October 20, 2025 • 48 mins
What if your divorce didn’t feel like a war but a turning point? We sit down with attorney Nonie Ferguson, founder of Law Elevated in Park City, to unpack a people-first approach to family law that prioritizes mental health, clarity, and durable outcomes over courtroom theatrics. Nonie shares how years as a South Florida public defender sharpened her litigation instincts—evidence, objections, narrative—while also teaching her that legal victories mean little if clients walk away shattered.
We talk through the nuts and bolts of a holistic model: pairing legal strategy with therapy, financial planning, and co-parenting tools so clients make calm decisions under pressure. Nonie explains why the “bulldog lawyer” myth often raises costs and conflict, and how firm, persuasive advocacy can achieve better results without burning the bridge you’ll need for years of co-parenting. When cases must go to court, her trial background becomes an advantage; when they don’t, problem-solving and clear communication keep families out of the fire.
Utah’s landscape adds a unique twist—early marriages, early divorces, quick remarriages, and blended families with intricate schedules and shifting loyalties. We explore why retribution rarely delivers closure, how to set boundaries that stick, and what judges actually find credible. Along the way, Nonie reveals how Law Elevated dropped the obsession with billable-hour quotas to build real relationships and deliver steadier outcomes. If you’re navigating separation, considering mediation, or preparing for court, this conversation offers practical steps to protect your rights and your wellbeing.
Subscribe for more conversations on modern family law, mindset, and making change stick. If this resonated, share it with a friend and leave a review to help others find the show.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
What is up, everybody, and welcome back to
another episode of the SmallLake City Podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Nilsen, andthis week's guest is Noni
Ferguson, the founder of LawElevated, a family law practice
based in Park City, Utah.
Now, Noni isn't from Salt Lake,she's from South Florida, but
she moved here for Shocker, aboy.
And she has since created herown family law practice here,
(00:22):
starting a family here.
And what makes her practiceunique is it focuses on the
client themselves, their mentalhealth, what they're going
through, and a lot of thehumanity in the process, and not
just the legal ramifications orwhat they're entitled to.
Now, a great conversation withNoni.
We talk a lot about theuniqueness of Utah, what made
her want to be here, especiallywith her starting a family.
(00:42):
So let's jump into it.
Hope you enjoy it, and I'll seeyou on the other side.
Enjoy.
SPEAKER_04 (00:48):
Velvet Taco.
SPEAKER_03 (00:49):
It's like one of the, I mean, have you ever been
to shoot what's the placedowntown?
Rock taco.
In Fort Lauderdale?
No, in Saltworth.
Uh-uh.
I mean, it's like one of thoselike, flack with a better term,
like very like white tacoplaces.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
It's like, here's a fried chicken taco, or here's a
salad taco.
SPEAKER_03 (01:06):
Got it.
It's like this is one of thoseplaces.
I mean, I like it.
Like I remember the only reasonI know about it really is um
cool.
Is um if I'm talking, you wantto if not I can manage volume.
Um reason I know it's fromDallas is because I did in a
very Utah fashion summer salesdown there for a cyber in
college.
(01:26):
And every Saturday night when wewere done, we would go to this
taco place, and it was sophenomenal.
SPEAKER_04 (01:31):
And they had so in college you were going to Fort
Lauderdale too?
SPEAKER_03 (01:35):
This was sorry, this was in Dallas.
SPEAKER_04 (01:36):
Oh got it.
This is the place that it'ssimilar to.
SPEAKER_03 (01:38):
So that's where I found it.
But then when I went to FortLauderdale the first time for
work, I was like, uh-huh.
There it is.
SPEAKER_02 (01:44):
It clicked.
SPEAKER_03 (01:44):
Well, this kid.
But yeah, Fort Lauderdale isfun.
It was more fun when like when Ifirst started, it was in
February.
So I was like, great, I get toleave Utah in February to go to
Fort Lauderdale.
For sure.
It was so nice.
And then this summer when itwas, I mean, a hundred degrees
here and a hundred degreesthere, and like there is no
steeping, any sort of do youlike a cocktail every once in a
(02:05):
while or no?
Uh hard yes.
SPEAKER_04 (02:07):
Okay, well, that's a good place for it.
SPEAKER_03 (02:09):
Well, me and my boss have a joke is whenever we get
together, we'll always do um uhbaca martinis.
Uh-huh.
Because I mean in Utah you can'tget like a true martini.
SPEAKER_02 (02:19):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
And so whenever he's away, he's away from it.
Three kids is why he's likefucking it.
His name's Eric as well.
So the Eric's.
SPEAKER_04 (02:28):
Got it.
SPEAKER_03 (02:29):
But yeah, it's it's fun.
I mean, Florida's just such a Imean, you put Florida and Utah,
especially Salt Lake together.
That is a fan diagram that likevery minimal.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (02:40):
Yeah, no, there's not much overlap at all.
SPEAKER_03 (02:42):
But yeah.
Yeah, it's good.
And also it was phenomenal todrive up here because I was a
couple weeks ago, Galtri and Iwas telling you about, we I was
like, I didn't drive backthrough Guardsman.
Like, it is that time of theyear.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Yeah, it is phenomenal.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (02:56):
And then now, like it's always like that uh like
the FOMO of you're like, theseare only gonna be there for like
a week or two.
For sure.
Get out there, winter's coming.
Like, yeah, and you always havethis like FOMO of like, I'm not
getting out of if I'm notenjoying it.
SPEAKER_04 (03:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:09):
So I was like, that scratched that itch away.
SPEAKER_04 (03:11):
Yeah, it's good.
Good.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
It's already starting to fade.
So good thing you got up herewhen you did.
SPEAKER_03 (03:17):
Yeah, it's like once those reds start to turn into
more like uh muted rustic red,and you're like, oh yeah, yeah,
I'm starting to miss it.
SPEAKER_04 (03:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:24):
And because we're up in Park City, because we're your
office, but is this or do youlive up in Park City as well?
I do.
Oh, yeah.
So you can enjoy it all.
SPEAKER_04 (03:31):
Yeah.
I mean, like you though, like Iwe're really busy, so like on
the weekends when we can.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
Whatever I can tell my voice is getting dry.
SPEAKER_04 (03:43):
For sure.
SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
There's enough episodes I've recorded where
someone's voice will likeliterally just completely dry
out.
SPEAKER_03 (03:50):
Yeah.
Or I'll be listening to it backand I'll be like, can I look up
just like I could tell they needa cup of water so badly?
Yeah.
That I couldn't tell at thetime.
So I will not be a victim ofthat.
Okay, good.
Um, but law elevated.
Uh-huh.
I'm excited because I get ahandful of uh, I mean, let's
call it professional servicespeople to reach out.
And like my question back tothem is always like, Well, why
(04:13):
you?
If I'm gonna have an attorney, abanker, a you know, whatever it
might be, profession, like, whyshould it be you?
Like, is there anything you'redoing specifically?
Is there any sort of uniqueshtick or niche that you serve?
And most people are like, hey,you got me, we're just in
trouble, like patent law for I'mlike, thanks, but no, thanks.
Right.
And so when uh I can't rememberwho reached out her name, but
(04:34):
Cali probably reached out and Iwas like, all right, like let's
look at this.
Cool.
I was like, huh.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (04:41):
Because the then the reason it struck a chord with me
is as I mentioned, I was settingup like I'm divorced.
Uh-huh.
And I mean, law elevatedprimarily focuses on family law.
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (04:51):
Um, and so it's interesting with me because like
when I got divorced, very fringecase where no attorneys, no
nothing, like it's everythingwas pretty much separated to
begin with.
She has her 401k, I had mine,bank accounts, blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_04 (05:03):
So it's just like, well, like a breakup of
paperwork.
SPEAKER_03 (05:06):
Yeah.
Like, and I go through thepaperwork, I'm like, this is it.
Like, I expected to be chatchibeating the entire thing.
Yeah.
Like, yeah, so declare this,declare that, sign here, 30
days, sign that.
It's good.
And it was interesting becauselike, oh, I've seen a lot, as
most people in Utah, which we'llget to, uh, have experienced a
lot of divorce in my life.
Uh, and there's like this rangeof any people, you know, the
(05:26):
claws are out, everything is sobleak, and then there's the
other side where it's like, hey,it's just like not working
anymore.
Right.
And when I was going through myprocess and I didn't feel like I
had any resentment, anger, andstrong negative emotions, uh,
and I was processing it, I waslike, there's such a better way
because there's like this legalentitlement, but then there's
(05:46):
this part of like, hey, this isperson you used to love, this is
person that you shared so manyexperiences with.
Like, do you really want like totry A, treat them like that, B,
go after them like that?
Right.
And every client, I imagine, isso different on their approach
and what their ultimate goal is.
But yeah, I love that Lawelevated focused on a lot on
like the compassion, theempathy, the the really like the
emotional side of what's goingthrough it as well, instead of
(06:07):
just being another suit andbriefcase and the target.
SPEAKER_04 (06:11):
Yeah, agreed.
That's the goal.
That's what we're going for.
And that's like the whole vibeof the place, as you can see,
right?
It's so that people feeldifferent, they feel treated
different.
Um, you know, you're focusing onthe human versus the outcome,
maybe.
And I think that generally leadsto a better outcome when you're
(06:32):
focusing on like your clients'like emotional needs, um,
physical needs, not justeverything purely financial or
you know, maybe hate driven.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:43):
Because it's it reminds me of so I had her name,
Zalerie Craycroft or Dr.
Craycroft on the podcast a fewepisodes ago.
She was an OBGYN for her entirecareer and just really felt like
I mean, the impetus for it wasthat she had a sister,
sister-in-law that was havingthese health issues, no one
could explain.
And she's looking at all ofthese like um natural medicine,
(07:06):
but also like holistic medicineof taking care of all path all
parts of your life to heal it.
And it wasn't until she startedlearning about that and seeing
in the application there thatshe's like, I feel like there's
this part of like my uh need toheal people, help people, but
the way that it's being doneisn't necessarily right.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (07:24):
And so hearing you talk about that, where it's not
just catering to all right,here's the legal um what you're
entitled to, what do you want usto do, like we are here to serve
you.
SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (07:34):
Um, but instead of being like, oh, that's tough.
Like it is hard.
It's a one of the hardestprocesses a lot of people have
ever go through in their life.
SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (07:42):
And so to think that there isn't like this emotional
internal battle as well, andyeah, and helping with that as
well.
Yeah, the whole part of the thepicture.
SPEAKER_04 (07:48):
Totally.
You have to take, and what wetry to do is take a holistic
like approach to it, right?
Is I'm just one piece of thepuzzle and my client's one piece
of the puzzle.
And there's so many otherprofessionals or things we can
put in place to try to make thewhole picture better, right?
Not just like what's going to beon that piece of paper, but
after the paper is signed, istomorrow gonna be better?
(08:11):
Are they gonna feel stronger?
Because the process breaks youdown.
So the goal is if you can comeout feeling better, right?
Then I feel like not only did Iget you hopefully a great
outcome in a hard situation, butif you can feel like a better,
stronger person, like, hey, Ijust went through something that
statistically is one of thehardest experiences you're gonna
(08:32):
go through, second to losing achild, right?
I made it and now I don't haveto feel beaten down by it.
I don't have to feel like mylife is over.
I can actually feel like withthe help of, you know, hopefully
Law Elevated and the otherprofessionals we've set you up
with that like tomorrow can bebetter.
Like I can be stronger, I can bemore confident, right?
Because people come through thatdoor so broken.
(08:53):
And I feel like part of my job,and that's why I feel like
family law is different, right?
I feel like we all have thislike obligation to not just
handle the paperwork, right?
But handle the human and try tomake them better, make them
stronger, because they are sobroken usually when they come to
you.
And I feel like if you approachit that way, like better client
(09:15):
care, like a lot of medicine,right?
They're trying to redefine howhow can we get back to where we
actually knew our patients'names, right?
Or we actually had time toreview a chart before we walked
in a room.
And I feel like there is aresurgence in medicine where
they're trying to get back tothat.
And I feel like law needs thattoo, in a big way.
And so that's like a huge focushere.
(09:36):
It's like we prioritize thehuman, not just, you know, the
statistic.
SPEAKER_03 (09:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's always interestingtalking to people who find
themselves at theseintersections of like, because I
mean, for the most part,especially once you get to
adulthood, life is prettystagnant until there's like
marriage, kid, uh, whateverevent that might be.
