November 26, 2024 • 26 mins
Unlock the secrets of effective customer relationship management with insights from Jason Atwood of Arkus. You'll discover how CRMs have transformed from simple databases into powerful tools essential for tracking interactions, managing leads, and boosting sales for both B2B and B2C businesses. In this episode of Small Business Big World, Jason breaks down the evolution of CRM systems and their crucial role in providing actionable insights, such as lead scoring and origin tracking, to enhance communication strategies and propel prospects through your sales pipeline.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Small Business Big World, our weekly
podcast prepared by the team atPaper Trails.
Owning and running a smallbusiness is hard.
Each week, we'll dive into thechallenges, headaches, trends,
fun and excitement of running asmall business.
After all, small businesses arethe heartbeat of America and
our team is here to keep thembeating.
Welcome to Small Business BigWorld, our weekly podcast, where
(00:22):
we talk about all things smallbusiness.
Today, my guest, jason Atwoodwith Arcus.
This is a Salesforce consultingfirm and we're going to talk
about CRMs, or CustomerRelationship Management Systems
in small business.
So thanks for joining me, jason.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
My pleasure.
It's been a while, I know so.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Jason and I worked together in a previous life of
mine and he reached out to meand said I want to be a guest.
So here he is.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
You're in a new life.
I'm in the same life.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You're in the same.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I haven't gone many years.
You've gone somewhere else.
So it's great to catch up withyou, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Absolutely so before we get going, obviously, don't
forget like, follow, share ratereview, subscribe on all of our
platforms, all the podcastplatforms.
We're out there.
We're on all the social mediaplatforms at Small Business Big
World.
And if you ever have anyquestions for us or any of our
guests, certainly email us atpodcast at vapor trails dot com.
I almost forgot that email, butthat's the one.
(01:16):
So, jason, talk to us aboutCRM's customer relationship
management systems.
What are they and who uses them, and why do we need to use them
?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Sure, I mean, I guess I would say everybody should
use them, everybody has them.
So CRM, as we say, customerrelationship management or, if
you're in the nonprofit space,constituent relationship
management, we can change the Caround a lot.
It's just the concept of reallystarting to track all of the
people you deal with, whetherthey're coming in as new to you,
(01:46):
which which is what we callleads, or whether they're your
clients or or whether they'reyour accounts sort of the
businesses you do business with.
So whether you're b2b or b2c,and then all the way through
that, that life cycle, all theway up to things like, you know,
tracking your, your sales, yourinvoices.
It can go farther and fartherand farther.
(02:07):
But think of it as a great wayto track all the things that are
going on in your business.
We start with the customer sideof things.
But if you think about wherethe customer is and this is
where you know I'll start alittle bit of Salesforce
Kool-Aid you know the customeris in the center of everything.
So everything kind of spokesoff of that.
So whether it's, you know,sales or marketing or invoicing
(02:29):
or whatever, they all spark offthe middle of this customer.
So customer relationshipmanagement is the beginnings of
all of that and really just coreto pretty much everything you
do.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So the CRMs of today are kind of the new.
You know ERPs of yesterday,right, they can be your core
system in a lot of functions,right?
I mean, you talked aboutservice, you talked about sales.
You know, if you go down thatsales, you know funnel I guess
not to use that word but whatare folks kind of using that
from a sales and marketingperspective?
What are they using their CRMsfor, kind of in that world as
(03:06):
per sales and marketing?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, so in the sales and marketing world, you know
it starts at what you weretalking about, sort of the
funnel, right?
So really, the first part is onthe marketing side is where are
these customers coming in from,right?
When are these leads coming infrom?
At that point, you're reallytracking all the endpoints,
right.
Are they coming in throughemail?
Are they coming in throughsocial?
Are they coming in through yourwebsite?
(03:30):
Are they coming in throughnowadays it could be even SMS or
is it events?
So it's really tracking allthose kind of inputs into your
system.
At that point, you're tracking alot of the value around them,
right.
So a lot of the systems now themarketings will do scoring and
algorithms to say, well, thisperson has this title and they
(03:52):
have this, this thing, and theyfill out this form.
Therefore, their their value,more.
You're also, at that point,tracking their activity levels.
Where did they go?
What did they see?
Did they click on this?
Did they download this, right?
So giving your, in theory, anactual practice, giving your
sales staff or whoever's goingto pick up after that, giving
(04:13):
them more to go on, more to talkto this new prospect, this new
lead, and you're really thenbringing them in.
You're sort of making contactwith them and saying, okay, hey,
thanks for attending this eventor tweeting at me or filling
out this form.
You know how can we worktogether.
And you're sort of goingthrough that sales pipeline.
(04:35):
So at the beginnings it's a lotabout activity, it's a lot
about sourcing and it's aboutand really scoring, because you
want to know, like, if I'm dealtwith a thousand leads, which
ones are the ones that arevaluable versus which ones
they're asking because they wantto sell me something.
So that's where, that's wherethe marketing and the beginning
(04:55):
of it happen.
And beyond that, you're gettinginto personal communication
although we could talk about the, the rise of ai and where
that's going to go.
But you're getting into sort ofthe valuation of who they are,
you're having conversations withthem, you're, you know, maybe
going back and forth, you'retalking about sort of moving
them along the chain of thepipeline and eventually you're
(05:20):
thinking about converting them.
Right, you're coming up withyour system and you're
converting those people overinto what we would then think of
as opportunity pipeline, right.
So you're forecasting, you'regiving them a value, you're
giving them a date and you'retracking them on a bigger, more
holistic way.
And then that goes into yoursales forecasting.
And you're looking at yoursales forecasting, you're going
I've got this many deals thesestages, these times, at these
(05:48):
many deals these stages, thesetimes, and really going to the
process of getting them to thatpoint before you then turn them
into a client.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, so we talk in our business about pipeline, we
talk about leads, we do allthose things.
But what about?
Sometimes I challenge ourclients to think about the sales
and marketing pipeline, kind oflike we do.
But they might be in a retailworld or a restaurant or those
types of situations and I thinkyou know the traditional CRMs
that we use.
Might not be you know exactlythe same for them, but you know
(06:17):
I encourage folks.
