July 23, 2024 • 25 mins
Commercial insurance isn't just about ticking boxes; it's about safeguarding your business's future. This week on "Small Business, Big World," we sit down with Derek Stevenson from Varney Insurance to dissect the essential types of coverage every small business needs and mistakes that they make. From general liability and property insurance to workers' compensation and EPLI, Derek provides a comprehensive guide to securing your business against unforeseen setbacks.
Derek and I discuss the often-overlooked exclusions in property insurance policies that could leave your business vulnerable. As our world becomes increasingly digital, we uncover how this shift impacts insurance underwriting and risk assessment, offering practical advice for staying ahead. Cybersecurity is no longer optional; it's a necessity.
In this episode, we offer actionable tips for business owners to safeguard your operations. This is one not to miss!
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Episode Transcript
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Chris Cluff (00:00):
This is Small Business, big World, our weekly
podcast prepared by the team atPaper Trails.
Owning and running a smallbusiness is hard.
Each week we'll dive into thechallenges, headaches, trends,
fun and excitement of running asmall business.
After all, small businesses arethe heartbeat of America and
our team is here to keep thembeating.
Welcome to Small Business BigWorld, our weekly podcast
(00:22):
discussing all things smallbusiness.
This week, I'm joined by DerekStevenson Welcome, thank you,
derek's.
With Varney Insurance, we'regoing to talk about some
exciting insurance things, kindof the top pitfalls of insurance
for businesses, and certainly Ithink I've been through them
and I'm sure many clients thathave as well.
Absolutely, but yeah, so quickhousekeeping before we get going
, don't forget to like follow,share rate review, all those fun
(00:49):
things.
We are everywhere you are atsmall business, big world.
I would love to chat with youfurther all over the place.
If you have any questions forus or any of our guests,
certainly feel free to email usat podcast at papertrailscom.
So well, great, well, derek.
So talk to me about commercialinsurance.
Right, we're here.
It's an exciting topic.
Derek Stevenson (01:07):
Yeah Well, you teed it up as exciting, so that
had me a little bit nervous.
Chris Cluff (01:09):
Insurance is not usually at the forefront of
excitement, but it's somethingwe all need Absolutely, and
that's all of us business owners.
We kind of get into it andsomeone says, hey, you need to
talk to an insurance agent.
Well, what is that?
What is the most common thingsthat small businesses need in
terms of insurance, types ofpolicies, things like that
Absolutely so right out of thebat.
Derek Stevenson (01:26):
Probably first and foremost is general
liability.
Right, that is your slip andfall lawsuits, your very basic
stuff.
Every single business shoulddefinitely have that you know.
It protects you from peoplecoming on site getting injured,
whether invited or not, I alwaystell.
One of the crazy stories I'veseen is two guys breaking into a
retail shop, getting cut on thewindow on their way in and then
(01:50):
filing suit and these guys wererobbing the place.
I mean it's kind of wild.
So you never know what's goingto come up.
Property insurance for yourassets certainly huge.
And then, as you guys are veryfamiliar with here at Paper
Trails, is you know, if you haveemployees you really need to
consider workers' comp?
Chris Cluff (02:05):
Sure, wait you don't need to consider it, you
have to have it.
You have to have it, right,that's state law, absolutely,
absolutely.
Derek Stevenson (02:11):
And then you get into a lot of the gray area
about independent contractors.
Sure, there's some new materialout that Maine's published and
yeah, those are probably yourbig ones.
And then, if you're driving forwork, got to add auto.
Chris Cluff (02:21):
Yeah for sure.
One piece of that workers' comp.
I know we have a lot of clientsthat take advantage of employee
practices.
Liability insurance that'sprobably something that should
be tacked on to those work compsas well, it should not only be
tacked on.
Derek Stevenson (02:33):
It should really be reviewed a little more
.
There are certain policies thatyou can kind of tack that on
for a little bit of extra money,but they're not always quite
what you want them to be.
For a little bit of extra money, but they're not always quite
what you want them to be.
Epli you definitely want to getfirst and third party coverage.
It's huge.
So when you say first and third.
Chris Cluff (02:52):
What's that?
Derek Stevenson (02:52):
mean so covering both yourself as well
as those that are coming afteryou.
So one of the big examples weuse is if somebody comes in and
applies for a job, it's notnecessarily employment practices
, liability for those you employ.
It's the same about candidatesyou're turning away If there's
any discrimination if there'sany harassment.
Chris Cluff (03:15):
That's what EPI covers.
Yep, absolutely.
So.
I was at a conference last weekand there was a bunch of folks
in California there and theysaid now, because of how crazy
things are in California,they're seeing, you know,
deductibles for an EPLI $25,000,$30,000, $50,000, depending on,
you know, the industry and soforth.
So it's certainly importantcoverage, but, you know, keep an
(03:36):
eye on those things.
We don't want those claims,right?
No, any claims.
We don't want any claims.
No, absolutely so good.
So let's talk about some of thepitfalls.
So we've got, you know, we haveour insurance, we pay our
premiums, which are always toomuch, right?
Yep, forever.
Everyone thinks they're alwaystoo much for what we get.
Yeah, by all means.
So what are the?
What are some of the commonthings?
You know?
You talked about exclusions.
What is that?
What are what are exclusionsand why?
(03:57):
Why are they important?
I guess?
Derek Stevenson (03:58):
Yeah, so every policy is going to have some
level of exclusions, andexclusions are basically a way
for the insurance company to notpay the claim.
All right, so it's them takingout risks that they don't want
to be a part of.
For example, I had mentionedgeneral liability before.
In every just about everygeneral liability policy you'll
(04:19):
find a professional liabilityexclusion.
Professional liabilities, likedesign things, it's working with
numbers, it's more of the whitecollar pen and paper.
If you mess something up there,general liability is not going
to be covered or is not going tocover that because of that
specific exclusion.
And so we've kind of seen thiscycle now of what we call a hard
(04:42):
insurance market.
Underwriters are getting really, really strict on their
guidelines, everything's beingunderwritten harder, and my
impression of it is, instead ofmaybe taking a risk to bring on
more business maybe six, sevenyears ago now, underwriters are
just walking away if there's anyrisk, and so exclusions kind of
(05:02):
give them this extra layer ofprotection.
The problem is a lot of timesthey get put in there and nobody
sees them, and exclusions canreally make or break a policy.
Sure, you're paying forsomething and you may not be
covered.
Yeah, and it's this necessaryevil.
If you're not going to get away, you wouldn't want to pay for a
policy that doesn't haveexclusions.
