October 1, 2024 • 33 mins
In this episode, Nicky and Ness are joined by James Bartrop of Shadow Safe to discuss the concept of "Healthy Hustle." They explore how old-school, relentless work habits can be detrimental, and why balancing drive with well-being is essential for sustainable success. James shares his personal journey from unhealthy hustle to finding a healthier, more balanced approach to business and life.
Episode Highlights:
- James's initial definition of success: "succeed at all costs"
- The wake-up call from his children that led to change
- Redefining success to prioritise family and well-being
- The importance of putting on your own "oxygen mask" first
- The value of slowing down to reassess and realign business goals
Connect with James - www.shadowsafe.com.au
Learn more about Nicky and Ness https://businesstogether.com.au
Buy a copy of Healthy Hustle: The New Blueprint to Thrive in Business & Life www.healthyhustle.com.au
Follow us on socials
Instagram - @b2businesstogether
Facebook - @B2BusinessTogether
Connect on LinkedIn
Nicky LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/connectwithnicky/
Ness LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessamedling/
Give us a call
Nicky Miklos-Woodley 0403 191 404
Vanessa (Ness) Medling 0400 226 875
Or send us an email hello@businesstogether.com.au
Music by Jules Miklos-Woodley
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicky (00:04):
Welcome to the Smart Business Growth Podcast with
Nicky and.
Ness.
Ness (00:11):
We would like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of country, theTurrbal and Bunurong people of
Brisbane and Melbournerespectively, where Nicky and I
both work and live both work andlive.
Nicky (00:30):
When we think of great examples of business owners that
are absolutely living thehealthy hustle, james Bartrop
comes to mind immediately.
James is the director andfounder of Shadowsafe, a
prominent cybersecurity companybased in Brisbane.
About seven years into hisestablished and successful
business, he was looking for adifferent way, a better way of
being successful.
That didn't have to happen atall cost Cost of time with
(00:53):
family, cost of energy, feelinghealthy, happy and cost of being
able to be present with hiskids and with his wife, who he
attributes so much of hisbusiness success to Shout out to
Danielle Now.
We met James about five yearsago when he was looking for this
better way, and it's beenincredible to watch the journey,
the success in terms of revenue98% year on year growth on
(01:17):
average over the five yearswe've been working together and
this is from an established,already profitable business.
But the thing is that thoserevenue results actually haven't
been the thing that we'vecelebrated the most.
It's been the fact that he nowhas time with his family, he has
his sanity back, his healthback and he's still successful
in business.
(01:37):
So we were really thrilled tobe able to have this
conversation with James today.
We wanted to bring him on thepodcast so that we could pick
his brain on your behalf, aroundthe things that led to his
success, that led to the bumpsin the road and also there's
still bumps in the road but howto overcome that or work through
that with the healthy hustle.
And, of course, what doeshealthy hustle mean to James
(02:00):
these days?
Enjoy the episode.
Hello, and welcome backeverybody to this week's episode
.
We are really thrilled to getthis week's episode out to you
because we have the wonderfulJames Bartrop of Shadow Safe
here joining us, as you wellknow from the introduction, and
this is really special.
This is a very special episodefor us.
(02:21):
It's very close to our heartbecause Ness and I have written
a book all about healthy hustle.
We are sick of the old schoolhardcore push, push, push, push,
push till you drop ways ofworking and yet appreciate that
actually we do need a bit ofhustle.
We don't need a bit of hustleto succeed in business, but the
(02:41):
way that we so often do it justdoesn't work.
And this is what healthy hustleis.
It's about knowing that balanceof when to push, knowing that
balance of when to pull back.
So we still have tenacity,drive, determination and we can
do it in a way where we actuallyhave time to enjoy life with
our family.
So when we were writing the book, when we think about examples
(03:02):
of healthy hustle, it was anabsolute no-brainer to get into
the conversation with James.
When we think about examples ofhealthy hustle, it was an
absolute no-brainer to get intothe conversation with James, who
we've been working with for anumber of years, because
watching his, dare I say,journey to healthy hustle from
the hardcore old schoolnarrative that we want to move
away from to where he is todayin his business is nothing short
of inspiring.
So, james, welcome, thank youfor joining us, and thank you
(03:25):
also for sharing your story soopenly and your experiences to
the point that you're actuallythe opening story in the book.
You're the hero of the openingof the book, yay.
James Bartrop (03:38):
Thank you so much , Nicky and Ness.
For me it's such an honor to benot only part of this podcast
today, but also to have a prettydecent mention in your new book
and to be able to read thatbefore any other eyes have had
the chance to read that man.
It was really special.
Nicky (03:55):
That's awesome and it's a testament to the work that
you've done, to you showing upfor yourself, for your family,
and I remember one of our very,very first conversations that we
had was around you saying Iwant my life back.
I want to be able to havedinner at the table with my
family and not feel likesomeone's waiting around the
corner for the next thing, withmy phone on the table, just
(04:17):
always being needed.
So I want to kick off by askingyou think about those early
days of business and even beyondwhen we first met.
What was your definition ofsuccess in those early days of
business?
James Bartrop (04:30):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
It's embarrassing for me to saythis, but it was succeed at all
costs and the way that Idefined that was, and I made
excuses about it as well.
I said my family need me to bethe breadwinner.
They need me to work hard sothat I can provide for them.
I made all sorts of reasons asto why it was okay to work the
(04:52):
way that I was, which was reallyunhealthy in a lot of ways.
My physical health wassuffering.
I wasn't exercising.
I was behind my desk all thetime, as you alluded to.
I had the phone sitting next tome at the dinner table waiting
for that ding to go off.
I had this constant state ofanxiousness because I was
wondering what was the nextthing that was going to happen
(05:13):
that would need my attention.
And I remember vividly and itwas quite a fork in the road for
me where the kids I picked thekids up from school and they'd
say dad, can we just have a daywhere you don't have to make
phone calls on the way home?
And for me that was a momentwhere I was like, oh my goodness
, I need to change something.
Ness (05:33):
Wow, Children are great, aren't they?
They are just like let's punchyou in the middle of the eyes
and give you some feedback righthere, right now.
James Bartrop (05:43):
It's good what you said there.
They give you the unfiltered.
They're not considering thewords that are coming out of
their mouth in a way that wemight reframe them as adults.
They just give you the versionthat they see, which can be
quite hurtful, and it's nottheir fault that they give it to
you that way.
It's what they see and it's howthey interpret what they see.
Ness (06:05):
That's right, and I think that sometimes we go into
justification, like all thereasons you had in your mind
around why you need to work hardprobably would have come to the
forefront first.
Absolutely and then it's thesitting back later on, thinking
about that and thinking aboutthe impact you're having on them
and what they're seeing aboutyou, that starts to create that
shift in mindset.
(06:26):
So would you say then that thatwas one of, or the major change
.
James Bartrop (06:32):
It was only one of, I would say, and I would
even probably go as far assaying that the way in which I
reacted to them in that momentwas probably not great either.
I probably said things like youdon't understand.
You don't know how much is onmy shoulders as far as why I'm
working the way that I am.