Hey, are you using OpenTable,right?
Opentable has a lot of thesesame features built in, right,
and you can use those tools tonurture those.
And you know, if you're usingthe big retail platform is
escaping Shopify?
There we go.
You're using Shopify Same thing, right?
I mean, those clients arecoming in.
If they're making a purchase,track those, use that data and
(06:40):
keep track of those touch points, because all those types of
systems do a lot of the samething, but they're more industry
specific and sometimes it takesuntil a sale happens.
But then you can nurture thatclient forever, that customer
forever, and that's the thingthat you know you got to think
about from a marketingperspective too.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And that's really where it comes down to sort of
what we started talking about aunified profile, right?
So you're going to have lots ofdifferent systems.
You might have retail systems,you might have the website, you
might have your internal systemsand you do start tracking them
when you don't know who you areyet.
Right, you're bouncing aroundmy website.
You maybe go here, you might dohere, but it's been at that
(07:18):
point that you give me yourinformation first name, last
name, email address that I'm,boom, I'm tying it now back to
your activity.
So I say, oh well, this personI didn't know who it was, but
now I know that Chris Clough hasbeen bouncing around my website
(07:40):
forever.
Now they just got it.
Now I got a shopping cart, nowI have a purchase, now I have a
reservation, and then bringingthem into in a real marketing
sense, bringing them into a, youknow, sort of a nurturing world
, putting them through a journey.
You'll see that a lot of time.
You know you go to a place.
A friend of mine loves to dothis.
He goes to a place, puts to aplace.
(08:06):
A friend of mine loves to dothis.
He goes to a place, puts abunch of stuff in his shopping
cart and then he leaves itintentionally because he knows
that the backend systems willthen send him a coupon or hey,
were you abandoned.
Or if you're signed up for somesort of restaurant or open
table, you're going to get anotification from them hey, we
saw you like blah, blah, blah,so maybe you want to come back.
So all that revolves around thehuman being, right, it revolves
around the person that you'retalking to, and it's about
(08:26):
whether you know who they are,to start in a traditional CRM
sense, or do you?
Or do you identify afterwards,after you've been tracking them?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Absolutely.
And I think you know one of thecool things my sales team gets
all excited when we get thatform submission and they go in
and they say, gosh, this personattended our webinar two months
ago and they downloaded thisguide and they looked at that
and you know if they've been toall these pages over the last
three months.
Well, that makes the saleprocess a heck of a lot easier
because they already know somuch about you and you know
(08:54):
you're giving them theinformation, the value, before
they've reached out and that thesale becomes super easy at that
point.
Uh, you know to go through that, so, and you kind of know a
little bit about what they'relooking for, if they've been,
you know, newling around.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
So you have a better conversation, right, you can
have a better conversation thanjust a very cold lead.
You know we consider those warmleads, um, and where you're
coming to the conversation with,with trying not to get spooky
or creepy like you don't want tosay, hey, I saw you the other
day do this, this and this.
You know we can see that youhad interest in this product.
(09:28):
We can see your interest inthis service.
How else can we help you?
And it definitely depends ifyou're, you know, b2b or B2C.
But, yeah, having that informedinformation gives the
salesperson the ability to sellbetter.
Right, they have just moreinformation going in.
And it's really about choicesas well.
If you're a salesperson, you'relooking at your day of a lot of
choices and prioritization ofwhat you're going to deal with.
(09:50):
And if you're going to look ata bunch of leads, I have these
five that are cold and I havethese three that I see that
they've attended events.
I'm going to go after thosefirst and give them my attention
before we move on to the otherones.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, so once you close that sale right, you close
the deal, you sell them aproduct or a service or whatever
it's going to be, you know.
Then you, they become thatclient, right?
What is the?
What does the CRM help you dofor servicing the client once
they become that client, andmanaging that?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, so that's sort of the great part, right.
So it is that you do want tobring them in, but once they are
, then they are the client, theyare the customer, they are the
constituent and then you cansort of start to put all the
other data around them.
Then you have purchase history,then you have longevity, then
you have who are the otherpeople in the organizations as
you grow, then you have otheractivities you have with them.
(10:39):
Then you can then service them.
So when you know most placesthere's some sort of level of
service, whether it's returningsomething or, you know, in our
business it's like it's a muchbigger relationship.
But you can start to track thatbigger and bigger relationship
and by having that relationship,by tracking it, you can service
your client better and makethem happier.
(11:00):
Nothing the worst thing in theworld is when someone calls up
and you know this happens a lotin the bigger and bigger
companies that have disparatesystems is they call up or they
need help, or they send an email, or they go on Zen or they, you
know, put in a case and theperson's like well, I didn't see
that you did that thing.
We all assume as consumers,although wrongly, that behind
(11:22):
the scenes.
Everything's connected andeverybody can see everything.
And it's this one glorioussystem, because you know it's
what we're used to.
But that's not the case.
Like, there's usually fivedifferent systems and the order
tracking system and thereservation system and this
system, and so that's where allthat like they can't service you
well and that's where a goodcrm will say look, we have them
all connected and when you go inand you look at your customer,
(11:44):
you can see all the differentpieces around them and not just
you know these different silosbreaking on those silos.
So in our world I you know foryour record, in our contact, in
our crm, I saw every project youwere attached to, every
opportunity you were attached toyou.
You know your title, where youwent before and then after, when
you.
You know when we moved you offto, when we knew that you left
(12:06):
the firm.
So I have a whole history ofall the communications I had
with you, things I sent to you,and I can go back and look at.
You know a lot of data aroundaround where you were and what
you did.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I would say that's one of our challenges right now.
Is is kind of working in thosedisparate systems.
Right, our quote unquote coresystem, our payroll system,
doesn't talk to our CRM rightnow and we're actually working
with a vendor to try to resolvethat.
They're building an API for usand well, not just for us but
for all the users of this and,in fairness, we're a HubSpot
(12:42):
user these days.
So you know, not to make youcry, I know you're the
Salesforce guy, but Right,that's all right, but that's
been a really good tool for us.
So let's talk about some ofthose tools.
So we use HubSpot.
That's a, you know, certainlyone of the systems out there.
You're the Salesforce guy.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Talk to me about.