Some of the things they'reexcluding, you know.
(05:23):
You, for example, chris atPaper Trails, you don't care,
it's not, you don't, you don'toperate in those grounds and
it's fine.
For example, you probably have,I bet, in your insurance policy
, limitations on what you can doin the state of New York, right
, something like that probablydoesn't matter so much, but it's
in there, and a lot more layersof this are being added on.
So I think it's more importantthan ever before to get in and
(05:47):
figure out what your exclusionsare.
Chris Cluff (05:49):
So are exclusions specific to the business or are
they specific to the policy?
Say, hey, I'm going to have mygeneral liability policy.
Everyone in the state of Maine,we're not going to cover
flooding anymore.
Right, We've had a whole other.
Derek Stevenson (06:03):
I know floods are a know floods a whole
different thing.
Chris Cluff (06:05):
So that was a terrible example.
But you know everyone would sayto me you know, we're not going
to cover if you drive a red car, we don't cover red cars, right
.
Or are they going to come inand say hey, derek, you run, you
know, joe's pizza shop.
You know we've decided thatdrivers that deliver pizza and
red cars drive faster and wedon't want to come.
Derek Stevenson (06:20):
Yeah, so great question and because it kind of
goes along in the same aspect ofwhat we're seeing.
Carriers, the ones that areactually insuring you, have had
these sets of exclusions for awhile, right, but they're adding
to them and sometimes they arebecoming client specific.
They are actually excludingthings that a client is doing to
(06:40):
make sure they're not in thoseoperations.
Chris Cluff (06:43):
Yeah, I know, certainly the underwriting seems
to be more and more stringent.
I would say Definitely, forsure.
I know, for the first time everwe did our renewal and they
asked for my employee handbook.
Yep, right To say do you haveone of those?
And unfortunately, a lot of ourclients I know don't have
handbooks, don't have a lot ofpolicies, and so that's
something that probably they'regoing to say oh, red flag, right
, epli premium just went up,epli, whatever.
(07:05):
Just you know.
Yeah, you know, deductible justwent up because you don't have
your policies in place, youdon't have your organization,
and so, which is hard for asmall business, oh, for sure,
for sure.
What are the more commonexclusions that you see Are
there?
Is there anything specific?
Derek Stevenson (07:20):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know you had kind ofgotten into it right away.
Flood, Flood is a huge oneright now that probably no one
in Maine was really talkingabout, except for very coastal
territories.
Now we're seeing some prettymajor rivers that have flooded.
We've seen the coast flood inmore than we've expected, more
frequent.
I would say just about everyproperty policy has a flood
(07:41):
exclusion and people don'trealize that.
And we're getting a lot ofcalls now from people who say I
can't believe I need flood now,but I do.
Chris Cluff (07:49):
Similarly, earthquake, same idea, it's on
there and but sometimes you knowthe flood has to do with just
the groundwater, right.
We've For sure We've had areally wet couple of years and
you know people have had waterin the basements that never had
water before right.
Derek Stevenson (08:02):
Yeah, it's just .
It's a thawing that we've neverexperienced at these alarming
rates and yeah, the flood hasbeen a very hot top.
Chris Cluff (08:16):
I always look at mine and it's always got the
terrorism exclusion.
If someone comes and blows mybuilding up, it's not covered,
which is little to no chance, Iguess.
Derek Stevenson (08:25):
Well, I can make you feel slightly better
about that.
So the Terrorism Act TRIA iswhat we call it T-R-I-A
basically came about after 9-11.
Sure, and it was a way to sayyou are making an
acknowledgement here, knowingI'm either electing or declining
terrorism coverage.
And to take it one step further, you're only going to be paid
(08:49):
on a terrorism claim if thegovernment is declaring it an
act of terrorism.
Doesn't happen a whole lot.
There's been some horrendousevents that have happened that
weren't declared terrorism.
So for the most part it's toughto justify needing that.
In many places in Maine forsure.
Chris Cluff (09:04):
Yeah, it's always interesting to see what you know
, what the insurance companywants to take the risk on and
what they don't, and it seemslike these days they don't want
to take the risk on hardlyanything For sure.
Derek Stevenson (09:12):
For sure, and they want control right.
The underwriters want tocontrol the risk, know what it
is, be able to price it andaccount for it.
You know probably the nextbiggest one that you're seeing
is pollution.
Pollution is something you know.
We're very environmentallyconscious right now as a nation
hopefully a world as well andyou know if you are causing
(09:32):
pollutants to enter a waterwayor you know polluting some
farmland, something along thoselines, it's probably not covered
unless you have a supplementalpolicy.
Chris Cluff (09:41):
Interesting, and certainly here that seems to be.
We hear that in Maine all thetime with the PFAS thing.
Yep, that's the big hot topicright now.
Derek Stevenson (09:47):
Great example too PFAS now being added as an
exclusion, written right out asPFAS, and it's just you know.
Another way to gain controlover your risk.
Chris Cluff (09:57):
Interesting.
So certainly you know insuranceis important, but making sure
that you have the coverage forwhat you need and what your
business needs.
Derek Stevenson (10:02):
And you don't want to pay for stuff you don't
need, right?
So it does work both ways,right?
You look?
Chris Cluff (10:06):
at the policy and have a great agent to do so.
Good.
So other things, you know,pitfalls people fall into in
terms of contracts, right?
So what sort of contracts arepeople entering into that they
may have issues with?
Derek Stevenson (10:18):
Yeah.
So especially on the smallbusiness end, people feel like
if they take a contract fromsomeone let's say a
subcontractor takes a contractfrom a GC a lot of times
especially you're starting out,you're a smaller business,
you're so excited to see thatcontract.
You look right to the dollarsign to see what the pay is
(10:40):
going to be.
You look at some of theitemizations but oftentimes the
insurance section is completelyskipped and a lot of times these
GCs are trained to kind ofmitigate as much of their own
risk, oftentimes by direction ofthese insurance carriers, and
you're taking on a lot more riskthan you want to when you're
entering these agreements.
So I think the biggest takeawayI would have is look at that
(11:00):
section and don't be afraid topush on it.
You know, the biggest one I seeis a lot of these larger GCs
with inner city experience andbig projects that hire a
subcontractor.
They want them to carry a $5million umbrella.
Well, that's a massiveinsurance expense, right, for a
lot of these subcontractors,especially those without a lot
of credibility, maybe they'rejust starting out.
(11:21):
Push back, don't be afraid topush back.
Have your insurance agent pushback and think could I possibly
do $5 million worth of damageand why do I cover that?