Ness (06:52):
Yeah, this is all for you, yeah that's right.
James Bartrop (06:56):
This is your private school fees.
As to why I'm yeah.
This is why you have a roof overyour head, all those things
that you can make excuses aboutreally easily and I think back
to when I first started mybusiness.
I didn't start my business tobe a slave to it.
I didn't start my business sothat it took and consumed all my
time.
That's not why I did it.
I did it for them, so that Ihad the freedom or flexibility
(07:20):
to be able to go to their sportevent, to be able to be a part
of a reward ceremony that theyhad at school.
That was why I did itfundamentally, and I'd moved so
far away from the actual reasonfor why I started my business.
Ness (07:32):
Yeah, wow.
And so what would you say nowhas shifted in your definition
of success?
James Bartrop (07:37):
Really good question.
I think my whole frame haschanged around.
Why I'm in business now haschanged around.
Why I'm in business nowReframing to be not about me is
probably the first thing.
It's not about my success.
It's not about what I've built,I think, for a long time and
this is something Nicky helpedme work on considerably, and
there was some teary coachingsessions where we actually
(07:59):
peeled the layers of the onionback to actually work out what
the core of the issue is.
I think for a long time I wastrying to prove myself to my dad
in particular.
I saw the definition of successfrom his perspective and that
was that he would leave veryearly in the morning, he'd get
home very late in the evening,dinner would be prepared for him
(08:20):
, ready on the table, and he'djust roll straight in and be at
the dinner table.
I thought that's what successlooked like.
I thought that part of thesuccess was going to work with
dad on a Saturday because he hadto do a little bit more and
we'd play hide and seek in hisoffice building while he would
find me.
But as I learned later, he wasactually working and giving me
(08:42):
the satisfaction of thinkingthat I was really hard to find.
Ness (08:47):
Oh no, what a clever.
James Bartrop (08:50):
So for me now I've had to reframe what success
looks like.
And again, between the two ofyou, you've said things like I
remember saying to Nicky I needto put the oxygen mask on the
kids first.
I'm happy to sacrifice myselffor them, but the reality is
that that's not what they want.
(09:11):
They want me to be around, theywant me to be healthy, they
want me to spend time with them,to enjoy life with them.
So I'd got a lot of thingsaround the wrong way and it was
hard for me to come to gripswith the fact that I needed to
put my oxygen mask on first andI needed to look after myself
first.
So I would say that's the bigchange is that I now put my
oxygen mask on first, so that Ican then help them and be with
(09:35):
them in a much more healthymanner than I was previously.
Ness (09:40):
Oh, we both just so much questions on the tip of the
tongue.
I wanted to ask and I think Ido know the answer to this but
was there a cost financially foryou making that shift in the
business?
James Bartrop (09:55):
Was there a cost?
I would say yes and no.
The yes component would be thatif I was working 24 seven, the
obvious outcome would be that Iwould have a bigger business
today.
So yes, there's a cost there,but I think about it in a
different way that the cost ismuch greater if I didn't make a
change.
Consider my kids growing up andnot knowing who I am.
(10:18):
Consider my relationship withmy wife.
If I don't invest in my kidsand in my wife and our
relationships, then I could turnaround at some point and they
would be justified to say Idon't know who you are and want
to go in separate directions.
Nicky (10:36):
I love.
Thank you for sharing, andthere's a lot that you're
sharing as well that isn't inthe book, you know.
So it's really incredible to gothat layer deeper as well,
around really what thatdefinition of success is,
because the whole premise ofthis healthy hustle is that the
thing that has gotten us to theunhealthy hustle it's our
beliefs, it's our belief systems, and where did they come from?
(10:57):
It does come from stories ofour parents and the world around
us, and I'm sure I know thatthere's people that are
listening and watching thatwould resonate so much with what
you've said and I really,really applaud you for making
that change for your kids, therole model that they see, how
they will.
You know it's breaking cycles.
Such a huge thing abouteverything that Ness and I do is
(11:19):
about how do we break cycleswhich you know, our parents and
the generations before we cansay they were doing the best
that they did with what they had, but we can do different, we
can take the baton and makeanother little improvement, and
then our kids are going to dothe same, or the kids of this
generation.
So that definition of successbeing, I put my oxygen mask on
(11:41):
first, to therefore be there fora better partner, for a better
parent, for a better businessowner, a better boss, a better
leader.
We talk in the book about theimportance of taking holidays
and actually switching off,which is something you do now we
celebrate so much, and also thepeople around you that give you
that unfiltered truth.
(12:02):
So kids are a great way to dothat and even if you don't have
kids, as other people hopefullyin your life that will give you
that unfiltered truth Siblings,partners, and if they don't,
guess who's giving it to you now?
James Bartrop (12:13):
The three of us To those of you that are
listening that are in thisconversation right now.
Nicky (12:18):
we are giving you this unfiltered truth.
So when we look at this kind of, is there anything else that
you want to add to that?
That was just a little summary,really.
James Bartrop (12:27):
Yeah, no, that's awesome.
Probably the only thing I wantto add to that is that I spent
too much attention analyzingother businesses that would like
mine and thinking, man, I wantthat.
How did they do that?
Let me work harder so I canachieve that.
And then, when I actuallystarted to connect with those
business owners on a human level, I found that not everything
(12:50):
was perfect in their business.
Not everything was as it lookedfrom the outside looking in,
and so there was a bit ofreassurance there that my
business doesn't have to beperfect either.
The business that I'm lookingat from the outside in it has
also got its own faults thatit's dealing with, and in fact I
like my faults because they'rewhat I'm used to versus what
(13:11):
they're dealing with.
I don't want what they'redealing with.
So that was a bit of anawareness piece that I had to
come to grips with, that Ididn't need to keep up with the
Joneses, because maybe theJoneses don't really have what I
want.
Nicky (13:23):
It's so true.
It's like the people that havethe big house, the car, but
everything is on loan, like theydon't own anything, and it
looks all great from the outside, but what's really going on?
And another thing that I thinkreally worthwhile bringing into
this conversation is around.
I know that in just before thetime that we started working
again, you were on thattrajectory of growth, but you
consciously chose to pause evenfrom a revenue generating
(13:46):
business building avenue toactually readjust and reset and
what that actually then, fromthe outside and looking in and
working with you, is.
It allowed you then to actuallyhave some pretty rapid growth
over the last four or five years.
And there's this whole thingaround.
Sometimes we need to slow downto speed up.
So, when you talked about thecost, there could have been a
(14:08):
financial cost, probably not aprofit in the way of profit,
maybe in terms of lookingamazing on the outside, but who
you are as you progress and thehealthy, happy human you are
Also, though, from a profitpoint of view, from the systems
and structure that's set up.
That was really something thatstruck me as well about how you
are, and were open to kind of,yeah, slowing down to be able to
(14:32):
speed up and you did get thatexponential growth in a better
way.
Is there anything, any kind oftips, that, or insights around
that that you think would beworth sharing with our audience?
James Bartrop (14:42):
Absolutely, and I really liked that you brought
that point up because it makesme think that all business is
not good business.
So I had to stop.
I had to redefine what my idealclient looked like.
