December 5, 2024 • 32 mins
Discover how Healthy Flavors is helping to revolutionize school meals and combat health issues with Dan Spatz, co-owner of Healthy Flavors Farms, and Karen Brazil, program manager of the CHEF Program. Listen as Dan reveals their mission to pivot away from industrial food systems towards sustainable farming practices at their farms in Tennessee and Arkansas. By "planting with purpose, harvesting health," they are not only growing culinary herbs for local supermarkets but also advocating for a return to local food systems that once shaped our communities and inspiring a systemic shift towards healthier school meals nationwide.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
The whole farm to school movement is about getting
back to something better forour kids.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
All right, welcome to the Small Talk, the Communities
Unlimited podcast.
My name is Chris Baker and it'sthe podcast that is meant to
empower and inform ruralcommunities and let them know of
resources that may be availableto them, or ideas can also be a
resource as well.
Introducing our guest today,dan Spatz.
Dan is a co-owner of HealthyFlavors Farms and Karen Brazil
(00:32):
correct.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
All right, cool.
Karen is the program manager ofthe Chef Program and we're
going to get into that programin a minute.
But, dan, I want you to set thescene for us and tell us about
Healthy Flavors, what it is, howyou guys kind of came about and
what you guys are about,because I think it's a really
cool idea concept that you guyshave been doing for a minute.
So tell us about HealthyFlavors.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Sure.
Thanks, chris, and thanks forhaving us.
And Healthy Flavors is actuallythe name behind and around two
farms One farm in middleTennessee and another farm in
central Arkansas and they'revery different farms, but they
were both born out of a passionthat my wife and I have been
(01:19):
cultivating, because our careerswere really founded, chris, in
the industrial food system, andwhen I say the industrial food
system, I mean the system thatwe've come to know in America
that produces abundant and verycheap and very flavorful, very
(01:42):
tasty food, but it's notnecessarily the healthiest food
for our bodies.
We're both very, very thankfulto the skills and capabilities
and all of the experiences thatwe had that give us the ability
to do what we do today.
When we moved in 2011 toFranklin, tennessee, sometimes I
(02:06):
say we were kind of wannabefarmers, but we had all this
experience and then we hadresources available that allowed
us to obtain or.
The farm in Arkansas has beenin my family for more than 100
years, been in my family formore than 100 years, and they're
just resources that we want tobring to bear to help people
(02:27):
with their health and to bendthe food system back to
something that we had 100 yearsago Rural communities and
individual farms suppliedpredominantly all the food that
was eaten in America.
So we're working to get back tothat.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Why?
Why is that important?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Great question.
Working to get back to that why?
Why is that important?
Great question.
Well, first of all, chris, youprobably know there at
Communities Unlimited, thatthere are a lot of small towns
and communities in America thatare defined by that natural
resource called land.
And so in a lot of farmingcommunities, for a number of
(03:06):
years, it's either been you haveaccess to resources and you've
fallen in line with thatindustrial food system, meaning
you know it was bigger, it wasmore tractors, more equipment.
Right Today we've got farmers,individual people that are
farming thousands, even tens ofthousands of acres, you know, on
(03:29):
their own or with small groupsof people, and that food is
basically loaded onto 53-foottrailers, it's sent to an
elevator, the food goes intothis industrial machine I was
talking about.
The farmer gets a check at theend of the day if he's got a
(03:50):
good yield, or she has a goodyield and the markets are good,
then you know all is well.
But that system has been asystem of boom and bust.
It's been a system of you'reeither bigger or you're out, and
that's kind of led to adepletion of resources, a
depletion of opportunity inthese rural communities I'm
(04:11):
talking to.
That's the situation on one hand.
On the other hand, in the 1950sand 60s, obesity was about 5%.
5% of the American populationwas obese.
That's up to 20% now andgrowing.
In the 1960s, healthcare as wedefine it, right.
(04:35):
So you think about all yourvisits to the hospital,
pharmaceuticals, the money spentto support our health it was 5%
of the economy.
Today it's 18% of the economyand it's the fastest growing
sector in our economy.
And I think many peoplelistening to this would take a
(04:55):
look at themselves.
Or you know the communitiesthey live in, their families,
their friends, and whether it'sobesity or diabetes or heart
disease, many forms of cancerare related to the foods we're
eating, the you know theplethora of calories, you know
the abundance of calories in thefood system, but the real
(05:17):
deficit of nutrients.
And so when we are providingfoods that are grown in our
local communities, on our farms,we might be minimally
processing them, but we'redeveloping relationships with
those in our communities,selling that food to those in
our communities.
They're eating fresher, tastier, more wholesome from a
(05:40):
nutritional perspective foods,and that's good for the economy
and it's good for our health.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Is it fair to say that you're farming with intent?
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Oh, very much so, yeah, with real purpose.
We've recently, after doingthis for 13 years and just you
know like most farmers are noseto the grindstone right we took
a step back and kind of startedto think about who we are, why
we're doing this, and theheadline we came up with, chris,
(06:12):
was planting with purpose,harvesting health.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, that's a better way of saying what I just was
trying to say.
Planting with purpose I like it.
It took us a while to get there.
Planting with purpose I like it, it took us a while to get
there.
So, dan, a couple of questionslike what, what?
Let me ask what kind of stuffdo you grow, and then what do
you do with it?
Speaker 1 (06:34):
That might be a little bit unique in the, I
guess, in the ecosystem that youjust kind of presented, sure,
so at the, at the farm inTennessee, we are a culinary
herb farm and we are growing andpacking 12 varieties of
culinary herbs.
They range from basil to dill,thyme, mint, sage, oregano,
(06:57):
cilantro, parsley just prettymuch anything you would find on
the supermarket shelf sold as afresh herb in your local
supermarket.
