July 23, 2025 • 35 mins
We're joined by multimedia storyteller Noël Burgess to completely transform how you think about river cruises – especially if you're part of the younger generation who might have written them off as something for your grandparents.
You'll hear Noël's candid journey from skeptic to convert as he discovered the unique charm and surprising accessibility that river cruises offer younger travelers like millennials and Gen Z. We'll show you how these intimate, customizable experiences let you explore multiple destinations in ways that align perfectly with how younger travelers want to see the world.
Whether you're in your 20s, 30s, or 40s and curious about river cruising, or if you want to understand how the small ship cruise industry is evolving to attract a new generation of explorers, this conversation will open your eyes to possibilities you might never have considered.
Follow Noël’s travels on YouTube & Instagram:
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@NoelBurgessOnOurWay
- Instagram: @mrnoelburgess
Learn more about the world of small ship cruising:
- What Small Ship Cruises Actually Cost
- Top Things to Know About River Cruising, Part 1 & Part 2
Send us your Christmas Markets River Cruises questions! Whether it's packing tips you're curious about, booking advice, or what to expect onboard or in specifics ports, we want to answer the questions you're curious about. Part 3 debuts this September, in just a few weeks, so get those questions in now to Mikkel: mikkel@sometimessailing.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome to Small Ship Cruise Talk, a show where
we share insider tips andfirst-hand experiences about
this outstanding, yetlesser-known form of travel.
We are passionate about sharingour knowledge about river
cruises, expedition, yacht, andbarge cruises, so you are
informed when it comes tochoosing your own vacation
experiences.
(00:23):
We're your co-hosts, Dan andMikel, and we are your cruise
experts and the co-founders ofSometimes Sailing, a website
that focuses on small shipcruise Welcome to another
edition of small ship cruisetalk Today, we are extremely
excited to have Noel Burgesswith us.
(00:43):
Now, we met Noel on a Riversideluxury cruise ship a couple
months ago.
We did.
We were cruising the...
The Rhine.
The Rhine.
The Rhine.
Mikel usually says the romanticRhine, so you went full-on
German with it.
Yes.
I'm sorry.
It's a romantic Rhine, but wewent up the Rhine.
(01:04):
Excellent.
SPEAKER_02 (01:06):
I like that, actually.
SPEAKER_01 (01:07):
So through our conversations, we realized we
have to bring you on andintroduce you to our audience
because you have a greatperspective on the younger
traveler as kind of beingintroduced to river cruising or
small ship format cruising.
I know our listeners are goingto be really interested in that.
So, Noel, if you could introduceyourself.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
Sure.
Absolutely.
So Noel Burgess, it's subtle G,so not guess or Jess, it's
Burgess.
So I like to joke it's a subtleG.
Grew up in Connecticut, so NewEnglander, moved out to
California about 10 years ago.
I was in human resources forabout 15 years.
And then during the pandemic,like most of us, having a hard
(01:49):
time and looked at my career andwhat I was doing and found that
I was able to take those skillsand move them into more of the
multimedia storytelling aspect.
So I focus mostly on food,beverage and travel, how brands
can reach younger and broaderconsumers And then also for
those consumers, how they cannavigate these new areas that
(02:11):
either culturally or diversitylike they weren't allowed to or
just don't have a lot ofexperience in some of these
these places.
And I think one of them, as yousaid earlier, is river cruises.
you know, I'll be 45 this year.
So I'm literally 80s baby, 80.
And, you know, growing up, Ithought of River Cruises as,
(02:32):
that's something my grandfatherand grandmother used to do,
right?
Like they're playingshuffleboard and, you know, some
disgusting Bermuda shorts and ahat on a River Cruise deck.
And that's how I saw it.
And I just didn't see it assomething that in my youth, I
guess, I guess we'remiddle-aged, I guess 45.
Well, I mean, if you think aboutit, you know, I don't want to
(02:53):
off on a tangent right but it'slike i said it the other day and
i was around someone that was intheir 70s like you're not
middle-aged and i'm like okay solet's break this down
mathematically If literally youmultiply my age by two, that's
90.
So I think it's middle age.
It's safe to say 45 is middleage.
You know what I mean?
But anyway, I want to get off ona tangent.
(03:13):
Now I'm of age where some ofthese experiences now don't seem
so old.
And I think in general, even forindividuals that are 20 years
younger than me, there's still alot to be said about small
cruises.
SPEAKER_02 (03:26):
We've always felt like the sooner you get into
small ship cruising, the betteroff you are.
Agreed.
in on a secret that everybodyelse is going to find out later
in life and wish that they hadfound out sooner.
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
And the price goes up even more,
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:41):
It's like that small island that used to be so quaint
and cute and no one went to,right?
And then, you know, shout out toTulum, but Tulum is a good
example of that, right?
Where 20 years ago, oh my God,you can get there for pennies.
Now everybody and their motherand their dog wants to get there
and the price has gone up.
SPEAKER_02 (03:58):
Yeah.
What was your introduction tosmall ship cruises?
cruising in general?
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
So it was Riverside luxury cruises.
I had never been on a smallroom.
Well, I take that back.
I mean, in New Orleans, you goon like those riverboat cruises,
but you're not you're not reallygoing anywhere.
You're just going aroundlocally.
You're not in another countryand heading eight different
destinations.
So I think this was three yearsago and it was Danube.
So I believe it's the Mozart.
(04:24):
It was on assignment.
So I'm like, okay, theexaggerated eye roll.
And I'm like, okay, I'm going togo and I'm going to be the
youngest person by 30 years,except for other press on the
trip.
Everybody else will be super oldand that's okay.
Right.
I don't have an issue with that.
Cause I like to joke that I feellike generationally I'm the
middle child.
Like I'm stuck between babyboomers and Gen Z and
(04:46):
millennials.
And so it was my firstexperience and I went in there
with my eyes wide open and justlike, okay, we're going to try
this out.
And I was.
pleasantly surprised.
I wasn't the youngest person byfar on that cruise.
And even on the cruise, we wenton them.
There were quite a few 20 yearolds and 30 year olds.
I was extremely young, but maybeback in the seventies and
eighties, it was just somethingthat was advertised towards an
(05:10):
older generation, right?
Baby boomers were in theirforties at that point.
Like, yeah, this is for us.
And then of course they've agedwith the brand.
And I think along the way, theseriver cruisers weren't able to
pick up younger generations.
They just doubled down, tripleddown on on baby boomers and Gen
Xs and went with it.
And I don't blame them, youknow, follow the money, get
yours.
I don't have an issue with that.
(05:30):
But then how do you, right?
How do you sustain long-termviability?
They didn't pick up themillennials, you know, along the
way and say like, hey, this isnot just your grandparents type
of travel.
This is something that you caneither go on with them or just
do it, do it yourself.
And I think they missed out onthat.
And now you're starting to seeRiverside, Emma and other ones
(05:53):
trying to get and doing a prettygood job of getting younger
individuals involved in rivercruising
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
yeah what what experiences do you think they
offer that makes them luxury.
And then second part of that iswould appeal to a younger
audience.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
So I compare them to the big ocean liner cruises.
So they're both cruises, justone's on the ocean and literally
one's on a river.
But I know my issue with cruisesin the beginning were that it's
like, okay, this is a collegesoup kitchen, right?
Like, is this a buffet style?
And I'm not agoraphobic.
I want to be very clear to theaudience.
I'm not agoraphobic at all.
(06:32):
But even on some of these largecruises, I mean, you have 5,000
people, you're shoulder toshoulder, and you're standing in
line, and you know, there'sscreaming children, and there's
teen angst in the pool, and it'sjust a lot, right?
A lot of moving parts.
And to me, the river cruises aresmaller, more intimate, and
(06:54):
you're able to really focus inon things that the larger
cruises just can't give you theindividualized service.
So you have the great food, butit's not for 4,000 people.
It's for 40 people or 100individuals.
It's easier to get on and offthe ship because you're not
standing in line for an hour anda half to get off.
(07:15):
For those that may lean towardsantisocial behavior, it's just
much easier, I think, for thosethat are a bit shyer to deal
with 40 people than 4,000individuals, right?
You meet one or two people thatyou get along with, right?
And you focus in on them forseven to 10 days and you're
good.
The other thing I would say isfrom a From a socioeconomic
(07:37):
standpoint, I know river cruisesmay seem like they cost a bit
more, but it's another way tothink about it.
This is how I think about it.
