Vault Episode 8: John Darley

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:53):
What is up, everybody, and welcome back to
another episode of the SmallLake City Podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Nielsen, andthis week we have another vault
episode before we kick offseason two of the Small Lake
City Podcast.
And the guest this week is JohnDarley.
Now, John Darley is an artist,one of the biggest up-and-coming
artists and portrait artistscoming out of Utah.
Now, John Darley is someone whoI have known for the better part

(01:16):
of 30 years.
We grew up together in theavenues, went to middle school
and high school, but that'swhere our paths really went two
different ways.
I went to college, he went andpursued art in New York and
around the country, and reallyhas developed an amazing career
for himself and a lot oftraction from a lot of renowned
groups and a lot of accolades.
So a lot to learn from him.
It's a great story of hearingwhat it is from someone to go

(01:38):
from struggling artist to reallygetting all the recognition that
he deserves.
So let's jump into it.
And this is definitely one thatyou all are going to enjoy.
So here's so here's the funthing about us, and like you is
particular, is when I thinkabout my earliest childhood
memories, you were the firstcharacter to show up as a peer.
Yeah.

(01:59):
And this might sound a little uhmacabre, macabre, is that the
word?
Anyway, but everybody else who'sbeen, I mean, let's say like a
closer friend at that time, haveboth passed away.
Like someone who'd lived twodoors down from me, they
unfortunately had a boatingaccident, died.
Then I have another friend whowas one of my like first like

(02:20):
true like best friends, and heunfortunately passed away.
And so when I was like preparingfor this, I'm like, John is like
the person that ha has beenthere from the beginning, but
then it's fun because like youjumped around from time to time.
Cause then you moved down tolike like around Bonneville,
like uh Yellcrest area.
I was still in the avenues, andthen I could move down there,
and you're at you into I'm atBonneville, we go to Clayton,

(02:43):
uh, yeah, Clayton, and thenyou're there.

SPEAKER_03 (02:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:45):
And then like it's just kind of like this.
Oh, like hey, John's back.

SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
Like, what's going on?
I popped around, I actually bounbounced around more than that.
Um, I went to holiday.

SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
So, so here's here's kind of actually I don't want to
go over it twice.
So let's okay.
So, born and raised in Salt LakeCity, Utah.

SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
No.
No, oh so that's that's let'sstart there.
So, yeah, no, I was um born inBoston, Massachusetts.
Um and so my and I lived therefor only like a year, and then
we moved to Florida, which umwas great, great try childhood.
It was the sticks.
I'm the youngest of five, um,and there's about a six-year gap

(03:26):
between me and the nextyoungest.
So you're the youngest, right,Eric?
Yes, yes, baby.
The youngest always kind of islike your parents are kind of
tired, you know, and um andespecially when there's a
six-year gap.
Um and uh Florida was afantastic childhood just because
I was in the woods all day, andit was like the woods, woods,

(03:48):
right?
Like water moccasins and umalligators everywhere.
Um and that I was just like awake up and my goal was to like
catch frogs.
It was great.
Um I even caught a gator when Iwas five.
It was great, it was about threethree feet.
Mom, look what I got.
Yeah, they freaked out.

(04:08):
Um, but uh but my my family,what happened was the reason why
we popped around Salt Lake abunch is my my dad, I I don't
know exactly what was happeningwith his job, but um I think
maybe his boss was doingsomething sketchy.
I don't know the details.
Like now that I'm older, thisthis doesn't make a ton of

(04:29):
sense.
Yeah.
Um, but he he left that job andum but and he was looking for a
new job.
Um, and then it was it wasreally crappy.
There was something thathappened on our house.
We were trying to sell it, butthere was a water law that
changed, and it caused everyonein the area to try to sell their

(04:51):
house all at once.
So they had to take a loan outto sell the house.

SPEAKER_03 (04:55):
Oof.

SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
And so we were broke, like blew through like a
couple years of savings, and soum that's when I moved to Utah
and saw you.
And I was living in my grandpa'sbasement with my family back
then.
Okay, and so um, and my grandpa,you know my grandpa, kind of.
I well, maybe you don't, but hewas playing the organ.

SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Okay, if I saw his face, I because I'm a face
person.
Yes, if I see a face, I willalways recognize it.
So if I saw him, I totally was.

SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
Yeah, so he was a musician, and this is your dad's
dad.
This is my dad's dad.
Okay, yeah, he was a musician,and we moved into his basement
in the avenues where he had hisorgan, and um, he has actually a
cool story.
He was like a farmer inWellsville, and then um like
just taught himself the pianointeresting at the tabernacle

(05:45):
there, like made a friend withthe janitor, and we just always
go in, and he like left thefarming gig and became a
musician, like he spent hiswhole living was music, and he
taught a lot to keep it going.
Um, and I would have loved tosee him compose more, but he was
a Mormon tabernacle choirorganist for a while.

SPEAKER_02 (06:07):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah, so so art and creativitystems deep into your family.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And on my mom's side, that'syour dad too, because your mom
is the art, like was like theart, quote unquote.

SPEAKER_00 (06:19):
Yes.
So so my dad, on my dad's side,there was his name was Roy
Darley, my grandfather, and umyeah, he was a musician.
Um, and he he would he wouldplay for multiple congregations.
Um, have you ever seen AnthonyAntiques?
Yeah building over there.
So that used to be a Baptist.
And that's the one on like ThirdSouth, kind of by a Crown

(06:41):
Burger?
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (06:42):
Or second south.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (06:45):
I know by by Crown Burger, yeah.
Locked in there.
Um, but that used to be aBaptist congregation.
Oh, I didn't know that.
So he'd play for for them, andthen he I think he played for a
Jewish congregation, synagogue.
Makes sense.
Um Everybody needs an organ.
I don't know.
I yeah, I don't know what whatuh songs are like in a

(07:05):
synagogue, but I know he didwork for them.
So he was always popping around,you know, and um and he taught a
lot and then he composed when hecould.
Um and so yeah, my dad had agreat respect for the arts,
right?
And then my mom, her, her, her,her um well, went back like way
back, their watch repairers, andthen she had uh Frederick

(07:28):
Wilcox.
Funny enough, you you you rushedSigma Kai.
Fet Frederick Wilcox, my he waslike my great-grandfather.
Yeah, he was one of the foundersof Sigma Kai.
Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (07:38):
Yeah, Wilcox is a a name that you see everywhere
when you walk through the houseand see the composites.

SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
He uh um and then but his uh and but my
grandfather, he he has I haveall these photographs of him and
these sculptures he made when hewas young.
So this is your mom's dad.
Yes, and he wanted to become asculptor really bad, like really
bad.
Um his parents weren't down withthat, and he didn't.
Um, and he probably should have.

(08:04):
He went into the jewelrybusiness.
There's an old sign that's stillup in downtown, it says like
Danes Jewelry.

SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:10):
So that's my grand, like my mom's side of the
family.
Um, that's their sign, thejewelry business.
That's right.
Heidi Danes is my mom.
Got it.
Um but that they got robbed andsomebody didn't r renew the
insurance, and so there it goes.
Um bummer.
Uh pay for your pay yourinsurance.

(08:32):
Um but so yeah, so I had it fromboth sides.
We came from Florida, poppedinto my grandfather's house,
zero dollars, no money.
Like, like Christmas was fromthe dollar store.
It was my Christmas.
Um, and that was the situationfor a long time.
Uh so we would we were justbouncing around from place to

(08:53):
place living at a relative'shouse.
Um, and my mom, she really, youknow, my dad was just getting
back on his feet, and theyreally worked so hard, like, to
to get back to like stability.
But um, but you're the youngest,right?
And your parents are like superstressed out.
There's you have four siblings,right?

(09:15):
I mean, you're kind of on yourown, right?

SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
Yeah, like we know you're probably not gonna die.
Just don't do anything toostupid, right?
You know where home is, right?

SPEAKER_00 (09:26):
Um, and so like a lot of my childhood was just
being so bored, like you know,just so, so, so bored.
Um, but boredom is reallyconducive to creativity.
Absolutely, right?
And and so drawing was a hugeoutlet for that.

SPEAKER_02 (09:40):
Like, do you can you think about like what age that
started or kind of what startedit?
Or you just mostly I'm bored,there's nothing else to do.
My mom likes to paint.
There's this creativity in myblood.
I'm just gonna start doodling ona piece of paper.

SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
The first thing I ever remember creating was was
like before we left Florida.
There's like this, I can'tremember what it was.
It's like this chalk.
It was like the soft white rockthat I would find, and I would
carve animals out of it.
It was a lot of fun.
Um but it didn't, it didn'treally I didn't really sink my
teeth into it till uh you know Igot a little bit older, and it

(10:16):
was a huge outlet, right?
Because you're young and youhave zero control, right?
Like when when when you'reolder, you can kind of you you
have your fight, flight or fightresponse, right?
You can like fight a crappysituation or you can run away
from it, but when you're young,like there's no choice until you

(10:39):
just you you just absorb it,right?
It's just like stress orwhatever's happening, you just
kind of like take it in, you'relike, I don't know where to go,
you know.
Um, but I mean that's not to saylike I had some bad childhood,
it was fantastic.
Um, but it was definitely Ithink the situation was
conducive to making art, right?

SPEAKER_02 (11:00):
And then my mom-I can't think of a single famous
artist off the top of my headthat was like, Oh, I was born
super wealthy, and my mygreat-grandpappy decided to give
me my paints, and I decided topaint because I had this amazing
like no, it's like, yeah, thisguy almost froze to death
because his family's so poor,and then next thing you know,
it's I mean, just like that'slike so much like almost like a
the part of the story.

(11:20):
You're almost like prepared tobe a struggling artist before
you even knew you wanted to be astruggling artist.

SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
Well, yeah, it definitely builds up fortitude,
right?
Like internal fortitude becauseum because I mean, if you go
into the profession of artmaking, it's just definitely not
for the faint of heart.
Not at all.
It's not.
Um, it's a great profession,it's totally doable, totally
doable.
But um, you definitely have tohave some internal fortitude for

(11:46):
sure.
Um, so and then so we popped itto my grandfather's, and then my
mom got a studio, it was paintedover at the Guthrie building,
right above Cedars of Lebanon.
Yes, remember Alec Dagley.
I was gonna say Alec Dagley.
Oh yeah, oh my gosh.
I remember his mom, Marlene, shewas so kind to me.
I remember just eating so muchof their food.

(12:06):
I'd go to their house all thetime.
Such good swarma and just oh,the tabule salad.
Oh, oh my goodness, that wasprime.
And I would I remember I vacuum,I would rat vacuum Rafi's uh
rugs, Dagulin rugs.
Of course.
He'd pay me like five bucks forlike an hour of vacuuming or
something like that.
Steel.
I was like, deal.
I'd buy like some cap guns orsomething stupid.

(12:29):
Um uh and so I would go, I wouldgo to that her studio all the
time because I got like I wentfrom Florida, like where there's
alligators and there's snakes,and like like the culture was
just way different to enzyme,yeah, right, where like that's
like some of the richesthouseholds in the valley,

(12:50):
totally, right?
But I am not rich, like I'm likemy family has zero dollars, you
know.
Um, and so it's like this isweird, and so I didn't like
school going to school much atall, because first of all, it's
a new environment, but also it'slike like what what's going on?
Like it was just weird.

(13:10):
So I'd always pretend I was sickor whatever, and go to my mom's
studio and just watch her paintand just do my own thing.
And then and she was really likeum hitting the ground running to
try to get back ahead, get geton her feet again.

SPEAKER_02 (13:24):
And so um and is when she came to Saul like when
she first started like paintingas like a profession, or was she
already doing that in Floridaand other places?
She was studying while I waswhile she was in Florida.

SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
So she was going to to uh what university did she go
to?
I can't remember.
It was she got she finished upschool in Boston.
So when I was young, and then Ithink she was doing more
studying too when I I was inFlorida.
Um but yeah, so she was justgetting plugged in and getting
her career really going.

(13:56):
And uh it did get going.

SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
Um is she like sorry, is she mainly doing like
um commission work?
Is she working on passionprojects, mixture of both?
Because I know she does a lot oflike portraiture, like for con
like so, for example, my momcommissioned her to do a
painting of me and my sisters atour old house.
Oh, cool.
And it's still in my mom's houseto this day.
I still see your mom'ssignature, the classic high-D,
the treble clef.

SPEAKER_04 (14:19):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 (14:19):
Um, so is that is that mainly what she was doing?
Like, or just kind of whateverto be fancy.

SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
From from what I remember, it was mostly portrait
work, and then it was likemurals.
Okay.
Which her murals and herimaginative work is just unreal.
Like, I see my mom's sketchbookand her imagination is by far
her greatest strength.
Like she's she's in her ownworld a little bit, you know, to
I I admit and she would admit,but man, there is a lot in

(14:47):
there.
It sounds like a cool world tobe in.
It's it is a wild, she's she haslike she has like five books
she's written and neverpublished, and they're like 800
pages.
Like nuts.
And uh the I'm trying to get herto publish them.
That's the hard part for her, islike just like finishing, like
getting it out there.
Um, she has lots of ideas.

(15:08):
I really, I really need to helphelp her get those those done.
But her mural work is just likeshe's just playing.
Her portrait work is great, youknow, and she did a lot of
official portraits for likejudges in the state.
Um, if you go to Eccles Theater,um, there's a bunch of her
paintings there of some some ofthe Eccles family.

(15:29):
I didn't know that.
Um, she did some judges here,and um, but it's how she got a
lot of things for me.
Like she got, I think I got shegot me braces by doing some work
for the orthodontist.
She's always always haggling,right?
Um and so, and then so then wewe moved we moved from the from
the avenues, and I was bop justbumping from school to school,

(15:52):
and then we went to uh holiday,and my aunt and uncle um went
out to do some missionary work,and we got to live there for a
while.
And then by then we my my familymy parents got on their feet
enough to like put a downpayment on a home.
Huge, right?

(16:13):
And so then we ended up landingum by east high.

SPEAKER_02 (16:18):
Yeah, that house on it's not on guardsman, not
guardsman, but like I know I Ican see it in my house as you
come up nine south, and thenthere's that little quick little
like turn off to the left, butdoesn't connect to sunny side in
that house on the right.

SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
Yeah, it's like right across the street from
pretty close to sunny side.
As I tell your parents, everyoneexactly where you're cut off.
Um, but yeah, so and that was itmade a difference.
Like um, I liked holiday a lot,but you know, people people talk
about um like having having a ahome and stability really makes

(16:48):
a difference.
I could feel a difference, ahuge difference.
Um and uh and and and also too,I think when you're young, like
and you you know, uh kids cancan smell it a little bit, you
know what I'm saying?
Um so yeah, so popping around,um, landed in there and

(17:09):
eventually went to you went toelementary school.
This was my fifth elementaryschool um that I went to.
Yeah, it was a lot.
Yeah.
Um, but then yeah, and thenstability happened and uh it got
a lot better.
And then I got I locked into artthrough that process and I just
kept going with it.

(17:29):
It was just something I justloved doing.

SPEAKER_02 (17:31):
Uh is this mostly at like school and being like,
well, I'm gonna go hang out inthe art room, or like, uh, I
kind of like this more, or is itmostly just at home?
Like again, boredom is theperfect place for a creative
mind.
And you're just like, well,there's nothing to really do, so
let's try doodling this orsketching that, or let's grab my
mom's paints and mess around fora minute.
Definitely both.

SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
Okay.
Like I was drawing at home, Iwas drawing at school.
You know, the cool thing aboutbeing creative, um, especially
when you're young, is it's likeyour own world.
Yes, right.
And especially if you don't havecontrol over situations like I
was talking about, like there'sno none of the fight flight or
fight kind of you knowmechanisms that you can rely on

(18:11):
when you're young, but um, youdo have control over that,
right?
And so it becomes very excitingand very stimulating.

SPEAKER_02 (18:19):
Um escape from whatever life is happening and
whatever hardship is like, yeah,let's go to my world again,
really quick.

SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
Yes, right, right.
And um, and uh all my siblingsdid it as well.

SPEAKER_02 (18:30):
And it was just it's just so I know Shari Shari duh
did did and does.
Are there any other othersiblings there?

SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
They're all they all have the capacity for sure.
I wouldn't I uh Shari and myselfleaned into it the most.
That makes sense.
Um, but they definitely have thecapacity.

SPEAKER_02 (18:49):
So like if you had a let's call it a family home
evening, yeah, and let's sayyour mom's like, hey, here's
here's all my oil paints,everybody grab a canvas, here's
a theme, let's just sit here andlisten to music talk.
I'm sure there'd be some prettyamazing things that came out of
that session.
Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
We I mean we would we would mess around, like we'd
make comic books and um and weare very critical on one
another.
Well, we just my my wholefamily's very just open, like
says things exactly as theythink them without probably
thinking about them too much,unfortunately, or more
fortunately.
Um, but and there's somedownsides to that, um,

(19:30):
especially when I get aroundpeople who are not like that.
But what I love about it is thatum, you know, uh I know that
they're telling me exactly whatthey think about my work, you
know, and they critique me tothis day quite often, even if I
don't ask it, it's kind ofannoying, but it's actually very
helpful sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
Um and are they still people that you look for
that feedback to implement, oris it like thanks, Shari, like
love that thought, but thanks,but no thanks.
Both.

SPEAKER_00 (20:00):
I reach I reach out to them, and then sometimes I'm
given unsolicited input.
Got it.
And I appreciate it all.
Cool, it's wonderful.
And if there's ever arguments,it's really over fast because
they say what they think.

SPEAKER_02 (20:11):
Yeah, no grudges, nothing holds on to it.
It's like, oh yeah, cool.
Yeah, your your uh saturation'stoo high here, like uh your
composition's kind of off.
I would change it to like cool,you don't care.
Or like you're like, ohactually, you're kind of right,
maybe I do need to rethink this.

SPEAKER_00 (20:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's helpful.
It really is.
Overall, I would say it'sdefinitely helpful.
Um, so that and so my I had thesupport of my family, like it
was like fuel to the fire, andthen um, and then I think I, you
know, I think anyone reallycould can draw and paint.
Um, it's definitely a learnedskill.
Um, but it is like, you know,like a thing of aptitude, right?

(20:49):
Like some people just gravitatetowards one thing or another, um
or or can pick up the principlesquickly.
Um and so it just was somethingI enjoyed doing.
But I think I could have doneother things with my life as
well, but it would have had tohave been like a high stimulus
profession.

(21:10):
Like had to be a high stimulusprofession.
I thought I was flirting.
This is I mean it's a hugepivot, but I remember I was like
before I met Cassandra, my wife,I was like flirting with like
enlisting, right?
Because I was I was um I servedmy mission in Philadelphia, um,
but I was also I also went toareas like um Dover, Delaware,

(21:34):
which is an Air Force base, andit became very like alluring,
right?
Um I was actually even incontact with huntsman.
Interesting.
You know, like uh we weremessaging back and forth, and he
was at the Naval Academy.
Oh, John, yeah, John Huntsman,yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so so uh so uh and he waslike in care, he's like, you
should do it.
And I was like thinking about itbecause I I definitely knew that

(21:56):
I wanted to do something thatlike required some stimulation.
Now I'm sure in retrospect, I'mglad I didn't do that, go that
route.
I actually had a friend who didgo that route.
He's actually in one of mypaintings.
Uh interesting.
He just got back.
He I he ended up um becoming inlike a Green Beret who joined
the army, he became a greenberet.

(22:17):
It was like 10 years oftraining.
And uh he called me.
It was like what six months ago?
He called me.
Um you know, he got back fromdeployment.
Um, a rocket like blew out oneof his eardrums.
And he comes back and his wifewas hooking up with you know,
like great.
And uh, and so now like he's inthis horrible situation where

(22:40):
it's like um, you know, custthere's some custody issues if
if he's in like in thatprofession, right?
Because he can be deployed atany moment, yeah, or at least
from what I'm aware of what hetold me.
Um and so he, you know, he hasto he spent 10 years and now he
has to retool, like start over.

(23:02):
Yeah.
And um, like I I mean, but I hada I actually have him on one of
my paintings, that that umBering painting.
He's that he's the he's the man.
Oh, interesting.
That's him.
He modeled for me for thatpainting.
Um, and I felt like he was theappropriate uh character for it.
Um I felt, you know, it justseemed, you know, he's just

(23:24):
back.
He he just like had the weightof the world.
He said, he said, um, like hewent through like torture
training, he went through um, Ithink they had to do like a 30
30 mile ruck with an 80-poundpack, keeping a 15-minute mile,
you know, like which he said waslike one of the easier, like way

(23:44):
easier things.
And you're like easier,interesting, yeah.
Right.
But he told me like the divorcewas way harder than anything he
did in training, like wayharder.
And I was and I just felt so badfor him, you know, just so bad
for him.
And so we we we've been hangingout, and um, yeah, I got him in
one of my paintings.
Um, so all that to say, likethere's lots of hard

(24:08):
professions.
Um, you know, an artist is alife is very unique, yeah, has
its challenges, but like, Imean, there's also that, right?

SPEAKER_02 (24:16):
Like becoming a great point, like that's like
one thing I've learned intalking to friends, because like
I love the point of life I'm atright now being I'm in the last
year of my early 30s, I'm 33,and it's fun because all my
friends that went to law school,medical school, dental school,
like very professionalizeddegrees, they're finally doing
what they wanted to do.
And I've done enough growth andintrospection to know who I am,

(24:38):
what makes me happy, my values,and I like where I'm at, all
decisions aside.
And that's fine, it's funbecause I can look at friends
and be like, I'm so glad Ididn't go that route.
I almost did this.
I'm so glad I didn't do that.
Because, like, even if you'repointing like highly stimulated
things, like a one of my bestfriends, uh Brandon Bowen, is a
dentist.
And I'll be like, So what'd youdo today?
He's like, Well, I had threefeelings, I did a cleaning, I

(25:00):
had this, I did blah, blah,blah.
I'm like, that's so great forhim.
Obviously, he's doing well, butlike for me and how I have to
get through a day and bestimulated and how my brain like
attaches to something withcuriosity, that would never do
it for me.

SPEAKER_03 (25:14):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (25:14):
And so I do have like, I mean, a corporate job
where there's like structure,but at the same time, like, and
I think it's interesting becauselike artistry in itself, I think
doesn't get enough creditbecause you can find art in
anything.
Like, I was talking to anengineer I work with, and he was
and I was telling him about Ithink it was like about the
podcast, and I like painting,he's like, Oh, I wish I was
creative or artistic.
I'm like, we understand, likewhen you write a certain like

(25:35):
code, let's say, there's a pointwhere you understand and
appreciate it enough that youcan understand the artistry in
that.
So there's so many people thatsay, I'm not artistic, I could
never pick up a pencil or apaintbrush and do this.
And it's like, yeah, that's oneway, but in like the overarching
theory of art, it's so muchbigger than that.
And we can all appreciate it inour own respective way that
gives us value and appreciationand being present in life.

(26:00):
And like also, you're talking, Ilike what you're saying, where
you're like, everybody has somesort of like artist within them
creative, even like in I mean,traditionally thinking about
like painting, drawing,whatever.
Because like growing up, I wasalways like, oh, stick figure,
here we go, not trying more.
And it wasn't until recentlythat I started painting this
year.

SPEAKER_03 (26:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (26:16):
And like, and like once you actually like sit down,
okay, I'm actually gonna try,I'm gonna listen to this person
telling me and I can actually dothis.
And I was always so pessimisticwith myself.
I remember like one of the firstthings I ever painted was this,
I mean, still life apple.
And I'm doing it, I'm likesitting there just staring at
painting, like, this is so bad,I hate this, whatever.
And I go and I I kind of finishit, take a picture of it, go

(26:37):
home, and then that next day atwork, I pulled up my picture and
I was like, hey, that's actuallynot really bad.
Like, like this is good.
Like, I if you can try and belike patient and grow with it,
like you can do it.
And unfortunately, like today'sworld, like you want results
now.
Yeah, I don't want to wait.
I don't want to be patient, Idon't have to be taught.
I just want to be innately goodat this thing.

SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (26:57):
And so I think it's such a good exercise in patience
and learning and development ina way that I don't know, just
people aren't native and likeinherently as creative as they
used to be at one point.
And so it's so fun that you gotto have this life where you're
exposed to it in an early age,you have this history of family
in there, and it's set up thisstage to be like, okay, like I
can almost see like as bad as itcan get.

(27:17):
And that motivates me to evenstill take these steps forward.
Because like, so I guess soyou're you're you're back at
UNTEG, Clayton.
And I what at what point do youwould you say you kind of leaned
in more to, I mean, let's callit like the educational side of
things?
Are you taking art classes atClayton, East, or are you just
kind of more like, I don'treally need this, I have my form
of learning as I know it?

SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
Yeah, you know, that's that's an interesting uh
that's interesting because umfor uh when I was young, it was
just I was just playing, justtotally playing.
And I've had people sense say,like, what can I do to help my
kid get ready, you know, getbetter at painting and drawing.
And there definitely are sometechnical things that you can

(27:58):
do, but I think uh when they'rereally, really young, just like
something they're interested in,right?
Like looking at artwork they'reinterested in and doing artwork
that they're interested in.
Um, but I I thought, I mean, I Istarted taking like some classes
at the Peterson Art Center,which is a lot of fun.
Um, but mostly it was just medoing it myself.

(28:21):
Like I I remember I would evengo out and like I like I would
even I would spray paint, youknow, I did some, you know, some
graffiti, I guess you could say,but I remember just like being
bummed out by like having to besneaky.
So I would get, you know, I gotlike like pastels and chocks and
just like hit up places.

(28:43):
Just it was just fun, man.
It was like fun to be outside.
You had the sun, you could likecommunicate whatever you wanted,
you know, and and and be donewith it.
Um, but the education didn'treally get serious until I got
serious, where I was like, Iwant to make money doing this.

SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
Okay, so I want to get there, but I want to get
there first.
So, okay, so let's say so highschool, you're doodling like
crazy.
If you if anybody ever sat in aclassroom with John Darley and
they didn't see him doodling,you are a liar, or you weren't
actually looking over hisshoulder.
Because every single notebookyou had had a doodle.
It was always these like verywild, very wild.

(29:25):
Yeah.
Uh and it was it was fun becauselike I would just sit there and
kind of, I mean, I couldn't careless about English, but I'd be
like, what's in John's headright now?
Let's just sit here and stareoff.
And like next thing I know,you're starting with like a
line, and then it's like thisthing that melts into this
thing.
And I'm like, Yeah, I wish Icould be in your head and do
this.
And it was so much fun place.

SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
Yeah, it was so much fun.
And I remember like I rememberlike somebody like sneaking one
of my drawings in like a trophycase that the janitor like could
I get could have got you knowsome keys to.
Um, yeah, it was it was just ablast.
I was just having fun andmessing with it, and um, and
that that's definitely, youknow, um and and the the the

(30:05):
teachers always just let me dowhatever I wanted.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
Like, I don't have to worry about you, you
obviously know what you'redoing.

SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
Yeah, and I would ditch class all the time to just
go to one of the art classes,and the teachers never cared.
Yeah, I'd just keep on makingstuff.

SPEAKER_02 (30:18):
Heaven forbid a kid be interested in something and
have passion.

SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
Right.
Yeah.
Um and Mr.
Tholan, you remember Mr.
Tholen?
Yeah, yeah, he was a cool guy,like he he just let me do
whatever I wanted.
I think he drew for X-Men orsomething.
Oh, interesting.
He was and he was like an exMarine, and you just tell me
conspiracy theories about likelizard people and stuff, like
which I I just remember justlike and he had that big UFO, I

(30:42):
believe, sign.
He was a lot of fun.
Um, and so yeah, I mean, it wasjust me playing around.
Uh, I knew I was probably goingto.
To um be a painter when I waslike 11 or 12, but I didn't want
to do it at all.
Like I was really sketched outby doing it.

(31:04):
Like I was like, nobody is evergonna want to marry an artist.
Like, zero chance.
And I really, really wanted tomarry a beautiful woman, which I
did.

SPEAKER_01 (31:15):
So you remember how you met your wife, Cassandra?

SPEAKER_02 (31:20):
So I remember it kind of I remember it happened
semi-fast.

SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
It did.
It did.
You know what?
I think I might have met her.
Well, I met her, I met her atchurch.
Um, but I I talked to her whatthe night I saw you.
When we when there was like NewYear's Day, it was the UVU.
You remember that?
Very well.
You remember that?
I do remember that.

(31:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, I met her.
And uh I was talking to someoneabout that night the other day.
That's hilarious.
Yeah, that's that's the that wasthe night I met her, and um and
and she's like her you uh I wentto uh a a party that was like by
myself because I was just likeit's weird when you get older.
It's like I I really got intojust doing stuff by myself.

(32:05):
I was like, I just want to, I'mgonna I'm gonna go see the
Muppets Christmas by myself.

SPEAKER_02 (32:09):
I love seeing I love going to movies by myself, I
love going to restaurants bymyself.
I don't have to I don't have totalk to someone and be like, oh,
what do you think?
Or like yeah, oh I've I heardthis, or like food is like, oh,
how do you like this?
I'm like, no, I can just likethis is a good meal.
I get to enjoy this, I get to bewith myself, jugger on my
thoughts because I'm a veryoverthinking person.
So I'm I'm the same way.
I love just being like, yeah, II don't have to have someone buy

(32:30):
me.
Like I can enjoy this and almostenjoy it better sometimes.
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
Yeah, I I mean, and and I was totally in that space.
I I loved it.
Um, and I went to a party and Isaw I saw her there, and she's
like, So who are you here with?
And I was like, Nobody, you'relooking at a just me, you know?
And she was like so shocked thatI didn't come with somebody.
She's like, You don't you didn'tcome with any friends?

(32:53):
I was like, no.
She's like, oh, like, I havefriends.
Do you need friends?
Like, come hang out with me, youknow, and my friends, like on
Tuesday or something.
Like, I can give you friendsbecause she's a wonderful, very
nice person.
Um, little did she know, I didmeet some friends, you and some
others, and we went to UVU andate at IHOP with those random

(33:15):
girls.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, it's all that was sofunny.

SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
Such a fun night.

SPEAKER_02 (33:20):
Um, because I was like the first, like, because I
remember I came back from mymission November 29th, 2011.

SPEAKER_03 (33:26):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 (33:27):
And so that was the New Year's Eve after, and it was
the first time I was like, I'min a large group of like
college-aged people after this.
Uh-huh.
And there's part of me thathates this, but there's a large
part of me that just like lovesbeing back in like real life.

SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
Oh, yeah.
I remember I wanted, I I I justremember, what do I remember?
I remember, I remember IHOP andthese random girls and talking
to them about their lives and umwanting to be home.
I was like, man, can't I rideget home?
I'm just tired.
I want to go home.
There's always that movement.

(34:02):
And um uh, but but after that, Imet up with my wife and some
friends, and um, you know, I Iloved it because when I got back
from Philly, and I was kind ofalready like this before, but I
was just completely unafraid toask girls out on dates.
Like just totally not scaredbecause I oh, it was the

(34:25):
weirdest confidence that I lookback.

SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
Like, so for example, the so funny story.
There was a time where I it wasin Christmas, actually had it
been Christmas, that same time.
So in between, I came on mymission at that party.
My mom and my stepdad Waynedecide to do like a family
dinner, and we did it at theroof uh in the Joseph Smith
Memorial Building.
And there's this girl playingthe piano, and I'm like, hey,
like, yeah, she's pretty cute.
She's playing the piano,obviously talented or something.

(34:49):
And my sister looks at me andshe's like, Kirsten, she's like,
hey, uh, like, what are yougonna do about it?
You know?
Yeah.
And I was like, as you know, theroof, it's a buffet.
So I literally hand her my plateand I go, hold on.
Hand her my plate, go sit nextto her on the piano and say,
You're really cute, you're greatat playing the piano, I'd like
to take you on a date.
Yes, and she's like, here's mynumber.

(35:10):
Yes, I cannot imagine doinganything close to that.
Oh, wow.
Now, but like then I was like,all right, sure.
Yeah.
White Mormon return missionaryenergy.
Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
Yeah, no, that I I what I I still have to do that
now because sometimes I'll belike, like, I'll see somebody in
public who would be a perfectmodel for one of my paintings.
And I just like I went to I wasat uh Olive Garden with Cass.
Yes, and I saw I just I was I Iwas eating with Cassie and and
we're you know, I see this girlwho's clearly on a date with

(35:44):
this guy.
I'm like, Cass, look at thatgirl, she'd be perfect.
I want to paint her, she'd beperfect for that painting.
And Cass looks, you know, shelike looks without trying to see
that she's looking, right?
Um, and she's like, okay, youcan you should go ask her.
So I get up, I go over, and I'mlike, hey, um, I'm a painter.
Uh, this is my website, this ismy Instagram.

(36:06):
Um, like I'm happily married,I'm not hitting on you, but I
have a painting and I'm lookingfor a model for it, and I think
you'd be perfect.
Do you, you know, check out mywork, see if you want to come
model for me.
And um, I've never had somebodysay no.
Interesting, luckily so far.
But it's that same, like, youknow, where you're just like,
I'm gonna just, I'm just gonnado it.

(36:27):
Um, and but I did that withCassie as well, you know, where
she she she was she was clearlybeautiful and she was clearly
nice.
And uh, and so I like calledher.
I was like, hey, you know, Ithink I think you're you seem,
you know, you I think you'rereally beautiful, I think you're
nice.
Um I wanna see if you're cool.
Do you want to go on a date?
You know, those I think that wasliterally what I said.

(36:50):
And I loved like like it seemedto always work.
I was like just completetransparency of what my
intentions were, you know.
And um, but yeah, so we I meanwe dated and um I think our
first kiss was at like somemansion house, had like a
basketball court in it byHighland.

(37:10):
Um Sam Nielsen's house?
Probably we had a lot of partiesthere up, like uh I can't
remember his who's who whoseowner it was.

SPEAKER_02 (37:19):
It's kind of by like that Maverick on 27.
It's like that dip yes, rightbefore that house via Sam
Nielsen's.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we started again, I think Iremember that exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
We we started we started dating and um like we're
I think we went down to thatbasketball court, this like
super rich, wealthy house thatwas amazing, and um and we're
dancing.
I think like Nikki, Nikki, Iremembered Nikki dancing, and um
but anyways, people started likeleaving the dance floor until it

(37:49):
was just Cassie and I.
And then you know, you getcloser and closer, and then we
we started kissing, and that wasour first kiss, and somebody I
loved it, somebody must haveseen because they put on like
you know, who was it, BarryWhite?
Like, let's get it on.
I've been feeling fine, perfect,right?
It was an epic first kiss.

(38:10):
Um, and yeah, and we just date,and she she like told me once
she didn't want to date, youknow, but like we can be
friends.
But I was like, dude, like, no,I don't want to be like, I'm not
gonna be friends, I don't I wantto date you, yeah, but no, but
but for some reason she decidedto she you know, she changed her
mind, and um, and she was a bigpart of me like really going all

(38:34):
out.

SPEAKER_02 (38:35):
So at this point, so if you're starting to date her,
she doesn't want to acknowledgethat there's more than just
friendship, and or maybe I'mspeaking or assuming too much.
But uh during all this, are youlike, yeah, looks like I think I
kind of want to be like aprofessional artist?
Are you kind of keeping thosecards to you?
Because again, you have thisanxiety that who would want to
be with this person, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (38:55):
Yeah, I was like, um, yeah, that's what I was
saying.
Uh, you know, I was I wasflirting with I think I was
studying accounting for a littlebit, like I was getting my feet
wet, which is the worst thing.

SPEAKER_02 (39:07):
I was gonna say I can't think of anything more
opposite of painting thanaccounting.

