the question
around enoughness is likekeeping me stuck here.
(30:10):
I think I I don't feel stuck.
I feel I feel like I actuallydo have a pretty clear sense of
of at least what the project isthat I'm engaging in right now,
and and and that work is, yeah,again, incredibly enlivening and
inspiring and I'm I'm more litup and aligned with the work
(30:37):
I've been doing now than I everhave been before my life and I'm
like still sort of skeptical ofof it, something like that is
your end goal to eliminate theskepticism great question my end
(31:23):
goal is to feel like I matter.
What makes you think you don'tmatter, right in this very
moment?
I mean again I think it's amatter.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
It's a question of degree, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
do I matter more than zero?
Of course.
Do I matter less than someonewho can mobilize hundreds of
millions of dollars forconservation projects or for oil
extraction projects?
You're about to run into thematter.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Enough problem again.
Yeah, totally.
It occurs to me that whatyou're describing is almost
similar to the game that peopleplay around how much money they
earned in their bank account.
They earn $20 million.
It's like, well, is that enough?
Obviously, dollars are not thesame as rainforest preservation,
(32:35):
but it seems like it's directlymoving you in the same path.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
In terms of how you're feeling about it all, I
don't disagree yeah.
(33:01):
Yeah, I think there's yeah.
What comes up to me then is istelling myself this story a
recipe for perpetualdissatisfaction?
Maybe is telling myself thisstory a pathway towards possibly
creating more of a positiveimpact for the natural world?
(33:26):
In my lifetime, I could tellmyself.
I could see a world where theanswer is yes.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
And then is that ultimately better?
And then I think I come back tothe story of like, uh, what am
I actually willing to sacrifice?
I don't know.
I mean, I I feel just to tovoice a meta thing like I feel
self-conscious of, of a sessionlike this being recorded,
(33:57):
because I'm like have all thestories in my head of, yeah,
self-importance and all thesethings, and so there's there's
layers and layers and layers tothis, and I also think there's
(34:24):
something worth voicing around.
So it's been.
I would say like sixth grade iswhen I had like a very intense
experience of feeling, like Istarted to understand what's
generally going on in our world,and particularly from a climate
change and environmentalperspective.
And so it's been 18 years.
Uh, in those 18 years, therehave only been two moments in
(34:51):
which just a problem's biggerthan climate change, but only
been two moments when carbonever went down at all, uh, in
terms of our emissions per year,and that was uh, 2008 financial
crisis and uh, covid.
And so there is a way tointerpret that essentially like
everything that anyone has everdone to try to slow or decrease
(35:12):
our like carbon emissions hasn'tworked.
Yeah, over my entire lifetime.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Hard to know what to do with that as well.
Yeah, I can feel that there'sjust the enormity of that.
It's like there's there's afeeling that there's no stopping
it yeah, and that's thehelplessness, yeah what occurs
(35:58):
to me in this moment is whatmight be possible if we play
with a few ands Meaning.
What if you allowed yourself tofeel helpless?
And what if the effort tocombat climate change was never
(36:20):
enough and you also knew thatDom mattered?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
So I can, yeah, I can feel the helplessness I can
(37:15):
feel there's, I can feel thelike what comes when feeling to?
I think you said something likeclimate change as a proxy for
all the other environmentalissues.
Yeah, uh, can't be stopped.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Oh, I didn't say that .
What did you say?
I said the work will never beenough.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
The work will never be enough, yeah, yeah.
And then there's then the, thelike anger comes back, yeah, of
like this is, this is stupid.
(38:00):
I'm just like spinning around,navel gazing, yeah, and like
there's, there's's gotta be likea like a fierce, like stand to
take somewhere, and and there'sgotta be like some.
I don't know, I mean, uh, Idon't know if you ever watch war
movies, but they just came outwith uh, the like latest series
(38:22):
in the installation of like bandof brothers, the Pacific, and
then the latest one was mastersof the air.
Um, about the bombers.
My grandpa was in those uhbombers, and so he flew 35
missions over germany, at leastat one point, you know they had
a casualty rate of 10 percent.
So that means you're onlyexpected to live 10 missions,
(38:42):
right, what am I doing?
Live 10 missions, right, whatam I doing?
Am I crawling into a ballturret to go try and stand for
what I think is right?
And I?
I get that it's not a perfectcomparison, but I think there's
(39:03):
like a.
Yeah, I mean, we've been herebefore, but suspicion of my own
my own cowardice.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
I guess part of my curiosity is making me wonder,
like I mean, the anger is there,I love it, it's great.
I guess I'm wondering like,what do you want to do with it?
Speaker 2 (39:35):
there's like two things that come up.
There's like channel it andthen there's express it.
So there's channel it into likea, a project, um, that could be
meaningful, and there's notlike a other than like deepening
(39:57):
into the things that I'mcurrently doing.
There's not like an immediatesort of project that that calls
to me on that front yeah, butthere certainly are many options
.
And then there's like anexpress it, which is sort of
voice, what comes up for mearound this to the world, and
there's a feeling of, yeah, likesuspicion of my own reactivity
(40:25):
or like wanting to likealchemize it a little bit more.
And I think that's where theaspect around continuing to
deepen, to like mentors and, uh,elders and like continue,
continue to like be initiated insome way before like
necessarily pretending thatactually, what?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
what makes you suspicious of your own anger?
Just just now, what I, I thinkI saw was oh, you started to go
in that direction, but like, no,but this isn't like, somehow
this is not ready.
This is not appropriate in someway.
