April 16, 2024 • 40 mins
In this episode of Small Business Big World, we sit down with Conner Kennedy, an expert from Acadia Benefits, to explore the often complex world of benefits for small businesses. From health and wellness programs to employee benefits packages, Conner shares invaluable insights and practical advice to help small business owners navigate the ever-evolving landscape of benefits. Whether you're just starting out or looking to enhance your existing benefits package, this episode is a must-listen for any small business owner.
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Episode Transcript
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Chris Cluff (00:00):
This is Small Business Big World, our weekly
podcast prepared by the team atPaper Trails.
Owning and running a smallbusiness is hard.
Each week we'll dive into thechallenges, headaches, trends,
fun and excitement of running asmall business.
After all, small businesses arethe heartbeat of America and
our team is here to keep thembeating.
Welcome to Small Business BigWorld.
(00:22):
Another exciting episode thisweek we have Connor Kennedy of
Acadia Benefits.
We're going to talk about somereally exciting things employee
benefits, certainly.
I know I get the warm andfuzzies every year.
I get to talk to Conor aboutour employee benefits.
Absolutely, thank you, welcome.
Very much for coming.
We appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, a couple of quickhousekeeping things.
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(00:45):
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So you know, certainly, Connor,when we're, you know, you and I
(01:09):
get together once a year wetalk about our benefits.
It's, it's a big cost, right,that's you know.
You know what are you guysdoing in terms of preparing
benefit plans for your clientsthat are affordable and meet
their needs, and and all thatkind of stuff.
Conner Kennedy (01:21):
Yeah, of course it comes down to every specific
customer and what their needsare.
I'll pull this closer yeah, soit comes down to whatever their
needs are, whether they're asmall employer or a plus 50
employer, whether they're anexperience-rated group.
Needs change, sure.
Also, budgets change, so it's alittle bit different for
(01:43):
everyone.
But something that we reallylike to do, I guess put a plug
in for adecated benefits rightis really learn the company's
culture first, benefits packageavailable to recruit and retain
(02:09):
or, you know, trying to providethe best benefits possible, you
know, within a budget always.
So that's that's kind of ourgoal and, and the hardest part
about it is, is reallyaggressively marketing what's
available.
Um, and, as you know, right, inthe small group market, and
we'll get into it in a littlebit but in the small group
market and we'll get into it ina little bit but in the small
group market, it's all based onwhere you're located, what's the
age of your population andthings of that nature.
(02:30):
So there's some things youcan't change.
But with a really aggressivemarketing strategy you can
really find plans that that bestfit your needs.
That's great.
Chris Cluff (02:39):
What kind of benefits are you seeing folks
offer?
I mean, the health insurance isthe big one, right.
What else are we seeing peoplego out there with?
Conner Kennedy (02:46):
Yeah, absolutely so, something to keep in mind.
You know, some small employerscome to us and they just think
that they can't offer plans.
You know, maybe they think theycan just offer a medical plan,
something like that, but there'stons of benefits available to
you, whether it's medical,dental, life and disability,
voluntary products, right, right, critical illness, accident,
(03:08):
hospital indemnity all thesepolicies go down, you know, to
about the four employee countright On a dental plan, you only
need two people to elect thecoverage and you can have a
group plan for as long as you'dlike, right.
So these are just, and thoseare low-cost type benefits.
Chris Cluff (03:25):
I always tell people get a dental Like
dental's $35 a month.
Conner Kennedy (03:29):
Right, it's not generally a huge cost and people
love it right, and it's cheaperthan buying an individual
dental policy for yourself oryour family.
And on the employer side, right, you can contribute 50% of the
premium and really get that costdown.
But kind of the elephant in theroom is the medical plan.
Always it's the most expensiveby far of any of the policies
(03:49):
available to employers andthat's where we spend most of
our time.
Chris Cluff (03:56):
That is the most expensive one, right Certainly I
think, when we looked at ourstuff, it's $100,000 for just us
for our benefit package andthat's majority health insurance
, and I'm fortunate to have avery seasoned staff, but that
also means that the age of mystaff is a little older, which
drives that cost up, right.
Conner Kennedy (04:13):
That's you know one of the challenges Definitely
and you know it's not just inthe small group market.
I mean that's primarily whatdrives pricing in the small
group market is the age of yourpopulation.
But of course, if you're alarge employer and you have an
aging, stable workforce, likemost companies are here in the
state and throughout the country, you can see that your premiums
(04:34):
are going to increase withtrend and also with the age of
your population.
But to get into a few types ofmedical plans and different
networks, this is where you canstart to play around with price
as well.
Whether you roll a PPO planright, you may know a PPO plan.
That's national coverage.
You can go in and out of networkbenefits.
(04:55):
You can go anywhere.
You can live here in Maine,live in Florida, utilize the PPO
plan in network, don't need aprimary care physician.
Or you can move to an HMO plan.
You can offer them together aswell.
An HMO plan, a narrowed network.
You need to have a primary carephysician, you have to stay in
that network to receive benefits.
Then there's kind of the split.
We call it a POS plan.
(05:16):
Kind of the best of both worldsis where you have national
coverage.
So you go in and out of networkbenefits, but you also need to
have a primary care physicianfor referrals.
Chris Cluff (05:28):
And that's the onset soup, right?
I mean, we talk about the PPO,the HSA, the HMO, the HRA, all
those kind of different add-ons,right?
Absolutely.
I know we see a lot of folksthat have their health insurance
plan but then they'recontributing to an HSA health
savings account, right.
Conner Kennedy (05:48):
What's that kind of look like usually?
Does that help lower thosepremiums?
Yes, lots of acronyms.
So we have HSA, hra, fsa, Icall a DCA, a dependent care
account.
So, starting with an HSA, Ithink these are awesome and it
does require employee education.
But a qualified high deductiblehealth plan can be paired with
(06:09):
a health savings account andreally what that means is that
you have a high deductiblehealth plan where all services
go toward the deductible.
So you have a $4,000 deductibleplan.
So you go to the doctor, you goto the doctor, you go to pay
out of pocket.
You go to the specialist, you goto the hospital, you go to the
pharmacy, whatever it is.
You're paying up until you hitthat deductible.
(06:29):
Once you've hit that deductible, the co-insurance kicks in.
And again this is getting theweeds right Every plan gets
different, but the co-insuranceis going to kick in once you hit
that deductible.
That's just the cost sharebetween you and the insurance
company.
So on a high deductible healthplan that's the first time the
plan starts sharing cost withyou.
It's when you've hit thatdeductible.
Now they do that because thehigh deductible health plan is
the only plan you're allowed toput dollars away tax-free into a
(06:54):
health savings account and Iwould say the health savings
account is the best of allworlds.
So you get to payroll deducttax-free.
Those dollars grow tax-free,they roll over every single year
in your account tax-free andthen you use those dollars on
qualified medical expensestax-free as well.
Chris Cluff (07:12):
And the employer can contribute to that account
on behalf of the employee ifthey want to right.
Conner Kennedy (07:16):
Absolutely.
That's a great way to recruitand retain employees is by even
doing a match program.
We've seen a lot right.
If you put 100 in, we'll put100 in Things like that, so you
have the employees investing intheir own HSA as well as the
employer.
And again, we call these thehealthcare 401ks.
They just grow and grow andgrow.
(07:36):
You can use them to supportyour family and then down the
line, right?
Not everyone hits theirdeductible every year, so it
makes sense for a lot ofindividuals to pay a lower
premium, put some dollars awayinto a health savings account
and then, if someday they needto use those dollars to offset
medical costs they have it therefor them.
Chris Cluff (07:56):
It's not like I speak out of turn here, but an
FSA, those are use or lose right, Absolutely.
Conner Kennedy (08:02):
So the FSA works a little bit like a health
savings account, but there is acap.
So you're only allowed tocontribute up to a certain
dollar amount Every year.
The IRS sets those limits andif you don't use those dollars,
you do forfeit those dollarsover at the end of the year.
(08:22):
So like an HSA you roll thosedollars over.
The FSA I always say can onlyopen up an FSA or contribute to
an FSA if you know for a factyou have medical expenses during
a year.
You pick up a prescription, youget contacts, things like that.
Chris Cluff (08:38):
I remember at the end my parents used to have an
FSA and they used to go to CVSand buy Advil and get new
contacts and all that stuff allthe way at the end of the year
because they would lose it.
So that's certainly a thingthat you need to keep an eye on.
You don't want to lose that.
Conner Kennedy (08:51):
Right, and there's a great place it's the
fsastorecom.
If you're looking to spend downsome dollars, go in the FSA
store and they just havehundreds of items that are
eligible expenses that you canspend down some of those dollars
.
You know some employers have arollover right, you can roll
over $500 in a year or somethinglike that.
But personally I tend to leantoward that HSA plan just
(09:14):
because of the ability to rollthose funds over.
But of course, if your employerdoesn't offer a high deductible
health plan, fsa is the nextbest thing, right.
Chris Cluff (09:23):
How do you explain this to small businesses?
This is super complicated.
We talk about even regularinsurance.
Most people are familiar withtheir car insurance and their
home insurance, but healthinsurance is a whole different.
All in-play benefits are awhole different game.
How do you explain that tosmall business people?
Conner Kennedy (09:41):
Not everything at once, probably Over time,
building a relationship with thecustomer and having meetings
and talking through theiroptions, right?
Something I do want to bring upis that HRA Health
Reimbursement Arrangement sothat's a really cool program.
That's an employer-fundedbenefit and I have a note here
that says shrinking deductibleand what that really means is
(10:03):
say you could put put in a um, a3000 PPO plan, for example, or
even higher.