SPEAKER_00 (39:11):
As soon as I I got to like very early on, like
FIFO, LIFO, and average, I waslike, no, I'm done.
Like we're done here.
Um, but uh yeah, and I was alsostill flirting with military
because I I do think I wouldhave been okay at doing
something that was um matter offact, I met a recruiter on an
airplane.

(39:31):
Um, I was actually going to anart show in New York, uh, and we
just started talking and like,what do you do?
And he was he was telling methis.
He was tell telling me that umin his recruiting, which was for
it was like for para jumpers orsomething.
Interesting force.
He said like birth order was abig thing that they actually
consider in the youngest.
I always thought it would havebeen in the oldest, but he was

(39:52):
telling me like the youngest islike they they notice that and
will snatch it because becausethere's a way higher risk
tolerance.

SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
That's what I'm gonna say is like the youngest
kind of thing.
Like I have a higher risktolerance when I say, like,
yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:05):
I see the logic in there, yeah.
And I was I was kind ofsurprised.
I was like, Well, I wouldn'tknow.
Um, but but Cassie was not down,no 100% no.
She was like, No, you aren'tgonna do that.
Um, and I was like, you know, Ican do this, and so it kind of
came down to the point whereit's like, okay, this is life,
you know, and and and in lifeyou just have to learn to enjoy

(40:29):
the fight.
And I I thought to myself, like,how do I how do I want to fight?
Do I want to fight like doingsomething that I'm like just
kind of figuring out?
Or do I want to fight a a hardfight but with both hands,
right?
Like, I was like, am I gonna dosomething that I I feel
competent in and like I think Ican have a good chance, even

(40:50):
though it's a difficult route,or you know, I don't know, just
trying to catch up on somethingthat I'm not that interested in.
Um, and when she gave me thegreen light and go ahead, she's
like, you know what?
Like, I think you should dothis.
And it was funny, it wasn't Areyou guys married at this point?

SPEAKER_02 (41:10):
Are you still dating?

SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
I think we just got married.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
And how old are you at this point?
Like 22.
Okay, right.

SPEAKER_02 (41:18):
So what was that moment where you're like burning
the ships?
I'm doing this, yeah, all speedahead.

SPEAKER_00 (41:25):
It was wild because we were so I would I had no
money.
So like I went, it was 2012,there was that oil boom in North
Dakota.
Yep.
Do you remember that?
Yes, like anyone who could chewgum could go down and make
money.
Yeah, right, and that's what Idid.
Oh, interesting.
I didn't know that.
Yeah, so I went there and Ilived on a man camp, and I was
doing like uh construction workand of of all sorts, and I was

(41:49):
living literally in the middleof a dirt field.
It was wild because it was itwas the wild west, man.
Like it was a town for likemaybe a thousand people, and
there was like hundreds ofthousands of people.
Wow, and all men mostly, yeah,and so they would just like be
driving around with nothing todo, making all like all this
money, and there you know, you'dlike walk by the one dairy queen

(42:12):
in the area, and you they'd likemultiple people would stop and
they would just like shout, andthey just like and then just
like roll up the windowtestosterone, and like it was
feeling like this.
Like literally, like multipletimes on one walk to to a dairy
queen, like there was like aWalmart and dairy queen I was
walking, and like multiple dudesin trucks just like roll down

(42:33):
the window, you know, shout andgo off, right?
So it was wild, it was a wildplace, it was way fun.
I like I don't think I wouldhave ever experienced anything
like that.
It was really cool.
Um, but uh, but she ended upgetting, and I was I was making
pretty good money for likehaving no skills, yeah, right.

(42:53):
Um, and she ended up getting ajob as well as a the cook, as a
cook of the city.
So she came down and we were andwe were engaged, right?
And she came down and we um andshe got a job there as well, and
we're like both living in themiddle of this dirt field with

(43:14):
like all these truckers, likeoil rig truckers and
construction workers, and allthese guys, and they all loved
her.
Um, and uh we're so that's wherewe started talking about it,
like you know, like we're we'regonna get married, what do we
want to do?
How do we and I think it wasaround there where we concluded
that that would be the route togo.

(43:35):
Um and and so what I did thoughwas I mean I noticed the
unfortunate problem of mostpeople not making any money
doing it, like yeah, sellingpaintings, right?
And I was like, well, that's notan option.

(43:55):
So what I did is um like Ilooked around for people who
were, and my mom suggested JeffHine in Salt Lake, and um I went
and I visited his studio, um,and he was making a living
selling paintings, and he wasmaking wonderful paintings.
Um and he tells me, he's like,look, um and he dropped out of

(44:22):
the U as well.
Uh he's like, look, like makinga living as an artist is not
it's not complicated.
You just have to be good, right?

SPEAKER_02 (44:34):
Like And there's no like in the there's no more
honest way to figure that out sofast than to put yourself out
there.

SPEAKER_00 (44:42):
Right, right.
Um and he and so he says to me,he's like, look, you drop out of
college, come to my studio as myapprentice every day and uh like
work incredibly hard.
Like incredibly hard.
Um and so what is like maybeyou'll have a chance.

SPEAKER_02 (45:04):
So what does an apprenticeship like that look
like?
Like are you cleaning brushesand like doing all like the
better term?

SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
No, I'm I'm modeling, right?
I'm modeling for him.
Um and and so he had like astudio and he had his main
studio.

SPEAKER_02 (45:19):
And do you feel like his style was something that you
wanted to emulate, or are youmostly following him for here's
a successful artist, how do Imodel this to make this viable?
Or maybe a combination of both?
Both.

SPEAKER_00 (45:30):
Okay.
Yeah, his style, he he he knowso here's the thing, like um,
like how you make marks and whatyou want to say, like it's so
funny because you'll you'll goto you go to the you, right?
And and there will be like a lotof talk of like, what do you
want to say?
And people saying, like, whatwhat do we what do we want to

(45:50):
say with our artwork?
Um, and not a ton of discussionabout craft or what we can do or
how to do it.
And ironically, I think that canbe a problem because um you're
hampering your ability to speak,right?
Because the the the the the morearticulate your vocabulary, the

(46:14):
more you can say.
Yes, right?
So as opposed to focusing, solike it's like so he's he's
like, you don't focus on, youknow, like don't worry about
focusing on what you say at thisstage in the game, at the very
beginning, just focus onlearning how to draw.

SPEAKER_02 (46:30):
I mean I think that's interesting too, because
it's almost like this likehierarchy of needs but art where
it's like, cool, everybody as anartist, I assume, wants to get
to a place where like here's howI express, here's like my voice
in all of this.
But you can't get there unlessyou start at a foundation of
yeah, here's a composition.
Like just like again, gettinginto like the brass tacks of art
and painting in itself, and youhave to work to get there.

SPEAKER_00 (46:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, and so it was so you know,we were, I think we we we had a
discussion about like um, youknow, your your create, you
know, uh your work becoming youknow, something you love doing
becoming your job and how thatcan be uh perceived as like it

(47:15):
can kill it for you.
That would happen that happenedfor me like when I was studying,
right?
Because I was not studying likesuper stimulating I wasn't like
playing like I would when I wasin high school, right?
Where we're just messing around,having a good time.
It was very, very technical.

(47:37):
Like I was thinking about lightlogic, I was thinking about you
know shape, proportions, I wasthinking about compositions, and
the biggest um hill to tacklewas I was trying to get a grip
on drawing the human figure,which is the most difficult
thing to do.
I hate it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (47:57):
Every time I've tried to, I end up just grabbing
a paintbrush and just kind ofpainting it at just one solid
color.

SPEAKER_00 (48:02):
I'm like, I'm done with this.
Yeah.
Um portraits as well, becausewhen we're born, our brains are
so sensitive to faces.
Um, like, you know, you can youcan tell somebody from you know
a whole city but block down whothey are because our brains are
so in tune with those shadowshapes right around the eye

(48:22):
sockets, under the nose, underthe mouth, that like you can
identify them.
That's how sensitive.
I mean, this is the first thingwe're looking at when we're
babies is the faces.
Um, and the body is verysimilar, right?
Like we are familiar with thehuman body, um, the human
machine.
And it's incredibly beautifuland incredibly uh complicated.

(48:44):
Um, and it's taking somethingcomplicated and um distilling it
to the viewer in a way that'sunderstandable and not getting
caught up in the complications,right?
Like knowing what uh is mostimportant, uh what to what what
to simplify, what to push.
So, so the the human figure, thefigure drawing was a giant bulk

(49:07):
of my education.

SPEAKER_02 (49:08):
I and and and I also thought about And did you know
that you wanted to go down thispath of portraiture at this
time, or is it mostly just thisis stimulating to me, this is
this challenge that seems sogargantuan that I want to tackle
this?

SPEAKER_00 (49:21):
It was definitely I knew I wanted to paint people,
um, and it was definitely achallenge.
The challenge was huge becausemost people who I study saw
studied, who studied with me,with him, like who studied in a
studio, they did not last verylong.
Um because he was, I mean, he'svery he was just very strict,

(49:44):
yeah, right.
Like the the deal was like, hey,like if you want to if you want
to move on to more complicatedsubject matter, you need to show
me that you know your stuff andyou know what you're doing.
So like for example, um uh youknow, we we there was there was
a desire to show proficiency ina certain subject.

(50:04):
So like a straight lineblocking, like a line drawing,
you know, no no rendering orform within the drawing, just
lines, right?
You know, you you would have todo five, you know, still life's
five figure drawings perfectlyin order to get more complicated
instruction, right?

(50:25):
And perfect, I mean when I sayperfect, I mean actually
perfect, like professional, highlevel, something he would do,
quality.
Um, and let's say you got fourcorrect, and on your last one
you screwed up, you you messedup, you'd have to start again.

SPEAKER_02 (50:42):
It's almost like that uh I don't know why this
comes into my head, but themovie Miracle, like another
1980s soccer, uh not soccer,hockey team where they're doing
like the the ladders back on theice ring.

SPEAKER_00 (50:52):
It's like again, yes, no, totally again and and
and and and what like a lot ofpeople I saw just like cry and
like leave.
So you weren't the only onegoing through this?
No, there was like I don't know,it varied.
People would come and go.
It was like, but I think therewas like a solid five people.

SPEAKER_02 (51:11):
And was it like Hunger Games, John's the last
man standing because no onecould deal with what you go
through with you?

SPEAKER_00 (51:17):
No, well, I mean, most people uh didn't drop down.
There's problem like most peopledidn't like he wasn't like go
on, like leave the nest.
Most people uh just left ontheir own accord.
Makes sense.
Um but so um so there was thechallenge comp component uh to

(51:39):
it, like where I was wanting,you know, I had this guy, and I
I was just like, I just gotangry about it.
Like I was like, I'm gonna makeyou like this, and you are not
gonna find one thing wrong ifit's the last thing I do.
Like I'm gonna die before likewe I like stop, all right.
Um and and I think that wasreally to my benefit because I

(52:03):
I've seen and since and I wentto other studios after there,
like I I later went to New Yorkand some other places, and um
but one thing one common thing Isaw with art making and people
who seem to to like make itactually happen is just this
certain level of doggedness,right?
It's just like this um likebiting and not letting go.

(52:28):
Um and I definitely when I whenI I don't think I was there's
there's some people who seemedmore talented at X, Y, or Z, but
one thing I can say at hisstudio and the other places I
went was like I really grinded.
I grinded so hard, so hard.

(52:50):
I did you know what I did umbefore I started making real
money selling paintings, I didthe math and I had worked over
or about 13,000 hours.
13,000 hours, like so manyhours, right?

(53:10):
And so so I studied, I studiedwith him.

SPEAKER_02 (53:12):
Well, it's like if you've ever read Malcolm
Gladwell Outliers, where it'slike 10,000 hours, yeah, 10 time
masters.
It's so funny to be like, I didthe math and this is where I
ended up, right?

SPEAKER_00 (53:22):
Like so, like I went so eventually like I started
realizing like I saw all thesepainters in New York who were
just like doing such good figuredrawings, just so I'm sure
that's like the one of thegreatest places to be as an
artist.