But be in a place where you findyourself at those moments so
much, uh usually not for thebest of circumstances.
Like you see a lot of humanemotions in a lot of that.
SPEAKER_04 (10:04):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:04):
And I remember when um like one book I read when I
was going through thattransition was um Conscious
Uncoupling.
And it talks about, I mean, alot of the emotional process,
but like things that I haddefinitely weren't new thoughts,
but like let's call it um youmean either reminders or another
like source of of validation tothat of being like, hey, like
(10:26):
there's something for you thatyou need to learn in this.
Like at the end of the day, yougot yourself into whatever
situation is and learn fromthat.
Also realize you're dealing withthe human.
Also deal, like realize thatthere's yeah, there's like
another part of this that needsto be healed and solved from, or
else patterns just keeprepeating over and over and over
again.
And even like some of myfriends, like I have one friend
(10:47):
who his in-laws have been goingthrough a divorce for like a
better part of a decade.
And it's just thing afteranother, she just kind of wants
to bleed him dry.
And I feel like there's a lot,and curious if you feel like
this is true or not, but peoplekind of use this as a way to
feel like it's gonna fixwhatever they're feeling, and so
if they can make this end withthe way that they want or drag
(11:09):
it on forever, or kind of Imean, maybe too ever walk, like
inflict this and paint on them,then get then they feel like
that will help.
SPEAKER_04 (11:16):
Yeah, retribution.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (11:19):
But let's back up because I'm curious about how
this all came to be.
So, born and raised in FortLauderdale, yeah, obviously
ready to be an attorney.
Uh, but I mean, just kidding.
But toss it out what it was liketo or like that path towards
knowing that you wanted to studylaw and go to law school.
SPEAKER_04 (11:35):
Yeah.
Um, I kind of always knew Iwanted to be a lawyer.
Um, didn't really focus on ittoo much until, you know, was
like a moment in your childhoodwhere you're like I always told
my dad, apparently, that like Iwant to be a lawyer.
And then my dad and mom, youknow, both really encouraged it.
But my mom's story is alwaysthat I'd get in these, you know,
(11:56):
little arguments with my dad,and my mom would yell down,
like, who's the adult downthere, you know?
And that they're like, Well, sheshould go to law school, she
should be a lawyer.
So I think there was someencouraging, right?
But I've definitely alwayswanted to do it.
And then um, halfway throughcollege, I stopped playing
volleyball and was like, if II'm not gonna be a professional
(12:16):
volleyball player, right?
Like that just wasn't in thecards.
And so I was like, I need toprobably focus on what I want to
be, which is law, and startedreally focusing on my grades.
SPEAKER_03 (12:26):
Where'd you go to school friendly at?
SPEAKER_04 (12:27):
Um, I went to Providence College and played
volleyball there.
And then I yeah, like was like,I need to focus, get good
grades.
Um, did got really good grades,applied to law school, went to
law school in Fort Lauderdale.
Um after law school, I was apublic defender for four years
in like the Fort Lauderdale,Miami area.
Yeah.
And then um moved here.
(12:50):
But that was my entry into law.
Um, all through law school, Iknew I wanted to do litigation.
Okay.
And I always was pulled tocriminal defense work because I
think, you know, I love familylaw, but I have such respect for
criminal defense attorneys.
I think that that's what makes,you know, part of the United
States, our country, ourcountry, is that you're innocent
(13:11):
until you're proven guilty.
And I feel like publicdefenders, criminal defense
attorneys are kind of protectorsof the constitution and make law
and hold people accountable.
So I always thought it was areally brilliant um part of law
to get into.
And so that was my you know,entry into the legal world, and
it was like the most amazingexperience ever.
SPEAKER_03 (13:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause then there's you know,especially in litigation,
there's so many people who Imean, you don't have to name any
names around the world, butthere's always people that's
like, oh, they're like justslangy people.
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (13:45):
Then the law, I mean, a lot of people say in the
legal system sometimes can be apay-to-play type of avenue, but
I also think that there's somuch good in I mean, public
defense, because it's usuallynot what most people who are
looking to law to law as a wayto make a lot of money, which
but they're also the people wholike, like you said, are on the
front lines of the constitution,fight for people who usually
(14:06):
won't be fought for.
Yeah.
And um also I grew up watchingDaredevil.
Did you ever watch the showDaredevil where he's a public
defender?
No.
It always comes to mind.
But I I'll never forget a quickside tangent.
Um, I was just home after mymission.
SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (14:21):
And I got called into jury duty.
Oh, and I was like, it's okay.
Like my even my mom and mysisters are like, there's no way
you'll like actually make it ona jury.
So I'm like, yeah, it's fine, Igot stuff to do.
I'm in college.
SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (14:31):
So I go down and it's like there's a couple
hundred of you, and then nextthing you know, you start to get
whittled down and whipped down,and all of a sudden, you're what
they want.
I'm a college kid for just likethis mind to be molded that
hasn't been molded yet.
SPEAKER_04 (14:43):
Exactly.
So or you're in college and youhave more of an open-minded
perspective than some adults whohave had lots of maybe tarnished
experiences.
I would go for you if I was acriminal sensor.
Yeah, I would you would be on mytop list to have on the jury.
SPEAKER_03 (14:58):
It's kind of like the opposite of getting picked
last in gym class.
SPEAKER_04 (15:02):
Like it's like, yeah, we'll take the fight and
you know they're fighting overyou.
If essentially one side wantsyou and the other side wants to
strike you, you're like, theyliked me.
SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
Yeah, specifically.
Can you say that louder, please?
SPEAKER_03 (15:12):
Thank you.
Everybody in the back.
Uh-huh.
So I end up on this jury panel,which is like wild experience.
That yeah, I don't wish anybodyto do it because it's not like
anything you ever want to do,but it's fun to no one wants to,
right.
And because I remember when theyfirst called us, we go in the
back room or whatever, yeah, andno one's talking, not a single
word.
Very like this is 2012.
So a couple people had phones,uh-huh.
(15:34):
And I just gone back from mymission.
So I'm just ready to talk toanything.
Yeah, I guess.
So I'm like the first timethey're like tapping my knee,
just wanting to talk about it.
We go, they do the first stuffor whatever, and then we come
back.
And the second time I was like,all right, I can't do this
anymore.
Let's go around the room,introduce ourselves.
Like, I can't do this.
Right.
And so I'd make everybody goaround the room, introduce
themselves, and then we all likestarted talking.
SPEAKER_04 (15:55):
Amazing.
SPEAKER_03 (15:55):
Which in hindsight, what the hell?
Like, yeah, wild.
Neanderth would do that amillion years ago.
SPEAKER_04 (16:00):
Well, it makes sense what you're doing now, though.
I see it.
SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
I it's it's good to know I don't have a fear of
public speaking.
SPEAKER_04 (16:05):
You right.
Totally no, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:08):
But I'll never forget.
So there's this attorney thatwas the public defender, and
flat fast forward uh four yearslater, I was in this elevator in
this um uh building for aninternship I was doing, and I
was like, I know that voice.
Well, it's him, and everybodygot out the elevator.
We were going to the top floors,and I'm like, hey, did you
defend a case that was this,this, this, this, and this?
(16:28):
He's like, Yeah, yeah, like Iwas on the jury.
He's like, No way, like, oh,like, good to see you.
Yeah.
So yeah, it was funny to goaround.
But okay, anyway, back to backto the main event.
Um, so you start in publicdefense and you get all of that,
but then you know you wanted toeventually make your way back or
to litigation in defense.
(16:49):
Uh-huh.
I mean, at what point did I meanthis come into picture?
Because I mean, not onlychanging to family law from that
is different.
Well, yes, it is family law,just litigation and family law.
But I mean, talk to me aboutwhat led to you wanting to not
only start your own practice,but start a practice that has, I
mean, a spin to it that you'renot used to seeing.
SPEAKER_04 (17:08):
Sure.
Um, well, what happened was is Imoved to Utah and had to take
the bar again.
So no reciprocity, meaningyou're licensed in Florida, you
can practice law in Florida, butwe don't recognize that license
here in Utah because Floridawon't recognize Utah attorneys.
So Florida's a really hard barto become a part of.
Um, it's super competitive.
(17:30):
There's a lot of lawyers, it's areally hard bar exam.
And so Florida is this like noreciprocity state.
You have to take Florida's testto be a lawyer there.
So, because of that, otherstates are like, well, then you
can't just come here and be alawyer here.
If you're gonna make Utahattorneys do the test, we're
gonna make you do it too.
So I had to come here and studyfor the test again.
(17:50):
Um, and while I was studying forthe test, and this was like five
years later, so some of itfresh, but like most of it not,
right?
You're like reteaching yourselfit.
SPEAKER_03 (18:00):
It's a lot of numbers and details that tend to
fade with years.
SPEAKER_04 (18:03):
Oh, for sure.
And law changes and they add newtopics to the bar that weren't
on the bar five years ago thatyou have to like reteach
yourself.
So, not like my favorite time inlife.
And I said to my uh thenboyfriend, who's now my husband,
the reason I moved out here.
I'm like, I'm not doing thisagain.
So, like, you know, we're eitherUtah baby corporate law.
(18:23):
Yeah, yeah.
I like this is not happeningagain, but it worked out well.
But um I get to step.
No.
SPEAKER_03 (18:30):
So what brought you to Utah specifically?
SPEAKER_04 (18:33):
Um, my husband lived out here.
So we went to high schooltogether, but like didn't date
in high school but knew eachother.
Um, and then Christmas, everyonewould go to the same bar in
town, and Fort Lauderdale's kindof a small town once you get
used to it, and everyone'sthere, and we just reconnected
again, and he was already livingout here and so started dating
(18:54):
long distance.
And then after a year of that, Idecided to move out here and
yeah, so had to take the baragain.
I wasn't gonna give up being alawyer, so had to take the bar
again and took it, passed it.
Um yeah, nice, yeah.
First try, thank God.
Cause I don't know if I wouldhave gone back to that.
SPEAKER_03 (19:15):
I've had to take like uh SEC like finance.
Yeah.
And if anyone was like, hey, youhave to do that again, I'd be
like, no.
SPEAKER_04 (19:23):
Right.
Yes.
No, it's a hard no.
I'm never taking a bar again.
So glad that's behind me.
Um and yeah, so I was at a pointwhere you're like, what am I
gonna do?
Am I going to get into privatecriminal defense work after I
passed this bar exam?
Um, am I going to pivot?
And I found it as a really goodopportunity to pivot.
(19:45):
And I loved criminal defensework.
Again, I think it's like one ofthe most noble fields you can
get into as a practitioner, butit's stressful.
And a lot of attorneys think I'mcrazy when I say that because
family law is looked at as likea really stressful field of law,
which it is.
But criminal defense was wasstressful.
You know, you're in court everyday.
Like there's not a day reallythat you're out of court.
SPEAKER_03 (20:07):
Um because like I grew up with my mom being a
pediatrician.
And when I was thinking aboutjobs, I was like, I don't want
to be in a place where peopleare like, again, going through
some of the worst times of theirlife, bad energy, like all of
these things.
Right.
So in a similar way to be like,Yeah, I'm gonna go be at the
courtroom all the time.
SPEAKER_04 (20:21):
Oh, yeah.
And and and building your way upthrough the public, you know,
defender world is getting moreserious cases, right?
So you prove that you're doingwell with like juvenile court
where I started, and then theymove you up to felony court or
misdemeanor court, and fromthere you get higher level
felony offenses.
So what you're dealing with,it's all heavy, but it becomes
(20:43):
heavier and heavier and heavier.
So, you know, you're dealingwith people that are facing, you
know, 30 years plus in prisonfor the rest of their life as
you're as I was leaving.
No pressure.
Right.
And that's a lot of pressure.
And um also, you know, theymight lose and besides go to
prison for the rest of theirlife.
(21:04):
The f their family has foreverconsequences from maybe their
father being incarcerated, theirson, who knows?
Um, and so I knew I wanted topivot from that a little bit and
not be in court every single dayand not have like that kind of
weight on your shoulders.
Um, and I was still put prettyyoung, you know, when I moved
out here, I was 30.
(21:24):
Um, so it was a good point totransition.
And I thought, okay, well, whatcan I do that's still I'm in
court because I love court, Ilove litigation.
And that's the world that publicdefense showed me and taught me
was that, you know, you buildthese amazing litigation skills
that a lot of young attorneysdon't get.
