July 12, 2025 • 65 mins
When Marcio Buffolo arrived in Salt Lake City from Brazil, a career making alcohol wasn't part of his plan. With a master's degree in cell biology, he followed his scientist wife to Utah where he worked in university research. But a chance opportunity to solve contamination problems at Shades Brewing changed everything. Marcio's scientific background proved invaluable as he built a quality control lab, identified bacterial culprits, and eventually took over as head brewer when his predecessor unexpectedly departed.
The pandemic transformed Marcio's brewing approach. With taprooms closed and distribution channels disrupted, he pioneered an ambitious strategy: creating a new beer flavor every single week for eighteen months straight. From pie-inspired concoctions to savory experiments like jalapeno popper and spaghetti dinner beers, this creative explosion earned Shades three World Beer Cup medals—the pinnacle of brewing recognition.
Despite this success, Marcio found himself yearning for change. Industry pressures, inflation concerns, and shifting consumer preferences left him questioning his future. That's when Mountain West Cider entered the picture. Though initially unfamiliar with craft cider (despite unknowingly drinking it during Brazilian Christmas celebrations), Marcio discovered a beverage category that perfectly balanced his scientific mindset with creative possibilities.
Now as head cidermaker at Mountain West, he's applying his experimental approach to a new medium—crafting everything from traditional single-varietal ciders aged for months to playful innovations like Bloody Mary cider. He recently earned his Pommelier certification (cider's equivalent to a sommelier) and delights in educating visitors about cider's surprising complexity and diverse styles.
Ready to experience Marcio's craft firsthand? Visit Mountain West's garden in the Marmalade District, where you'll find live music, events, and newly added food options alongside an impressive range of craft beverages. As Mountain West celebrates its 10th anniversary, there's never been a better time to discover how science and creativity converge in every glass.
Head to www.smalllakepod.com/merchandise for Small Lake City Gear!
Join Erik as he supports Fork Cancer, a night of food, drinks, and live music—all for a great cause. Grab your tickets at utah.acscanforkcancer.org and enter Erik Nilsson to help him hit his $12,000 fundraising goal!
Please be sure to like, review, follow, subscribe and share the podcast with your friends and family! See you next time
Join Small Lake City: https://www.smalllakepod.com/subscribe
Instagram: @smalllakepod
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@SmallLakeCityPodcast
TikTok: @smalllakepod
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We did one day one brew with him.
That day we spent the whole daybrewing.
The Monday he put his two weeksnotice 90 barrels Dynamic, Shut
down everything.
Thursdays come and get it andif it's done, it's done.
We're not brewing yet westarted getting lines.
So that was when we did allthose crazy flavors.
(00:21):
In April, Warbeer Cup went toMinneapolis.
We we got three medals.
That was the the top of mycareer.
And as soon as I get home thenext day I went to work.
I felt even harder to go towork and she's like hey, do you
know?
My wife's looking for a cidermaker.
I'm like cider, when you wantto do something, you cannot do a
(00:45):
cider.
When you want to do something,you cannot do it half-assed, you
have to do that full board.
I need to learn everythingabout cider and I have enough.
First time I know Small LakeCity.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
What is up everybody and welcome back to another
episode of the Small Lake Citypodcast.
I'm your host, eric Nielsen.
You might be wondering how aBrazilian grad student at the U
ends up becoming the headbrewmaster at Mountain West
Cider.
And not only that, but thestory of Marcio Bufalo stops by
at Shades Brewing, where he wasthe one who created a lot of the
(01:16):
fun flavors that we know ShadesBrewing as of things like
blueberry, pecan pie, all theway to spaghetti dinner.
So we sit down with MarcioBrufalo and talk more about his
story and how he became the headbrewmaster of Mount West Cider,
and all of the fun story alongthe way.
So, without any further ado,let's jump in the episode and
hear more in my conversationwith me and Marcio.
(01:39):
Yeah, but like I never reallygo to park city because a it's
like it's far enough away whereI want to do things there.
Like I do want to go have somecocktails, have some really good
dinner, have to go to a show,but I'm like I still gotta go
home and the drive is a fuckingpain.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yes, drive over there .
It's, it's cool, it's beautiful.
But yeah, I've been afterdrinking.
No way.
And try to get a hotel there inthe winter, fuck no.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
No, I'm like, I'm not going to pay $1,200 a night for
this, no matter how good therestaurant is.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, same, I'm doing a Park Silly, we're going to a
side gig Cool.
I have a bear-aged coffee beancompany Totally different stuff,
very unique one but then that'smy, my weekend stuff.
So I do in the park city cool.
So every Sunday, go there,spend fucking 10 hours.
(02:32):
That's been there long timeit's from.
Yeah, it starts at 10, but youhave to unload before 8 30, so
yeah, so I'll be there from 8 to5, 8 to 6.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I'll come say hi this weekend because I'm going, so I
have a pretty great weekendahead of me.
So tonight my girlfriend she'sgetting her PhD in.
I guess I've never reallytalked to her on the podcast of
me having a girlfriend, so wemight take this out.
We might not.
Anyway so she's getting a PhDup at the?
U.
In which field?
Chemistry.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
My wife works there as a scientist, I do In
chemistry?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
No, it was in human genetics.
Okay, I'll ask her.
It's a small world and alsoI've learned that, like, small
Lake City exists to everybody inSalt Lake.
But then when you have apodcast and chase the energy of
Small Lake City, it just alwayskeeps happening.
And like where I get sodesensitized to, I'm like, yeah,
what do you know?
You know my cousin from somerandom, so we're going out
(03:27):
tonight because one of hercolleagues just defended his
thesis, so we're going out tocelebrate and then tomorrow,
going up to, we're going to stayat the Pendry at the high like
on the kind of canyon side, goto dinner at Handel and then
wake up tomorrow morning orSunday morning Go record up at
Dendrick and then do brunch atHigh West, then go to Park Silly
(03:48):
, then go sit by the pool, thenhave dinner at Shabu and then go
home.
And as I planned it, I was likeIn Park City.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
stop by.
We're in the top.
Yeah, almost at the end it'sall black.
It's the only black tent.
It's called Spirits of Coffee.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
It's all black.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's the only black tent.
Okay, it's called Spirits ofCoffee, so I'll be there.
I'll have some cold brew foryou for the rest of the night,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
And I will need it.
So I will definitely be there.
But yeah, it's fun to see how.
Yeah, park City, I think, is myfavorite time in the summer,
especially this time of the yearwhere I mean it's currently 87,
which is a little on the olderside.
Like usually, I walk my dogsaround two or three and I'll
check my watch before I go.
I'm like, oh, it's 95.
(04:29):
This is going to be fun.
Yeah, I know.
So it's always good to get upin a little higher elevation.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, but don't get that for you.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah.
Two weeks ago was 39.
Never know, marcia, is itpronounced Ruffalo?
Yeah, okay, I was going to sayit's all right.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Okay, cool, which is hard.
Not everybody can say my nameright.
Well, thankfully I work with.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I have my day job in tech.
We have a lot of engineers fromBrazil, so there's always like
some sort of Brazilian something.
We're always talking about abarbecue.
And then my maid.
I got a maid recently becausemy life was too chaotic to clean
my house and someone introducedthem.
But she's from brazil and soshe that's her name maddie.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
No, it's like maria something maria delmeda, maria
bernadette delmeda, it's my momno, no, no she's too young to be
your mother.
No, she's my mom.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
No no, no.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
She's too young to be your mother.
No, she's my mom.
Oh, that kind of mom?
Yeah, this is true.
If it's her, yeah, she has acompany who runs cleaning
throughout the whole valley.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Let's just test her.
She came on let's just test ithere.
She came on.
No, no, it's like miscellanepursuing don't mean good, no, no
, dang it.
That would have been good,especially as I'm like, yeah,
small city moments happen allthe time and, by the way, you
know my man.
But when I got introduced toher, I text her.
She's like, sorry, you don'tspeak english.
(06:02):
I'm like, all right, let's fireup chat gpt.
And so I just start messagingher in portuguese and she's like
she shows up my house and shestarts talking to me in
portuguese like, oh, no, no, no,like don't speak portuguese.
You've been talking to atranslator this entire time.
So, um, but no, marcia, I'mexcited because I mean obviously
I mean head brewmaster atmountain west cider.
Um, been not just there, I meanfor like three years now, but
(06:26):
there's been a journey throughso many familiar places and
faces, through the valley I'mexcited to to talk through.
And it was even fun, I mean,when I swung by there to talk
with uh chan about a potentialevent.
I mean she spoke so highly ofyou and everything that you've
done there.
So I'm excited, but also wantedto know, kind of, how this all
happened, because I meanobviously originally from Brazil
(06:46):
, but I mean talk me through thepath of how you ended up in
Salt Lake City, utah.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Everybody's like why Salt Lake?
No, it's funny.
So everything started with mywife.
She was doing her PhD in Braziland she went to this meeting in
the countryside in Brazil justa small meeting for the
Brazilian Society of Sciences,something like that and she met
a guy there that went to Brazilto do like a partnership with
(07:17):
other professors and he ended upbeing in this meeting and he
was like scary because it was 13hour flight plus three hour
drive in the middle of nowhere.
And then they meet, they talkand they got invited her to do a
part of her phd here universityof utah.
So she came here in 2008, stayfor a year back to brazil, she
(07:38):
finished her phd and we meet ina bar inside the university okay
and then then we started arelationship and then after a
year she got invited to comeback for a postdoc position and
I was finishing my master.
And she's like, how about we go?
Because you were studyingbiology, we're both biology.
She's on the physiology andhistology field, I was more in
(08:03):
cell biology, but we were bothin the same university, same
campus, the same building, butwe never saw each other until we
were in the bar, because Brazilwould have bars inside of the
campus, like outdoor of the maindoor of the building.
Yeah, there's a bar there, Ilike that.
And then they started runningon this experiment.
They're going to take threehours to run.
(08:24):
Well, what are you going to dofor three hours?
Well, let's get two beers, fourbeers, six beers, meet people
and then go back, finish theexperiment and go home.
Yeah, and we met this way.
And then she's like, okay, howabout this opportunity?
I'm like, okay, I finished mymaster's and I may go.
So she moved to here for sixmonths before me.
I moved here later and Istarted working at u as
(08:47):
researcher associate.
She was a postdoc and I stayedthere for almost four years.
And then one professor nextdoor, the next lab is, uh, jim,
uh, friend with trend father,the owner of shades, okay, and
shades was having problems withbeer going sour, exploding
(09:08):
shelves.
And he's like I need someone torun like a small lab here so we
can fix this problem and nothaving this happen again.
Yeah, and he's like, wow, Iknow a guy on my lab the next
lab who's a home brewer, so I'masking him if he's interested.
And that was a connection thatput me from science to the
industry.
(09:28):
Yeah, like, okay, how about yougo to this brewery and run a
lab just for quality control?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Oh, my God, lab, it's lab.
That's how they get you.
Just come in for a minute, justrun a lab for a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Can you build the lab ?
Can you make this happen?
Can you build the lab?
Can you make this happen?
I'm like I am not qualified forthat, but I can study and I can
try to make it happen.
And the university has asurplus center which all old
equipment goes to this place forsuper cheap, yep.
And I'm like, okay.
So there's this hood thatusually gonna cost you 20, 30
(10:00):
grand for like 100 bucks.
You should buy it.
Oh, there's this incubator thatwill cost you 10 grand for 50
bucks, buy it.
So I started buying all theused equipment and build a lab
at Shades.
And that's when I startedShades.
I was just a lab guy.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So wait, I'm back up a little bit.
So you started brewing on yourown long before that Home brew.
So how did that?
How did how did that start?
When did that start?
Uh, before?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
when I was about to move to south lake I met a guy,
pete, uh, super cool guy andhe's like, yeah, I'll bring my
home, my own beer home.
I'm like, oh, that's neverthought about that in brazil.
And he like, hey, come to myhouse, I'll drink my beers and
we'll see if you like or not.
And it was pretty good beer.
And I'm like, oh, how you dothat?
So he showed me how to homebrew.
(10:51):
From that I met with a fewpeople that has the Lauderdale
Brewery.
I started going to thoseLauderdale Brewery meetings,
learned how to homebrew, boughtbasic equipment here and there,
learned how to homebrew, boughtbasic equipment here and there,
and I was homebrewing at home,literally like once a month,
making few batches, trying tounderstand the process as a
(11:13):
scientist, trying to change hereand there to see what happened.
So I was just homebrew, butit's, in my opinion, since that
time it was too much work.
It's cool, it's nice.
To my opinion, since that timewas too much work.
It's cool, it's nice to haveyour product, but I was living
across the street from a pub.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I don't need to make my own beer.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I only have so much free time Exactly, I can just go
over there, spend a few bucksand get beer.
Yeah, it's cheaper.
At the time it was cheaper andeverything.
So I'm like, yeah, I'll do fora hobby when I have time.
It was nothing that I was.
I was like really investingtime or buying expensive
equipment, it was just for fun.
Yeah, and I was actuallyproducing some decent beers.
(11:54):
Get some medals.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
That was pretty cool at the time, but you had done it
enough.
Where, if you run into someoneat a bar and they're like, oh my
gosh, I need someone to helpwith this brewery and run a lab,
you're like well, I knew, Iknew on the lab side more than
the brewery.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
I never at that time I just visit a few breweries and
I didn't know how scale works.
Yeah, I was like, okay, I knowhow to make wort.
Wort goes to tanks, ferment andbecome beer.
Cool, uh, what is a heatexchange?
I have no idea.
I was cooling my beer with ice,so nice.