I had to create some businessrules around what we were happy
to accept.
Let me say it like that as faras behaviors are concerned, as
far as how we thought therelationship should operate so
(15:04):
that it's beneficial for bothparties and by doing that it
meant that I reassessed what ouractual offering was before just
bringing new business on thatmight contribute to the problem
rather than contribute to thesolution.
So, stopping and reassessingwhere I was at, trying to
understand is the profit notthere because there's not enough
(15:26):
work, or is it not therebecause we're not selling our
products appropriately?
Ness (15:32):
Because I would imagine that if your definition of
success was work hard, makemoney and you stop and pause,
there'd be some layers of fearcoming up around everything I
know up until now that's got methis level of success.
If I change that, what happensif I lose it?
James Bartrop (15:51):
Yes.
Ness (15:51):
Did that go on for you?
James Bartrop (15:53):
Absolutely.
But again I had to come back tothe fact that not all business
was good business.
I was growing something thatwas just getting bigger and
busier.
That's what I was growing.
I wanted to be able to grow ina more smart way, and so
stopping and doing thatreassessment piece was a
critical part.
Otherwise, I was just going tobecome busier and, sure, maybe
(16:15):
I'd have a bigger team, but we'dall be busy being busy rather
than actually providing goodvalue to our clients.
Something that I think isimportant to say is that in the
early days, we took on anythingfrom anyone, and I don't think
that that's necessarily a badthing.
I think that when you're firststarting out in business, doing
anything for anyone can be quitehelpful, but try not to do that
(16:36):
forever, because it probablywon't satisfy you and satisfy
what you're trying to achieveout of the business.
Ness (16:43):
That sounds like that's the hustle piece.
Right, we've got to hustle tobuild momentum, to get it going,
but if we continue on thetrajectory of hustling, we
forget to stop to be healthy.
So what would some of thechanges that you made that you
can say around the slowing downthat are integral to the success
of your business now that youperhaps didn't have in your
(17:06):
thought process prior to thispause button?
James Bartrop (17:10):
So the pause button helped us make sure that
our systems and processes werewell-defined.
And still, as I grow, we stillfind systems and processes that
need to be improved.
So for me, it's that cannyapproach continual and never
ending improvement.
The business is never going tobe perfect, but something worthy
(17:32):
of noting as well is I'm a bitof a perfectionist, so I had to
overcome the idea that done isbetter than perfect.
These are all things that I'veheard you say, by the way, so
for me to repeat them back toyou feels really, really odd.
So stopping and realizing thatgetting that new product out the
door, even though it might nothave all the polish put on it,
(17:56):
that was okay because thefundamental components of that
product were right, thefinancial components were right
and the value that it providedto the clients was right, and
often it was just, oh, theproposal that I'm sending to
that client's not quite prettyenough.
It was more often things likethat that were not actually part
of the value that I was tryingto deliver.
Nicky (18:17):
Who would have thought, James, you would be on a podcast
all these years later sayingdone is better than perfect?
James Bartrop (18:26):
Me five years ago would have struggled to say
anything like that.
Ness (18:30):
Yes, you'd be like what.
My brain doesn't compute thisno no, probably.
James Bartrop (18:36):
something else that I went through around that
same time was are these types ofclients right for us and are we
right for them?
It's somewhere around the 2018,2019 period.
We went through our wholeclient database and we had cafes
and restaurants and gyms andthose sorts of businesses in our
(18:58):
client list and I'm not sayingthere's anything wrong with
those clients.
We just weren't right for themand they weren't right for us
and wind the clock forward toCOVID.
Having those clients as a bigpercentage of our business would
have been really quitedetrimental.
Ness (19:15):
Yeah.
Nicky (19:15):
Wow, and also I remember you talking about this, even
setting up the business with thesystems and structure to serve
those types of clients.
They need support after hours,on weekends, and your particular
business that was not the kindof business that you wanted to
set up.
I mean, you still support yourclients, you know, outside of
normal working hours, but Ithink the level of support that
they needed, I think correct meif I'm wrong so the conscious
(19:38):
decision to go, actually, whatis the future vision that I have
of my business?
What is my personal vision?
Ie, I want to be the kind ofparent that is at home with
their kids, picking the kids upfrom school, going to the
sporting events.
How does my business as avehicle meet these needs?
Is that something that I want?
So this is also something youknow it's really important to
(20:00):
look at.
If you, you know, in thisconversation with us, listening
and watching, what is yourbusiness vision and what is your
personal vision and how do thetwo meet?
Because if the two don'tconnect with each other, there's
always going to be amisalignment and you're going to
fall into the unhealthy hustle.
So for you, James, even lookingat what's these types of
clients, what is their need.
Can I deliver that and stillfit in with the business and
(20:22):
personal vision, making thedecision actually no, which
would have, I imagine, beenpretty tough and a whole process
.
But then, of course, not onlydid you build the business, of
your well, I assume, of yourdreams?
we'll ask you that question in amoment, you know but having
making the tough decisions andasking the tough questions and
making sure that it is.
Is this the future business Iwant to build?
James Bartrop (20:44):
I really like what you just said there.
It the way that we restructuredthe business made me really
value the component of askinggood questions of the client as
well, because I think that foreveryone who is in business, you
need to make sure that they'reright for you as well, as much
as we're trying to prove thatwe're right for them.
(21:07):
I've had to become morecomfortable with saying no to
people when the fit isn't quiteright.
We've done that recently where,as a cybersecurity firm, there's
certain things that everybusiness must be doing in order
to protect their business and areally quick way for us to
understand how much they valuethe service and the solution
(21:28):
that we're bringing to theirbusiness comes down to price.
If they're wanting to removecertain components of the
solution that we're bringing totheir business comes down to
price.
If they're wanting to removecertain components of the
solution that we're trying tobring to them, then it's often
an early warning sign that maybethere's going to be further
issues down the track where theyconsider the value of your
offering.
So, getting that right andmaking sure that.
(21:49):
Sure, we do provide after-hourssupport, but, based on the
types of clients that we workwith, there's very few that
operate outside of businesshours and because we ensure and
we do everything that we can toput the right products in place
for them, there's very fewthings that happen outside of
business hours that hinder themfrom being able to continue to
(22:11):
operate.
Nicky (22:16):
And the important thing about that as well is that
there's other businesses thatcan take care of them better
that are set up you know thatare, in this example, taking
care of restaurants andhospitality, et cetera.
They're set up for that.
So by freeing those clientsthat don't fit the ideal way
that you can serve them for allof us.
You know it's like arelationship we're freeing them
to find a better fit for them.
So sometimes it can be reallyhard when we start to practice
(22:37):
no, and a big part of healthyhustle is saying no.
This is one example of how, andif you kind of feel a little bit
bad, if you're listening likeoh, I don't know how, just think
you're freeing them so thatsomeone can take care of them
better and talking about thatqualifying process, so really
thinking, what is it for you?
(22:59):
That is James's version of okay, so I'm balking at the price or
I'm asking questions aroundthis what's your process early
on, where you're qualifying them, where you start to go?
I just know that this isn'tgoing to be the right fit for
either of us, so I'm going toset them free and let them find
someone that will actuallybetter serve them.