In fact we supply localsupermarkets in the Tennessee,
kentucky, alabama area, and youknow.
Again, back to the purpose,back to the mission.
(07:19):
You know herbs are nature's wayof flavoring foods, right?
If we want to reduce salt, fatand sugar in the food supply,
there's no more natural andnutritious way to do that than
to use more herbs in yourcooking.
In Arkansas we sometimes I callit our farm to school farm
(07:40):
because we're working hard toget more locally grown foods
into the schools.
Because if you think about it,you know I'm 58 years old, right
?
I mean, my food habits and myfood culture have been formed by
all kinds of experiences thatI've been through and it's not
easy to change.
Ok, so our palates, what weappreciate, what we come back to
(08:04):
eat over and over again.
So it used to be an acquiredtaste because we would go to
grandma's house on Sundayafternoon and the foods we came
to love were the things sheprepared for us on Sunday
afternoon, right?
Well, our food system has movedfrom acquired taste to instant
gratification.
So all of those manufactured,highly processed, industrialized
(08:26):
, if you will, foods.
They are designed to hit ourtaste buds and send a shot of
energy to our brain that reallymakes us feel good.
And so if we want to bend thefood system, I think we need to
start young, with our kids.
And what we're doing here inConway in central Arkansas is we
(08:47):
are growing purple peas,butternut and other forms of
squash, so your yellow orangevegetable group.
And then we're working ongreens, so we're growing romaine
lettuce.
I'd love to be growing a lotmore spinach because that's you
know, it's like Popeye eat yourspinach right, full of full
impact of nutrients.
But you know we're doing thosethree groups of foods.
(09:09):
We did a little bit of okrathis year.
As much as anything, chris.
We're working to take thatlocally grown food and get it
into a form that the kitchensand the schools can use, because
that's not so easy.
But that's our purpose andthat's our mission here in
Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So obviously the Farm to School program is a big part
of what you guys do and that'sa great time to bring in Karen,
because you guys tell us aboutthis chef program that you've
got going on.
What is it and how does it work?
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, thanks so much for introducing that, chris.
We've titled our grant.
It's a USDA Farm to Schoolgrant and our steering committee
team members have chosen thename.
We have a diverse group ofsteering committee members and
it's called the Chef Challengeand basically it's children's
(10:01):
health through education andfood.
It's children's health througheducation and food.
And the challenge comes inwhere we see so many challenges
of getting healthy food tochildren in schools the child
nutrition directors, guidelinesand you know, the heat and serve
kind of thing that they're usedto doing but would like to do
(10:21):
more scratch cooking.
And the logistics of this grantinvolve getting scratch cooking
into the schools.
It's bringing cafeterias,communities and children
together and educating children,child nutrition directors and
communities about healthiereating.
And, like when Dan said, youknow, obesity used to be at the
(10:45):
5% level and we're at the 20%level.
The choices of food now are theprocessed food that children
are getting, even in the schools, the heat and serve type
options, and we're trying tochange that through this pilot
program and basically what we'retrying to do is lend ourselves
to 20 school districts.
(11:05):
We're going to select 20 schooldistricts within the state of
Tennessee and Arkansas.
This is a Mid-South grant, soit's over multiple states and
we're going to choose 10ambassadors to assist child
nutrition directors and have anelement of education in the
(11:30):
classroom where there will be acurriculum to teach children
about scratch cooking.
This is a model from theWellness in the Schools or WITS
program, which is co-founded andexecutive director Nancy Easton
, who's on our steeringcommittee team, has founded, and
we're trying to model afterwhat she's done.
They literally have over amillion children that have been
(11:52):
served by the WITS program inthe New York City area and
basically they're utilizing thisprogram inside of their schools
currently and we're trying tobring this to the Mid-South.
And so not only are we tryingto do that, we're trying to.
We have a chef that's on oursteering committee team and
(12:12):
we're trying to implement somerecipe developments, introduce
two recipes inside the schoolsthat are scratch cooked and also
collect data upon what thechildren like, what they don't
like, with a sophisticated platedata collection system.
So there's many elements ofthis over the next two years in
(12:35):
this pilot program that we hopeto also bring sustainability
beyond the program.
This is just an introduction towhat can be done and, like I
said, using the WITS model andwellness in the schools.
We're just really hoping todevelop this on a broader scale.
Our chef, who is at Brightwaterin Northwest Arkansas, steve
(12:55):
Jenkins, will be developing acurriculum and a plan for the
chef ambassadors to implementthis in our 10 schools in
Arkansas and 10 in Tennessee.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Now, do you already have those 10 schools?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
We're in the process of selecting those.
There's a selection process andthere's a criteria, and so
we're developing that list toselect those schools within the
next few months.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Why is this necessary , Karen?
Like to me, if I'm just anormal person, I assume that the
food my kid is eating at schoolis healthy, because they tell
me so.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
But why is this necessary?
Oh, it's a really good questionand one that needs to be
(14:19):
explored.
Just because you know, we havebeen reading a book called the
Labor of Lunch and basicallyit's, and things like that.
So one of the reasons we'reimplementing it, or trying to
bring this about, is because ofthe degradation of what maybe
has been served in the schoolsand then bringing about a better
choice and healthier optionsfor kids.
Like Dan said, as you get older, you're sort of ingrained in
(14:45):
your food choices and thingslike that when you start at a
lower level.
One of the reasons we want tostart this is because kids learn
and develop at an early agetheir food choices, and when we
can start at a lower level, wecan actually, you know, start
educating kids to make thosechoices that will last a
lifetime.
Dan can elaborate a little bitmore on that.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I thought I'd build a little bit on what Karen was
saying there.
You know, the National SchoolLunch Program was implemented at
the federal level in 1946.