Imagine you're booking yourvacation and go somewhere that
you've never been before, andyou're spending anywhere between
$2,000 to$10,000.
You have no idea what to expectwhen you get to that island or
(07:57):
that country.
And you spend all this money,and hopefully it works out for
you, but sometimes it doesn't.
You absolutely hate it there,and you just dropped 10 grand.
to me with a river cruisehitting seven or eight spots
you're able to figure out whatare the places that you like
best and then you come back andyou drop that seven eight grand
right so we were in amsterdam wewere in germany we were in
(08:21):
france and we end up inswitzerland so we stopped at
what maybe eight, nine spots,because I know we did two in a
day some of the days.
And I like some places betterthan others.
And I'm like, huh, I'm going todrop my money, right, in the
next one or two years to comeback here and check out, you
know, the Chocolate Museum inCologne, right?
And we went to a beer garden.
And I was like, okay, this issome place that I like.
(08:43):
There was other places, and Iwon't shout them out because I
don't want to hurt theirtourism, but that I wasn't,
right, that I wasn't too keenon.
So maybe I need another rivercruise to figure that part out,
but I'm not going to drop sevengrand to go back back there and
purchase a hotel.
So my point is the long windedway of me saying you're able to
taste, pun intended, a lot ofdifferent places all in one trip
(09:05):
and then figure out what suitsyou.
I'll be nice today.
The younger generation, theattention span can be fickle.
So now every day you're hittinga new spot.
You're hitting a new spot.
You're hitting a new spot.
And I think that's somethingthat really vies with the
younger generation.
SPEAKER_02 (09:19):
To your point, you hit more spots on a river cruise
than you do on a big shipbecause they're there the entire
day.
And you're right, youngergenerations I don't want to brag
about me being a youngergeneration.
I'm still in my 40s, you guys,but I am the youngest of the
three of us.
SPEAKER_00 (09:38):
By like two years.
Get out of here.
SPEAKER_02 (09:43):
But my attention span is not great.
And I do enjoy one city in themorning and then a city in the
afternoon.
Some days we're in the city frommorning until late in the night,
but it was a nice aspect of it.
And additionally, another pointyou made about the cost and
this, I would say, misconceptionthat it's so expensive.
You made a great point about itbeing maybe riskier to be
(10:07):
somewhere.
I mean, we went to Tulum to takeTulum as the example,
SPEAKER_03 (10:11):
and
SPEAKER_02 (10:12):
we were not into it.
So that was riskier, if you askme, and to your point, than
something that, you know, youpay for your flights, you pay
for the river cruise.
Most of them include gratuities,or you can opt to include
gratuities.
And there's not variables.
You're not spending money onanything else, really, unless
you want to have dinner in townunless you want to go out and
(10:34):
shop.
That's up to you.
And that's a choice.
Right.
And that's a choice.
But there's less variables.
It's almost like it minimizesthe financial risk.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
I agree.
Vacations can be stressful for alot of reasons, who you're with,
what you're seeing, packing,getting on the plane.
And then, you know, you, as Iwas saying to one of the
passengers on our cruise, Iunderstand like this other
cruises.
And again, it's no knock on themthat you pay quite a sum of
money and then you have to payeven more once you get on for
this type of dinner or you'repaying for these excursions.
(11:07):
And with Riverside, not to hypethem up too much, but I'm just
telling the truth.
It's like you pay this price andit's not super cheap and that's
okay.
It's literally a luxury cruiseline, but you don't pay anything
else once you get aboard.
And for those that enjoy theirspirits, as I do, show of hands,
I enjoy my spirits, right?
It's all included.
(11:28):
So if you're going there for anearly happy hour at 11.59 a.m.
because it's happy hoursomewhere, and if you're there
at midnight, like we were acouple of those nights when Dan
didn't go to bed at 7 p.m.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
High-end meals throughout thethe day, the barbecue on the
deck, having dinner and having amenu that changed every night.
(11:49):
It wasn't the same thing unlessyou want to eat the same thing,
right?
So they had the menu where ifyou wanted the steak every
night, you could have it.
But the main courses, theychanged every night.
And I think that's somethingthat I appreciate it.
And I know we talked about alittle bit, but given the day
that you're on the cruise, somedays you're not feeling getting
off the ship.
And there were a couple of daysI was like, you know what?
(12:11):
We're in this port.
It's 80 degrees outside.
The sun is there.
I'm gonna go up there, right?
And I'm gonna oil up the legsand the face so I don't get
sunburned.
And I'm gonna sit on the deckfor four or five hours and have
one of the nice butlers bring mea drink.
As I said to him, I was like,every 45 minutes, I need you to
fill my cup.
And he did.
(12:31):
And I think that's, to me, theproposition value of a river
cruise.
Be able to meet friendly peopleand hang out with them.
And if you wanna do your ownthing, you can.
You can get in the pool thatthey had on board or not.
You can take a e-bike and goaround the city or not.
You can eat yourself into a comaand then literally go to the gym
(12:53):
and then go downstairs and get amassage, right?
I think there's so much more todo than I think people realize
depending on how you like tovacation and how you like to
relax.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
Yeah.
You really bring up such a greatpoint.
It's all about thatpersonalization.
You can literally choose yourown adventure by staying on the
vessel or else going into town.
or else take an excursion orgrabbing a bike and doing
something on your own.
It's all up to you to make thisvacation your adventure.
SPEAKER_00 (13:23):
There are some cons.
I think for a smaller cruise,unfortunately, if you don't get
along with a bunch of people,there's nowhere to hide.
You can hide on a 6,000-personship pretty easily.
You cannot hide on a 110-personship.
There's nowhere to hide on that.
Also, if you don't do yourresearch and look at the
destinations and some of theexcursions, if they don't vibe
(13:43):
with what you're doing, then Ican see that being, you know, a
tough trip.
On the, as you say, the romanticRhine.
I'm sorry, I have to do theeyebrow.
The romantic Rhine.
If you're not into German wine,if you're not into chocolate, if
you're not into rich foods, it'sprobably not the best cruise to
take, right?
They have many on many differentrivers, but just also doing a
(14:05):
little bit of homework on that.
And then Riverside specificallyis luxury.
It's the difference betweenflying in economy, economy plus,
Plus business and first classand Riverside and the name is
luxury.
It is first class.
So it tends to be pricier thansome other river cruises.
You just need to figure outwhat's best for your budget and
(14:27):
what you want to spend yourmoney on.
SPEAKER_02 (14:29):
I have two questions.
Well, a point and a question.
The point, our first Riversidecruise, we had a lovely two or
three days hanging out with acouple that was on their
honeymoon and they wanted to tryriver cruising.
They were in their earlythirties and it was the perfect
opportunity to do land andriver.
(14:50):
I want to say land and sea, butit's the river, land and river
with Riverside because they dothose shorter option
itineraries.
So that's a great thing.
And my question is, what do youthink about a solo traveler if
you're young and you know, Theanswer could be not good for a
solo traveler or going with afriend or a spouse for younger
(15:13):
generations, younger people inparticular.
And I'm talking about adultsthat are going to travel, not a
multi-generational trip withyour grandparents and that kind
of thing.
What do you think about a solotraveler versus going with other
people?
I
SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
think if someone travels by themselves quite a
bit, it just depends on whatyou're into and how social or
antisocial you tend to be.
And are there spaces where youcan be by yourself?
yourself and do things on yourown or you have to constantly be
in a group which can be drainingfor someone that just doesn't
have that personality type.
I think it's great just to havethat itinerary kind of pre-plan
(15:48):
of like these are the days thatyou're going to socialize and
see what those excursions orwhat the ship is doing on board
and then those days where youcan take the e-bike and you can
go around Amsterdam for the dayor Cologne for the day and kind
of do your own thing.
To me, the trendy thing to saynow is like slow travel, right?
(16:08):
And I get it.
I really do.
To me, this is going to soundcorny and I'm not trying to coin
this phrase, but it seems to meit's like, I don't know, I need
to figure it out, like a mediumspeed travel, like Riverside to
me, right?
It could be very fast, but thenit could be also extremely slow
where, you know, you get in port8 a.m.
and you're just relaxing on thedeck.
(16:29):
Or as one day I did, like I gotup in the morning, I went to the
gym at 8.30, I had my massage at10, then I jumped in in the pool
around like 1130.
And then I spent the next fourhours just sitting up on the
deck with a book.
As I mentioned earlier, thebutler, as I told him, please
every 45 minutes, have thatfresh drink and the fresh ice.