You know, say a, a, a 4,000 PPOplan, and what you tell your
employees is like hey, you know,we, we, we have this higher
deductible health plan, but wehave this health reimbursement
arrangement on the backend.
So we will pay, you know, thelast $2,000 of your deductible
(10:27):
out of pocket, right, theemployer will and, as the
employer knows, not everyonehits their deductible every year
.
So you're saving on premiumcosts and you're kind of
self-funding a healthreimbursement arrangement for
folks that do hit theirdeductible and it really makes
everyone else's your employees'deductible down to a $2,000 plan
when you're paying for a $4,000plan.
(10:48):
So those are ways to tweak.
Chris Cluff (10:49):
I'd never heard about doing it at the end.
I've heard people say hey, I'llgive you money towards your HRA
right.
Conner Kennedy (10:55):
But I guess.
Chris Cluff (10:55):
I've never heard of it.
They have to prove that it'sthe end right.
You have to use half of it andwe'll give you half of it
Exactly.
Conner Kennedy (11:00):
That's an interesting way, and there's
tons of vendors that willsupport that.
You know this automatic claimfeeds between carriers and.
HRA vendors.
That is seamless for theemployee, which is great stuff.
So there's tons of differentoptions to support an HRA.
And just one last piece on theHRA mostly for larger employers
(11:21):
is to build a wellness platformthat by completing wellness
goals the employer contributesto an hra for them.
Right, so you can earn up to500 and in a year in an hra and
say that rolls forward for theemployee, right.
So there's different ways tokind of craft wellness programs
um, with an hra.
You can do that with an HSA too, but we do like the HSA
(11:45):
educated benefits.
I mean the HRA, sorry, thehealth reimbursement arrangement
.
It's a good way to reallyshrink that deductible.
Chris Cluff (11:53):
So, going back to how do you manage this with
small businesses, right, I mean,we're all overwhelmed with
everything we've got going on.
I mean you talked about reallyidentifying the culture, which I
think is great.
Yep, you know, understanding isagain is it check in the box,
is it just hey, my employeesneed something?
Or is it really?
You know you want to make sureyou're taking care of your
employees, and certainly I thinkI've probably fallen into that
(12:15):
bucket and you know it costs anawful lot to do that.
So you know what strategies Iknow you talked about the HSA
FSA.
I know you talked about the HSAFSA Are there different plans
that you can offer differentlevels, things like that?
What does that all look?
Conner Kennedy (12:28):
like yeah, absolutely.
I mean in all market spaces,whether it's small or large, you
tweak cost really by changingdeductible levels, changing
coinsurance, changing co-paysand then really tweaking the
pharmacy benefit.
Now, as you know, in the smallgroup market there's a bunch of
(12:51):
canned plans, so we call that areally rigid market.
There's not a ton of strategythat can go into place there
besides an aggressive marketingstrategy.
So every year your brokerbrings you a spreadsheet that
shows what your current planoption is and everything else
that's available to you.
Right, and if we know you rightsaying you know I love the gold
(13:11):
plans, you know we might notlook at bronze plans or
something like that.
Chris Cluff (13:15):
But you can also say, hey, we want to look at the
gold plan, but we also may wantto offer a bronze plan.
Right, and say, hey, I'll coverthe majority of the bronze plan
and if you want you as theemployee, you want the better
coverage.
It's going to cost you a littlemore right, absolutely.
Conner Kennedy (13:28):
I think offering dual options or even triple
options is a great tactic foremployers to, I guess, one, make
your employee population happyand then, two, control your
employer costs.
So, for example, you could putin a bronze option which is a
(13:50):
low-cost premium to the employer.
You could fund the employeetier at 100%, for example.
You could pair that with asilver or a gold option and say
you know what?
We have this core bronze optionavailable to you.
We pay that at 100%, but ifyou'd like to buy up to a silver
or a gold you pay thedifference.
(14:10):
So it gives employees a choiceand an option to kind of give
them whatever fits their needs.
If they know they're hittingtheir deductible because they
have ongoing medical expenses,they may not want that gold.
If you're a young employee thatsays I just need kind of some
catastrophic coverage versus ifsomething horrible were to
happen to me, then and aphysical once a year.
Exactly, the bronze is a greatway to go.
Chris Cluff (14:33):
So you, you said you know keeping your employees
happy right.
When was the last time you wentto an employee meeting and all
the employees were happy whenyou showed up to talk about
benefits?
Conner Kennedy (14:41):
Probably two years ago, when rates were nice
across the state of Maine here,but we've since seen that change
.
Yeah, benefits isn't somethingthat people love to talk about,
right, because we'll get into ita little bit later.
Like everything else.
I mean, there's a trend,obviously on medical and dental
expenses that continues toskyrocket and what we try to do
(15:05):
for our customers is maintainthe control of that cost.
But there's a lot of thingsthat are out of everyone's hands
, and by having the rightstructure in place like we were
talking about HRAs, hsas tosupport employees when they have
medical expenses but maybe paylower on premium is a great
strategy.
Chris Cluff (15:25):
What are you seeing in general with your employers,
your clients?
What are they paying towardsthese benefits?
Right, I mean, I think it'scertainly dependent on the
business, but are people seeinga fixed amount and then you know
the employee pays thedifference?
Are we splitting it?
You know 80-20 or 50-50?
I mean, what are you seeingwith most of your clients?
Conner Kennedy (15:50):
How are they managing that?
So a couple of things there.
If you're a small employer andyou're trying to start a group
health plan, carriers haveparticipation requirements that
you need to fulfill.
So you can't just say, hey, youknow what, I'm going to
contribute 30% to the medicalpremium and think that you're
going to start a group healthplan, no one's going to take the
plan.
Chris Cluff (16:07):
It's going to be too expensive, which that we've
seen a lot of our clients sayhey, I want to offer benefits
but I can't afford it.
I want to give them something,but then they'll be in roles and
then you can't get it.
Even if you have three peoplethat want to get in, the other
30 won't go in, and it's a lotof small businesses.
Conner Kennedy (16:20):
That 75% participation requirement
doesn't count employees thathave coverage elsewhere.
But if you have a group ofemployees that doesn't have
coverage today and they decidenot to take your plan, that
counts against you and you won'tbe able to kind of jumpstart a
group health plan.
So what we're seeing in thesmall group market is for
employers.
You know we do have employersdo the 50-50 cost share but we
(16:42):
squeak by on participation and Ihate telling people how much
they need to pay towardssomething.
But just from looking at ourblock of business it's 65% and
up on the employee tier in thesmall group at block and then if
you want to bring on dependent,you pay the difference.
That's the cost to you.
So we see that a ton as astrategy.
(17:04):
I think 65% is a great landingpoint and starting point for a
small employer I'm talkingsub-30, sub-50 employees.
Chris Cluff (17:14):
So if you're looking at, say, it's $500 or
$600 a month total, the employeris paying probably $400 of that
, four fifty, something likethat and the employee is going
to pay the difference.
If that's the, that's thecategory and certainly, again,
those premiums that I just threwout are totally wild guesses,
you know, and it's changes, youknow, all the time depending.
Conner Kennedy (17:32):
It's different for everyone.
It really is.
You know, you could have ayoung, a young brewery right and
then you could have aretirement home right.
The same plans, completelydifferent structure and cost.
Yep, I know, and that's.
Chris Cluff (17:43):
I think that's one of the hard things is, you know,
when we talk to our clients,they say well, I talked to joey
and he's got 300 bucks a month.
He pays for his employees andhe pays all of it.
Why are you telling me it's 750for my employees?
And uh, you know, certainlyit's I.
I have no expertise in this andI say call Connor Right.
Conner Kennedy (17:59):
Right.
Chris Cluff (18:00):
But it's hard because-.
Location, age yeah, it's allthose factors that come into it
Absolutely and that's a killer,and I think we all I mean, I
feel.
When I grew up I guess not thatlong ago, but I feel like my
father worked for the town.
We had good benefits.
It was never anything we had toworry about, and then I became
self-employed and everythingchanged.
Conner Kennedy (18:21):
My mother worked for the school system.
Chris Cluff (18:22):
Right, it was the same thing.
So we had good benefits growingup.
We went to the doctor and wedidn't pay anything.
And those were the good olddays where you went to the
doctor, you paid your $20 copayand you came home.
And I think the health insurancecompanies have probably tried,
or have been trying, to changeour buying habits, just as we
(18:43):
shop for anything, maybe shopfor I know there's places here
where you can get an MRI for aquarter of the cost of going to
the hospital.
So it's trying to shop for yourhealth care rather than.
Conner Kennedy (18:55):
Yeah, absolutely , and carriers design plans
based on who they have the bestcontracts with and that's really
getting into the weeds.
But you know, by going to stayexactly what you're saying
instead of getting an MRI at ahospital, going to a
freestanding facility, you maypay a whole lot less by going to
an urgent care facility insteadof the emergency room right,
(19:16):
Urgent care is most likely acopay, Emergency room is most
always deductible.
Chris Cluff (19:20):
And there's urgent care in every corner.
Now Exactly exactly.
Conner Kennedy (19:23):
So it's those types of things.
It's being knowledgeable ofwhere you should seek care
before just saying I'm going togo get care.
Of course, if it's an emergency, go to the emergency room,
right.
But if you have a sore throat,a pink eye, rash, fever, have a
small cut.
Those are urgent care.
And you start there.
You'll start to save somedollars on your plan.
(19:45):
The last thing I want to talkabout for employer contribution
is in the large group market wesee a 70-30 cost share split
across all tiers.
That's really the landing pointfor a large employer and it
only kind of goes up from there.
You know, maybe a little bitmore to the employee tier, but
there's more often than notthere is some sort of
(20:07):
contribution, whether it's 50-50, to the employee, spouse,
employee, child, family tier.