James Bartrop (23:18):
And that frees me up to find my ideal clients.
Probably the other positiveside of making that decision to
not have a whole lot of clientsthat need support out of ours is
the team and the impact on theteam.
As you're aware, I've not builta team that is 24 by 7.
We're not geared to that sortof business and nor do we need
to be, based on the types ofclients that we deal with.
I didn't want to make thatphone call on a Saturday to say,
hey Carlos, hey Leo, hey Damien, hey Ryan, can you go out and
(23:42):
solve this problem for a client?
I wanted them to have a life,too, where they know that come
knockoff time.
For 99% of the time that meansknockoff.
There's very few moments wherethey're actually disturbed in
their own personal time.
Ness (23:55):
It's interesting you raise that because you talk about
your development over the yearsand the way you've shifted your
belief system and stepped intothis concept of healthy hustle
what that means for you.
I'm curious for you to reflecton you as a leader and what you
think has changed since, perhapswhen you had that belief around
(24:16):
success when you started yourbusiness, as you were growing a
team to where you sit, with yourinfluence as a leader now.
James Bartrop (24:23):
That's a really good question and, again, I'm a
little bit embarrassed to sharethis bit of information with you
.
You both know how I'm going torespond to this, I think, and
that is that, as the businessowner, I expected everyone else
to work as hard as me.
That was something that Istruggled with for a very long
time and it affected the waythat I even communicated with
the team.
That upset them because,honestly, my expectations of
(24:45):
them was much, much higher thanit should have been, because I
was expecting them to work ashard as me.
Ness (24:52):
Yeah, yeah.
And so now, what would you say?
You do differently.
James Bartrop (24:56):
I think as a result of the decisions that we
made around the types of clientsthat we bring on, we've got
dual way respect between ourclients, as in we respect them
and they respect us.
I think that's the key partthere, and our communication has
become a whole lot better aswell.
I think that's the key partthere, and our communication has
become a whole lot better aswell.
I think 99% of problems can besolved with communication and to
(25:18):
be on the front foot with thatearly on in the engagement to
say listen, we were able to helpyou outside of hours, but it's
not something that we put aservice level agreement around.
We're here to help you, butfrom time to time that's going
to take a little bit longer thanmaybe you would like it to.
Because of these reasons and theones that I've already alluded
to, I think that a key changefor me is that I should never
(25:43):
expect anyone in my business towork as hard as me.
It's my business.
I've got the most to gainfundamentally from working hard,
but I also have had to learn towork in a healthy hustle type
of a way, rather than anunhealthy one that leads me back
down the route that I didearlier on in business.
And don't get me wrong, fromtime to time I do have those
(26:04):
late nights.
So there's a time where I haveto get back in and do things
that I don't necessarily want tobut need to be done in order to
progress something forward thatneeds the attention in that
moment.
But it's not for long periodsof time, and I also just have a
quick chat to the family and say, hey, listen, I need to exclude
(26:24):
myself tonight for sorting thisproblem out.
It's only going to be for onenight.
Sorry about that.
I need to go and sort this out.
Nicky (26:32):
Even the communication around that, and I think that's
a really important point youmake, James, because that's
exactly right.
We're not here to say thatthere's not going to be times
where we have to work thoseextra hours.
We have to pull our socks upand do that early start or even
do some work on the weekend orwhatever that might be, but it's
temporary.
It's not the habit, it's not thepattern.
There's intention behind it,there's communications
(26:55):
communication to the peoplearound us.
It's like when we talk in thebook about entrepreneurial
addiction and, you know, lookingat the six signs, which we have
another podcast episode on, wemight pop that in here and get
the book and have a read andyou'll find out even more in
there.
But you know it's it, know thatis one of the key things is how
is it affecting the peoplearound us?
I also want to say you know,observing you and how you've
(27:17):
changed as a leader, as yourteam have grown, one of the big
things that you've done islooked at.
Is this understanding aroundalso, like they're not mind
readers?
Okay so they're not going toknow exactly this level of
whatever it is that we'reexpecting.
So, so they're not going toknow exactly this level of
whatever it is that we'reexpecting.
So the processes that have beenimplemented, the standards and
documentation around clarity ofexpectations you know this is
(27:38):
really key because then you'regiving your team not just you,
james, you know all of us, buteveryone that's listening and
watching you're giving your teaman opportunity to step up.
If we don't have the rightsystems and structures to be
able to set clear expectationsof what is expected, what is
minimum standard, what is aboveand beyond, what's celebrated,
then if we don't have that,we're not giving our people the
(27:59):
chance to actually not justsurvive in the business but
thrive in the business.
So I've seen you implement thatreally well and I've also seen
your team get more empoweredaround that.
James Bartrop (28:09):
You make a good point there, and I remember
reflect back on an interviewthat I had with a team member
that's no longer with us back inthe early days.
I still remember saying here'sa little bit to know about me.
So I always talk about me aswell when I'm interviewing
someone, so that they know whothey're working with.
And to this day it just ringsin my head as not something that
(28:32):
I want to continue to repeat toanyone moving forward, and that
is that when dealing with me,you're going to get the smallest
amount of information possibleand I expect that you're going
to know what to do with that andrun with it, because I'm busy,
I'm always running around, I'mbetween appointments constantly
and I think back and think ohwow, I was not setting that
person up for any level ofsuccess, I was setting a trap
(28:56):
for them, in fact on.
I hope you can figure me outand sort it out quickly,
Otherwise it's your fault.
That's kind of how I readbetween the lines.
To actually be able to spendquality time with the team now
to do a proper handover is waymore valuable, because I was
just getting frustrated in thatprevious version of myself where
(29:16):
why don't they understandwhat's going on?
And the problem was me.
Ness (29:20):
Yeah, what's wrong with them?
James Bartrop (29:21):
I wasn't exactly, and that's what I thought to
myself initially, but then, whenit kept happening, I went huh,
I probably need to stop for asecond there and think where's
the problem coming.
Well, what's the common elementhere?
Ness (29:32):
Yeah, that's right.
Oh, that would be me.
Nicky (29:33):
Yeah, so, james, thank you again for sharing the whole
you know kind of journey.
You know very briefly, in 30minutes.
There's so much more deeper wecould go into, but I would love
for you to share.
What does healthy hustle meanto you?
James Bartrop (29:47):
Great question.
Healthy hustle now is a littlebit different.
I won't say it's completelydifferent to the way that it was
.
Again, like I alluded to, fromtime to time I need to do a
little bit extra in order topush the business forward, but
what it means now is that I havean early exit on a Monday, on a
Wednesday and on a Friday whereI pick the kids up from school
(30:07):
and, from the moment I walk intothe door when I get home, the
phone's away, no moredistractions for the remainder
of the afternoon.
I'm now in a position where Ican be completely present with
the kids to help them withhomework or to prepare dinner or
whatever the case may be.
The other thing that I havestarted to implement and I do
this at a year at a time is thatI book moments away.
So at the beginning of thisyear we booked four holidays
(30:30):
away.