And I didn't move until aboutfive o'clock in the afternoon.
(16:52):
So that, you know, it doesn'treally get much slower than
that.
But then the following day up ateight o'clock to get on a bus,
to go like an hour somewhere to,you know, do this all day
excursion.
And it was extremely quick.
We were moving, moving, moving,moving, moving.
So to me, it just kind of goesback and forth on what you want
to do.
But I think for the solotraveler, that at least...
(17:15):
How do I put this nicely?
At least has enough grace andpatience when they want to be by
themselves to interact justenough on a very intimate ship
where it's not possible to hideunless you're just going to sit
in your stateroom all day, whichkind of defeats the purpose, but
still be able to get out and dothose things by yourself and
perhaps reconvene that eveningat six o'clock and socialize
(17:37):
that way.
SPEAKER_02 (17:37):
Yeah.
Multi-paced.
SPEAKER_00 (17:40):
Exactly.
Multi-paced.
Exactly.
Maybe that, there it is.
I'm going to start using that asa hashtag, multi-paced.
We're pointing it out.
Right?
Multi-paced.
It's yours.
I'm going to literally give youcredit.
I'm buying the URL.
Multi-paced travel.
There we go.
I
SPEAKER_02 (17:56):
love it.
SPEAKER_01 (17:57):
So what advice would you have for younger travelers
that are thinking about maybe ariver cruise or trying it out?
How would they know if it'sright for them?
SPEAKER_02 (18:07):
Right before.
for investing the money withoutgoing.
That's hard.
Listen to our podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (18:12):
Watch all of our videos.
Yes, watch all that.
I mean, do your researchwherever that is.
I mean, is it social mediaplatforms?
Is it articles?
Is it digital articles?
Is it word of mouth?
Ask these questions in allseriousness.
Listen to podcasts.
And then I know it's, dependingon the generation, it's not
(18:33):
typical, but also calling up theactual cruise line or a travel
agent and just having a realconversation with them.
Like, here's how I like totravel and being honest with
yourself.
If you don't want to be around alot of people, if you don't want
to do X, but you do want to dothis, figure out like what's the
best platform for you.
But then also what's the bestcruise line, because also budget
(18:56):
is going to be a bigconsideration for you quite as
well, like flights going out andall that.
So are you the type of personthat, you know, doesn't want to
spend any extra money?
You want to pay one flat fee andthen and leave me alone, or
you'd rather pay something alittle bit less, but then you
decide what add-ons you wantduring or at the end.
It just depends on what kind oftraveler you are and just having
(19:17):
a real conversation withyourself.
SPEAKER_02 (19:19):
Yeah.
I think also, I won't speak foryou, Noel, but People should not
be afraid to reach out to thepeople that made the articles or
their videos or the social mediathat they are watching.
I love when people reach out tous and have a follow-up
question.
Good.
So reach out to those people.
You don't have to guess.
It doesn't have to be acrapshoot just, you know, based
(19:42):
on your research and educateddecision.
And you could have aconversation with any of us
about those needs and we havebeen on them.
So we are another resource.
And I'm not saying that just toplug things.
We started this podcast and ourwebsite because we absolutely
love small shifts and it is ourjoy to be able to spread the
word and see if it is a rightfit for people.
(20:04):
And if it's not a right fit forsomebody, I'll tell them.
I
SPEAKER_00 (20:06):
mean, I absolutely, I love it.
I wish people reached out moreand they reach out quite a bit.
I'll probably get three to fiveDMs or emails a week.
But I mean, part of the reasonwhy I got into this is to make
individuals that look like mefrom my community comfortable in
these spaces.
When I got back, I thinkactually it was during, but I
and respond because I think thethree of us, you know, we
(20:27):
probably had one too manydrinks.
I was like, you know what?
I'm just I'm going to wait tillI get back to America.
But asking, hey, Noel, I waslooking at your photos and were
you the only person of color onthe ship?
And I was like, no, I don'tthink so.
And I was like, it was prettydiverse racially, but also by
age and gender.
And they're like, hey, I needyou to give me the real.
What was it like?
(20:47):
And I was like, look, as someonethat spent quite a bit of time
in Europe in my lifetime, I waslike, yeah, there were no
cultural issues there and onboard.
They were asking me prices andstuff like that.
And we broke it down.
I actually got on a voice callwith them and I was like, ask me
your questions.
I really did get into to thesethings because, not to make this
a racial thing, but for me,amongst African Americans in the
(21:09):
United States, we have moreaccess to things than we ever
had in the history of thiscountry.
There are more well-off AfricanAmericans and Black individuals
in this country than there waswhen I was born in 1980.
And now that we have theresources, we're still lacking
the knowledge of how to interactand move in these areas.
We're just not used to it.
It's not a generational thing.
(21:31):
Your parents may not have donethat.
If they have, great, but itdoesn't usually go back six,
seven, eight generations.
You're new to these type ofexperiences.
So I'll get a lot of questionsof like, well, how do I book
this?
Or how do I interact?
Or what should I wear?
Or how should I think aboutthis?
And I'm like, here's myexperience, right?
And yours might be a little bitdifferent, but here's the things
I think of, because I'm notgonna speak for you, Dan, but a
(21:54):
little bit, you know, I canrelate to as a woman where
you're in certain spaces andyou're just like, look, am I
gonna be safe?
Or what's this gonna be like?
Things that you just think ofnaturally because you've been a
woman all your life, right?
In the same way I've been blackall my life, How do I think
about this where it's like,okay, am I going somewhere where
I'm not gonna be accepted,right?
And those are things that a lotof African Americans think of
(22:16):
when they're traveling,obviously within the US, but
also overseas, how are theygonna be received?
And those are a lot of questionsthat are posed to me really on a
weekly basis on where am Igoing?
Not to get on a pedestal, butone of my tenants is literally
making travel more accessiblefor people in my community or
diverse communities in general,by going on these trips.
(22:38):
and showing it's okay to dothese things.
Or when something is a littlebit funky, I'm going to give it
to you like, yeah, you mightwant to be careful there, right?
Because people had someinteresting, I'm going to be
nice because it's your podcast,some interesting comments
towards me.
But on this cruise, it was noneof that.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
If I might give a shout out, this is part of why
we love supporting the BlackTravel Alliance.
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
Yeah, I love them.
I'm a member.
So it's a lot of dollars there.
So I'm glad to see that thereis, that brands are missing out.
Brands are missing out on that.
SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
Yeah.
And that's a perfect segue toask how can brands reach these
not only culturally diversepeople, but multi-generation,
not just grandparents takingtheir grandkids.
How can they appeal to theyounger audience for them to
help these young travelers opentheir eyes to this amazing small
(23:28):
ship cruising world?
SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
All right.
You have two hours on thispodcast now.
SPEAKER_02 (23:32):
Yeah, we
SPEAKER_00 (23:32):
do.
You're like, oh, we got like 10minutes.
Let
SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
me pop pop.
Let's
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
see.
There's so many ways to attackthis.
I'm a storyteller, so I want totell a quick story so people can
understand a little bit betterthan getting too technical with
PR and all that stuff.
So the three of us are aroundthe same age, roughly, even
though someone pointed out thatthey're in their early 40s.
Okay, we're going to...
You caught that, Dan, right?
I was like, okay, it's fine.
It's okay.
(23:58):
It's all right.
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
Dan's older than
SPEAKER_00 (24:01):
you.
You're in the middle.
Yeah, but I'm like, Dan and Iare the same age, but that's all
right.
It's okay.
I'm sure in our grand parents'generation when radio was the
main platform.
That's how brands and peoplecommunicated with each other
through radio.
That's how you sold ads.
That's how you sold cars.
That's how you sold washingmachines, right?
(24:21):
And then in the late, early 60s,as my grandfather used to call
it, the idiot box came out knownas television.
And I'm confident that for thosethat were making hundreds of
thousands, if not millions ofdollars through radio were very
hesitant to switch over, right?
This was their bread and butter.
(24:42):
This is what they knew, right?
And they protected their turf.
But as we know from history, itdidn't take long for TV to
overtake radio.
So TV came on and within 10years, if not sooner, it was the
primary form of the way peoplecommunicated and were able to
sell their brands and ads, andthen we know the explosion from
(25:05):
there.
Network television, so on and soforth.
It doesn't mean that radio justwent kaput, right?
It just went the way of thedinosaurs.
It just slowly tailed off.
