Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
I think the outdoor
economy and trails being a key
part of the foundation of anoutdoor economy, it is proving
itself to be a real winningstrategy in rural America.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I'm Chris Baker with
Communities Unlimited, and this
is Small Talk, the podcastcreated to empower and inform
rural communities.
A little about us.
Communities Unlimited is a501c3 nonprofit corporation
founded in 1976 that connectspeople to solutions through
human connections.
Communities Unlimited servesseven states in the southern
United States, an area with manyrural communities where we work
(00:39):
side by side with individuals,communities and organizations to
make opportunities accessibleto everyone everywhere.
On this episode of Small Talk,we're talking about outdoor
recreation and trail building aspart of the economic
development for ruralcommunities.
Let's get into it.
Why don't we start by?
Can you tell us who you?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
are Eric.
Yeah, I'm Eric Oberg.
I am Senior Director ofPrograms at Rails to Trails
Conservancy.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, I appreciate
you coming on the Small Talk
podcast today.
Eric, I wanted to talk to youbecause we ran into each other
at Mountain City, tennessee,rural community kind of on the
verge of you know, doing a lotof great outdoor recreation
stuff, and you guys were thereas part of that and I think that
rural communities can benefitfrom working with your
organization and kind oflearning from what you guys do
in the outdoor recreation spacein general.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, I agree, and it
was great running into your
whole team there.
I think there was so muchenergy between what you bring to
these communities and the kindof work that we do around the
country.
And, you know, a place likeMountain City is just such a
wonderful place to be, with somuch potential.
It's the kind of place that wereally excited about being
engaged in.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So how do you tell
people what the Rails to Trails
Conservancy is and in your words, what is it?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well, we are an
organization that works with and
for communities, to help themdevelop trails and trail systems
, develop trails and trailsystems, but really it's about
redeveloping space for peopleand creating a space for people
to help create healthiercommunities, healthier
lifestyles.
(02:11):
And you know, one of the thingsI love to say, and it's a quote
from one of our founders, whichsays I want to see trails
become America's mainstream, andwhat he meant by that was not
the busy commercial hub,necessarily, but the place where
community happens right, whereyou're out with your friends,
your family, your neighbors, andyou say hi to each other
because you're walking or you'reriding a bike, you're not in a
(02:33):
car, interactions that add up to, you know, life and healthy,
vibrant communities, and trailsreally facilitate that, and
that's the kind of thing that wewant to help communities build.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
And you know, that's
the trails part of it.
What's the rails part of it?
Tell me how that all works.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, well, that was
the impetus for how Rails to
Trails Conservancy got started.
But the rail corridor, right,the railroad industry is a huge
part of the history of thiscountry and the amount of rail
corridor that was built you knowfrom really the early to mid
1800s.
You know up until now there arejust tens of thousands of miles
(03:14):
of rail corridor around thecountry and that started to
subside with the rise of theauto industry and certainly the
trucking industry right wherethe goods really began to go
over interstate highways morethan rail, and we as a country
started to see a massivereduction in these corridors.
And the kernel of the beginningfor RTC was the recognition of
(03:38):
how valuable these corridorswere.
These corridors were connectors.
You know.
They were built purposefully toget from somewhere to somewhere
.
They weren't arbitrarily builtand they were built and
engineered in such a way that itwas the path of least
resistance.
Right, the engineers for therailroads are trying to find the
(03:58):
most efficient, best way to getfrom point A to point B and an
unbelievable amount ofbrainpower and money went into
creating this least resistancefrom point A to point B.
But that's a powerfulconnection between communities
and places and as they startedto disappear.
There was a recognition bypeople, including our founders,
(04:20):
that whoa, these are valuable.
If they're no longereconomically viable for an
industry, that doesn't mean theydon't still have value to us as
a society.
And so what really began?
Rails to Trails Conservancy.
It was not necessarily trails.
First, it was about thepreservation of corridor.
(04:41):
It was the preservation ofthese connections that these
corridors made and therecognition of the immense value
that those connections had tosociety as a whole.
And the best way to preservethem was to create trails so
that people were using them.