You know Salesforce and whatthat looks like and how it works
and all that stuff.
Sure, I think Salesforce one ofmany CRMs.
You can't throw a stake withouthitting a CRM.
Salesforce is, at this point,probably one of the best-known,
most-adapted and highestGardner-ranked CRMs on the
planet.
I think it probably gets youknow it's not as well-known for
(13:17):
its very specific points.
It's known kind of asenterprise, but they actually
have some really nice smallbusiness offerings, even some
that you, you know, havehappened since you've, you know,
gone off into the smallbusiness world.
Really, I think the big play forSalesforce is that it is a
platform.
Above all, it's a platform andso you can build out your
(13:38):
processes inside of it.
You can customize it very well.
I mean, when we did yourimplementation back at the
company that you were at I don'tknow if you say these things or
not like we customize theinterface for you we built it
out to track your data specificto your company, and I think
that's where some of the powercomes in for us.
Personally, my Salesforce orgstarted with three little
(14:01):
licenses, you know, and as wegrew we then put on more
licenses and built up more.
I now it's funny.
I look at my Salesforceinstance and it is a beast.
It's got, I mean, seven oreight or 10 applications from
resource tracking to sales, tomarketing, to service, to goal
tracking.
We've employee goal trackingbuilt inside of our Salesforce.
(14:22):
So you're like well, what doesthat have to do with CRM?
Well, not much, but it's aplatform.
So we built out goal trackingand our whole time management
system, our invoicing system,all based in Salesforce.
So you know, for those who arestarting off going, well, why
would I pick this one or not Oneof the things you can start to
look at for your pricing?
And I know it's in your smallbusiness, I know I was there.
(14:44):
You look at these big numbers,you're like oh, I don't want to
pay XX and X per month for that.
Part of the reason that I likeSalesforce and still work with
them is that you can get yourROI out of it by using it for
more and more.
The more you use it for, thebetter.
So I don't have to have allthese disparate systems that I'm
paying $9.99 for, $13.99, $8.99, right, if you have one system
(15:07):
that can do everything fromproject management to goal
tracking, to sales and service,to forecasting.
It's like, oh, this is a bigsystem and all interconnected,
which is really nice.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
So that's a real great point.
So I mean, we're still arelatively small business and
I'm very fortunate to have aresource internally.
That's kind of my HubSpot guy,right, john, my marketing guy.
He kind of owns HubSpot for us.
He's done really good thingsfor us.
He's reached out to vendors oryou know the guy on Fiverr, if
we need to.
If you can't figure out how to,you know, do things, you know
what do you?
You know I know you guys workwith a little bit larger clients
(15:41):
generally, but if you're asmall business getting started,
how do you recommend peoplereally get in there and
configure it for their business?
Because that's where you reallystart to.
I think a lot of smallbusinesses in particular get in
there and they say I don't knowhow to use this tool, it's got
so much stuff and it doesn'twork for me.
Well, you have to work it.
You know, just like anything inyour business, you have to work
it to make it work for you.
And I mean that's my big thing.
(16:02):
What do you guys tell peoplewhen you're going into
engagements?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, you know, I guess what I would told them 10
years ago versus what I tellpeople now, um, I I am, I've
always been a Salesforce person,so, like for me, I did the work
, I could go and configure itmyself.
But, that being said, like I'mnot some massive computer
programmer, you know, alwaysself-taught you are going to
(16:27):
need some help.
Right Again, a lot of thesethings now are better because
they have starter packs and theyhave these things that install
that kind of get you set up.
They'll even ask you likewizards.
They'll even ask you likewizards.
They'll say well, what kind ofbusiness are you?
Let's set you up.
I don't know if you useQuickBooks Like they do the same
thing we used to go intoQuickBooks now, which is they
didn't do back when I started.
They would say what are you?
And they kind of like ask you abunch of questions, so then
(17:04):
they can set you up to be.
You know, at least get youstarted with what you should be
doing.
People is um, don't always tryto customize too much away from
away from the, the basics,because I think people get well,
I track this and this likeevery, every, uh customer, or
sorry, every company wants to bethis little snowflake.
It's like actually, no, you,you're a restaurant.
You do the same stuff that therestaurant down the street does.
You know I actually make thejoke about banks.
When you're starting a bank,nobody goes out and says you
know what?
I'm going to write my ownbanking software?
(17:26):
I'm going to start from scratch.
I think I'm going to do.
You know, transactions aregoing to happen and no, you go,
you pick one of the big threeand you move in and you just
start to run your bank and youworry about the other things.
So, and you move in and youjust start to run your bank and
you worry about the other things.
So I think the advice I'd giveyou is like start with the
software.
It is, and if a little bit youhave to change some of your
processes to fit within thesoftware, that's okay, because
(17:47):
actually you're starting Likenow's the time to not reinvent
the wheel.
If you get too customized, ifyou try to build these processes
around what you're doing as asmall business and they're so
unique they're not going to fitin any system right, every
system's kind of built for themasses.
So I would say like that's notwhat you're going to give you,
as a small business, the the legup down the street, like maybe
(18:09):
marketing will, whatever, buthow you run your crm generally
is not going to give you the youknow the advantage.
No one says, oh I, I signedwith Arcus cause I've heard
their, their CRM was reallyreally top notch and I don't
really care.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Um so I tell our clients keep it simple.
That's what I tell our clientsis.
You know, we, we look at thesame thing, you know, in terms
of vacation tracking, andeveryone wants to have this
weird policy that's superspecific cause they're trying to
manage through their policy.
It's the same thing with, youknow, crms.
It's guess what?
The more complicated you makeit, the more headaches you have.
And you know that's in mostparts of business, including CRM
(18:45):
and everything else.
So I think that's good adviceto kind of use what they've got.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
So what are the big values that people see from
using?
You know CRMs, like reporting.
You know intelligence.
I mean, where's everyonegetting their ROI on their
really expensive licensing forthese CRM?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
right, yeah, it's true.
Um, well, I think I think atthe beginning it is how you can?
You know you can scale as acompany, right?
I?
One things that I look backI've gone from three people to
75 people, so I'm still a smallbusiness is that.
One of the things that hasscaled brilliantly is our CRM.