Chris Cluff (20:12):
Yeah, that's where the big dollars come in and I
know on our plan.
That's, you know it's triplethe cost to put everybody on
there.
So put the kids on there andeverything, so say we can't get
into health insurance right away.
That's the big elephant in theroom.
It's expensive, we're not ready.
What kind of lower cost orunique benefits are people doing
(20:33):
?
We talked about the dental.
That's an inexpensive one, butis there anything else out there
that people are doing?
Conner Kennedy (20:37):
Yeah, an expensive one, but is there
anything else out there thatpeople are doing?
Yeah, so, like you said, dentalvision, voluntary products
these really aren't going tobreak the bank for an employer
and we even see most employersespecially on the vision right,
you've seen those rates pick up100% of the cost of some of
those policies.
So, dental vision, we've seensome employers pick up 100% of
(20:58):
the cost on an accident or acritical illness or a hospital
deputy plan.
So that's kind of interestingto think about.
Right, those policies are very,very low dollar.
Chris Cluff (21:08):
Most of those policies are less than an hour
of work.
Right, they're $10, $15 a month.
Conner Kennedy (21:12):
They're probably less than what you're paying
monthly for one of your singleemployees on the medical plan.
Right, right.
So those are plans that oneyour employees are going to
really value by working at your,you know, at your company to
have.
And again, they're not.
They're not going to beanywhere close to the medical
plan.
We we kind of call these low nocost benefit solutions, and
(21:34):
there's there's a few otheritems I'd like to talk about.
You know, lifestyle benefits areinteresting.
There's a program called Comptand it's basically kind of like
an enhanced employee stipendprogram.
So it's an app you can giveyour employees, say, $500 a year
.
It's tax-free.
They can use those dollars togo to use them on wellness or,
(21:56):
you know, to get their tireschanged, coffee, food, whatever.
But it's just kind of a littleperk program that your employees
appreciate.
And again, these are low, low,low dollar items, like we were
just talking about low no costinsurance plans.
Home and auto insurance is aninteresting one, mostly for
large employers.
(22:16):
But if you can implement agroup home and auto policy,
again it's no cost to theemployer but it's cheaper for
the employee.
Anything you buy in a group ischeaper.
So that's kind of aninteresting program.
Chris Cluff (22:30):
That's an interesting choice.
So you're saying, put everyonetogether and say, hey, we're
going to pool all of our carinsurance and we want 30 cars in
the parking lot, we want to getcoverage on.
Conner Kennedy (22:40):
Absolutely.
And then you have you know PNCagent go out in group and group.
Chris Cluff (22:42):
That's an interesting kind of Yep.
Conner Kennedy (22:43):
So there's group group home and auto Emergency
savings accounts is aninteresting one.
So it's basically a financialsafety net for so employees
don't have to dip into theirretirement.
You know, just have a littleemergency savings account built
up for each employee that youbring on.
So that's kind of a low,no-cost option.
And then no-cost remote care.
(23:04):
This is kind of interesting.
There's a program called AllyHealth which employees can take
voluntary.
You can offer voluntary oremployer-paid.
It's 100% remote care.
So you can talk to a doctor,you can get a prescription.
You can talk to a doctor, youcan get a prescription.
You can talk to a psychiatrist,all through your smartphone or
(23:27):
on your computer.
Super, super low dollars.
And it's not a benefit, it's aservice.
So say, if you have a largepart-time population like a
restaurant or a resort,something like that, you can
roll out these types of virtualcare programs.
Chris Cluff (23:45):
So it's a Teladoc Doc in a Box Exactly, and it's
an interesting model for sure.
I'm always used to hey, I'veknown my primary care physician,
I have this rapport with them,so it's interesting to have
those conversations kind of withsomebody gosh knows where, but
it's an interesting kind ofmodel.
Conner Kennedy (24:03):
It's different.
It's a different type of model.
It doesn't replace yourhealthcare, but it's a way to
offer some sort of benefitthat's extremely low cost to the
employer or no cost to theemployer and something that your
employees will truly value.
Chris Cluff (24:16):
That's really interesting.
Those are good, inexpensivebenefits.
And they're in the healthcareworld right?
I mean, that's a health benefit, is having access to that kind
of thing.
It's not like you can do thatany other way.
Yep Most of those folks thatare uninsured are probably going
to the ER right, which iscosting them 100 times more than
anything else, right?
Conner Kennedy (24:35):
Yeah, that's what the virtual care platforms
will say.
Is the return on investment?
Is that, you know, I don't knowif it's actually there, right,
but they'll say, you know, bypushing employees to using the
virtual care apps, it will saveon your overall experience.
And again, I'm talking large,large customers.
But you know, I don't know ifthat's 100% true.
(24:57):
But what I do value about thosevirtual care programs is that
they're a service, not a benefit, and it can be offered to
anyone.
So temporary, seasonal,part-timers, it's just people
are always looking for somethingto offer to that employee group
, employer paid, it's really lowdollars and you can
(25:17):
automatically enroll and it'sone flat rate and you're, you
know the, the, the seasonalemployee, their entire family
can utilize the app for, aboutgosh, I don't know, I think it
was like $10 a week or somethinglike that, right, right.
So it's a low, low, low dollars.
Chris Cluff (25:33):
So those low cost kind of things are really great
tools in the toolbox foremployers.
But you, you know what areemployers doing to educate their
clients or their excuse me,their employees about.
You know the different plansand how do you manage those and
that kind of thing.
Conner Kennedy (25:49):
I would say I would lean on your broker and
I'll talk about that in a secondbut I'd also lean on the
carrier apps and their websites.
But I'd also lean on thecarrier apps and their websites.
They've all invested tons ofmoney into their websites and
they're all pretty slick.
At this point, whether you needto find, like we were talking
(26:15):
about before, virtual carein-network providers, there's so
many programs that areavailable to you.
Whether you enroll withUnitedHealthcare, harvardetna,
anthem, blue cross, cho right,signa, they all have a specific
wellness program tied to youknow whether it's um
reimbursement for fitnessclasses, things like that right,
that you may not really knowabout, but but it's included in
(26:36):
your plan exactly.
You're already kind of payingfor it.
So you, you got to takeadvantage of these programs,
that these add ons, that theyhave available to you.
And when I first said, lean onyour broker, you know really
they can do educational sessionsfor your employees, whether
it's at open enrollment orsometime throughout the year.
Say, hey, you know we'd love tobuild a slide deck that just
(26:58):
talks about the value adds ofour programs.
All that stuff's available toyou.
And at Acadia Benefits, ofcourse, we've done recordings
for customers, new hires.
Say, hey, we have this new hire, you send them a link talks
through all the benefits.
It really educates them onwhat's available to them, as
(27:20):
opposed to you know you tryingwith everything else that you're
doing, trying to educate themon what benefit package is
available to them.
Chris Cluff (27:28):
That's great.
Yeah, I think that's reallyimportant.
It's certainly educating theemployee population.
You know, I think everyone sayswhat am I paying for?
This is so expensive.
I go to the doctor, I stillhave to pay, I have to pay, I
have to pay.
But I think trying to createthat value is really important,
Absolutely.
So, what kind of you knowtrends are you seeing in the
industry when?
Where are things headed?
What's?
You know?
(27:49):
What's new, what's, what's old,what's?
Where are things going?
Conner Kennedy (27:53):
Yeah, so I don't want to speak specifically to
Maine, but of course throughoutthe country we have inflation on
everything.
The cost of care goes up everysingle year.
I would probably put medical andpharmacy trend between 9% to
11% every single year.
(28:14):
So when customers come to usand say, why am I getting a 10%
increase every single year?
It's the cost of pharmacies,it's the cost to get your to
receive care, it's the cost ofeverything that they have at the
hospital.
Right, it's.
Everything is increasing everysingle year.
And I would kind of start tothink of the insurance companies
(28:36):
as the middleman, to think ofthe insurance companies as the
middleman.
They're taking a cut of of theof of profit, of course, but
remember they they're insuringwhat you're covering, right?
They're paying out claims.
So if you go to the doctor, thedoctor is filing that claim
with the insurance company.
They're paying out that costand you're paying for that as
(28:57):
well, right?
So they are the middlemanbetween that.
So as things increase aroundthe world, they're going to up
their charges to cover theirexpenses as well.
And state mandates, I think, isa big one as well, right?
We've seen that here in Maine.
When you start to introducedifferent programs that have to
(29:18):
be covered by the medical plan.
It's great, it's a betterbenefit for employees and the
population as a whole, butsomeone has to pay for it the
cost goes up, the cost goes up,so you may be getting a greater
benefit, um, but you're gonna bepaying more in premium over
time.
And state mandates, federalmandates they really end up
driving a ton of the increasesthat we're seeing.
Chris Cluff (29:42):
You talked a lot about the virtual care, but one
of the things I think we've seena lot here in Maine
particularly is kind of theintroduction of direct primary
care, and certainly you knowthere are doctors that just
don't take insurance anymore.
Yep, right, hey, pay me mymonthly fee, pay me when I come.
Right, keep me on retainer.
Are you seeing clients kind ofgo that route and try to pair a
higher deductible plan for thosecatastrophic things and use
(30:05):
those?
Have you seen a lot of that?
Conner Kennedy (30:07):
Yeah, you know it's for specific employers.
You know some companies thathave had their core benefit in
place for a long time.
It's tough to make that change.
We see some new kind of startupcompanies, startup companies
utilizing those types ofdifferent programs.
As you know, Maine is slow toreact to things, so a lot of our
(30:28):
out-of-state customers aredoing some different things.