Because most young attorneyschase the big paycheck out of
(21:45):
law school.
They want to work for the fancylaw firm downtown that will give
them a nice paycheck, but won'tgive them experience, right?
They're gonna make them a paperpusher and maybe they get to
argue a motion here and there,but they never get to do the big
trial.
And it takes them years in theircareer, maybe 10 years, to
finally get to where they thinkthey want to be.
(22:07):
So there's lots of ceilings inlaw.
If you kind of go in with thatmentality of I just want the
paycheck or I want to wear asuit every day, I want to be at
the fancy firm.
And when you go into publicdefense or prosecution work, you
you know you're not gonna makethe money, but you know you're
going to have invaluableexperience that you get to carry
with you the rest of yourcareer.
(22:27):
And it is, you're in court everyday.
So you become a good litigator,right?
Hopefully, that's the goal.
And you learn evidence and youbecome dangerous in a courtroom.
And so that's what that gave me.
And I'm like, how can I pivotthat?
It's gotta be such a funconfidence.
It's fun.
It's a it's great.
Like that kind of it's great.
(22:48):
It's super fun.
SPEAKER_03 (22:49):
If hear me out, if like comedy is like a thing
where someone would be like,hey, like, go hop on stage.
You think you're funny?
Go, go, go make people laugh.
I don't like being in acourtroom is like, oh, you think
you're good at arguing?
You think you're a good likeseeker?
Yeah, go make your point, makeyour point.
SPEAKER_04 (23:04):
Right.
And that's where I was like, howcan I kind of use this dangerous
skill set in a way that it's notthe exact same thing as what I
was doing?
And family law came to mind islike you're not in court every
single day, um, but you get togo to court enough and you still
get to help people because thelast thing I want to do is like
sit at a desk and just pushpaper all day.
Like that's not for me.
(23:25):
Um, and I couldn't do that afterworking like so closely with
people and families for fouryears, like I had to continue
that um just in a way that waslike better balanced.
And so family law really hit forme in doing that.
And then um, I also realizedafter getting into it for a
couple of years that a lot offamily law practitioners don't
(23:47):
have that litigation background.
Um, so it it's become a good wayfor me to kind of use that skill
set um to my advantage, youknow, and to my clients'
advantage.
In that when we do get to go tocourt and we do litigate, it's
something I'm super passionateabout and I love it and and I'm
(24:08):
good at it, you know.
And a lot of family lawpractitioners just don't get to
use evidence a lot.
We don't, they don't get to makethe big objections, they don't
get to do jury trials.
So I get to kind of use thatbackground to my to my
advantage, my clients'advantage, and help them better
their outcome in a courtroom.
SPEAKER_03 (24:26):
Interesting.
Because I had thought about thatbefore, because like again, like
you probably know better thanme, but X percent of um uh
family law ends up in trial.
Correct, small amount.
And so if I've been in familylaw my entire life, I'm like,
I've gone to court five timescompared to you.
It's like this is the 50, likewhatever mac order of magnitude
(24:47):
that that would be.
Right.
I'd be like, thank god I evercompared the person who's like,
I know when I remember likethat's like the the litigation
for dummies books not on thetable.
It's like I don't know.
SPEAKER_04 (24:55):
Yeah, well.
Yeah, and and everyone, youknow, and that's the great thing
is like the bar here is awesome.
And the people I work with, Ialways say work with.
You obviously you're workingagainst them, but most people
are super like-minded that getinto family law, and then it's
like, let's help people, let'sproblem solve.
Litigation is not usually thebest route for these families or
these individuals, which istrue.
(25:16):
And I try to avoid it for myclients as well.
But what I like is when we doget to go, it's kind of like
that's when the gloves come off,right?
Is it's no longer um a problemsolving world.
It's it's a world of legal art,really.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
So talk to me about if you go back to the pre-family
law litigation that you used todo compared to the attorney you
are now.
I mean, how do you think you'vegrown?
How do you think you're you'velike changed your perspective on
the legal system or just likehow that's shaped you?
SPEAKER_04 (25:50):
Sure.
Um, I definitely think familylaw has changed me in that you
can't be as aggressive, right?
Um, a lot of people have thismindset of, oh, I want like the
bulldog attorney, right?
Um, I want somebody who's gonnarip my ex apart and things like
that.
And that's not really whatfamily law is.
(26:11):
And if you go in with thatmindset, sure you'll find an
attorney like that.
But the goal is to problemsolve, right?
And to avoid litigation.
And again, when you're inlitigation, sure, the gloves,
the gloves come off.
But one thing you learn as Ithink a public defender or
criminal defense attorney isyou're in order.
Like you're there to tell astory, right?
You're there to tell yourclient's side of the story and
(26:33):
and hopefully show that this,the state, the prosecutor can't
prove beyond a reasonable doubtyour client did it.
And that's because you'reconvincing them of a story.
And I feel like that's what weget to do as litigating
attorneys, right?
You get to be your client'svoice, you get to um hopefully
convince the judge that yourclient's story with the help of
(26:55):
evidence is the correct storyand the judge should rule in
favor of your client.
So that background of justconstantly trying to prove a
story, um, I think helps a lotfrom the criminal world into the
family law world.
And just, you know, I'm here totell you why this is this
version of the facts is correctversus the other side.
(27:18):
And I think sometimes if youdon't have that experience of
trying to persuade, right, ajury of of a certain side of the
story, it's it's harder tocommunicate it as well.
SPEAKER_03 (27:29):
It's wild to me like the because I graduated from
college eight years ago?
A little over eight years ago.
And it's interesting because Iremember when everyone was
picking their majors, thinkingit was like the most important
thing in the world, second tolike what cl how's he got picked
on in Harry Potter.
It's I would always give peoplecrowd the communications majors,
or especially the strategiccommunication majors.
(27:50):
Uh-huh.
And it's funny now because likeeverything that I've learned
about um, I mean, how to getpeople to do what you want, how
to get things done, how to getpeople on your side, it's all
comes out of strategiccommunication.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:05):
And it's it's interesting to not realize how
much of a skill that was until Irealized how much it mattered
and seeing the people who got, Imean, the promotion, the
everything that they wanted to.
It wasn't just about when, oh,well, just buckle down and do
your time.
It's like, no, no, no, they'regood communicators.
Right.
And in the same way, like, Imean, if you're litigating doing
litigation, it it is astorytelling.
It is that this idea of what youwant them to know or think.
SPEAKER_04 (28:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and you know, articulatelycommunicating that to benefit
your client.
Um, yeah, it's it's superimportant.
It's one of the most importantthings we do as a litigator.
SPEAKER_03 (28:41):
Yeah.
So you start the firm.
Yeah.
Um you walk me through how likethe Avengers got assembled or
how the team is has cometogether.
Because I mean, it's I mean,obviously, not just you now,
right?
But talk to a guy how that grewup when you some of the people
that have made it what it is forthat.
SPEAKER_04 (28:56):
Yeah.
Um, the team is definitely whywe're a strong firm for sure.
Um, and how it got assembled isreally, again, me believing that
like we have to get back tobetter client care.
And that's like always been mytop priority is how can we
reformat this equation, let'ssay, or how can we look at it
(29:18):
differently?
Law, right?
And most people, when you walkinto a law office, you and I are
talking about this.
It's like stale, it's boring.
It's a lot of diplomas on awall, it's a lot of law books.
Um, and I wanted to very muchget away from that because I
think that's separating theattorney from the client or
trying to create a dynamic ofI'm the attorney, you know, um,
(29:42):
and I'm gonna, you know, fixeverything.
And I'm this superior being typeattitude that a lot of, you
know, attorneys across the boardhave.
But that attitude gets away froma good, I think, rapport with
your client.
And so I wanted to create anatmosphere.
Where it was client focused,right?
Like, how do we redefine orreapproach how we deal with our
(30:08):
clients and have them come intoa space that's bright and
cheery?
Um, have them come into a bunchof lawyers that you maybe
sometimes can't tell who's theattorney, who's the paralegal,
who's the staff.
And that's that's how we wantit.
Like, you're not gonna come inhere and find a suit.
Um the only time you're gonnafind a suit is because maybe we
(30:28):
just left trial or the courtroomor something like that.
But it is a laid back, invitingatmosphere because the goal is
to create a relationship withour clients and not just look at
them as a case, right?
Or, you know, the medicalanalogy, like a chart that maybe
you look at before you go in totalk with them.
Like I wanted to change thatdynamic.
(30:50):
And so assembling a team that,you know, have the same
viewpoint um versus hourlybilling, for example.
Like a lot of attorneys um focuson, you know, how many billable
hours can you get.
SPEAKER_03 (31:04):
I mean, it becomes like a KPI for the entire firm.
Like you have to have so manyhours uh build hours and you
have to go find so many buildhours.
SPEAKER_04 (31:11):
Yes.
And that takes again away from Ithink what's important in the
value system I'm trying tocreate here.
And I think law needs to getback to in general, is you got
to get away from that billablehour mindset because it takes
people away from the human,right?
And so here, like any of theattorneys, there is not a
(31:31):
mandatory like billable hourthat these attorneys have to
hit.
Because if you do that, you'reyou're literally focusing on
that and not focusing on what Iwant to focus on, which is the
human that walks through thedoor.
And so that has been my priorityhere in starting Law Elevated is
we're gonna focus on the humanand we're gonna kind of change
the traditional law landscape ofhow offices operate so that we
(31:56):
can do that and not just saywe're doing it, right?
SPEAKER_03 (31:59):
And one thing I want to talk about in the slide pivot
is Utah and Salt Lake have suchlike a unique um, I mean, let's
focus on like the divorce sideof things.
Like it's so unique because Imean, people get married young,
which people get married young,and people I would assume would
get divorced younger.
Maybe.
And so even with me, like Idivorced when I was 32.
SPEAKER_01 (32:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:20):
And like I had this thought that I'm going to be
this scarlet letter.
No one's gonna want to talk tome.
If they do, it's gotta havethese answers.
And if you don't answereverything perfectly, then
you're out.
And then all of a sudden I findmyself dating.
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah,cool.
Anyway, tell me more about thewhat?
No.
So I'm curious.
In I mean, especially beingsomeone from out of state coming
(32:42):
here and seeing some of thesetrends, rates, um, or just
clientele differences.
Like, what do you see that makesUtah unique in that aspect?
SPEAKER_04 (32:50):
Yeah, I think Utah is super unique in that there's
plenty of people getting marriedyoung, right?
Like that is not something Igrew up with, or a lot of my
friends did in Fort Lauderdale,right?
Like most of my friends havekids in our 30s.
Like that's when we startedhaving kids in Utah.
You know, you're very, you'relike old for having children
(33:12):
starting a family in your 30s.
So that dynamic is is different,right?
And took some getting used to.
But um I think there's plentyof, you know, young couples out
here that are obviously likegetting divorced at a young age
and they're remarrying also at ayoung age.
And so it it lends to uniquedynamics when it comes to the
initial divorce and thenpost-divorce life, because when
(33:35):
you're remarrying and you havekids, maybe your new spouse has
kids, that can create a lot ofdynamics that didn't exist, you
know, when you got divorced thatnow you're bringing to the table
in, you know, this kind of newphase of your life where Utah
definitely has that more than Iexperienced in Fort Lauderdale
for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (33:53):
Yeah, it's a it is a very unique one because like
even a lot of my friends thatgot married young, had kids
young, and then got divorcedyoung, then there's this new
dynamic of things.
And so my sister got divorcedbefore I did.
And it was fun to see her justlike, I mean, use that as a
stepping sort of reallychampioning herself to be her
best self, yeah, but then foundher like person and to see them
(34:15):
I mean, not only have like therelationship of themselves, but
then also being like, okay, likeI have my kids, you have your
kids, there's always gonna besomething else to think through.
I didn't realize that until Iwas dating someone who had kids,
and they were like, and uh,there's like an epiphany I had
because like my sister was evenlike she's like, Oh, think about
dating someone with kids.
I was like, What do you mean?
Like they're great, but I couldbe like the dad that stepped up,
(34:37):
whatever that could be.
But then I was like, Oh, butthere's like this part of you'll
never be the first priority,which is it's not a good thing,
it's not a bad thing, it's athing, and there's something you
have to come together with.
And so again, like when I wasdating before I got married, I
was meaning called like the endof college and like very
different time than likemid-30s, where there's a lot of
responsibilities and a lot ofthings have to get done.