And I would argue it took, what,60 years for it to almost
completely die?
I mean, I feel like now in 2025,no one really listens to free
radio.
You have satellite, things havemorphed into podcasts, like
(25:27):
clearly, but as far is turningthe FM dial.
Now with most cars, you can justhook in your phone or Bluetooth
and you listen to your ownmusic.
Why listen to FM radio or youhave audio books?
So I bring that up as acomparison to where we are now.
Traditional media in the senseof broadcast television, writing
articles for major magazines andmajor newspapers, I'm not saying
(25:51):
that we just get rid of itcompletely.
I'm a journalist.
I enjoy writing articles forbrands.
There's still a healthy amountof the population, baby boomers,
older Gen Xers, that that isstill their primary form of
consuming information.
However, it is just simple math.
Who is going to live longer, a75-year-old that's a baby boomer
(26:14):
or a 25-year-old?
Is 25 like Gen Z?
Is that Gen Z?
It's not millennials.
Is that Gen Z?
Oh, I don't even know.
Okay.
We'll just say Gen Z and thenalpha and beta after that.
They do not consume informationthe same way.
You mentioned that RiversideLuxury Cruise is on the cover of
Food and Wine or Travel andLeisure or New York Times.
(26:37):
And they're going to be like,yeah, okay.
They don't read thosepublications.
Where do they go?
And it's been shown throughdata.
Whether they have$20,000 or$20million, they're still picking
up their phone.
TikTok.
Instagram, right?
That's where they get theinformation.
And brands are slow, in myopinion, especially in the
(27:00):
hospitality world, to changethat.
You can make the argument thatthe gatekeepers are from the
baby boomer generation and theydon't quite understand it.
You can make the argument thatthose in the PR and traditional
media world are protecting theirturf because that's where they
make their bones from andthere's nothing wrong with that.
But to me, it comes down to thebottom line of money, right?
(27:23):
and resources, and if theyounger generation is screaming
at you saying, we don't readthose things, we don't look at
them, this is how we get theirinformation, start meeting them
where they are.
As painful as it may be, Iunderstand, I raised an eyebrow
to TikTok, I'm 45, TikTok wasnot made for my generation, it
just wasn't.
I'm sure TikTok is happy whenthere's 45-year-olds on there,
(27:45):
but we know it's made forteenagers, right?
It's not made for individuals,RAs specifically.
However, if you're trying toadvertise your podcast show, if
I'm trying to advertise what Ido, it's a mistake not being on
those platforms and trying tofind a way to advertise what we
do to them.
So I know it was a bit long whatI'm saying, but I wanted to give
(28:07):
a full example of this is wherebrands need to go.
So to bring it home for RiverCruises that literally have a
reputation of being older,right?
Where you look at VikingCruises, every commercial it's
someone that looks 20 yearsolder than the three of us,
easily 20 years older.
I don't think I've ever seenanyone that presents as 20, 30,
(28:29):
probably even 40 years old onViking cruises.
They have made a ton of money,and I love their hustle on that,
but how sustainable is that whenthose 60, 70, 80, 90-year-olds
are either not able to travel orthey're deceased?
What happens to the 20 to 40year old that's like, I'm not
(28:50):
going on biking cruises.
Now this cruise is like the onewe went on that's like, we're
gonna really double down on thataffluent luxury, high income
traveler that's between 20 and60, not just between 50 and 80
years old.
So to me, that is the educationprocess for a lot of brands and
(29:10):
especially for river cruises.
They are perceived in my strongopinion as an older person way
of traveling, not someoneyounger.
SPEAKER_02 (29:19):
So it sounds like they're perceived like that
because of the marketing thatthey've done historically over
time.
So to flip it around, to play alittle bit of devil's advocate
SPEAKER_03 (29:30):
for
SPEAKER_02 (29:31):
our listeners, especially if I am on social
media and I see somebody onbiking who is young, is that a
good indicator that it might bea good cruise line for me?
SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
I think it's at the very least something to get your
attention, maybe what is an ador marketing, but to get your
attention.
I don't know if you cannecessarily fully sell someone a
just based on you're seeing it,right?
I don't know, maybe I'm a cynic,but just because I see LeBron
James drinking Pepsi doesn'tmean necessarily like I'm going
to go out and buy 20 cases.
But at the very least, I can sayit got my attention.
(30:04):
And then I'm going to do my ownresearch and decide if Pepsi is
for me.
Or recently, I think AmazonPrime Day, I saw this
commercial.
I already have Amazon Prime, soyou already got me.
But imagine I did it.
I saw LeBron doing it.
It's going to at least get myattention.
So to your question, do I thinkjust putting someone that looks
the younger than us on a socialmedia post is going to get
someone to spend$20,000 on ariver cruise right off the bat?
(30:27):
Probably not.
But consistently, if you'redoing that, if you're putting
out material that they'reenjoying, it's enough to get
someone's attention where atleast you get a phone call or an
email.
Perhaps that leads to, you knowwhat, I'm going to give this a
try.
And I think that's the part thatViking and many other brands
inside river cruising miss outon.
(30:47):
Their philosophy or narrative isstill promoting tours magazines
in traditional forms of media,and that does not work on social
media.
SPEAKER_02 (30:55):
I think that kind of wraps everything up in a nice
bow in terms of do yourresearch, look at not just the
person who is doing the socialmedia that might be younger, but
see if you can glance at who isin the video when you're looking
at the lounge, right?
And if they are older people,then like you said, just know
thyself.
(31:16):
Are you going to be comfortableif you are the youngest one
there?
Let's assume you're going to bethe youngest one.
the youngest one there.
If you are younger listening tothis and you want to go on,
where are your boundaries interms of, like you said, Noel?
SPEAKER_00 (31:27):
And own it.
And that's the thing.
You have to mean it.
One of my biggest pet peeves,and it's a little tongue in
cheek, but you guys will get it,is when I see brands and they
find the one or two black peopleon the entire campus or at the
company and they're promotingthem.
And then you get there and it'slike, oh, you're a company of
10,000 people.
You found the two to five blackindividuals and you put them out
(31:49):
in front of me and Do I reallylook that uninformed?
Like I know better.
You know what I mean?
It's like, you know, it's noknock on the state, but it's
like maybe Idaho or Montana orsomething like that.
And you're in your commercial,you're putting all these diverse
individuals.
And I'm like, is there reallythat much diversity in the
state?
My thing is don't mislead anddon't lie.
You can be honest.
(32:10):
Imagine, you know, maybe this isa free commercial for Viking.
We know we have trended for babyboomers and Gen Xers for the
last 20 years, but Viking istrying to get young by offering
these type of cruises.
We still have work to do, butwe're willing to make the
commitment.
Something like that versus, toyour point, putting a
20-year-old on the front of thecruise line jumping off and
(32:32):
you're just like, oh, this is astunt.
The three of us know betterbecause we know the business.
Oh, this is a stunt.
There's no one 20 years old on aViking cruise unless their
grandparents brought them,right?
And then you get on there andit's nothing like the
commercial.
So I think that's anothermistake to me that brands make
where it's just you trying tomake yourself appear like
something that you're not, justbe honest about it.
(32:54):
We have a lot of work to do, butwe're trying to get there.
SPEAKER_02 (32:57):
Yeah.
I hope over time we can find ahappy medium, like which came
first, the younger generationsor the marketing to the younger
generations.
And maybe like over time thatgap is closed and maybe the
three of us will be the posterchildren for River Cruises.
SPEAKER_00 (33:14):
That's, that's funny.
20 years that we'll be on Vikingor another.
I hear you saying, but I, youknow, I just want to say Really
try and experience a rivercruise.
Unless you are definitely afraidof the water, it is worth the
experience.
There's so much more to do onand off the vessel than you
think there is.
It is worth it.
(33:34):
Try a little bit of everything.
Go to multiple countries andhave the intimacy of a small
crew that's attentive.
I think it's definitely worthit.
SPEAKER_01 (33:43):
Well, thank you so much, Noel.
Of course.
I appreciate you stopping by.
Tell our listeners where theycan find you and more of you.
SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
Absolutely.
So you can type in my name,N-O-E-L-B-U-R-G-E, and that's
subtle, subtle G, B-U-R-G-E-S-S.
You can find me on Forbes,Forbes.com.
You can find me on Instagram.
It's Mr.
Noel Burgess.
Also, I have a small but growingtravel show called On Our Way on
(34:10):
YouTube.