And it was implemented becausewe had just come out of a
wartime situation and themilitary had had real difficulty
(15:27):
recruiting because of thehealth situation amongst young
men at the time.
And I just find that so ironicbecause, you know, as we've been
saying here, a lot of foodpractices have evolved on an
immense level, right on anintense level, since that point
(15:48):
in time, and just some of thesenumbers that I'm referring to.
You know, health is one ofthose things, chris, that
evolves slowly over time and wedon't actually have many
opportunities.
It's generational, right, and soyou can very simply look at
pictures of groups of peoplefrom the 1920s, 30s, 40s and you
(16:12):
will start to see some massivedifferences if you compare it
with people of today.
And so, yeah, you're right.
I mean, people have come toassume that they're getting good
food and they are getting goodfood.
I think the question is, bywhat standard?
What standard do we have forour kids?
(16:33):
Because if the health outcomeswe're getting today are
acceptable to people, then OK.
But if you want to do somethingdifferent.
If you want to do somethingbetter for our kids, then the
whole farm to school movement,which has a major federal
component at USDA, is aboutgetting back to something better
(16:53):
for our kids that local foodwhich has more nutrients in it,
minimally processed, all ofthose things.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I've seen
just in my life is and as I'vegotten older and learned more
about food is that we don'treally accept seasonality in our
food.
And we should right, because ifI'm getting something shipped
in the middle of the winter thatI shouldn't be getting in the
middle of the winter, it allkind of it's a circle of life
(17:24):
thing, like I should be eatingseasonally.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (17:28):
It really does.
And that's another been anotherdynamic which has enabled, if
you will, the food system we'vegot.
Two-thirds to three-quarters ofthe produce in America is grown
in California and then betweenCalifornia and Florida.
It's just the overwhelmingmajority.
(17:51):
If you think about that, whenthe lettuce is harvested and
then transported that far away,there are documented scientific
research that the leafy greensare losing 50% of their nutrient
value every single day.
That's measurable.
And so you think about thelength of time.
You know they harvest it and inbest of circumstances they're
(18:14):
packing it and shipping itwithin 24, 48 hours.
But that lettuce might be atleast a week old by the time
that it gets to a school inArkansas or in Tennessee, at
best right, maybe even 10 daysto two weeks.
And depending on how it'spacked, if it's been
refrigerated, well, it's stillgoing to look okay.
But here's the differenceSomething fresh, local, from
(18:37):
your community is going to taste.
It's going to have a differenttaste, just radically different
taste, more flavorful.
It's going to have all thatextra nutrition in it and so
therefore it becomes moresatisfying.
So you know no wonder that wejust kind of douse our food
today with salad dressings, withsalt pepper, you know butter,
(18:58):
putting all those things on itAgain, all that stuff tastes
good, but if you get that localfood, it's going to taste better
with less of those things on it.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
So one of the things also that I think we kind of
discount is the disconnectionfrom our schools, from our kids
and their eating habits, Likethe majority, and especially in
rural communities.
You know that, you guys knowthat that's where we work
especially is in ruralcommunities the kitchen in the
school has kind of disappeared,Like it's really not much of a
(19:30):
thing anymore.
There may be some microwaves orsome hot water to put that bag
in to warm something up, butthere's really not a true
kitchen where things are made.
How are you finding gettinghealthy, fresh foods regionally,
locally sourced into schools?
Is that a challenge, not havingthe kitchen itself?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
I will say in my experience in my short
experience of being in theschools recently the child
nutrition directors that I'vebeen working with have been
trying to increase their scratchcooking and therefore increase
the types of equipment that theyhave inside the kitchens, and
(20:13):
so I understand that a lot ofheat and serve items are just a
microwavable thing.
I will say that the childnutrition directors that are
kind of forging this farm toschool movement with us are
actually advocating for betterequipment inside the schools and
I've seen that firsthand inbeing in some elementary, high
(20:34):
school and junior high schoolsrecently and that that they've
purchased new equipment.
They're gearing their cookingaround scratch cooking and
therefore implementing betterpractices.
So while I'm relatively new tounderstanding some of this, I'm
seeing an increase in thatviability of better equipment,
(21:00):
better food and better processesof serving to children.
So I think when we say farm toschool movement, it's everybody.
It's everybody in the community, it's the farmers we're
procuring the local produce from, it's the child nutrition
directors who are activelytaking a role in saying we want
better for our students.
I know the child nutritiondirectors that I've met with are
(21:22):
sort of maternal in nature and,you know, while they have
limitations and protocols insidetheir kitchens.
They're wanting the very bestfor their children inside the
schools, and so I think you knowall of us can lift up this farm
(21:53):
to school movement in scratchcooking in ways that it's a
community.
It's a community and bringingpeople together and educating on
better practices.
Educating on better practices,and while they may have, you
know, some not so state of theart, I know that Lisa
Sieber-Gardland, who's on oursteering committee team, she
just showed me some brand newequipment.
She has the junior high, hasall new equipment that she was
very proud of.
So I think that's changing.
I think it's they're advocatingfor better practices.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, you know, the child nutrition director
position is such a vitalposition in the, in the whole
circle of everything that isfarm to school, because it
really does take the farmer, ittakes the federal government, it
takes the people at thecommunity themselves to be
interested in it.
Because overcoming that, thatevolution that you were talking
(22:40):
about, dan, in food is, it's ahurdle and there's unique
challenges in each, eachcommunity school that need to be
overcome in unique ways.
What let me go back to Dan herefor a second Dan what would be
your ultimate outcome?
You know, five, ten years downthe road, with Healthy Flavors
(23:02):
and the Farm to School movement,what would you like to see?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So I think, with any kind of transformational change,
especially at a system levelthat you just touched on there,
chris, with so many diverseplayers involved.