(34:57):
And there's this whole block ofa day that kind of gets taken
out of any time that you canactually interact with each
other, plus all the otherresponsibilities you might have.
And then all of a sudden youthrow in like this kid aspect of
like, oh, like a lot, so littleman, like, hi, you know, yeah,
what do I do with this?
And like thankfully, I've beenaround enough kids that like
that it's not like I can't bearound child, but yeah, it's
these unique aspects that youdon't really see a lot of other
(35:21):
places.
SPEAKER_04 (35:21):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
I have two brothers and they'reyou know single in Fort
Lauderdale, and um, it'sdifferent, right?
I don't they're not, you know,dating or even like hanging out
with women with kids yet, butthey're both in their early and
mid-30s.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (35:39):
Yeah, very interesting spot.
But yeah, but it's fun.
I like the uniqueness of it.
I like the like one thing thatI've come to appreciate more is
the connection that can happenover shared experience, which is
like the broad umbrella, butthen there's like these other
very specific experiences thatif you share with someone,
there's like so many steps, it'slike shoots and ladders.
You just went up a ladder tolike almost win the game because
(36:02):
that experience is so unique andit's hard to find people to have
that.
SPEAKER_00 (36:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:06):
And so in my experience, like divorce has
been one.
Like, is if I can talk tosomeone about it or or like
seeing them in like the firstemotion of like I've been, I
know you feel like it'll getbetter, but it's gonna suck for
a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:17):
And then also, I mean, just leaving Mormonism is
like that.
Was another one.
Like, if I sit and hear thatsomeone else's ex-mormon, we can
sit there and talk, and like 20minutes later, I'm like, oh
yeah, this is like this is mybest guy.
Like, yeah, you just connect itover.
SPEAKER_04 (36:28):
For a lot to connect over.
SPEAKER_03 (36:29):
So it is fun to have like that's the I guess silver
lining that I see a lot of thetime is is it helps with a lot
of connector I mean, and intoday's world, it's connections,
one of the hardest things thatwe struggle with is a
population.
SPEAKER_04 (36:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03 (36:42):
Um anything else, should we cover?
SPEAKER_04 (36:45):
Whatever you think.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (36:48):
So Park City.
Yeah.
So I'm always curious of likewhy people pick Park City
specifically, because I mean,don't get me wrong, beautiful
place.
I've spent a ton of time here,but sometimes lacks some of like
the amenities of being in, Imean, I guess like a tertiary
city of the United States ofAmerica.
But I mean, what keeps you uphere in Park City specifically
compared to being in any otherpart you could reasonably
(37:10):
commute to or move an office to?
SPEAKER_04 (37:12):
Yeah.
Um, well, when we moved here, westarted in Salt Lake and then
moved to Sugar House, which wasgreat.
We were younger, we had a lot offun.
Um, but I think being like twokids, people from a beach town,
you know, we both grew up in abeach town.
So it was like you want theaccess to if you can't have the
ocean, at least have greataccess to the mountains.
(37:35):
Um, because my husband and Iboth like to get out there and
recreate.
He grew up surfing, so um, andskiing.
So he was super into the, youknow, being up here.
He taught me how to ski and nowI love it.
So we kind of just reached thispoint where we're like, this is
before housing prices in SaltLake and Park City were like
(37:56):
insane.
Um, before houses in Sugar Housewere like, you know, almost a
million dollars for like what aone-bathroom house, like crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (38:04):
It was your six-bed, one bathroom house.
Yeah.
Stand up all the way in thebeach today.
SPEAKER_04 (38:08):
Yes.
So it was before all of that.
And thankfully, and we decided,okay, if we're gonna stay here,
we want to be up in themountains.
We want to be close to biking,hiking, skiing.
Um, not that it's a bad commuteat all between Salt Lake and
Park City, but that was just ourchoice.
Um, and so we moved up hereabout nine years ago now.
(38:30):
And um, yeah, and we've loved itever since.
We absolutely love living uphere, being part of this
community.
Um, and it's still it's such amellow commute.
Like a lot of times people thinkI'm crazy.
Like, how do you live in ParkCity and go to court in Salt
Lake sometimes?
And it's it's nothing, right?
And for I think most of theUnited States, right, a
(38:51):
30-minute commute to work is nota big deal.
No.
Um, but here people think it'slike a long distance, but it's
not.
It's it's super mellow and youget to drive up and down the
canyon, which is beautiful.
So yeah, it's been it's been anamazing move for us and we love
it.
SPEAKER_03 (39:07):
Yeah, I've always appreciated appreciated Park
City because like in highschool, one of my really good
friends, um, well, I met areally good friend, and he lived
up here with his mom, and hisdad lived up in Midway.
So it spent a lot of time inSummon County to begin with.
But it was fun because like Iwould spend kind of like down in
Salt Lake school, whatever, andthen I come up here in the to
stay at his mom's house for theweekend.
(39:27):
It was such a cool experiencefor kids because like you have
the bus, you can kind of gowherever you wanted to, and you
know people have e-bikes andthat's a whole nother topic.
But um, it was just so fun toget used to it because like
because like don't get me wrong,like when I was in high school,
I mean we'd slot school and goskiing like junior, senior year.
Yeah, but it was different thanthem being like, oh, school's
out.
We had like an hour and a halfif you had like let's go skiing.
(39:49):
I'm like, oh, that's like rightthere.
You literally hop on the bus,right?
And like three-ish stops later,you're at the bottom of PCMR.
SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:56):
And I mean, obviously, there's like a very
the it was like the first time Isaw like that levels of wealth
sometimes.
I'm like, yeah, oh God.
SPEAKER_04 (40:04):
Yeah, yeah, there's that too up here for sure.
But I I envision it being a coolplace to grow up as a kid that
you can access skiing, go everyday if you want.
Um, and you know, I don't thinkthere's many places where we
have a four-year-old and she'salready a really good skier, and
she's already a really goodbiker and has her little, you
know, front bake front brakes onher bike that like I totally
(40:29):
didn't have as a kid.
You know, I had like my trainingwheels until I was six or
something.
Like, so it's it's such a coolplace to grow up and see these
kids just do, you know, suchkind of gnarly and fun things at
such a young age.
SPEAKER_03 (40:41):
Yeah, like watching my niece and nephew go through
similar things because like Iknew I was one of those kids,
but you don't realize it whenyou are that kid.
Right.
You have to see it like in thatthird person when you get older.
Yeah.
And so like it was the same skiseason like four years ago, and
like we're on the bunny hill andwe're doing pizza, and then I I
mean that was probably in earlyNovember whenever um I remember
(41:01):
as a solitude opened, and thenlike fast forward to the end of
the season, my sister's like,Hey, it's um they want you to
come ski with them.
Yeah, you go to your valley,will you?
I'm like, Yeah, you know, I canhave a slow day or whatever.
And then all of a sudden I'mlike, What happened?
Like, right, they just havethis, and then also the thought
of learning how to ski as anadult when like I actually have
fears and like it was yeah, itwas a lot.
SPEAKER_04 (41:21):
Yeah, I I didn't ski for the first time until let's
see, I was probably 29 when myhusband was teaching me then.
But yeah, I'm so glad he did,and he was a great teacher, he
was super patient, and I love itnow.
It's great.
I'm super thankful.
But yeah, hard learning whenyou're in your late 20s, early
30s for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (41:40):
Yeah, anybody who learned after the age of like 20
am I I don't know if I couldhave gone through it.
Right.
I had a lot of tears on a skihill.
My grandpa's saying whether wewere water skiing or snow skiing
was shut up and ski.
Right.
And just do it.
Then these like I'd be crying onthe side of like the Tavo
Sobird, and I like no, like I'mlike yelling at myself, cussing
(42:02):
as like a six-year-old.
Yeah, everyone just staring,waiting, I'm like, there's
nothing I can do.
I guess I just have to go.
SPEAKER_04 (42:07):
Right, right.
Wasn't that fun?
Let's keep going.
SPEAKER_03 (42:08):
Like yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (42:10):
It was it was there was definitely some some crying
moments for sure, but all inall, got through it and now you
know it's a lifetime sport,which is so great.
SPEAKER_03 (42:20):
And then the commute side, like I love when people in
Utah think that we have trafficand like bad commutes.
Yes, like don't get me wrong,like I used to work in Lehigh as
people who work in tech and livein Salt Lake do.
And I mean it was kind of nicefor a while because I was like,
oh, it's 30 minutes.
Like I get through a podcast,get through some of a book,
whatever that might be.
(42:41):
And then I eventually startedtaking front runner there and
back and bought a scooter, so Igot like five minutes scooter
ride to the office and then justwork on the train, and that was
that was a unique time.
But um, it's wild when because Iinterned in DC in college.
Oh, cool, and hearing of theircommutes, like this bone guy
knew three hours every day, wokeup at three, so he could be at
(43:02):
the office by seven and thenleave at five, get home by
eight, and do it all over again.
SPEAKER_04 (43:07):
The northeast is all like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:09):
Like I would I I can't like even fathom lot like
mentally, like being like, I'mokay with this.
SPEAKER_04 (43:16):
Right.
No, I I think so, you know, thetown I lived in is Lauderdale by
the Sea, Florida, which is just,you know, it's a 15-minute drive
to the Fort Lauderdalecourthouse.
But because there's so muchtraffic, it would take me 45
minutes a lot of days.
So like that is zero distance.
Like I would it would be wayfaster to get on a bike and I
(43:37):
would get there, right?
But that's why this commute parkcity to Salt Lake is really
nothing.
It's it's easy, it's not bad.
There's hardly traffic.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:46):
Love it.
SPEAKER_04 (43:47):
I love it too.
SPEAKER_03 (43:49):
Well, before we wrap up, want to ask the two
questions I always ask everyguest.
Um, number one, if you couldhave someone on the Small Lake
City podcast and hear more abouttheir story and what they're up
to, who would you want to hearfrom?
SPEAKER_04 (44:00):
I don't know.
Ask me the second one and I'llthink about it.
SPEAKER_03 (44:02):
And if people want to find more information on Law
Elevated or get in contact,what's the best place to go to
for that?
SPEAKER_04 (44:08):
Um, our website.
So at law elevated.com.
Yeah.
And Instagram, same thing.
Follow us at Law Law Elevated.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:19):
Easy voice.
SPEAKER_04 (44:20):
Yeah.
Hmm.
Who else should you have on thepod?
Oh, I think another great personto talk to.
He's awesome.
Um, if you want another lawyer,especially when he's like
criminal defense, um, StevenGrayson, he's up here.
His office is super close.
He's great.
Um, him and I have workedtogether on so many cases.
(44:42):
I refer all my criminal cases tohim.
Um, he's not just like a greatlawyer, because he is, but he's
such a great human who's justsuper down to earth.
I think him and I totally likethink the same way when it comes
to how we approach law and ourclients, just like a really, you
know, realistic humanexperience.
(45:02):
His clients all love him.
He's such an easy person toconnect to.
Um, like the exact opposite ofan arrogant criminal defense
attorney.
He's he's great.
I would I would put him on.
Cool.
And I think you would have a lotof fun talking to him too.
Sounds like it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (45:17):
Got a lot of questions for him.
SPEAKER_04 (45:18):
Yeah.
He's he's seen a lot, so I can'tyeah, I can't imagine.
SPEAKER_03 (45:24):
Because like there's certain jobs where you go home,
like, oh my gosh, you'll neverguess what Christina did at the
office.
She ate my lunch again.
Right.
But then there's the people wholike my cousin works in the Air
Force in Idaho, and like he justcomes home and can't talk about
a single thing that he did.
That's so hard.
But then also like coming home,you're like, how was working?
Like, you don't want to know.
SPEAKER_04 (45:43):
Right.
unknown (45:43):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (45:44):
I'm gonna keep this one to myself respectfully.
SPEAKER_04 (45:46):
Oh yeah, there's a lot, but I mean, there's a lot
he can't talk about, but butalso I could see the other side
of things where I mean, in theproliferation of crime podcasts
and everything in between, we'relike, tell me all the tea,
what's been going on?
SPEAKER_03 (45:59):
Right.
Give me the details.
SPEAKER_04 (46:00):
And he and he was a prosecutor for a while and then
switched to criminal defense anddoes it up here.
So he just gets to deal with alot of unique stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (46:11):
Love it.