(05:01):
It protects the property in thecorridor, which was really the
first priority.
And then the brilliant idea ofoh well, let's open it so people
can use it.
And that's really what becamethe trail part.
Right, it was the preservationof rail.
So that's the rail part.
How do we preserve the railcorridor?
And the answer to that, how wastrail?
So the rail to trail is reallya conservation effort, if you
(05:25):
think about it and you look atthose corridors.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
It's logical, right.
It just makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
It does.
And one of my favorite thingsabout rail trails right and it
kind of harkens back to what Isaid about the amazing
engineering that went intocreating the path of least
resistance is that they arealmost universally less than 3%
grade, because you couldn't havesteep grades and have a
locomotive pulling a long train.
So they're relatively flat andthat allows universal access.
(05:56):
A rail trail is accessible toanybody, whether you are walking
, whether you are biking,whether you're roller skating,
whether you're skateboarding,whether you are walking, whether
you are biking, whether you'reroller skating, whether you're
skateboarding, whether you areone week old in a stroller being
pushed, whether you are 100years old needing some sort of
mobility device, whether you'rein a wheelchair.
It doesn't matter who you are.
(06:18):
There is a way to get out on arail trail.
They are built for everybody.
It is the most accessible wayfor people to get outside and to
me that's just.
You know, it's the greatestthing about them.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, 100%.
I've experienced that myself.
I've ridden my bicycle on theKaty Trail multiple times.
It's a blessing because thehills they may be long but
they're not steep right and youreally are.
You're close to things but youare removed enough away from
them because of the rail aspectand what it used to be, that you
really feel like you're kind ofgetting out there on a lot of
(06:54):
them, right.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, it's really fun
because that's the other part
of the accessibility piece.
I think right is more and moreof these trails, whether it's
one long trail like the Katy, orwhether it's projects that are
connecting to each other.
They're also a bit of achoose-your-own-adventure right,
like that low barrier.
You can go out for a half-milewalk, and it's wonderful, or you
can go for a 200-mile multi-daytour, and it's wonderful, and
(07:20):
neither one of them is the rightor wrong way.
The trail is a conduit toadventure, no matter what that
adventure is, and there is nowrong answer, and that's the
beautiful thing about thesetrails.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
I love that phrase,
conduit to adventure, and you
know the thing about that is islike when you look back at when
the interstate highways werebuilt.
That's what they were sold asright is a conduit to adventure
and you can get from A to Zreally quickly.
But what about all the lettersin between?
And that's where Communities,unlimited works is, in these
smaller rural communities thatused to have a rail that passed
(07:52):
through them, that no longerhave that driver of their
economy built into it.
And what a great way torepurpose something.
Man, can you talk to me aboutthe reality of some of these
rail trails or potential in thatspace?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, and you're so
right, especially with the rail
trail aspect.
When the railroad went through,communities fought really hard
back in the day to get on therail right, if there was a
railroad being constructed,there was an unbelievable amount
of political jockeying aboutwhere that railroad went right.
Come to my town.
Because that meant your townwas going to survive and thrive
(08:30):
economically.
And there are a slew of towns,especially the further west you
get.
The railroad didn't end upcoming through and they're ghost
towns.
Without the railroad there wasno viability.
So the railroad was thelifeblood, economically,
socially, everything.
The railroad was the identityof so many rural towns, and even
(08:51):
so many of our rural towns thatwere agricultural based, right,
and the railroad was.
It was the means of gettingtheir product to market, and so
without the railroad they wouldhave a tough time surviving.
So while many of these ruralcommunities would say, hey,
we're an agricultural community,which is totally true, the
railroad was a conduit to allowthat agricultural identity to
(09:13):
remain, you know, to thrivereally.
So the railroad was so centralto the identity of many of these
communities it you think aboutwhat that does, not just to the
very practical economicsituation in a community, but to
the psyche of a community andwhen you see these communities
(09:33):
that were reliant on therailroad industry and the jobs
that you know, all of those jobsthat help facilitate the
railroad industry.
When that went away, thecommunities were kind of lost
and you hear about and when yougo to these communities you see
it and you feel it viscerally.