It doesn't have to be overseas,it's just a week away that I
can push towards, because duringthe hours that I still have
available to me, I work reallyhard inside the timeframe that I
have.
Saying no to things thatshouldn't be, things that I do
was another important part ofthat that I wasn't overloaded
inside those hours doing thingsthat really don't bring the
(30:51):
business forward.
So, number one, having a planfor break time.
Having the plan on a page was akey thing.
What are we actually?
What's the key things thatwe're aiming for in the next 90
days that will bring about the12-month goals that we've set?
And, yeah, being reallydiligent around those early
exits, making sure that I havethat time with the kids.
Ness (31:15):
I love that You're so congruent around what it means
to you and I have seen you putthose boundaries in place and
it's really wonderful to hear.
What I'd love to ask you as wewrap up is that if somebody's
listening and they hear thatsort of perhaps the earlier
version of James in businessthat had the hustle at any cost
kind of mentality and is gettingthat reaction you know the one
(31:38):
that you had when your kids hadthe comment about could you
please just not be on the phoneso if somebody is in this sort
of like I really want to change,I really want things to get
better for me and I want to findthis healthy hustle, whatever
that means for me.
What would you say as astarting point for them to be
able to create that shift?
(31:59):
What would be the first step?
James Bartrop (32:01):
The first thing that pops into my head is again,
like I alluded to, what's thecommon denominator?
Are a number of people aroundme saying you're always saying
you're busy and maybe they'renot inviting you out to social
events anymore?
Are you feeling disconnectedfrom your friends and your
family?
Stop and think about what's thecost Is building the business
(32:22):
and sacrificing everything else?
Is that important enough forwhat the business will achieve
for you?
If not, stop.
Set out your priorities on whatis the most important thing to
you, create a plan on how youcan achieve that and then work
hard, but work hard with theplan in tow.
Ness (32:42):
That is amazing.
That actually gave me a bit ofa chill when you said that,
because it's what matters mostin life, isn't it?
That's what we've got toreconnect to.
Thank you so much, james.
You have been amazing.
We love working with you and wehave just thoroughly enjoyed
having you on our podcast, andwe trust that our listeners and
watchers have enjoyed it just asmuch as we have.
James Bartrop (33:00):
Thank you so much for having me.
What a privilege.
Ness (33:02):
You're most welcome.
Nicky (33:03):
Thanks James, thanks everyone.
Ness (33:04):
Thanks for listening to today's ep.
If you loved what you heard,connect with us over on LinkedIn
and let's continue theconversation over there.
Nicky and I are obsessed withhelping businesses install smart
business growth strategies andleveraging people leadership for
peak performance.
We bring two business minds andtwo perspectives into your
(33:26):
business, and our number onegoal is to make sure that your
business is thriving, your teamare thriving and you are
thriving.
We offer a 30-day businessdiagnostic, taking you from
chaos to clarity in just 30 days.
Are you curious to find outmore?
Send us an email or go oldschool and give us a call.
(33:46):
Until next time, happylistening and here's to thriving
in business and in life.
Welcome to the Smart Business Growth Podcast with
Nicky and.
Ness.
Ness (00:11):
We would like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of country, theTurrbal and Bunurong people of
Brisbane and Melbournerespectively, where Nicky and I
both work and live both work andlive.
Nicky (00:30):
When we think of great examples of business owners that
are absolutely living thehealthy hustle, james Bartrop
comes to mind immediately.
James is the director andfounder of Shadowsafe, a
prominent cybersecurity companybased in Brisbane.
About seven years into hisestablished and successful
business, he was looking for adifferent way, a better way of
being successful.
That didn't have to happen atall cost Cost of time with
(00:53):
family, cost of energy, feelinghealthy, happy and cost of being
able to be present with hiskids and with his wife, who he
attributes so much of hisbusiness success to Shout out to
Danielle Now.
We met James about five yearsago when he was looking for this
better way, and it's beenincredible to watch the journey,
the success in terms of revenue98% year on year growth on
(01:17):
average over the five yearswe've been working together and
this is from an established,already profitable business.
But the thing is that thoserevenue results actually haven't
been the thing that we'vecelebrated the most.
It's been the fact that he nowhas time with his family, he has
his sanity back, his healthback and he's still successful
in business.
(01:37):
So we were really thrilled tobe able to have this
conversation with James today.
We wanted to bring him on thepodcast so that we could pick
his brain on your behalf, aroundthe things that led to his
success, that led to the bumpsin the road and also there's
still bumps in the road but howto overcome that or work through
that with the healthy hustle.
And, of course, what doeshealthy hustle mean to James
(02:00):
these days?
Enjoy the episode.
Hello, and welcome backeverybody to this week's episode
.
We are really thrilled to getthis week's episode out to you
because we have the wonderfulJames Bartrop of Shadow Safe
here joining us, as you wellknow from the introduction, and
this is really special.
This is a very special episodefor us.
(02:21):
It's very close to our heartbecause Ness and I have written
a book all about healthy hustle.
We are sick of the old schoolhardcore push, push, push, push,
push till you drop ways ofworking and yet appreciate that
actually we do need a bit ofhustle.
We don't need a bit of hustleto succeed in business, but the
(02:41):
way that we so often do it justdoesn't work.
And this is what healthy hustleis.
It's about knowing that balanceof when to push, knowing that
balance of when to pull back.
So we still have tenacity,drive, determination and we can
do it in a way where we actuallyhave time to enjoy life with
our family.
So when we were writing the book, when we think about examples
(03:02):
of healthy hustle, it was anabsolute no-brainer to get into
the conversation with James.
When we think about examples ofhealthy hustle, it was an
absolute no-brainer to get intothe conversation with James, who
we've been working with for anumber of years, because
watching his, dare I say,journey to healthy hustle from
the hardcore old schoolnarrative that we want to move
away from to where he is todayin his business is nothing short
of inspiring.
So, james, welcome, thank youfor joining us, and thank you
(03:25):
also for sharing your story soopenly and your experiences to
the point that you're actuallythe opening story in the book.
You're the hero of the openingof the book, yay.
James Bartrop (03:38):
Thank you so much , Nicky and Ness.
For me it's such an honor to benot only part of this podcast
today, but also to have a prettydecent mention in your new book
and to be able to read thatbefore any other eyes have had
the chance to read that man.
It was really special.
Nicky (03:55):
That's awesome and it's a testament to the work that
you've done, to you showing upfor yourself, for your family,
and I remember one of our very,very first conversations that we
had was around you saying Iwant my life back.
I want to be able to havedinner at the table with my
family and not feel likesomeone's waiting around the
corner for the next thing, withmy phone on the table, just
(04:17):
always being needed.
So I want to kick off by askingyou think about those early
days of business and even beyondwhen we first met.
What was your definition ofsuccess in those early days of
business?
James Bartrop (04:30):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
It's embarrassing for me to saythis, but it was succeed at all
costs and the way that Idefined that was, and I made
excuses about it as well.
I said my family need me to bethe breadwinner.
They need me to work hard sothat I can provide for them.
I made all sorts of reasons asto why it was okay to work the
(04:52):
way that I was, which was reallyunhealthy in a lot of ways.
My physical health wassuffering.