Now I know this equipment, allthese pumps.
(12:30):
How a pump works?
I have no idea.
I'm not an engineer, I'm abiologist.
I have no idea how a pump worksTo this day.
Some pumps I have no idea howit works, but it was like some
pumps.
People are like, oh, I havethis differential pressure
bubble up pump.
I'm like cool, I have no ideahow that works.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Don't ask me any questions, but it sounds great.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
After 10 years in the industry, still with equipment,
I have no idea how someequipment works.
Yeah, and then, yeah, I knew alittle bit.
I knew the basics, I knew thescale works, I knew the scale
works and I saw shades at thetime as opportunity to learn, to
invest time and a possibilityto grow.
(13:10):
But also building up the labshowed me that, so many other
phases of the industry that Inever thought about how to grow
yeast, how to cop yeast, how toselect some strengths, how to
avoid, avoid problems, becauseagain was she's having problems
at that time.
So over there and like, okay,let's swap every single part of
(13:34):
the process and grow and seewhere the problem is.
And then we swap hoses, tanksinside the tanks, inside of
valves, every piece of equipmentthe world could touch, until we
found a problem.
And then what was the problem?
Pediococcus.
So pediococcus, it's a bacteria, sorry, yeah, so, yeah, so it
(13:58):
was pediococcus in the heatexchange, which is a very common
thing.
We just fix, change theprocedures.
And at that time we were like,okay, now, which is a very
common thing, we just fix,change procedures.
And at that time we're like,okay, now it's fixed, just let's
keep clean and keep testing.
So that's how I enter in theindustry.
Yeah, the Habakama Brewery isanother story.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Because my curiosity is because my ignorance says oh,
you've been studying biology,you've been doing I mean
scientific experiments to someextent, which I mean brewing is
a scientific experiment.
I mean how much of yourknowledge of biology?
Because, again, you're stillworking with like a live yeast
and creating a, I mean thechemistry like of how this
(14:42):
reaction happens.
But how comfortable were you inthis specific type of reaction,
brewing process compared towhat you've been doing in a lab
in such an educational context?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
So in Brazil I was working with cell biology, but
very focused in genetics.
Okay, so more DNA and a fewproteins specific for muscle
formation.
So it was a very differenttopic.
But during graduation and mymaster, you have a lot of
classes.
One of the classes that I lovedthe most was metabolism and
(15:17):
fermentation.
It's there, it's metabolism,right.
So get the knowledge and justtranslate that.
It's one-to-one, it's easy.
Um, the thing is east makes beer, brewers make wort, brewers
extract sugar.
Yes, who makes sugar becomebeer?
It's east got it.
(15:38):
So there's a.
That's the very famous sayingbrewers make work, east makes
beer.
Yes, so I know who makes beerEast.
So I know that.
I know the process, I know thefermentation.
So, okay, now how can I applythis to the industry?
Okay, I know the process.
I know how this sugar becomesCO2 and alcohol.
(15:59):
How can I get this processbetter?
Because it's not just alcoholand CO2.
There's a lot of flavorsinvolved there, good flavors and
off flavors.
So butter, you don't want tobutter your beer, few styles
maybe, but usually you don'twant that taste of butter.
But in that squash, popcorn,butter in your beer.
(16:21):
That can be produced by theyeast.
Actually, it is produced by theyeast all the time, but at the
end of fermentation yeastcollects that back and removes
that from the beer.
If you don't let the timehappen, that will be on your
product.
So, knowing that process, youunderstanding the process and
(16:44):
how the pathway works, you knowyou have to wait.
You know how to measure, youknow how to prevent that habit.
So that is the translationbetween science lab to the beer.
You know the process, you knowwhat I have to do.
Just do it and that beneficialto that it's knowing and
applying the ignorance oravoiding knowing the process
(17:08):
will generate bad beer.
So just a matter of knowing,understanding, that would be
fine.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, especially once , because I always assumed that
you would have again through allof your getting your master's
and working in labs and goingthrough the scientific process
enough that you can again tastethis new process and be like,
okay, I can figure this out,like I speak the language.
This is just a different kindof dialect, and so you can do
that.
(17:33):
And then also, I'm sure it'sfun to be like cool, now that I
know this process, I know all ofthese inputs, I know what needs
to happen.
Now we can start to play withthese different levers and
really apply the scientificprocess.
Be like, okay if I add moreyeast at the beginning, or this
type of mosaic hop or this typeof yeast let's sit back and
watch what happens and all of asudden you have this knowledge
of all these different levers.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
To really start to have fun with it, I would assume
and impatient because at thescience level, you change one
parameter at a time, yes, andthen you analyze and how's
different from the past?
It's better, it's worse.
Okay, it's better, let's keepit.
And now let's change the secondparameter.
Don't change five things at thesame time and like, oh yeah, it
works.
Which one works?
Which one works?
(18:14):
All of them?
All of them, maybe just one.
The other four is terrible.
So all the patience, all thepatients slowly changing things,
slowly making better, and notalways going to be good.
Sometimes you're going tochange something, you're going
to go bad, like, wait, nope, goback a step, let's change a
different thing.
And that was the lab shades.
(18:40):
Teach me that how to selectyeast.
We were at that time become alittle famous from the Kvajk
strains.
That's something that in the USwas really low, or no one
actually knows that in theindustry.
And a friend of mine broughtthis strain from Lithuania.
Well, he was not in Lithuania,he was somewhere in Europe and
he found this strain and hebrought it to me and he was like
(19:01):
, hey, I love the beers withthis strain, but after three or
four weeks it goes sour.
What's going on?
I'm like give it to me, I havea lad, let's see what's going on
there.
And I spread it on a plate andyeah, some lactobacillus was
mixed on the yeast.
So I'm like, yeah, let's cleanthe lactobacillus.
So I'm like, okay, I can cleanfor you, we get the problem out.
(19:24):
But do you let me stay with alittle bit of yeast strain?
Like okay, no problem.
So I cleaned the lactobacillus,give to him back.
And now I have the yeast strainin my hand which is really good
strain and I'm like, okay, canwe prop and use this in beer?
And it was a phenomenal strainthat we used there for so many
years, give so many awards.
(19:45):
And that yeast strain was veryrevolutionary at that time
because it could ferment fasthigh temperature, producing so
much aromas, nice citrus forward, very fast fermentation, almost
no off flavors.
Everybody was freaking out.
So between probably 18 and 20that was a hype.
(20:06):
Every single brewing in in thecountry was using that strength.
Now we barely hear think aboutit.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
That's interesting that you have this.
Like, I can fix this for youand I'm gonna use it yeah, and
and was good yeah, mostimportantly, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't taste good, yeah,but it was good.
And I mean so, before you havethis conversation with shades I,
where did you see your careergoing?
I mean, I assume you didn'tthink you were going to be
brewing beer.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
No, when I got to the U working at the lab over there
was like what am I going to do?
Am I going to be here and I'lldo my PhD?
That was an option and stay atthe?
U as a researcher.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Or that was an option and stay at the us researcher
or go to the industry as aresearcher, or my sounds like
you, like you knew you wanted todo something in biology, but
like there's all these differentforks that are like I could see
them all but not really sure,and then someone's like just
come set up a lab and see how itgoes and think about this I was
was like finished, my master,fresh finished master, moved
from Brazil to Salt Lake, triedto adapt to language.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
You can clearly hear my broken English.
I barely speak English.
When I moved to here I was okayto read, because lab stuff,
science, is all in English.
So I could read, understand.
I couldn't listen too much andspeaking was terrible.
(21:30):
I try, you have to try, oryou're never going to learn.
So I was like language barrier,totally different culture,
different climate.
Think about today is like 87, 90degrees.
Think about today is like 87,90 degrees.
That's a winter in Brazil.
That's winter in Rio.
(21:50):
Rio have two seasons summer andhell.
So right now it's winter there.
It's probably like 80s.
So different climate, differentfood, different everything.
So I have to adapt.
So I was still like what am Igoing to?
Different everything.
So I have to adapt.
So I was still like what are yougonna do?
So I have to understand whatthe market looks like, what is
(22:12):
the industry?
Uh, my goals in life?
I'm gonna stay here.
You know, as immigrant, I haveto plan two, three, four years
ahead.
This process takes long.
So all this stuff, it's it wastoo much to think about one path
.
I have to have plans B, c, dand Y and Z.
(22:33):
So at that time I didn't know.
I was like, whatever, I feelthat will be a good gig, I might
jump into it and see whathappens.
At the time I was probably intoit and see what happens.
At the time I was probablygoing forward to a PhD pathway.
Got it, this opportunity came.
It was good money, it was nice.
(22:55):
It was a nice environment.
Heroes is fun, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
And when they talked to you about it, did it feel, I
mean, was it very much like wewant you to come full time, or
is it mostly like come solvethis problem At the time, come,
get the problem done and that'sit.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yeah, that was the number one conversation for six,
eight months.
I remember the day of I waseverything was fine.
I was there just gettingsamples from the tanks, and that
was a Friday, and the guy thatwas running the head brewery at
the time was like hey, I'll bebrewing tomorrow.
(23:29):
I know you have Fridays,saturdays, free.
Do you want to come and brewwith me?
I'm like, yeah, I want to do it.
So I did one day one brew withhim.
That day we spent the whole daybrewing.
I was like, super cool, I lovethe idea.
Never get an offer or anything,it was just one day to brew
with him and help him.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
The Monday he put his two weeks notice.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
He's like Marzio can do it, it's fine, and then a
trader was like, okay, what am Igoing to do?
Am I going to have to go to themarket and hire people?
Or at that time, shades wasjust buy a brand new system,
(24:14):
upgrading from seven barrel twovessels very chinese, uh,
terrible brew system to a 30barrel, five vessels, four
vessels, um, auto,semi-automatic, and everything
like should I hire someone rightnow, train this for a month in
this system and then have totrain again?
Or I'll give more of thefreedom to this.
Like, okay, go learn thissystem brand new and in a month
(24:37):
it become full-time.
Well, that was the offer andI'm like, okay, let's do this.
So I kind of helped for thetransition and when the brand
new system arrived, I was fullycommitted.
I quit the?
U, become a head brewer shades.
And again, that's very rare Ihave the opportunity to run a
(24:58):
system with minimum experience.
I was with Trent for a month, amonth and a half, but I have
the desire to learn to taste andevery single batch of cake.
How can we make this better?
Let's study, let's change thisprocess, let's change this mold,
let's talk to people.
And at that time I people inthe industry, which is it's
(25:22):
amazing industry everybody helpseach other.
Yeah, um, I cannot be thankfulfor so many good people in this
industry, in this town that like, okay, you're doing this wrong,
fix this way.
Or you want to improve, usethis malt, use these hops, don't
do this, don't do that.
So that was easy way for me tostep up, get better knowledge
(25:46):
and in less than four months wewere fully brewing like turn and
burn all the time on the newsystem with a great team.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
We have a great people over there, and so I mean
, while you were there, I meanwhat are some of the highlights
of the beers that you were ableto make?
Or I mean some of those, I meanbest moment or best memories
from Shades.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
When we started making some sour beers.
That was the funny thing.
We did one batch with the oldsystem just to test if it could
make a sour beer, and it wasterrible.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
What's the biggest difference between brewing a
sour beer versus brewing otherthings we were doing?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
a kettle sour, which we call easy, fast sour.
It's going to be very nocomplex, low complexity.
You're going to be a beerthat's going to be just sour
with lactic sour.
You're going to be a beerthat's going to be just sour
with, like, lactic sour.
So you're going to have thatlactic acid taste and basically
that's it.
You're not going to have a lotof complexity like other long
(26:45):
time bar age sours or flandersand some styles are going to
have barrel, multiple types oforganisms that will add
complexity to that flavor.
We're talking about simplelactic acid sour made from
lactobacillus.
So lactobacillus will get thewort.
You finish the beer instead ofsending the wort to the tank,
(27:06):
you pitch lactobacillus andovernight that will drop the pH
and will become sour.
Then after that you fermentlike a normal beer and you have
a sour beer.
Okay, usually sour beers justbase sour beers are boring most
of the times a lot of defects,so you're going to see a lot of
that being fruited or spiced orother things.
(27:27):
Shields is known for a lot ofdifferent things, so at that
time we make one with the oldsystem Terrible, terrible, it
was meaty, it was terrible.
And then we fruited.
And then what is the cheapestfruit available was plum.
So okay, let's buy a drum ofplum, throw over there and see
if we can save this.
(27:48):
And after re-fermenting, allthat meaty flavor went away.
The beer was kind of likecrispy, nice, dry, fruity,
refreshing.
It was a summer, like, okay,maybe this can become something
good.
Fast forward.
A year and a half later we werebeing tanks full, basically that
week that you don't haveanything to brew, and this one
(28:10):
tank that was about to get empty.
Nothing really in the schedule.
I'm like oh, I'm going to makea sour beer, let's put a sour
beer there and let's fermentwith the Kavak strain that we
cleaned up.
Let's see how that goes.
We make a small batch, 15barrels, and I was like and I
want to dry hop that with aNelson Savant.
It's a hop that it's reallynice, grapey, like a lot of
(28:34):
grape flavors, of Yon Blanc kindof flavor.
Okay, let's try Hoppip Den andsee how that beer turns out.
And then that beer turns outreally really good, like good.
And that was the second medalof shades in Idaho Falls we got
a medal for sour beer.
I'm like, oh, this beer has afuture, people like it, not a
(28:55):
lot of defects.
So let's refine that, let'smake that better.
Then we run a big batch anddivide that in three small
batches, and one we just dryhopped.