But Maine as a whole, theNortheast as a whole change is
slow.
So we see most things happeningin other parts of the country.
They will be trickling into theNortheast, for sure, but we
still see a lot of our employersoffering those core offerings.
Chris Cluff (30:48):
And I think for me, it's what your employees expect
Exactly.
I think it's been for so longhealth insurance in particular,
has been tied to the employer.
For so long health insurance inparticular has been tied to the
employer and it's ourresponsibility.
We see, from a payrollperspective, we see a lot more
clients offering a QSERA, whichis a qualified HRA for under 50
(31:09):
employees.
That allows them to give them astipend every month to go buy
the insurance on the marketplace, which sometimes is cheaper.
Certainly, that's not allowedin the larger group settings,
but definitely with the smallergroups that's an option that's
out there.
Conner Kennedy (31:23):
Yeah, we've seen a lot of employers consider the
ICHRA and those two.
The ICHRAs, yeah Right, and Iwould say in the small group
market, the ICHRA over timereally won't save you a ton of
dollars.
You're still going to have toraise your contribution as the
individual marketplace raisestheir rates.
What I've seen is for a largeemployer that's experience rated
(31:47):
with the ICHRA what you can dois that there's a bunch of
different rules where you canclass out certain portions of
the population, whether it'shourly, hourly, by location,
different items like that.
So if you had a population thatyou identified that was really
driving claim costs with theICHRA, you can move that
(32:09):
population back into theindividual marketplace, thus
kind of taking them off of yourexperience.
So we've seen large employersutilize that tactic to help
lower claims costs.
It's aggressive, right, butthese are types of different
tactics that you can use as alarge employer to really lower
your overall spend while stilloffering a great benefit for
(32:32):
your employees.
Right, you still keep thatemployer contribution high for
that ICHRA, but they aren't onyour claims experience anymore.
It sounds like a puzzle, it'slike how do we keep this all
squared away, right, I mean?
Chris Cluff (32:44):
it gets more and more complicated as things get
more and more complicated, right?
I think you know one of thetrends that we've talked about
in all of our you know, mostrecent podcasts is it's just
harder and harder to do businessas a small business owner
because things are getting moreand more and more complicated,
where we just have to focus oneverything.
You have to focus on making thewidget and you have to focus on
taking care of your people andeverything that goes along with
(33:06):
that.
So it's definitely been achallenge, of course.
Conner Kennedy (33:09):
The last part about trends is really pharmacy
costs.
So pharmacy costs is explodingand the trend is much greater
than your medical spend.
So you know what it costs foryou to go visit your primary
care physician really hasn'tchanged in 15, 20 years.
It's gone up slightly, right,but it really hasn't changed a
(33:29):
ton.
Pharmacy costs have skyrocketed.
What the cost is to get aprescription is extremely
expensive to what it used to beand you know, for a small
employer you're not experiencerated but it will still affect
your premiums.
In the overall scheme of things.
The overall trend and increase.
(33:50):
Again, we've talked about that.
Small employers, you havecanned plans available to you.
It's rigid and what you'veprobably seen the past couple of
renewals is that every year thecarrier tweaks your plan right
and some of the major tweaksthat you'll see is to that
pharmacy benefit right.
The past couple of years we'veseen tiers three and four are
(34:10):
subject to deductible now whenthey used to not be right, or
they've added a deductiblecoinsurance with a script max of
, say, $300 or $500.
What that's doing is that theinsurance companies are trying
to protect themselves as much asthey can from those tier three,
tier four, tier five drugs thatare extremely expensive Tier
(34:31):
one, tier two genericmedications.
They're still at your copay.
You can still use coupon codesto get those drugs cheaper.
You can still use coupon codesto get those drugs cheaper.
These high-tier prescriptiondrug costs that we've seen on
experience reports running, say,$85,000 a month.
Right, these drugs are savingpeople's lives, so we have to
remember that.
So that's why they're there.
(34:51):
It's great You're providing abenefit for your employees
that's really saving someone'slife.
On the flip side as well isthat these drugs are driving a
ton of cost on your plan.
They're increasing premiumrates every single year.
So by designing a program sayhaving a specific drug
(35:12):
deductible, you have to meet$1,000 before you pay that
co-pay, things like that thatcan kind of start to tweak your
rates to help save employerdollars as well.
Chris Cluff (35:24):
Interesting.
That's crazy, just theprescription stuff.
Conner Kennedy (35:28):
The prescription drug is a rabbit hole, again in
the small group market.
It's rigid.
There's not a lot you can dostrategy-wise as you get into
the large group market.
You can tweak plan design.
You can tweak, you know, thethe formulary that you offer,
whether it's a premium formularyor a value formulary, um, kind
(35:50):
of covering different sort ofdrugs, and then we're not going
to go down this rabbit hole.
But if you're a largeself-funded employer, there's
tons of options available to you, whether you kind of carve out
your own prescription drugbenefit manager, your own PBM to
manage claim costs, things likethat.
But again, primarily Now youneed someone to manage your
house right, absolutely.
Chris Cluff (36:10):
You know those are way bigger than most.
You know most of our clientsand things we're thinking about.
But yeah, no, I think there's alot to this and I've just my
brain's kind of spinning justthinking about all the different
kind of ways to manage benefitsfor small businesses.
Conner Kennedy (36:24):
Yeah.
Chris Cluff (36:24):
You know we didn't even talk about some of the
other ones.
You know disability plans, lifeand those kind of things.
There's so many options outthere, and again some of them
are relatively low cost,absolutely.
You know, certainly we talkedabout you and I talked a little
bit about, you know, the paidfamily medical leave stuff kind
of sweeping the country andthat's certainly something
that's going to change thelandscape, you know, coming
(36:45):
across too and we'll have to getback together to talk about
that.
Conner Kennedy (36:47):
Yeah, yeah, we can talk about that.
We're going to talk about thatagain at some point, because
there's the rulemaking progressprocess is still happening now,
today, but there's a few thingsthat we do know and still
subject to change.
Right, everything's subject tochange, but the maximum
contribution per employee isgoing to be about 1% of the
(37:08):
individual wage rate, and it'sgoing to be.
That's going to changedepending on your employer size
I believe it's, was it 15employees size I believe it's.
Was it 15 employees, 15employees.
Chris Cluff (37:24):
It's all going to change.
That's the thing and I thinkyou know.
Really what's going to happenis is businesses are going to
have to figure out if it's worthgoing into a state plan like
that.
Or I know there's a lot ofexclusions that potentially
could say hey, if you have aplan, a short-term disability
plan in place already, you maybe able to exempt yourself from
kind of the state plan, but butterm disability plan in place
already you may be able toexempt yourself from kind of the
state plan, but certainlythat's a whole different
(37:45):
conversation for a wholedifferent day and how that's
going to all work.
Conner Kennedy (37:46):
Yeah, I would say timeline wise, right?
We're saying November of 24 iswhen employers need to decide
whether they'd like to jump intothe state pool or decide if
they want to stay in a privatecarrier setting.
If you have a short-termdisability policy in place
already, I would lean on thatcarrier and your broker to make
sure we kind of design your STDpolicy that meets the criteria.
(38:10):
What the state is asking you todo and the good thing about
that about waiting is thatpayroll tax starts in January,
right?
So if you go with the privateplan, you know your premiums due
for the employers is not goingto start till May of 26.
Right, right.
So there's going to be a biggap there where you can save
(38:32):
some dollars.
Of course, depending on whatthat carrier is going to charge
you to manage the plans.
There's a lot of stuff up inthe air.
Still.
We know that a lot of ourcustomers with short-term
disability policies in placetoday are probably going to lean
on their private carriers, butit remains to be seen.
Chris Cluff (38:51):
Still so much to know about that.
Still much to learn for sure.
Well, good, well, thank youvery much, carter.
This has been really good.
We covered a lot of ground andso, well, good, well, thank you
very much, connor.
This has been really good.
We talked, we covered a lot ofground and, like I said, my
head's spinning for sure.
So how do we, how do peoplefind you if they want to get in
touch with you?
Instagram, you know, facebookor anything like that?
Yeah you know Email.
How do people get in touch withyou?
Conner Kennedy (39:14):
if they have questions to follow up.
Chris Cluff (39:16):
You can go to Connor.
Conner Kennedy (39:17):
Kennedy right.
Connor Kennedy at.
Chris Cluff (39:19):
Acadia Benefits.
Conner Kennedy (39:26):
Right.
So Acadia Benefits is just alittle bit about us.
We've been managing benefitplans for over 32 years.
We're based right in Portland,Maine.
We're independently owned andoperated and we have a lot of
long-term customers.
We've been doing this for along time.
We think we do a great job, sofeel free, Absolutely Reach out
to me LinkedIn through ourwebsite, and we'll get back to
you and see what we can do foryou.
Chris Cluff (39:47):
Awesome, great, well, thank you.
So again, be sure to like,follow, subscribe to all of our
channels Instagram, youtube,tiktok, Spotify, apple Podcasts.
Wherever you listen or watch,we're there.
I promise Don't forget to emailus any questions.
If you have questions aboutfuture things you'd like to hear
podcast at papertrailscom.
Otherwise, we will see you nextweek.
(40:08):
Thanks so much.
Thanks for listening to thisweek's episode of Small Business
Big World.
This podcast is a production ofPapertrails.
We are a payroll and HR companybased in Kennebunk, maine, and
we serve small and mid-sizedbusinesses across New England
and the country.
If you found this podcasthelpful, don't forget to follow
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The material presented in thispodcast is for general
(40:29):
information purposes only andshould not be considered legal
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By inviting this guest to ourpodcast, paper Trails does not
imply endorsement of oropposition to any specific
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podcast prepared by the team atPaper Trails.