I wasn't exercising.
I was behind my desk all thetime, as you alluded to.
I had the phone sitting next tome at the dinner table waiting
for that ding to go off.
I had this constant state ofanxiousness because I was
wondering what was the nextthing that was going to happen
(05:13):
that would need my attention.
And I remember vividly and itwas quite a fork in the road for
me where the kids I picked thekids up from school and they'd
say dad, can we just have a daywhere you don't have to make
phone calls on the way home?
And for me that was a momentwhere I was like, oh my goodness
, I need to change something.
Ness (05:33):
Wow, Children are great, aren't they?
They are just like let's punchyou in the middle of the eyes
and give you some feedback righthere, right now.
James Bartrop (05:43):
It's good what you said there.
They give you the unfiltered.
They're not considering thewords that are coming out of
their mouth in a way that wemight reframe them as adults.
They just give you the versionthat they see, which can be
quite hurtful, and it's nottheir fault that they give it to
you that way.
It's what they see and it's howthey interpret what they see.
Ness (06:05):
That's right, and I think that sometimes we go into
justification, like all thereasons you had in your mind
around why you need to work hardprobably would have come to the
forefront first.
Absolutely and then it's thesitting back later on, thinking
about that and thinking aboutthe impact you're having on them
and what they're seeing aboutyou, that starts to create that
shift in mindset.
(06:26):
So would you say then that thatwas one of, or the major change
.
James Bartrop (06:32):
It was only one of, I would say, and I would
even probably go as far assaying that the way in which I
reacted to them in that momentwas probably not great either.
I probably said things like youdon't understand.
You don't know how much is onmy shoulders as far as why I'm
working the way that I am.
Ness (06:52):
Yeah, this is all for you, yeah that's right.
James Bartrop (06:56):
This is your private school fees.
As to why I'm yeah.
This is why you have a roof overyour head, all those things
that you can make excuses aboutreally easily and I think back
to when I first started mybusiness.
I didn't start my business tobe a slave to it.
I didn't start my business sothat it took and consumed all my
time.
That's not why I did it.
I did it for them, so that Ihad the freedom or flexibility
(07:20):
to be able to go to their sportevent, to be able to be a part
of a reward ceremony that theyhad at school.
That was why I did itfundamentally, and I'd moved so
far away from the actual reasonfor why I started my business.
Ness (07:32):
Yeah, wow.
And so what would you say nowhas shifted in your definition
of success?
James Bartrop (07:37):
Really good question.
I think my whole frame haschanged around.
Why I'm in business now haschanged around.
Why I'm in business nowReframing to be not about me is
probably the first thing.
It's not about my success.
It's not about what I've built,I think, for a long time and
this is something Nicky helpedme work on considerably, and
there was some teary coachingsessions where we actually
(07:59):
peeled the layers of the onionback to actually work out what
the core of the issue is.
I think for a long time I wastrying to prove myself to my dad
in particular.
I saw the definition of successfrom his perspective and that
was that he would leave veryearly in the morning, he'd get
home very late in the evening,dinner would be prepared for him
(08:20):
, ready on the table, and he'djust roll straight in and be at
the dinner table.
I thought that's what successlooked like.
I thought that part of thesuccess was going to work with
dad on a Saturday because he hadto do a little bit more and
we'd play hide and seek in hisoffice building while he would
find me.
But as I learned later, he wasactually working and giving me
(08:42):
the satisfaction of thinkingthat I was really hard to find.
Ness (08:47):
Oh no, what a clever.
James Bartrop (08:50):
So for me now I've had to reframe what success
looks like.
And again, between the two ofyou, you've said things like I
remember saying to Nicky I needto put the oxygen mask on the
kids first.
I'm happy to sacrifice myselffor them, but the reality is
that that's not what they want.
(09:11):
They want me to be around, theywant me to be healthy, they
want me to spend time with them,to enjoy life with them.
So I'd got a lot of thingsaround the wrong way and it was
hard for me to come to gripswith the fact that I needed to
put my oxygen mask on first andI needed to look after myself
first.
So I would say that's the bigchange is that I now put my
oxygen mask on first, so that Ican then help them and be with
(09:35):
them in a much more healthymanner than I was previously.
Ness (09:40):
Oh, we both just so much questions on the tip of the
tongue.
I wanted to ask and I think Ido know the answer to this but
was there a cost financially foryou making that shift in the
business?
James Bartrop (09:55):
Was there a cost?
I would say yes and no.
The yes component would be thatif I was working 24 seven, the
obvious outcome would be that Iwould have a bigger business
today.
So yes, there's a cost there,but I think about it in a
different way that the cost ismuch greater if I didn't make a
change.
Consider my kids growing up andnot knowing who I am.
(10:18):
Consider my relationship withmy wife.
If I don't invest in my kidsand in my wife and our
relationships, then I could turnaround at some point and they
would be justified to say Idon't know who you are and want
to go in separate directions.
Nicky (10:36):
I love.
Thank you for sharing, andthere's a lot that you're
sharing as well that isn't inthe book, you know.
So it's really incredible to gothat layer deeper as well,
around really what thatdefinition of success is,
because the whole premise ofthis healthy hustle is that the
thing that has gotten us to theunhealthy hustle it's our
beliefs, it's our belief systems, and where did they come from?
(10:57):
It does come from stories ofour parents and the world around
us, and I'm sure I know thatthere's people that are
listening and watching thatwould resonate so much with what
you've said and I really,really applaud you for making
that change for your kids, therole model that they see, how
they will.
You know it's breaking cycles.
Such a huge thing abouteverything that Ness and I do is
(11:19):
about how do we break cycleswhich you know, our parents and
the generations before we cansay they were doing the best
that they did with what they had, but we can do different, we
can take the baton and makeanother little improvement, and
then our kids are going to dothe same, or the kids of this
generation.
So that definition of successbeing, I put my oxygen mask on
(11:41):
first, to therefore be there fora better partner, for a better
parent, for a better businessowner, a better boss, a better
leader.
We talk in the book about theimportance of taking holidays
and actually switching off,which is something you do now we
celebrate so much, and also thepeople around you that give you
that unfiltered truth.
(12:02):
So kids are a great way to dothat and even if you don't have
kids, as other people hopefullyin your life that will give you
that unfiltered truth Siblings,partners, and if they don't,
guess who's giving it to you now?
James Bartrop (12:13):
The three of us To those of you that are
listening that are in thisconversation right now.
Nicky (12:18):
we are giving you this unfiltered truth.
So when we look at this kind of, is there anything else that
you want to add to that?
That was just a little summary,really.
James Bartrop (12:27):
Yeah, no, that's awesome.
Probably the only thing I wantto add to that is that I spent
too much attention analyzingother businesses that would like
mine and thinking, man, I wantthat.
How did they do that?
Let me work harder so I canachieve that.
And then, when I actuallystarted to connect with those
business owners on a human level, I found that not everything
(12:50):
was perfect in their business.
Not everything was as it lookedfrom the outside looking in,
and so there was a bit ofreassurance there that my
business doesn't have to beperfect either.