Chris Cluff (11:30):
Yeah.
So it's interesting.
I know, as we're talking aboutthis, we had a client just last
year.
So they did subcontract workfor a developer, built a big
condo complex, and this was kindof their last hurrah.
You know development beforethey retired and you know they
cut some corners and so thishomeowners association now is
going after them.
Well, now, guess what?
Guess who they're also goingafter is all the subs, right,
(11:51):
every sub.
And you know the sub.
We have a client that was thesub and he's like hey, listen, I
drew this, I built this to yourspecs, I did it, you know.
Now he's having to go back andshow off, you know, show that he
did everything the right wayand did the work you know in
professional work and likemanner, and certainly he's had
to file a claim on his insuranceto help cover those legal fees
to defend himself, which iscrazy.
(12:21):
So you know, certainlyunderstanding those contracts
when you're getting in there isimportant.
So what about online?
You know, in terms of, you know, exposure, right.
So we all you know the worldhas gone online today and you
know it's everyone's makingfunny TikTok videos.
But how does that impact yourinsurance?
Derek Stevenson (12:31):
So way more than you'd ever think.
So you know, to kind of startoff with the grand scheme of
things, we were talking aboutunderwriting Way more strict.
Right, they're looking intothings a lot more.
They're understandingoperations more than ever.
What is going to give you thebetter look into a business than
seeing social media?
And a lot of times it canbackfire.
(12:54):
We've seen quite a few differentexamples.
I remember very specifically anauto garage shop that was
basically hawking, you know,used parts out of the lot as
well, and the insurance companysaid, no, we're not taking that
product liability with the partsyou're strapping on.
These cars are selling as usedparts.
You know, we see a lot of theselandscapers who decide that
(13:16):
they want to plow through thewinter.
You know anything along thoselines that you're putting online
.
That insurance company is goingto know and that's okay,
because we want to be forthrightwith our operations and we want
to make sure we're covered forthings like plowing.
But it can backfire and sobefore you post, I would always
kind of go into it with thismentality of an underwriter is
(13:38):
going to look at that and whatare they going to think.
And I've seen some pretty wildscenarios I know I shared with
you a little bit.
So there's a chuckle starting.
The craziest story I have is amotorcycle repair shop and the
guys wanted to create someattention.
They had a YouTube channel andat lunchtime they went out in
(14:00):
the parking lot and jumped some50cc mini bikes over some beer
cans and that was enough.
And you know they weren't onshift.
Nobody was there, there were nocustomers.
They handled themselves wellfrom a jumping dirt bike
standpoint, but that was all ittook for that underwriter to say
(14:20):
wait a minute, what is going onat that place?
Well, if you're doing it offthe clock, you're probably doing
it on.
Cans were full.
We hadn't even drank them yet.
So you know we've seen it all.
But I would just say you know,caution on there.
If you're picking up newoperations, try and get in front
(14:43):
of it first.
Talk to your agent.
Don't make the post that we'redoing something new or something
crazy until you've Well, I mean, it's true.
Chris Cluff (14:51):
So we're going to add a new line of business here
in our business and the firstthing, you know, I hired someone
.
She starts next month.
I went and saw my insuranceagent and said, hey, okay, this
is a new service we're going tooffer Yep, does my policy cover
it?
Does you know, or do we need tochange it?
Do we need to add something?
Because now we are going intomore of that professional
liability world.
Definitely, you know, we'regoing to start offering HR
(15:11):
consulting services and we'regoing to start being giving you
a business, true business adviceeven more than we do today.
So you know, I want to makesure that we're covered in terms
of that and certainly I'mannouncing to the world that
we're going to be doing thatbecause I want the money to come
in Absolutely.
So you know, we want to makesure that we're ready for that.
(15:31):
So, you know, just think abouthow you do it.
Derek Stevenson (15:33):
Yeah, you just got to be a little careful.
Right, you can still driveattention without red flags.
Chris Cluff (15:38):
Yeah, it was interesting Similar story.
We had a client that did somework for you know a public
entity and it was a storybecause there was some damage
and you know they were on thenews and their guys were on the
news doing repair work, you know, and you and the insurance
company saw they were on liftswithout hard hats or something
like that and I don't think theyended up getting dropped, but I
know there was like the SpanishInquisition and basically the
(16:02):
workers' comp company came backand said okay, we are running
you through an entire trainingprocess, workplace safety, all
this other stuff, which in thatcase probably came out as a
positive, but it still couldhave gone bad Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah, not even that they weretrying to be out there.
They just happened to be fixingthe problem and they saw
probably the underwriter saw iton the six o'clock news,
unfortunately, and they kind ofget screwed.
(16:25):
So that's certainly.
That's a really good point forall of us in business.
To think about is what are weputting online, and just even
with your personal stuff youdon't want to put yourself, you
know, as do-it-yourself things.
Derek Stevenson (16:38):
I think about it too in the political
atmosphere of how polarizingeverything is right now.
Think again, you know, in termsof what that underwriter is
looking at, right?
I always want to think thatunderwriter may have either side
of that spectrum covered.
They may be right in the middle, but I don't want to offend
them, as they're looking into me, right, and I am all for free
speech and do it, and that'sgreat.
(16:59):
I'm not going to treat youdifferent, but I can't tell you
what's going to go on in thatunderwriter's brain when they
see some of the posts.
So yeah, try and keep it pretty, pretty easy going.
Chris Cluff (17:09):
Interesting.
So certainly, you know, in thisday and age.
We talked about online stuffthat flows into cyber right.
So have you seen, you know, myopinion probably, is most
businesses today need some sortof cyber coverage because we're
all doing things online, we'retaking payments online, we're
doing.
You know, we have this exposurein our industry.
We have a lot of private datathat is potentially exposed and
(17:30):
certainly, you know, I think, wehave a very expensive, very
high deductible cyber liabilitypolicy.
But you know, certainly Godforbid, knock on wood we have an
issue, you know.
I'm hoping that that helpsmitigate some of that a bit.
But what are you seeing interms of, you know, cyber
mistakes and people doing andnot doing it?
Derek Stevenson (17:50):
Yeah, so you know a couple of the big things
right now is there's still a lotof pushback.
At this point, when I'm goingto meet with a client, it
doesn't matter what they'redoing, I am presenting cyber.
I want you to at least knowabout it, know what your risks
are, know what your price is tocover those gaps.
Then you make the decisionright.
I'll help you along the way,but it's your decision.
(18:11):
Right, I'll help you along theway, but it's your decision.