So just type in Noel Burgess OnOur Way, and you'll be able to
find me there.
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
We are supporters to the max and subscribers.
All of that is going to be inthe show notes so maybe you're
driving and you can't write thatdown but don't worry just check
out the description or the shownotes whatever you want to call
it and it will be there we lovetraveling with you we're so
lucky we met that way
SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
gotta do it again we gotta do it again we gotta
coordinate because you guys aregreat to be able to interact
with it was just too fun of atime
SPEAKER_02 (34:41):
same well thanks so much and until next episode we
wish you safe travels and talkto you then
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
thank you guys thank you
UNKNOWN (34:49):
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome to Small Ship Cruise Talk, a show where
we share insider tips andfirst-hand experiences about
this outstanding, yetlesser-known form of travel.
We are passionate about sharingour knowledge about river
cruises, expedition, yacht, andbarge cruises, so you are
informed when it comes tochoosing your own vacation
experiences.
(00:23):
We're your co-hosts, Dan andMikel, and we are your cruise
experts and the co-founders ofSometimes Sailing, a website
that focuses on small shipcruise Welcome to another
edition of small ship cruisetalk Today, we are extremely
excited to have Noel Burgesswith us.
(00:43):
Now, we met Noel on a Riversideluxury cruise ship a couple
months ago.
We did.
We were cruising the...
The Rhine.
The Rhine.
The Rhine.
Mikel usually says the romanticRhine, so you went full-on
German with it.
Yes.
I'm sorry.
It's a romantic Rhine, but wewent up the Rhine.
(01:04):
Excellent.
SPEAKER_02 (01:06):
I like that, actually.
SPEAKER_01 (01:07):
So through our conversations, we realized we
have to bring you on andintroduce you to our audience
because you have a greatperspective on the younger
traveler as kind of beingintroduced to river cruising or
small ship format cruising.
I know our listeners are goingto be really interested in that.
So, Noel, if you could introduceyourself.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
Sure.
Absolutely.
So Noel Burgess, it's subtle G,so not guess or Jess, it's
Burgess.
So I like to joke it's a subtleG.
Grew up in Connecticut, so NewEnglander, moved out to
California about 10 years ago.
I was in human resources forabout 15 years.
And then during the pandemic,like most of us, having a hard
(01:49):
time and looked at my career andwhat I was doing and found that
I was able to take those skillsand move them into more of the
multimedia storytelling aspect.
So I focus mostly on food,beverage and travel, how brands
can reach younger and broaderconsumers And then also for
those consumers, how they cannavigate these new areas that
(02:11):
either culturally or diversitylike they weren't allowed to or
just don't have a lot ofexperience in some of these
these places.
And I think one of them, as yousaid earlier, is river cruises.
you know, I'll be 45 this year.
So I'm literally 80s baby, 80.
And, you know, growing up, Ithought of River Cruises as,
(02:32):
that's something my grandfatherand grandmother used to do,
right?
Like they're playingshuffleboard and, you know, some
disgusting Bermuda shorts and ahat on a River Cruise deck.
And that's how I saw it.
And I just didn't see it assomething that in my youth, I
guess, I guess we'remiddle-aged, I guess 45.
Well, I mean, if you think aboutit, you know, I don't want to
(02:53):
off on a tangent right but it'slike i said it the other day and
i was around someone that was intheir 70s like you're not
middle-aged and i'm like okay solet's break this down
mathematically If literally youmultiply my age by two, that's
90.
So I think it's middle age.
It's safe to say 45 is middleage.
You know what I mean?
But anyway, I want to get off ona tangent.
(03:13):
Now I'm of age where some ofthese experiences now don't seem
so old.
And I think in general, even forindividuals that are 20 years
younger than me, there's still alot to be said about small
cruises.
SPEAKER_02 (03:26):
We've always felt like the sooner you get into
small ship cruising, the betteroff you are.
Agreed.
in on a secret that everybodyelse is going to find out later
in life and wish that they hadfound out sooner.
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
And the price goes up even more,
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:41):
It's like that small island that used to be so quaint
and cute and no one went to,right?
And then, you know, shout out toTulum, but Tulum is a good
example of that, right?
Where 20 years ago, oh my God,you can get there for pennies.
Now everybody and their motherand their dog wants to get there
and the price has gone up.
SPEAKER_02 (03:58):
Yeah.
What was your introduction tosmall ship cruises?
cruising in general?
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
So it was Riverside luxury cruises.
I had never been on a smallroom.
Well, I take that back.
I mean, in New Orleans, you goon like those riverboat cruises,
but you're not you're not reallygoing anywhere.
You're just going aroundlocally.
You're not in another countryand heading eight different
destinations.
So I think this was three yearsago and it was Danube.
So I believe it's the Mozart.
(04:24):
It was on assignment.
So I'm like, okay, theexaggerated eye roll.
And I'm like, okay, I'm going togo and I'm going to be the
youngest person by 30 years,except for other press on the
trip.
Everybody else will be super oldand that's okay.
Right.
I don't have an issue with that.
Cause I like to joke that I feellike generationally I'm the
middle child.
Like I'm stuck between babyboomers and Gen Z and
(04:46):
millennials.
And so it was my firstexperience and I went in there
with my eyes wide open and justlike, okay, we're going to try
this out.
And I was.
pleasantly surprised.
I wasn't the youngest person byfar on that cruise.
And even on the cruise, we wenton them.
There were quite a few 20 yearolds and 30 year olds.
I was extremely young, but maybeback in the seventies and
eighties, it was just somethingthat was advertised towards an
(05:10):
older generation, right?
Baby boomers were in theirforties at that point.
Like, yeah, this is for us.
And then of course they've agedwith the brand.
And I think along the way, theseriver cruisers weren't able to
pick up younger generations.
They just doubled down, tripleddown on on baby boomers and Gen
Xs and went with it.
And I don't blame them, youknow, follow the money, get
yours.
I don't have an issue with that.
(05:30):
But then how do you, right?
How do you sustain long-termviability?
They didn't pick up themillennials, you know, along the
way and say like, hey, this isnot just your grandparents type
of travel.
This is something that you caneither go on with them or just
do it, do it yourself.
And I think they missed out onthat.
And now you're starting to seeRiverside, Emma and other ones
(05:53):
trying to get and doing a prettygood job of getting younger
individuals involved in rivercruising
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
yeah what what experiences do you think they
offer that makes them luxury.
And then second part of that iswould appeal to a younger
audience.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
So I compare them to the big ocean liner cruises.
So they're both cruises, justone's on the ocean and literally
one's on a river.
But I know my issue with cruisesin the beginning were that it's
like, okay, this is a collegesoup kitchen, right?
Like, is this a buffet style?
And I'm not agoraphobic.
I want to be very clear to theaudience.
I'm not agoraphobic at all.
(06:32):
But even on some of these largecruises, I mean, you have 5,000
people, you're shoulder toshoulder, and you're standing in
line, and you know, there'sscreaming children, and there's
teen angst in the pool, and it'sjust a lot, right?
A lot of moving parts.
And to me, the river cruises aresmaller, more intimate, and
(06:54):
you're able to really focus inon things that the larger
cruises just can't give you theindividualized service.
So you have the great food, butit's not for 4,000 people.
It's for 40 people or 100individuals.
It's easier to get on and offthe ship because you're not
standing in line for an hour anda half to get off.
(07:15):
For those that may lean towardsantisocial behavior, it's just
much easier, I think, for thosethat are a bit shyer to deal
with 40 people than 4,000individuals, right?
You meet one or two people thatyou get along with, right?
And you focus in on them forseven to 10 days and you're
good.
The other thing I would say isfrom a From a socioeconomic
(07:37):
standpoint, I know river cruisesmay seem like they cost a bit
more, but it's another way tothink about it.
This is how I think about it.
Imagine you're booking yourvacation and go somewhere that
you've never been before, andyou're spending anywhere between
$2,000 to$10,000.
You have no idea what to expectwhen you get to that island or
(07:57):
that country.
And you spend all this money,and hopefully it works out for
you, but sometimes it doesn't.
You absolutely hate it there,and you just dropped 10 grand.
to me with a river cruisehitting seven or eight spots
you're able to figure out whatare the places that you like
best and then you come back andyou drop that seven eight grand
right so we were in amsterdam wewere in germany we were in
(08:21):
france and we end up inswitzerland so we stopped at
what maybe eight, nine spots,because I know we did two in a
day some of the days.
And I like some places betterthan others.