Karen's right, we're workingwith some very motivated child
nutrition directors, but, again,a lot of work needs to be done
(23:31):
to raise awareness.
So I think the next two, three,five years, we need to continue
doing podcasts like this,getting the word out about why.
You know, the big question iswhy is this important pardon the
(23:59):
pun planting the seeds rightnow, so that 10 years from now
and you asked specifically abouthealthy flavors what we want to
do, given the blessing of theresources that we've had, is to
crack that door open, not justfor us but for other farmers in
communities right, you know, incommunities.
Right, you think about it.
There are in America, there are8.6 billion billion meals served
(24:24):
every year in the NationalSchool Lunch Program.
17 billion dollars, right.
So it took us 150 years to getto this food system.
I hope it doesn't take us 150years to get, to get back.
But in 10 years you can do a lot, and I would just love to see
us crack open the door with thekind of highly aware and
(24:48):
motivated districts that Karentalked about, and then use those
success models to keepspreading the word, keep
building and just bring moreschools in, bring more farmers
in.
Because Simon Sinek talks aboutthat tipping point, right, I
don't think anyone could lookinto a crystal ball and say,
(25:09):
well, what's the tipping pointat which this kind of takes on?
With an inertia and a momentumof its own, with an inertia and
a momentum of its own.
But I know that if we keepapplying resources, if we keep
finding those success storiesand publicizing the success
stories and making heroes out ofthe child nutrition directors
that are doing the hard work andrisky work of making change,
(25:32):
that this will continue to grow.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, it takes a lot of risk-taking in that position
because you know there's thingslike budgetary constraints and
all of that that comes into playin that type of position that
you have to be a motivated risktaker to make some change,
sometimes right, and a programlike go ahead, not to mention
just feedback from the community.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So I was working with a child nutrition director that
was trying to put morevegetables into her school and
they were getting blowback fromparents, you know.
I mean so the educationalaspect of this, and that's
another very, very importantpart.
I talked about raisingawareness.
I think this is educational innature.
You know about raisingawareness, getting people to
(26:19):
understand that why.
But yeah, it is risky for thechild nutrition directors.
You know there's capitalinvolved to do more scratch
cooking there's what the kidswant to eat versus what they're,
you know, served up.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Sometimes there's a gap there, right, and so the
educational part of this isreally really important times
that there's a gap there, right,and so the educational part of
this is really, really important, which is why a program like
Chef, that Karen's the managerof, is so vital.
What would be your outcome,karen, of this program you're
running?
What would you like to seehappen at the end of the day?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Well, like Dan said, I think education is the key
here, that it's going to be themost vital thing that we do with
the child nutrition directors,even with our steering committee
team members, we're constantlylearning progressive ways to
implement this.
But I think that the outcomethat I would love to see is the
sustainability part, that thisgoes on beyond what we're doing
(27:17):
here, that this spreads to otherschools, that this, you know,
could even spread across thenation, in that the education
component is actively teachingthe child nutrition directors,
the staff and the childrenhealthier ways of eating,
learning about the local foodsystems, learning about all the
(27:40):
elements that your body can healitself and basically the food
that we put in our body is adirect outcome of children's
health.
And so what I would say is thateducation, that sustainability
and just bringing this to awhole other level besides what
we're doing here is the outcomethat I would like to see, and I
(28:03):
think it is very possible, inthat, once we sort of ignite the
fire and bring people togetherDan is excellent at bringing
communities and people andresources together I think that
it will just spread to a desirefor people to want this, as
(28:26):
opposed to maybe thinking thatit's an extra step, or it's you
know too much, or the logisticsof getting things from the farm
are insurmountable.
So I really do believe that wehave a gift of bringing this to
our communities and bringingawareness to the whole system of
(28:51):
food and health.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
It's not what you can't do.
It's what you can do right.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Start thinking about the can-do type stuff Right
right, Love it.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Love it.
Okay, one of the other parts ofthis.
I mean, we're all.
I'm from a differentorganization than you guys are.
We came together and worked ona couple of projects.
It's really all aboutcollaboration.
So how do people get a hold ofyou guys?
Are you open to questions?
That people say, hey, I heardthis, don't know anything about
it, want to do something.
(29:21):
What should I do?
How does that work?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Yeah, as a program manager, you can reach me
through email.
Healthy Flavors backslash chefis another element online that
we have put out there.
We're developing that website,so I would just say, karen
Brazil, hf program manager atgmailcom is my email address.
(29:48):
I would love to hear fromanyone who's interested in
supporting us or bringing ustogether to learn more about our
program, and I just feel likethat's probably the best way to
get ahold of us, and it waswonderful to partner with
(30:09):
Communities Unlimited Chris andthere were other organizations
involved there and there areeven more organizations Karen's
talked about.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
So we're farms, we're implementing programs, but
there's other resourcesavailable and if we can't help
which we always side towardsdoing we always lean into, you
know, that extra energy tofigure out what you can do.
Like you say, if we can't, forwhatever reason, then we
(30:50):
certainly can refer and directand help find resources and
oftentimes, if it is a need tobring resourcesZ at
healthyflavorsnet.
And I'm absolutely willing tohear from everybody and, like I
say, just keep forming newrelationships and building the
farm school movement.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
That's how we find that tipping point by getting
those collaborations togetherright, absolutely, yeah.
Well, you guys, thank you somuch for your time today and
sharing the story with us.
I was really inspired, dan,when we first started working
with Healthy Flavors, and Ilearned about your farms from
Brenda on our healthy foodsdepartment, and just to see what
(31:30):
you guys are doing is really,really inspirational.
So I hope people find that sameinspiration that I did and
start something somewheresomehow.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Absolutely.
It's that spark of typicallycuriosity in the beginning.