Owning and running a smallbusiness is hard.
Each week we'll dive into thechallenges, headaches, trends,
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After all, small businesses arethe heartbeat of America and
our team is here to keep thembeating.
Welcome to Small Business BigWorld.
(00:22):
Another exciting episode thisweek we have Connor Kennedy of
Acadia Benefits.
We're going to talk about somereally exciting things employee
benefits, certainly.
I know I get the warm andfuzzies every year.
I get to talk to Conor aboutour employee benefits.
Absolutely, thank you, welcome.
Very much for coming.
We appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, a couple of quickhousekeeping things.
Be sure to like, follow,subscribe.
(00:45):
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So Instagram, youtube, tiktok,Spotify, apple podcasts,
anywhere you get your podcasts.
Follow us.
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Follow us on our small businessbig world Facebook group.
That lets a conversation there.
And if you have any questionsfor us or for our guests, be
sure to email us at podcast, atpapertrailscom.
So you know, certainly, Connor,when we're, you know, you and I
(01:09):
get together once a year wetalk about our benefits.
It's, it's a big cost, right,that's you know.
You know what are you guysdoing in terms of preparing
benefit plans for your clientsthat are affordable and meet
their needs, and and all thatkind of stuff.
Conner Kennedy (01:21):
Yeah, of course it comes down to every specific
customer and what their needsare.
I'll pull this closer yeah, soit comes down to whatever their
needs are, whether they're asmall employer or a plus 50
employer, whether they're anexperience-rated group.
Needs change, sure.
Also, budgets change, so it's alittle bit different for
(01:43):
everyone.
But something that we reallylike to do, I guess put a plug
in for adecated benefits rightis really learn the company's
culture first, benefits packageavailable to recruit and retain
(02:09):
or, you know, trying to providethe best benefits possible, you
know, within a budget always.
So that's that's kind of ourgoal and, and the hardest part
about it is, is reallyaggressively marketing what's
available.
Um, and, as you know, right, inthe small group market, and
we'll get into it in a littlebit but in the small group
market and we'll get into it ina little bit but in the small
group market, it's all based onwhere you're located, what's the
age of your population andthings of that nature.
(02:30):
So there's some things youcan't change.
But with a really aggressivemarketing strategy you can
really find plans that that bestfit your needs.
That's great.
Chris Cluff (02:39):
What kind of benefits are you seeing folks
offer?
I mean, the health insurance isthe big one, right.
What else are we seeing peoplego out there with?
Conner Kennedy (02:46):
Yeah, absolutely so, something to keep in mind.
You know, some small employerscome to us and they just think
that they can't offer plans.
You know, maybe they think theycan just offer a medical plan,
something like that, but there'stons of benefits available to
you, whether it's medical,dental, life and disability,
voluntary products, right, right, critical illness, accident,
(03:08):
hospital indemnity all thesepolicies go down, you know, to
about the four employee countright On a dental plan, you only
need two people to elect thecoverage and you can have a
group plan for as long as you'dlike, right.
So these are just, and thoseare low-cost type benefits.
Chris Cluff (03:25):
I always tell people get a dental Like
dental's $35 a month.
Conner Kennedy (03:29):
Right, it's not generally a huge cost and people
love it right, and it's cheaperthan buying an individual
dental policy for yourself oryour family.
And on the employer side, right, you can contribute 50% of the
premium and really get that costdown.
But kind of the elephant in theroom is the medical plan.
Always it's the most expensiveby far of any of the policies
(03:49):
available to employers andthat's where we spend most of
our time.
Chris Cluff (03:56):
That is the most expensive one, right Certainly I
think, when we looked at ourstuff, it's $100,000 for just us
for our benefit package andthat's majority health insurance
, and I'm fortunate to have avery seasoned staff, but that
also means that the age of mystaff is a little older, which
drives that cost up, right.
Conner Kennedy (04:13):
That's you know one of the challenges Definitely
and you know it's not just inthe small group market.
I mean that's primarily whatdrives pricing in the small
group market is the age of yourpopulation.
But of course, if you're alarge employer and you have an
aging, stable workforce, likemost companies are here in the
state and throughout the country, you can see that your premiums
(04:34):
are going to increase withtrend and also with the age of
your population.
But to get into a few types ofmedical plans and different
networks, this is where you canstart to play around with price
as well.
Whether you roll a PPO planright, you may know a PPO plan.
That's national coverage.
You can go in and out of networkbenefits.
(04:55):
You can go anywhere.
You can live here in Maine,live in Florida, utilize the PPO
plan in network, don't need aprimary care physician.
Or you can move to an HMO plan.
You can offer them together aswell.
An HMO plan, a narrowed network.
You need to have a primary carephysician, you have to stay in
that network to receive benefits.
Then there's kind of the split.
We call it a POS plan.
(05:16):
Kind of the best of both worldsis where you have national
coverage.
So you go in and out of networkbenefits, but you also need to
have a primary care physicianfor referrals.
Chris Cluff (05:28):
And that's the onset soup, right?
I mean, we talk about the PPO,the HSA, the HMO, the HRA, all
those kind of different add-ons,right?
Absolutely.
I know we see a lot of folksthat have their health insurance
plan but then they'recontributing to an HSA health
savings account, right.
Conner Kennedy (05:48):
What's that kind of look like usually?
Does that help lower thosepremiums?
Yes, lots of acronyms.
So we have HSA, hra, fsa, Icall a DCA, a dependent care
account.
So, starting with an HSA, Ithink these are awesome and it
does require employee education.
But a qualified high deductiblehealth plan can be paired with
(06:09):
a health savings account andreally what that means is that
you have a high deductiblehealth plan where all services
go toward the deductible.
So you have a $4,000 deductibleplan.
So you go to the doctor, you goto the doctor, you go to pay
out of pocket.
You go to the specialist, you goto the hospital, you go to the
pharmacy, whatever it is.
You're paying up until you hitthat deductible.
(06:29):
Once you've hit that deductible, the co-insurance kicks in.
And again this is getting theweeds right Every plan gets
different, but the co-insuranceis going to kick in once you hit
that deductible.
That's just the cost sharebetween you and the insurance
company.
So on a high deductible healthplan that's the first time the
plan starts sharing cost withyou.
It's when you've hit thatdeductible.
Now they do that because thehigh deductible health plan is
the only plan you're allowed toput dollars away tax-free into a
(06:54):
health savings account and Iwould say the health savings
account is the best of allworlds.
So you get to payroll deducttax-free.
Those dollars grow tax-free,they roll over every single year
in your account tax-free andthen you use those dollars on
qualified medical expensestax-free as well.
Chris Cluff (07:12):
And the employer can contribute to that account
on behalf of the employee ifthey want to right.
Conner Kennedy (07:16):
Absolutely.
That's a great way to recruitand retain employees is by even
doing a match program.
We've seen a lot right.
If you put 100 in, we'll put100 in Things like that, so you
have the employees investing intheir own HSA as well as the
employer.
And again, we call these thehealthcare 401ks.
They just grow and grow andgrow.
(07:36):
You can use them to supportyour family and then down the
line, right?
Not everyone hits theirdeductible every year, so it
makes sense for a lot ofindividuals to pay a lower
premium, put some dollars awayinto a health savings account
and then, if someday they needto use those dollars to offset
medical costs they have it therefor them.
Chris Cluff (07:56):
It's not like I speak out of turn here, but an
FSA, those are use or lose right, Absolutely.
Conner Kennedy (08:02):
So the FSA works a little bit like a health
savings account, but there is acap.
So you're only allowed tocontribute up to a certain
dollar amount Every year.
The IRS sets those limits andif you don't use those dollars,
you do forfeit those dollarsover at the end of the year.
(08:22):
So like an HSA you roll thosedollars over.
The FSA I always say can onlyopen up an FSA or contribute to
an FSA if you know for a factyou have medical expenses during
a year.
You pick up a prescription, youget contacts, things like that.
Chris Cluff (08:38):
I remember at the end my parents used to have an
FSA and they used to go to CVSand buy Advil and get new
contacts and all that stuff allthe way at the end of the year
because they would lose it.
So that's certainly a thingthat you need to keep an eye on.
You don't want to lose that.
Conner Kennedy (08:51):
Right, and there's a great place it's the
fsastorecom.
If you're looking to spend downsome dollars, go in the FSA
store and they just havehundreds of items that are
eligible expenses that you canspend down some of those dollars
.
You know some employers have arollover right, you can roll
over $500 in a year or somethinglike that.
But personally I tend to leantoward that HSA plan just
(09:14):
because of the ability to rollthose funds over.
But of course, if your employerdoesn't offer a high deductible
health plan, fsa is the nextbest thing, right.
Chris Cluff (09:23):
How do you explain this to small businesses?
This is super complicated.
We talk about even regularinsurance.
Most people are familiar withtheir car insurance and their
home insurance, but healthinsurance is a whole different.
All in-play benefits are awhole different game.
How do you explain that tosmall business people?
Conner Kennedy (09:41):
Not everything at once, probably Over time,
building a relationship with thecustomer and having meetings
and talking through theiroptions, right?
Something I do want to bring upis that HRA Health
Reimbursement Arrangement sothat's a really cool program.
That's an employer-fundedbenefit and I have a note here
that says shrinking deductibleand what that really means is
(10:03):
say you could put put in a um, a3000 PPO plan, for example, or
even higher.
You know, say a, a, a 4,000 PPOplan, and what you tell your
employees is like hey, you know,we, we, we have this higher
deductible health plan, but wehave this health reimbursement
arrangement on the backend.