There was, there was some lensthat you took just now of your
own anger.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
That was just like well, no, I gotta, I gotta go
back to my teachers about thisyeah, I think there's a
suspicion of my own integrity,like, yeah, I think there's a
suspicion of my own integrity,like, yeah, there's like a
(41:35):
suspicion of am I really walkingthe walk If I'm going to talk,
the talk, you know, am I?
Am I living a life that's, uh,as ferociously in service as I
actually think the intensity andgravity of our situation
(41:56):
warrants, or am I sort of likewithin the bounds?
Am I like within the bounds ofliving a super comfortable life,
willing to do, you know, justenough, to be sort of kind of
doing something helpful, but notwilling to to really dig in and
(42:17):
I think, like envisioningsharing really directly and
really vocally and reallypublicly about all this.
It just brings up likesuspicion of my own integrity,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
That's interesting.
Let me just play that back.
So if I, if Dom allows himselfto express his anger out in
public about these things thathe cares about, he will view
that expression with suspicion.
Some part of him will thinkthis is not actually authentic
or an integrity.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, I mean to bring it a little bit more practical,
okay, and I do share stuff.
I share about my feelingsaround what's happening in our
world.
But I imagine a world in whichI like ramp that up, some
response being like, well, howmany flights have you been on
(43:19):
this year?
And uh, the answer would bemore than a few, and I guess
there's just this feeling ofagain, we're obviously going in
circles here, but there's thetheme of imperfection, there's a
(43:47):
theme of not doing enough andand there's a there's a longing
for this is a phrase that'scoming back to me that I
remember was was really presentfor me like two or three years
ago, a phrase of like, likewanting to have, longing for
(44:08):
coherence, like to be coherentin what I think is happening in
the world and then what myactions are because of it.
And I feel like there's adisconnect between between those
two things, between those twothings.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Forgive me if this feels overly simplistic, but it
seems like you want to live in aworld of black and white, when
really you're in the gray.
You describe how I could postsomething, share something in
public and then be questioned onit, have someone point back to
like all the ways in which I'mnot perfect and use that as a
(44:50):
reason for why I shouldn't sayanything at all, because either
I can be some sort of perfectbeing that is always in
alignment of this cause or I'mnot.
But there's a binary-ness tothat, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Thank you for pointing that out.
That feels really helpful.
Yeah, I mean so.
Then the inquiry that comes upfor me is like how can I?
What happens if I just embracethe messiness of it all?
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, when I hold that, there's a softening,
there's a softening.
There's a little bit morecompassion that comes in.
(46:01):
There's a little bit morepatience that comes in.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
I want to invite you to just take the compassion and
patience and see if you can justamplify it a little bit, just
as you're sitting in the space.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, yeah, I can just feel that there's just a
little bit more room, more roomto dance, more room to not have
(47:03):
to know.
Hmm, not have to know yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Do you remember what your original question was going
into this?
Speaker 2 (47:30):
No Do you.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
If I'm honest, I'm having a hard time recalling.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
I don't remember word for word, but I remember the
general gist of it.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah, yeah, remember word for word, but I remember
the general gist.
Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So just if you put yourattention back to the general
gist, how is it sitting in yoursystem currently?
Speaker 2 (47:55):
I mean, it's the most cliche thing in the entire
world, but uh, cliches exist fora reason.
I mean, I think rilke mighthave been on to something when
he was talking about living thequestions, and this is something
that I have been told manytimes by mentors and teachers.
(48:15):
But this tension that I'mfeeling is exactly what I'm
supposed to be feeling and theonly way to get it wrong would
be to numb it.
But it's like I am, and Iappreciate having the space in
this conversation to give voiceto the chorus of uh, of parts
that are engaged in this, inthis uh stew here, um, but, but
(49:01):
yeah, how can I like allowmyself to be cooked by the
incoherence, by not being ableto be in black and white, by
perpetually not being able to doenough by the fact that.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
I do.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
I am sort of foundationally helpless in some
way, and not have to resolveinto a major key immediately,
which is a horrificallyunsatisfying answer and feels
right.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah, living in that tension is definitely
uncomfortable, but one of thethings that occurs to me in
having this conversation withyou is that that discomfort is
actually what you're wanting.
Say more, say more it occurs tome that the some version of that
(50:01):
tension that we're describingis that self-questioning or like
is this enough, et cetera.
And I think a lot of our timehas been spent on investigating
it and there might've been somesubtle agenda to like go and fix
it.
But there's also a sense on myend that the tension is actually
(50:28):
quite generative.
Right, there's like there'ssome, some part of you that
senses there's more to do.
Um, yeah, there's more.
I could be putting my attentioninto my resources, my sacrifice
, et cetera, and there's a pullthere and it's neither good nor
(50:49):
bad, but it's, it's there.
It's it's moving you in acertain direction.
Um, so, in that sense, when Isaid I think that's part of what
you're wanting, it's, it seemslike, on some level, it is like
the force that's acting on youto, to, to be an integrity, if
(51:11):
that makes sense.
Yeah, I think that's well put.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Yeah, I, it doesn't feel consciously like I want the
discomfort and it does feellike a generative force.
It does feel like a generativeforce and so I think that's sort
of where the anger comes around.
The like, oh, you'll never knowyour impact.
(51:35):
Explorations Like no, I need tobe asking myself this hard
question and I need to be alittle bit more rigorous with
myself around this, even ifthere is absolutely truth in
that perspective of you'll neverknow your impact.
So it's like, yeah, being inthe fire of the tension, Right?