And when curiosity is matchedwith a little bit of knowledge,
education, and then motivation,that's when things can really
start to turn around.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
And then motivation, that's when things can really
start to turn around.
Karen and Dan, thank you foryour time again, and this has
been another episode of SmallTalk, the Communities Unlimited
podcast.
We'll see you in a couple ofweeks.
The whole farm to school movement is about getting
back to something better forour kids.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
All right, welcome to the Small Talk, the Communities
Unlimited podcast.
My name is Chris Baker and it'sthe podcast that is meant to
empower and inform ruralcommunities and let them know of
resources that may be availableto them, or ideas can also be a
resource as well.
Introducing our guest today,dan Spatz.
Dan is a co-owner of HealthyFlavors Farms and Karen Brazil
(00:32):
correct.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
All right, cool.
Karen is the program manager ofthe Chef Program and we're
going to get into that programin a minute.
But, dan, I want you to set thescene for us and tell us about
Healthy Flavors, what it is, howyou guys kind of came about and
what you guys are about,because I think it's a really
cool idea concept that you guyshave been doing for a minute.
So tell us about HealthyFlavors.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Sure.
Thanks, chris, and thanks forhaving us.
And Healthy Flavors is actuallythe name behind and around two
farms One farm in middleTennessee and another farm in
central Arkansas and they'revery different farms, but they
were both born out of a passionthat my wife and I have been
(01:19):
cultivating, because our careerswere really founded, chris, in
the industrial food system, andwhen I say the industrial food
system, I mean the system thatwe've come to know in America
that produces abundant and verycheap and very flavorful, very
(01:42):
tasty food, but it's notnecessarily the healthiest food
for our bodies.
We're both very, very thankfulto the skills and capabilities
and all of the experiences thatwe had that give us the ability
to do what we do today.
When we moved in 2011 toFranklin, tennessee, sometimes I
(02:06):
say we were kind of wannabefarmers, but we had all this
experience and then we hadresources available that allowed
us to obtain or.
The farm in Arkansas has beenin my family for more than 100
years, been in my family formore than 100 years, and they're
just resources that we want tobring to bear to help people
(02:27):
with their health and to bendthe food system back to
something that we had 100 yearsago Rural communities and
individual farms suppliedpredominantly all the food that
was eaten in America.
So we're working to get back tothat.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Why?
Why is that important?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Great question.
Working to get back to that why?
Why is that important?
Great question.
Well, first of all, chris, youprobably know there at
Communities Unlimited, thatthere are a lot of small towns
and communities in America thatare defined by that natural
resource called land.
And so in a lot of farmingcommunities, for a number of
(03:06):
years, it's either been you haveaccess to resources and you've
fallen in line with thatindustrial food system, meaning
you know it was bigger, it wasmore tractors, more equipment.
Right Today we've got farmers,individual people that are
farming thousands, even tens ofthousands of acres, you know, on
(03:29):
their own or with small groupsof people, and that food is
basically loaded onto 53-foottrailers, it's sent to an
elevator, the food goes intothis industrial machine I was
talking about.
The farmer gets a check at theend of the day if he's got a
(03:50):
good yield, or she has a goodyield and the markets are good,
then you know all is well.
But that system has been asystem of boom and bust.
It's been a system of you'reeither bigger or you're out, and
that's kind of led to adepletion of resources, a
depletion of opportunity inthese rural communities I'm
(04:11):
talking to.
That's the situation on one hand.
On the other hand, in the 1950sand 60s, obesity was about 5%.
5% of the American populationwas obese.
That's up to 20% now andgrowing.
In the 1960s, healthcare as wedefine it, right.
(04:35):
So you think about all yourvisits to the hospital,
pharmaceuticals, the money spentto support our health it was 5%
of the economy.
Today it's 18% of the economyand it's the fastest growing
sector in our economy.
And I think many peoplelistening to this would take a
(04:55):
look at themselves.
Or you know the communitiesthey live in, their families,
their friends, and whether it'sobesity or diabetes or heart
disease, many forms of cancerare related to the foods we're
eating, the you know theplethora of calories, you know
the abundance of calories in thefood system, but the real
(05:17):
deficit of nutrients.
And so when we are providingfoods that are grown in our
local communities, on our farms,we might be minimally
processing them, but we'redeveloping relationships with
those in our communities,selling that food to those in
our communities.
They're eating fresher, tastier, more wholesome from a
(05:40):
nutritional perspective foods,and that's good for the economy
and it's good for our health.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Is it fair to say that you're farming with intent?
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Oh, very much so, yeah, with real purpose.
We've recently, after doingthis for 13 years and just you
know like most farmers are noseto the grindstone right we took
a step back and kind of startedto think about who we are, why
we're doing this, and theheadline we came up with, chris,
(06:12):
was planting with purpose,harvesting health.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, that's a better way of saying what I just was
trying to say.
Planting with purpose I like it.
It took us a while to get there.
Planting with purpose I like it, it took us a while to get
there.
So, dan, a couple of questionslike what, what?
Let me ask what kind of stuffdo you grow, and then what do
you do with it?
Speaker 1 (06:34):
That might be a little bit unique in the, I
guess, in the ecosystem that youjust kind of presented, sure,
so at the, at the farm inTennessee, we are a culinary
herb farm and we are growing andpacking 12 varieties of
culinary herbs.
They range from basil to dill,thyme, mint, sage, oregano,
(06:57):
cilantro, parsley just prettymuch anything you would find on
the supermarket shelf sold as afresh herb in your local
supermarket.
In fact we supply localsupermarkets in the Tennessee,
kentucky, alabama area, and youknow.
Again, back to the purpose,back to the mission.
(07:19):
You know herbs are nature's wayof flavoring foods, right?
If we want to reduce salt, fatand sugar in the food supply,
there's no more natural andnutritious way to do that than
to use more herbs in yourcooking.