SPEAKER_04 (46:11):
Yeah, yeah, and he's seen both sides.
So it's always cool, I think, totalk to someone who's been a
prosecutor and is now a criminaldefense attorney because they've
had to approach thingsdifferently.
But talk about a dangerouscriminal defense attorney when
they can read the mind of aprosecutor.
SPEAKER_03 (46:28):
So been on both sides.
SPEAKER_04 (46:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (46:30):
He's a good one.
Yeah, reach out.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much.
It was a great drive up here.
I'm excited for my drive down.
Appreciation was great.
Good.
Yeah.
Anybody who is looking for somefamily law services and wants a
little bit more humaninteraction along the way,
definitely check it out.
SPEAKER_04 (46:46):
Yeah, give us a call.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (46:48):
Thank you.
What is up, everybody, and welcome back to
another episode of the SmallLake City Podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Nilsen, andthis week's guest is Noni
Ferguson, the founder of LawElevated, a family law practice
based in Park City, Utah.
Now, Noni isn't from Salt Lake,she's from South Florida, but
she moved here for Shocker, aboy.
And she has since created herown family law practice here,
(00:22):
starting a family here.
And what makes her practiceunique is it focuses on the
client themselves, their mentalhealth, what they're going
through, and a lot of thehumanity in the process, and not
just the legal ramifications orwhat they're entitled to.
Now, a great conversation withNoni.
We talk a lot about theuniqueness of Utah, what made
her want to be here, especiallywith her starting a family.
(00:42):
So let's jump into it.
Hope you enjoy it, and I'll seeyou on the other side.
Enjoy.
SPEAKER_04 (00:48):
Velvet Taco.
SPEAKER_03 (00:49):
It's like one of the, I mean, have you ever been
to shoot what's the placedowntown?
Rock taco.
In Fort Lauderdale?
No, in Saltworth.
Uh-uh.
I mean, it's like one of thoselike, flack with a better term,
like very like white tacoplaces.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
It's like, here's a fried chicken taco, or here's a
salad taco.
SPEAKER_03 (01:06):
Got it.
It's like this is one of thoseplaces.
I mean, I like it.
Like I remember the only reasonI know about it really is um
cool.
Is um if I'm talking, you wantto if not I can manage volume.
Um reason I know it's fromDallas is because I did in a
very Utah fashion summer salesdown there for a cyber in
college.
(01:26):
And every Saturday night when wewere done, we would go to this
taco place, and it was sophenomenal.
SPEAKER_04 (01:31):
And they had so in college you were going to Fort
Lauderdale too?
SPEAKER_03 (01:35):
This was sorry, this was in Dallas.
SPEAKER_04 (01:36):
Oh got it.
This is the place that it'ssimilar to.
SPEAKER_03 (01:38):
So that's where I found it.
But then when I went to FortLauderdale the first time for
work, I was like, uh-huh.
There it is.
SPEAKER_02 (01:44):
It clicked.
SPEAKER_03 (01:44):
Well, this kid.
But yeah, Fort Lauderdale isfun.
It was more fun when like when Ifirst started, it was in
February.
So I was like, great, I get toleave Utah in February to go to
Fort Lauderdale.
For sure.
It was so nice.
And then this summer when itwas, I mean, a hundred degrees
here and a hundred degreesthere, and like there is no
steeping, any sort of do youlike a cocktail every once in a
(02:05):
while or no?
Uh hard yes.
SPEAKER_04 (02:07):
Okay, well, that's a good place for it.
SPEAKER_03 (02:09):
Well, me and my boss have a joke is whenever we get
together, we'll always do um uhbaca martinis.
Uh-huh.
Because I mean in Utah you can'tget like a true martini.
SPEAKER_02 (02:19):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
And so whenever he's away, he's away from it.
Three kids is why he's likefucking it.
His name's Eric as well.
So the Eric's.
SPEAKER_04 (02:28):
Got it.
SPEAKER_03 (02:29):
But yeah, it's it's fun.
I mean, Florida's just such a Imean, you put Florida and Utah,
especially Salt Lake together.
That is a fan diagram that likevery minimal.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (02:40):
Yeah, no, there's not much overlap at all.
SPEAKER_03 (02:42):
But yeah.
Yeah, it's good.
And also it was phenomenal todrive up here because I was a
couple weeks ago, Galtri and Iwas telling you about, we I was
like, I didn't drive backthrough Guardsman.
Like, it is that time of theyear.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Yeah, it is phenomenal.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (02:56):
And then now, like it's always like that uh like
the FOMO of you're like, theseare only gonna be there for like
a week or two.
For sure.
Get out there, winter's coming.
Like, yeah, and you always havethis like FOMO of like, I'm not
getting out of if I'm notenjoying it.
SPEAKER_04 (03:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:09):
So I was like, that scratched that itch away.
SPEAKER_04 (03:11):
Yeah, it's good.
Good.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
It's already starting to fade.
So good thing you got up herewhen you did.
SPEAKER_03 (03:17):
Yeah, it's like once those reds start to turn into
more like uh muted rustic red,and you're like, oh yeah, yeah,
I'm starting to miss it.
SPEAKER_04 (03:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:24):
And because we're up in Park City, because we're your
office, but is this or do youlive up in Park City as well?
I do.
Oh, yeah.
So you can enjoy it all.
SPEAKER_04 (03:31):
Yeah.
I mean, like you though, like Iwe're really busy, so like on
the weekends when we can.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
Whatever I can tell my voice is getting dry.
SPEAKER_04 (03:43):
For sure.
SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
There's enough episodes I've recorded where
someone's voice will likeliterally just completely dry
out.
SPEAKER_03 (03:50):
Yeah.
Or I'll be listening to it backand I'll be like, can I look up
just like I could tell they needa cup of water so badly?
Yeah.
That I couldn't tell at thetime.
So I will not be a victim ofthat.
Okay, good.
Um, but law elevated.
Uh-huh.
I'm excited because I get ahandful of uh, I mean, let's
call it professional servicespeople to reach out.
And like my question back tothem is always like, Well, why
(04:13):
you?
If I'm gonna have an attorney, abanker, a you know, whatever it
might be, profession, like, whyshould it be you?
Like, is there anything you'redoing specifically?
Is there any sort of uniqueshtick or niche that you serve?
And most people are like, hey,you got me, we're just in
trouble, like patent law for I'mlike, thanks, but no, thanks.
Right.
And so when uh I can't rememberwho reached out her name, but
(04:34):
Cali probably reached out and Iwas like, all right, like let's
look at this.
Cool.
I was like, huh.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (04:41):
Because the then the reason it struck a chord with me
is as I mentioned, I was settingup like I'm divorced.
Uh-huh.
And I mean, law elevatedprimarily focuses on family law.
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (04:51):
Um, and so it's interesting with me because like
when I got divorced, very fringecase where no attorneys, no
nothing, like it's everythingwas pretty much separated to
begin with.
She has her 401k, I had mine,bank accounts, blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_04 (05:03):
So it's just like, well, like a breakup of
paperwork.
SPEAKER_03 (05:06):
Yeah.
Like, and I go through thepaperwork, I'm like, this is it.
Like, I expected to be chatchibeating the entire thing.
Yeah.
Like, yeah, so declare this,declare that, sign here, 30
days, sign that.
It's good.
And it was interesting becauselike, oh, I've seen a lot, as
most people in Utah, which we'llget to, uh, have experienced a
lot of divorce in my life.
Uh, and there's like this rangeof any people, you know, the
(05:26):
claws are out, everything is sobleak, and then there's the
other side where it's like, hey,it's just like not working
anymore.
Right.
And when I was going through myprocess and I didn't feel like I
had any resentment, anger, andstrong negative emotions, uh,
and I was processing it, I waslike, there's such a better way
because there's like this legalentitlement, but then there's
(05:46):
this part of like, hey, this isperson you used to love, this is
person that you shared so manyexperiences with.
Like, do you really want like totry A, treat them like that, B,
go after them like that?
Right.
And every client, I imagine, isso different on their approach
and what their ultimate goal is.
But yeah, I love that Lawelevated focused on a lot on
like the compassion, theempathy, the the really like the
emotional side of what's goingthrough it as well, instead of
(06:07):
just being another suit andbriefcase and the target.
SPEAKER_04 (06:11):
Yeah, agreed.
That's the goal.
That's what we're going for.
And that's like the whole vibeof the place, as you can see,
right?
It's so that people feeldifferent, they feel treated
different.
Um, you know, you're focusing onthe human versus the outcome,
maybe.
And I think that generally leadsto a better outcome when you're
(06:32):
focusing on like your clients'like emotional needs, um,
physical needs, not justeverything purely financial or
you know, maybe hate driven.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:43):
Because it's it reminds me of so I had her name,
Zalerie Craycroft or Dr.
Craycroft on the podcast a fewepisodes ago.
She was an OBGYN for her entirecareer and just really felt like
I mean, the impetus for it wasthat she had a sister,
sister-in-law that was havingthese health issues, no one
could explain.
And she's looking at all ofthese like um natural medicine,
(07:06):
but also like holistic medicineof taking care of all path all
parts of your life to heal it.
And it wasn't until she startedlearning about that and seeing
in the application there thatshe's like, I feel like there's
this part of like my uh need toheal people, help people, but
the way that it's being doneisn't necessarily right.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (07:24):
And so hearing you talk about that, where it's not
just catering to all right,here's the legal um what you're
entitled to, what do you want usto do, like we are here to serve
you.
SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (07:34):
Um, but instead of being like, oh, that's tough.
Like it is hard.
It's a one of the hardestprocesses a lot of people have
ever go through in their life.
SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (07:42):
And so to think that there isn't like this emotional
internal battle as well, andyeah, and helping with that as
well.
Yeah, the whole part of the thepicture.
SPEAKER_04 (07:48):
Totally.
You have to take, and what wetry to do is take a holistic
like approach to it, right?
Is I'm just one piece of thepuzzle and my client's one piece
of the puzzle.
And there's so many otherprofessionals or things we can
put in place to try to make thewhole picture better, right?
Not just like what's going to beon that piece of paper, but
after the paper is signed, istomorrow gonna be better?
(08:11):
Are they gonna feel stronger?
Because the process breaks youdown.
So the goal is if you can comeout feeling better, right?
Then I feel like not only did Iget you hopefully a great
outcome in a hard situation, butif you can feel like a better,
stronger person, like, hey, Ijust went through something that
statistically is one of thehardest experiences you're gonna
(08:32):
go through, second to losing achild, right?
I made it and now I don't haveto feel beaten down by it.
I don't have to feel like mylife is over.
I can actually feel like withthe help of, you know, hopefully
Law Elevated and the otherprofessionals we've set you up
with that like tomorrow can bebetter.
Like I can be stronger, I can bemore confident, right?
Because people come through thatdoor so broken.
(08:53):
And I feel like part of my job,and that's why I feel like
family law is different, right?
I feel like we all have thislike obligation to not just
handle the paperwork, right?
But handle the human and try tomake them better, make them
stronger, because they are sobroken usually when they come to
you.
And I feel like if you approachit that way, like better client
(09:15):
care, like a lot of medicine,right?
They're trying to redefine howhow can we get back to where we
actually knew our patients'names, right?
Or we actually had time toreview a chart before we walked
in a room.
And I feel like there is aresurgence in medicine where
they're trying to get back tothat.
And I feel like law needs thattoo, in a big way.
And so that's like a huge focushere.
(09:36):
It's like we prioritize thehuman, not just, you know, the
statistic.
SPEAKER_03 (09:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's always interestingtalking to people who find
themselves at theseintersections of like, because I
mean, for the most part,especially once you get to
adulthood, life is prettystagnant until there's like
marriage, kid, uh, whateverevent that might be.
But be in a place where you findyourself at those moments so
much, uh usually not for thebest of circumstances.
Like you see a lot of humanemotions in a lot of that.
SPEAKER_04 (10:04):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:04):
And I remember when um like one book I read when I
was going through thattransition was um Conscious
Uncoupling.
And it talks about, I mean, alot of the emotional process,
but like things that I haddefinitely weren't new thoughts,
but like let's call it um youmean either reminders or another
like source of of validation tothat of being like, hey, like
(10:26):
there's something for you thatyou need to learn in this.
Like at the end of the day, yougot yourself into whatever
situation is and learn fromthat.
Also realize you're dealing withthe human.
Also deal, like realize thatthere's yeah, there's like
another part of this that needsto be healed and solved from, or
else patterns just keeprepeating over and over and over
again.