So we will pay, you know, thelast $2,000 of your deductible
(10:27):
out of pocket, right, theemployer will and, as the
employer knows, not everyonehits their deductible every year
.
So you're saving on premiumcosts and you're kind of
self-funding a healthreimbursement arrangement for
folks that do hit theirdeductible and it really makes
everyone else's your employees'deductible down to a $2,000 plan
when you're paying for a $4,000plan.
(10:48):
So those are ways to tweak.
Chris Cluff (10:49):
I'd never heard about doing it at the end.
I've heard people say hey, I'llgive you money towards your HRA
right.
Conner Kennedy (10:55):
But I guess.
Chris Cluff (10:55):
I've never heard of it.
They have to prove that it'sthe end right.
You have to use half of it andwe'll give you half of it
Exactly.
Conner Kennedy (11:00):
That's an interesting way, and there's
tons of vendors that willsupport that.
You know this automatic claimfeeds between carriers and.
HRA vendors.
That is seamless for theemployee, which is great stuff.
So there's tons of differentoptions to support an HRA.
And just one last piece on theHRA mostly for larger employers
(11:21):
is to build a wellness platformthat by completing wellness
goals the employer contributesto an hra for them.
Right, so you can earn up to500 and in a year in an hra and
say that rolls forward for theemployee, right.
So there's different ways tokind of craft wellness programs
um, with an hra.
You can do that with an HSA too, but we do like the HSA
(11:45):
educated benefits.
I mean the HRA, sorry, thehealth reimbursement arrangement
.
It's a good way to reallyshrink that deductible.
Chris Cluff (11:53):
So, going back to how do you manage this with
small businesses, right, I mean,we're all overwhelmed with
everything we've got going on.
I mean you talked about reallyidentifying the culture, which I
think is great.
Yep, you know, understanding isagain is it check in the box,
is it just hey, my employeesneed something?
Or is it really?
You know you want to make sureyou're taking care of your
employees, and certainly I thinkI've probably fallen into that
(12:15):
bucket and you know it costs anawful lot to do that.
So you know what strategies Iknow you talked about the HSA
FSA.
I know you talked about the HSAFSA Are there different plans
that you can offer differentlevels, things like that?
What does that all look?
Conner Kennedy (12:28):
like yeah, absolutely.
I mean in all market spaces,whether it's small or large, you
tweak cost really by changingdeductible levels, changing
coinsurance, changing co-paysand then really tweaking the
pharmacy benefit.
Now, as you know, in the smallgroup market there's a bunch of
(12:51):
canned plans, so we call that areally rigid market.
There's not a ton of strategythat can go into place there
besides an aggressive marketingstrategy.
So every year your brokerbrings you a spreadsheet that
shows what your current planoption is and everything else
that's available to you.
Right, and if we know you rightsaying you know I love the gold
(13:11):
plans, you know we might notlook at bronze plans or
something like that.
Chris Cluff (13:15):
But you can also say, hey, we want to look at the
gold plan, but we also may wantto offer a bronze plan.
Right, and say, hey, I'll coverthe majority of the bronze plan
and if you want you as theemployee, you want the better
coverage.
It's going to cost you a littlemore right, absolutely.
Conner Kennedy (13:28):
I think offering dual options or even triple
options is a great tactic foremployers to, I guess, one, make
your employee population happyand then, two, control your
employer costs.
So, for example, you could putin a bronze option which is a
(13:50):
low-cost premium to the employer.
You could fund the employeetier at 100%, for example.
You could pair that with asilver or a gold option and say
you know what?
We have this core bronze optionavailable to you.
We pay that at 100%, but ifyou'd like to buy up to a silver
or a gold you pay thedifference.
(14:10):
So it gives employees a choiceand an option to kind of give
them whatever fits their needs.
If they know they're hittingtheir deductible because they
have ongoing medical expenses,they may not want that gold.
If you're a young employee thatsays I just need kind of some
catastrophic coverage versus ifsomething horrible were to
happen to me, then and aphysical once a year.
Exactly, the bronze is a greatway to go.
Chris Cluff (14:33):
So you, you said you know keeping your employees
happy right.
When was the last time you wentto an employee meeting and all
the employees were happy whenyou showed up to talk about
benefits?
Conner Kennedy (14:41):
Probably two years ago, when rates were nice
across the state of Maine here,but we've since seen that change
.
Yeah, benefits isn't somethingthat people love to talk about,
right, because we'll get into ita little bit later.
Like everything else.
I mean, there's a trend,obviously on medical and dental
expenses that continues toskyrocket and what we try to do
(15:05):
for our customers is maintainthe control of that cost.
But there's a lot of thingsthat are out of everyone's hands
, and by having the rightstructure in place like we were
talking about HRAs, hsas tosupport employees when they have
medical expenses but maybe paylower on premium is a great
strategy.
Chris Cluff (15:25):
What are you seeing in general with your employers,
your clients?
What are they paying towardsthese benefits?
Right, I mean, I think it'scertainly dependent on the
business, but are people seeinga fixed amount and then you know
the employee pays thedifference?
Are we splitting it?
You know 80-20 or 50-50?
I mean, what are you seeingwith most of your clients?
Conner Kennedy (15:50):
How are they managing that?
So a couple of things there.
If you're a small employer andyou're trying to start a group
health plan, carriers haveparticipation requirements that
you need to fulfill.
So you can't just say, hey, youknow what, I'm going to
contribute 30% to the medicalpremium and think that you're
going to start a group healthplan, no one's going to take the
plan.
Chris Cluff (16:07):
It's going to be too expensive, which that we've
seen a lot of our clients sayhey, I want to offer benefits
but I can't afford it.
I want to give them something,but then they'll be in roles and
then you can't get it.
Even if you have three peoplethat want to get in, the other
30 won't go in, and it's a lotof small businesses.
Conner Kennedy (16:20):
That 75% participation requirement
doesn't count employees thathave coverage elsewhere.
But if you have a group ofemployees that doesn't have
coverage today and they decidenot to take your plan, that
counts against you and you won'tbe able to kind of jumpstart a
group health plan.
So what we're seeing in thesmall group market is for
employers.
You know we do have employersdo the 50-50 cost share but we
(16:42):
squeak by on participation and Ihate telling people how much
they need to pay towardssomething.
But just from looking at ourblock of business it's 65% and
up on the employee tier in thesmall group at block and then if
you want to bring on dependent,you pay the difference.
That's the cost to you.
So we see that a ton as astrategy.
(17:04):
I think 65% is a great landingpoint and starting point for a
small employer I'm talkingsub-30, sub-50 employees.
Chris Cluff (17:14):
So if you're looking at, say, it's $500 or
$600 a month total, the employeris paying probably $400 of that
, four fifty, something likethat and the employee is going
to pay the difference.
If that's the, that's thecategory and certainly, again,
those premiums that I just threwout are totally wild guesses,
you know, and it's changes, youknow, all the time depending.
Conner Kennedy (17:32):
It's different for everyone.
It really is.
You know, you could have ayoung, a young brewery right and
then you could have aretirement home right.
The same plans, completelydifferent structure and cost.
Yep, I know, and that's.
Chris Cluff (17:43):
I think that's one of the hard things is, you know,
when we talk to our clients,they say well, I talked to joey
and he's got 300 bucks a month.
He pays for his employees andhe pays all of it.
Why are you telling me it's 750for my employees?
And uh, you know, certainlyit's I.
I have no expertise in this andI say call Connor Right.
Conner Kennedy (17:59):
Right.
Chris Cluff (18:00):
But it's hard because-.
Location, age yeah, it's allthose factors that come into it
Absolutely and that's a killer,and I think we all I mean, I
feel.
When I grew up I guess not thatlong ago, but I feel like my
father worked for the town.
We had good benefits.
It was never anything we had toworry about, and then I became
self-employed and everythingchanged.
Conner Kennedy (18:21):
My mother worked for the school system.
Chris Cluff (18:22):
Right, it was the same thing.
So we had good benefits growingup.
We went to the doctor and wedidn't pay anything.
And those were the good olddays where you went to the
doctor, you paid your $20 copayand you came home.
And I think the health insurancecompanies have probably tried,
or have been trying, to changeour buying habits, just as we
(18:43):
shop for anything, maybe shopfor I know there's places here
where you can get an MRI for aquarter of the cost of going to
the hospital.
So it's trying to shop for yourhealth care rather than.
Conner Kennedy (18:55):
Yeah, absolutely , and carriers design plans
based on who they have the bestcontracts with and that's really
getting into the weeds.
But you know, by going to stayexactly what you're saying
instead of getting an MRI at ahospital, going to a
freestanding facility, you maypay a whole lot less by going to
an urgent care facility insteadof the emergency room right,
(19:16):
Urgent care is most likely acopay, Emergency room is most
always deductible.
Chris Cluff (19:20):
And there's urgent care in every corner.
Now Exactly exactly.
Conner Kennedy (19:23):
So it's those types of things.
It's being knowledgeable ofwhere you should seek care
before just saying I'm going togo get care.
Of course, if it's an emergency, go to the emergency room,
right.
But if you have a sore throat,a pink eye, rash, fever, have a
small cut.
Those are urgent care.
And you start there.
You'll start to save somedollars on your plan.
(19:45):
The last thing I want to talkabout for employer contribution
is in the large group market wesee a 70-30 cost share split
across all tiers.
That's really the landing pointfor a large employer and it
only kind of goes up from there.
You know, maybe a little bitmore to the employee tier, but
there's more often than notthere is some sort of
(20:07):
contribution, whether it's 50-50, to the employee, spouse,
employee, child, family tier.
Chris Cluff (20:12):
Yeah, that's where the big dollars come in and I
know on our plan.
That's, you know it's triplethe cost to put everybody on
there.