I'm still seeing a ton ofpushback, and one of the biggest
factors that we see is peoplehave a lot of faith in their
vendors.
Whether that be you know theircard processing company.
Whether it be you know whateverthey're using their expense
software invoicing, whatever youare sending is probably not as
(18:34):
safe as you think.
It is Sure, and I have a hardtime thinking if we have a major
leak, a breach of data from oneof these big time processing
companies.
Yes, they have insurance.
It is not enough to covermillions of people.
Yeah, they're coming out.
There are plenty of ambulancechases out there coming after
everyone Exactly, and when thatpool dries up, what are you left
(18:55):
with?
It's a scary, scary thought.
Chris Cluff (19:06):
Yeah, and I think you know, not even like you said
you know the fishing and thevishing and all that kind of
crazy stuff that you know wedeal with every day.
Quite frankly, you know, and Ithink it's really important to
make sure that we're you know,you're covering for all areas of
possibility.
And let me tell you, folks, thescammers are getting better,
right, yeah, yes, and they aretaking.
(19:30):
You know the firewalls aregetting better, you know the
technology is getting better,but we are the weak point Right,
definitely the person answeringthe phone, the person checking
their email.
We are the weak point Right andthat has happened too many
times to our clients,unfortunately.
Derek Stevenson (19:50):
I've also found , chris, that you know a lot of
times the things people havetold me in the past about how
they are safe.
You know what they have broughtin for firewalls, for example.
You know, and they think that'scovering them.
That is now the bare minimum topurchase cyber insurance.
One of the big things isinvoice manipulation, right?
So, chris, you send me aninvoice to pay for studio time
for podcasting.
You leave for the end of theday and a hacker has stole your
email.
Well then, the hacker emailsand says Derek, I'm sorry, but
(20:13):
these are the actual numbers.
I want you to put it in.
I forgot.
We just changed our bank lastweek.
Seems mild to me.
I go ahead and make thatpayment while it's gone and in
you know units of Bitcoin beforewe know it.
Right, it's a really scary thing, and the only way that carriers
are offering invoicemanipulation insurance coverage
is with multi-factorauthentication.
(20:33):
So that's something where, acouple of years ago, people said
I'm fine, all my remote usersare using MFA multi-factor
authentication.
So I know we're not going to be.
You know nobody's going to geton.
Well, now you can't even getthe coverage unless you have it.
Well, now, you can't even getthe coverage unless you have it.
Chris Cluff (20:48):
Oh, I mean our world, everything you do.
I need a text code or anauthentication code or, you know
, a face ID or something which,quite frankly, has become quite
a pain in the ass In someregards.
But it's absolutely necessaryto make sure that we have that
because, like I said, these guysare out there scamming away,
they're trying to find the weaklink, they're trying to find a
(21:09):
way in, and you know certainly Iknow we've had to go through
certain assessments and auditsto prove our you know
responsibility in terms of thateducation and requirements that
we have.
We just went through oneyesterday from our bank that our
bank said hey, you move moneyaround, you need to have this
audit every year to make surethat you're following the rules,
you're doing the right things.
And actually I haven't thoughtabout this, but I probably
(21:29):
should provide that to theinsurance underwriter to say,
hey, we are following the rulesright, yep, so that would be a
good one too.
But what other types ofassessments and things like that
are you seeing?
Derek Stevenson (21:38):
So I would say at this point, everybody should
be considering a cyber quote,and there's some really good
companies out there that areproviding a cyber risk
assessment.
I love it because I am not anIT guy, right.
I just don't know a lot of thestuff that comes out on this
assessment.
I know the insurance aspect ofit, but I don't know.
You know your site, host andmigration and certificates and
(22:01):
things like this, so you'regetting a risk assessment just
by getting a quote.
I'll turn it over to employersso they can see exactly where
their vulnerabilities are.
You can share it with your ITfolks.
If you decide at that point thatyou don't need it, I'm fine
with that too, but let's atleast go through that exercise
and make sure, because the lastthing I want ultimately as an
(22:22):
insurance agent, what would bethe worst feeling in the world
is hey, I'm claiming this, ohwait, I don't have coverage.
Well, why not?
And I don't want them to sufferfrom that claim.
But if you can, at least on myend, you know CYA cover your own
butt.
If you can, at least do thatand show them I did, I did try,
we went through this and youopted not to.
(22:43):
Let's be simple, a littlebetter at night.
Chris Cluff (22:50):
Absolutely so.
We've talked about a lot ofpitfalls.
We've talked about theexclusions.
We've talked about differentcontract issues, websites,
online things, cyber.
You know, is there any onetakeaway that you think you know
?
When you're talking to a client, pay attention to this, Any one
of those, or anything else.
Derek Stevenson (23:01):
Yeah, I think the biggest tip I would give is
kind of going back to theexclusions.
The number one thing you can doin your insurance policy is get
a digital copy.
Push control F when you open it.
That allows you to find a wordwithin a document type an
exclusion.
Sit down and grab a beer andsee what it says, because it's a
scary path.
Chris Cluff (23:23):
You really need to advocate for yourself and that's
the best way to do it Of course, and I tell clients all the
time yes, you have these greatadvisors, we have great
insurance agents, we have greatattorneys and accountants and so
forth, but you have to takeaction in your own business as
well, and you have to takeresponsibility for what you're
buying and what you're doing andhow you're operating.
(23:46):
And and it's a lot right Uh,that's getting.
I feel like life is gettingmore and more complicated every
day, yep, and certainly this isone of those things.
Absolutely Awesome.
Well, derek, thank you so much.
Derek from Varney Insurance.
How do people find you Is there?
Derek Stevenson (23:59):
Best way to find me would definitely be on
LinkedIn.
I'm sharing a lot of goodcontent info on there that
people can get.
Chris Cluff (24:05):
Other than that.
Look, derek Stevenson LinkedInVarney insurance.
That'd be great, absolutely,and if you can find them on
Instagram, let them know.
Yeah, good luck, send them a DM, well, good, well, thanks again
, and be sure to like, follow,share, subscribe, rate, review,
uh, everywhere you get yourpodcasts or subscribe from
everywhere.
Again, any questions for us?
For Derek, if you can't getahold of me, can't find him on
(24:26):
Instagram, feel free to email us.
We're at podcast atpapertrailscom and we'll be
happy to get you in touch.
So thanks, so much everyone.
We'll see you again next week,thanks for listening to this
week's episode of a smallbusiness, big world.
This podcast is a production ofPapertrails.