(19:29):
It's never been an issue ofdata, never been an issue of
licenses, never had ascalability issue with it.
So I think one of the thingsyou're thinking about as a small
business is you don't alwayswant to be a small business,
right?
So sometimes you know, if youhave the plans to be a bigger
business, sometimes you shoulduse the bigger business tools
because you're going to need tomove them anyway.
And, by the way, it's expensiveto move, it's cheap to stay.
(19:53):
So, like, even if you're likeI'm going to have my three
licenses in there X a month,that feels like a lot, yeah, but
in a year or two years or threeyears, when you're double or
triple the size and that littletool that you pick, that little,
you know it doesn't scale withyou anymore.
You know, now you have to move,you have to pick another one
and that disrupts your business.
Right.
Again, what I would say tosmall business owners now or I
(20:13):
guess I am is is your businessis not your CRM Like.
Your CRM supports your business, but don't think that that is
your business.
You need to be doing the otherthings, and so don't let it be
distracting For other thingsthat I think are great.
Now I thought what too?
You brought up reporting andanalytics.
I mean, I'm a data-driven guy.
I run my company on data and Ihave access to all of it.
(20:35):
Right, I can go in, I rundashboards, I have Tableau Pulse
.
I get a once a week AI driven.
You know, here's what'shappening at your company thing
that points out trends and stufflike that.
I look at dashboards andreports all the time to see
what's going on, but it's, butbecause I use a CRM, that's,
that's all.
The data is there and I have tothink about that.
(20:56):
Oh well, some data is over here, some data is over that.
So when you're making thosedecisions, too, about you know
how many systems you have whenyou, when you want to do
reporting.
The more systems you have, theless ability you will have to
report on that data.
And then, lastly, I you knowpicking the right platform.
I think you should befuture-proofing yourself, right.
We are in the day of AI.
We're in the day of AI.
(21:40):
We're in the day of assistanceand agents and all the things
tools built within.
So now you know AI tool shouldbe built.
Ai should be built intoeverything you're doing.
It should be built into yourCRM, built in your service,
built in your marketing.
It's built into our reportingand it's great.
So allows us to do stuff likelike analyze leads and give and
predict things, predict things.
It predicts opportunity closingrates or lead or lead ratings
(22:04):
and I can analyze reports.
I'm looking at with AI, as wellas all the generative stuff
like communication things withyour people, being able to
generate stuff to talk to themin a more natural way.
Having all that data availableto you, too, makes the natural
way better.
So, like the it's not just the.
I hope this email finds youwell right.
It's the.
(22:25):
Hey, I'm communicating with youand I have the whole sum of
your relationship in my hand.
As, as the artificialintelligence, it makes me sound
better.
So those are the things I wouldconsider and think about to get
.
The last thing about ROI, again,as you're picking a platform,
is make sure that you can use itfor the multiple things it can
(22:45):
do.
One-off, one-point solutionsget very expensive.
If you get something that cando three or four things, then
obviously those different silosbecome better and better.
So I'm not having to spend awhole bunch of other money for
this other service with otherservice.
So like picking a, a crm thatcould handle some of your growth
(23:06):
again.
I think the service andmarketing are two examples.
I might get a crm for now, butI know that it has a marketing
arm I can tie in.
I know it has a service arm.
I can pull in and start usingum because those things be.
That becomes where you reallyget your ROI.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect.
So one last thing if you had tothink about the one feature in
a CRM that you think any smallbusiness owner would need, what
do you think it is?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
It's probably the communication tools, that
ability to take in andcommunicate with people as they
come to your doorstep and theyknock on your door, and to be
able to track that communication, because the hardest thing to
do look, I always say if youhave two customers, you don't
need a CRM, you don't need a CRM, memorize them.
(23:55):
I could memorize two customersIf it was just you.
I would memorize your name, I'dmemorize your favorite color
and where you live and be noproblem.
But as you scale right, one ofthe problems of scale is having
that you can get to all thatdata.
You're not going to be able tomemorize 100, 200, 300 customers
, 400 contacts, 3000 leads, 1700opportunities right, you're not
(24:19):
right, you're not.
So the ability to be able to, toget that data and be able to
sort it and get to the mostimportant parts of the data and
be able to follow up with theright people at the right time,
that's crucial for any customer,right, any size, because you're
going to scale the smallbusiness.
You're not just going to havetwo, three, four or five clients
, two, three, you want to have amassive, massive book
eventually.
Um, and I I think my advicewould be you're never too small
(24:44):
in that CRM.
You know, I went back I whooped, we started ours I mean, I was
joking before we got it on butlike I think we had our CRM set
up like it was like LLC you know, or sorry, or you know
registration, idea, name, crmand we were up and running
(25:06):
because we just knew it was socore and never having to go back
, never having to rethink it, wenever had to play with
spreadsheets and any of that.
We were just always in the CRMfrom get-go.
So you're never too small.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
That's awesome.
So folks want to get in touchwith you, Talk to us about Arcus
.
How do they get in touch withyou?
Socials, all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Sure, so get in touch with me.
I'm Jason Atwood.
You can email me, jasonatwood,at arcasynccom.
You can hit our website atarcasynccom.
We have a blog going back 15years.
There's over 700 articles on itabout CRM, Salesforce and doing
business.
There's all sorts of greatstuff on there, All sorts of fun
(25:43):
topics.
And if you want to hit me up onLinkedIn, it's you know,
LinkedIn slash Jason M Atwood.
I'm also on X same thing, JasonM Atwood.
That's where I hang out.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
No other places?
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much, jason.
Really appreciate you joiningus today.
And don't forget to ourlisteners like Jason really
appreciate you joining us today.
And don't forget to ourlisteners like follow, share
rate, review, subscribe.
We are everywhere.
You get your podcasts Certainly.
If you have any questions forme and you didn't get Jason's
contact information, it's justpodcast at papertrailscom and we
will get you in touch.
Thanks so much, no-transcript.
(26:25):
If you found this podcasthelpful, don't forget to follow
us at at Paper Trails Payrollacross all social media
platforms and check us out atpapertrailscom for more
information.
As a reminder, the views,opinions and thoughts expressed
are the hosts and guests alone.