And even like some of myfriends, like I have one friend
(10:47):
who his in-laws have been goingthrough a divorce for like a
better part of a decade.
And it's just thing afteranother, she just kind of wants
to bleed him dry.
And I feel like there's a lot,and curious if you feel like
this is true or not, but peoplekind of use this as a way to
feel like it's gonna fixwhatever they're feeling, and so
if they can make this end withthe way that they want or drag
(11:09):
it on forever, or kind of Imean, maybe too ever walk, like
inflict this and paint on them,then get then they feel like
that will help.
SPEAKER_04 (11:16):
Yeah, retribution.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (11:19):
But let's back up because I'm curious about how
this all came to be.
So, born and raised in FortLauderdale, yeah, obviously
ready to be an attorney.
Uh, but I mean, just kidding.
But toss it out what it was liketo or like that path towards
knowing that you wanted to studylaw and go to law school.
SPEAKER_04 (11:35):
Yeah.
Um, I kind of always knew Iwanted to be a lawyer.
Um, didn't really focus on ittoo much until, you know, was
like a moment in your childhoodwhere you're like I always told
my dad, apparently, that like Iwant to be a lawyer.
And then my dad and mom, youknow, both really encouraged it.
But my mom's story is alwaysthat I'd get in these, you know,
(11:56):
little arguments with my dad,and my mom would yell down,
like, who's the adult downthere, you know?
And that they're like, Well, sheshould go to law school, she
should be a lawyer.
So I think there was someencouraging, right?
But I've definitely alwayswanted to do it.
And then um, halfway throughcollege, I stopped playing
volleyball and was like, if II'm not gonna be a professional
(12:16):
volleyball player, right?
Like that just wasn't in thecards.
And so I was like, I need toprobably focus on what I want to
be, which is law, and startedreally focusing on my grades.
SPEAKER_03 (12:26):
Where'd you go to school friendly at?
SPEAKER_04 (12:27):
Um, I went to Providence College and played
volleyball there.
And then I yeah, like was like,I need to focus, get good
grades.
Um, did got really good grades,applied to law school, went to
law school in Fort Lauderdale.
Um after law school, I was apublic defender for four years
in like the Fort Lauderdale,Miami area.
Yeah.
And then um moved here.
(12:50):
But that was my entry into law.
Um, all through law school, Iknew I wanted to do litigation.
Okay.
And I always was pulled tocriminal defense work because I
think, you know, I love familylaw, but I have such respect for
criminal defense attorneys.
I think that that's what makes,you know, part of the United
States, our country, ourcountry, is that you're innocent
(13:11):
until you're proven guilty.
And I feel like publicdefenders, criminal defense
attorneys are kind of protectorsof the constitution and make law
and hold people accountable.
So I always thought it was areally brilliant um part of law
to get into.
And so that was my you know,entry into the legal world, and
it was like the most amazingexperience ever.
SPEAKER_03 (13:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause then there's you know,especially in litigation,
there's so many people who Imean, you don't have to name any
names around the world, butthere's always people that's
like, oh, they're like justslangy people.
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (13:45):
Then the law, I mean, a lot of people say in the
legal system sometimes can be apay-to-play type of avenue, but
I also think that there's somuch good in I mean, public
defense, because it's usuallynot what most people who are
looking to law to law as a wayto make a lot of money, which
but they're also the people wholike, like you said, are on the
front lines of the constitution,fight for people who usually
(14:06):
won't be fought for.
Yeah.
And um also I grew up watchingDaredevil.
Did you ever watch the showDaredevil where he's a public
defender?
No.
It always comes to mind.
But I I'll never forget a quickside tangent.
Um, I was just home after mymission.
SPEAKER_01 (14:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (14:21):
And I got called into jury duty.
Oh, and I was like, it's okay.
Like my even my mom and mysisters are like, there's no way
you'll like actually make it ona jury.
So I'm like, yeah, it's fine, Igot stuff to do.
I'm in college.
SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (14:31):
So I go down and it's like there's a couple
hundred of you, and then nextthing you know, you start to get
whittled down and whipped down,and all of a sudden, you're what
they want.
I'm a college kid for just likethis mind to be molded that
hasn't been molded yet.
SPEAKER_04 (14:43):
Exactly.
So or you're in college and youhave more of an open-minded
perspective than some adults whohave had lots of maybe tarnished
experiences.
I would go for you if I was acriminal sensor.
Yeah, I would you would be on mytop list to have on the jury.
SPEAKER_03 (14:58):
It's kind of like the opposite of getting picked
last in gym class.
SPEAKER_04 (15:02):
Like it's like, yeah, we'll take the fight and
you know they're fighting overyou.
If essentially one side wantsyou and the other side wants to
strike you, you're like, theyliked me.
SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
Yeah, specifically.
Can you say that louder, please?
SPEAKER_03 (15:12):
Thank you.
Everybody in the back.
Uh-huh.
So I end up on this jury panel,which is like wild experience.
That yeah, I don't wish anybodyto do it because it's not like
anything you ever want to do,but it's fun to no one wants to,
right.
And because I remember when theyfirst called us, we go in the
back room or whatever, yeah, andno one's talking, not a single
word.
Very like this is 2012.
So a couple people had phones,uh-huh.
(15:34):
And I just gone back from mymission.
So I'm just ready to talk toanything.
Yeah, I guess.
So I'm like the first timethey're like tapping my knee,
just wanting to talk about it.
We go, they do the first stuffor whatever, and then we come
back.
And the second time I was like,all right, I can't do this
anymore.
Let's go around the room,introduce ourselves.
Like, I can't do this.
Right.
And so I'd make everybody goaround the room, introduce
themselves, and then we all likestarted talking.
SPEAKER_04 (15:55):
Amazing.
SPEAKER_03 (15:55):
Which in hindsight, what the hell?
Like, yeah, wild.
Neanderth would do that amillion years ago.
SPEAKER_04 (16:00):
Well, it makes sense what you're doing now, though.
I see it.
SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
I it's it's good to know I don't have a fear of
public speaking.
SPEAKER_04 (16:05):
You right.
Totally no, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:08):
But I'll never forget.
So there's this attorney thatwas the public defender, and
flat fast forward uh four yearslater, I was in this elevator in
this um uh building for aninternship I was doing, and I
was like, I know that voice.
Well, it's him, and everybodygot out the elevator.
We were going to the top floors,and I'm like, hey, did you
defend a case that was this,this, this, this, and this?
(16:28):
He's like, Yeah, yeah, like Iwas on the jury.
He's like, No way, like, oh,like, good to see you.
Yeah.
So yeah, it was funny to goaround.
But okay, anyway, back to backto the main event.
Um, so you start in publicdefense and you get all of that,
but then you know you wanted toeventually make your way back or
to litigation in defense.
(16:49):
Uh-huh.
I mean, at what point did I meanthis come into picture?
Because I mean, not onlychanging to family law from that
is different.
Well, yes, it is family law,just litigation and family law.
But I mean, talk to me aboutwhat led to you wanting to not
only start your own practice,but start a practice that has, I
mean, a spin to it that you'renot used to seeing.
SPEAKER_04 (17:08):
Sure.
Um, well, what happened was is Imoved to Utah and had to take
the bar again.
So no reciprocity, meaningyou're licensed in Florida, you
can practice law in Florida, butwe don't recognize that license
here in Utah because Floridawon't recognize Utah attorneys.
So Florida's a really hard barto become a part of.
Um, it's super competitive.
(17:30):
There's a lot of lawyers, it's areally hard bar exam.
And so Florida is this like noreciprocity state.
You have to take Florida's testto be a lawyer there.
So, because of that, otherstates are like, well, then you
can't just come here and be alawyer here.
If you're gonna make Utahattorneys do the test, we're
gonna make you do it too.
So I had to come here and studyfor the test again.
(17:50):
Um, and while I was studying forthe test, and this was like five
years later, so some of itfresh, but like most of it not,
right?
You're like reteaching yourselfit.
SPEAKER_03 (18:00):
It's a lot of numbers and details that tend to
fade with years.
SPEAKER_04 (18:03):
Oh, for sure.
And law changes and they add newtopics to the bar that weren't
on the bar five years ago thatyou have to like reteach
yourself.
So, not like my favorite time inlife.
And I said to my uh thenboyfriend, who's now my husband,
the reason I moved out here.
I'm like, I'm not doing thisagain.
So, like, you know, we're eitherUtah baby corporate law.
(18:23):
Yeah, yeah.
I like this is not happeningagain, but it worked out well.
But um I get to step.
No.
SPEAKER_03 (18:30):
So what brought you to Utah specifically?
SPEAKER_04 (18:33):
Um, my husband lived out here.
So we went to high schooltogether, but like didn't date
in high school but knew eachother.
Um, and then Christmas, everyonewould go to the same bar in
town, and Fort Lauderdale's kindof a small town once you get
used to it, and everyone'sthere, and we just reconnected
again, and he was already livingout here and so started dating
(18:54):
long distance.
And then after a year of that, Idecided to move out here and
yeah, so had to take the baragain.
I wasn't gonna give up being alawyer, so had to take the bar
again and took it, passed it.
Um yeah, nice, yeah.
First try, thank God.
Cause I don't know if I wouldhave gone back to that.
SPEAKER_03 (19:15):
I've had to take like uh SEC like finance.
Yeah.
And if anyone was like, hey, youhave to do that again, I'd be
like, no.
SPEAKER_04 (19:23):
Right.
Yes.
No, it's a hard no.
I'm never taking a bar again.
So glad that's behind me.
Um and yeah, so I was at a pointwhere you're like, what am I
gonna do?
Am I going to get into privatecriminal defense work after I
passed this bar exam?
Um, am I going to pivot?
And I found it as a really goodopportunity to pivot.
(19:45):
And I loved criminal defensework.
Again, I think it's like one ofthe most noble fields you can
get into as a practitioner, butit's stressful.
And a lot of attorneys think I'mcrazy when I say that because
family law is looked at as likea really stressful field of law,
which it is.
But criminal defense was wasstressful.
You know, you're in court everyday.
Like there's not a day reallythat you're out of court.
SPEAKER_03 (20:07):
Um because like I grew up with my mom being a
pediatrician.
And when I was thinking aboutjobs, I was like, I don't want
to be in a place where peopleare like, again, going through
some of the worst times of theirlife, bad energy, like all of
these things.
Right.
So in a similar way to be like,Yeah, I'm gonna go be at the
courtroom all the time.
SPEAKER_04 (20:21):
Oh, yeah.
And and and building your way upthrough the public, you know,
defender world is getting moreserious cases, right?
So you prove that you're doingwell with like juvenile court
where I started, and then theymove you up to felony court or
misdemeanor court, and fromthere you get higher level
felony offenses.
So what you're dealing with,it's all heavy, but it becomes
(20:43):
heavier and heavier and heavier.
So, you know, you're dealingwith people that are facing, you
know, 30 years plus in prisonfor the rest of their life as
you're as I was leaving.
No pressure.
Right.
And that's a lot of pressure.
And um also, you know, theymight lose and besides go to
prison for the rest of theirlife.
(21:04):
The f their family has foreverconsequences from maybe their
father being incarcerated, theirson, who knows?
Um, and so I knew I wanted topivot from that a little bit and
not be in court every single dayand not have like that kind of
weight on your shoulders.
Um, and I was still put prettyyoung, you know, when I moved
out here, I was 30.
(21:24):
Um, so it was a good point totransition.
And I thought, okay, well, whatcan I do that's still I'm in
court because I love court, Ilove litigation.
And that's the world that publicdefense showed me and taught me
was that, you know, you buildthese amazing litigation skills
that a lot of young attorneysdon't get.
Because most young attorneyschase the big paycheck out of
(21:45):
law school.
They want to work for the fancylaw firm downtown that will give
them a nice paycheck, but won'tgive them experience, right?
They're gonna make them a paperpusher and maybe they get to
argue a motion here and there,but they never get to do the big
trial.
And it takes them years in theircareer, maybe 10 years, to
finally get to where they thinkthey want to be.
(22:07):
So there's lots of ceilings inlaw.
If you kind of go in with thatmentality of I just want the
paycheck or I want to wear asuit every day, I want to be at
the fancy firm.
And when you go into publicdefense or prosecution work, you
you know you're not gonna makethe money, but you know you're
going to have invaluableexperience that you get to carry
with you the rest of yourcareer.