In Arkansas we sometimes I callit our farm to school farm
(07:40):
because we're working hard toget more locally grown foods
into the schools.
Because if you think about it,you know I'm 58 years old, right
?
I mean, my food habits and myfood culture have been formed by
all kinds of experiences thatI've been through and it's not
easy to change.
Ok, so our palates, what weappreciate, what we come back to
(08:04):
eat over and over again.
So it used to be an acquiredtaste because we would go to
grandma's house on Sundayafternoon and the foods we came
to love were the things sheprepared for us on Sunday
afternoon, right?
Well, our food system has movedfrom acquired taste to instant
gratification.
So all of those manufactured,highly processed, industrialized
(08:26):
, if you will, foods.
They are designed to hit ourtaste buds and send a shot of
energy to our brain that reallymakes us feel good.
And so if we want to bend thefood system, I think we need to
start young, with our kids.
And what we're doing here inConway in central Arkansas is we
(08:47):
are growing purple peas,butternut and other forms of
squash, so your yellow orangevegetable group.
And then we're working ongreens, so we're growing romaine
lettuce.
I'd love to be growing a lotmore spinach because that's you
know, it's like Popeye eat yourspinach right, full of full
impact of nutrients.
But you know we're doing thosethree groups of foods.
(09:09):
We did a little bit of okrathis year.
As much as anything, chris.
We're working to take thatlocally grown food and get it
into a form that the kitchensand the schools can use, because
that's not so easy.
But that's our purpose andthat's our mission here in
Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So obviously the Farm to School program is a big part
of what you guys do and that'sa great time to bring in Karen,
because you guys tell us aboutthis chef program that you've
got going on.
What is it and how does it work?
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, thanks so much for introducing that, chris.
We've titled our grant.
It's a USDA Farm to Schoolgrant and our steering committee
team members have chosen thename.
We have a diverse group ofsteering committee members and
it's called the Chef Challengeand basically it's children's
(10:01):
health through education andfood.
It's children's health througheducation and food.
And the challenge comes inwhere we see so many challenges
of getting healthy food tochildren in schools the child
nutrition directors, guidelinesand you know, the heat and serve
kind of thing that they're usedto doing but would like to do
(10:21):
more scratch cooking.
And the logistics of this grantinvolve getting scratch cooking
into the schools.
It's bringing cafeterias,communities and children
together and educating children,child nutrition directors and
communities about healthiereating.
And, like when Dan said, youknow, obesity used to be at the
(10:45):
5% level and we're at the 20%level.
The choices of food now are theprocessed food that children
are getting, even in the schools, the heat and serve type
options, and we're trying tochange that through this pilot
program and basically what we'retrying to do is lend ourselves
to 20 school districts.
(11:05):
We're going to select 20 schooldistricts within the state of
Tennessee and Arkansas.
This is a Mid-South grant, soit's over multiple states and
we're going to choose 10ambassadors to assist child
nutrition directors and have anelement of education in the
(11:30):
classroom where there will be acurriculum to teach children
about scratch cooking.
This is a model from theWellness in the Schools or WITS
program, which is co-founded andexecutive director Nancy Easton
, who's on our steeringcommittee team, has founded, and
we're trying to model afterwhat she's done.
They literally have over amillion children that have been
(11:52):
served by the WITS program inthe New York City area and
basically they're utilizing thisprogram inside of their schools
currently and we're trying tobring this to the Mid-South.
And so not only are we tryingto do that, we're trying to.
We have a chef that's on oursteering committee team and
(12:12):
we're trying to implement somerecipe developments, introduce
two recipes inside the schoolsthat are scratch cooked and also
collect data upon what thechildren like, what they don't
like, with a sophisticated platedata collection system.
So there's many elements ofthis over the next two years in
(12:35):
this pilot program that we hopeto also bring sustainability
beyond the program.
This is just an introduction towhat can be done and, like I
said, using the WITS model andwellness in the schools.
We're just really hoping todevelop this on a broader scale.
Our chef, who is at Brightwaterin Northwest Arkansas, steve
(12:55):
Jenkins, will be developing acurriculum and a plan for the
chef ambassadors to implementthis in our 10 schools in
Arkansas and 10 in Tennessee.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Now, do you already have those 10 schools?
Speaker 3 (13:11):
We're in the process of selecting those.
There's a selection process andthere's a criteria, and so
we're developing that list toselect those schools within the
next few months.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Why is this necessary , Karen?
Like to me, if I'm just anormal person, I assume that the
food my kid is eating at schoolis healthy, because they tell
me so.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
But why is this necessary?
Oh, it's a really good questionand one that needs to be
(14:19):
explored.
Just because you know, we havebeen reading a book called the
Labor of Lunch and basicallyit's, and things like that.
So one of the reasons we'reimplementing it, or trying to
bring this about, is because ofthe degradation of what maybe
has been served in the schoolsand then bringing about a better
choice and healthier optionsfor kids.
Like Dan said, as you get older, you're sort of ingrained in
(14:45):
your food choices and thingslike that when you start at a
lower level.
One of the reasons we want tostart this is because kids learn
and develop at an early agetheir food choices, and when we
can start at a lower level, wecan actually, you know, start
educating kids to make thosechoices that will last a
lifetime.
Dan can elaborate a little bitmore on that.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I thought I'd build a little bit on what Karen was
saying there.
You know, the National SchoolLunch Program was implemented at
the federal level in 1946.
And it was implemented becausewe had just come out of a
wartime situation and themilitary had had real difficulty
(15:27):
recruiting because of thehealth situation amongst young
men at the time.
And I just find that so ironicbecause, you know, as we've been
saying here, a lot of foodpractices have evolved on an
immense level, right on anintense level, since that point
(15:48):
in time, and just some of thesenumbers that I'm referring to.