The is for general informationpurposes only and should not be
considered legal or financialadvice.
By inviting this guest to ourpodcast, paper Girls does not
imply endorsement of oropposition to any specific
(26:45):
individual organization, productor service.
This is Small Business Big World, our weekly
podcast prepared by the team atPaper Trails.
Owning and running a smallbusiness is hard.
Each week, we'll dive into thechallenges, headaches, trends,
fun and excitement of running asmall business.
After all, small businesses arethe heartbeat of America and
our team is here to keep thembeating.
Welcome to Small Business BigWorld, our weekly podcast, where
(00:22):
we talk about all things smallbusiness.
Today, my guest, jason Atwoodwith Arcus.
This is a Salesforce consultingfirm and we're going to talk
about CRMs, or CustomerRelationship Management Systems
in small business.
So thanks for joining me, jason.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
My pleasure.
It's been a while, I know so.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Jason and I worked together in a previous life of
mine and he reached out to meand said I want to be a guest.
So here he is.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
You're in a new life.
I'm in the same life.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You're in the same.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I haven't gone many years.
You've gone somewhere else.
So it's great to catch up withyou, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Absolutely so before we get going, obviously, don't
forget like, follow, share ratereview, subscribe on all of our
platforms, all the podcastplatforms.
We're out there.
We're on all the social mediaplatforms at Small Business Big
World.
And if you ever have anyquestions for us or any of our
guests, certainly email us atpodcast at vapor trails dot com.
I almost forgot that email, butthat's the one.
(01:16):
So, jason, talk to us aboutCRM's customer relationship
management systems.
What are they and who uses them, and why do we need to use them
?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Sure, I mean, I guess I would say everybody should
use them, everybody has them.
So CRM, as we say, customerrelationship management or, if
you're in the nonprofit space,constituent relationship
management, we can change the Caround a lot.
It's just the concept of reallystarting to track all of the
people you deal with, whetherthey're coming in as new to you,
(01:46):
which which is what we callleads, or whether they're your
clients or or whether they'reyour accounts sort of the
businesses you do business with.
So whether you're b2b or b2c,and then all the way through
that, that life cycle, all theway up to things like, you know,
tracking your, your sales, yourinvoices.
It can go farther and fartherand farther.
(02:07):
But think of it as a great wayto track all the things that are
going on in your business.
We start with the customer sideof things.
But if you think about wherethe customer is and this is
where you know I'll start alittle bit of Salesforce
Kool-Aid you know the customeris in the center of everything.
So everything kind of spokesoff of that.
So whether it's, you know,sales or marketing or invoicing
(02:29):
or whatever, they all spark offthe middle of this customer.
So customer relationshipmanagement is the beginnings of
all of that and really just coreto pretty much everything you
do.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So the CRMs of today are kind of the new.
You know ERPs of yesterday,right, they can be your core
system in a lot of functions,right?
I mean, you talked aboutservice, you talked about sales.
You know, if you go down thatsales, you know funnel I guess
not to use that word but whatare folks kind of using that
from a sales and marketingperspective?
What are they using their CRMsfor, kind of in that world as
(03:06):
per sales and marketing?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, so in the sales and marketing world, you know
it starts at what you weretalking about, sort of the
funnel, right?
So really, the first part is onthe marketing side is where are
these customers coming in from,right?
When are these leads coming infrom?
At that point, you're reallytracking all the endpoints,
right.
Are they coming in throughemail?
Are they coming in throughsocial?
Are they coming in through yourwebsite?
(03:30):
Are they coming in throughnowadays it could be even SMS or
is it events?
So it's really tracking allthose kind of inputs into your
system.
At that point, you're tracking alot of the value around them,
right.
So a lot of the systems now themarketings will do scoring and
algorithms to say, well, thisperson has this title and they
(03:52):
have this, this thing, and theyfill out this form.
Therefore, their their value,more.
You're also, at that point,tracking their activity levels.
Where did they go?
What did they see?
Did they click on this?
Did they download this, right?
So giving your, in theory, anactual practice, giving your
sales staff or whoever's goingto pick up after that, giving
(04:13):
them more to go on, more to talkto this new prospect, this new
lead, and you're really thenbringing them in.
You're sort of making contactwith them and saying, okay, hey,
thanks for attending this eventor tweeting at me or filling
out this form.
You know how can we worktogether.
And you're sort of goingthrough that sales pipeline.
(04:35):
So at the beginnings it's a lotabout activity, it's a lot
about sourcing and it's aboutand really scoring, because you
want to know, like, if I'm dealtwith a thousand leads, which
ones are the ones that arevaluable versus which ones
they're asking because they wantto sell me something.
So that's where, that's wherethe marketing and the beginning
(04:55):
of it happen.
And beyond that, you're gettinginto personal communication
although we could talk about the, the rise of ai and where
that's going to go.
But you're getting into sort ofthe valuation of who they are,
you're having conversations withthem, you're, you know, maybe
going back and forth, you'retalking about sort of moving
them along the chain of thepipeline and eventually you're
(05:20):
thinking about converting them.
Right, you're coming up withyour system and you're
converting those people overinto what we would then think of
as opportunity pipeline, right.
So you're forecasting, you'regiving them a value, you're
giving them a date and you'retracking them on a bigger, more
holistic way.
And then that goes into yoursales forecasting.
And you're looking at yoursales forecasting, you're going
I've got this many deals thesestages, these times, at these
(05:48):
many deals these stages, thesetimes, and really going to the
process of getting them to thatpoint before you then turn them
into a client.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, so we talk in our business about pipeline, we
talk about leads, we do allthose things.
But what about?
Sometimes I challenge ourclients to think about the sales
and marketing pipeline, kind oflike we do.
But they might be in a retailworld or a restaurant or those
types of situations and I thinkyou know the traditional CRMs
that we use.
Might not be you know exactlythe same for them, but you know
(06:17):
I encourage folks.
Hey, are you using OpenTable,right?
Opentable has a lot of thesesame features built in, right,
and you can use those tools tonurture those.
And you know, if you're usingthe big retail platform is
escaping Shopify?
There we go.
You're using Shopify Same thing, right?