SPEAKER_02 (53:36):
Is I mean, probably like I mean LA or New York, if I
had to hypothesize.
Yeah, I don't know, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know aboutLA, I don't know the scene as
well, but um yeah, and and uh soI I can who are sorry, you're
apprenticing apprenticing for inNew York at this time?

SPEAKER_00 (53:53):
So I went to um a school called the Grand Central
Academy of Art.
Okay.
Um, which is great, it's afantastic school.
And then I also studied at theArt Student League, um Art
Students League of New York, andthen I did some like Hudson
River Fellowship, which was likethe old Hudson River School

(54:14):
paintings, if you ever heard ofthose.
Um that was a lot of fun.
We do that in the summer.

SPEAKER_02 (54:18):
And um and so talk to me about like these
connections between thesedifferent schools.
Is it kind of you go throughthis first apprenticeship,
you're like, okay, I'm gonnamaster the human figure, I'm
gonna make this guy proud of meif it's the last thing I do, and
that's where you get in thissupport, like uh appreciation
for portraiture.
And then you're like, well, Ikind of want to go towards this
style, and this school is thebest place where they have this
teacher, or is it mostly likethis is the school, and if I

(54:40):
want to do this, this is where Ihave to go to make this work?
Or what's your thought processthrough this journey?

SPEAKER_00 (54:45):
It's a great question because the the the
problem I was seeing, I was Iwas seeing these people um on
the other side of the continent,and um and they're just
producing unbelievable figuredrawings, and it pissed me off.
I was so mad whenever I'd seeit.
It made me so mad.
Um and eventually, you know, umI finished up my studies with

(55:09):
Jeff, and um I was my my wifeand I we like stashed away like
twelve thousand dollars, likemaybe fourteen.
And um, and we just went for it.
We like I applied, I got in, um,and I went there and I quickly

(55:34):
understood why their drawingswere so good.
Um because when I went there,you know, we did some cast
drawings, you know, and and andsome other things, but I had
access to a model eight hours aday, right?
Like eight hours a day that Icould draw draw a live human

(55:55):
naked.
It was great.
Like, um, and so the reason whythat stuff's important is
because you when you're drawingand when you're you're making
paintings and really in any anyany way you want to do it, um
understanding the natural worldwill impact your ability to

(56:18):
express anything that you'repainting representationally,
right?
Um so for example, I'll see likeon Instagram some uh like
hyper-realist uh uh paintings,and like people are super
impressed, you know, but the ithas this like weird aesthetic,
like plasticky aesthetic.
And um, that's a result oftenfrom someone just working from

(56:42):
photography only, exclusively,right?
So they don't have anunderstanding based off nature
and based off experience.
And every time you're drawing aperson, your your brain is
making like a neurological mapand understanding of that person
of the body.

SPEAKER_02 (56:58):
And uh, and and it's also I'm sure that's something
subconscious that you have totrain your brain to be like,
yeah, this is how I'm perceivingthis, this is how I have to
translate this on my drawing.

SPEAKER_00 (57:07):
Yes.
Um, and you you learn thecertain level of sense
sensitivity and also sculpting.
I was a I was able to sculpt aswell, which was huge because
you're you're um I'm engagingthe same parts of my brain that
I would be when I'm doing adrawing, except I'm doing it at
multiple angles, right?
I'm moving, you know, spending20 minutes from one side, moving

(57:29):
slightly to the other side,moving slightly to the to the
other.
And um you're you're you'rereally thinking in a
three-dimensional fashion,right?
Um, and so that experience wasfantastic.
Now the the the the the downsidewith uh you know any really mo a
lot of um good places where youcan study painting and drawing

(57:55):
is there's like a bit it canbecome art can become like
religion for a lot of people,right?
They really have their theirthing.
And the people I was hanging outwith were people who are using
like old French Academytechniques, which is great

(58:16):
because they don't teach ithardly it you know at schools
anymore, and that's a shame.
Um, but it was like a littlemuch where it's like anything
else is horrible and anything,you know, and you're not in,
you're out.
Yeah, yeah, right.
And I had no interest in that.
Like I just wanted to learn howto draw and uh utilize it for

(58:36):
whatever I wanted to say.
Um and so that that stuff waskind of weird.
Um, because I started feelinglike I was like in a cult a
little bit.
I was like, uh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (58:50):
Like, do I really have to wear this rogue?
And why why is this goat here?

SPEAKER_00 (58:54):
Right.
Um, but it was, I mean, thosethose people were so great.
Um, Jacob Collins was like thehead instructor he founded the
school.
Um, I think I can't remember.
I think he was doing like aportrait, uh painting for
Clarence Thomas at the time whenI was there.
And um, but he he's he, youknow, the the the big thing I

(59:15):
also noticed um when I was outin New York was like there's a
lot of like a lot of people havetrust funds.
Yeah, like a lot of people.
Like way more than I realized.
Um and so I started freaking outbecause I was like, you don't
need to make a living.
You you have like you're likeyou have like a trust fund.

(59:37):
Yeah.
And I was like, dude, I I'mgonna have kids.
Like I like I gotta get going.
So when I was out there, like umthe studio opened up at like
eight or eight thirty.
I'd get up at six thirty and Igot to the studio at 8 30.
We had a half an hour lunch at12, then um then I took an hour
lunch at five for dinner, andthen I stayed till like 10:30,

(01:00:02):
11, and I got home.
And um, and I worked onSaturdays too.
And it like it was so awesome,like because I got so much
information and was like justpacking my brain.
True, just this sponge taking itall in and just being as present
as you can't.
Yes, and and but eventually likeweird stuff happened to me.

(01:00:24):
Like my my body started doingweird stuff, like I gained like
25 pounds and I'm walkingeverywhere.
Yeah, like this doesn't makesense.
And I was like, that doesn'tmake, and then my hands would go
completely numb and my facewould go numb.
And I was like, that's weird.
Yeah, this isn't normal, that'ssuper weird.
Um, I went to a doctor, Ithought maybe it was allergies,
and they're like, No, this islike psychological, you know?

(01:00:47):
And it was weird because Iwasn't like I didn't feel
stressed out, like I was lovingit, but I think I was just
grinding really hard.
Um and then we we left, right?
We we we we leave New York.
I we have like$1,500 left.
Um and um we move in with mywife's grandmother.

(01:01:10):
Okay.
Right to like try to recoup ourmoney, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:15):
And so we take care, she's like really she's in her
late 90s.
We're taking care of her tostrike try to save some money.
And um and then um you know I'mmaking I'm starting to make some
money.
Now I had some shows I had someshows in New York um and that
helped like get some some somesome startup costs let's say um

(01:01:41):
over at Cavalier Gallery.
And but then but then uh I waslike starting to freak out
because I'm like I have like acommission for like you know
four thousand bucks or somethingwhich is great but like I don't
have a lot of them and I'm likehow's this like I don't know how
this is going to work.
Right?
Like I don't first of all I'vebeen focusing so long on my

(01:02:04):
craft like how to um like techthe technical side yes uh of of
what I want to do and I not verymuch time in like what I'm gonna
say right and then all of asudden it's like time to make
money you know and so um I youknow I'm just doing some
portrait commissions and then ummy wife she's like she comes in

(01:02:29):
she comes in this room that I'mpainting in and she's like um
I'm pregnant and I was like likeit was like um it was like I was
super stoked like way happy butthere was still that jolt like
when you wake up from a baddream yes that you did something
awful and you and you're like ohthank goodness like you know

(01:02:50):
like that that like strike umand I was just so scared but
then I got an email for acommission and it ended up being
like 30 grand.
Jeez right and then like thenext month I got another one for
like 20 and then another one for10 and like you're like it's
working and and what happenedwas I I did one painting like it

(01:03:13):
was actually that paint thepainting of my grandfather.
Okay.
And that caught some attentionfrom some people and that like
was it like at a gallery wasthat it it won it won like award
at the like a Springville theSpringville Museum.
That's a fun place.
So that got that got me pluggedin and that got the ball
rolling.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:30):
Got it and like it was just that one painting which
is kind of so cool that that'sthe one that like started this
domino of the this guy who hadthis creative like in star like
yeah and um and so from there itwas just a roller coaster ride.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:47):
And and Cassie so we had our first son and then
Cassie stopped working and thenshe started working like a
part-time deal and then she likewent she fluctuated from like
not working to doing like apart-time light deal um and we
were like trying to figure outthe balance right like because
being self-employed is difficultnot necessarily like being being

(01:04:11):
an artist isn't really difficultin in like the ways people think
other than like the very obviousway that anybody who's
self-employed has to deal withit right like irregular income
yep insurance like all of thatstuff like insurance was a wild
ride like we ended up likehaving to do like health sharing

(01:04:31):
plans yeah which we still dolike so you want a healthcare
plan but you're an artist let'suh let's talk about this right
and uh another one was likegetting a mortgage oh yeah
that's that's possible forpeople self-employed people well
we did we bought a house inAmerican fork it was wild um
because I think you had like a Ithink you posted on Instagram

(01:04:52):
about that story at one pointwhere you're like no it wasn't
for me it was a post I can'tremember but you're talking
about like we were gonna do thiswe didn't really know how we but
we needed a house it was insaneyou want to hear the story yeah
should I tell you um and thatpainting so if you if you if if
your listeners are listeningthere's a painting on my website
it's called bearing it is a saddepressing painting I'm sorry

(01:05:14):
but it had to have been I had topaint it yeah because it was
that that like there was twoyears of our life that was so
hard like so hard um because itwas right at the pandemic so I
so I'm stashing away so we'rewe're living with my wi wife's

(01:05:34):
grandmother I'm stashing away alot of the commission money that
I'm making because of that andso um you know it we get to when
did the pandemic hit?
It was like 2020.
Yep so yeah we get to thepandemic 2020 and like um you

(01:05:55):
know I we've we've uh savedabout 50,000 bucks which like a
lot of people can get theirfirst house maybe on 50 50k and
I had I had 40 coming in fromsome like like I guess we could
call it accounts receivable.
There you go look at you guys itall comes back to accounting
like some commission work thatwas in the process I had you

(01:06:16):
know 40 grand um but likeinflation kept on going higher
and higher and higher and we'relike what are we gonna do?
Like we we have no idea what todo.
And so Cassie she went back intothe marketplace working full
time and I was working full timebecause I had commissions I had

(01:06:37):
to deliver.
Yeah you got deadlines but we wehad we had just had our second
son right and um and what reallyended up happening was like just
no sleep ended up happening.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:51):
Right.
And it was a lot of it was mebecause my since I'm
self-employed like there'sflexibility with my schedule
right and so I ended up likesleeping maybe three hours for
for like two years.
And I'm not kidding when I saythat.
Yeah I mean like the and thefirst year was like it sucked
but it was doable but the secondyear really started jacking me

(01:07:14):
up.
Hands started going numb againthings going it like really
jacked me up like the worldbecame super dark like super
gray like super awful yeah rightand if it was just me like I
definitely couldn't have done itright it was like my family that
kept me going.
That's awesome for sure.
And that painting bearing wasthat whole feeling embodied

(01:07:38):
right like it was so cold it wasso unhospitable um like the
world's burning around you andand and when you when you would
look at me nobody would havebeen able to see it but
internally it was heavy and itwasn't even that big of a deal
like people deal with way worse.
I was really frankly being asissy but also no but also don't

(01:08:02):
don't let the yeah people can gothrough worse things but it
doesn't mean that yourexperience wasn't difficult one
of the most trying times of yourlife sure um but that was
probably most difficult thingI've ever done which is maybe
sad to say like maybe I haven'tdone very many difficult things
but no like give yourself sleepthe sleep deprivation really got

(01:08:22):
to me and I did not stop like II kept on I would I would I
would work till three in themorning.
So you're in your in your studioyep sun is very down there's
like Cass would get home at likelike five six and I would that's
when I would like handoff yougot kids I gotta go to study I

(01:08:43):
would go till like three in themorning and I would wake up when
the kids got up and take care ofthem.
Right?
It was really rough really roughand the other reason why we had
to do that was because um likeyou know uh the more for a
mortgage yeah right they're likeyou you know self-employed

(01:09:04):
irregular income and I and I wasI like and I I was making like
livable real money and I I I amum but it's like still you know
they were given a side eyesright um and so to really seal
the deal she went into themarketplace for those two years
to make that happen.