Speaker 1 (51:58):
You said like cooking in that soup, I think something
like that.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Yeah, in the cauldron , something like that.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
Yeah that, yeah, in the cauldron, something like
that.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
yeah, well, just as we start to wrap here, dom I
(52:36):
wanted to check in, just see,like, how this conversation is
leaving you and if there's, uh,I feel just returned to, I think
, a a truth and a perspectivethat I have been told and been
shown many times.
Um, but it's easy to lose sightof, I feel pretty exposed, uh,
with a conversation like thisgoing out into the world.
Um, uh, but hopefully theremight be people out there that
resonate with some of these samedynamics.
(52:57):
Um, yeah, it sort of it feelslike ending a song on a minor
key, but in a very appropriateway.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Seems like a great place to end.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Beautiful.
Yeah, thank you so much, Brian.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
There's something powerful about watching someone
sit with the hard questions Am Imaking enough of a difference?
Should I be doing more?
These aren't just philosophicalmusings for Dom, they're
questions that hit the core ofhis work and identity.
What made this sessionfascinating was seeing how the
very tension Dom was fightingagainst might actually be
serving him, that constantquestioning, that fierce desire
(53:41):
to do more.
It's not just self-doubt orguilt.
When he stopped trying toresolve the tension and instead
allowed himself to feel both thehelplessness and the fire that
the tension brought, somethinginteresting happened.
The pressure to be enoughstarted to loosen its grip.
One of the things I oftensuggest to my clients is to
notice what internal feelingsthey are resisting and move
(54:02):
closer to them instead.
This often yields surprisingresults.
Rather than try to relieve thetension that comes with am I
doing enough, perhaps we canlearn to use that tension as
fuel to propel us forward.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of Slid On to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed it, I'd reallyappreciate you giving it a like,
a subscribe or rating in yourfavorite podcasting app.
(54:22):
And if you're a founderinterested in learning more
about how coaching can help youreach the next level, please
contact me at dashleadershipcom.
Okay, see you at the next one.
When the world feels like it's burning down all
around us, how do we know ifwe're doing enough?
Is running leadership programsand coaching people really
making a difference when theAmazon rainforest is literally
on fire?
Welcome to Slow Down, to SpeedUp, where we have real one-time
coaching sessions with startupfounders working through the
challenges of leadership.
I'm your host and executivecoach, Brian Wang.
(00:20):
Today's session gets intosomething that many of us
wrestle with that gap betweenwhat we say matters most to us
and what we're actually doingabout it.
Don Franks is a wilderness guideand leadership coach who's
dedicated his career to healinghumanity's relationship with the
natural world, but lately he'sbeen questioning everything.
Should he be doing somethingbigger, more direct?
(00:40):
Is he just fooling himselfabout his impact?
What makes this conversationfascinating is how it reveals
the stories we tell ourselvesabout not being or doing enough.
You'll hear Dom move fromself-judgment to a deeper
understanding of how thistension, this constant
questioning, might actually beexactly what's needed to drive
meaningful change.
Whether you're running amission-driven startup or just
(01:03):
trying to make a positive impactin the world, this conversation
might help you see your ownquestions and doubts in a new
light.
Let's tune in.
Hey Dom, it's great to see you.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Good to see you as well, Brian.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yeah, so excited to sit down with you.
I know this is our very firsttime in a session, so that's
always fun for me as a coach andI'm sure for you being a coach,
and I'm sure for you being acoach and having been coached,
these first time sessions arealways fun.
So, yeah, maybe we'll just jumpright in and I wanted to ask
you what you're bringing in.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Many things, but I think a place that feels alive
to start is a question aroundimpact in the context of, like,
the scale of accelerating forcesin the world.
So this is going to be let's.
(01:58):
We'll start macro and then Ithink we'll come into the micro.
But I, for a very long time,since I was very young, have
felt like our relationship tothe natural world and our
relationship to the broaderfamily of life on this planet is
the most important thing andthe way that we're generally in
(02:18):
misalignment with that world,and so I worked in climate
focused tech companies.
I worked in other sort of areastrying to be of support in
healing that divide, and thatthen led me into my current work
as a wilderness guide andleadership coach.
So, with that as context, Ithink where I sit right now is
feeling incredibly enlivened bythe work that I'm doing and,
(02:41):
like, from a moment by momentbasis, feeling more aligned,
more inspired than I have before.
Um, and like, from a moment bymoment basis, feeling, yeah,
more aligned, more inspired thanI have before.
But I look at what's happeningin the world.
Uh, you know, pick an area andit seems like things are
accelerating in a really uh,scary and destabilizing way.
Um, thing that's been most topof heart for me recently has
(03:02):
been I've been spending muchtime, uh, researching what's
going on in the Amazon as I'mhelping to design a curriculum
for a leadership program downthere and, um, a lot of it's on
fire and uh, the Amazon is notsupposed to be on fire, um so so
, more so than I mean.
we have wildfires up here, whichis that's a whole tangent, but
(03:25):
the Amazon is not supposed to beon fire, and so I'm really
asking myself this question oflike is what I'm doing the right
thing and is it enough?
And how can I do work thatfeels both aligned to who I am
and inspiring and also is ameaningful contribution to what
(03:51):
I feel is like being asked of usmost loudly by the world?
Something like that.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, I was struck when you asked this question of
am I doing the right thing?
And right off the bat, it feltlike there were at least two
dimensions that I want to checkout with you.
One is just directionally, likeyou mentioned, how it's really
feeling in alignment with whoyou are and what you value.