And I'm like, huh, I'm going todrop my money, right, in the
next one or two years to comeback here and check out, you
know, the Chocolate Museum inCologne, right?
And we went to a beer garden.
And I was like, okay, this issome place that I like.
(08:43):
There was other places, and Iwon't shout them out because I
don't want to hurt theirtourism, but that I wasn't,
right, that I wasn't too keenon.
So maybe I need another rivercruise to figure that part out,
but I'm not going to drop sevengrand to go back back there and
purchase a hotel.
So my point is the long windedway of me saying you're able to
taste, pun intended, a lot ofdifferent places all in one trip
(09:05):
and then figure out what suitsyou.
I'll be nice today.
The younger generation, theattention span can be fickle.
So now every day you're hittinga new spot.
You're hitting a new spot.
You're hitting a new spot.
And I think that's somethingthat really vies with the
younger generation.
SPEAKER_02 (09:19):
To your point, you hit more spots on a river cruise
than you do on a big shipbecause they're there the entire
day.
And you're right, youngergenerations I don't want to brag
about me being a youngergeneration.
I'm still in my 40s, you guys,but I am the youngest of the
three of us.
SPEAKER_00 (09:38):
By like two years.
Get out of here.
SPEAKER_02 (09:43):
But my attention span is not great.
And I do enjoy one city in themorning and then a city in the
afternoon.
Some days we're in the city frommorning until late in the night,
but it was a nice aspect of it.
And additionally, another pointyou made about the cost and
this, I would say, misconceptionthat it's so expensive.
You made a great point about itbeing maybe riskier to be
(10:07):
somewhere.
I mean, we went to Tulum to takeTulum as the example,
SPEAKER_03 (10:11):
and
SPEAKER_02 (10:12):
we were not into it.
So that was riskier, if you askme, and to your point, than
something that, you know, youpay for your flights, you pay
for the river cruise.
Most of them include gratuities,or you can opt to include
gratuities.
And there's not variables.
You're not spending money onanything else, really, unless
you want to have dinner in townunless you want to go out and
(10:34):
shop.
That's up to you.
And that's a choice.
Right.
And that's a choice.
But there's less variables.
It's almost like it minimizesthe financial risk.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
I agree.
Vacations can be stressful for alot of reasons, who you're with,
what you're seeing, packing,getting on the plane.
And then, you know, you, as Iwas saying to one of the
passengers on our cruise, Iunderstand like this other
cruises.
And again, it's no knock on themthat you pay quite a sum of
money and then you have to payeven more once you get on for
this type of dinner or you'repaying for these excursions.
(11:07):
And with Riverside, not to hypethem up too much, but I'm just
telling the truth.
It's like you pay this price andit's not super cheap and that's
okay.
It's literally a luxury cruiseline, but you don't pay anything
else once you get aboard.
And for those that enjoy theirspirits, as I do, show of hands,
I enjoy my spirits, right?
It's all included.
(11:28):
So if you're going there for anearly happy hour at 11.59 a.m.
because it's happy hoursomewhere, and if you're there
at midnight, like we were acouple of those nights when Dan
didn't go to bed at 7 p.m.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
High-end meals throughout thethe day, the barbecue on the
deck, having dinner and having amenu that changed every night.
(11:49):
It wasn't the same thing unlessyou want to eat the same thing,
right?
So they had the menu where ifyou wanted the steak every
night, you could have it.
But the main courses, theychanged every night.
And I think that's somethingthat I appreciate it.
And I know we talked about alittle bit, but given the day
that you're on the cruise, somedays you're not feeling getting
off the ship.
And there were a couple of daysI was like, you know what?
(12:11):
We're in this port.
It's 80 degrees outside.
The sun is there.
I'm gonna go up there, right?
And I'm gonna oil up the legsand the face so I don't get
sunburned.
And I'm gonna sit on the deckfor four or five hours and have
one of the nice butlers bring mea drink.
As I said to him, I was like,every 45 minutes, I need you to
fill my cup.
And he did.
(12:31):
And I think that's, to me, theproposition value of a river
cruise.
Be able to meet friendly peopleand hang out with them.
And if you wanna do your ownthing, you can.
You can get in the pool thatthey had on board or not.
You can take a e-bike and goaround the city or not.
You can eat yourself into a comaand then literally go to the gym
(12:53):
and then go downstairs and get amassage, right?
I think there's so much more todo than I think people realize
depending on how you like tovacation and how you like to
relax.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
Yeah.
You really bring up such a greatpoint.
It's all about thatpersonalization.
You can literally choose yourown adventure by staying on the
vessel or else going into town.
or else take an excursion orgrabbing a bike and doing
something on your own.
It's all up to you to make thisvacation your adventure.
SPEAKER_00 (13:23):
There are some cons.
I think for a smaller cruise,unfortunately, if you don't get
along with a bunch of people,there's nowhere to hide.
You can hide on a 6,000-personship pretty easily.
You cannot hide on a 110-personship.
There's nowhere to hide on that.
Also, if you don't do yourresearch and look at the
destinations and some of theexcursions, if they don't vibe
(13:43):
with what you're doing, then Ican see that being, you know, a
tough trip.
On the, as you say, the romanticRhine.
I'm sorry, I have to do theeyebrow.
The romantic Rhine.
If you're not into German wine,if you're not into chocolate, if
you're not into rich foods, it'sprobably not the best cruise to
take, right?
They have many on many differentrivers, but just also doing a
(14:05):
little bit of homework on that.
And then Riverside specificallyis luxury.
It's the difference betweenflying in economy, economy plus,
Plus business and first classand Riverside and the name is
luxury.
It is first class.
So it tends to be pricier thansome other river cruises.
You just need to figure outwhat's best for your budget and
(14:27):
what you want to spend yourmoney on.
SPEAKER_02 (14:29):
I have two questions.
Well, a point and a question.
The point, our first Riversidecruise, we had a lovely two or
three days hanging out with acouple that was on their
honeymoon and they wanted to tryriver cruising.
They were in their earlythirties and it was the perfect
opportunity to do land andriver.
(14:50):
I want to say land and sea, butit's the river, land and river
with Riverside because they dothose shorter option
itineraries.
So that's a great thing.
And my question is, what do youthink about a solo traveler if
you're young and you know, Theanswer could be not good for a
solo traveler or going with afriend or a spouse for younger
(15:13):
generations, younger people inparticular.
And I'm talking about adultsthat are going to travel, not a
multi-generational trip withyour grandparents and that kind
of thing.
What do you think about a solotraveler versus going with other
people?
I
SPEAKER_00 (15:27):
think if someone travels by themselves quite a
bit, it just depends on whatyou're into and how social or
antisocial you tend to be.
And are there spaces where youcan be by yourself?
yourself and do things on yourown or you have to constantly be
in a group which can be drainingfor someone that just doesn't
have that personality type.
I think it's great just to havethat itinerary kind of pre-plan
(15:48):
of like these are the days thatyou're going to socialize and
see what those excursions orwhat the ship is doing on board
and then those days where youcan take the e-bike and you can
go around Amsterdam for the dayor Cologne for the day and kind
of do your own thing.
To me, the trendy thing to saynow is like slow travel, right?
(16:08):
And I get it.
I really do.
To me, this is going to soundcorny and I'm not trying to coin
this phrase, but it seems to meit's like, I don't know, I need
to figure it out, like a mediumspeed travel, like Riverside to
me, right?
It could be very fast, but thenit could be also extremely slow
where, you know, you get in port8 a.m.
and you're just relaxing on thedeck.
(16:29):
Or as one day I did, like I gotup in the morning, I went to the
gym at 8.30, I had my massage at10, then I jumped in in the pool
around like 1130.
And then I spent the next fourhours just sitting up on the
deck with a book.
As I mentioned earlier, thebutler, as I told him, please
every 45 minutes, have thatfresh drink and the fresh ice.
And I didn't move until aboutfive o'clock in the afternoon.
(16:52):
So that, you know, it doesn'treally get much slower than
that.
But then the following day up ateight o'clock to get on a bus,
to go like an hour somewhere to,you know, do this all day
excursion.
And it was extremely quick.
We were moving, moving, moving,moving, moving.
So to me, it just kind of goesback and forth on what you want
to do.
But I think for the solotraveler, that at least...
(17:15):
How do I put this nicely?