One single fruited, I think itwas just cherry or something
like that.
And the third one I'm going togo crazy.
I throw lactose pineapple,guava think, and it was kind of
(29:20):
like one, two and three.
We named that way and it was sogood and sold out really fast
and everywhere people weretalking about drinking those
beers.
Hey, so that was the start ofthose sour crazy things.
The lactose trend that weintroduced so much lactose in
those beers because we'resouring but we have nothing to
(29:42):
back sweet with, so lactose gaveus that balance.
And the fruits were alltropical, so good.
So we'll say, if any tropicalfruit, oh, so good, so good.
And then we become a trend.
So all kvikes started gettingnumbers, to a point that we
started losing which one is whoa.
Five was dry hop.
No.
Seven was dry hop.
(30:03):
Eight was okay.
We started naming the thing,because we cannot keep number,
so we started naming, naming andthen we have the 2020.
It was February, we're planningbecause summer was coming.
So that dry hopped one won theJBF in 2019 gold medal.
(30:23):
So like, okay, we know we'remaking good stuff, we got gold
at JBF, so let's bump, let'sbrew 90 barrels of that beer
because that beer is going tofly.
Let's prepare, summer is coming, let's start brewing that in
February.
90 barrels, dynamic, dynamic,shut down everything.
(30:46):
Oh, like, okay, liquor storesare shut down.
We have 90 barrel this beeralmost right in the tank.
Like start fermenting two,three days ago.
We're like what are we gonna dowith this amount of work?
So, on that meantime that we'relike thinking what to do
earthquake, so okay, shit, okay,uh, disaster is coming, so
(31:06):
pandemic earthquake.
What's the next plague?
So we're talking aboutapocalypse here.
Yeah, and my uh aj was my bro'sassistant.
He's like the four horsemen ofapocalypse.
Let's call four beers, fourlike plague, yes, hinger,
whatever is the fourth thing.
And they're like, oh, thatmight be too much, people are
(31:27):
dying for this text.
So let's just let's call ahurricane, earthquake, season or
series, whatever which we namedafter, like aftershock,
shockwave, that was the name.
And we divide the 90 barrelsinto 615 barrels, thanks, and
fruit it differently and releaseonce a week.
(31:47):
Wow, so okay, once a week wehave a new flavor in cans.
Only because we're closedpandemic, so it's to-go only
Thursdays.
Come and get it, and if it'sdone, it's done.
Go only, uh, thursdays comingat it, and if it's done, it's
done.
We're not brewing again.
We'll start getting lines andselling out one day.
So that was the train when.
So okay, now we have to makeone beer a week.
(32:09):
Yeah, now you set thatexpectation.
Yeah, and that happens foralmost 18 months.
Wow, we, in 2020, we produce 59different beers.
In 2021, we produce, I think,65 or 70 different beers.
That's insane.
We have one a week.
And then we have the 10thanniversary, which we put 10
collaborations, like releasingtwo a week, yeah.
(32:32):
And then we're like creating somuch, and that was the nice
thing, we have freedom.
So we also like creating somuch, and that was the nice
thing, we have freedom.
So, like every four months,five months, we have all people
together from the brewery,production, sales team,
marketing team.
Okay, I want flavors.
I don't care, give me flavors.
And we started writing theboard.
Okay, we have categories Pie.
(32:54):
So lactose, graham, cracker,panela, cinnamon what else?
Cherry pie, strawberry bar pie,let's go.
And they started writing theboard every crazy ideas.
I don't care if it's crazy,good, let's go Now.
I want a fruit combinations westart giving.
Now I want a crazy combinations.
(33:14):
I don't care if you think thisis insane, it tastes like awful.
Give me the ideas, we will makethis happen.
And we have those jalapenopoppers yeah, so bacon, cream
cheese and jalapeno spaghetti,yep, and I've had the spaghetti,
tomato, basil, cilantro andoregano.
(33:35):
Some like okay, some like okay,pms pecan pie.
So, like all of those ideas.
Some go more towards the sourside.
Yeah, some we didn't sour andmake it as a cream ale.
And some went to a new base.
That was a uh dessert, uh, soit was like an inquiry style
(33:56):
base.
So we have these three and theystart running all those kind of
flavors.
So that was when we did allthose crazy flavors.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Wow, I mean that's crazy to think of All right,
every week.
We need something new.
We now have this system thatcan support it, but then also
being like, hey guys, we'rerunning out of ideas.
Just tell us, just keep going,keep going.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Nothing's off the table If it happens sometime
like, okay, we're damn, we don'thave a way to make this happen.
Well, what was the mostsuccessful last year?
Key lime pie, bring it back.
Another one Strawberry berrypie, bring it back.
Bloody Mary, bring it back.
So it's something like that oh,bring it back, bloody Mary,
bring it back.
So it's something like that.
Oh, the jalapeno pineapplepickle jalapeno pineapple, bring
(34:40):
it back.
Yeah, so stuff like that wassuccessful.
Yeah, bring it back.
Then we don't have people whostill want it to go too crazy.
But why not so?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
it's interesting.
So you have this experiencewhere you're like I brew beer at
home takes too much time.
I'm good you have thisopportunity.
You have so much fun with it inturn.
I mean again, like thispandemic and earthquake and like
windstorm into like we're justgoing to make a new brew every
week.
I mean, and talk me through howyou go from this world of beer
(35:09):
to then transition to cider.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
So that was June 21,.
Great year, all right.
Then stress of other thingsstarted coming through.
So we started seeing multiplebreweries going out of business.
Even after pandemic you sawthat recover and then breweries
going out of business.
It started stressing me outPrices going up, inflation, and
(35:35):
it was hard for us to try not topass it to consumer.
But every time you pass aconsumer you have a backslash,
yeah, back splash, a backlash,sorry.
And then we're like, okay, thatstress are building up in my
mind.
Uh, at the same time I saw thewhole innovation.
(35:56):
Every beer every week started todie out.
People like, okay, I, I tryeverything.
Pretty cool.
Now let me go back to myeveryday beer.
And that was not an everydaybeer.
It's not beer.
You could pound four or five.
That was the idea.
To drink share one can.
Now everybody want to drinkfour or five of the same.
Those beer were going down.
(36:17):
I saw that.
I saw the trend.
I talked around a few peoplelike industry gonna suffer for a
while.
Packaged beer is gonna go downheavily and I started stressing
too much I.
I started seeing things notgoing well for the next two or
(36:39):
three years.
That was one thing that startedkeeping me awake multiple days
a week and that stress wasbuilding up so strong that I
needed to change pace.
That was unexpected.
Sida was not in my radar at all.
I was looking for changeenvironment, change pace and
(37:03):
maybe even changing industry.
I even talked to people.
To go back to the biologicalscience.
I have friends that work at thetime.
It was BioFire, biomedia.
I'm like, hey, come on, comework with me, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like maybe let's see howthings are going to go.
(37:25):
So on my mind I was on that tryto change environment, try to
change pace.
That was on building up in mymind.
On the background I was notactive, applying, I was not
active.
Like looking for was not active, looking for jobs.
That was just in my mind.
And then that starts aboutFebruary, march.
(37:45):
In April, world Beer Cup I wentto Minneapolis.
We got three medals.
That was the top of my career.
That it's the most importantcompetition in the world for
beer.
We got three medals all in sourbeers, all in those crazy
creations.
We're so happy.
(38:05):
I come back home like, okay, Ithink this can give me more time
on this industry.
And as soon as I get home, thenext day I went to work.
I felt even harder to go towork, like that's, yeah, I
thought this will give me a bumpand actually put more pressure
on me and I was not feeling atall.
(38:28):
And then at the same week Ihave a friend in the industry
who was covering for the formercider maker at mount west.
So he laughed about that timeand she was covering for him.
Like as much she could she wentthere, put side in the tank
when she could, she went therefilter, but things getting
(38:50):
behind the mount west.
And I called her one day and Istarted like talking to her
about how unhappy I was, how Ineed a change of pace, and she's
like, hey, do you know?
My wife's looking for a cidermaker.
I'm like, cider, what?
What is cider?
I not even knew.
I haven't even drink cider.
Yeah, well, let me correct, Ididn't know.
(39:11):
I haven't drink cider becausein Brazil we drink cider since
we were kids, but in Brazil it'smarketed as poor people.
Sparkling wine oh, interesting,but it's cider.
It says cider on the bottle butnobody knows what cider is in
Brazil.
So what happens is people thinkit's just a cheap bottle of
(39:33):
sparkling wine.
Yeah, and I drink that stillstand because that is a very
normal thing to drink on thechristmas in brazil.
So everybody that grow up in apoor family, when you go about
december the shelves are full ofthat and talk about a buck,
buck feet the bottle.
Wow, so people buy that a lotbecause sparkly pop, it has a
(39:55):
corking cage, it looks nice, soeverybody has that Because it's
cheap.
And you think they're drinkingbeer or wine.
They're actually drinking cider.
So I didn't know.
And then I was like, oh, Idrink that cider in Brazil, but
I never drink cider here.
She's like oh, they are lookingfor how about you text them?
(40:15):
It would be a nice change ofpace.
It would be a nice change ofenvironment, different industry.
But how much work is that?
How is the workload?
It's not like beer.
You don't have to brew everyday Because, as my wife says,
it's an urban society.
So we buy juice, so juice comesto us.
(40:38):
So all the process ofextracting sugar that takes you
eight hours a day in a brewerycomes in a tote.
You just have to pump that inthe tank.
Yeah, so the everyday hard laboron the brewery side that
breweries have to make, thatdoes exist inside All the cellar
(40:58):
side.
That's also heavy in beer isthe same inside.
So at the end, process,everyday work, is the same load
as a cider maker, as a cellarmaker, a cellar man in the
brewery.
So those two jobs are verysimilar.
The bigger difference will beselecting your juice.
How are you going to approachyour juice?
(41:19):
Which varieties are you goingto use?
How are you going to fermentEasy strain?
So that comes to deciding, tomake decisions.
So that umbrella of work it'sdifferent, it's more specialized
, but every day it's verysimilar to a cellar man.
So she explained that to me.
I'm like oh, I can do that.
How many employees?
Just you and the production.
(41:41):
I'm like well, I love people,but just me.
I can make my own time Soundskind of nice, so I text them.
I'm like, hey, jen, jeff, youguys looking for a setting maker
?
I am looking, well, I'm notexpecting you here, but yeah,
(42:02):
let's talk.
So we started interview, set,all the the conversation, and
then I put my mouth uh, notice,because I don't want to leave.
At the time the guy's hangingdry, so like, hey, I'm gonna
leave.
Sorry, thank you for theopportunity.
Thank you for all.
I think it was a nice both ways.
Uh, you guys give meopportunity, but also I
(42:25):
delivered as much as I could.
Yeah, so it was a good.
It was a nice, friendlytransition.
I still talk to them all thetime.
So it was really nice, friendlytransition.
And I started on my ass aboutthree years, in three days and
yeah, and then cider was adifferent world and Scion.
(42:49):
Here there's a bar in town thatfell on one of the best in the
country, literally one of thebest cider bars in the country.
It's really rare to go to acity and find so many examples
of ciders in one single bar,which is wild because that's
something that happens a lot inUtah.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Which is wild, Like obviously there's issues of why
it isn't a very alcohol friendlystate, but then it's like we
have so many great breweries andso many great distilleries and
so many great cideries.
It like doesn't make sense, butI'm glad that it does.
I think it's that because ofthe repression.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Yep, when you want to do something, you cannot do a
half-ass.
Yeah, you have to do that fullboard, with all your passion and
make it the best, because thenyou can break down those
barriers of the state imposed toyou or the weird laws.
Also, the way people look atyou when you say, oh, sometimes
(43:43):
like, oh, I work in the alcoholindustry, you have the looks.
Yeah, for the good or for thebad, you have both.
There's a nice experiment runin some place where people it's
a room with a thousand people,all different occupations, and
the person stand up like I am anengineer.
(44:03):
How many people look at thatperson is how much that
occupation is interesting.
The number two, the top two, isbrewmaster or alcohol industry
and astronaut.
So that is the top two.
More, uh, attentions, people.
So it's really cool, prettygood for the bed, right, right.
So I went to Sion like real, Ineed to learn everything about
(44:28):
cider and I have a month Like,okay, come here, let's drink,
let's talk.
So it was a month of transition.
Then I was working shades inthe morning, leaving.
Go to Sion, drink two or threeciders, learn.
Go to Moes helping them.
Help the LA Lauren I can't sayher name.
Help Lauren to filter or dosomething so I can learn as well
(44:50):
.
So it was a month of doing thisevery day until I become
full-time there and then I waslike, okay, I actually like
cider, it's an interestingbeverage.
So I started slowly learningmore.
There's a meeting like CBC CraftBrewers Conference.
(45:11):
There's a cider con hey, forcider.
Yeah, which is so nice.
It's a smaller meeting than CBCand you have the same type
people.
So you're going to see the beernerds the brewers are the cider
makers.
You're going to see the me.
So you're going to see the beernerds, the brewers or the cider
makers.
You're going to see the meager.
You're going to see theconnoisseurs.
You're going to see all thosekind of people.
But the cider con has one moretype of people the farmers.
(45:36):
Yeah, because in a sense, theguy that take care of the farm
and grow the apples.
Most of the times he's thecider maker.
So you have the farmers there.
You don't see a barley growerat the CBC.
You barely see hop growers,barley growers.
You don't see that.
You see the seller peopleselling the barley, selling the
hops.
But the grower, the farmers,the guy, that's everyday labor.
(45:57):
You don't see them At a silicon.