I mean, those clients arecoming in.
If they're making a purchase,track those, use that data and
(06:40):
keep track of those touch points, because all those types of
systems do a lot of the samething, but they're more industry
specific and sometimes it takesuntil a sale happens.
But then you can nurture thatclient forever, that customer
forever, and that's the thingthat you know you got to think
about from a marketingperspective too.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And that's really where it comes down to sort of
what we started talking about aunified profile, right?
So you're going to have lots ofdifferent systems.
You might have retail systems,you might have the website, you
might have your internal systemsand you do start tracking them
when you don't know who you areyet.
Right, you're bouncing aroundmy website.
You maybe go here, you might dohere, but it's been at that
(07:18):
point that you give me yourinformation first name, last
name, email address that I'm,boom, I'm tying it now back to
your activity.
So I say, oh well, this personI didn't know who it was, but
now I know that Chris Clough hasbeen bouncing around my website
(07:40):
forever.
Now they just got it.
Now I got a shopping cart, nowI have a purchase, now I have a
reservation, and then bringingthem into in a real marketing
sense, bringing them into a, youknow, sort of a nurturing world
, putting them through a journey.
You'll see that a lot of time.
You know you go to a place.
A friend of mine loves to dothis.
He goes to a place, puts to aplace.
(08:06):
A friend of mine loves to dothis.
He goes to a place, puts abunch of stuff in his shopping
cart and then he leaves itintentionally because he knows
that the backend systems willthen send him a coupon or hey,
were you abandoned.
Or if you're signed up for somesort of restaurant or open
table, you're going to get anotification from them hey, we
saw you like blah, blah, blah,so maybe you want to come back.
So all that revolves around thehuman being, right, it revolves
around the person that you'retalking to, and it's about
(08:26):
whether you know who they are,to start in a traditional CRM
sense, or do you?
Or do you identify afterwards,after you've been tracking them?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Absolutely.
And I think you know one of thecool things my sales team gets
all excited when we get thatform submission and they go in
and they say, gosh, this personattended our webinar two months
ago and they downloaded thisguide and they looked at that
and you know if they've been toall these pages over the last
three months.
Well, that makes the saleprocess a heck of a lot easier
because they already know somuch about you and you know
(08:54):
you're giving them theinformation, the value, before
they've reached out and that thesale becomes super easy at that
point.
Uh, you know to go through that, so, and you kind of know a
little bit about what they'relooking for, if they've been,
you know, newling around.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
So you have a better conversation, right, you can
have a better conversation thanjust a very cold lead.
You know we consider those warmleads, um, and where you're
coming to the conversation with,with trying not to get spooky
or creepy like you don't want tosay, hey, I saw you the other
day do this, this and this.
You know we can see that youhad interest in this product.
(09:28):
We can see your interest inthis service.
How else can we help you?
And it definitely depends ifyou're, you know, b2b or B2C.
But, yeah, having that informedinformation gives the
salesperson the ability to sellbetter.
Right, they have just moreinformation going in.
And it's really about choicesas well.
If you're a salesperson, you'relooking at your day of a lot of
choices and prioritization ofwhat you're going to deal with.
(09:50):
And if you're going to look ata bunch of leads, I have these
five that are cold and I havethese three that I see that
they've attended events.
I'm going to go after thosefirst and give them my attention
before we move on to the otherones.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, so once you close that sale right, you close
the deal, you sell them aproduct or a service or whatever
it's going to be, you know.
Then you, they become thatclient, right?
What is the?
What does the CRM help you dofor servicing the client once
they become that client, andmanaging that?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, so that's sort of the great part, right.
So it is that you do want tobring them in, but once they are
, then they are the client, theyare the customer, they are the
constituent and then you cansort of start to put all the
other data around them.
Then you have purchase history,then you have longevity, then
you have who are the otherpeople in the organizations as
you grow, then you have otheractivities you have with them.
(10:39):
Then you can then service them.
So when you know most placesthere's some sort of level of
service, whether it's returningsomething or, you know, in our
business it's like it's a muchbigger relationship.
But you can start to track thatbigger and bigger relationship
and by having that relationship,by tracking it, you can service
your client better and makethem happier.
(11:00):
Nothing the worst thing in theworld is when someone calls up
and you know this happens a lotin the bigger and bigger
companies that have disparatesystems is they call up or they
need help, or they send an email, or they go on Zen or they, you
know, put in a case and theperson's like well, I didn't see
that you did that thing.
We all assume as consumers,although wrongly, that behind
(11:22):
the scenes.
Everything's connected andeverybody can see everything.
And it's this one glorioussystem, because you know it's
what we're used to.
But that's not the case.
Like, there's usually fivedifferent systems and the order
tracking system and thereservation system and this
system, and so that's where allthat like they can't service you
well and that's where a goodcrm will say look, we have them
all connected and when you go inand you look at your customer,
(11:44):
you can see all the differentpieces around them and not just
you know these different silosbreaking on those silos.
So in our world I you know foryour record, in our contact, in
our crm, I saw every project youwere attached to, every
opportunity you were attached toyou.
You know your title, where youwent before and then after, when
you.
You know when we moved you offto, when we knew that you left
(12:06):
the firm.
So I have a whole history ofall the communications I had
with you, things I sent to you,and I can go back and look at.
You know a lot of data aroundaround where you were and what
you did.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
I would say that's one of our challenges right now.
Is is kind of working in thosedisparate systems.
Right, our quote unquote coresystem, our payroll system,
doesn't talk to our CRM rightnow and we're actually working
with a vendor to try to resolvethat.
They're building an API for usand well, not just for us but
for all the users of this and,in fairness, we're a HubSpot
(12:42):
user these days.
So you know, not to make youcry, I know you're the
Salesforce guy, but Right,that's all right, but that's
been a really good tool for us.
So let's talk about some ofthose tools.
So we use HubSpot.
That's a, you know, certainlyone of the systems out there.
You're the Salesforce guy.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Talk to me about.
You know Salesforce and whatthat looks like and how it works
and all that stuff.
Sure, I think Salesforce one ofmany CRMs.
You can't throw a stake withouthitting a CRM.