At least has enough grace andpatience when they want to be by
themselves to interact justenough on a very intimate ship
where it's not possible to hideunless you're just going to sit
in your stateroom all day, whichkind of defeats the purpose, but
still be able to get out and dothose things by yourself and
perhaps reconvene that eveningat six o'clock and socialize
(17:37):
that way.
SPEAKER_02 (17:37):
Yeah.
Multi-paced.
SPEAKER_00 (17:40):
Exactly.
Multi-paced.
Exactly.
Maybe that, there it is.
I'm going to start using that asa hashtag, multi-paced.
We're pointing it out.
Right?
Multi-paced.
It's yours.
I'm going to literally give youcredit.
I'm buying the URL.
Multi-paced travel.
There we go.
I
SPEAKER_02 (17:56):
love it.
SPEAKER_01 (17:57):
So what advice would you have for younger travelers
that are thinking about maybe ariver cruise or trying it out?
How would they know if it'sright for them?
SPEAKER_02 (18:07):
Right before.
for investing the money withoutgoing.
That's hard.
Listen to our podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (18:12):
Watch all of our videos.
Yes, watch all that.
I mean, do your researchwherever that is.
I mean, is it social mediaplatforms?
Is it articles?
Is it digital articles?
Is it word of mouth?
Ask these questions in allseriousness.
Listen to podcasts.
And then I know it's, dependingon the generation, it's not
(18:33):
typical, but also calling up theactual cruise line or a travel
agent and just having a realconversation with them.
Like, here's how I like totravel and being honest with
yourself.
If you don't want to be around alot of people, if you don't want
to do X, but you do want to dothis, figure out like what's the
best platform for you.
But then also what's the bestcruise line, because also budget
(18:56):
is going to be a bigconsideration for you quite as
well, like flights going out andall that.
So are you the type of personthat, you know, doesn't want to
spend any extra money?
You want to pay one flat fee andthen and leave me alone, or
you'd rather pay something alittle bit less, but then you
decide what add-ons you wantduring or at the end.
It just depends on what kind oftraveler you are and just having
(19:17):
a real conversation withyourself.
SPEAKER_02 (19:19):
Yeah.
I think also, I won't speak foryou, Noel, but People should not
be afraid to reach out to thepeople that made the articles or
their videos or the social mediathat they are watching.
I love when people reach out tous and have a follow-up
question.
Good.
So reach out to those people.
You don't have to guess.
It doesn't have to be acrapshoot just, you know, based
(19:42):
on your research and educateddecision.
And you could have aconversation with any of us
about those needs and we havebeen on them.
So we are another resource.
And I'm not saying that just toplug things.
We started this podcast and ourwebsite because we absolutely
love small shifts and it is ourjoy to be able to spread the
word and see if it is a rightfit for people.
(20:04):
And if it's not a right fit forsomebody, I'll tell them.
I
SPEAKER_00 (20:06):
mean, I absolutely, I love it.
I wish people reached out moreand they reach out quite a bit.
I'll probably get three to fiveDMs or emails a week.
But I mean, part of the reasonwhy I got into this is to make
individuals that look like mefrom my community comfortable in
these spaces.
When I got back, I thinkactually it was during, but I
and respond because I think thethree of us, you know, we
(20:27):
probably had one too manydrinks.
I was like, you know what?
I'm just I'm going to wait tillI get back to America.
But asking, hey, Noel, I waslooking at your photos and were
you the only person of color onthe ship?
And I was like, no, I don'tthink so.
And I was like, it was prettydiverse racially, but also by
age and gender.
And they're like, hey, I needyou to give me the real.
What was it like?
(20:47):
And I was like, look, as someonethat spent quite a bit of time
in Europe in my lifetime, I waslike, yeah, there were no
cultural issues there and onboard.
They were asking me prices andstuff like that.
And we broke it down.
I actually got on a voice callwith them and I was like, ask me
your questions.
I really did get into to thesethings because, not to make this
a racial thing, but for me,amongst African Americans in the
(21:09):
United States, we have moreaccess to things than we ever
had in the history of thiscountry.
There are more well-off AfricanAmericans and Black individuals
in this country than there waswhen I was born in 1980.
And now that we have theresources, we're still lacking
the knowledge of how to interactand move in these areas.
We're just not used to it.
It's not a generational thing.
(21:31):
Your parents may not have donethat.
If they have, great, but itdoesn't usually go back six,
seven, eight generations.
You're new to these type ofexperiences.
So I'll get a lot of questionsof like, well, how do I book
this?
Or how do I interact?
Or what should I wear?
Or how should I think aboutthis?
And I'm like, here's myexperience, right?
And yours might be a little bitdifferent, but here's the things
I think of, because I'm notgonna speak for you, Dan, but a
(21:54):
little bit, you know, I canrelate to as a woman where
you're in certain spaces andyou're just like, look, am I
gonna be safe?
Or what's this gonna be like?
Things that you just think ofnaturally because you've been a
woman all your life, right?
In the same way I've been blackall my life, How do I think
about this where it's like,okay, am I going somewhere where
I'm not gonna be accepted,right?
And those are things that a lotof African Americans think of
(22:16):
when they're traveling,obviously within the US, but
also overseas, how are theygonna be received?
And those are a lot of questionsthat are posed to me really on a
weekly basis on where am Igoing?
Not to get on a pedestal, butone of my tenants is literally
making travel more accessiblefor people in my community or
diverse communities in general,by going on these trips.
(22:38):
and showing it's okay to dothese things.
Or when something is a littlebit funky, I'm going to give it
to you like, yeah, you mightwant to be careful there, right?
Because people had someinteresting, I'm going to be
nice because it's your podcast,some interesting comments
towards me.
But on this cruise, it was noneof that.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
If I might give a shout out, this is part of why
we love supporting the BlackTravel Alliance.
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
Yeah, I love them.
I'm a member.
So it's a lot of dollars there.
So I'm glad to see that thereis, that brands are missing out.
Brands are missing out on that.
SPEAKER_02 (23:07):
Yeah.
And that's a perfect segue toask how can brands reach these
not only culturally diversepeople, but multi-generation,
not just grandparents takingtheir grandkids.
How can they appeal to theyounger audience for them to
help these young travelers opentheir eyes to this amazing small
(23:28):
ship cruising world?
SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
All right.
You have two hours on thispodcast now.
SPEAKER_02 (23:32):
Yeah, we
SPEAKER_00 (23:32):
do.
You're like, oh, we got like 10minutes.
Let
SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
me pop pop.
Let's
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
see.
There's so many ways to attackthis.
I'm a storyteller, so I want totell a quick story so people can
understand a little bit betterthan getting too technical with
PR and all that stuff.
So the three of us are aroundthe same age, roughly, even
though someone pointed out thatthey're in their early 40s.
Okay, we're going to...
You caught that, Dan, right?
I was like, okay, it's fine.
It's okay.
(23:58):
It's all right.
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
Dan's older than
SPEAKER_00 (24:01):
you.
You're in the middle.
Yeah, but I'm like, Dan and Iare the same age, but that's all
right.
It's okay.
I'm sure in our grand parents'generation when radio was the
main platform.
That's how brands and peoplecommunicated with each other
through radio.
That's how you sold ads.
That's how you sold cars.
That's how you sold washingmachines, right?
(24:21):
And then in the late, early 60s,as my grandfather used to call
it, the idiot box came out knownas television.
And I'm confident that for thosethat were making hundreds of
thousands, if not millions ofdollars through radio were very
hesitant to switch over, right?
This was their bread and butter.
(24:42):
This is what they knew, right?
And they protected their turf.
But as we know from history, itdidn't take long for TV to
overtake radio.
So TV came on and within 10years, if not sooner, it was the
primary form of the way peoplecommunicated and were able to
sell their brands and ads, andthen we know the explosion from
(25:05):
there.
Network television, so on and soforth.
It doesn't mean that radio justwent kaput, right?
It just went the way of thedinosaurs.
It just slowly tailed off.
And I would argue it took, what,60 years for it to almost
completely die?
I mean, I feel like now in 2025,no one really listens to free
radio.
You have satellite, things havemorphed into podcasts, like
(25:27):
clearly, but as far is turningthe FM dial.
Now with most cars, you can justhook in your phone or Bluetooth
and you listen to your ownmusic.
Why listen to FM radio or youhave audio books?
So I bring that up as acomparison to where we are now.
Traditional media in the senseof broadcast television, writing
articles for major magazines andmajor newspapers, I'm not saying
(25:51):
that we just get rid of itcompletely.
I'm a journalist.
I enjoy writing articles forbrands.