You see, you talk to thembecause it makes a difference
when he fertilized the.
The.
The crop will determine ifyou're gonna be a sweeter or not
on the cider how, how levelsweetness?
Because the nitrogen you gottaimpact.
So you have so much detailsthat you never pay attention.
(46:17):
In beer there's so manyvariables.
In cider apple, it's your mainthing, so the farmer is
extremely important.
So that was a blow blow my mind.
I was like, okay, I want tolearn more about this.
I I was so passionate aboutwhen I went there.
I'm like I want more, I want tolearn more, please.
And that was my first idcon in2023, chicago, uh, 24 was in in.
(46:43):
And this year I got ascholarship to go to the Chicago
again and not only to be therebut also be part of the American
Science Association and to dothe test of sommelier.
Which is the sommelier?
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, so I was talking with Sharon about it and
she was talking about how yougot this certification.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So that was because the scholarship was able to go
and fully supported the mom andI team like, okay, go study,
let's go and taste.
Insiders all over the worldidentify our flavors that are
different, not only differentfrom beer, but also different
from how you explain that andhow you verbalize.
These terms are different fromwine, cider and beer.
(47:31):
So we have to understand thoseterms and now change your mind
to those terms.
So cider is different, is verydifferent and unique and it's
more detailed than beer.
I believe that when it comes tofinding the taste, finding the
tune, taste, everyday operationinsider is more laid back
(47:53):
because at the end we're gonnafilter it.
We're gonna kind of filter,sterile filter.
So if there's a small chance ofsmall contamination in the tank
, no big deal because we usekilling yeast.
The yeast is going to grow toomuch, going to kill the other
yeast, so that will prevail, wedon't have to worry about.
(48:14):
And then when you filter thatis going to go away.
So we have more ways to goaround than beer.
But when it comes to finalproduct cider, it's more
detailed.
You have more complexity thanfew styles of beer.
So it also comes to.
(48:35):
You can taste differencebetween an apple that grows in
Michigan versus the one thatgrows in Washington, because
there's one thing called the roi, and the soil would different,
the sunlight would be different,the fertilization will be
different.
Also, they're gonna press indifferent press.
If you use a press that willextract a harsh, you're gonna
(48:57):
introduce co2, or the old co2that is already completely
different of the juice.
Now it's selection time,temperature.
How are you going to that sweet, not that sweet.
It's going to be dry, stillsparkling.
Are you going to be in a 750 mlbottle?
Are you going to be in a can?
So much difference for onesimple apple.
(49:18):
Yeah, and that was whatfascinates me.
And I even started talkingabout pairing, pairing cider
with food.
It's another world.
And sometimes you're like, okay, I go to a dinner, oh, we're
going to pair this pork chopwith this beer.
I'm like I wish it was cider.
Yeah, so for me it's gettingmore passion.
(49:43):
It's not more, it's different.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah, it's a different type of passion,
especially when you had goingfrom this situation where you're
like, oh, I learned a lot, Idid a lot, but like something's
off, I need change, I need to gosomewhere else, and then have
this opportunity again come toyou and be like, oh wait, this
is refreshing, this is a newthing to tackle, there are these
new nuances and really findthis like harmony in it.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Let's learn, and that was my passion is always
learning.
As a scientist, like I want tolearn, I want to tweak, I want
to bake better, I want tounderstand the process.
And now that I understand theprocess, I know how it works,
how can they make it better ordifferent.
So my one I know how it works,how can they make it better or
different.
So Mountain West was oppositefor Shades.
(50:26):
So Shades was at the time verynormal classic beers and they
bring all this crazy MountainWest, if you go there before me
it was already some differenttype of ciders and now I'm
trying to make more classicstuff.
So it's a little differentbecause it's how the company,
(50:52):
it's, it's, it's on the track,not, but it never left my crazy
side.
Of course, if you go thereright now, there's a bloody mary
cider on draft.
Yeah, why not?
It's, it's cider is a bloodymary and it's alcoholic bloody
mary already on draft.
So if you want to add anothershot of vodka, for example, it
will be the most alcoholicbloody m in Utah.
Why not?
Because it's my creativity, letme do it.
So let's do it At the same time.
I want to do the classics.
I want to do the slowfermentation, single varietal.
(51:14):
If I can get late harvest, lowfertilizer apples, I want that
juice.
I want that juice to fermentvery slow, do six months
fermentation.
Then a nice, non-filteredbottle, 750 ml, corking cage,
classic, beautiful.
At the same time I want tothrow on we make a negroni para
(51:40):
aged gin cider with vermouth, uhand and um beaters.
So why not?
Yeah, making all kind of things, but cider has this flexibility
and for me, very similar to thesour beer.
Then it pairs well with fruits,it pair well with spices.
(52:01):
It can go crazy, it can goclassic.
So it's so complex, and why not?
Speaker 2 (52:07):
let's, let's play around yeah, might as well have
fun with it.
Yeah, yeah, that's.
It's so fun to hear like thewhole journey of it all, of how
I mean everything just kind ofworked out and now you find this
next adventure.
That's again like plays to thatscientific nature of you being
like just giving a new process.
I want to learn something, Iwant to refine it, I want to
pull on these levers and reallyjust grow.
(52:29):
Um, and especially the pointwhere you're like, yeah, I'll go
get my accreditation to tolearn even more.
And then, but there's alsostill you're like, but I'm gonna
do a bloody mary cider and I'mgonna do that like we're you
still gonna have fun and playwith that.
The.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Pameli was a nice journey.
We were all studying together,a few people to try to get a
test.
So it's a studying process.
We have to learn all the theory.
So learn not only how to make acider, but the process is
growing.
So we have a lot of orchardknowledge that has to be evolved
(53:02):
.
You have to have pairing a lotof orchard knowledge that has to
be evolved.
It has to have pairing, a lotof pairing.
So how to pair studies withfood, with chocolate, with
desserts, stuff like that.
And then also the tasting.
And that taste was the fun part, because it's a 750 ml bottle.
I'm going to open that and drink.
All by myself, I will get tothe end of the third bottle.
I'm not going to be able tofinish my study of the day.
(53:25):
Yes, so we should do it in agroup of 10, 7, 5 people.
We can go through 7, 10 ciderson that day and study nicely.
So we partnered with Matt Ostrud.
Matt, his last name I cannotpronounce, but Matt is the first
pommelier in Utah.
(53:46):
Okay, matt, his last name Icannot pronounce, but Matt is
the first Pommelier in Utah.
Okay, it's partnered with Sion.
Okay, me, him, rio, erica andthen a few people in my house we
all sit down and start studyingfor the test and that was the
best part, because we all sittogether against Matt's notes,
because he's a pommelier, yeah,we have to get close to what
he's writing.
(54:06):
So it was the fine-tuning likeweeks before the test and we all
went to chicago do the test andeverybody that studied together
the tasting we all pass.
That's amazing.
That was super cool, um, butit's well, that was phenomenal.
So everybody's studyingtogether.
We got the certificationtogether.
(54:28):
It was super cool no, that'sawesome.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
You guys could do it as a team as well, I mean, which
makes it more fun, because,again, if you're drinking alone
then it's not.
I mean you can't do as much,but then it's also not as fun to
like, compare and share andtalk, and I mean alcohol brings
people together.
I mean it's a social beverageand so if it's not bringing
people together, it's gotta be.
I can't imagine be the sameexperience if it wasn't done
that well or done that way allright, it'll be solitary, it'll
(54:51):
be probably alcoholic, not thatreally want um.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
For people that don't know about cider, uh, you
should be aware of styles.
So there's, cider is not juststrong, bullying or orchard
sweet stuff.
Nice, there's probably morethan 25 styles of cider Fruited,
botanical, high tannin, highacid, low tannin, low acid,
(55:17):
sweet, sparkling, flat.
It can be funk, it can be clean, it can be a very nice
expression of the single applePears.
So many styles of pears I'llmake with pears Culinary pears,
tanic pears, singletree pears,and then other we call fortified
(55:38):
ones, so ice ciders, pomo Pomois a beverage that I never heard
about that and most of thepeople have no idea what pomo is
.
Pomo is equivalent of port winefor cider.
Okay, so it's a fortified ciderusing apple brandy.
(55:59):
So apple brandy and starting'mstarting fermenting cider, so
basically apple juice.
But then it's not just a mix.
You have to age that months oryears in barrels.
So that's a beverage that is sogood, it's growing Finally
people started getting hands onand it's so, so good that people
(56:19):
should start drinking morePomo's.
Speaker 2 (56:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
And again, it's a new industry that's growing.
Luckily, it's the only I thinkit's the only alcoholic category
that's still growing in the US.
Everything else is kind ofstatic or going down.
It's a new generation, gen Z iscoming Low alcohol consumption,
more cannabis product beingconsumed we got it, it's a trend
(56:43):
.
But more cannabis product beingconsumed we got it, it's a
trend.
But it's always like thisYou're always going to have one
or two generations that will below and then a few years later
they will find out that, hey, Imiss all those years not
drinking this product, so let'sstart drinking those products
again.
It's just a phase.
I know that what's either isthere is here to stay.
(57:03):
It's a gluten-free, naturallygluten-free product.
It's usually the dry ones thatwe made in Mountain West.
It's low calorie.
This is zero sugar, so, yeah,it's a really good beverage.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
More people should try it, and I mean I love going
to Mountain West.
I mean sitting at the gardenthere's usually always live
music or something going on,especially in the summer.
I mean perfect night.
I mean sometimes I'll Uber Eatsfood in, sometimes I'll have a
food truck, sometimes I'll breeda board game or something and
we're going to start having food.
That's right this week.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Even more reason.
Yeah, we're going to have asandwich and other like small,
like a small bites.
That's being uh craft by chefsright now.
So it's it's going to evenmatter the garden.
It's phenomenal.
I love the vibe that that thatoutdoor space, uh, concerts, as
you said, all the time, uh, yarn, it's been a very successful.
So people go there to tellstories.
(57:57):
It's really cool.
It just go there to hearstories like this for 10 minutes
, 5 minutes, and you can know alot of people because they bring
touchy, very funny stories.
So you can meet so many people.
So all these events are beingheld over there, bringing life
(58:18):
to that part of the city that'sa little forgotten.
Yeah, put it this way,marmalade District is growing,
but it's still a lot to bediscovered.
And Moet's there.
He's been there forgotten.
Yeah, put it this way,marmalade District's growing,
but it's still alive to bediscovered.
And Moet's there.
It's been there for 10 years.
It's going to be ouranniversary this year of 10
years, so there's a lot ofspecial things that we're
bringing in.
So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:37):
Come swing by, have a ruby, have a Bloody Mary cider,
have whatever tickles yourfancy.
There's always going to be someclassics that we've talked
about, some fun things we'vetalked about, and who knows what
else is to come.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Just one thing I want to bring up.
We talk about a small city.
I love the one thing that Petefrom City Weekly was telling the
story that he was in Greece ayear ago and he was with his
family and he was in theelevator and he's talking to his
brother, I think and he heardsomeone on the back of the
(59:12):
elevator say, oh, finallyEnglish, I can talk to someone
in English.
Where are you guys from?
And he's like I'm from SaltLake City.
And this guy like oh, I'mPortland, but I know one person
from Salt Lake City, a buffaloLike no way, I'm in Greece in
the middle of nowhere.
And this guy that I meet theonly English I've been listening
(59:32):
for the past three weeks is aguy from Portland that knows you
.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
The one person he knows in Utah, and I often don't
know either person I know InSalt Lake City.
Oh, even in Greece.
It happens everywhere.
That's even in Greece.
It happens everywhere.
That's amazing, marcio.
I want to end with the twoquestions I always ask everybody
at the end of each episode.
Number one if you could havesomeone on the Small Lake City
podcast and hear more abouttheir story and what they're up
to, who would you want to hearfrom?
Speaker 1 (59:56):
one person can bring a few you can name a couple.
Of course, I would like to seethe guys that start brewing
industry here.
So there's a few people that,like Dale from Beehive Tampling
yeah For sure it's a good name Afew people in the industry that
(01:00:19):
brought things live to thisarea.
But also there is a guy.
It's going to be hard probably,but we have a Nobel Prize, a
Nobel Prize in Salt Lake.
Yeah, that would be phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
I got to hurry on that one.
Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Yes you have to hurry that.
For sure I have with him a fewtimes.
It's a really great story ofhow he comes to Salt Lake and
how he developed a whole geneticfield that changed the world
and how he got a Nobel Prizeworking in Utah, at Salt Lake.
He lives here, he lives in theavenues, he loves the city.
(01:01:00):
He's already on this almost 90s, so yeah hurry up yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Time's not in my favor, nor his, but we'll, yeah,
we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
Yeah, him would be really cool to bring in.
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Totally.
And then lastly, if people wantto find out more information
about Mountain West or see whatciders are coming up what's the
best place?
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
social media, so mount west cider or mount west
hard cider, so mount west ciderfor our instagram, facebook and
uh website.
Our website just totally new,launched today, oh cool, so
updated, ready to go events andeverything.
So social media is the bestplace.
Or stop by 425 north, 400 Westin the Marmalade District where
(01:01:45):
their garden's open.
We have the new roof, new roomin the front.
Even for this heat, if thegarden is too hot, don't worry,
we have the sunroof, it's in thefront.
Right now it's 69 degrees.
It's really good yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Cold air-conditioned room.
Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Maybe freeze a room cider Exactly cold air
conditioned room, maybe for hisown cider, exactly, but stop by,
or our website, and yeah thanksfor having me.
Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
No, thank you, marcio .