We are a payroll and HR companybased in Kennebunk, maine, and
we follow us at at paper trailspayroll across all social media
(24:49):
platforms and check us out atpaper trailscom for more
information.
As a reminder, the views,opinions and thoughts expressed
by the hosts and guests alone.
The material presented in thispodcast is for general
information purposes only andshould not be considered legal
or financial advice.
By inviting this guest to ourpodcast, paper trails does not
imply endorsement of oropposition to any specific
individual organization, productor service.
This is Small Business, big World, our weekly
podcast prepared by the team atPaper Trails.
Owning and running a smallbusiness is hard.
Each week we'll dive into thechallenges, headaches, trends,
fun and excitement of running asmall business.
After all, small businesses arethe heartbeat of America and
our team is here to keep thembeating.
Welcome to Small Business BigWorld, our weekly podcast
(00:22):
discussing all things smallbusiness.
This week, I'm joined by DerekStevenson Welcome, thank you,
derek's.
With Varney Insurance, we'regoing to talk about some
exciting insurance things, kindof the top pitfalls of insurance
for businesses, and certainly Ithink I've been through them
and I'm sure many clients thathave as well.
Absolutely, but yeah, so quickhousekeeping before we get going
, don't forget to like follow,share rate review, all those fun
(00:49):
things.
We are everywhere you are atsmall business, big world.
I would love to chat with youfurther all over the place.
If you have any questions forus or any of our guests,
certainly feel free to email usat podcast at papertrailscom.
So well, great, well, derek.
So talk to me about commercialinsurance.
Right, we're here.
It's an exciting topic.
Derek Stevenson (01:07):
Yeah Well, you teed it up as exciting, so that
had me a little bit nervous.
Chris Cluff (01:09):
Insurance is not usually at the forefront of
excitement, but it's somethingwe all need Absolutely, and
that's all of us business owners.
We kind of get into it andsomeone says, hey, you need to
talk to an insurance agent.
Well, what is that?
What is the most common thingsthat small businesses need in
terms of insurance, types ofpolicies, things like that
Absolutely so right out of thebat.
Derek Stevenson (01:26):
Probably first and foremost is general
liability.
Right, that is your slip andfall lawsuits, your very basic
stuff.
Every single business shoulddefinitely have that you know.
It protects you from peoplecoming on site getting injured,
whether invited or not, I alwaystell.
One of the crazy stories I'veseen is two guys breaking into a
retail shop, getting cut on thewindow on their way in and then
(01:50):
filing suit and these guys wererobbing the place.
I mean it's kind of wild.
So you never know what's goingto come up.
Property insurance for yourassets certainly huge.
And then, as you guys are veryfamiliar with here at Paper
Trails, is you know, if you haveemployees you really need to
consider workers' comp?
Chris Cluff (02:05):
Sure, wait you don't need to consider it, you
have to have it.
You have to have it, right,that's state law, absolutely,
absolutely.
Derek Stevenson (02:11):
And then you get into a lot of the gray area
about independent contractors.
Sure, there's some new materialout that Maine's published and
yeah, those are probably yourbig ones.
And then, if you're driving forwork, got to add auto.
Chris Cluff (02:21):
Yeah for sure.
One piece of that workers' comp.
I know we have a lot of clientsthat take advantage of employee
practices.
Liability insurance that'sprobably something that should
be tacked on to those work compsas well, it should not only be
tacked on.
Derek Stevenson (02:33):
It should really be reviewed a little more
.
There are certain policies thatyou can kind of tack that on
for a little bit of extra money,but they're not always quite
what you want them to be.
For a little bit of extra money, but they're not always quite
what you want them to be.
Epli you definitely want to getfirst and third party coverage.
It's huge.
So when you say first and third.
Chris Cluff (02:52):
What's that?
Derek Stevenson (02:52):
mean so covering both yourself as well
as those that are coming afteryou.
So one of the big examples weuse is if somebody comes in and
applies for a job, it's notnecessarily employment practices
, liability for those you employ.
It's the same about candidatesyou're turning away If there's
any discrimination if there'sany harassment.
Chris Cluff (03:15):
That's what EPI covers.
Yep, absolutely.
So.
I was at a conference last weekand there was a bunch of folks
in California there and theysaid now, because of how crazy
things are in California,they're seeing, you know,
deductibles for an EPLI $25,000,$30,000, $50,000, depending on,
you know, the industry and soforth.
So it's certainly importantcoverage, but, you know, keep an
(03:36):
eye on those things.
We don't want those claims,right?
No, any claims.
We don't want any claims.
No, absolutely so good.
So let's talk about some of thepitfalls.
So we've got, you know, we haveour insurance, we pay our
premiums, which are always toomuch, right?
Yep, forever.
Everyone thinks they're alwaystoo much for what we get.
Yeah, by all means.
So what are the?
What are some of the commonthings?
You know?
You talked about exclusions.
What is that?
What are what are exclusionsand why?
(03:57):
Why are they important?
I guess?
Derek Stevenson (03:58):
Yeah, so every policy is going to have some
level of exclusions, andexclusions are basically a way
for the insurance company to notpay the claim.
All right, so it's them takingout risks that they don't want
to be a part of.
For example, I had mentionedgeneral liability before.
In every just about everygeneral liability policy you'll
(04:19):
find a professional liabilityexclusion.
Professional liabilities, likedesign things, it's working with
numbers, it's more of the whitecollar pen and paper.
If you mess something up there,general liability is not going
to be covered or is not going tocover that because of that
specific exclusion.
And so we've kind of seen thiscycle now of what we call a hard
(04:42):
insurance market.
Underwriters are getting really, really strict on their
guidelines, everything's beingunderwritten harder, and my
impression of it is, instead ofmaybe taking a risk to bring on
more business maybe six, sevenyears ago now, underwriters are
just walking away if there's anyrisk, and so exclusions kind of
(05:02):
give them this extra layer ofprotection.
The problem is a lot of timesthey get put in there and nobody
sees them, and exclusions canreally make or break a policy.
Sure, you're paying forsomething and you may not be
covered.
Yeah, and it's this necessaryevil.
If you're not going to get away, you wouldn't want to pay for a
policy that doesn't haveexclusions.
Some of the things they'reexcluding, you know.
(05:23):
You, for example, chris atPaper Trails, you don't care,
it's not, you don't, you don'toperate in those grounds and
it's fine.
For example, you probably have,I bet, in your insurance policy
, limitations on what you can doin the state of New York, right
, something like that probablydoesn't matter so much, but it's
in there, and a lot more layersof this are being added on.