There's still a healthy amountof the population, baby boomers,
older Gen Xers, that that isstill their primary form of
consuming information.
However, it is just simple math.
Who is going to live longer, a75-year-old that's a baby boomer
(26:14):
or a 25-year-old?
Is 25 like Gen Z?
Is that Gen Z?
It's not millennials.
Is that Gen Z?
Oh, I don't even know.
Okay.
We'll just say Gen Z and thenalpha and beta after that.
They do not consume informationthe same way.
You mentioned that RiversideLuxury Cruise is on the cover of
Food and Wine or Travel andLeisure or New York Times.
(26:37):
And they're going to be like,yeah, okay.
They don't read thosepublications.
Where do they go?
And it's been shown throughdata.
Whether they have$20,000 or$20million, they're still picking
up their phone.
TikTok.
Instagram, right?
That's where they get theinformation.
And brands are slow, in myopinion, especially in the
(27:00):
hospitality world, to changethat.
You can make the argument thatthe gatekeepers are from the
baby boomer generation and theydon't quite understand it.
You can make the argument thatthose in the PR and traditional
media world are protecting theirturf because that's where they
make their bones from andthere's nothing wrong with that.
But to me, it comes down to thebottom line of money, right?
(27:23):
and resources, and if theyounger generation is screaming
at you saying, we don't readthose things, we don't look at
them, this is how we get theirinformation, start meeting them
where they are.
As painful as it may be, Iunderstand, I raised an eyebrow
to TikTok, I'm 45, TikTok wasnot made for my generation, it
just wasn't.
I'm sure TikTok is happy whenthere's 45-year-olds on there,
(27:45):
but we know it's made forteenagers, right?
It's not made for individuals,RAs specifically.
However, if you're trying toadvertise your podcast show, if
I'm trying to advertise what Ido, it's a mistake not being on
those platforms and trying tofind a way to advertise what we
do to them.
So I know it was a bit long whatI'm saying, but I wanted to give
(28:07):
a full example of this is wherebrands need to go.
So to bring it home for RiverCruises that literally have a
reputation of being older,right?
Where you look at VikingCruises, every commercial it's
someone that looks 20 yearsolder than the three of us,
easily 20 years older.
I don't think I've ever seenanyone that presents as 20, 30,
(28:29):
probably even 40 years old onViking cruises.
They have made a ton of money,and I love their hustle on that,
but how sustainable is that whenthose 60, 70, 80, 90-year-olds
are either not able to travel orthey're deceased?
What happens to the 20 to 40year old that's like, I'm not
(28:50):
going on biking cruises.
Now this cruise is like the onewe went on that's like, we're
gonna really double down on thataffluent luxury, high income
traveler that's between 20 and60, not just between 50 and 80
years old.
So to me, that is the educationprocess for a lot of brands and
(29:10):
especially for river cruises.
They are perceived in my strongopinion as an older person way
of traveling, not someoneyounger.
SPEAKER_02 (29:19):
So it sounds like they're perceived like that
because of the marketing thatthey've done historically over
time.
So to flip it around, to play alittle bit of devil's advocate
SPEAKER_03 (29:30):
for
SPEAKER_02 (29:31):
our listeners, especially if I am on social
media and I see somebody onbiking who is young, is that a
good indicator that it might bea good cruise line for me?
SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
I think it's at the very least something to get your
attention, maybe what is an ador marketing, but to get your
attention.
I don't know if you cannecessarily fully sell someone a
just based on you're seeing it,right?
I don't know, maybe I'm a cynic,but just because I see LeBron
James drinking Pepsi doesn'tmean necessarily like I'm going
to go out and buy 20 cases.
But at the very least, I can sayit got my attention.
(30:04):
And then I'm going to do my ownresearch and decide if Pepsi is
for me.
Or recently, I think AmazonPrime Day, I saw this
commercial.
I already have Amazon Prime, soyou already got me.
But imagine I did it.
I saw LeBron doing it.
It's going to at least get myattention.
So to your question, do I thinkjust putting someone that looks
the younger than us on a socialmedia post is going to get
someone to spend$20,000 on ariver cruise right off the bat?
(30:27):
Probably not.
But consistently, if you'redoing that, if you're putting
out material that they'reenjoying, it's enough to get
someone's attention where atleast you get a phone call or an
email.
Perhaps that leads to, you knowwhat, I'm going to give this a
try.
And I think that's the part thatViking and many other brands
inside river cruising miss outon.
(30:47):
Their philosophy or narrative isstill promoting tours magazines
in traditional forms of media,and that does not work on social
media.
SPEAKER_02 (30:55):
I think that kind of wraps everything up in a nice
bow in terms of do yourresearch, look at not just the
person who is doing the socialmedia that might be younger, but
see if you can glance at who isin the video when you're looking
at the lounge, right?
And if they are older people,then like you said, just know
thyself.
(31:16):
Are you going to be comfortableif you are the youngest one
there?
Let's assume you're going to bethe youngest one.
the youngest one there.
If you are younger listening tothis and you want to go on,
where are your boundaries interms of, like you said, Noel?
SPEAKER_00 (31:27):
And own it.
And that's the thing.
You have to mean it.
One of my biggest pet peeves,and it's a little tongue in
cheek, but you guys will get it,is when I see brands and they
find the one or two black peopleon the entire campus or at the
company and they're promotingthem.
And then you get there and it'slike, oh, you're a company of
10,000 people.
You found the two to five blackindividuals and you put them out
(31:49):
in front of me and Do I reallylook that uninformed?
Like I know better.
You know what I mean?
It's like, you know, it's noknock on the state, but it's
like maybe Idaho or Montana orsomething like that.
And you're in your commercial,you're putting all these diverse
individuals.
And I'm like, is there reallythat much diversity in the
state?
My thing is don't mislead anddon't lie.
You can be honest.
(32:10):
Imagine, you know, maybe this isa free commercial for Viking.
We know we have trended for babyboomers and Gen Xers for the
last 20 years, but Viking istrying to get young by offering
these type of cruises.
We still have work to do, butwe're willing to make the
commitment.
Something like that versus, toyour point, putting a
20-year-old on the front of thecruise line jumping off and
(32:32):
you're just like, oh, this is astunt.
The three of us know betterbecause we know the business.
Oh, this is a stunt.
There's no one 20 years old on aViking cruise unless their
grandparents brought them,right?
And then you get on there andit's nothing like the
commercial.
So I think that's anothermistake to me that brands make
where it's just you trying tomake yourself appear like
something that you're not, justbe honest about it.
(32:54):
We have a lot of work to do, butwe're trying to get there.
SPEAKER_02 (32:57):
Yeah.
I hope over time we can find ahappy medium, like which came
first, the younger generationsor the marketing to the younger
generations.
And maybe like over time thatgap is closed and maybe the
three of us will be the posterchildren for River Cruises.
SPEAKER_00 (33:14):
That's, that's funny.
20 years that we'll be on Vikingor another.
I hear you saying, but I, youknow, I just want to say Really
try and experience a rivercruise.
Unless you are definitely afraidof the water, it is worth the
experience.
There's so much more to do onand off the vessel than you
think there is.
It is worth it.
(33:34):
Try a little bit of everything.
Go to multiple countries andhave the intimacy of a small
crew that's attentive.
I think it's definitely worthit.
SPEAKER_01 (33:43):
Well, thank you so much, Noel.
Of course.
I appreciate you stopping by.
Tell our listeners where theycan find you and more of you.
SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
Absolutely.
So you can type in my name,N-O-E-L-B-U-R-G-E, and that's
subtle, subtle G, B-U-R-G-E-S-S.
You can find me on Forbes,Forbes.com.
You can find me on Instagram.
It's Mr.
Noel Burgess.
Also, I have a small but growingtravel show called On Our Way on
(34:10):
YouTube.
So just type in Noel Burgess OnOur Way, and you'll be able to
find me there.
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
We are supporters to the max and subscribers.
All of that is going to be inthe show notes so maybe you're
driving and you can't write thatdown but don't worry just check
out the description or the shownotes whatever you want to call
it and it will be there we lovetraveling with you we're so
lucky we met that way
SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
gotta do it again we gotta do it again we gotta
coordinate because you guys aregreat to be able to interact
with it was just too fun of atime
SPEAKER_02 (34:41):
same well thanks so much and until next episode we
wish you safe travels and talkto you then
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
thank you guys thank you
UNKNOWN (34:49):
Thank you.
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