So put the kids on there andeverything, so say we can't get
into health insurance right away.
That's the big elephant in theroom.
It's expensive, we're not ready.
What kind of lower cost orunique benefits are people doing
(20:33):
?
We talked about the dental.
That's an inexpensive one, butis there anything else out there
that people are doing?
Conner Kennedy (20:37):
Yeah, an expensive one, but is there
anything else out there thatpeople are doing?
Yeah, so, like you said, dentalvision, voluntary products
these really aren't going tobreak the bank for an employer
and we even see most employersespecially on the vision right,
you've seen those rates pick up100% of the cost of some of
those policies.
So, dental vision, we've seensome employers pick up 100% of
(20:58):
the cost on an accident or acritical illness or a hospital
deputy plan.
So that's kind of interestingto think about.
Right, those policies are very,very low dollar.
Chris Cluff (21:08):
Most of those policies are less than an hour
of work.
Right, they're $10, $15 a month.
Conner Kennedy (21:12):
They're probably less than what you're paying
monthly for one of your singleemployees on the medical plan.
Right, right.
So those are plans that oneyour employees are going to
really value by working at your,you know, at your company to
have.
And again, they're not.
They're not going to beanywhere close to the medical
plan.
We we kind of call these low nocost benefit solutions, and
(21:34):
there's there's a few otheritems I'd like to talk about.
You know, lifestyle benefits areinteresting.
There's a program called Comptand it's basically kind of like
an enhanced employee stipendprogram.
So it's an app you can giveyour employees, say, $500 a year
.
It's tax-free.
They can use those dollars togo to use them on wellness or,
(21:56):
you know, to get their tireschanged, coffee, food, whatever.
But it's just kind of a littleperk program that your employees
appreciate.
And again, these are low, low,low dollar items, like we were
just talking about low no costinsurance plans.
Home and auto insurance is aninteresting one, mostly for
large employers.
(22:16):
But if you can implement agroup home and auto policy,
again it's no cost to theemployer but it's cheaper for
the employee.
Anything you buy in a group ischeaper.
So that's kind of aninteresting program.
Chris Cluff (22:30):
That's an interesting choice.
So you're saying, put everyonetogether and say, hey, we're
going to pool all of our carinsurance and we want 30 cars in
the parking lot, we want to getcoverage on.
Conner Kennedy (22:40):
Absolutely.
And then you have you know PNCagent go out in group and group.
Chris Cluff (22:42):
That's an interesting kind of Yep.
Conner Kennedy (22:43):
So there's group group home and auto Emergency
savings accounts is aninteresting one.
So it's basically a financialsafety net for so employees
don't have to dip into theirretirement.
You know, just have a littleemergency savings account built
up for each employee that youbring on.
So that's kind of a low,no-cost option.
And then no-cost remote care.
(23:04):
This is kind of interesting.
There's a program called AllyHealth which employees can take
voluntary.
You can offer voluntary oremployer-paid.
It's 100% remote care.
So you can talk to a doctor,you can get a prescription.
You can talk to a doctor, youcan get a prescription.
You can talk to a psychiatrist,all through your smartphone or
(23:27):
on your computer.
Super, super low dollars.
And it's not a benefit, it's aservice.
So say, if you have a largepart-time population like a
restaurant or a resort,something like that, you can
roll out these types of virtualcare programs.
Chris Cluff (23:45):
So it's a Teladoc Doc in a Box Exactly, and it's
an interesting model for sure.
I'm always used to hey, I'veknown my primary care physician,
I have this rapport with them,so it's interesting to have
those conversations kind of withsomebody gosh knows where, but
it's an interesting kind ofmodel.
Conner Kennedy (24:03):
It's different.
It's a different type of model.
It doesn't replace yourhealthcare, but it's a way to
offer some sort of benefitthat's extremely low cost to the
employer or no cost to theemployer and something that your
employees will truly value.
Chris Cluff (24:16):
That's really interesting.
Those are good, inexpensivebenefits.
And they're in the healthcareworld right?
I mean, that's a health benefit, is having access to that kind
of thing.
It's not like you can do thatany other way.
Yep Most of those folks thatare uninsured are probably going
to the ER right, which iscosting them 100 times more than
anything else, right?
Conner Kennedy (24:35):
Yeah, that's what the virtual care platforms
will say.
Is the return on investment?
Is that, you know, I don't knowif it's actually there, right,
but they'll say, you know, bypushing employees to using the
virtual care apps, it will saveon your overall experience.
And again, I'm talking large,large customers.
But you know, I don't know ifthat's 100% true.
(24:57):
But what I do value about thosevirtual care programs is that
they're a service, not a benefit, and it can be offered to
anyone.
So temporary, seasonal,part-timers, it's just people
are always looking for somethingto offer to that employee group
, employer paid, it's really lowdollars and you can
(25:17):
automatically enroll and it'sone flat rate and you're, you
know the, the, the seasonalemployee, their entire family
can utilize the app for, aboutgosh, I don't know, I think it
was like $10 a week or somethinglike that, right, right.
So it's a low, low, low dollars.
Chris Cluff (25:33):
So those low cost kind of things are really great
tools in the toolbox foremployers.
But you, you know what areemployers doing to educate their
clients or their excuse me,their employees about.
You know the different plansand how do you manage those and
that kind of thing.
Conner Kennedy (25:49):
I would say I would lean on your broker and
I'll talk about that in a secondbut I'd also lean on the
carrier apps and their websites.
But I'd also lean on thecarrier apps and their websites.
They've all invested tons ofmoney into their websites and
they're all pretty slick.
At this point, whether you needto find, like we were talking
(26:15):
about before, virtual carein-network providers, there's so
many programs that areavailable to you.
Whether you enroll withUnitedHealthcare, harvardetna,
anthem, blue cross, cho right,signa, they all have a specific
wellness program tied to youknow whether it's um
reimbursement for fitnessclasses, things like that right,
that you may not really knowabout, but but it's included in
(26:36):
your plan exactly.
You're already kind of payingfor it.
So you, you got to takeadvantage of these programs,
that these add ons, that theyhave available to you.
And when I first said, lean onyour broker, you know really
they can do educational sessionsfor your employees, whether
it's at open enrollment orsometime throughout the year.
Say, hey, you know we'd love tobuild a slide deck that just
(26:58):
talks about the value adds ofour programs.
All that stuff's available toyou.
And at Acadia Benefits, ofcourse, we've done recordings
for customers, new hires.
Say, hey, we have this new hire, you send them a link talks
through all the benefits.
It really educates them onwhat's available to them, as
(27:20):
opposed to you know you tryingwith everything else that you're
doing, trying to educate themon what benefit package is
available to them.
Chris Cluff (27:28):
That's great.
Yeah, I think that's reallyimportant.
It's certainly educating theemployee population.
You know, I think everyone sayswhat am I paying for?
This is so expensive.
I go to the doctor, I stillhave to pay, I have to pay, I
have to pay.
But I think trying to createthat value is really important,
Absolutely.
So, what kind of you knowtrends are you seeing in the
industry when?
Where are things headed?
What's?
You know?
(27:49):
What's new, what's, what's old,what's?
Where are things going?
Conner Kennedy (27:53):
Yeah, so I don't want to speak specifically to
Maine, but of course throughoutthe country we have inflation on
everything.
The cost of care goes up everysingle year.
I would probably put medical andpharmacy trend between 9% to
11% every single year.
(28:14):
So when customers come to usand say, why am I getting a 10%
increase every single year?
It's the cost of pharmacies,it's the cost to get your to
receive care, it's the cost ofeverything that they have at the
hospital.
Right, it's.
Everything is increasing everysingle year.
And I would kind of start tothink of the insurance companies
(28:36):
as the middleman, to think ofthe insurance companies as the
middleman.
They're taking a cut of of theof of profit, of course, but
remember they they're insuringwhat you're covering, right?
They're paying out claims.
So if you go to the doctor, thedoctor is filing that claim
with the insurance company.
They're paying out that costand you're paying for that as
(28:57):
well, right?
So they are the middlemanbetween that.
So as things increase aroundthe world, they're going to up
their charges to cover theirexpenses as well.
And state mandates, I think, isa big one as well, right?
We've seen that here in Maine.
When you start to introducedifferent programs that have to
(29:18):
be covered by the medical plan.
It's great, it's a betterbenefit for employees and the
population as a whole, butsomeone has to pay for it the
cost goes up, the cost goes up,so you may be getting a greater
benefit, um, but you're gonna bepaying more in premium over
time.
And state mandates, federalmandates they really end up
driving a ton of the increasesthat we're seeing.
Chris Cluff (29:42):
You talked a lot about the virtual care, but one
of the things I think we've seena lot here in Maine
particularly is kind of theintroduction of direct primary
care, and certainly you knowthere are doctors that just
don't take insurance anymore.
Yep, right, hey, pay me mymonthly fee, pay me when I come.
Right, keep me on retainer.
Are you seeing clients kind ofgo that route and try to pair a
higher deductible plan for thosecatastrophic things and use
(30:05):
those?
Have you seen a lot of that?
Conner Kennedy (30:07):
Yeah, you know it's for specific employers.
You know some companies thathave had their core benefit in
place for a long time.
It's tough to make that change.
We see some new kind of startupcompanies, startup companies
utilizing those types ofdifferent programs.
As you know, Maine is slow toreact to things, so a lot of our
(30:28):
out-of-state customers aredoing some different things.
But Maine as a whole, theNortheast as a whole change is
slow.
So we see most things happeningin other parts of the country.
They will be trickling into theNortheast, for sure, but we
still see a lot of our employersoffering those core offerings.