You know, health is one ofthose things, chris, that
evolves slowly over time and wedon't actually have many
opportunities.
It's generational, right, and soyou can very simply look at
pictures of groups of peoplefrom the 1920s, 30s, 40s and you
(16:12):
will start to see some massivedifferences if you compare it
with people of today.
And so, yeah, you're right.
I mean, people have come toassume that they're getting good
food and they are getting goodfood.
I think the question is, bywhat standard?
What standard do we have forour kids?
(16:33):
Because if the health outcomeswe're getting today are
acceptable to people, then OK.
But if you want to do somethingdifferent.
If you want to do somethingbetter for our kids, then the
whole farm to school movement,which has a major federal
component at USDA, is aboutgetting back to something better
(16:53):
for our kids that local foodwhich has more nutrients in it,
minimally processed, all ofthose things.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I've seen
just in my life is and as I'vegotten older and learned more
about food is that we don'treally accept seasonality in our
food.
And we should right, because ifI'm getting something shipped
in the middle of the winter thatI shouldn't be getting in the
middle of the winter, it allkind of it's a circle of life
(17:24):
thing, like I should be eatingseasonally.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (17:28):
It really does.
And that's another been anotherdynamic which has enabled, if
you will, the food system we'vegot.
Two-thirds to three-quarters ofthe produce in America is grown
in California and then betweenCalifornia and Florida.
It's just the overwhelmingmajority.
(17:51):
If you think about that, whenthe lettuce is harvested and
then transported that far away,there are documented scientific
research that the leafy greensare losing 50% of their nutrient
value every single day.
That's measurable.
And so you think about thelength of time.
You know they harvest it and inbest of circumstances they're
(18:14):
packing it and shipping itwithin 24, 48 hours.
But that lettuce might be atleast a week old by the time
that it gets to a school inArkansas or in Tennessee, at
best right, maybe even 10 daysto two weeks.
And depending on how it'spacked, if it's been
refrigerated, well, it's stillgoing to look okay.
But here's the differenceSomething fresh, local, from
(18:37):
your community is going to taste.
It's going to have a differenttaste, just radically different
taste, more flavorful.
It's going to have all thatextra nutrition in it and so
therefore it becomes moresatisfying.
So you know no wonder that wejust kind of douse our food
today with salad dressings, withsalt pepper, you know butter,
(18:58):
putting all those things on itAgain, all that stuff tastes
good, but if you get that localfood, it's going to taste better
with less of those things on it.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
So one of the things also that I think we kind of
discount is the disconnectionfrom our schools, from our kids
and their eating habits, Likethe majority, and especially in
rural communities.
You know that, you guys knowthat that's where we work
especially is in ruralcommunities the kitchen in the
school has kind of disappeared,Like it's really not much of a
(19:30):
thing anymore.
There may be some microwaves orsome hot water to put that bag
in to warm something up, butthere's really not a true
kitchen where things are made.
How are you finding gettinghealthy, fresh foods regionally,
locally sourced into schools?
Is that a challenge, not havingthe kitchen itself?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
I will say in my experience in my short
experience of being in theschools recently the child
nutrition directors that I'vebeen working with have been
trying to increase their scratchcooking and therefore increase
the types of equipment that theyhave inside the kitchens, and
(20:13):
so I understand that a lot ofheat and serve items are just a
microwavable thing.
I will say that the childnutrition directors that are
kind of forging this farm toschool movement with us are
actually advocating for betterequipment inside the schools and
I've seen that firsthand inbeing in some elementary, high
(20:34):
school and junior high schoolsrecently and that that they've
purchased new equipment.
They're gearing their cookingaround scratch cooking and
therefore implementing betterpractices.
So while I'm relatively new tounderstanding some of this, I'm
seeing an increase in thatviability of better equipment,
(21:00):
better food and better processesof serving to children.
So I think when we say farm toschool movement, it's everybody.
It's everybody in the community, it's the farmers we're
procuring the local produce from, it's the child nutrition
directors who are activelytaking a role in saying we want
better for our students.
I know the child nutritiondirectors that I've met with are
(21:22):
sort of maternal in nature and,you know, while they have
limitations and protocols insidetheir kitchens.
They're wanting the very bestfor their children inside the
schools, and so I think you knowall of us can lift up this farm
(21:53):
to school movement in scratchcooking in ways that it's a
community.
It's a community and bringingpeople together and educating on
better practices.
Educating on better practices,and while they may have, you
know, some not so state of theart, I know that Lisa
Sieber-Gardland, who's on oursteering committee team, she
just showed me some brand newequipment.
She has the junior high, hasall new equipment that she was
very proud of.
So I think that's changing.
I think it's they're advocatingfor better practices.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, you know, the child nutrition director
position is such a vitalposition in the, in the whole
circle of everything that isfarm to school, because it
really does take the farmer, ittakes the federal government, it
takes the people at thecommunity themselves to be
interested in it.
Because overcoming that, thatevolution that you were talking
(22:40):
about, dan, in food is, it's ahurdle and there's unique
challenges in each, eachcommunity school that need to be
overcome in unique ways.
What let me go back to Dan herefor a second Dan what would be
your ultimate outcome?
You know, five, ten years downthe road, with Healthy Flavors
(23:02):
and the Farm to School movement,what would you like to see?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So I think, with any kind of transformational change,
especially at a system levelthat you just touched on there,
chris, with so many diverseplayers involved.
Karen's right, we're workingwith some very motivated child
nutrition directors, but, again,a lot of work needs to be done
(23:31):
to raise awareness.
So I think the next two, three,five years, we need to continue
doing podcasts like this,getting the word out about why.