(01:09:25):
And because if you could showconsistent income salary they're
like oh cool like right you canconsistently pay this bill at
least right and so and we likewe we looked around on the
market like we we put someoffers like somebody put in like
150 000 over asking price aplace in alpine that we looked
at we wanted to and we wanted tolive like we did not want to

(01:09:47):
live in Provo Salt Lake was likebecoming way too expensive um
and but but like American ForkLehigh seemed like the sweet
little like in between spot likeProvo is super annoying.
So we're not going to Provowe're going to Lehigh um
American Fork Lehigh PleasantGrove we liked that area and so

(01:10:11):
we we looked at a house um overyou know Alpine 15000 uh over in
American fork it was literallythe only house on the market um
and like we walked around it for15 minutes maybe even 10 and
like put down an offer.

(01:10:31):
Yep this is it right and it wasit it was like listed before the
pandemic it was like 350 andthen after it was near 600,000.
So it doubled in price in twoyears.
Like insane yeah insane but likewe we like you know we saved we
like had some investments panout and like we just we we we we

(01:10:56):
signed the dotted line we gotinto the house and also we never
we never like borrowed money wedidn't have credit cards.
Awesome my sisters and brothersalways made fun of me they're
like how are you gonna get ahouse um I was like I don't know
but we made it happen ithappened you can do it still
don't have one you know um itbut so we got into the house and

(01:11:17):
the day we got into the houseCassie quit her job and like we
started rocking right we juststarted getting plugged in.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:24):
Just got to feel so good coming out with these like
all of this hard work towardsit's like mastering this craft.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:30):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:31):
Then you go through these dark years of like okay
like life is about to be hardbut I just got to put my head
down and go.
Gets you in a place whereprobably pretty close to your
breaking point then you get intothis house and you're like I
think we're good like I likethings are panning out.
I got a pipeline of commissionsI'm doing what I love.
Yeah and you're like all rightlike we did like high five we

(01:11:51):
did this like and we made itwork.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:53):
It was the best feeling man.
It was so good and I love myhouse man I love it.
We like it's quarter acre it'scompletely fenced like we put a
child lock on the door and thenlike the kids just are like
playing around and the the ownerthe the previous owner of the
house was like a survivalistlike person.

(01:12:13):
So it's it's got like stackedwith solar panels and he he was
a mechanic and he worked out ofthe his garage and like that was
his mechanic shop.
And um I was hoping to get likea building for my studio like I
wanted like a separate big suitebuilding that everybody could
see but the house was sixhundred thousand dollars you

(01:12:34):
know and um self-employed youneed some cut cushion right so
what we ended up doing is justrenovating his old mechanic shop
into my studio space which hasbeen plenty of space it's really
worked I do want to get um aspace downtown probably an
American fork in the comingyears cool but that that's been

(01:12:56):
great it's worked and is thatthe first time you've ever had
like your own studio at your ownplace or have you always had
yeah sort of space for for forfor me alone yeah I mean I
worked in studios right you knowbut nothing you'd be like this
is my studio my house I can dowhatever I want in here screw
all of you.
Yeah and it's big it's nice coolit works um and so that was rad

(01:13:19):
um and you know he had like sohe ate rabbits there was like an
old rabbit coop like he like wehad this like giant buddy don't
need a survival yet like they'relike these rabbit coops where
the these rabbits were justbeing processed they were just
eating them every day and like Ijust took the wood and like like
I ripped it all out took thewood and built like a chicken

(01:13:40):
coop that I was like I was likeI want chickens I don't want
rabbits um but it's it's thebest place and the thing that
people don't know about Utah isthere's so many talented artists
like heavy hitting artists likedown my street is um Ben Hammond
um who's a sculptor he just didthat um oh I forget her name uh

(01:14:01):
it was like you know first womanto vote like sculpture and see
um but he's and he took the sameroute as me right like and he
he's his his he's making a greatliving but he did the same thing
where he just went into hisartist studio right learned
learned the ropes right and gotplugged in and and because it's

(01:14:25):
economics right if you're goingto the U or if you're going to
BYU you're maybe drawing fourhours a day.
I was drawing 10 to 12 hours aday.
Yeah like within a year I havelike two and a half years of
drawing experience on somebodywho's doing something else.
Assuming you're with somebodywho knows what they're doing to
guide you.
It's an important one.
Right um and so um yeah and andand and and and there was

(01:14:50):
another there's there's Howardum so that's Ben Hammond.
Howard Lyon who's a big fantasyartist is like what two miles
from me.
Mary Sauer is you know a milefrom me.
All of these artists makelivings with their work
exclusively and what also peopledon't know is like so for
example I was I just I won anaward at the Porsche Society of

(01:15:13):
America conference prettyrecently and when there so
that's an internationalcompetition.
There's like like four or fivethousand entries um you know I
was I was one of what like 36winners so 36 out of those
thousands pretty lovely andthere was and there was like six

(01:15:35):
of those recipients were fromUtah.
Interesting six I was at anotherI won another award that was at
Sotheby's recently and that hada little bit more I think it was
90 to 100 award recipients umthere was like 10 from Utah and
a lot of people uh like one ofmy clients she went there to

(01:15:57):
that show and she's like is thislike a Utah thing I was like no
yeah there's just a ton oftalent here and people don't
people don't realize like howhow heavy some of the hit
hitters here in Utah are andeven when I went to New York
like I had a teacher being likehey I get a lot of people from
here in U like from yourdaughter out there like what are

(01:16:19):
you doing?
Yeah that's essentially what heasked me and I was like I don't
know man like I don't know whatto tell you.
I guess now and like after beingI mean part of this community
knowing these people better likewhat do you think that is is
there any like sort of likecultural or anything or just
happenstance that people are inUtah you know um why are you

(01:16:45):
thinking like like rural UtahUtah it's not long ago that Utah
was pretty um agrarian likewe're like lots of farms right
um that's what American Fork andLehigh used to be up until like
eight years ago.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:00):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:00):
Less than that almost um and there's like
there's still a lot of the a lotof healthy things that produce
like um like some stabilityright um and and there's a a
fairly well educated populationum but I think when you're like

(01:17:23):
from those and I don't knowabout this this is just me
theorizing here but like ifyou're if you're in New York and
you're in that all the time likeyou might maybe you get numb to
it.
Right.
Like but if you're from thesemore rural areas right that
stuff is incredibly stimulatingright and if you're like healthy

(01:17:47):
and capable you know and and asthat populate more money comes
into the area and more umeducational opportunities come
into the area like I don't knowI can't remember where
Michelangelo was born but Idon't think he was born in an
urban area.
Yeah like I think I think it wasrural.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:05):
And I think that those places um are conducive to
to to creativity being boredright that's what I was going to
say is because there's lessstimulation so you have these
people being like so what elsecan I do except for go dig
trenches and holes and milkhow's like oh I'm gonna paint
and actually as you were sayingthat I was thinking I'm like but
also like by nature I would sayUtah's a pretty inspiring place.

(01:18:28):
Yeah I mean it's so hard likeeven if you're an American fork
you go walk outside you're likewow Mount Tippinogas is pretty
stellar looking across Utah Lakelike it's a very beautiful place
and it's hard to not be caughtin awe and even some of like the
artists I follow a lot oflandscape artists and especially
like I don't know I just alwaysappreciate it because I love
love Utah so much.

(01:18:48):
So I mean so for people whodon't know like who are some of
these artists in Utah that youlook up to or that you feel like
are the like the front line ofthese like successful Utah
artists that are out there.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:00):
Definitely Jeff Hine who I studied with right you
still keep pretty good incontact with him yeah we're
buddies we're we're buddies tothis day um he's great um this
the people I mentioned HowardLyon um uh oh uh casey childs is
really big he's in uh Salem umhe moved from Pleasant Grove to
Salem um Mary Sawyer Howard Lyonuh Randall Lake was somebody who

(01:19:26):
helped my mom early on I thinkhe's now in Spring City um
pretty area and then there'sthere's people if you go down
towards the Logan area you havelike Michael Malm um so that I
mean that's like seven coolright I I'm being put on spot
here so it's like drawing someblanks but I mean that's seven

(01:19:48):
yeah right um and those thosepeople make real money with
their work um and it's good worktoo like it's good like
recognized it's not like ohyou're like you're a good artist
in Utah like gold star but it'sjust like oh this is like
nationally internationallyrecognized and I I mention them

(01:20:08):
because also they have like likethere's a lot of ways to go
about art making right um thegalleries are more and more
conducive these days to like umhigh output right like maybe
true maybe you're doing like alandscape with like a palette
knife like really quicksomething maybe representational

(01:20:29):
but a little bit abstractsomething you can do like four
paintings or six paintings aweek something like that where
it's just high output.
Yeah um but figurative work is alittle bit of a harder lift when
selling um in a gallery but youcan you totally can um and it's

(01:20:51):
more difficult content ingeneral yeah um so a lot of my
sales have come through privatecommissions right I have some
galleries on the east that Ilove and they've been really
great to me um but the privatecommission is really preferable
in my view because there's notthat 50% cut which they take by

(01:21:13):
the way if you're wondering theytake 50% instead of someone
being like hey I want this donethis is how I want it you're
like cool let's do it instead oflike here's how I'm feeling or
here's like what's on my mindright now and hoping that has
some sort of resonation becauseI mean yeah it's it's a job at
the end of the day and you haveto make money.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:30):
Like in a perfect world you could sit in front of
a canvas and be like I want topaint this and I know when it's
done I can put it on myInstagram and someone's gonna
buy it for half a milliondollars.
Yeah.
On to the next one.
But that's not probably howreality is no at least not for
me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:43):
I I my my experience has been like I don't a lot of
the people I work with it'sweird because I had a student
the other day who was saying Iteach by the way and if people
are wondering I have I teach uha portrait class and a figure
drawing class.
Um but um that's at UVU right Iyeah uh I teach at UVU uh

(01:22:04):
portrait class and figuredrawing class um and they're
great great students I love itit's very stimulating and I'm
happy because you get prettybroody in your studio by
yourself um with the exceptionto models coming in um but I um
I had a student the other daylike talk refer to somebody she

(01:22:26):
was doing work for as like acustomer and it was weird to me
that it was weird to me.
I was like a customer like yeahlike what are we in retail?
Yeah like I don't know why not aNordstrom trying to get a pair
of shoes like yeah she's she'samazing by the way she's like I
she's a fantastic student.
Um but I I rem I I rememberbeing like that's weird but what

(01:22:47):
I found is um it's really coolto get these people in my corner
um making these projects happenright because I can't do it
without them they will fund mylife essentially to um dig into
a subject like for example rightnow I have so I have a multi

(01:23:10):
figure painting that I'm goinginto it's like 12 figures there
might be more it's huge rightit's a big painting and it's
gonna take a a lot of my timebut that's the route I want to
go like I want to do the mostdifficult subject matter I think
you can tackle is large scalemultifigure work.
Well yeah right like if if youwent to the Paris salon back in

(01:23:32):
the day in the 18th 1800s umthere was actually a hierarchy
of of difficulty of subjectmatter and in in Paris at the
time I think there was like twomillion population and when the
salon came the French salon likeit became 10 million like
everyone from Europe came.
It was a big deal yeah but thehierarchy of subject matter was

(01:23:54):
I believe and now this is not tobe insulting to people who might
paint these subject matters uhit's this is just what these
people long ago thought um butit was like landscape still life
animal painting uh portraitpainting figurative work like oh

(01:24:14):
like a single figure multifigurework like this was the the the
these were the tiers ofdifficulty got it um and so at
this stage in my career like Ireally really want to tackle
large scale multifigure work umand somehow like I keep getting
lucky where I find somebodywho's interested to get behind a

(01:24:37):
project and I think about itmore in terms of like um like
the there's so much money beingthrown around in like the tech
side of Utah right there's likeridiculous money like people are
just spray like spray and praylike let's see if something pans