You know young people.
You may have grown up there,but there was I don't want to
(09:55):
say there was no reason to stay.
Many of the young people wantedto stay but there was no option
to stay.
There just wasn't a future thatthey could see themselves in.
And while there are lots ofdifferent things and I will
never tell any community thatthe answer to all of your woes
is to build a trail, that isdisingenuous and not something
that we will ever tell acommunity examples around the
(10:26):
country is a trail can be a real, serious piece of the
foundation that you can rebuild.
You know, an identity that isviable and sustainable on, and
we're seeing it.
There are railroad and coalcommunities in Western
Pennsylvania and EasternMaryland that have re-identified
who they are.
They are now outdoor meccas,they are trail tourism
especially, but outdoor tourismis driving who they are and
(10:46):
there is a sense of pride inthose communities that has been
missing for decades and it isreal, it is palpable and I think
the impact in rural America isoutsized right.
Think when you talk about whata community that is rebuilding
itself looks like.
Opening a new restaurant,opening a new, let's say,
(11:11):
guiding or outfitting business,opening a new bike shop or a
rental you know, an outdoorrental gear rental place to
facilitate outdoor recreation.
Opening a business like that ina community of 500 or a
community of 5,000, that makes adifference where that bike shop
or that restaurant representsone of the first new businesses
(11:33):
to open in 30 years.
It's more than just a businessopening.
It shows that there's a pathwayforward and the outdoor economy
, and trails being a key part ofthe foundation of an outdoor
economy, is proving itself to bea real winning strategy in
rural America and that'ssomething that I hope more
(11:53):
communities start leaning into.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
We're talking to Eric
Oberg from the Rails to Trails
Conservancy.
Let's lean into that ourselves.
So how do they start leaninginto it?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Well, I think, first
and foremost, recognize where
you are, recognize what youropportunities are.
I don't want anyone listeningto this conversation to say, oh
well, I live in one of thosecommunities that there never was
a railroad that went through,so you're not talking about me.
We are the Rails to TrailsConservancy, but we work with
communities working on multi-usetrails, irregardless of whether
(12:25):
you have a rail corridor or not.
So, please, if you're hearingthis and you think, oh, we don't
have any rail corridor, so thathearing this, and you think, oh
, we don't have any railcorridor, so you know that
opportunity doesn't you knowthat's not something for us.
That's not true.
But I do think, recognizing youknow where are you and what are
your assets and what are theassets around you.
There is not a place in thiscountry, frankly, there's not a
(12:46):
place in this world I don't carehow big or how small that can't
do a self-assessment and findthat you have some really great
thing that is valuable to peoplethere, but that is also
interesting to people thataren't there, that people would
actually come and want to visitand want to see.
There's natural assets, there'shistorical and cultural assets.
I mean, there are assets of allkinds.
So do that asset inventory.
(13:06):
Who are we?
What do we have that we valueand we care about?
We, what do we have that wevalue and we care about?
And then this work has to bebased in residents first.
If you go into a strategy aroundcommunity and economic
development that is solelyfocused on bringing outside
visitors to your community andit doesn't start with a focus on
(13:28):
the residents in your community, first it is destined to fail.
Doesn't start with a focus onthe residents in your community
first it is destined to fail.
The community has to see.
The residents that live therenow have to see support, buy
into and I, of course,idealistically really like jump
on the bandwagon around thisidea because they need to see
(13:49):
the benefits benefiting themfirst.
If all of the benefits are forvisitors or all of the benefits
are for some outside developeror investor that's going to come
in and buy up your cool realestate on Main Street and
redevelop it and then get all ofthe rewards for that
redevelopment and it's all goingto the big city a hundred miles
(14:11):
away, that redevelopment, andit's all going to, you know, the
big city a hundred miles away.
If I'm a resident of thatcommunity, I'm asking what, what
, where, where am I in this?
This is my town, right?
So work with your community.
The benefits of this work needsto benefit the community first
and in order for that to happen,the community has to be a part
of the discussion and thestrategy moving forward.