You know, the big question iswhy is this important pardon the
(23:59):
pun planting the seeds rightnow, so that 10 years from now
and you asked specifically abouthealthy flavors what we want to
do, given the blessing of theresources that we've had, is to
crack that door open, not justfor us but for other farmers in
communities right, you know, incommunities.
Right, you think about it.
There are in America, there are8.6 billion billion meals served
(24:24):
every year in the NationalSchool Lunch Program.
17 billion dollars, right.
So it took us 150 years to getto this food system.
I hope it doesn't take us 150years to get, to get back.
But in 10 years you can do a lot, and I would just love to see
us crack open the door with thekind of highly aware and
(24:48):
motivated districts that Karentalked about, and then use those
success models to keepspreading the word, keep
building and just bring moreschools in, bring more farmers
in.
Because Simon Sinek talks aboutthat tipping point, right, I
don't think anyone could lookinto a crystal ball and say,
(25:09):
well, what's the tipping pointat which this kind of takes on?
With an inertia and a momentumof its own, with an inertia and
a momentum of its own.
But I know that if we keepapplying resources, if we keep
finding those success storiesand publicizing the success
stories and making heroes out ofthe child nutrition directors
that are doing the hard work andrisky work of making change,
(25:32):
that this will continue to grow.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, it takes a lot of risk-taking in that position
because you know there's thingslike budgetary constraints and
all of that that comes into playin that type of position that
you have to be a motivated risktaker to make some change,
sometimes right, and a programlike go ahead, not to mention
just feedback from the community.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So I was working with a child nutrition director that
was trying to put morevegetables into her school and
they were getting blowback fromparents, you know.
I mean so the educationalaspect of this, and that's
another very, very importantpart.
I talked about raisingawareness.
I think this is educational innature.
You know about raisingawareness, getting people to
(26:19):
understand that why.
But yeah, it is risky for thechild nutrition directors.
You know there's capitalinvolved to do more scratch
cooking there's what the kidswant to eat versus what they're,
you know, served up.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Sometimes there's a gap there, right, and so the
educational part of this isreally really important times
that there's a gap there, right,and so the educational part of
this is really, really important, which is why a program like
Chef, that Karen's the managerof, is so vital.
What would be your outcome,karen, of this program you're
running?
What would you like to seehappen at the end of the day?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Well, like Dan said, I think education is the key
here, that it's going to be themost vital thing that we do with
the child nutrition directors,even with our steering committee
team members, we're constantlylearning progressive ways to
implement this.
But I think that the outcomethat I would love to see is the
sustainability part, that thisgoes on beyond what we're doing
(27:17):
here, that this spreads to otherschools, that this, you know,
could even spread across thenation, in that the education
component is actively teachingthe child nutrition directors,
the staff and the childrenhealthier ways of eating,
learning about the local foodsystems, learning about all the
(27:40):
elements that your body can healitself and basically the food
that we put in our body is adirect outcome of children's
health.
And so what I would say is thateducation, that sustainability
and just bringing this to awhole other level besides what
we're doing here is the outcomethat I would like to see, and I
(28:03):
think it is very possible, inthat, once we sort of ignite the
fire and bring people togetherDan is excellent at bringing
communities and people andresources together I think that
it will just spread to a desirefor people to want this, as
(28:26):
opposed to maybe thinking thatit's an extra step, or it's you
know too much, or the logisticsof getting things from the farm
are insurmountable.
So I really do believe that wehave a gift of bringing this to
our communities and bringingawareness to the whole system of
(28:51):
food and health.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
It's not what you can't do.
It's what you can do right.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Start thinking about the can-do type stuff Right
right, Love it.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Love it.
Okay, one of the other parts ofthis.
I mean, we're all.
I'm from a differentorganization than you guys are.
We came together and worked ona couple of projects.
It's really all aboutcollaboration.
So how do people get a hold ofyou guys?
Are you open to questions?
That people say, hey, I heardthis, don't know anything about
it, want to do something.
(29:21):
What should I do?
How does that work?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Yeah, as a program manager, you can reach me
through email.
Healthy Flavors backslash chefis another element online that
we have put out there.
We're developing that website,so I would just say, karen
Brazil, hf program manager atgmailcom is my email address.
(29:48):
I would love to hear fromanyone who's interested in
supporting us or bringing ustogether to learn more about our
program, and I just feel likethat's probably the best way to
get ahold of us, and it waswonderful to partner with
(30:09):
Communities Unlimited Chris andthere were other organizations
involved there and there areeven more organizations Karen's
talked about.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
So we're farms, we're implementing programs, but
there's other resourcesavailable and if we can't help
which we always side towardsdoing we always lean into, you
know, that extra energy tofigure out what you can do.
Like you say, if we can't, forwhatever reason, then we
(30:50):
certainly can refer and directand help find resources and
oftentimes, if it is a need tobring resourcesZ at
healthyflavorsnet.
And I'm absolutely willing tohear from everybody and, like I
say, just keep forming newrelationships and building the
farm school movement.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
That's how we find that tipping point by getting
those collaborations togetherright, absolutely, yeah.
Well, you guys, thank you somuch for your time today and
sharing the story with us.
I was really inspired, dan,when we first started working
with Healthy Flavors, and Ilearned about your farms from
Brenda on our healthy foodsdepartment, and just to see what
(31:30):
you guys are doing is really,really inspirational.
So I hope people find that sameinspiration that I did and
start something somewheresomehow.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Absolutely.
It's that spark of typicallycuriosity in the beginning.
And when curiosity is matchedwith a little bit of knowledge,
education, and then motivation,that's when things can really
start to turn around.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
And then motivation, that's when things can really
start to turn around.
Karen and Dan, thank you foryour time again, and this has
been another episode of SmallTalk, the Communities Unlimited
podcast.
We'll see you in a couple ofweeks.
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