(01:25:00):
out right like and I need likesuch a small fraction of that to
keep my life running with aguaranteed end result.
Like there's no my my mycompany's not going to go
bankrupt right like I'm gonnafinish that painting and I'm
gonna make it happen.
And um I've had some successwith people getting in my corner

(01:25:22):
and being like I want to seethat happen.
Let's let's go let's go and umit seems to be also successful
in that they tell people aboutme right like I'm gonna have an
unveiling at this when thispainting's finished and you know
history is shown that kind ofstuff keeps on bringing work

(01:25:43):
towards me.
And my work is not um it's notlike my price ranges go from
$3,000 to$5000.
It's not like we aren't in thehundred you know hundred like
like low low low end is likethree grand like lowest right um

(01:26:04):
and so it's I'm incrediblygrateful to these people who end
up like funding art in ourcommunity and really investing
in me to continue to learn rightit's that's what I love about
painting and about artwork.
It's it's like really just ameans by where I can expand

(01:26:24):
myself and investigate the worldand see what's going on and see
how far I can push it.
And I love being this foreverstudent in a way you know
because each project presentsnew challenges and each project
I try to make more and more likeI try something new like see
where we can take it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26:44):
And it's such a craft you can continue like
you're never going to be you'renot gonna know everything.
There's always something tomaster something you can learn
in every project.
So it's got to be so nice rightfor you going back to this like
you're initially like I'm gonnado this I'm just perfect.
It's this I mean chase thatyou're gonna have the rest of
your life but it's somotivating.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:00):
Yeah yeah and and like in and I always feel bad
like if you go if you go intoathletics right your body is
done when you're like 40s right45 I don't know you aren't going
to be at your prime right butwith art like you hit your prime
when you're like 50 right I meanand and and I mean the paintings
eventually will like I mean Idon't know what the future holds

(01:27:24):
but like nothing's gonna lastforever.
Like there's a good chancethey'll disintegrate you know
into the earth somehow you know20 million years from now.
I don't know.
But um and this is true forevery profession but I love that
I have something where I can cancan expand and learn from and

(01:27:45):
take that on with to the nextlife you know like I mean what
what are we doing?
We're eventually going to dieand um like that knowledge is
gonna go with me.
At least I I believe so right umand I love that idea right that

(01:28:06):
I can I'm almost like playing asport um forever.
Yeah you know forever and rightand and and I I love and and so
so um so that's how it's beenfor me so far.
And I've I have enough work fora long time well for about a
year.

(01:28:26):
I have enough work for a yearand I teach right I do I do I
teach from UVU as just like justin case stabilizer um and that's
helpful.
And I plan to eventually whatI'd like to do is get um I would
love to get large scalemultifigure work in a public

(01:28:49):
space because a lot of a lot ofthe paintings I do go to private
collectors who are fantastic butI would love for something to be
seen.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:58):
So I imagine like not a lot of people see these
paintings if it goes to a someperson's private estate,
whatever.
Right.
Which like there's a big problemwith that in like art in general
like you look at the Louvre andit really is like there I mean
there's thousands and thousandsof paintings that no one will
ever see because they'recollecting it with like right
obviously intent of um uhconservation or that might be

(01:29:18):
the right word but um to keepthem but at the same time it's
like yeah but nobody sees thesenow right and so I'm sure as an
artist like you don't wantsomething to go behind a closed
door like no I want people tosee this and experience this and
this joy and like everything Iput into this because I I would
imagine you put some of yourselfinto everything that you do.

SPEAKER_00 (01:29:36):
Yeah well I mean it's essentially when somebody
buys a painting from me they'reessentially buying a part of my
life yeah right like I and Ireally do put everything I can
into my work I really just openmyself up and try to do whatever
I can to make it as good as Ican.

(01:29:57):
And and so that that life islike that that painting is like
a relic of millions ofindividual decisions
encapsulated like millions ofindividual thoughts.
Yeah you know in in in a worldwhere there's so much
photography like that's just anexplosion of pixels you know
explosion of photons thatcapture it right and and and

(01:30:17):
into a single snapshot.
Like a painting is millions oflike different emotions and
thoughts by each mark.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:25):
And interpretations and the way that you want to
convey that because I wastalking to an artist at the I
think it was the Park City artanyway but it was back in like
August or something.
And I was talking to this womanand I really love she was this
pastel artist and I was justsitting there staring at it for
enough time that she came up tome was like so do you have like
any questions or like and she'slike well what about my process
like yes process.

(01:30:46):
And I was just talking to herabout how like to your point
where people go on Instagramthese people do this amazing
detailed realistic thing whereit's like In theory, like yeah,
you can copy a photograph, butat the same time, that isn't how
you interpret what you're tryingto like what that emotional
response is, what you actuallysee in the values, in the
colors, and this composition,and then putting your own spin

(01:31:07):
on that is like that's a wholeother different thing.
Like that's to me where the artcomes in.
Cause anyone, I don't want to belike talked down to people, but
like, yeah, you people can takepictures, but that isn't an
interpretation of something orhow to convey an emotion or
create something new.
And so sometimes it bothers mewhen people are like, oh, this
realism is so amazing, which isgood.
It's it is great.
There's so much skill behind it,but at the same time, I don't

(01:31:30):
want that to conflate all theother art for what it is,
because I think there's morethan just, yeah, that looks like
what I think it should looklike.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:38):
100%.
One of the things I hate, whatuh which I would hear kind of
early on.
Um like, oh, that looks justlike a photograph.
I'm just you know, you're justlike, oh gosh.
Like, clearly, clearly, uh,we're doing something wrong
here.
Um and yeah, I mean, there is somuch that goes behind it.

(01:32:00):
Right now, I'm doing a lot ofegg tempura, which is like so
explain that what yeah, what'sthat?
So, so that's like the old, old,old.
It's like egg yolk and pigment,right?
You mix it, and um and I lovethat medium for a few reasons.
One is like there's just so muchgoing on right now.
There's so much color, there'sso much noise, there's so much

(01:32:20):
stimulation, there's so muchwanting.
Um, and and it just like itmakes for me, it feels like it
makes like like all the color onthe screens, it just makes it
makes scene kind of dull.
Yeah, right.
Like too much color makes makesit dull, right?

(01:32:41):
Like too much wanting makes youcold, right?
Like, and to and like so there'sjust so much.
Um, and and my paintings at thebeginning, like when I was
younger, I'd make them very likebright and chromatic, not
necessarily in like a garishway, but I I would I would break
paint bright things, like reallychromatic things.
And that was really appealing tome because I was in all these

(01:33:03):
studios with all these likebroody artists who were like,
Oh, I'm so deep, you know, andand I was I was just like, gosh,
man, like lighten up a littlebit, right?
And so that was appealing.
But now that I'm I'm a fatherand I'm trying to like, you
know, um, I'm I that stuff isbecoming like I'm getting sick

(01:33:24):
of it.
It's like too much candy.
Um, I love egg tempera becauseit's more muted, right?
It's more dreamlike.
Um, and it it's and and becauseof that, um that's that's my
chosen medium currently.
Like I do oil paintings as well.
And you can um, you know, youyou can paint oil on top of egg
tempura as well if if you want.

(01:33:44):
You can't take paint egg temperaon top of oil, that's not gonna
work out.
Got it.
Um, but you can do it on top ofegg tempura.
Um, and and so and and and it itkind of feels like drawing in
some ways that because it driesimmediately, you can have these
nice like linear marks that canfeel like you're drawing at
certain points.
Like pretty different than yourtraditional oil aware.

(01:34:07):
Yeah, oil's very goopy, flowy,um, and that has its advantages
in different ways.
Totally.
But egg tempura is very likeharsh, and most people most
painters seem to not like itbecause of that, because it
dries quick, but I love it.
I love layering and seeing thatlike shimmering effect that
starts to just like glow.

(01:34:28):
And and that's the big thingI'll see with with my paintings
where I know they're dumb, doneis like when I start feeling
this glow happening.
That's all right, right?
Like, like this almost thisvibration.
And you can totally tell.
Like, you see, you might see mywork on my website or some of it
on my Instagram, and it's just adifferent experience.
I was actually wishing I shouldhave brought a painting um uh to

(01:34:50):
show you here.
So it's because it's it's a verytactile and different experience
when you see these paintings inperson.
And we live in like such amanufactured world.
There's just, I mean, Iunderstand like the mass housing
developments because likethere's a huge need.
Um, I get it.
But like um it that makes uhthese intimate uh relics and

(01:35:20):
works of art more valuable in myview, right?
Where it totally changes thefeeling of a space, it totally
changes the feeling of your day,um, and there's a story behind
it too.
Like if you're looking closely,because a painter only has like
one, like one thing to tell astory on, right?
Like I was Cassie and I wewatched last night, uh Space

(01:35:43):
Odyssey Odyssey 2001.
Oh, classic, right?
It was Dave, don't do that,Dave, right?
Um and trippy movie, especiallynear the end.
Yeah, have you seen that?
Yeah, it's been a while, butyeah.
It was great.
Like, I was like, wow man, thisis great, really fun.
Um but uh like they there's athere's a huge narrative that

(01:36:06):
can be told within video, right?
Where you have you know soundand actors and uh but but a
painting uh you're try at leastI'm trying to make every moment
interesting and every momenttelling a different thing,
right?
And it's it's kind of like whenyou're you're going down the
street and you're meetingsomebody for the for the first

(01:36:28):
time, and you're really quicklytrying to like you take uh a
visual gulp of them and you cantell a ton really quickly,
really quickly.
Yeah, you don't have the wholestory and you'd be surprised
when you hear things, butthere's a lot you can discern
just by one glance.

SPEAKER_01 (01:36:48):
Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_00 (01:36:49):
Um, and they say don't judge a book by uh its
cover, and that's true, but likewe are incredibly intuitive, and
that intuition is based offlogic, and that logic is often
brought to us by our eyeballs.
Yeah, right.
And so my goal when I'm uhpainting a painting is to um

(01:37:11):
insinuate and and to lead myviewer through the painting and
to tell a story, even if it'slike something as simple as a
portrait, right?
Like I am trying to showsomething that I'm seeing about
that person that I'm learning,you know, usually from from from
like you know, a mom, a dad, aspouse, a brother, sister, a
friend, somebody who knows them,right?

(01:37:34):
I'm asking questions.
Um, and then what my eyes areseeing just off my interactions
while they're sitting for me.
And um, you know, there's anarrative there.
There's a narrative woven intothat one piece.
Um, if we can take, you know, uha moment or two to just sit and
look at it, right?

(01:37:54):
It's it's there.
Um and so uh, you know, there'sthere's these larger paintings
I'm working on right now, whichare clearly like large stories,
right?
But those small stories that areyou know just just a portrait or
just like a still life orsomething, there's totally a

(01:38:16):
narrative there if you lookclosely, you know, and check it
out and see what the artist isthinking and where they're
leading your eye.

SPEAKER_02 (01:38:23):
Totally.
I mean again that's like yeah,the more I because like I mean,
like I liked art, let's say,like I would never be like
passionate about it, but then asI've learned more, kind of like
gains I kind of almost think ofit as like uh I don't know why
my brain's going here, but likewine, where I'm like, oh, like,
oh yeah, cool, well, I get it,people do this, and then it's
like, oh, I start to have someopinions, and like, oh well,
tell me where this is like tellme the story of this.