It's been fun, to fun to hearyour story and hear more about
how you got there and I mean thewhole journey across the way.
But yeah, I will be.
I guess I will be there soonbecause there's an event we're
doing with Bookish on, I thinkit's like August 19th.
I'll have to look.
Anyway, if you're listening tothis, check Instagram, I'll tell
you there.
But no, I mean, this has beengreat.
Thank you so much.
Keep making classic ciders,keep making fun ciders, and who
(01:02:31):
knows what alcoholic beverageyou'll end up in next.
Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
Go make some whiskey, some wines and something who
knows we're going to of winelast year.
So look for the cans SummitWine.
It's Mount West.
Okay, sparkling Rosé, sparklingBrut, and the whole bottles of
the Mount West Cellar.
Yeah, we have a full line ofwine now there we go, you're
already doing wine.
So now what?
Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Sake next who knows.
I don't think there's anyonedoing that anyway, oh yeah there
is, there's one sake, sake,suki.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Oh yeah, you're right , she's.
Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
They're making really good sake utah never ceases to
amaze me.
There's always something,there's always something I don't
know about happening.
Uh yeah, no thanks, bernard,that was a stick here, so good.
We did one day one brew with him.
That day we spent the whole daybrewing.
The Monday he put his two weeksnotice 90 barrels Dynamic, Shut
down everything.
Thursdays come and get it andif it's done, it's done.
We're not brewing yet westarted getting lines.
So that was when we did allthose crazy flavors.
(00:21):
In April, Warbeer Cup went toMinneapolis.
We we got three medals.
That was the the top of mycareer.
And as soon as I get home thenext day I went to work.
I felt even harder to go towork and she's like hey, do you
know?
My wife's looking for a cidermaker.
I'm like cider, when you wantto do something, you cannot do a
(00:45):
cider.
When you want to do something,you cannot do it half-assed, you
have to do that full board.
I need to learn everythingabout cider and I have enough.
First time I know Small LakeCity.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
What is up everybody and welcome back to another
episode of the Small Lake Citypodcast.
I'm your host, eric Nielsen.
You might be wondering how aBrazilian grad student at the U
ends up becoming the headbrewmaster at Mountain West
Cider.
And not only that, but thestory of Marcio Bufalo stops by
at Shades Brewing, where he wasthe one who created a lot of the
(01:16):
fun flavors that we know ShadesBrewing as of things like
blueberry, pecan pie, all theway to spaghetti dinner.
So we sit down with MarcioBrufalo and talk more about his
story and how he became the headbrewmaster of Mount West Cider,
and all of the fun story alongthe way.
So, without any further ado,let's jump in the episode and
hear more in my conversationwith me and Marcio.
(01:39):
Yeah, but like I never reallygo to park city because a it's
like it's far enough away whereI want to do things there.
Like I do want to go have somecocktails, have some really good
dinner, have to go to a show,but I'm like I still gotta go
home and the drive is a fuckingpain.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yes, drive over there .
It's, it's cool, it's beautiful.
But yeah, I've been afterdrinking.
No way.
And try to get a hotel there inthe winter, fuck no.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
No, I'm like, I'm not going to pay $1,200 a night for
this, no matter how good therestaurant is.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, same, I'm doing a Park Silly, we're going to a
side gig Cool.
I have a bear-aged coffee beancompany Totally different stuff,
very unique one but then that'smy, my weekend stuff.
So I do in the park city cool.
So every Sunday, go there,spend fucking 10 hours.
(02:32):
That's been there long timeit's from.
Yeah, it starts at 10, but youhave to unload before 8 30, so
yeah, so I'll be there from 8 to5, 8 to 6.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I'll come say hi this weekend because I'm going, so I
have a pretty great weekendahead of me.
So tonight my girlfriend she'sgetting her PhD in.
I guess I've never reallytalked to her on the podcast of
me having a girlfriend, so wemight take this out.
We might not.
Anyway so she's getting a PhDup at the?
U.
In which field?
Chemistry.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
My wife works there as a scientist, I do In
chemistry?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
No, it was in human genetics.
Okay, I'll ask her.
It's a small world and alsoI've learned that, like, small
Lake City exists to everybody inSalt Lake.
But then when you have apodcast and chase the energy of
Small Lake City, it just alwayskeeps happening.
And like where I get sodesensitized to, I'm like, yeah,
what do you know?
You know my cousin from somerandom, so we're going out
(03:27):
tonight because one of hercolleagues just defended his
thesis, so we're going out tocelebrate and then tomorrow,
going up to, we're going to stayat the Pendry at the high like
on the kind of canyon side, goto dinner at Handel and then
wake up tomorrow morning orSunday morning Go record up at
Dendrick and then do brunch atHigh West, then go to Park Silly
(03:48):
, then go sit by the pool, thenhave dinner at Shabu and then go
home.
And as I planned it, I was likeIn Park City.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
stop by.
We're in the top.
Yeah, almost at the end it'sall black.
It's the only black tent.
It's called Spirits of Coffee.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
It's all black.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's the only black tent.
Okay, it's called Spirits ofCoffee, so I'll be there.
I'll have some cold brew foryou for the rest of the night,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
And I will need it.
So I will definitely be there.
But yeah, it's fun to see how.
Yeah, park City, I think, is myfavorite time in the summer,
especially this time of the yearwhere I mean it's currently 87,
which is a little on the olderside.
Like usually, I walk my dogsaround two or three and I'll
check my watch before I go.
I'm like, oh, it's 95.
(04:29):
This is going to be fun.
Yeah, I know.
So it's always good to get upin a little higher elevation.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, but don't get that for you.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah.
Two weeks ago was 39.
Never know, marcia, is itpronounced Ruffalo?
Yeah, okay, I was going to sayit's all right.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Okay, cool, which is hard.
Not everybody can say my nameright.
Well, thankfully I work with.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I have my day job in tech.
We have a lot of engineers fromBrazil, so there's always like
some sort of Brazilian something.
We're always talking about abarbecue.
And then my maid.
I got a maid recently becausemy life was too chaotic to clean
my house and someone introducedthem.
But she's from brazil and soshe that's her name maddie.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
No, it's like maria something maria delmeda, maria
bernadette delmeda, it's my momno, no, no she's too young to be
your mother.
No, she's my mom.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
No no, no.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
She's too young to be your mother.
No, she's my mom.
Oh, that kind of mom?
Yeah, this is true.
If it's her, yeah, she has acompany who runs cleaning
throughout the whole valley.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Let's just test her.
She came on let's just test ithere.
She came on.
No, no, it's like miscellanepursuing don't mean good, no, no
, dang it.
That would have been good,especially as I'm like, yeah,
small city moments happen allthe time and, by the way, you
know my man.
But when I got introduced toher, I text her.
She's like, sorry, you don'tspeak english.
(06:02):
I'm like, all right, let's fireup chat gpt.
And so I just start messagingher in portuguese and she's like
she shows up my house and shestarts talking to me in
portuguese like, oh, no, no, no,like don't speak portuguese.
You've been talking to atranslator this entire time.
So, um, but no, marcia, I'mexcited because I mean obviously
I mean head brewmaster atmountain west cider.
Um, been not just there, I meanfor like three years now, but
(06:26):
there's been a journey throughso many familiar places and
faces, through the valley I'mexcited to to talk through.
And it was even fun, I mean,when I swung by there to talk
with uh chan about a potentialevent.
I mean she spoke so highly ofyou and everything that you've
done there.
So I'm excited, but also wantedto know, kind of, how this all
happened, because I meanobviously originally from Brazil
(06:46):
, but I mean talk me through thepath of how you ended up in
Salt Lake City, utah.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Everybody's like why Salt Lake?
No, it's funny.
So everything started with mywife.
She was doing her PhD in Braziland she went to this meeting in
the countryside in Brazil justa small meeting for the
Brazilian Society of Sciences,something like that and she met
a guy there that went to Brazilto do like a partnership with
(07:17):
other professors and he ended upbeing in this meeting and he
was like scary because it was 13hour flight plus three hour
drive in the middle of nowhere.
And then they meet, they talkand they got invited her to do a
part of her phd here universityof utah.
So she came here in 2008, stayfor a year back to brazil, she
(07:38):
finished her phd and we meet ina bar inside the university okay
and then then we started arelationship and then after a
year she got invited to comeback for a postdoc position and
I was finishing my master.
And she's like, how about we go?
Because you were studyingbiology, we're both biology.
She's on the physiology andhistology field, I was more in
(08:03):
cell biology, but we were bothin the same university, same
campus, the same building, butwe never saw each other until we
were in the bar, because Brazilwould have bars inside of the
campus, like outdoor of the maindoor of the building.
Yeah, there's a bar there, Ilike that.
And then they started runningon this experiment.
They're going to take threehours to run.
(08:24):
Well, what are you going to dofor three hours?
Well, let's get two beers, fourbeers, six beers, meet people
and then go back, finish theexperiment and go home.
Yeah, and we met this way.
And then she's like, okay, howabout this opportunity?
I'm like, okay, I finished mymaster's and I may go.
So she moved to here for sixmonths before me.
I moved here later and Istarted working at u as
(08:47):
researcher associate.
She was a postdoc and I stayedthere for almost four years.
And then one professor nextdoor, the next lab is, uh, jim,
uh, friend with trend father,the owner of shades, okay, and
shades was having problems withbeer going sour, exploding
(09:08):
shelves.
And he's like I need someone torun like a small lab here so we
can fix this problem and nothaving this happen again.
Yeah, and he's like, wow, Iknow a guy on my lab the next
lab who's a home brewer, so I'masking him if he's interested.
And that was a connection thatput me from science to the
industry.
(09:28):
Yeah, like, okay, how about yougo to this brewery and run a
lab just for quality control?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Oh, my God, lab, it's lab.
That's how they get you.
Just come in for a minute, justrun a lab for a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Can you build the lab ?
Can you make this happen?
Can you build the lab?
Can you make this happen?
I'm like I am not qualified forthat, but I can study and I can
try to make it happen.
And the university has asurplus center which all old
equipment goes to this place forsuper cheap, yep.
And I'm like, okay.
So there's this hood thatusually gonna cost you 20, 30
(10:00):
grand for like 100 bucks.
You should buy it.
Oh, there's this incubator thatwill cost you 10 grand for 50
bucks, buy it.
So I started buying all theused equipment and build a lab
at Shades.
And that's when I startedShades.
I was just a lab guy.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So wait, I'm back up a little bit.
So you started brewing on yourown long before that Home brew.
So how did that?
How did how did that start?
When did that start?
Uh, before?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
when I was about to move to south lake I met a guy,
pete, uh, super cool guy andhe's like, yeah, I'll bring my
home, my own beer home.
I'm like, oh, that's neverthought about that in brazil.
And he like, hey, come to myhouse, I'll drink my beers and
we'll see if you like or not.
And it was pretty good beer.
And I'm like, oh, how you dothat?
So he showed me how to homebrew.
(10:51):
From that I met with a fewpeople that has the Lauderdale
Brewery.
I started going to thoseLauderdale Brewery meetings,
learned how to homebrew, boughtbasic equipment here and there,
learned how to homebrew, boughtbasic equipment here and there,
and I was homebrewing at home,literally like once a month,
making few batches, trying tounderstand the process as a
(11:13):
scientist, trying to change hereand there to see what happened.
So I was just homebrew, butit's, in my opinion, since that
time it was too much work.
It's cool, it's nice.
To my opinion, since that timewas too much work.
It's cool, it's nice to haveyour product, but I was living
across the street from a pub.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I don't need to make my own beer.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I only have so much free time Exactly, I can just go
over there, spend a few bucksand get beer.
Yeah, it's cheaper.
At the time it was cheaper andeverything.
So I'm like, yeah, I'll do fora hobby when I have time.
It was nothing that I was.
I was like really investingtime or buying expensive
equipment, it was just for fun.
Yeah, and I was actuallyproducing some decent beers.
(11:54):
Get some medals.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
That was pretty cool at the time, but you had done it
enough.
Where, if you run into someoneat a bar and they're like, oh my
gosh, I need someone to helpwith this brewery and run a lab,
you're like well, I knew, Iknew on the lab side more than
the brewery.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
I never at that time I just visit a few breweries and
I didn't know how scale works.
Yeah, I was like, okay, I knowhow to make wort.
Wort goes to tanks, ferment andbecome beer.
Cool, uh, what is a heatexchange?
I have no idea.
I was cooling my beer with ice,so nice.
Now I know this equipment, allthese pumps.
(12:30):
How a pump works?
I have no idea.
I'm not an engineer, I'm abiologist.
I have no idea how a pump worksTo this day.
Some pumps I have no idea howit works, but it was like some
pumps.
People are like, oh, I havethis differential pressure
bubble up pump.
I'm like cool, I have no ideahow that works.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Don't ask me any questions, but it sounds great.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
After 10 years in the industry, still with equipment,
I have no idea how someequipment works.
Yeah, and then, yeah, I knew alittle bit.
I knew the basics, I knew thescale works, I knew the scale
works and I saw shades at thetime as opportunity to learn, to
invest time and a possibilityto grow.
(13:10):
But also building up the labshowed me that, so many other
phases of the industry that Inever thought about how to grow
yeast, how to cop yeast, how toselect some strengths, how to
avoid, avoid problems, becauseagain was she's having problems
at that time.
So over there and like, okay,let's swap every single part of
(13:34):
the process and grow and seewhere the problem is.
And then we swap hoses, tanksinside the tanks, inside of
valves, every piece of equipmentthe world could touch, until we
found a problem.
And then what was the problem?
Pediococcus.