So don't it doesn't mean thatvisitation's bad, visitation's
(14:33):
huge right.
If you're talking about atourism economy, an outdoor
recreation economy you will want, especially in rural America.
There's not enough of you tosustain yourselves just by
asking each other, but if it'sonly for visitors, it's not
ultimately gonna be successful.
So center yourself on thecommunity.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
You're speaking my
language with that type of
economic development right.
That's exactly how ourcommunity sustainability team
works here at CommunitiesUnlimited.
We go into a community andwe'll say what do you got and
how can we build on that?
And when you're talking in theoutdoor recreation space, trails
are something you can buildaround, build on, because a lot
(15:11):
of these communities we work inin rural America they might have
a really nice lake, they mighthave a hunting and fishing
economy that they've nevertapped into or, you know, they
might have a really cooldowntown space that people don't
have a reason to go to.
Right.
So you build the reasons andthe people come.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
That's right, and I
think it is.
It's that layered experience,right.
Whatever it is that you'researching for to help your
community.
A trail is not going to fix allof the problems, but it sure
can be a conduit to helpingfacilitate a lot of the
solutions.
Right, and the trail in and ofitself can be really cool.
The trails also can, andideally you should be looking
(15:52):
for how does the trailfacilitate other experiences?
Right?
Can you take the trail to thelake?
Or, when you're at the lake,swimming, can you?
You know, hey, we've beenswimming all morning.
I need to get out of the water.
Oh, cool, can we go take a walkaround the lake?
Or you brought the family tothe lake and you threw the bikes
in and, man, we swam allmorning and then we went for a
trail ride all afternoon.
There's very few outdooractivities that are not
(16:15):
facilitated in some way, shapeor form by a trail.
Some of them are so minute thatpeople would not even think of
it.
But let's say that you driveyour vehicle, car, truck,
whatever you drive your vehicleto a lake, to a river, to a
whatever, and you're going to gofishing.
I would say 95 to 99% of that,uh, of the times that you're
going to go fishing, youprobably jump on a trail, even
(16:36):
if it's just a trail between theparking lot and the lake Right.
So think about all of thoseexperiences and is there a way
to connect those experiencesthrough a trail?
Do you have the ability, if youhave some topography, create a
mountain bike park or a mountainbike trail, and is there a way
to connect your community tothat mountain bike trail by
trail?
And you have that cool littledowntown you're talking about
(16:58):
that.
People want to come andexperience.
But you know, after a few hoursof going in and out of every
shop, it's like, well, if youhad that trail, if you had that
mountain bike park, if you hadwhatever those reasons for
people to stay right To spend alittle more time.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So we've got somebody
listening to the podcast now
and they're all excited youexcited, eric and they're saying
we're the perfect spot for this.
What's like their first coupleof steps?
Real basic, like what shouldthey do?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
So you go to
rails2trailsorg, you can go into
the trail building toolboxYou'll see that up at the top
under what we do.
We have got every possibleangle around you know the
development of trails, how, why.
You know what are some of thepitfalls that you should watch
out for.
We've got a laundry list of youknow the benefits and research
(17:45):
and I mean you name it, it's inthere.
We also have everywhere contactus, right, if you really can't
find what you're looking for,you can hit that contact us and
reach out and just say here'swhat I'm getting at or here's
what I'm wondering, or here'swhat I can't find, and we have
staff that are dedicated toanswering those questions for
(18:06):
you.
And we do the other thing thatwe launched just over a year ago
.
It is a Facebook page, but it'scalled the Trail Nation
Collaborative, and the TrailNation Collaborative is a
nationwide group of people.
We see it, and the vision forthe Trail Nation Collaborative
is this peer-to-peer universewhere people from every part of
(18:30):
the landscape from rural,suburban, urban, east, west,
south no, I don't care where youare in this country there is
somebody that is already engagedin the collaborative, that is
doing this work in a place likeyours, and there are people that
are right at the beginning ofthe journey, that they have an
idea but they don't know how.
And there are people that havebeen doing this for 50 years and
have all of the scars and thelumps to prove it and a ton of
(18:52):
experience.