Salesforce is, at this point,probably one of the best-known,
most-adapted and highestGardner-ranked CRMs on the
planet.
I think it probably gets youknow it's not as well-known for
(13:17):
its very specific points.
It's known kind of asenterprise, but they actually
have some really nice smallbusiness offerings, even some
that you, you know, havehappened since you've, you know,
gone off into the smallbusiness world.
Really, I think the big play forSalesforce is that it is a
platform.
Above all, it's a platform andso you can build out your
(13:38):
processes inside of it.
You can customize it very well.
I mean, when we did yourimplementation back at the
company that you were at I don'tknow if you say these things or
not like we customize theinterface for you we built it
out to track your data specificto your company, and I think
that's where some of the powercomes in for us.
Personally, my Salesforce orgstarted with three little
(14:01):
licenses, you know, and as wegrew we then put on more
licenses and built up more.
I now it's funny.
I look at my Salesforceinstance and it is a beast.
It's got, I mean, seven oreight or 10 applications from
resource tracking to sales, tomarketing, to service, to goal
tracking.
We've employee goal trackingbuilt inside of our Salesforce.
(14:22):
So you're like well, what doesthat have to do with CRM?
Well, not much, but it's aplatform.
So we built out goal trackingand our whole time management
system, our invoicing system,all based in Salesforce.
So you know, for those who arestarting off going, well, why
would I pick this one or not Oneof the things you can start to
look at for your pricing?
And I know it's in your smallbusiness, I know I was there.
(14:44):
You look at these big numbers,you're like oh, I don't want to
pay XX and X per month for that.
Part of the reason that I likeSalesforce and still work with
them is that you can get yourROI out of it by using it for
more and more.
The more you use it for, thebetter.
So I don't have to have allthese disparate systems that I'm
paying $9.99 for, $13.99, $8.99, right, if you have one system
(15:07):
that can do everything fromproject management to goal
tracking, to sales and service,to forecasting.
It's like, oh, this is a bigsystem and all interconnected,
which is really nice.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
So that's a real great point.
So I mean, we're still arelatively small business and
I'm very fortunate to have aresource internally.
That's kind of my HubSpot guy,right, john, my marketing guy.
He kind of owns HubSpot for us.
He's done really good thingsfor us.
He's reached out to vendors oryou know the guy on Fiverr, if
we need to.
If you can't figure out how to,you know, do things, you know
what do you?
You know I know you guys workwith a little bit larger clients
(15:41):
generally, but if you're asmall business getting started,
how do you recommend peoplereally get in there and
configure it for their business?
Because that's where you reallystart to.
I think a lot of smallbusinesses in particular get in
there and they say I don't knowhow to use this tool, it's got
so much stuff and it doesn'twork for me.
Well, you have to work it.
You know, just like anything inyour business, you have to work
it to make it work for you.
And I mean that's my big thing.
(16:02):
What do you guys tell peoplewhen you're going into
engagements?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, you know, I guess what I would told them 10
years ago versus what I tellpeople now, um, I I am, I've
always been a Salesforce person,so, like for me, I did the work
, I could go and configure itmyself.
But, that being said, like I'mnot some massive computer
programmer, you know, alwaysself-taught you are going to
(16:27):
need some help.
Right Again, a lot of thesethings now are better because
they have starter packs and theyhave these things that install
that kind of get you set up.
They'll even ask you likewizards.
They'll even ask you likewizards.
They'll say well, what kind ofbusiness are you?
Let's set you up.
I don't know if you useQuickBooks Like they do the same
thing we used to go intoQuickBooks now, which is they
didn't do back when I started.
They would say what are you?
And they kind of like ask you abunch of questions, so then
(17:04):
they can set you up to be.
You know, at least get youstarted with what you should be
doing.
People is um, don't always tryto customize too much away from
away from the, the basics,because I think people get well,
I track this and this likeevery, every, uh customer, or
sorry, every company wants to bethis little snowflake.
It's like actually, no, you,you're a restaurant.
You do the same stuff that therestaurant down the street does.
You know I actually make thejoke about banks.
When you're starting a bank,nobody goes out and says you
know what?
I'm going to write my ownbanking software?
(17:26):
I'm going to start from scratch.
I think I'm going to do.
You know, transactions aregoing to happen and no, you go,
you pick one of the big threeand you move in and you just
start to run your bank and youworry about the other things.
So, and you move in and youjust start to run your bank and
you worry about the other things.
So I think the advice I'd giveyou is like start with the
software.
It is, and if a little bit youhave to change some of your
processes to fit within thesoftware, that's okay, because
(17:47):
actually you're starting Likenow's the time to not reinvent
the wheel.
If you get too customized, ifyou try to build these processes
around what you're doing as asmall business and they're so
unique they're not going to fitin any system right, every
system's kind of built for themasses.
So I would say like that's notwhat you're going to give you,
as a small business, the the legup down the street, like maybe
(18:09):
marketing will, whatever, buthow you run your crm generally
is not going to give you the youknow the advantage.
No one says, oh I, I signedwith Arcus cause I've heard
their, their CRM was reallyreally top notch and I don't
really care.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Um so I tell our clients keep it simple.
That's what I tell our clientsis.
You know, we, we look at thesame thing, you know, in terms
of vacation tracking, andeveryone wants to have this
weird policy that's superspecific cause they're trying to
manage through their policy.
It's the same thing with, youknow, crms.
It's guess what?
The more complicated you makeit, the more headaches you have.
And you know that's in mostparts of business, including CRM
(18:45):
and everything else.
So I think that's good adviceto kind of use what they've got.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
So what are the big values that people see from
using?
You know CRMs, like reporting.
You know intelligence.
I mean, where's everyonegetting their ROI on their
really expensive licensing forthese CRM?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
right, yeah, it's true.
Um, well, I think I think atthe beginning it is how you can?
You know you can scale as acompany, right?
I?
One things that I look backI've gone from three people to
75 people, so I'm still a smallbusiness is that.
One of the things that hasscaled brilliantly is our CRM.
(19:29):
It's never been an issue ofdata, never been an issue of
licenses, never had ascalability issue with it.
So I think one of the thingsyou're thinking about as a small
business is you don't alwayswant to be a small business,
right?