Chris Cluff (30:48):
And I think for me, it's what your employees expect
Exactly.
I think it's been for so longhealth insurance in particular,
has been tied to the employer.
For so long health insurance inparticular has been tied to the
employer and it's ourresponsibility.
We see, from a payrollperspective, we see a lot more
clients offering a QSERA, whichis a qualified HRA for under 50
(31:09):
employees.
That allows them to give them astipend every month to go buy
the insurance on the marketplace, which sometimes is cheaper.
Certainly, that's not allowedin the larger group settings,
but definitely with the smallergroups that's an option that's
out there.
Conner Kennedy (31:23):
Yeah, we've seen a lot of employers consider the
ICHRA and those two.
The ICHRAs, yeah Right, and Iwould say in the small group
market, the ICHRA over timereally won't save you a ton of
dollars.
You're still going to have toraise your contribution as the
individual marketplace raisestheir rates.
What I've seen is for a largeemployer that's experience rated
(31:47):
with the ICHRA what you can dois that there's a bunch of
different rules where you canclass out certain portions of
the population, whether it'shourly, hourly, by location,
different items like that.
So if you had a population thatyou identified that was really
driving claim costs with theICHRA, you can move that
(32:09):
population back into theindividual marketplace, thus
kind of taking them off of yourexperience.
So we've seen large employersutilize that tactic to help
lower claims costs.
It's aggressive, right, butthese are types of different
tactics that you can use as alarge employer to really lower
your overall spend while stilloffering a great benefit for
(32:32):
your employees.
Right, you still keep thatemployer contribution high for
that ICHRA, but they aren't onyour claims experience anymore.
It sounds like a puzzle, it'slike how do we keep this all
squared away, right, I mean?
Chris Cluff (32:44):
it gets more and more complicated as things get
more and more complicated, right?
I think you know one of thetrends that we've talked about
in all of our you know, mostrecent podcasts is it's just
harder and harder to do businessas a small business owner
because things are getting moreand more and more complicated,
where we just have to focus oneverything.
You have to focus on making thewidget and you have to focus on
taking care of your people andeverything that goes along with
(33:06):
that.
So it's definitely been achallenge, of course.
Conner Kennedy (33:09):
The last part about trends is really pharmacy
costs.
So pharmacy costs is explodingand the trend is much greater
than your medical spend.
So you know what it costs foryou to go visit your primary
care physician really hasn'tchanged in 15, 20 years.
It's gone up slightly, right,but it really hasn't changed a
(33:29):
ton.
Pharmacy costs have skyrocketed.
What the cost is to get aprescription is extremely
expensive to what it used to beand you know, for a small
employer you're not experiencerated but it will still affect
your premiums.
In the overall scheme of things.
The overall trend and increase.
(33:50):
Again, we've talked about that.
Small employers, you havecanned plans available to you.
It's rigid and what you'veprobably seen the past couple of
renewals is that every year thecarrier tweaks your plan right
and some of the major tweaksthat you'll see is to that
pharmacy benefit right.
The past couple of years we'veseen tiers three and four are
(34:10):
subject to deductible now whenthey used to not be right, or
they've added a deductiblecoinsurance with a script max of
, say, $300 or $500.
What that's doing is that theinsurance companies are trying
to protect themselves as much asthey can from those tier three,
tier four, tier five drugs thatare extremely expensive Tier
(34:31):
one, tier two genericmedications.
They're still at your copay.
You can still use coupon codesto get those drugs cheaper.
You can still use coupon codesto get those drugs cheaper.
These high-tier prescriptiondrug costs that we've seen on
experience reports running, say,$85,000 a month.
Right, these drugs are savingpeople's lives, so we have to
remember that.
So that's why they're there.
(34:51):
It's great You're providing abenefit for your employees
that's really saving someone'slife.
On the flip side as well isthat these drugs are driving a
ton of cost on your plan.
They're increasing premiumrates every single year.
So by designing a program sayhaving a specific drug
(35:12):
deductible, you have to meet$1,000 before you pay that
co-pay, things like that thatcan kind of start to tweak your
rates to help save employerdollars as well.
Chris Cluff (35:24):
Interesting.
That's crazy, just theprescription stuff.
Conner Kennedy (35:28):
The prescription drug is a rabbit hole, again in
the small group market.
It's rigid.
There's not a lot you can dostrategy-wise as you get into
the large group market.
You can tweak plan design.
You can tweak, you know, thethe formulary that you offer,
whether it's a premium formularyor a value formulary, um, kind
(35:50):
of covering different sort ofdrugs, and then we're not going
to go down this rabbit hole.
But if you're a largeself-funded employer, there's
tons of options available to you, whether you kind of carve out
your own prescription drugbenefit manager, your own PBM to
manage claim costs, things likethat.
But again, primarily Now youneed someone to manage your
house right, absolutely.
Chris Cluff (36:10):
You know those are way bigger than most.
You know most of our clientsand things we're thinking about.
But yeah, no, I think there's alot to this and I've just my
brain's kind of spinning justthinking about all the different
kind of ways to manage benefitsfor small businesses.
Conner Kennedy (36:24):
Yeah.
Chris Cluff (36:24):
You know we didn't even talk about some of the
other ones.
You know disability plans, lifeand those kind of things.
There's so many options outthere, and again some of them
are relatively low cost,absolutely.
You know, certainly we talkedabout you and I talked a little
bit about, you know, the paidfamily medical leave stuff kind
of sweeping the country andthat's certainly something
that's going to change thelandscape, you know, coming
(36:45):
across too and we'll have to getback together to talk about
that.
Conner Kennedy (36:47):
Yeah, yeah, we can talk about that.
We're going to talk about thatagain at some point, because
there's the rulemaking progressprocess is still happening now,
today, but there's a few thingsthat we do know and still
subject to change.
Right, everything's subject tochange, but the maximum
contribution per employee isgoing to be about 1% of the
(37:08):
individual wage rate, and it'sgoing to be.
That's going to changedepending on your employer size
I believe it's, was it 15employees size I believe it's.
Was it 15 employees, 15employees.
Chris Cluff (37:24):
It's all going to change.
That's the thing and I thinkyou know.
Really what's going to happenis is businesses are going to
have to figure out if it's worthgoing into a state plan like
that.
Or I know there's a lot ofexclusions that potentially
could say hey, if you have aplan, a short-term disability
plan in place already, you maybe able to exempt yourself from
kind of the state plan, but butterm disability plan in place
already you may be able toexempt yourself from kind of the
state plan, but certainlythat's a whole different
(37:45):
conversation for a wholedifferent day and how that's
going to all work.
Conner Kennedy (37:46):
Yeah, I would say timeline wise, right?
We're saying November of 24 iswhen employers need to decide
whether they'd like to jump intothe state pool or decide if
they want to stay in a privatecarrier setting.
If you have a short-termdisability policy in place
already, I would lean on thatcarrier and your broker to make
sure we kind of design your STDpolicy that meets the criteria.
(38:10):
What the state is asking you todo and the good thing about
that about waiting is thatpayroll tax starts in January,
right?
So if you go with the privateplan, you know your premiums due
for the employers is not goingto start till May of 26.
Right, right.
So there's going to be a biggap there where you can save
(38:32):
some dollars.
Of course, depending on whatthat carrier is going to charge
you to manage the plans.
There's a lot of stuff up inthe air.
Still.
We know that a lot of ourcustomers with short-term
disability policies in placetoday are probably going to lean
on their private carriers, butit remains to be seen.
Chris Cluff (38:51):
Still so much to know about that.
Still much to learn for sure.
Well, good, well, thank youvery much, carter.
This has been really good.
We covered a lot of ground andso, well, good, well, thank you
very much, connor.
This has been really good.
We talked, we covered a lot ofground and, like I said, my
head's spinning for sure.
So how do we, how do peoplefind you if they want to get in
touch with you?
Instagram, you know, facebookor anything like that?
Yeah you know Email.
How do people get in touch withyou?
Conner Kennedy (39:14):
if they have questions to follow up.
Chris Cluff (39:16):
You can go to Connor.
Conner Kennedy (39:17):
Kennedy right.
Connor Kennedy at.
Chris Cluff (39:19):
Acadia Benefits.
Conner Kennedy (39:26):
Right.
So Acadia Benefits is just alittle bit about us.
We've been managing benefitplans for over 32 years.
We're based right in Portland,Maine.
We're independently owned andoperated and we have a lot of
long-term customers.
We've been doing this for along time.
We think we do a great job, sofeel free, Absolutely Reach out
to me LinkedIn through ourwebsite, and we'll get back to
you and see what we can do foryou.
Chris Cluff (39:47):
Awesome, great, well, thank you.
So again, be sure to like,follow, subscribe to all of our
channels Instagram, youtube,tiktok, Spotify, apple Podcasts.
Wherever you listen or watch,we're there.
I promise Don't forget to emailus any questions.
If you have questions aboutfuture things you'd like to hear
podcast at papertrailscom.
Otherwise, we will see you nextweek.
(40:08):
Thanks so much.
Thanks for listening to thisweek's episode of Small Business
Big World.
This podcast is a production ofPapertrails.
We are a payroll and HR companybased in Kennebunk, maine, and
we serve small and mid-sizedbusinesses across New England
and the country.
If you found this podcasthelpful, don't forget to follow
us at at Paper Trails Payrollacross all social media
platforms and check us out atpapertrailscom for more
information.
As a reminder, the views,opinions and thoughts expressed
by the hosts and guests alone.
The material presented in thispodcast is for general
(40:29):
information purposes only andshould not be considered legal
or financial advice.
By inviting this guest to ourpodcast, paper Trails does not
imply endorsement of oropposition to any specific
individual.
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