And the Trail NationCollaborative is a place where
you can insert yourself and youcan ask questions and you can
you can read everybody else'squestions but it is a way to tap
into kind of the hive mentalityof the trails world in a way
that you know really wasn'tcouldn't have been facilitated
10 years ago, in a way that youknow really wasn't couldn't have
been facilitated 10 years ago,because at the end of the day,
(19:13):
we're also, you know, we're 40years old and we've done this
for a long time and we have alot of resources, but we are not
dumb enough to think that weknow everything right.
There are so many people aroundthis country that have been
doing this work at such anamazing level and they've been
so successful and innovative.
The whole movement needs all ofus working together to help
(19:34):
others, and that's what theTrail Nation Collaborative is
about.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I love that you guys
have built a community, eric,
like that, because what wefirmly believe here at CU is
that the community knows bestwhat it needs, and when you get
that community talking andlike-minded people together,
that's where the best ideas comefrom and that's where the new
stuff comes from, and that'sreally that's a powerful tool,
right.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
It is, and that's the
beauty of humanity, right,
that's the beauty of my life iseverybody's had a different
experience and the more open youare to sharing yours and
listening to others, the betteryou're going to be at damn near
everything right.
And the same is true withtrails.
If you have a preconceivednotion of not just what a trail
(20:16):
is, but what is the purpose of atrail or how should people use
it, I think a lot of peoplethink about a trail and go.
Oh, people do A, b or C on atrail, and I'm telling you the
number of different creativeways that individuals and
communities have come up with touse their trails, and I share
the story.
But I'll share it quickly.
It happened in Cleveland, but atrail was built in Cleveland
(20:38):
about six years ago and itconnected an affordable housing
development, an apartmentbuilding, and it used to have
direct access to the lakeshore,to Lake Erie, and because of the
way we built cities from aboutthe 1940s to now, for decades,
that community has been cut offfrom the lake.
There was no direct access tothe lake.
You couldn't walk out of thatapartment building and walk to
(21:01):
Lake Erie.
You could see Lake Erie, butyou couldn't walk there.
Well, this trail facilitatedthe connection for the first
time in decades to be able toget from that building to Lake
Erie.
Now it's a big regional trail,it's not this little short trail
.
But within the first week ofthat trail opening, a good
friend and partner in Clevelandsent me a short video and he was
just out there because it wasthe new trail and he wanted to
(21:24):
see it and get on it and see howmany other people were using it
.
And he's going by this buildingand there were these three
young women and quite a few kidsand they were out on the trail
and he stopped and looked and hesaid he realized right away
they were having their Easteregg hunt on the trail.
And they said it's the firsttime in the first time they've
(21:45):
ever been able to have theEaster egg hunt not in the
hallways of the apartmentbuilding because they never had
a safe space for their kids togo outside, close to home, to
have an Easter egg huntno-transcript when you're
(22:29):
talking about building a senseof community right and a source
of pride and all that kind ofstuff.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I mean it loops right
back there.
We're almost out of time here,but I wanted to give you a
couple of minutes here.
No rush on this, but I wantedyou to talk about the Trail
Across America.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Tell us about that
big project and so the great
American rail trail.
Um, it is our latest andbiggest and most ambitious
project, but it actually comes,you know, from the beginning.
From the very start, uh, ourfounders expressed very openly,
uh, that they they really hopethere would be an opportunity to
connect a multi-use trail fromcoast to coast, and not long, I
(23:08):
think, just a couple of years.
Yeah, two years before Istarted, the organization really
invested heavily in a GISdepartment, right, and really
starting to develop a geodatabase.
So one of the tasks of the newGIS specialist and the data we
were collecting in thegeodatabase was to just do an
(23:29):
assessment nationally ofpotential routes for a
coast-to-coast trail, and so oneof the data points that would
be reported to the staff everyyear was you know, here's what
it's looking like.
It looks like there's acorridor up here that could
potentially someday be that, andit is X percent done.
You know, if you add up what wesee as open trail and there was
(23:52):
an organizational commitmentthat it was way too big a lift
for the organization to take aleadership role in helping
promote and develop acoast-to-coast trail.