(04:19):
That's one what's like, what'sthe direction?
And the second this is the oneI'm most curious about feels
like impact or level of impact,and I'm wondering, like, as you
say, this question of am I doingthe right thing?
How much is it?
How much of it is that questionof direction versus how much of
it is it that the impact, the?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
you know the size of the dent that you're making
impact the you know the size ofthe dent that you're making, so
to speak.
Mostly the size of the dent.
Um, yeah, there's.
There's elements of, uh, thingsthat I am doing in my life that
I feel challenging, I feel aresistance to, but mostly I feel
like more inspired and aliveand aligned than I have at any
(05:01):
other moment in my life, and wewere just talking about this
before we hit record.
But it's good to haveconversations at a depth and
with a quality, uh, and withpeople that I feel incredibly
inspired by.
That is just like I feed somuch on that quality of
conversation.
And so, yeah, I feel incrediblyblessed and grateful for, you
(05:24):
know, the moment by moment, hourby hour way that I get to spend
my time, but the place thatfeels like I'm just still asking
the question right of, in aworld with accelerating
technology, in a world ofaccelerating political
instability, you know, I, forbetter or worse, think a lot
(05:51):
about, like what my descendantswill think about my life.
Sure, you know, how can I livea life that my descendants would
be proud of and I don't knowwhat would my, what will my
descendants think of what I'mdoing right now?
I can see a world in whichthey'd be deeply aligned, and I
can see a world in which theywould have a different
perspective.
So it's definitely more aroundthe impact part than it is
around the like um, specificthings I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
That makes sense it makes total sense and I love the
fact that invoking yourdescendants, so I actually want
to maybe play with that.
If you imagine one, two, threegenerations down the line,
they're thinking back to whattheir ancestor, dom, had done.
What is it that you want themto see in terms of the impact?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I want them to see that I really tried and that I
took seriously their wellbeingand that I, yeah, wasn't too
focused on myself.
A couple of things to weave inhere.
(07:07):
There's a talk that I sawsomewhere of I think it was like
Benedict Cumberbatch reading aletter, um, written by uh,
someone working in the climatechange space, and the letter was
like a letter to his daughter,uh, saying I'm sorry, but I
(07:28):
tried essentially like sharinghis heartbreak over what's
happening in the world and andand his grief at passing that on
to to future generations.
Um, but wanting to share thatlike he's really trying, and I
think there's a way in whichthere's a part of me that
doesn't believe I'm trying hardenough for sure yeah, um, can I
(07:51):
ask like, what's creating thatevaluation?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I'm sure that the the part of you that thinks that
has some good reason for it.
Like what's, what's it makingyou think that?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
well it well, what leverage do I have?
What?
What impact am I actuallyhaving?
Um, you know, I, yeah, I workwith people as a coach that are
engaged in climate organizations.
I've been, I've had a career inclimate focused organizations
in the past.
I I lead wilderness experiencesthat bring people into more
(08:29):
connection with the naturalworld.
That's all net positive.
Own um enjoyment of myexperience without looking at
how I could be more courageous.
You know, have I ever gottenarrested in a climate protest?
(08:52):
No, uh.
Have I ever, like for anextended period of time, like
worked 14 hour days continuouslyon a climate project?
No, uh.
Have I ever put my life on theline, like millions of people
throughout history have, forthings that they really believed
in?
Yeah, no, and so I know thatthere is a deeper level of
(09:14):
sacrifice that is possible.
And, yeah, I think the theconfronting question is
essentially there's a voice inmy head that's like do you
really mean what you say?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah.
It's almost as if to say you'renot actually serious about this
unless you're putting thingsthat you really value at risk
your freedom, uh, your qualityof life, et cetera, something
like that.
Yeah, so so far you're you'redescribing some some story, that
(09:58):
kind of zooming out, in orderfor Dom to have lived a life
where he really not just tried,but like was he really meant it.
Like, part of what I hear inthat is there was more that
could have been done and thereneeds to be evidence that that
he did all that he could.
Those are my words, not yours,I just so if this doesn't fit,
(10:20):
let me know.
Um, but you're, you're sort ofseeing that there's some,
there's some space ofpossibility of of what you could
be doing that you're not inreality, and then some part of
you evaluates that as um, nothaving had, not having tried
(10:44):
hard enough.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Is that a fair summation of it?
Yeah, when you said, did hereally mean it?
That resonated with me.
I think there's like a part ofme that it's not questioning.
It's questioning not thepresence of my commitment, but
the depth of my commitment.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, what happens?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
for you when you notice the questioning.
Oh, it's incrediblyuncomfortable.
I mean, I feel incrediblyuncomfortable right now.
Mostly my experience is, Ibelieve that voice and I feel
like I'm cowardly, I'mprivileged and unwilling to give
up and acknowledge.
(11:37):
Give up that privilege and oracknowledge it, Um, yeah,
Performative.
All those things come up, Umand yeah.
So this whole line ofquestioning is is incredibly
familiar, but also deeplyuncomfortable for me.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
If you couldn't judge yourself for any of that, what
would you notice you'd befeeling If I couldn't?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
judge yourself for any of that.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
what would you notice you'd be feeling If I couldn't
judge myself?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, I mean, I feel afraid and helpless.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
That makes sense.
The world seems to be burningdown a little bit.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, it's um, I think a lot of it is
helplessness.
I feel like I don't know whatto do and I don't.
I can't see a path where myactions would like meaningfully
(13:02):
shift the, the trajectory of ofanything, and I think that's
deeply uncomfortable and I thinkthere's fear in.