(01:38:43):
Okay, that makes sense.
A hundred years old.
Yeah, and with art, it's 160.
Oh, like, yeah, my eye is drawnhere.
What like this color is likebecause everything is so
intentional, and so and it it'slike almost like an English
class in high school, you'relike, no, what did the author
mean by this sentence?
And part of me's always like, Ican tell, I don't think they did
mean this much, yeah.
But with art, I do.
Well, because maybe they don'tthough.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:05):
That's all sometimes they don't, you're fair, right?
Like, like I I remember like um,so let's to to back it up to
high school, right?
Like, I remember just drawingweird stuff, and and when you're
drawing that way out of yourimagination exclusively, like
you you almost develop like aRolodex of things, and like and

(01:39:25):
you can tilt and push and pulltowards these things you already
know how to do.
Yeah, it's like a starting pointalmost.
Right.
Um, if you do it long enough,you just start kind of repeating
yourself.
But I remember like just doingweird stuff.
Um, and I was like, oh man, I'mso deep.
Like I'm so deep.
Um, but then I you know gotolder and I started real seeing

(01:39:47):
like other teenagers doing thesame thing, saying, I'm so deep,
you know.
Like maybe not as you can.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:54):
And I was like, I was like, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:58):
That's that was my exact thought, right?
Like, I was like, man, I know Ithink uh now I did have like
emotions that I was totallytrying to express, and that was
valid.
Uh, but I'm still doing thatnow.
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:40:10):
And and I'm just going back to your point of
building that vocabulary andskill set to do so, right?
You would now have so many moretools in your arsenal to do
that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:40:18):
Yes.
And admittedly, like when Ifirst got out of school, there's
something to like um, I wouldsay I was too much onto like,
look what I can do, everybody.
Yeah.
Like, look what I can do.
Um, and it didn't take long forme to, you know, that's not as
interesting to me now.
Like, I I like I know I canpaint something very technically

(01:40:41):
proficient.
Um, but now it's becoming more,you know, look what I have to
reveal, right?
Um, you know, and and like andso and and there's a a fair
amount of like emotional ummessaging in my paintings that I
try to talk about because Idon't like you remember me,

(01:41:02):
right?
Like I I like to talk, like I'mkind of loud, but I would and I
would be willing to wager it'sthe same for you.
It's probably the same for a lotof guys in general, where you
you talk a lot, you like to tojab, but when it comes to things
that actually matter to you,like a lot of times we keep it
close to the chest.

(01:41:23):
And I I don't think that'snecessarily a bad thing, right?
But I love having an outlet forthat where I feel like maybe
somebody will be able tounderstand this.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41:33):
And it's like an outlet that I think people don't
have a lot of ways to have thatoutlet, and being able to have
that in a way, especially likeso intentionally, has got to be
huge.

SPEAKER_03 (01:41:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41:44):
And so when you think about because like
obviously, I mean, going back tolike high school drawings, and
you like you only knew what youknew at the time and you thought
you were doing these greatthings only to kind of like get
humbled along the way.
I mean, how did you how I mean,I guess, A, how would you
describe the style that you'reat now, and how did you get
there?

SPEAKER_00 (01:42:03):
Um so it's evolved and it's evolving today.
Yeah, totally.
Like next year, it's gonna bedifferent.
It better be different, right?
Like, I mean, it's like this,it's this like organic
evolutionary thing, right?
Um and you know, when I when Iso when I when I was in high
school, it was a sen I'm I hadit was all out of my head,

(01:42:27):
right?
And what's really important, umlike first foundational thing is
taking into account shape,right?
If you have like uninterestingshapes in a piece or or um uh
it's just gonna beuninteresting.
Yeah, right.
And I've I've had that happen.

SPEAKER_02 (01:42:46):
Well, and just be distracted, they'd be like, oh,
that doesn't look right.
So all of a sudden theirexperience tops right there.

SPEAKER_00 (01:42:51):
Yeah.
So so so what I was doing inhigh school is I would just like
take shapes and and that wouldbe kind of the base, and I would
just make something interesting.
So you you said like you juststart drawing something and then
it would turn into a thing.
Yeah, right.
That that that just drawing isjust like an intuitive search
for something that lookedinteresting, um, randomized, yet

(01:43:12):
some like you know, maybethere's some like I was looking
at ice on top of my car theother day, like it came out,
there's a frost.
It was amazing to me how howmuch how random and yet how much
of a pattern I was seeing onthat frost.
Yeah.
Right.
And there, I think there'ssomething, uh there's an element
to that in art making, likewhere, you know, you were you

(01:43:33):
know, you you if you're tryingto interpret something from like
the natural world, there's likea lot of random.
But there's but there's alsothis like symmetry.
It's like this organized chaosas well.
Right.
Um and so um, yeah, what I wasdoing there was I was focusing
on shape, and I could make I waslearning I could make anything
interesting if I had interestingshapes, right?
Then it could be whatever, itdidn't matter, right?

(01:43:55):
Um, and it's so usually it justwas like whatever joke I was
trying to tell or whatever likeemotions I was trying to do, you
know, I was just like messingaround.
I was having a good time.
I I still do that, by the way.
Cool.
Um that makes me happy.
Yeah, I definitely do,especially with my son.
It's but it's like um, you know,if somebody like let's say
somebody's listening to thispodcast and they're like, hey,

(01:44:16):
you know, I want to throw downsome real money for you to do
something like you did in highschool.

SPEAKER_01 (01:44:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44:22):
Sure.
Dude, let's let's rock.

SPEAKER_01 (01:44:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44:24):
Let's go.
Let me go grab a trappy reallyquick.

SPEAKER_02 (01:44:27):
Hold on.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44:28):
Um, but uh I enjoy what I I'm doing now.
Um, and and I I I'm trying toincorporate more of like our
heritage in terms of like havinga feeling that of of of of you
know, like a nod to the past andthe future of like people who

(01:44:48):
live here in the West, and umdealing with concepts that are
universal, right?
Like struggle, you know, umembracing of the unknown.
Yeah, right.
Matter of fact, I'm doing apainting, one of my paintings
I'm working on, um I it's gonnabe titled that.
It's gonna be called um uhEmbrace of the Unknown.

(01:45:09):
Right.
Where and and it's simplybecause like I'm embracing the
unknown all the time.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:14):
You only know what's currently in your pipeline and
this, but you're addicted andpassionate about your craft and
don't know what I'm gonna belike next year.
I don't know what I'm gonnapaint like next year, but I know
I'm gonna keep going forward.

SPEAKER_00 (01:45:24):
Right.
Like I have I have a year worthof work in the pipeline, which
is great, but it goes by fast.
Like a year goes by fast.
Oh yeah.
But I've I've had that, I've hadthis situation before.
Like I've had like a monthbefore it's like the gig is up,
right?
And uh when I was younger, itwas like really freaked me out.

(01:45:46):
Yeah, like it was like I amlike, what am I gonna do?
Like I'm gonna go, what am Igonna do?
Um and my kids are young, right?
They're just small, small littlebabies.
Um, but the older I get, themore I realize like it works
out.
It keeps on working out.
Somehow it keeps working out.

(01:46:08):
And so this painting for me umis you know about that, like
just embracing the unknown,letting go of the past and your
your attachment to it, and justgoing for it, like open your
opening yourself up to that,like to the abyss, right?
Um, and so uh, you know, like Ilove that I get to do that.

(01:46:31):
And um, and so uh I would loveto tell more stories like that,
which are universal to others,and I would love to tell them in
a public place and have like a anod to this unbelievably
beautiful place we live, andthese really fantastic and

(01:46:52):
unique individuals.
Like, um, it's and it soundselitist, you know, to to
compliment like people from Utahand Utah and it can get sick,
but I don't care.
Like, I love the people here.
Yeah, they are just fantastic.
I love the people in New York.
I, you know, I love I love thepeople like in Philly.

(01:47:13):
I love the people where I'vegone everywhere, but like there
we have like such an amazing umlike little slice of pie here.
Oh, uh no.
And the people here are are justI'm uh the place is beautiful
and the people are beautiful.
And I don't mean likephysically, I mean just there's

(01:47:34):
a lot of wonderful people herethat I've I'm just so glad I
know.
Um and I'm very grateful forthat.
And I'm grateful for theespecially for the ones who like
help me, you know, uh, you know,make these paintings happen.
Yeah, like it's so weird to methat there are people willing to
fund my addictions.

(01:47:55):
Yes.
Like it's weird.
Um, and it's really cool.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:59):
No, it's such a that's such like an amazing like
point to get to after goingthrough all of that struggle.
And I also like what you'resaying about embrace um, sorry,
we say embrace the not theunknown.
Is it the unknown?

SPEAKER_00 (01:48:10):
Embrace the unknown embrace of the unknown.

SPEAKER_02 (01:48:11):
Embrace the unknown.
And it's so fun like to hearmore about I mean your
grandfathers, where you have onewho's like, I don't know how to
do this, but I kind of like wantto learn this organ and piano,
self-taught to the point wherehe does all of that.
Yeah, you did that all his life.
Well then you also have um yourmom's father, Danes, who's like,
I want to do this, but I don'tthink I can.
And so it's almost it's so niceif they could see now where they

(01:48:32):
have, I mean, obviously yoursister paints, your mother
paints, but be like, they'reembracing this thing that I
could and couldn't do just tohonor everything that has come
before, like you're talkingabout.
Like, I want to do things tohonor the past, the present, and
the future of it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:48:45):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:48:46):
And I think your testament in your profession is
already so much of that.
And it's so fun because like Ithink you're absolutely right.
Like, we have a great communityin Utah, we have great people,
we have a lot of great talentedartists.
Like, it if you once you startpoking around, you realize
there's there's a lot of reallygood, cool things.
Like my uh sister's uhfather-in-law, he's a huge art
collector.
His name's actually art.

(01:49:06):
And he like Art Vendelay, ArtArt, Arthur Swindle.
Arthur Swindle.
And it's just so amazing.
Like every time I go to hishouse, I'm like, wow, like this
is they're and like they're alllocal artists, like he very
rarely buys anything from out ofthere.
And so I think there's so muchoptimism to have and so many
great minds coming together forit all.
I guess kind of before I endwith two other questions, like

(01:49:27):
just for people who are curiousabout how would you define your
current style.
I mean, how would you likesummarize it if someone asked
you?

SPEAKER_00 (01:49:34):
Yeah, um, I'm a figurative painter.
I tell stories with the humansubject, whether that be um, you
know, multiple figuresinteracting with one another,
whether that be a portrait, um,the human subject is how I tell
stories.
Love that.
Um so yeah, figure painter.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:49:53):
Um, and then wrapping up with the two
questions I always ask everybodyis number one, if you could
choose to have someone on theSmall Lake City podcast, who
would you want to have and heartheir story?

SPEAKER_00 (01:50:04):
Oh well, it you know, if I want to keep, you
know, thinking about the artworld that we got going on.
I love it.
I love it and want more of them.
Um a great guy to have on wouldbe Micah Christensen over at
Anthony Antiques.
Um they he they just bought apainting from me, so obviously
they have good taste.
Yes.
Um and he knows a ton about theart history.

(01:50:28):
Like you asked me, like, tell mesome some you know, some people
here.
I I said like seven, yeah, butthere's so many more.
He just developed a book aboutUtah artists specifically.
Interesting, right?
So, you know, I'd maybe reachout to him and see what what he
has to say about um the Utah artworld.

SPEAKER_01 (01:50:48):
Yeah, uh very unique.

SPEAKER_00 (01:50:49):
He's and and and he has like real artwork coming
through there, like real artworkuh that's really impressive.
I don't know how he gets hishands on it.
It's like beyond me, but umthere's some cool stuff that
goes go through the AnthonyAntiques.
Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (01:51:07):
Often, yeah.
And then lastly, if people wantto find your artwork, find a
class, find a commission orcommission you for an artwork,
where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 (01:51:17):
Yeah, just um, you know, you can go to my website,
johndarlie.com, you can go to myInstagram, John at John
DarleyArt, you know, uh you canemail me johndarly801 at
gmail.com.
Um yeah, that could work.
They could even reach out toyou.
I would send them.

(01:51:41):
Like, I want to say though thatthis podcast is like a painting,
man.
Like this is this is yourartwork.
And I was listening to the lastthree, and they were just tight.
They were really tight, reallysounding great.
And uh like I found myselfwanting to ask questions from
like David, right?

(01:52:02):
Like that, and I think that's agood thing when the view when
the when the listener can bethat fly on the wall, yeah,
right, and like feel likethey're part of the
conversation.
Really great.
And I'm super stoked to seewhere this thing goes.
I think it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_01 (01:52:14):
Thank you so much.
That really does mean a lotcoming for you.
Yeah.
I'm so happy I did this.
Yeah.

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