So I think it's more importantthan ever before to get in and
(05:47):
figure out what your exclusionsare.
Chris Cluff (05:49):
So are exclusions specific to the business or are
they specific to the policy?
Say, hey, I'm going to have mygeneral liability policy.
Everyone in the state of Maine,we're not going to cover
flooding anymore.
Right, We've had a whole other.
Derek Stevenson (06:03):
I know floods are a know floods a whole
different thing.
Chris Cluff (06:05):
So that was a terrible example.
But you know everyone would sayto me you know, we're not going
to cover if you drive a red car, we don't cover red cars, right
.
Or are they going to come inand say hey, derek, you run, you
know, joe's pizza shop.
You know we've decided thatdrivers that deliver pizza and
red cars drive faster and wedon't want to come.
Derek Stevenson (06:20):
Yeah, so great question and because it kind of
goes along in the same aspect ofwhat we're seeing.
Carriers, the ones that areactually insuring you, have had
these sets of exclusions for awhile, right, but they're adding
to them and sometimes they arebecoming client specific.
They are actually excludingthings that a client is doing to
(06:40):
make sure they're not in thoseoperations.
Chris Cluff (06:43):
Yeah, I know, certainly the underwriting seems
to be more and more stringent.
I would say Definitely, forsure.
I know, for the first time everwe did our renewal and they
asked for my employee handbook.
Yep, right To say do you haveone of those?
And unfortunately, a lot of ourclients I know don't have
handbooks, don't have a lot ofpolicies, and so that's
something that probably they'regoing to say oh, red flag, right
, epli premium just went up,epli, whatever.
(07:05):
Just you know.
Yeah, you know, deductible justwent up because you don't have
your policies in place, youdon't have your organization,
and so, which is hard for asmall business, oh, for sure,
for sure.
What are the more commonexclusions that you see Are
there?
Is there anything specific?
Derek Stevenson (07:20):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know you had kind ofgotten into it right away.
Flood, Flood is a huge oneright now that probably no one
in Maine was really talkingabout, except for very coastal
territories.
Now we're seeing some prettymajor rivers that have flooded.
We've seen the coast flood inmore than we've expected, more
frequent.
I would say just about everyproperty policy has a flood
(07:41):
exclusion and people don'trealize that.
And we're getting a lot ofcalls now from people who say I
can't believe I need flood now,but I do.
Chris Cluff (07:49):
Similarly, earthquake, same idea, it's on
there and but sometimes you knowthe flood has to do with just
the groundwater, right.
We've For sure We've had areally wet couple of years and
you know people have had waterin the basements that never had
water before right.
Derek Stevenson (08:02):
Yeah, it's just .
It's a thawing that we've neverexperienced at these alarming
rates and yeah, the flood hasbeen a very hot top.
Chris Cluff (08:16):
I always look at mine and it's always got the
terrorism exclusion.
If someone comes and blows mybuilding up, it's not covered,
which is little to no chance, Iguess.
Derek Stevenson (08:25):
Well, I can make you feel slightly better
about that.
So the Terrorism Act TRIA iswhat we call it T-R-I-A
basically came about after 9-11.
Sure, and it was a way to sayyou are making an
acknowledgement here, knowingI'm either electing or declining
terrorism coverage.
And to take it one step further, you're only going to be paid
(08:49):
on a terrorism claim if thegovernment is declaring it an
act of terrorism.
Doesn't happen a whole lot.
There's been some horrendousevents that have happened that
weren't declared terrorism.
So for the most part it's toughto justify needing that.
In many places in Maine forsure.
Chris Cluff (09:04):
Yeah, it's always interesting to see what you know
, what the insurance companywants to take the risk on and
what they don't, and it seemslike these days they don't want
to take the risk on hardlyanything For sure.
Derek Stevenson (09:12):
For sure, and they want control right.
The underwriters want tocontrol the risk, know what it
is, be able to price it andaccount for it.
You know probably the nextbiggest one that you're seeing
is pollution.
Pollution is something you know.
We're very environmentallyconscious right now as a nation
hopefully a world as well andyou know if you are causing
(09:32):
pollutants to enter a waterwayor you know polluting some
farmland, something along thoselines, it's probably not covered
unless you have a supplementalpolicy.
Chris Cluff (09:41):
Interesting, and certainly here that seems to be.
We hear that in Maine all thetime with the PFAS thing.
Yep, that's the big hot topicright now.
Derek Stevenson (09:47):
Great example too PFAS now being added as an
exclusion, written right out asPFAS, and it's just you know.
Another way to gain controlover your risk.
Chris Cluff (09:57):
Interesting.
So certainly you know insuranceis important, but making sure
that you have the coverage forwhat you need and what your
business needs.
Derek Stevenson (10:02):
And you don't want to pay for stuff you don't
need, right?
So it does work both ways,right?
You look?
Chris Cluff (10:06):
at the policy and have a great agent to do so.
Good.
So other things, you know,pitfalls people fall into in
terms of contracts, right?
So what sort of contracts arepeople entering into that they
may have issues with?
Derek Stevenson (10:18):
Yeah.
So especially on the smallbusiness end, people feel like
if they take a contract fromsomeone let's say a
subcontractor takes a contractfrom a GC a lot of times
especially you're starting out,you're a smaller business,
you're so excited to see thatcontract.
You look right to the dollarsign to see what the pay is
(10:40):
going to be.
You look at some of theitemizations but oftentimes the
insurance section is completelyskipped and a lot of times these
GCs are trained to kind ofmitigate as much of their own
risk, oftentimes by direction ofthese insurance carriers, and
you're taking on a lot more riskthan you want to when you're
entering these agreements.
So I think the biggest takeawayI would have is look at that
(11:00):
section and don't be afraid topush on it.
You know, the biggest one I seeis a lot of these larger GCs
with inner city experience andbig projects that hire a
subcontractor.
They want them to carry a $5million umbrella.
Well, that's a massiveinsurance expense, right, for a
lot of these subcontractors,especially those without a lot
of credibility, maybe they'rejust starting out.
(11:21):
Push back, don't be afraid topush back.
Have your insurance agent pushback and think could I possibly
do $5 million worth of damageand why do I cover that?
Chris Cluff (11:30):
Yeah.
So it's interesting.
I know, as we're talking aboutthis, we had a client just last
year.
So they did subcontract workfor a developer, built a big
condo complex, and this was kindof their last hurrah.
You know development beforethey retired and you know they
cut some corners and so thishomeowners association now is
going after them.
Well, now, guess what?
Guess who they're also goingafter is all the subs, right,
(11:51):
every sub.