The business that I'm lookingat from the outside in it has
also got its own faults thatit's dealing with, and in fact I
like my faults because they'rewhat I'm used to versus what
(13:11):
they're dealing with.
I don't want what they'redealing with.
So that was a bit of anawareness piece that I had to
come to grips with, that Ididn't need to keep up with the
Joneses, because maybe theJoneses don't really have what I
want.
Nicky (13:23):
It's so true.
It's like the people that havethe big house, the car, but
everything is on loan, like theydon't own anything, and it
looks all great from the outside, but what's really going on?
And another thing that I thinkreally worthwhile bringing into
this conversation is around.
I know that in just before thetime that we started working
again, you were on thattrajectory of growth, but you
consciously chose to pause evenfrom a revenue generating
(13:46):
business building avenue toactually readjust and reset and
what that actually then, fromthe outside and looking in and
working with you, is.
It allowed you then to actuallyhave some pretty rapid growth
over the last four or five years.
And there's this whole thingaround.
Sometimes we need to slow downto speed up.
So, when you talked about thecost, there could have been a
(14:08):
financial cost, probably not aprofit in the way of profit,
maybe in terms of lookingamazing on the outside, but who
you are as you progress and thehealthy, happy human you are
Also, though, from a profitpoint of view, from the systems
and structure that's set up.
That was really something thatstruck me as well about how you
are, and were open to kind of,yeah, slowing down to be able to
(14:32):
speed up and you did get thatexponential growth in a better
way.
Is there anything, any kind oftips, that, or insights around
that that you think would beworth sharing with our audience?
James Bartrop (14:42):
Absolutely, and I really liked that you brought
that point up because it makesme think that all business is
not good business.
So I had to stop.
I had to redefine what my idealclient looked like.
I had to create some businessrules around what we were happy
to accept.
Let me say it like that as faras behaviors are concerned, as
far as how we thought therelationship should operate so
(15:04):
that it's beneficial for bothparties and by doing that it
meant that I reassessed what ouractual offering was before just
bringing new business on thatmight contribute to the problem
rather than contribute to thesolution.
So, stopping and reassessingwhere I was at, trying to
understand is the profit notthere because there's not enough
(15:26):
work, or is it not therebecause we're not selling our
products appropriately?
Ness (15:32):
Because I would imagine that if your definition of
success was work hard, makemoney and you stop and pause,
there'd be some layers of fearcoming up around everything I
know up until now that's got methis level of success.
If I change that, what happensif I lose it?
James Bartrop (15:51):
Yes.
Ness (15:51):
Did that go on for you?
James Bartrop (15:53):
Absolutely.
But again I had to come back tothe fact that not all business
was good business.
I was growing something thatwas just getting bigger and
busier.
That's what I was growing.
I wanted to be able to grow ina more smart way, and so
stopping and doing thatreassessment piece was a
critical part.
Otherwise, I was just going tobecome busier and, sure, maybe
(16:15):
I'd have a bigger team, but we'dall be busy being busy rather
than actually providing goodvalue to our clients.
Something that I think isimportant to say is that in the
early days, we took on anythingfrom anyone, and I don't think
that that's necessarily a badthing.
I think that when you're firststarting out in business, doing
anything for anyone can be quitehelpful, but try not to do that
(16:36):
forever, because it probablywon't satisfy you and satisfy
what you're trying to achieveout of the business.
Ness (16:43):
That sounds like that's the hustle piece.
Right, we've got to hustle tobuild momentum, to get it going,
but if we continue on thetrajectory of hustling, we
forget to stop to be healthy.
So what would some of thechanges that you made that you
can say around the slowing downthat are integral to the success
of your business now that youperhaps didn't have in your
(17:06):
thought process prior to thispause button?
James Bartrop (17:10):
So the pause button helped us make sure that
our systems and processes werewell-defined.
And still, as I grow, we stillfind systems and processes that
need to be improved.
So for me, it's that cannyapproach continual and never
ending improvement.
The business is never going tobe perfect, but something worthy
(17:32):
of noting as well is I'm a bitof a perfectionist, so I had to
overcome the idea that done isbetter than perfect.
These are all things that I'veheard you say, by the way, so
for me to repeat them back toyou feels really, really odd.
So stopping and realizing thatgetting that new product out the
door, even though it might nothave all the polish put on it,
(17:56):
that was okay because thefundamental components of that
product were right, thefinancial components were right
and the value that it providedto the clients was right, and
often it was just, oh, theproposal that I'm sending to
that client's not quite prettyenough.
It was more often things likethat that were not actually part
of the value that I was tryingto deliver.
Nicky (18:17):
Who would have thought, James, you would be on a podcast
all these years later sayingdone is better than perfect?
James Bartrop (18:26):
Me five years ago would have struggled to say
anything like that.
Ness (18:30):
Yes, you'd be like what.
My brain doesn't compute thisno no, probably.
James Bartrop (18:36):
something else that I went through around that
same time was are these types ofclients right for us and are we
right for them?
It's somewhere around the 2018,2019 period.
We went through our wholeclient database and we had cafes
and restaurants and gyms andthose sorts of businesses in our
(18:58):
client list and I'm not sayingthere's anything wrong with
those clients.
We just weren't right for themand they weren't right for us
and wind the clock forward toCOVID.
Having those clients as a bigpercentage of our business would
have been really quitedetrimental.
Ness (19:15):
Yeah.
Nicky (19:15):
Wow, and also I remember you talking about this, even
setting up the business with thesystems and structure to serve
those types of clients.
They need support after hours,on weekends, and your particular
business that was not the kindof business that you wanted to
set up.
I mean, you still support yourclients, you know, outside of
normal working hours, but Ithink the level of support that
they needed, I think correct meif I'm wrong so the conscious
(19:38):
decision to go, actually, whatis the future vision that I have
of my business?
What is my personal vision?
Ie, I want to be the kind ofparent that is at home with
their kids, picking the kids upfrom school, going to the
sporting events.
How does my business as avehicle meet these needs?
Is that something that I want?
So this is also something youknow it's really important to
(20:00):
look at.
If you, you know, in thisconversation with us, listening
and watching, what is yourbusiness vision and what is your
personal vision and how do thetwo meet?
Because if the two don'tconnect with each other, there's
always going to be amisalignment and you're going to
fall into the unhealthy hustle.
So for you, James, even lookingat what's these types of
clients, what is their need.
Can I deliver that and stillfit in with the business and
(20:22):
personal vision, making thedecision actually no, which
would have, I imagine, beenpretty tough and a whole process
.
But then, of course, not onlydid you build the business, of
your well, I assume, of yourdreams?
we'll ask you that question in amoment, you know but having
making the tough decisions andasking the tough questions and
making sure that it is.
Is this the future business Iwant to build?
James Bartrop (20:44):
I really like what you just said there.
It the way that we restructuredthe business made me really
value the component of askinggood questions of the client as
well, because I think that foreveryone who is in business, you
need to make sure that they'reright for you as well, as much
as we're trying to prove thatwe're right for them.
(21:07):
I've had to become morecomfortable with saying no to
people when the fit isn't quiteright.