There's fear in succumbing tothat, because there's part of me
(13:25):
it's like oh, if I just triedharder, then maybe you know, if
I just like tried harder, waswilling to sacrifice more, was
willing to like ask hardquestions of myself more than,
yeah, maybe I don't discover athing to do, but maybe I do.
And um, yeah, there's there'shelplessness and there's fear.
(13:48):
And then there's also a voicethat's like you haven't tried
hard enough to earn thishelplessness, something like
that.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
If we got a little more granular, what's the fear
of uh?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
it feels like there's two prongs.
There's a fear of I mean, Ihave like a image of burning
forests.
So there's a fear of ofpractically what's what's
actually happening right now.
Yeah, yeah and that continuingand, um, yeah, just the beings
(14:34):
and places and and people thatthat are being destroyed, um,
and then there's a fear of, likea fear of regret, yeah, and a
fear of my own, like cowardiceand self-deception, something
(15:02):
like that something like that.
Like it the fear that it turnsout you were a coward.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, yeah, like all that you talked about deception.
So it's like oh, like all thistime I thought I was, you know,
acting in a way that was I'llthrow out some words righteous
or productive, to use a genericword there, but it really wasn't
quite that, or it wasn't asmuch as it could have been.
I was just fooling myself.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, but I was just doing just enough to assuage my
guilt, but not enough toactually force me to make
significant sacrifices in mylife.
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
One of the things that was interesting was, um, in
listening to you, you talkedabout how, something to the
effect of not knowing whatresult your actions would create
not knowing what result youractions would create, and it
occurs to me that we're talkingabout a topic that involves the
(16:13):
entire planet and all seven plusbillion humans on it, and so,
as I'm considering that and I'mI'm feeling into that, I noticed
, oh, like there's a, there's aworld where you're never going
to know what your impact wasever, and I don't know.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I wonder, as I bring that up, what happens for you
when you hear that what happensfor you when you hear that I'm
(16:59):
reasonably familiar with that,that line of inquiry, um, and I
think it's it's both true and uhand limited, but yeah, it's
true.
Like all, I can never know theripples that I create.
And I think, particularly, Ifeel like the classic example of
this is like being a highschool teacher.
You know, you you probablydon't know all the ways that you
impact the students, that thatyou work with one on one, and so
(17:20):
you can, you can be, you know,having a like a butterfly effect
in the world and and never beable to see it or measure it
right.
And that's true, that's totallytrue.
Um, and some people move theworld a lot, uh, and whether you
want to call them hyper agentsor whatever other model, there
(17:46):
are people that I can canrationally see, uh, to try to do
something like that.
I'm, yeah, like stepping,stepping away from what is
(18:15):
actually being called for, andthen, obviously, I'm like
suspicious of my own ego andlike desire for sure, like
grandiosity and stuff in that,but that's totally here yeah,
and I and I noticed just justnow, as you were describing,
that your, your energy reallylike popped for a moment.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It was just like there was something in there,
there was like a fire in there.
I wonder, like if we justplayed with that for a second,
so if you were just followingthat and and we were just
considering like the the boldestthing that Dom could imagine
himself doing, or not evenimagine himself doing just the
(18:56):
boldest thing possible, I don'tknow Like what would that look
like for you.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I will answer that question.
The thing that I want to voiceis about the like where the
energy sort of came from, uh,which it feels actually coming
from anger.
Yeah, there's like a part of methat wants to refute that like
argument of oh, you never know,you never know your full impact.
Yeah, uh, because there's a partof me that is suspicious that
that's like a way of keeping,keeping me or people small um
(19:37):
and and I don't want to go downthat rabbit hole, but like I
think that's where that energycame from is like fuck that,
like I okay, yeah, and so, um, I.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
I don't mind it.
I wonder if you were just toallow yourself to just go say
fuck that and follow whereverthat is going to lead you.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah.
So you asked the questionwhat's the boldest thing?
I think the boldest thing wouldbe sort of like taking
(20:22):
seriously that we as humanshumans need to remember how to
be in meaningful and consistentharmony and partnership with the
natural world, recognizing thatI don't know very much about
that.
Still, I know probably morethan your average person plucked
off the street, but there areso many wisdom holders and
(20:45):
teachers and cultures andlineages that have been asking
this question for a long timeand I could be so much more
diligent about apprenticing tothose teachers, like a
(21:09):
sacrificing of my own ego forsome amount of time so that I
can then come back and be ameaningful voice in the shift
that's needed.
So it's sort of being pulled insort of two directions.
So it's sort of.
It's sort of being pulled insort of two directions.
One is like much deeperapprenticeship and humble study,
(21:34):
yeah, and then the other one islike then you know, courageous
and consistent and powerful,like truth telling, and I think
right now I'm sort of there's,there's a voice in my head that
tells me that I'm like sort ofhalfway, like I'm half, like I'm
half in both of those, butthere's like a, there's like a
(21:57):
deepening into both.
That is that is required.
Um, and maybe also worth notingthat, like there's, it feels
like there's a block of somekind around.
Uh, you know projects thatwould be more maybe like
(22:20):
practical in some way.
Like, oh, I can imagine aproject where I just try to like
do whatever the hell I can tomobilize a bunch of money to
rainforest protection efforts orto, you know, buy a bunch of
land and turn it intoconservation easement and all
that, and it just feels theblock that comes up is like, oh,
that's so far out of what Iknow how to do and so far out of
(22:44):
what actually feels exciting tome, that my, it just feels like
my likelihood of success ispretty low.