(22:27):
And it is, you're in court everyday.
So you become a good litigator,right?
Hopefully, that's the goal.
And you learn evidence and youbecome dangerous in a courtroom.
And so that's what that gave me.
And I'm like, how can I pivotthat?
It's gotta be such a funconfidence.
It's fun.
It's a it's great.
Like that kind of it's great.
(22:48):
It's super fun.
SPEAKER_03 (22:49):
If hear me out, if like comedy is like a thing
where someone would be like,hey, like, go hop on stage.
You think you're funny?
Go, go, go make people laugh.
I don't like being in acourtroom is like, oh, you think
you're good at arguing?
You think you're a good likeseeker?
Yeah, go make your point, makeyour point.
SPEAKER_04 (23:04):
Right.
And that's where I was like, howcan I kind of use this dangerous
skill set in a way that it's notthe exact same thing as what I
was doing?
And family law came to mind islike you're not in court every
single day, um, but you get togo to court enough and you still
get to help people because thelast thing I want to do is like
sit at a desk and just pushpaper all day.
Like that's not for me.
(23:25):
Um, and I couldn't do that afterworking like so closely with
people and families for fouryears, like I had to continue
that um just in a way that waslike better balanced.
And so family law really hit forme in doing that.
And then um, I also realizedafter getting into it for a
couple of years that a lot offamily law practitioners don't
(23:47):
have that litigation background.
Um, so it it's become a good wayfor me to kind of use that skill
set um to my advantage, youknow, and to my clients'
advantage.
In that when we do get to go tocourt and we do litigate, it's
something I'm super passionateabout and I love it and and I'm
(24:08):
good at it, you know.
And a lot of family lawpractitioners just don't get to
use evidence a lot.
We don't, they don't get to makethe big objections, they don't
get to do jury trials.
So I get to kind of use thatbackground to my to my
advantage, my clients'advantage, and help them better
their outcome in a courtroom.
SPEAKER_03 (24:26):
Interesting.
Because I had thought about thatbefore, because like again, like
you probably know better thanme, but X percent of um uh
family law ends up in trial.
Correct, small amount.
And so if I've been in familylaw my entire life, I'm like,
I've gone to court five timescompared to you.
It's like this is the 50, likewhatever mac order of magnitude
(24:47):
that that would be.
Right.
I'd be like, thank god I evercompared the person who's like,
I know when I remember likethat's like the the litigation
for dummies books not on thetable.
It's like I don't know.
SPEAKER_04 (24:55):
Yeah, well.
Yeah, and and everyone, youknow, and that's the great thing
is like the bar here is awesome.
And the people I work with, Ialways say work with.
You obviously you're workingagainst them, but most people
are super like-minded that getinto family law, and then it's
like, let's help people, let'sproblem solve.
Litigation is not usually thebest route for these families or
these individuals, which istrue.
(25:16):
And I try to avoid it for myclients as well.
But what I like is when we doget to go, it's kind of like
that's when the gloves come off,right?
Is it's no longer um a problemsolving world.
It's it's a world of legal art,really.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
So talk to me about if you go back to the pre-family
law litigation that you used todo compared to the attorney you
are now.
I mean, how do you think you'vegrown?
How do you think you're you'velike changed your perspective on
the legal system or just likehow that's shaped you?
SPEAKER_04 (25:50):
Sure.
Um, I definitely think familylaw has changed me in that you
can't be as aggressive, right?
Um, a lot of people have thismindset of, oh, I want like the
bulldog attorney, right?
Um, I want somebody who's gonnarip my ex apart and things like
that.
And that's not really whatfamily law is.
(26:11):
And if you go in with thatmindset, sure you'll find an
attorney like that.
But the goal is to problemsolve, right?
And to avoid litigation.
And again, when you're inlitigation, sure, the gloves,
the gloves come off.
But one thing you learn as Ithink a public defender or
criminal defense attorney isyou're in order.
Like you're there to tell astory, right?
You're there to tell yourclient's side of the story and
(26:33):
and hopefully show that this,the state, the prosecutor can't
prove beyond a reasonable doubtyour client did it.
And that's because you'reconvincing them of a story.
And I feel like that's what weget to do as litigating
attorneys, right?
You get to be your client'svoice, you get to um hopefully
convince the judge that yourclient's story with the help of
(26:55):
evidence is the correct storyand the judge should rule in
favor of your client.
So that background of justconstantly trying to prove a
story, um, I think helps a lotfrom the criminal world into the
family law world.
And just, you know, I'm here totell you why this is this
version of the facts is correctversus the other side.
(27:18):
And I think sometimes if youdon't have that experience of
trying to persuade, right, ajury of of a certain side of the
story, it's it's harder tocommunicate it as well.
SPEAKER_03 (27:29):
It's wild to me like the because I graduated from
college eight years ago?
A little over eight years ago.
And it's interesting because Iremember when everyone was
picking their majors, thinkingit was like the most important
thing in the world, second tolike what cl how's he got picked
on in Harry Potter.
It's I would always give peoplecrowd the communications majors,
or especially the strategiccommunication majors.
(27:50):
Uh-huh.
And it's funny now because likeeverything that I've learned
about um, I mean, how to getpeople to do what you want, how
to get things done, how to getpeople on your side, it's all
comes out of strategiccommunication.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:05):
And it's it's interesting to not realize how
much of a skill that was until Irealized how much it mattered
and seeing the people who got, Imean, the promotion, the
everything that they wanted to.
It wasn't just about when, oh,well, just buckle down and do
your time.
It's like, no, no, no, they'regood communicators.
Right.
And in the same way, like, Imean, if you're litigating doing
litigation, it it is astorytelling.
It is that this idea of what youwant them to know or think.
SPEAKER_04 (28:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and you know, articulatelycommunicating that to benefit
your client.
Um, yeah, it's it's superimportant.
It's one of the most importantthings we do as a litigator.
SPEAKER_03 (28:41):
Yeah.
So you start the firm.
Yeah.
Um you walk me through how likethe Avengers got assembled or
how the team is has cometogether.
Because I mean, it's I mean,obviously, not just you now,
right?
But talk to a guy how that grewup when you some of the people
that have made it what it is forthat.
SPEAKER_04 (28:56):
Yeah.
Um, the team is definitely whywe're a strong firm for sure.
Um, and how it got assembled isreally, again, me believing that
like we have to get back tobetter client care.
And that's like always been mytop priority is how can we
reformat this equation, let'ssay, or how can we look at it
(29:18):
differently?
Law, right?
And most people, when you walkinto a law office, you and I are
talking about this.
It's like stale, it's boring.
It's a lot of diplomas on awall, it's a lot of law books.
Um, and I wanted to very muchget away from that because I
think that's separating theattorney from the client or
trying to create a dynamic ofI'm the attorney, you know, um,
(29:42):
and I'm gonna, you know, fixeverything.
And I'm this superior being typeattitude that a lot of, you
know, attorneys across the boardhave.
But that attitude gets away froma good, I think, rapport with
your client.
And so I wanted to create anatmosphere.
Where it was client focused,right?
Like, how do we redefine orreapproach how we deal with our
(30:08):
clients and have them come intoa space that's bright and
cheery?
Um, have them come into a bunchof lawyers that you maybe
sometimes can't tell who's theattorney, who's the paralegal,
who's the staff.
And that's that's how we wantit.
Like, you're not gonna come inhere and find a suit.
Um the only time you're gonnafind a suit is because maybe we
(30:28):
just left trial or the courtroomor something like that.
But it is a laid back, invitingatmosphere because the goal is
to create a relationship withour clients and not just look at
them as a case, right?
Or, you know, the medicalanalogy, like a chart that maybe
you look at before you go in totalk with them.
Like I wanted to change thatdynamic.
(30:50):
And so assembling a team that,you know, have the same
viewpoint um versus hourlybilling, for example.
Like a lot of attorneys um focuson, you know, how many billable
hours can you get.
SPEAKER_03 (31:04):
I mean, it becomes like a KPI for the entire firm.
Like you have to have so manyhours uh build hours and you
have to go find so many buildhours.
SPEAKER_04 (31:11):
Yes.
And that takes again away from Ithink what's important in the
value system I'm trying tocreate here.
And I think law needs to getback to in general, is you got
to get away from that billablehour mindset because it takes
people away from the human,right?
And so here, like any of theattorneys, there is not a
(31:31):
mandatory like billable hourthat these attorneys have to
hit.
Because if you do that, you'reyou're literally focusing on
that and not focusing on what Iwant to focus on, which is the
human that walks through thedoor.
And so that has been my priorityhere in starting Law Elevated is
we're gonna focus on the humanand we're gonna kind of change
the traditional law landscape ofhow offices operate so that we
(31:56):
can do that and not just saywe're doing it, right?
SPEAKER_03 (31:59):
And one thing I want to talk about in the slide pivot
is Utah and Salt Lake have suchlike a unique um, I mean, let's
focus on like the divorce sideof things.
Like it's so unique because Imean, people get married young,
which people get married young,and people I would assume would
get divorced younger.
Maybe.
And so even with me, like Idivorced when I was 32.
SPEAKER_01 (32:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:20):
And like I had this thought that I'm going to be
this scarlet letter.
No one's gonna want to talk tome.
If they do, it's gotta havethese answers.
And if you don't answereverything perfectly, then
you're out.
And then all of a sudden I findmyself dating.
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah,cool.
Anyway, tell me more about thewhat?
No.
So I'm curious.
In I mean, especially beingsomeone from out of state coming
(32:42):
here and seeing some of thesetrends, rates, um, or just
clientele differences.
Like, what do you see that makesUtah unique in that aspect?
SPEAKER_04 (32:50):
Yeah, I think Utah is super unique in that there's
plenty of people getting marriedyoung, right?
Like that is not something Igrew up with, or a lot of my
friends did in Fort Lauderdale,right?
Like most of my friends havekids in our 30s.
Like that's when we startedhaving kids in Utah.
You know, you're very, you'relike old for having children
(33:12):
starting a family in your 30s.
So that dynamic is is different,right?
And took some getting used to.
But um I think there's plentyof, you know, young couples out
here that are obviously likegetting divorced at a young age
and they're remarrying also at ayoung age.
And so it it lends to uniquedynamics when it comes to the
initial divorce and thenpost-divorce life, because when
(33:35):
you're remarrying and you havekids, maybe your new spouse has
kids, that can create a lot ofdynamics that didn't exist, you
know, when you got divorced thatnow you're bringing to the table
in, you know, this kind of newphase of your life where Utah
definitely has that more than Iexperienced in Fort Lauderdale
for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (33:53):
Yeah, it's a it is a very unique one because like
even a lot of my friends thatgot married young, had kids
young, and then got divorcedyoung, then there's this new
dynamic of things.
And so my sister got divorcedbefore I did.
And it was fun to see her justlike, I mean, use that as a
stepping sort of reallychampioning herself to be her
best self, yeah, but then foundher like person and to see them
(34:15):
I mean, not only have like therelationship of themselves, but
then also being like, okay, likeI have my kids, you have your
kids, there's always gonna besomething else to think through.
I didn't realize that until Iwas dating someone who had kids,
and they were like, and uh,there's like an epiphany I had
because like my sister was evenlike she's like, Oh, think about
dating someone with kids.
I was like, What do you mean?
Like they're great, but I couldbe like the dad that stepped up,
(34:37):
whatever that could be.
But then I was like, Oh, butthere's like this part of you'll
never be the first priority,which is it's not a good thing,
it's not a bad thing, it's athing, and there's something you
have to come together with.
And so again, like when I wasdating before I got married, I
was meaning called like the endof college and like very
different time than likemid-30s, where there's a lot of
responsibilities and a lot ofthings have to get done.
(34:57):
And there's this whole block ofa day that kind of gets taken
out of any time that you canactually interact with each
other, plus all the otherresponsibilities you might have.
And then all of a sudden youthrow in like this kid aspect of
like, oh, like a lot, so littleman, like, hi, you know, yeah,
what do I do with this?
And like thankfully, I've beenaround enough kids that like
that it's not like I can't bearound child, but yeah, it's
these unique aspects that youdon't really see a lot of other
(35:21):
places.
SPEAKER_04 (35:21):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
I have two brothers and they'reyou know single in Fort
Lauderdale, and um, it'sdifferent, right?