So sometimes you know, if youhave the plans to be a bigger
business, sometimes you shoulduse the bigger business tools
because you're going to need tomove them anyway.
And, by the way, it's expensiveto move, it's cheap to stay.
(19:53):
So, like, even if you're likeI'm going to have my three
licenses in there X a month,that feels like a lot, yeah, but
in a year or two years or threeyears, when you're double or
triple the size and that littletool that you pick, that little,
you know it doesn't scale withyou anymore.
You know, now you have to move,you have to pick another one
and that disrupts your business.
Right.
Again, what I would say tosmall business owners now or I
(20:13):
guess I am is is your businessis not your CRM Like.
Your CRM supports your business, but don't think that that is
your business.
You need to be doing the otherthings, and so don't let it be
distracting For other thingsthat I think are great.
Now I thought what too?
You brought up reporting andanalytics.
I mean, I'm a data-driven guy.
I run my company on data and Ihave access to all of it.
(20:35):
Right, I can go in, I rundashboards, I have Tableau Pulse
.
I get a once a week AI driven.
You know, here's what'shappening at your company thing
that points out trends and stufflike that.
I look at dashboards andreports all the time to see
what's going on, but it's, butbecause I use a CRM, that's,
that's all.
The data is there and I have tothink about that.
(20:56):
Oh well, some data is over here, some data is over that.
So when you're making thosedecisions, too, about you know
how many systems you have whenyou, when you want to do
reporting.
The more systems you have, theless ability you will have to
report on that data.
And then, lastly, I you knowpicking the right platform.
I think you should befuture-proofing yourself, right.
We are in the day of AI.
We're in the day of AI.
(21:40):
We're in the day of assistanceand agents and all the things
tools built within.
So now you know AI tool shouldbe built.
Ai should be built intoeverything you're doing.
It should be built into yourCRM, built in your service,
built in your marketing.
It's built into our reportingand it's great.
So allows us to do stuff likelike analyze leads and give and
predict things, predict things.
It predicts opportunity closingrates or lead or lead ratings
(22:04):
and I can analyze reports.
I'm looking at with AI, as wellas all the generative stuff
like communication things withyour people, being able to
generate stuff to talk to themin a more natural way.
Having all that data availableto you, too, makes the natural
way better.
So, like the it's not just the.
I hope this email finds youwell right.
It's the.
(22:25):
Hey, I'm communicating with youand I have the whole sum of
your relationship in my hand.
As, as the artificialintelligence, it makes me sound
better.
So those are the things I wouldconsider and think about to get
.
The last thing about ROI, again,as you're picking a platform,
is make sure that you can use itfor the multiple things it can
(22:45):
do.
One-off, one-point solutionsget very expensive.
If you get something that cando three or four things, then
obviously those different silosbecome better and better.
So I'm not having to spend awhole bunch of other money for
this other service with otherservice.
So like picking a, a crm thatcould handle some of your growth
(23:06):
again.
I think the service andmarketing are two examples.
I might get a crm for now, butI know that it has a marketing
arm I can tie in.
I know it has a service arm.
I can pull in and start usingum because those things be.
That becomes where you reallyget your ROI.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect.
So one last thing if you had tothink about the one feature in
a CRM that you think any smallbusiness owner would need, what
do you think it is?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
It's probably the communication tools, that
ability to take in andcommunicate with people as they
come to your doorstep and theyknock on your door, and to be
able to track that communication, because the hardest thing to
do look, I always say if youhave two customers, you don't
need a CRM, you don't need a CRM, memorize them.
(23:55):
I could memorize two customersIf it was just you.
I would memorize your name, I'dmemorize your favorite color
and where you live and be noproblem.
But as you scale right, one ofthe problems of scale is having
that you can get to all thatdata.
You're not going to be able tomemorize 100, 200, 300 customers
, 400 contacts, 3000 leads, 1700opportunities right, you're not
(24:19):
right, you're not.
So the ability to be able to, toget that data and be able to
sort it and get to the mostimportant parts of the data and
be able to follow up with theright people at the right time,
that's crucial for any customer,right, any size, because you're
going to scale the smallbusiness.
You're not just going to havetwo, three, four or five clients
, two, three, you want to have amassive, massive book
eventually.
Um, and I I think my advicewould be you're never too small
(24:44):
in that CRM.
You know, I went back I whooped, we started ours I mean, I was
joking before we got it on butlike I think we had our CRM set
up like it was like LLC you know, or sorry, or you know
registration, idea, name, crmand we were up and running
(25:06):
because we just knew it was socore and never having to go back
, never having to rethink it, wenever had to play with
spreadsheets and any of that.
We were just always in the CRMfrom get-go.
So you're never too small.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
That's awesome.
So folks want to get in touchwith you, Talk to us about Arcus
.
How do they get in touch withyou?
Socials, all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Sure, so get in touch with me.
I'm Jason Atwood.
You can email me, jasonatwood,at arcasynccom.
You can hit our website atarcasynccom.
We have a blog going back 15years.
There's over 700 articles on itabout CRM, Salesforce and doing
business.
There's all sorts of greatstuff on there, All sorts of fun
(25:43):
topics.
And if you want to hit me up onLinkedIn, it's you know,
LinkedIn slash Jason M Atwood.
I'm also on X same thing, JasonM Atwood.
That's where I hang out.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
No other places?
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much, jason.
Really appreciate you joiningus today.
And don't forget to ourlisteners like Jason really
appreciate you joining us today.
And don't forget to ourlisteners like follow, share
rate, review, subscribe.
We are everywhere.
You get your podcasts Certainly.
If you have any questions forme and you didn't get Jason's
contact information, it's justpodcast at papertrailscom and we
will get you in touch.
Thanks so much, no-transcript.
(26:25):
If you found this podcasthelpful, don't forget to follow
us at at Paper Trails Payrollacross all social media
platforms and check us out atpapertrailscom for more
information.
As a reminder, the views,opinions and thoughts expressed
are the hosts and guests alone.
The is for general informationpurposes only and should not be
considered legal or financialadvice.
By inviting this guest to ourpodcast, paper Girls does not
imply endorsement of oropposition to any specific
(26:45):
individual organization, productor service.
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