So pediococcus, it's a bacteria, sorry, yeah, so, yeah, so it
(13:58):
was pediococcus in the heatexchange, which is a very common
thing.
We just fix, change theprocedures.
And at that time we were like,okay, now, which is a very
common thing, we just fix,change procedures.
And at that time we're like,okay, now it's fixed, just let's
keep clean and keep testing.
So that's how I enter in theindustry.
Yeah, the Habakama Brewery isanother story.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Because my curiosity is because my ignorance says oh,
you've been studying biology,you've been doing I mean
scientific experiments to someextent, which I mean brewing is
a scientific experiment.
I mean how much of yourknowledge of biology?
Because, again, you're stillworking with like a live yeast
and creating a, I mean thechemistry like of how this
(14:42):
reaction happens.
But how comfortable were you inthis specific type of reaction,
brewing process compared towhat you've been doing in a lab
in such an educational context?
Speaker 1 (14:53):
So in Brazil I was working with cell biology, but
very focused in genetics.
Okay, so more DNA and a fewproteins specific for muscle
formation.
So it was a very differenttopic.
But during graduation and mymaster, you have a lot of
classes.
One of the classes that I lovedthe most was metabolism and
(15:17):
fermentation.
It's there, it's metabolism,right.
So get the knowledge and justtranslate that.
It's one-to-one, it's easy.
Um, the thing is east makes beer, brewers make wort, brewers
extract sugar.
Yes, who makes sugar becomebeer?
It's east got it.
(15:38):
So there's a.
That's the very famous sayingbrewers make work, east makes
beer.
Yes, so I know who makes beerEast.
So I know that.
I know the process, I know thefermentation.
So, okay, now how can I applythis to the industry?
Okay, I know the process.
I know how this sugar becomesCO2 and alcohol.
(15:59):
How can I get this processbetter?
Because it's not just alcoholand CO2.
There's a lot of flavorsinvolved there, good flavors and
off flavors.
So butter, you don't want tobutter your beer, few styles
maybe, but usually you don'twant that taste of butter.
But in that squash, popcorn,butter in your beer.
(16:21):
That can be produced by theyeast.
Actually, it is produced by theyeast all the time, but at the
end of fermentation yeastcollects that back and removes
that from the beer.
If you don't let the timehappen, that will be on your
product.
So, knowing that process, youunderstanding the process and
(16:44):
how the pathway works, you knowyou have to wait.
You know how to measure, youknow how to prevent that habit.
So that is the translationbetween science lab to the beer.
You know the process, you knowwhat I have to do.
Just do it and that beneficialto that it's knowing and
applying the ignorance oravoiding knowing the process
(17:08):
will generate bad beer.
So just a matter of knowing,understanding, that would be
fine.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, especially once , because I always assumed that
you would have again through allof your getting your master's
and working in labs and goingthrough the scientific process
enough that you can again tastethis new process and be like,
okay, I can figure this out,like I speak the language.
This is just a different kindof dialect, and so you can do
that.
(17:33):
And then also, I'm sure it'sfun to be like cool, now that I
know this process, I know all ofthese inputs, I know what needs
to happen.
Now we can start to play withthese different levers and
really apply the scientificprocess.
Be like, okay if I add moreyeast at the beginning, or this
type of mosaic hop or this typeof yeast let's sit back and
watch what happens and all of asudden you have this knowledge
of all these different levers.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
To really start to have fun with it, I would assume
and impatient because at thescience level, you change one
parameter at a time, yes, andthen you analyze and how's
different from the past?
It's better, it's worse.
Okay, it's better, let's keepit.
And now let's change the secondparameter.
Don't change five things at thesame time and like, oh yeah, it
works.
Which one works?
Which one works?
(18:14):
All of them?
All of them, maybe just one.
The other four is terrible.
So all the patience, all thepatients slowly changing things,
slowly making better, and notalways going to be good.
Sometimes you're going tochange something, you're going
to go bad, like, wait, nope, goback a step, let's change a
different thing.
And that was the lab shades.
(18:40):
Teach me that how to selectyeast.
We were at that time become alittle famous from the Kvajk
strains.
That's something that in the USwas really low, or no one
actually knows that in theindustry.
And a friend of mine broughtthis strain from Lithuania.
Well, he was not in Lithuania,he was somewhere in Europe and
he found this strain and hebrought it to me and he was like
(19:01):
, hey, I love the beers withthis strain, but after three or
four weeks it goes sour.
What's going on?
I'm like give it to me, I havea lad, let's see what's going on
there.
And I spread it on a plate andyeah, some lactobacillus was
mixed on the yeast.
So I'm like, yeah, let's cleanthe lactobacillus.
So I'm like, okay, I can cleanfor you, we get the problem out.
(19:24):
But do you let me stay with alittle bit of yeast strain?
Like okay, no problem.
So I cleaned the lactobacillus,give to him back.
And now I have the yeast strainin my hand which is really good
strain and I'm like, okay, canwe prop and use this in beer?
And it was a phenomenal strainthat we used there for so many
years, give so many awards.
(19:45):
And that yeast strain was veryrevolutionary at that time
because it could ferment fasthigh temperature, producing so
much aromas, nice citrus forward, very fast fermentation, almost
no off flavors.
Everybody was freaking out.
So between probably 18 and 20that was a hype.
(20:06):
Every single brewing in in thecountry was using that strength.
Now we barely hear think aboutit.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
That's interesting that you have this.
Like, I can fix this for youand I'm gonna use it yeah, and
and was good yeah, mostimportantly, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't taste good, yeah,but it was good.
And I mean so, before you havethis conversation with shades I,
where did you see your careergoing?
I mean, I assume you didn'tthink you were going to be
brewing beer.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
No, when I got to the U working at the lab over there
was like what am I going to do?
Am I going to be here and I'lldo my PhD?
That was an option and stay atthe?
U as a researcher.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Or that was an option and stay at the us researcher
or go to the industry as aresearcher, or my sounds like
you, like you knew you wanted todo something in biology, but
like there's all these differentforks that are like I could see
them all but not really sure,and then someone's like just
come set up a lab and see how itgoes and think about this I was
was like finished, my master,fresh finished master, moved
from Brazil to Salt Lake, triedto adapt to language.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
You can clearly hear my broken English.
I barely speak English.
When I moved to here I was okayto read, because lab stuff,
science, is all in English.
So I could read, understand.
I couldn't listen too much andspeaking was terrible.
(21:30):
I try, you have to try, oryou're never going to learn.
So I was like language barrier,totally different culture,
different climate.
Think about today is like 87, 90degrees.
Think about today is like 87,90 degrees.
That's a winter in Brazil.
That's winter in Rio.
(21:50):
Rio have two seasons summer andhell.
So right now it's winter there.
It's probably like 80s.
So different climate, differentfood, different everything.
So I have to adapt.
So I was still like what am Igoing to?
Different everything.
So I have to adapt.
So I was still like what are yougonna do?
So I have to understand whatthe market looks like, what is
(22:12):
the industry?
Uh, my goals in life?
I'm gonna stay here.
You know, as immigrant, I haveto plan two, three, four years
ahead.
This process takes long.
So all this stuff, it's it wastoo much to think about one path
.
I have to have plans B, c, dand Y and Z.
(22:33):
So at that time I didn't know.
I was like, whatever, I feelthat will be a good gig, I might
jump into it and see whathappens.
At the time I was probably intoit and see what happens.
At the time I was probablygoing forward to a PhD pathway.
Got it, this opportunity came.
It was good money, it was nice.
(22:55):
It was a nice environment.
Heroes is fun, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
And when they talked to you about it, did it feel, I
mean, was it very much like wewant you to come full time, or
is it mostly like come solvethis problem At the time, come,
get the problem done and that'sit.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Yeah, that was the number one conversation for six,
eight months.
I remember the day of I waseverything was fine.
I was there just gettingsamples from the tanks, and that
was a Friday, and the guy thatwas running the head brewery at
the time was like hey, I'll bebrewing tomorrow.
(23:29):
I know you have Fridays,saturdays, free.
Do you want to come and brewwith me?
I'm like, yeah, I want to do it.
So I did one day one brew withhim.
That day we spent the whole daybrewing.
I was like, super cool, I lovethe idea.
Never get an offer or anything,it was just one day to brew
with him and help him.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
The Monday he put his two weeks notice.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
He's like Marzio can do it, it's fine, and then a
trader was like, okay, what am Igoing to do?
Am I going to have to go to themarket and hire people?
Or at that time, shades wasjust buy a brand new system,
(24:14):
upgrading from seven barrel twovessels very chinese, uh,
terrible brew system to a 30barrel, five vessels, four
vessels, um, auto,semi-automatic, and everything
like should I hire someone rightnow, train this for a month in
this system and then have totrain again?
Or I'll give more of thefreedom to this.
Like, okay, go learn thissystem brand new and in a month
(24:37):
it become full-time.
Well, that was the offer andI'm like, okay, let's do this.
So I kind of helped for thetransition and when the brand
new system arrived, I was fullycommitted.
I quit the?
U, become a head brewer shades.
And again, that's very rare Ihave the opportunity to run a
(24:58):
system with minimum experience.
I was with Trent for a month, amonth and a half, but I have
the desire to learn to taste andevery single batch of cake.
How can we make this better?
Let's study, let's change thisprocess, let's change this mold,
let's talk to people.
And at that time I people inthe industry, which is it's
(25:22):
amazing industry everybody helpseach other.
Yeah, um, I cannot be thankfulfor so many good people in this
industry, in this town that like, okay, you're doing this wrong,
fix this way.
Or you want to improve, usethis malt, use these hops, don't
do this, don't do that.
So that was easy way for me tostep up, get better knowledge
(25:46):
and in less than four months wewere fully brewing like turn and
burn all the time on the newsystem with a great team.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
We have a great people over there, and so I mean
, while you were there, I meanwhat are some of the highlights
of the beers that you were ableto make?
Or I mean some of those, I meanbest moment or best memories
from Shades.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
When we started making some sour beers.
That was the funny thing.
We did one batch with the oldsystem just to test if it could
make a sour beer, and it wasterrible.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
What's the biggest difference between brewing a
sour beer versus brewing otherthings we were doing?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
a kettle sour, which we call easy, fast sour.
It's going to be very nocomplex, low complexity.
You're going to be a beerthat's going to be just sour
with lactic sour.
You're going to be a beerthat's going to be just sour
with, like, lactic sour.
So you're going to have thatlactic acid taste and basically
that's it.
You're not going to have a lotof complexity like other long
(26:45):
time bar age sours or flandersand some styles are going to
have barrel, multiple types oforganisms that will add
complexity to that flavor.
We're talking about simplelactic acid sour made from
lactobacillus.
So lactobacillus will get thewort.
You finish the beer instead ofsending the wort to the tank,
(27:06):
you pitch lactobacillus andovernight that will drop the pH
and will become sour.
Then after that you fermentlike a normal beer and you have
a sour beer.
Okay, usually sour beers justbase sour beers are boring most
of the times a lot of defects,so you're going to see a lot of
that being fruited or spiced orother things.
(27:27):
Shields is known for a lot ofdifferent things, so at that
time we make one with the oldsystem Terrible, terrible, it
was meaty, it was terrible.
And then we fruited.
And then what is the cheapestfruit available was plum.
So okay, let's buy a drum ofplum, throw over there and see
if we can save this.
(27:48):
And after re-fermenting, allthat meaty flavor went away.
The beer was kind of likecrispy, nice, dry, fruity,
refreshing.
It was a summer, like, okay,maybe this can become something
good.
Fast forward.
A year and a half later we werebeing tanks full, basically that
week that you don't haveanything to brew, and this one
(28:10):
tank that was about to get empty.
Nothing really in the schedule.
I'm like oh, I'm going to makea sour beer, let's put a sour
beer there and let's fermentwith the Kavak strain that we
cleaned up.
Let's see how that goes.
We make a small batch, 15barrels, and I was like and I
want to dry hop that with aNelson Savant.
It's a hop that it's reallynice, grapey, like a lot of
(28:34):
grape flavors, of Yon Blanc kindof flavor.
Okay, let's try Hoppip Den andsee how that beer turns out.
And then that beer turns outreally really good, like good.
And that was the second medalof shades in Idaho Falls we got
a medal for sour beer.
I'm like, oh, this beer has afuture, people like it, not a
(28:55):
lot of defects.
So let's refine that, let'smake that better.
Then we run a big batch anddivide that in three small
batches, and one we just dryhopped.
One single fruited, I think itwas just cherry or something
like that.
And the third one I'm going togo crazy.
I throw lactose pineapple,guava think, and it was kind of
(29:20):
like one, two and three.
We named that way and it was sogood and sold out really fast
and everywhere people weretalking about drinking those
beers.
Hey, so that was the start ofthose sour crazy things.
The lactose trend that weintroduced so much lactose in
those beers because we'resouring but we have nothing to
(29:42):
back sweet with, so lactose gaveus that balance.
And the fruits were alltropical, so good.
So we'll say, if any tropicalfruit, oh, so good, so good.
And then we become a trend.
So all kvikes started gettingnumbers, to a point that we
started losing which one is whoa.
Five was dry hop.
No.
Seven was dry hop.
(30:03):
Eight was okay.
We started naming the thing,because we cannot keep number,
so we started naming, naming andthen we have the 2020.
It was February, we're planningbecause summer was coming.
So that dry hopped one won theJBF in 2019 gold medal.
(30:23):
So like, okay, we know we'remaking good stuff, we got gold
at JBF, so let's bump, let'sbrew 90 barrels of that beer
because that beer is going tofly.