I don't they're not, you know,dating or even like hanging out
with women with kids yet, butthey're both in their early and
mid-30s.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (35:39):
Yeah, very interesting spot.
But yeah, but it's fun.
I like the uniqueness of it.
I like the like one thing thatI've come to appreciate more is
the connection that can happenover shared experience, which is
like the broad umbrella, butthen there's like these other
very specific experiences thatif you share with someone,
there's like so many steps, it'slike shoots and ladders.
You just went up a ladder tolike almost win the game because
(36:02):
that experience is so unique andit's hard to find people to have
that.
SPEAKER_00 (36:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:06):
And so in my experience, like divorce has
been one.
Like, is if I can talk tosomeone about it or or like
seeing them in like the firstemotion of like I've been, I
know you feel like it'll getbetter, but it's gonna suck for
a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:17):
And then also, I mean, just leaving Mormonism is
like that.
Was another one.
Like, if I sit and hear thatsomeone else's ex-mormon, we can
sit there and talk, and like 20minutes later, I'm like, oh
yeah, this is like this is mybest guy.
Like, yeah, you just connect itover.
SPEAKER_04 (36:28):
For a lot to connect over.
SPEAKER_03 (36:29):
So it is fun to have like that's the I guess silver
lining that I see a lot of thetime is is it helps with a lot
of connector I mean, and intoday's world, it's connections,
one of the hardest things thatwe struggle with is a
population.
SPEAKER_04 (36:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03 (36:42):
Um anything else, should we cover?
SPEAKER_04 (36:45):
Whatever you think.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (36:48):
So Park City.
Yeah.
So I'm always curious of likewhy people pick Park City
specifically, because I mean,don't get me wrong, beautiful
place.
I've spent a ton of time here,but sometimes lacks some of like
the amenities of being in, Imean, I guess like a tertiary
city of the United States ofAmerica.
But I mean, what keeps you uphere in Park City specifically
compared to being in any otherpart you could reasonably
(37:10):
commute to or move an office to?
SPEAKER_04 (37:12):
Yeah.
Um, well, when we moved here, westarted in Salt Lake and then
moved to Sugar House, which wasgreat.
We were younger, we had a lot offun.
Um, but I think being like twokids, people from a beach town,
you know, we both grew up in abeach town.
So it was like you want theaccess to if you can't have the
ocean, at least have greataccess to the mountains.
(37:35):
Um, because my husband and Iboth like to get out there and
recreate.
He grew up surfing, so um, andskiing.
So he was super into the, youknow, being up here.
He taught me how to ski and nowI love it.
So we kind of just reached thispoint where we're like, this is
before housing prices in SaltLake and Park City were like
(37:56):
insane.
Um, before houses in Sugar Housewere like, you know, almost a
million dollars for like what aone-bathroom house, like crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (38:04):
It was your six-bed, one bathroom house.
Yeah.
Stand up all the way in thebeach today.
SPEAKER_04 (38:08):
Yes.
So it was before all of that.
And thankfully, and we decided,okay, if we're gonna stay here,
we want to be up in themountains.
We want to be close to biking,hiking, skiing.
Um, not that it's a bad commuteat all between Salt Lake and
Park City, but that was just ourchoice.
Um, and so we moved up hereabout nine years ago now.
(38:30):
And um, yeah, and we've loved itever since.
We absolutely love living uphere, being part of this
community.
Um, and it's still it's such amellow commute.
Like a lot of times people thinkI'm crazy.
Like, how do you live in ParkCity and go to court in Salt
Lake sometimes?
And it's it's nothing, right?
And for I think most of theUnited States, right, a
(38:51):
30-minute commute to work is nota big deal.
No.
Um, but here people think it'slike a long distance, but it's
not.
It's it's super mellow and youget to drive up and down the
canyon, which is beautiful.
So yeah, it's been it's been anamazing move for us and we love
it.
SPEAKER_03 (39:07):
Yeah, I've always appreciated appreciated Park
City because like in highschool, one of my really good
friends, um, well, I met areally good friend, and he lived
up here with his mom, and hisdad lived up in Midway.
So it spent a lot of time inSummon County to begin with.
But it was fun because like Iwould spend kind of like down in
Salt Lake school, whatever, andthen I come up here in the to
stay at his mom's house for theweekend.
(39:27):
It was such a cool experiencefor kids because like you have
the bus, you can kind of gowherever you wanted to, and you
know people have e-bikes andthat's a whole nother topic.
But um, it was just so fun toget used to it because like
because like don't get me wrong,like when I was in high school,
I mean we'd slot school and goskiing like junior, senior year.
Yeah, but it was different thanthem being like, oh, school's
out.
We had like an hour and a halfif you had like let's go skiing.
(39:49):
I'm like, oh, that's like rightthere.
You literally hop on the bus,right?
And like three-ish stops later,you're at the bottom of PCMR.
SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:56):
And I mean, obviously, there's like a very
the it was like the first time Isaw like that levels of wealth
sometimes.
I'm like, yeah, oh God.
SPEAKER_04 (40:04):
Yeah, yeah, there's that too up here for sure.
But I I envision it being a coolplace to grow up as a kid that
you can access skiing, go everyday if you want.
Um, and you know, I don't thinkthere's many places where we
have a four-year-old and she'salready a really good skier, and
she's already a really goodbiker and has her little, you
know, front bake front brakes onher bike that like I totally
(40:29):
didn't have as a kid.
You know, I had like my trainingwheels until I was six or
something.
Like, so it's it's such a coolplace to grow up and see these
kids just do, you know, suchkind of gnarly and fun things at
such a young age.
SPEAKER_03 (40:41):
Yeah, like watching my niece and nephew go through
similar things because like Iknew I was one of those kids,
but you don't realize it whenyou are that kid.
Right.
You have to see it like in thatthird person when you get older.
Yeah.
And so like it was the same skiseason like four years ago, and
like we're on the bunny hill andwe're doing pizza, and then I I
mean that was probably in earlyNovember whenever um I remember
(41:01):
as a solitude opened, and thenlike fast forward to the end of
the season, my sister's like,Hey, it's um they want you to
come ski with them.
Yeah, you go to your valley,will you?
I'm like, Yeah, you know, I canhave a slow day or whatever.
And then all of a sudden I'mlike, What happened?
Like, right, they just havethis, and then also the thought
of learning how to ski as anadult when like I actually have
fears and like it was yeah, itwas a lot.
SPEAKER_04 (41:21):
Yeah, I I didn't ski for the first time until let's
see, I was probably 29 when myhusband was teaching me then.
But yeah, I'm so glad he did,and he was a great teacher, he
was super patient, and I love itnow.
It's great.
I'm super thankful.
But yeah, hard learning whenyou're in your late 20s, early
30s for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (41:40):
Yeah, anybody who learned after the age of like 20
am I I don't know if I couldhave gone through it.
Right.
I had a lot of tears on a skihill.
My grandpa's saying whether wewere water skiing or snow skiing
was shut up and ski.
Right.
And just do it.
Then these like I'd be crying onthe side of like the Tavo
Sobird, and I like no, like I'mlike yelling at myself, cussing
(42:02):
as like a six-year-old.
Yeah, everyone just staring,waiting, I'm like, there's
nothing I can do.
I guess I just have to go.
SPEAKER_04 (42:07):
Right, right.
Wasn't that fun?
Let's keep going.
SPEAKER_03 (42:08):
Like yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (42:10):
It was it was there was definitely some some crying
moments for sure, but all inall, got through it and now you
know it's a lifetime sport,which is so great.
SPEAKER_03 (42:20):
And then the commute side, like I love when people in
Utah think that we have trafficand like bad commutes.
Yes, like don't get me wrong,like I used to work in Lehigh as
people who work in tech and livein Salt Lake do.
And I mean it was kind of nicefor a while because I was like,
oh, it's 30 minutes.
Like I get through a podcast,get through some of a book,
whatever that might be.
(42:41):
And then I eventually startedtaking front runner there and
back and bought a scooter, so Igot like five minutes scooter
ride to the office and then justwork on the train, and that was
that was a unique time.
But um, it's wild when because Iinterned in DC in college.
Oh, cool, and hearing of theircommutes, like this bone guy
knew three hours every day, wokeup at three, so he could be at
(43:02):
the office by seven and thenleave at five, get home by
eight, and do it all over again.
SPEAKER_04 (43:07):
The northeast is all like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:09):
Like I would I I can't like even fathom lot like
mentally, like being like, I'mokay with this.
SPEAKER_04 (43:16):
Right.
No, I I think so, you know, thetown I lived in is Lauderdale by
the Sea, Florida, which is just,you know, it's a 15-minute drive
to the Fort Lauderdalecourthouse.
But because there's so muchtraffic, it would take me 45
minutes a lot of days.
So like that is zero distance.
Like I would it would be wayfaster to get on a bike and I
(43:37):
would get there, right?
But that's why this commute parkcity to Salt Lake is really
nothing.
It's it's easy, it's not bad.
There's hardly traffic.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:46):
Love it.
SPEAKER_04 (43:47):
I love it too.
SPEAKER_03 (43:49):
Well, before we wrap up, want to ask the two
questions I always ask everyguest.
Um, number one, if you couldhave someone on the Small Lake
City podcast and hear more abouttheir story and what they're up
to, who would you want to hearfrom?
SPEAKER_04 (44:00):
I don't know.
Ask me the second one and I'llthink about it.
SPEAKER_03 (44:02):
And if people want to find more information on Law
Elevated or get in contact,what's the best place to go to
for that?
SPEAKER_04 (44:08):
Um, our website.
So at law elevated.com.
Yeah.
And Instagram, same thing.
Follow us at Law Law Elevated.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:19):
Easy voice.
SPEAKER_04 (44:20):
Yeah.
Hmm.
Who else should you have on thepod?
Oh, I think another great personto talk to.
He's awesome.
Um, if you want another lawyer,especially when he's like
criminal defense, um, StevenGrayson, he's up here.
His office is super close.
He's great.
Um, him and I have workedtogether on so many cases.
(44:42):
I refer all my criminal cases tohim.
Um, he's not just like a greatlawyer, because he is, but he's
such a great human who's justsuper down to earth.
I think him and I totally likethink the same way when it comes
to how we approach law and ourclients, just like a really, you
know, realistic humanexperience.
(45:02):
His clients all love him.
He's such an easy person toconnect to.
Um, like the exact opposite ofan arrogant criminal defense
attorney.
He's he's great.
I would I would put him on.
Cool.
And I think you would have a lotof fun talking to him too.
Sounds like it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (45:17):
Got a lot of questions for him.
SPEAKER_04 (45:18):
Yeah.
He's he's seen a lot, so I can'tyeah, I can't imagine.
SPEAKER_03 (45:24):
Because like there's certain jobs where you go home,
like, oh my gosh, you'll neverguess what Christina did at the
office.
She ate my lunch again.
Right.
But then there's the people wholike my cousin works in the Air
Force in Idaho, and like he justcomes home and can't talk about
a single thing that he did.
That's so hard.
But then also like coming home,you're like, how was working?
Like, you don't want to know.
SPEAKER_04 (45:43):
Right.
unknown (45:43):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (45:44):
I'm gonna keep this one to myself respectfully.
SPEAKER_04 (45:46):
Oh yeah, there's a lot, but I mean, there's a lot
he can't talk about, but butalso I could see the other side
of things where I mean, in theproliferation of crime podcasts
and everything in between, we'relike, tell me all the tea,
what's been going on?
SPEAKER_03 (45:59):
Right.
Give me the details.
SPEAKER_04 (46:00):
And he and he was a prosecutor for a while and then
switched to criminal defense anddoes it up here.
So he just gets to deal with alot of unique stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (46:11):
Love it.
SPEAKER_04 (46:11):
Yeah, yeah, and he's seen both sides.
So it's always cool, I think, totalk to someone who's been a
prosecutor and is now a criminaldefense attorney because they've
had to approach thingsdifferently.
But talk about a dangerouscriminal defense attorney when
they can read the mind of aprosecutor.
SPEAKER_03 (46:28):
So been on both sides.
SPEAKER_04 (46:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (46:30):
He's a good one.
Yeah, reach out.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much.
It was a great drive up here.
I'm excited for my drive down.
Appreciation was great.
Good.
Yeah.
Anybody who is looking for somefamily law services and wants a
little bit more humaninteraction along the way,
definitely check it out.
SPEAKER_04 (46:46):
Yeah, give us a call.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (46:48):
Thank you.
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