Until there was a corridor thatwas identified, that was over
50% done.
(24:13):
And seven years ago, we're at astaff retreat and our GIS
specialist gets up and flashesus slide up.
So this corridor is 50.1%complete and those of us had
been around a while, looked ateach other and it was a mix of
excitement and, uh-oh, what dowe got ourselves to?
(24:36):
Yeah, I love blowing carefulwhat you wish for, because
someday it just might happen.
But we, you know, just becausewe identified that didn't mean
okay, tomorrow we're going tolet the world know that this is
doable.
We spent two years because,again, just like any kind of
trail development, it has to belocal.
It has to be supported by,championed by and owned by the
(24:58):
communities it goes through.
So we knew we saw thiswonderful opportunity.
We spent two full years goingto every state 12 different
states plus the District ofColumbia meeting with their
state agencies, meeting with,you know, with locals and trail
groups, saying here's what wehave, here's what we see.
We think this is really cool,but we need, you know, it needs
(25:18):
to be yours, we need you guys tothink it's really cool and you
want to be a part of it.
And so we'd went through thistwo-year vetting process to make
sure everybody was on boardbefore.
We launched the vision of theGreat American Rail Trail, which
happened five years ago and itis now.
You can go to our site, see it.
There's amazing videos.
There's a really greatinteractive map.
You can look and zoom in andsee what's open.
(25:40):
You know what trails are open,but the Great American Rail
Trail is 3,700 miles.
It will go from Washington DCto the Pacific Ocean on the
Olympic Peninsula in Washingtonstate crosses 12 states,
district of Columbia it is over55% done now.
We've seen huge progress.
It has been such an awesomeproject for so many individual
(26:04):
communities all the way up tostates that are taking, you know
, using it as a rallying cry forfilling in the gap and getting
this thing done.
So it's one of those thingsthat is, you know, available,
it's out there.
There's so much already open,it's really cool.
Then someday, when it'scompletely done, I think about
(26:24):
like, what an adventure.
Right, you mentioned it.
The original advent of theinterstate highway system was go
see the country, and I think ofthe Great American Rail Trail
the same way, but better.
Right, like there's no betterway to see the country because,
quite frankly, seeing thecountry is cool.
But anybody that's gone on abig adventure hiking, biking.
(26:45):
The first thing everybody talksabout are the people and places
the people they hunted, theplaces they were.
They'll eventually get to thecool mountain they saw or this
really beautiful scenery.
The first stories are alwaysthe people and places 100%
correct.
And when you're going 60, 70, 80miles an hour in a car, you are
passing a lot of cool peopleand places that you will never
(27:06):
meet, never make memories of.
When you are on a bike, you'removing slower.
You're seeing, you'reexperiencing the people in
places and those are thememories, man, that's life.
And, again, that's where acommunity happens, whether it's
your community that you know ora complete stranger in some
rural town, in who knows whereAmerica.
(27:26):
You rarely get to stop and sayhi and make a connection inside
a car.
But, man from a trail, trailsfacilitate those connections.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Love it, man, love it
, love what you guys do.
Rural communities have theseopportunities outdoors.
They have a lot of theframework necessary to
facilitate a trail of somevariety.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe the rail, like you said, but
just to think about your outdoorrecreation opportunities as an
economic driver and a source ofpride for your community, it's
(28:00):
huge, man, it's huge.
So yeah, I appreciate your time.
That's Eric Oberg from theRails to Trails Conservancy.
You can check them out online.
Their website israilstotrailsorg.
Find them on Facebook.
They're all over social mediaLots of information for
communities that may beinterested and if this has kind
of piqued your interest, pleasehit them up or any of the
organizations they work with andjust have a discussion.
(28:22):
Start there, right.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Absolutely work with
and just have a discussion.
Start there, right.
Absolutely, yeah, don't bebashful.
Engage with us, please, and weencourage and support and love
folks that support us.
Support your local trail groups.
They need it as well.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
All right, eric
Goldberg.
Rails to Trails, small talkwith Communities Unlimited.
Talk to you in a couple ofweeks.