Let's prepare, summer is coming, let's start brewing that in
February.
90 barrels, dynamic, dynamic,shut down everything.
(30:46):
Oh, like, okay, liquor storesare shut down.
We have 90 barrel this beeralmost right in the tank.
Like start fermenting two,three days ago.
We're like what are we gonna dowith this amount of work?
So, on that meantime that we'relike thinking what to do
earthquake, so okay, shit, okay,uh, disaster is coming, so
(31:06):
pandemic earthquake.
What's the next plague?
So we're talking aboutapocalypse here.
Yeah, and my uh aj was my bro'sassistant.
He's like the four horsemen ofapocalypse.
Let's call four beers, fourlike plague, yes, hinger,
whatever is the fourth thing.
And they're like, oh, thatmight be too much, people are
(31:27):
dying for this text.
So let's just let's call ahurricane, earthquake, season or
series, whatever which we namedafter, like aftershock,
shockwave, that was the name.
And we divide the 90 barrelsinto 615 barrels, thanks, and
fruit it differently and releaseonce a week.
(31:47):
Wow, so okay, once a week wehave a new flavor in cans.
Only because we're closedpandemic, so it's to-go only
Thursdays.
Come and get it, and if it'sdone, it's done.
Go only, uh, thursdays comingat it, and if it's done, it's
done.
We're not brewing again.
We'll start getting lines andselling out one day.
So that was the train when.
So okay, now we have to makeone beer a week.
(32:09):
Yeah, now you set thatexpectation.
Yeah, and that happens foralmost 18 months.
Wow, we, in 2020, we produce 59different beers.
In 2021, we produce, I think,65 or 70 different beers.
That's insane.
We have one a week.
And then we have the 10thanniversary, which we put 10
collaborations, like releasingtwo a week, yeah.
(32:32):
And then we're like creating somuch, and that was the nice
thing, we have freedom.
So we also like creating somuch, and that was the nice
thing, we have freedom.
So, like every four months,five months, we have all people
together from the brewery,production, sales team,
marketing team.
Okay, I want flavors.
I don't care, give me flavors.
And we started writing theboard.
Okay, we have categories Pie.
(32:54):
So lactose, graham, cracker,panela, cinnamon what else?
Cherry pie, strawberry bar pie,let's go.
And they started writing theboard every crazy ideas.
I don't care if it's crazy,good, let's go Now.
I want a fruit combinations westart giving.
Now I want a crazy combinations.
(33:14):
I don't care if you think thisis insane, it tastes like awful.
Give me the ideas, we will makethis happen.
And we have those jalapenopoppers yeah, so bacon, cream
cheese and jalapeno spaghetti,yep, and I've had the spaghetti,
tomato, basil, cilantro andoregano.
(33:35):
Some like okay, some like okay,pms pecan pie.
So, like all of those ideas.
Some go more towards the sourside.
Yeah, some we didn't sour andmake it as a cream ale.
And some went to a new base.
That was a uh dessert, uh, soit was like an inquiry style
(33:56):
base.
So we have these three and theystart running all those kind of
flavors.
So that was when we did allthose crazy flavors.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Wow, I mean that's crazy to think of All right,
every week.
We need something new.
We now have this system thatcan support it, but then also
being like, hey guys, we'rerunning out of ideas.
Just tell us, just keep going,keep going.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Nothing's off the table If it happens sometime
like, okay, we're damn, we don'thave a way to make this happen.
Well, what was the mostsuccessful last year?
Key lime pie, bring it back.
Another one Strawberry berrypie, bring it back.
Bloody Mary, bring it back.
So it's something like that oh,bring it back, bloody Mary,
bring it back.
So it's something like that.
Oh, the jalapeno pineapplepickle jalapeno pineapple, bring
(34:40):
it back.
Yeah, so stuff like that wassuccessful.
Yeah, bring it back.
Then we don't have people whostill want it to go too crazy.
But why not so?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
it's interesting.
So you have this experiencewhere you're like I brew beer at
home takes too much time.
I'm good you have thisopportunity.
You have so much fun with it inturn.
I mean again, like thispandemic and earthquake and like
windstorm into like we're justgoing to make a new brew every
week.
I mean, and talk me through howyou go from this world of beer
(35:09):
to then transition to cider.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
So that was June 21,.
Great year, all right.
Then stress of other thingsstarted coming through.
So we started seeing multiplebreweries going out of business.
Even after pandemic you sawthat recover and then breweries
going out of business.
It started stressing me outPrices going up, inflation, and
(35:35):
it was hard for us to try not topass it to consumer.
But every time you pass aconsumer you have a backslash,
yeah, back splash, a backlash,sorry.
And then we're like, okay, thatstress are building up in my
mind.
Uh, at the same time I saw thewhole innovation.
(35:56):
Every beer every week started todie out.
People like, okay, I, I tryeverything.
Pretty cool.
Now let me go back to myeveryday beer.
And that was not an everydaybeer.
It's not beer.
You could pound four or five.
That was the idea.
To drink share one can.
Now everybody want to drinkfour or five of the same.
Those beer were going down.
(36:17):
I saw that.
I saw the trend.
I talked around a few peoplelike industry gonna suffer for a
while.
Packaged beer is gonna go downheavily and I started stressing
too much I.
I started seeing things notgoing well for the next two or
(36:39):
three years.
That was one thing that startedkeeping me awake multiple days
a week and that stress wasbuilding up so strong that I
needed to change pace.
That was unexpected.
Sida was not in my radar at all.
I was looking for changeenvironment, change pace and
(37:03):
maybe even changing industry.
I even talked to people.
To go back to the biologicalscience.
I have friends that work at thetime.
It was BioFire, biomedia.
I'm like, hey, come on, comework with me, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like maybe let's see howthings are going to go.
(37:25):
So on my mind I was on that tryto change environment, try to
change pace.
That was on building up in mymind.
On the background I was notactive, applying, I was not
active.
Like looking for was not active, looking for jobs.
That was just in my mind.
And then that starts aboutFebruary, march.
(37:45):
In April, world Beer Cup I wentto Minneapolis.
We got three medals.
That was the top of my career.
That it's the most importantcompetition in the world for
beer.
We got three medals all in sourbeers, all in those crazy
creations.
We're so happy.
(38:05):
I come back home like, okay, Ithink this can give me more time
on this industry.
And as soon as I get home, thenext day I went to work.
I felt even harder to go towork, like that's, yeah, I
thought this will give me a bumpand actually put more pressure
on me and I was not feeling atall.
(38:28):
And then at the same week Ihave a friend in the industry
who was covering for the formercider maker at mount west.
So he laughed about that timeand she was covering for him.
Like as much she could she wentthere, put side in the tank
when she could, she went therefilter, but things getting
(38:50):
behind the mount west.
And I called her one day and Istarted like talking to her
about how unhappy I was, how Ineed a change of pace, and she's
like, hey, do you know?
My wife's looking for a cidermaker.
I'm like, cider, what?
What is cider?
I not even knew.
I haven't even drink cider.
Yeah, well, let me correct, Ididn't know.
(39:11):
I haven't drink cider becausein Brazil we drink cider since
we were kids, but in Brazil it'smarketed as poor people.
Sparkling wine oh, interesting,but it's cider.
It says cider on the bottle butnobody knows what cider is in
Brazil.
So what happens is people thinkit's just a cheap bottle of
(39:33):
sparkling wine.
Yeah, and I drink that stillstand because that is a very
normal thing to drink on thechristmas in brazil.
So everybody that grow up in apoor family, when you go about
december the shelves are full ofthat and talk about a buck,
buck feet the bottle.
Wow, so people buy that a lotbecause sparkly pop, it has a
(39:55):
corking cage, it looks nice, soeverybody has that Because it's
cheap.
And you think they're drinkingbeer or wine.
They're actually drinking cider.
So I didn't know.
And then I was like, oh, Idrink that cider in Brazil, but
I never drink cider here.
She's like oh, they are lookingfor how about you text them?
(40:15):
It would be a nice change ofpace.
It would be a nice change ofenvironment, different industry.
But how much work is that?
How is the workload?
It's not like beer.
You don't have to brew everyday Because, as my wife says,
it's an urban society.
So we buy juice, so juice comesto us.
(40:38):
So all the process ofextracting sugar that takes you
eight hours a day in a brewerycomes in a tote.
You just have to pump that inthe tank.
Yeah, so the everyday hard laboron the brewery side that
breweries have to make, thatdoes exist inside All the cellar
(40:58):
side.
That's also heavy in beer isthe same inside.
So at the end, process,everyday work, is the same load
as a cider maker, as a cellarmaker, a cellar man in the
brewery.
So those two jobs are verysimilar.
The bigger difference will beselecting your juice.
How are you going to approachyour juice?
(41:19):
Which varieties are you goingto use?
How are you going to fermentEasy strain?
So that comes to deciding, tomake decisions.
So that umbrella of work it'sdifferent, it's more specialized
, but every day it's verysimilar to a cellar man.
So she explained that to me.
I'm like oh, I can do that.
How many employees?
Just you and the production.
(41:41):
I'm like well, I love people,but just me.
I can make my own time Soundskind of nice, so I text them.
I'm like, hey, jen, jeff, youguys looking for a setting maker
?
I am looking, well, I'm notexpecting you here, but yeah,
(42:02):
let's talk.
So we started interview, set,all the the conversation, and
then I put my mouth uh, notice,because I don't want to leave.
At the time the guy's hangingdry, so like, hey, I'm gonna
leave.
Sorry, thank you for theopportunity.
Thank you for all.
I think it was a nice both ways.
Uh, you guys give meopportunity, but also I
(42:25):
delivered as much as I could.
Yeah, so it was a good.
It was a nice, friendlytransition.
I still talk to them all thetime.
So it was really nice, friendlytransition.
And I started on my ass aboutthree years, in three days and
yeah, and then cider was adifferent world and Scion.
(42:49):
Here there's a bar in town thatfell on one of the best in the
country, literally one of thebest cider bars in the country.
It's really rare to go to acity and find so many examples
of ciders in one single bar,which is wild because that's
something that happens a lot inUtah.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Which is wild, Like obviously there's issues of why
it isn't a very alcohol friendlystate, but then it's like we
have so many great breweries andso many great distilleries and
so many great cideries.
It like doesn't make sense, butI'm glad that it does.
I think it's that because ofthe repression.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Yep, when you want to do something, you cannot do a
half-ass.
Yeah, you have to do that fullboard, with all your passion and
make it the best, because thenyou can break down those
barriers of the state imposed toyou or the weird laws.
Also, the way people look atyou when you say, oh, sometimes
(43:43):
like, oh, I work in the alcoholindustry, you have the looks.
Yeah, for the good or for thebad, you have both.
There's a nice experiment runin some place where people it's
a room with a thousand people,all different occupations, and
the person stand up like I am anengineer.
(44:03):
How many people look at thatperson is how much that
occupation is interesting.
The number two, the top two, isbrewmaster or alcohol industry
and astronaut.
So that is the top two.
More, uh, attentions, people.
So it's really cool, prettygood for the bed, right, right.
So I went to Sion like real, Ineed to learn everything about
(44:28):
cider and I have a month Like,okay, come here, let's drink,
let's talk.
So it was a month of transition.
Then I was working shades inthe morning, leaving.
Go to Sion, drink two or threeciders, learn.
Go to Moes helping them.
Help the LA Lauren I can't sayher name.
Help Lauren to filter or dosomething so I can learn as well
(44:50):
.
So it was a month of doing thisevery day until I become
full-time there and then I waslike, okay, I actually like
cider, it's an interestingbeverage.
So I started slowly learningmore.
There's a meeting like CBC CraftBrewers Conference.
(45:11):
There's a cider con hey, forcider.
Yeah, which is so nice.
It's a smaller meeting than CBCand you have the same type
people.
So you're going to see the beernerds the brewers are the cider
makers.
You're going to see the me.
So you're going to see the beernerds, the brewers or the cider
makers.
You're going to see the meager.
You're going to see theconnoisseurs.
You're going to see all thosekind of people.
But the cider con has one moretype of people the farmers.
(45:36):
Yeah, because in a sense, theguy that take care of the farm
and grow the apples.
Most of the times he's thecider maker.
So you have the farmers there.
You don't see a barley growerat the CBC.
You barely see hop growers,barley growers.
You don't see that.
You see the seller peopleselling the barley, selling the
hops.
But the grower, the farmers,the guy, that's everyday labor.
(45:57):
You don't see them At a silicon.
You see, you talk to thembecause it makes a difference
when he fertilized the.
The.
The crop will determine ifyou're gonna be a sweeter or not
on the cider how, how levelsweetness?
Because the nitrogen you gottaimpact.
So you have so much detailsthat you never pay attention.
(46:17):
In beer there's so manyvariables.
In cider apple, it's your mainthing, so the farmer is
extremely important.
So that was a blow blow my mind.
I was like, okay, I want tolearn more about this.
I I was so passionate aboutwhen I went there.
I'm like I want more, I want tolearn more, please.
And that was my first idcon in2023, chicago, uh, 24 was in in.
(46:43):
And this year I got ascholarship to go to the Chicago
again and not only to be therebut also be part of the American
Science Association and to dothe test of sommelier.
Which is the sommelier?
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, so I was talking with Sharon about it and
she was talking about how yougot this certification.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So that was because the scholarship was able to go
and fully supported the mom andI team like, okay, go study,
let's go and taste.
Insiders all over the worldidentify our flavors that are
different, not only differentfrom beer, but also different
from how you explain that andhow you verbalize.
These terms are different fromwine, cider and beer.