And you know the sub.
We have a client that was thesub and he's like hey, listen, I
drew this, I built this to yourspecs, I did it, you know.
Now he's having to go back andshow off, you know, show that he
did everything the right wayand did the work you know in
professional work and likemanner, and certainly he's had
to file a claim on his insuranceto help cover those legal fees
to defend himself, which iscrazy.
(12:21):
So you know, certainlyunderstanding those contracts
when you're getting in there isimportant.
So what about online?
You know, in terms of, you know, exposure, right.
So we all you know the worldhas gone online today and you
know it's everyone's makingfunny TikTok videos.
But how does that impact yourinsurance?
Derek Stevenson (12:31):
So way more than you'd ever think.
So you know, to kind of startoff with the grand scheme of
things, we were talking aboutunderwriting Way more strict.
Right, they're looking intothings a lot more.
They're understandingoperations more than ever.
What is going to give you thebetter look into a business than
seeing social media?
And a lot of times it canbackfire.
(12:54):
We've seen quite a few differentexamples.
I remember very specifically anauto garage shop that was
basically hawking, you know,used parts out of the lot as
well, and the insurance companysaid, no, we're not taking that
product liability with the partsyou're strapping on.
These cars are selling as usedparts.
You know, we see a lot of theselandscapers who decide that
(13:16):
they want to plow through thewinter.
You know anything along thoselines that you're putting online
.
That insurance company is goingto know and that's okay,
because we want to be forthrightwith our operations and we want
to make sure we're covered forthings like plowing.
But it can backfire and sobefore you post, I would always
kind of go into it with thismentality of an underwriter is
(13:38):
going to look at that and whatare they going to think.
And I've seen some pretty wildscenarios I know I shared with
you a little bit.
So there's a chuckle starting.
The craziest story I have is amotorcycle repair shop and the
guys wanted to create someattention.
They had a YouTube channel andat lunchtime they went out in
(14:00):
the parking lot and jumped some50cc mini bikes over some beer
cans and that was enough.
And you know they weren't onshift.
Nobody was there, there were nocustomers.
They handled themselves wellfrom a jumping dirt bike
standpoint, but that was all ittook for that underwriter to say
(14:20):
wait a minute, what is going onat that place?
Well, if you're doing it offthe clock, you're probably doing
it on.
Cans were full.
We hadn't even drank them yet.
So you know we've seen it all.
But I would just say you know,caution on there.
If you're picking up newoperations, try and get in front
(14:43):
of it first.
Talk to your agent.
Don't make the post that we'redoing something new or something
crazy until you've Well, I mean, it's true.
Chris Cluff (14:51):
So we're going to add a new line of business here
in our business and the firstthing, you know, I hired someone
.
She starts next month.
I went and saw my insuranceagent and said, hey, okay, this
is a new service we're going tooffer Yep, does my policy cover
it?
Does you know, or do we need tochange it?
Do we need to add something?
Because now we are going intomore of that professional
liability world.
Definitely, you know, we'regoing to start offering HR
(15:11):
consulting services and we'regoing to start being giving you
a business, true business adviceeven more than we do today.
So you know, I want to makesure that we're covered in terms
of that and certainly I'mannouncing to the world that
we're going to be doing thatbecause I want the money to come
in Absolutely.
So you know, we want to makesure that we're ready for that.
(15:31):
So, you know, just think abouthow you do it.
Derek Stevenson (15:33):
Yeah, you just got to be a little careful.
Right, you can still driveattention without red flags.
Chris Cluff (15:38):
Yeah, it was interesting Similar story.
We had a client that did somework for you know a public
entity and it was a storybecause there was some damage
and you know they were on thenews and their guys were on the
news doing repair work, you know, and you and the insurance
company saw they were on liftswithout hard hats or something
like that and I don't think theyended up getting dropped, but I
know there was like the SpanishInquisition and basically the
(16:02):
workers' comp company came backand said okay, we are running
you through an entire trainingprocess, workplace safety, all
this other stuff, which in thatcase probably came out as a
positive, but it still couldhave gone bad Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah, not even that they weretrying to be out there.
They just happened to be fixingthe problem and they saw
probably the underwriter saw iton the six o'clock news,
unfortunately, and they kind ofget screwed.
(16:25):
So that's certainly.
That's a really good point forall of us in business.
To think about is what are weputting online, and just even
with your personal stuff youdon't want to put yourself, you
know, as do-it-yourself things.
Derek Stevenson (16:38):
I think about it too in the political
atmosphere of how polarizingeverything is right now.
Think again, you know, in termsof what that underwriter is
looking at, right?
I always want to think thatunderwriter may have either side
of that spectrum covered.
They may be right in the middle, but I don't want to offend
them, as they're looking into me, right, and I am all for free
speech and do it, and that'sgreat.
(16:59):
I'm not going to treat youdifferent, but I can't tell you
what's going to go on in thatunderwriter's brain when they
see some of the posts.
So yeah, try and keep it pretty, pretty easy going.
Chris Cluff (17:09):
Interesting.
So certainly, you know, in thisday and age.
We talked about online stuffthat flows into cyber right.
So have you seen, you know, myopinion probably, is most
businesses today need some sortof cyber coverage because we're
all doing things online, we'retaking payments online, we're
doing.
You know, we have this exposurein our industry.
We have a lot of private datathat is potentially exposed and
(17:30):
certainly, you know, I think, wehave a very expensive, very
high deductible cyber liabilitypolicy.
But you know, certainly Godforbid, knock on wood we have an
issue, you know.
I'm hoping that that helpsmitigate some of that a bit.
But what are you seeing interms of, you know, cyber
mistakes and people doing andnot doing it?
Derek Stevenson (17:50):
Yeah, so you know a couple of the big things
right now is there's still a lotof pushback.
At this point, when I'm goingto meet with a client, it
doesn't matter what they'redoing, I am presenting cyber.
I want you to at least knowabout it, know what your risks
are, know what your price is tocover those gaps.
Then you make the decisionright.
I'll help you along the way,but it's your decision.
(18:11):
Right, I'll help you along theway, but it's your decision.
I'm still seeing a ton ofpushback, and one of the biggest
factors that we see is peoplehave a lot of faith in their
vendors.
Whether that be you know theircard processing company.
Whether it be you know whateverthey're using their expense
software invoicing, whatever youare sending is probably not as
(18:34):
safe as you think.
It is Sure, and I have a hardtime thinking if we have a major
leak, a breach of data from oneof these big time processing
companies.
Yes, they have insurance.