Um, yeah, but yeah, that's likeanother sort of thought loop
that comes up.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
It seems pretty normal to feel hesitant about
something that you don't know alot about and feels like the
chances of success are low.
And yet you spoke about hyperagents yeah, totally so.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Then what was?
Where's the limiting belief inthat?
How hard could it be to figureout that stuff, you know?
Speaker 1 (23:19):
all that so clearly you can see that like
intellectually.
I wonder, beyond that or underthat, if we can maybe further
investigate the block thatyou're noticing.
What can you see in it ornotice about it, just as you're
(23:42):
present to it?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
It really doesn't sound very fun at all, like.
I find it so much moreinteresting and engaging and
(24:06):
aligning and think I have muchmore of a talent for
conversation, for, like, uh,experiences that involve the
physical world and embodiment,like I just am.
I enjoy it so much more and Ithink I'm so much better than
your average person at coaching,guiding those type of things,
(24:33):
rather than, yeah, I guess,whatever, the alternative is
Building more of an organizationscale project.
Um, that I guess involves moreof these like annoying
(24:59):
nitty-gritty details that Idon't enjoy attending to, um,
but then, yeah, it comes rightback to the question of like, oh
, am I just, you know, being acoward and I'm unwilling to wade
into things that areuncomfortable but it does feel
(25:21):
like we're.
you know, I'm like the tensionis between like deepening into
the thing that I'm currentlydoing, which is very like
tangible, and then this likevague other thing, uh, that I
it's, it's not tangible.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
What's keeping you from deepening into the current
thing?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
nothing, um, there's nothing really standing in the
way.
I think it would just requiremore discipline and humility.
(26:22):
Okay, and, and a longer timehorizon, um, those things,
particularly the longer timehorizon piece, feels a little
like tender and sensitive to mebecause I'm also balancing, you
(26:43):
know, questions of you knowwanting to be cash flow positive
consistently.
Uh and yeah, navigate like theum, building a life sure.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
So you said that there's nothing standing in the
way, but I think there are somethings that that feel like their
intention, from what I hear youtalked about.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I guess it's a matter of degree, you know.
Yeah, they're like certainlyopportunities, with many of
which I'm taking, to sort ofdeepen into apprenticeship with
people that I really respectaround this stuff and continue
to learn how to be a morecourageous and aligned voice in
(27:42):
the world.
Yeah, so it's not like acomplete that.
You know that direction isn't acomplete.
You know, pivot it's sort of adeepening and a dropping into
more.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Like.
The thing that comes up for meis some sense that you, whatever
you're doing, you want to forlack of a better term be all in
on it.
Because at least the way thatthis comes across to me is this
sense of like, simply putself-doubt, some perspective
that you have on yourself whereyou're just like I don't know,
(28:37):
this thing I'm doing, thisdirection I'm taking, is not
enough.
And then the movie that goes onin my head is here's dom, who
could do any number of thingsbut in fact he's not actually
committing to a particulardirection because, precisely
because he's sort of swirling inthis, like I don't think what,
(28:58):
whatever I'm doing, is enoughthe not enough thing?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
totally yeah, that's uh and it's.
I think it's.
Less I'm not enough and moreI'm not doing enough.
How would you know if you did?
Speaker 1 (29:17):
How would you know if you were doing enough?
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I don't have like a benchmark for you, uh in, but
something like more than whatI'm doing right now, uh-huh, by
a lot, uh, and and and.
To your point about, um, like,oh, maybe the the question
around enoughness is likekeeping me stuck here.
(30:10):
I think I I don't feel stuck.
I feel I feel like I actuallydo have a pretty clear sense of
of at least what the project isthat I'm engaging in right now,
and and and that work is, yeah,again, incredibly enlivening and
inspiring and I'm I'm more litup and aligned with the work
(30:37):
I've been doing now than I everhave been before my life and I'm
like still sort of skeptical ofof it, something like that is
your end goal to eliminate theskepticism great question my end
(31:23):
goal is to feel like I matter.
What makes you think you don'tmatter, right in this very
moment?
I mean again I think it's amatter.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
It's a question of degree, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
do I matter more than zero?
Of course.
Do I matter less than someonewho can mobilize hundreds of
millions of dollars forconservation projects or for oil
extraction projects?
You're about to run into thematter.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Enough problem again.
Yeah, totally.
It occurs to me that whatyou're describing is almost
similar to the game that peopleplay around how much money they
earned in their bank account.
They earn $20 million.
It's like, well, is that enough?
Obviously, dollars are not thesame as rainforest preservation,
(32:35):
but it seems like it's directlymoving you in the same path.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
In terms of how you're feeling about it all, I
don't disagree yeah.
(33:01):
Yeah, I think there's yeah.
What comes up to me then is istelling myself this story a
recipe for perpetualdissatisfaction?
Maybe is telling myself thisstory a pathway towards possibly
creating more of a positiveimpact for the natural world?
(33:26):
In my lifetime, I could tellmyself.
I could see a world where theanswer is yes.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
And then is that ultimately better?
And then I think I come back tothe story of like, uh, what am
I actually willing to sacrifice?
I don't know.
I mean, I I feel just to tovoice a meta thing like I feel
self-conscious of, of a sessionlike this being recorded,
(33:57):
because I'm like have all thestories in my head of, yeah,
self-importance and all thesethings, and so there's there's
layers and layers and layers tothis, and I also think there's
(34:24):
something worth voicing around.
So it's been.