(47:31):
So we have to understand thoseterms and now change your mind
to those terms.
So cider is different, is verydifferent and unique and it's
more detailed than beer.
I believe that when it comes tofinding the taste, finding the
tune, taste, everyday operationinsider is more laid back
(47:53):
because at the end we're gonnafilter it.
We're gonna kind of filter,sterile filter.
So if there's a small chance ofsmall contamination in the tank
, no big deal because we usekilling yeast.
The yeast is going to grow toomuch, going to kill the other
yeast, so that will prevail, wedon't have to worry about.
(48:14):
And then when you filter thatis going to go away.
So we have more ways to goaround than beer.
But when it comes to finalproduct cider, it's more
detailed.
You have more complexity thanfew styles of beer.
So it also comes to.
(48:35):
You can taste differencebetween an apple that grows in
Michigan versus the one thatgrows in Washington, because
there's one thing called the roi, and the soil would different,
the sunlight would be different,the fertilization will be
different.
Also, they're gonna press indifferent press.
If you use a press that willextract a harsh, you're gonna
(48:57):
introduce co2, or the old co2that is already completely
different of the juice.
Now it's selection time,temperature.
How are you going to that sweet, not that sweet.
It's going to be dry, stillsparkling.
Are you going to be in a 750 mlbottle?
Are you going to be in a can?
So much difference for onesimple apple.
(49:18):
Yeah, and that was whatfascinates me.
And I even started talkingabout pairing, pairing cider
with food.
It's another world.
And sometimes you're like, okay, I go to a dinner, oh, we're
going to pair this pork chopwith this beer.
I'm like I wish it was cider.
Yeah, so for me it's gettingmore passion.
(49:43):
It's not more, it's different.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah, it's a different type of passion,
especially when you had goingfrom this situation where you're
like, oh, I learned a lot, Idid a lot, but like something's
off, I need change, I need to gosomewhere else, and then have
this opportunity again come toyou and be like, oh wait, this
is refreshing, this is a newthing to tackle, there are these
new nuances and really findthis like harmony in it.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Let's learn, and that was my passion is always
learning.
As a scientist, like I want tolearn, I want to tweak, I want
to bake better, I want tounderstand the process.
And now that I understand theprocess, I know how it works,
how can they make it better ordifferent.
So my one I know how it works,how can they make it better or
different.
So Mountain West was oppositefor Shades.
(50:26):
So Shades was at the time verynormal classic beers and they
bring all this crazy MountainWest, if you go there before me
it was already some differenttype of ciders and now I'm
trying to make more classicstuff.
So it's a little differentbecause it's how the company,
(50:52):
it's, it's, it's on the track,not, but it never left my crazy
side.
Of course, if you go thereright now, there's a bloody mary
cider on draft.
Yeah, why not?
It's, it's cider is a bloodymary and it's alcoholic bloody
mary already on draft.
So if you want to add anothershot of vodka, for example, it
will be the most alcoholicbloody m in Utah.
Why not?
Because it's my creativity, letme do it.
So let's do it At the same time.
I want to do the classics.
I want to do the slowfermentation, single varietal.
(51:14):
If I can get late harvest, lowfertilizer apples, I want that
juice.
I want that juice to fermentvery slow, do six months
fermentation.
Then a nice, non-filteredbottle, 750 ml, corking cage,
classic, beautiful.
At the same time I want tothrow on we make a negroni para
(51:40):
aged gin cider with vermouth, uhand and um beaters.
So why not?
Yeah, making all kind of things, but cider has this flexibility
and for me, very similar to thesour beer.
Then it pairs well with fruits,it pair well with spices.
(52:01):
It can go crazy, it can goclassic.
So it's so complex, and why not?
Speaker 2 (52:07):
let's, let's play around yeah, might as well have
fun with it.
Yeah, yeah, that's.
It's so fun to hear like thewhole journey of it all, of how
I mean everything just kind ofworked out and now you find this
next adventure.
That's again like plays to thatscientific nature of you being
like just giving a new process.
I want to learn something, Iwant to refine it, I want to
pull on these levers and reallyjust grow.
(52:29):
Um, and especially the pointwhere you're like, yeah, I'll go
get my accreditation to tolearn even more.
And then, but there's alsostill you're like, but I'm gonna
do a bloody mary cider and I'mgonna do that like we're you
still gonna have fun and playwith that.
The.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Pameli was a nice journey.
We were all studying together,a few people to try to get a
test.
So it's a studying process.
We have to learn all the theory.
So learn not only how to make acider, but the process is
growing.
So we have a lot of orchardknowledge that has to be evolved
(53:02):
.
You have to have pairing a lotof orchard knowledge that has to
be evolved.
It has to have pairing, a lotof pairing.
So how to pair studies withfood, with chocolate, with
desserts, stuff like that.
And then also the tasting.
And that taste was the fun part, because it's a 750 ml bottle.
I'm going to open that and drink.
All by myself, I will get tothe end of the third bottle.
I'm not going to be able tofinish my study of the day.
(53:25):
Yes, so we should do it in agroup of 10, 7, 5 people.
We can go through 7, 10 ciderson that day and study nicely.
So we partnered with Matt Ostrud.
Matt, his last name I cannotpronounce, but Matt is the first
pommelier in Utah.
(53:46):
Okay, matt, his last name Icannot pronounce, but Matt is
the first Pommelier in Utah.
Okay, it's partnered with Sion.
Okay, me, him, rio, erica andthen a few people in my house we
all sit down and start studyingfor the test and that was the
best part, because we all sittogether against Matt's notes,
because he's a pommelier, yeah,we have to get close to what
he's writing.
(54:06):
So it was the fine-tuning likeweeks before the test and we all
went to chicago do the test andeverybody that studied together
the tasting we all pass.
That's amazing.
That was super cool, um, butit's well, that was phenomenal.
So everybody's studyingtogether.
We got the certificationtogether.
(54:28):
It was super cool no, that'sawesome.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
You guys could do it as a team as well, I mean, which
makes it more fun, because,again, if you're drinking alone
then it's not.
I mean you can't do as much,but then it's also not as fun to
like, compare and share andtalk, and I mean alcohol brings
people together.
I mean it's a social beverageand so if it's not bringing
people together, it's gotta be.
I can't imagine be the sameexperience if it wasn't done
that well or done that way allright, it'll be solitary, it'll
(54:51):
be probably alcoholic, not thatreally want um.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
For people that don't know about cider, uh, you
should be aware of styles.
So there's, cider is not juststrong, bullying or orchard
sweet stuff.
Nice, there's probably morethan 25 styles of cider Fruited,
botanical, high tannin, highacid, low tannin, low acid,
(55:17):
sweet, sparkling, flat.
It can be funk, it can be clean, it can be a very nice
expression of the single applePears.
So many styles of pears I'llmake with pears Culinary pears,
tanic pears, singletree pears,and then other we call fortified
(55:38):
ones, so ice ciders, pomo Pomois a beverage that I never heard
about that and most of thepeople have no idea what pomo is
.
Pomo is equivalent of port winefor cider.
Okay, so it's a fortified ciderusing apple brandy.
(55:59):
So apple brandy and starting'mstarting fermenting cider, so
basically apple juice.
But then it's not just a mix.
You have to age that months oryears in barrels.
So that's a beverage that is sogood, it's growing Finally
people started getting hands onand it's so, so good that people
(56:19):
should start drinking morePomo's.
Speaker 2 (56:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
And again, it's a new industry that's growing.
Luckily, it's the only I thinkit's the only alcoholic category
that's still growing in the US.
Everything else is kind ofstatic or going down.
It's a new generation, gen Z iscoming Low alcohol consumption,
more cannabis product beingconsumed we got it, it's a trend
(56:43):
.
But more cannabis product beingconsumed we got it, it's a
trend.
But it's always like thisYou're always going to have one
or two generations that will below and then a few years later
they will find out that, hey, Imiss all those years not
drinking this product, so let'sstart drinking those products
again.
It's just a phase.
I know that what's either isthere is here to stay.
(57:03):
It's a gluten-free, naturallygluten-free product.
It's usually the dry ones thatwe made in Mountain West.
It's low calorie.
This is zero sugar, so, yeah,it's a really good beverage.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
More people should try it, and I mean I love going
to Mountain West.
I mean sitting at the gardenthere's usually always live
music or something going on,especially in the summer.
I mean perfect night.
I mean sometimes I'll Uber Eatsfood in, sometimes I'll have a
food truck, sometimes I'll breeda board game or something and
we're going to start having food.
That's right this week.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Even more reason.
Yeah, we're going to have asandwich and other like small,
like a small bites.
That's being uh craft by chefsright now.
So it's it's going to evenmatter the garden.
It's phenomenal.
I love the vibe that that thatoutdoor space, uh, concerts, as
you said, all the time, uh, yarn, it's been a very successful.
So people go there to tellstories.
(57:57):
It's really cool.
It just go there to hearstories like this for 10 minutes
, 5 minutes, and you can know alot of people because they bring
touchy, very funny stories.
So you can meet so many people.
So all these events are beingheld over there, bringing life
(58:18):
to that part of the city that'sa little forgotten.
Yeah, put it this way,marmalade District is growing,
but it's still a lot to bediscovered.
And Moet's there.
He's been there forgotten.
Yeah, put it this way,marmalade District's growing,
but it's still alive to bediscovered.
And Moet's there.
It's been there for 10 years.
It's going to be ouranniversary this year of 10
years, so there's a lot ofspecial things that we're
bringing in.
So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:37):
Come swing by, have a ruby, have a Bloody Mary cider,
have whatever tickles yourfancy.
There's always going to be someclassics that we've talked
about, some fun things we'vetalked about, and who knows what
else is to come.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Just one thing I want to bring up.
We talk about a small city.
I love the one thing that Petefrom City Weekly was telling the
story that he was in Greece ayear ago and he was with his
family and he was in theelevator and he's talking to his
brother, I think and he heardsomeone on the back of the
(59:12):
elevator say, oh, finallyEnglish, I can talk to someone
in English.
Where are you guys from?
And he's like I'm from SaltLake City.
And this guy like oh, I'mPortland, but I know one person
from Salt Lake City, a buffaloLike no way, I'm in Greece in
the middle of nowhere.
And this guy that I meet theonly English I've been listening
(59:32):
for the past three weeks is aguy from Portland that knows you
.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
The one person he knows in Utah, and I often don't
know either person I know InSalt Lake City.
Oh, even in Greece.
It happens everywhere.
That's even in Greece.
It happens everywhere.
That's amazing, marcio.
I want to end with the twoquestions I always ask everybody
at the end of each episode.
Number one if you could havesomeone on the Small Lake City
podcast and hear more abouttheir story and what they're up
to, who would you want to hearfrom?
Speaker 1 (59:56):
one person can bring a few you can name a couple.
Of course, I would like to seethe guys that start brewing
industry here.
So there's a few people that,like Dale from Beehive Tampling
yeah For sure it's a good name Afew people in the industry that
(01:00:19):
brought things live to thisarea.
But also there is a guy.
It's going to be hard probably,but we have a Nobel Prize, a
Nobel Prize in Salt Lake.
Yeah, that would be phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
I got to hurry on that one.
Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Yes you have to hurry that.
For sure I have with him a fewtimes.
It's a really great story ofhow he comes to Salt Lake and
how he developed a whole geneticfield that changed the world
and how he got a Nobel Prizeworking in Utah, at Salt Lake.
He lives here, he lives in theavenues, he loves the city.
(01:01:00):
He's already on this almost 90s, so yeah hurry up yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Time's not in my favor, nor his, but we'll, yeah,
we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
Yeah, him would be really cool to bring in.
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Totally.
And then lastly, if people wantto find out more information
about Mountain West or see whatciders are coming up what's the
best place?
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
social media, so mount west cider or mount west
hard cider, so mount west ciderfor our instagram, facebook and
uh website.
Our website just totally new,launched today, oh cool, so
updated, ready to go events andeverything.
So social media is the bestplace.
Or stop by 425 north, 400 Westin the Marmalade District where
(01:01:45):
their garden's open.
We have the new roof, new roomin the front.
Even for this heat, if thegarden is too hot, don't worry,
we have the sunroof, it's in thefront.
Right now it's 69 degrees.
It's really good yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Cold air-conditioned room.
Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Maybe freeze a room cider Exactly cold air
conditioned room, maybe for hisown cider, exactly, but stop by,
or our website, and yeah thanksfor having me.
Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
No, thank you, marcio .
It's been fun, to fun to hearyour story and hear more about
how you got there and I mean thewhole journey across the way.
But yeah, I will be.
I guess I will be there soonbecause there's an event we're
doing with Bookish on, I thinkit's like August 19th.
I'll have to look.
Anyway, if you're listening tothis, check Instagram, I'll tell
you there.
But no, I mean, this has beengreat.
Thank you so much.
Keep making classic ciders,keep making fun ciders, and who
(01:02:31):
knows what alcoholic beverageyou'll end up in next.
Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
Go make some whiskey, some wines and something who
knows we're going to of winelast year.
So look for the cans SummitWine.
It's Mount West.
Okay, sparkling Rosé, sparklingBrut, and the whole bottles of
the Mount West Cellar.
Yeah, we have a full line ofwine now there we go, you're
already doing wine.
So now what?
Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Sake next who knows.
I don't think there's anyonedoing that anyway, oh yeah there
is, there's one sake, sake,suki.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Oh yeah, you're right , she's.
Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
They're making really good sake utah never ceases to
amaze me.
There's always something,there's always something I don't
know about happening.
Uh yeah, no thanks, bernard,that was a stick here, so good.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.