It is not enough to covermillions of people.
Yeah, they're coming out.
There are plenty of ambulancechases out there coming after
everyone Exactly, and when thatpool dries up, what are you left
(18:55):
with?
It's a scary, scary thought.
Chris Cluff (19:06):
Yeah, and I think you know, not even like you said
you know the fishing and thevishing and all that kind of
crazy stuff that you know wedeal with every day.
Quite frankly, you know, and Ithink it's really important to
make sure that we're you know,you're covering for all areas of
possibility.
And let me tell you, folks, thescammers are getting better,
right, yeah, yes, and they aretaking.
(19:30):
You know the firewalls aregetting better, you know the
technology is getting better,but we are the weak point Right,
definitely the person answeringthe phone, the person checking
their email.
We are the weak point Right andthat has happened too many
times to our clients,unfortunately.
Derek Stevenson (19:50):
I've also found , chris, that you know a lot of
times the things people havetold me in the past about how
they are safe.
You know what they have broughtin for firewalls, for example.
You know, and they think that'scovering them.
That is now the bare minimum topurchase cyber insurance.
One of the big things isinvoice manipulation, right?
So, chris, you send me aninvoice to pay for studio time
for podcasting.
You leave for the end of theday and a hacker has stole your
email.
Well then, the hacker emailsand says Derek, I'm sorry, but
(20:13):
these are the actual numbers.
I want you to put it in.
I forgot.
We just changed our bank lastweek.
Seems mild to me.
I go ahead and make thatpayment while it's gone and in
you know units of Bitcoin beforewe know it.
Right, it's a really scary thing, and the only way that carriers
are offering invoicemanipulation insurance coverage
is with multi-factorauthentication.
(20:33):
So that's something where, acouple of years ago, people said
I'm fine, all my remote usersare using MFA multi-factor
authentication.
So I know we're not going to be.
You know nobody's going to geton.
Well, now you can't even getthe coverage unless you have it.
Well, now, you can't even getthe coverage unless you have it.
Chris Cluff (20:48):
Oh, I mean our world, everything you do.
I need a text code or anauthentication code or, you know
, a face ID or something which,quite frankly, has become quite
a pain in the ass In someregards.
But it's absolutely necessaryto make sure that we have that
because, like I said, these guysare out there scamming away,
they're trying to find the weaklink, they're trying to find a
(21:09):
way in, and you know certainly Iknow we've had to go through
certain assessments and auditsto prove our you know
responsibility in terms of thateducation and requirements that
we have.
We just went through oneyesterday from our bank that our
bank said hey, you move moneyaround, you need to have this
audit every year to make surethat you're following the rules,
you're doing the right things.
And actually I haven't thoughtabout this, but I probably
(21:29):
should provide that to theinsurance underwriter to say,
hey, we are following the rulesright, yep, so that would be a
good one too.
But what other types ofassessments and things like that
are you seeing?
Derek Stevenson (21:38):
So I would say at this point, everybody should
be considering a cyber quote,and there's some really good
companies out there that areproviding a cyber risk
assessment.
I love it because I am not anIT guy, right.
I just don't know a lot of thestuff that comes out on this
assessment.
I know the insurance aspect ofit, but I don't know.
You know your site, host andmigration and certificates and
(22:01):
things like this, so you'regetting a risk assessment just
by getting a quote.
I'll turn it over to employersso they can see exactly where
their vulnerabilities are.
You can share it with your ITfolks.
If you decide at that point thatyou don't need it, I'm fine
with that too, but let's atleast go through that exercise
and make sure, because the lastthing I want ultimately as an
(22:22):
insurance agent, what would bethe worst feeling in the world
is hey, I'm claiming this, ohwait, I don't have coverage.
Well, why not?
And I don't want them to sufferfrom that claim.
But if you can, at least on myend, you know CYA cover your own
butt.
If you can, at least do thatand show them I did, I did try,
we went through this and youopted not to.
(22:43):
Let's be simple, a littlebetter at night.
Chris Cluff (22:50):
Absolutely so.
We've talked about a lot ofpitfalls.
We've talked about theexclusions.
We've talked about differentcontract issues, websites,
online things, cyber.
You know, is there any onetakeaway that you think you know
?
When you're talking to a client, pay attention to this, Any one
of those, or anything else.
Derek Stevenson (23:01):
Yeah, I think the biggest tip I would give is
kind of going back to theexclusions.
The number one thing you can doin your insurance policy is get
a digital copy.
Push control F when you open it.
That allows you to find a wordwithin a document type an
exclusion.
Sit down and grab a beer andsee what it says, because it's a
scary path.
Chris Cluff (23:23):
You really need to advocate for yourself and that's
the best way to do it Of course, and I tell clients all the
time yes, you have these greatadvisors, we have great
insurance agents, we have greatattorneys and accountants and so
forth, but you have to takeaction in your own business as
well, and you have to takeresponsibility for what you're
buying and what you're doing andhow you're operating.
(23:46):
And and it's a lot right Uh,that's getting.
I feel like life is gettingmore and more complicated every
day, yep, and certainly this isone of those things.
Absolutely Awesome.
Well, derek, thank you so much.
Derek from Varney Insurance.
How do people find you Is there?
Derek Stevenson (23:59):
Best way to find me would definitely be on
LinkedIn.
I'm sharing a lot of goodcontent info on there that
people can get.
Chris Cluff (24:05):
Other than that.
Look, derek Stevenson LinkedInVarney insurance.
That'd be great, absolutely,and if you can find them on
Instagram, let them know.
Yeah, good luck, send them a DM, well, good, well, thanks again
, and be sure to like, follow,share, subscribe, rate, review,
uh, everywhere you get yourpodcasts or subscribe from
everywhere.
Again, any questions for us?
For Derek, if you can't getahold of me, can't find him on
(24:26):
Instagram, feel free to email us.
We're at podcast atpapertrailscom and we'll be
happy to get you in touch.
So thanks, so much everyone.
We'll see you again next week,thanks for listening to this
week's episode of a smallbusiness, big world.
This podcast is a production ofPapertrails.
We are a payroll and HR companybased in Kennebunk, maine, and
we follow us at at paper trailspayroll across all social media
(24:49):
platforms and check us out atpaper trailscom for more
information.
As a reminder, the views,opinions and thoughts expressed
by the hosts and guests alone.
The material presented in thispodcast is for general
information purposes only andshould not be considered legal
or financial advice.
By inviting this guest to ourpodcast, paper trails does not
imply endorsement of oropposition to any specific
individual organization, productor service.
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