I would say like sixth grade iswhen I had like a very intense
experience of feeling, like Istarted to understand what's
generally going on in our world,and particularly from a climate
change and environmentalperspective.
And so it's been 18 years.
Uh, in those 18 years, therehave only been two moments in
(34:51):
which just a problem's biggerthan climate change, but only
been two moments when carbonever went down at all, uh, in
terms of our emissions per year,and that was uh, 2008 financial
crisis and uh, covid.
And so there is a way tointerpret that essentially like
everything that anyone has everdone to try to slow or decrease
(35:12):
our like carbon emissions hasn'tworked.
Yeah, over my entire lifetime.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Hard to know what to do with that as well.
Yeah, I can feel that there'sjust the enormity of that.
It's like there's there's afeeling that there's no stopping
it yeah, and that's thehelplessness, yeah what occurs
(35:58):
to me in this moment is whatmight be possible if we play
with a few ands Meaning.
What if you allowed yourself tofeel helpless?
And what if the effort tocombat climate change was never
(36:20):
enough and you also knew thatDom mattered?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
So I can, yeah, I can feel the helplessness I can
(37:15):
feel there's, I can feel thelike what comes when feeling to?
I think you said something likeclimate change as a proxy for
all the other environmentalissues.
Yeah, uh, can't be stopped.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Oh, I didn't say that .
What did you say?
I said the work will never beenough.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
The work will never be enough, yeah, yeah.
And then there's then the, thelike anger comes back, yeah, of
like this is, this is stupid.
(38:00):
I'm just like spinning around,navel gazing, yeah, and like
there's, there's's gotta be likea like a fierce, like stand to
take somewhere, and and there'sgotta be like some.
I don't know, I mean, uh, Idon't know if you ever watch war
movies, but they just came outwith uh, the like latest series
(38:22):
in the installation of like bandof brothers, the Pacific, and
then the latest one was mastersof the air.
Um, about the bombers.
My grandpa was in those uhbombers, and so he flew 35
missions over germany, at leastat one point, you know they had
a casualty rate of 10 percent.
So that means you're onlyexpected to live 10 missions,
(38:42):
right, what am I doing?
Live 10 missions, right, whatam I doing?
Am I crawling into a ballturret to go try and stand for
what I think is right?
And I?
I get that it's not a perfectcomparison, but I think there's
(39:03):
like a.
Yeah, I mean, we've been herebefore, but suspicion of my own
my own cowardice.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
I guess part of my curiosity is making me wonder,
like I mean, the anger is there,I love it, it's great.
I guess I'm wondering like,what do you want to do with it?
Speaker 2 (39:35):
there's like two things that come up.
There's like channel it andthen there's express it.
So there's channel it into likea, a project, um, that could be
meaningful, and there's notlike a other than like deepening
(39:57):
into the things that I'mcurrently doing.
There's not like an immediatesort of project that that calls
to me on that front yeah, butthere certainly are many options
.
And then there's like anexpress it, which is sort of
voice, what comes up for mearound this to the world, and
there's a feeling of, yeah, likesuspicion of my own reactivity
(40:25):
or like wanting to likealchemize it a little bit more.
And I think that's where theaspect around continuing to
deepen, to like mentors and, uh,elders and like continue,
continue to like be initiated insome way before like
necessarily pretending thatactually, what?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
what makes you suspicious of your own anger?
Just just now, what I, I thinkI saw was oh, you started to go
in that direction, but like, no,but this isn't like, somehow
this is not ready.
This is not appropriate in someway.
There was, there was some lensthat you took just now of your
own anger.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
That was just like well, no, I gotta, I gotta go
back to my teachers about thisyeah, I think there's a
suspicion of my own integrity,like, yeah, I think there's a
suspicion of my own integrity,like, yeah, there's like a
(41:35):
suspicion of am I really walkingthe walk If I'm going to talk,
the talk, you know, am I?
Am I living a life that's, uh,as ferociously in service as I
actually think the intensity andgravity of our situation
(41:56):
warrants, or am I sort of likewithin the bounds?
Am I like within the bounds ofliving a super comfortable life,
willing to do, you know, justenough, to be sort of kind of
doing something helpful, but notwilling to to really dig in and
(42:17):
I think, like envisioningsharing really directly and
really vocally and reallypublicly about all this.
It just brings up likesuspicion of my own integrity,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
That's interesting.
Let me just play that back.
So if I, if Dom allows himselfto express his anger out in
public about these things thathe cares about, he will view
that expression with suspicion.
Some part of him will thinkthis is not actually authentic
or an integrity.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, I mean to bring it a little bit more practical,
okay, and I do share stuff.
I share about my feelingsaround what's happening in our
world.
But I imagine a world in whichI like ramp that up, some
response being like, well, howmany flights have you been on
(43:19):
this year?
And uh, the answer would bemore than a few, and I guess
there's just this feeling ofagain, we're obviously going in
circles here, but there's thetheme of imperfection, there's a
(43:47):
theme of not doing enough andand there's a there's a longing
for this is a phrase that'scoming back to me that I
remember was was really presentfor me like two or three years
ago, a phrase of like, likewanting to have, longing for
(44:08):
coherence, like to be coherentin what I think is happening in
the world and then what myactions are because of it.
And I feel like there's adisconnect between between those
two things, between those twothings.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Forgive me if this feels overly simplistic, but it
seems like you want to live in aworld of black and white, when
really you're in the gray.
You describe how I could postsomething, share something in
public and then be questioned onit, have someone point back to
like all the ways in which I'mnot perfect and use that as a
(44:50):
reason for why I shouldn't sayanything at all, because either
I can be some sort of perfectbeing that is always in
alignment of this cause or I'mnot.
But there's a binary-ness tothat, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Thank you for pointing that out.
That feels really helpful.
Yeah, I mean so.
Then the inquiry that comes upfor me is like how can I?
What happens if I just embracethe messiness of it all?
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, when I hold that, there's a softening,
there's a softening.
There's a little bit morecompassion that comes in.
(46:01):
There's a little bit morepatience that comes in.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
I want to invite you to just take the compassion and
patience and see if you can justamplify it a little bit, just
as you're sitting in the space.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, yeah, I can just feel that there's just a
little bit more room, more roomto dance, more room to not have
(47:03):
to know.
Hmm, not have to know yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Do you remember what your original question was going
into this?
Speaker 2 (47:30):
No Do you.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
If I'm honest, I'm having a hard time recalling.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
I don't remember word for word, but I remember the
general gist of it.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah, yeah, remember word for word, but I remember
the general gist.
Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So just if you put yourattention back to the general
gist, how is it sitting in yoursystem currently?
Speaker 2 (47:55):
I mean, it's the most cliche thing in the entire
world, but uh, cliches exist fora reason.
I mean, I think rilke mighthave been on to something when
he was talking about living thequestions, and this is something
that I have been told manytimes by mentors and teachers.
(48:15):
But this tension that I'mfeeling is exactly what I'm
supposed to be feeling and theonly way to get it wrong would
be to numb it.
But it's like I am, and Iappreciate having the space in
this conversation to give voiceto the chorus of uh, of parts
that are engaged in this, inthis uh stew here, um, but, but
(49:01):
yeah, how can I like allowmyself to be cooked by the
incoherence, by not being ableto be in black and white, by
perpetually not being able to doenough by the fact that.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
I do.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
I am sort of foundationally helpless in some
way, and not have to resolveinto a major key immediately,
which is a horrificallyunsatisfying answer and feels
right.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah, living in that tension is definitely
uncomfortable, but one of thethings that occurs to me in
having this conversation withyou is that that discomfort is
actually what you're wanting.
Say more, say more it occurs tome that the some version of that
(50:01):
tension that we're describingis that self-questioning or like
is this enough, et cetera.
And I think a lot of our timehas been spent on investigating
it and there might've been somesubtle agenda to like go and fix
it.
But there's also a sense on myend that the tension is actually
(50:28):
quite generative.
Right, there's like there'ssome, some part of you that
senses there's more to do.
Um, yeah, there's more.
I could be putting my attentioninto my resources, my sacrifice
, et cetera, and there's a pullthere and it's neither good nor
(50:49):
bad, but it's, it's there.
It's it's moving you in acertain direction.
Um, so, in that sense, when Isaid I think that's part of what
you're wanting, it's, it seemslike, on some level, it is like
the force that's acting on youto, to, to be an integrity, if
(51:11):
that makes sense.
Yeah, I think that's well put.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Yeah, I, it doesn't feel consciously like I want the
discomfort and it does feellike a generative force.
It does feel like a generativeforce and so I think that's sort
of where the anger comes around.
The like, oh, you'll never knowyour impact.
(51:35):
Explorations Like no, I need tobe asking myself this hard
question and I need to be alittle bit more rigorous with
myself around this, even ifthere is absolutely truth in
that perspective of you'll neverknow your impact.
So it's like, yeah, being inthe fire of the tension, Right?
Speaker 1 (51:58):
You said like cooking in that soup, I think something
like that.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Yeah, in the cauldron , something like that.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
Yeah that, yeah, in the cauldron, something like
that.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
yeah, well, just as we start to wrap here, dom I
(52:36):
wanted to check in, just see,like, how this conversation is
leaving you and if there's, uh,I feel just returned to, I think
, a a truth and a perspectivethat I have been told and been
shown many times.
Um, but it's easy to lose sightof, I feel pretty exposed, uh,
with a conversation like thisgoing out into the world.
Um, uh, but hopefully theremight be people out there that
resonate with some of these samedynamics.
(52:57):
Um, yeah, it sort of it feelslike ending a song on a minor
key, but in a very appropriateway.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Seems like a great place to end.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Beautiful.
Yeah, thank you so much, Brian.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
There's something powerful about watching someone
sit with the hard questions Am Imaking enough of a difference?
Should I be doing more?
These aren't just philosophicalmusings for Dom, they're
questions that hit the core ofhis work and identity.
What made this sessionfascinating was seeing how the
very tension Dom was fightingagainst might actually be
serving him, that constantquestioning, that fierce desire
(53:41):
to do more.
It's not just self-doubt orguilt.
When he stopped trying toresolve the tension and instead
allowed himself to feel both thehelplessness and the fire that
the tension brought, somethinginteresting happened.
The pressure to be enoughstarted to loosen its grip.
One of the things I oftensuggest to my clients is to
notice what internal feelingsthey are resisting and move
(54:02):
closer to them instead.
This often yields surprisingresults.
Rather than try to relieve thetension that comes with am I
doing enough, perhaps we canlearn to use that tension as
fuel to propel us forward.
Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of Slid On to Speed Up.
If you enjoyed it, I'd reallyappreciate you giving it a like,
a subscribe or rating in yourfavorite podcasting app.
(54:22):
And if you're a founderinterested in learning more
about how coaching can help youreach the next level, please
contact me at dashleadershipcom.
Okay, see you at the next one.
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