We've done that recently where,as a cybersecurity firm, there's
certain things that everybusiness must be doing in order
to protect their business and areally quick way for us to
understand how much they valuethe service and the solution
(21:28):
that we're bringing to theirbusiness comes down to price.
If they're wanting to removecertain components of the
solution that we're bringing totheir business comes down to
price.
If they're wanting to removecertain components of the
solution that we're trying tobring to them, then it's often
an early warning sign that maybethere's going to be further
issues down the track where theyconsider the value of your
offering.
So, getting that right andmaking sure that.
(21:49):
Sure, we do provide after-hourssupport, but, based on the
types of clients that we workwith, there's very few that
operate outside of businesshours and because we ensure and
we do everything that we can toput the right products in place
for them, there's very fewthings that happen outside of
business hours that hinder themfrom being able to continue to
(22:11):
operate.
Nicky (22:16):
And the important thing about that as well is that
there's other businesses thatcan take care of them better
that are set up you know thatare, in this example, taking
care of restaurants andhospitality, et cetera.
They're set up for that.
So by freeing those clientsthat don't fit the ideal way
that you can serve them for allof us.
You know it's like arelationship we're freeing them
to find a better fit for them.
So sometimes it can be reallyhard when we start to practice
(22:37):
no, and a big part of healthyhustle is saying no.
This is one example of how, andif you kind of feel a little bit
bad, if you're listening likeoh, I don't know how, just think
you're freeing them so thatsomeone can take care of them
better and talking about thatqualifying process, so really
thinking, what is it for you?
(22:59):
That is James's version of okay, so I'm balking at the price or
I'm asking questions aroundthis what's your process early
on, where you're qualifying them, where you start to go?
I just know that this isn'tgoing to be the right fit for
either of us, so I'm going toset them free and let them find
someone that will actuallybetter serve them.
James Bartrop (23:18):
And that frees me up to find my ideal clients.
Probably the other positiveside of making that decision to
not have a whole lot of clientsthat need support out of ours is
the team and the impact on theteam.
As you're aware, I've not builta team that is 24 by 7.
We're not geared to that sortof business and nor do we need
to be, based on the types ofclients that we deal with.
I didn't want to make thatphone call on a Saturday to say,
hey Carlos, hey Leo, hey Damien, hey Ryan, can you go out and
(23:42):
solve this problem for a client?
I wanted them to have a life,too, where they know that come
knockoff time.
For 99% of the time that meansknockoff.
There's very few moments wherethey're actually disturbed in
their own personal time.
Ness (23:55):
It's interesting you raise that because you talk about
your development over the yearsand the way you've shifted your
belief system and stepped intothis concept of healthy hustle
what that means for you.
I'm curious for you to reflecton you as a leader and what you
think has changed since, perhapswhen you had that belief around
(24:16):
success when you started yourbusiness, as you were growing a
team to where you sit, with yourinfluence as a leader now.
James Bartrop (24:23):
That's a really good question and, again, I'm a
little bit embarrassed to sharethis bit of information with you
.
You both know how I'm going torespond to this, I think, and
that is that, as the businessowner, I expected everyone else
to work as hard as me.
That was something that Istruggled with for a very long
time and it affected the waythat I even communicated with
the team.
That upset them because,honestly, my expectations of
(24:45):
them was much, much higher thanit should have been, because I
was expecting them to work ashard as me.
Ness (24:52):
Yeah, yeah.
And so now, what would you say?
You do differently.
James Bartrop (24:56):
I think as a result of the decisions that we
made around the types of clientsthat we bring on, we've got
dual way respect between ourclients, as in we respect them
and they respect us.
I think that's the key partthere, and our communication has
become a whole lot better aswell.
I think that's the key partthere, and our communication has
become a whole lot better aswell.
I think 99% of problems can besolved with communication and to
(25:18):
be on the front foot with thatearly on in the engagement to
say listen, we were able to helpyou outside of hours, but it's
not something that we put aservice level agreement around.
We're here to help you, butfrom time to time that's going
to take a little bit longer thanmaybe you would like it to.
Because of these reasons and theones that I've already alluded
to, I think that a key changefor me is that I should never
(25:43):
expect anyone in my business towork as hard as me.
It's my business.
I've got the most to gainfundamentally from working hard,
but I also have had to learn towork in a healthy hustle type
of a way, rather than anunhealthy one that leads me back
down the route that I didearlier on in business.
And don't get me wrong, fromtime to time I do have those
(26:04):
late nights.
So there's a time where I haveto get back in and do things
that I don't necessarily want tobut need to be done in order to
progress something forward thatneeds the attention in that
moment.
But it's not for long periodsof time, and I also just have a
quick chat to the family and say, hey, listen, I need to exclude
(26:24):
myself tonight for sorting thisproblem out.
It's only going to be for onenight.
Sorry about that.
I need to go and sort this out.
Nicky (26:32):
Even the communication around that, and I think that's
a really important point youmake, James, because that's
exactly right.
We're not here to say thatthere's not going to be times
where we have to work thoseextra hours.
We have to pull our socks upand do that early start or even
do some work on the weekend orwhatever that might be, but it's
temporary.
It's not the habit, it's not thepattern.
There's intention behind it,there's communications
(26:55):
communication to the peoplearound us.
It's like when we talk in thebook about entrepreneurial
addiction and, you know, lookingat the six signs, which we have
another podcast episode on, wemight pop that in here and get
the book and have a read andyou'll find out even more in
there.
But you know it's it, know thatis one of the key things is how
is it affecting the peoplearound us?
I also want to say you know,observing you and how you've
(27:17):
changed as a leader, as yourteam have grown, one of the big
things that you've done islooked at.
Is this understanding aroundalso, like they're not mind
readers?
Okay so they're not going toknow exactly this level of
whatever it is that we'reexpecting.
So, so they're not going toknow exactly this level of
whatever it is that we'reexpecting.
So the processes that have beenimplemented, the standards and
documentation around clarity ofexpectations you know this is
(27:38):
really key because then you'regiving your team not just you,
james, you know all of us, buteveryone that's listening and
watching you're giving your teaman opportunity to step up.
If we don't have the rightsystems and structures to be
able to set clear expectationsof what is expected, what is
minimum standard, what is aboveand beyond, what's celebrated,
then if we don't have that,we're not giving our people the
(27:59):
chance to actually not justsurvive in the business but
thrive in the business.
So I've seen you implement thatreally well and I've also seen
your team get more empoweredaround that.
James Bartrop (28:09):
You make a good point there, and I remember
reflect back on an interviewthat I had with a team member
that's no longer with us back inthe early days.
I still remember saying here'sa little bit to know about me.
So I always talk about me aswell when I'm interviewing
someone, so that they know whothey're working with.
And to this day it just ringsin my head as not something that
(28:32):
I want to continue to repeat toanyone moving forward, and that
is that when dealing with me,you're going to get the smallest
amount of information possibleand I expect that you're going
to know what to do with that andrun with it, because I'm busy,
I'm always running around, I'mbetween appointments constantly
and I think back and think ohwow, I was not setting that
person up for any level ofsuccess, I was setting a trap
(28:56):
for them, in fact on.
I hope you can figure me outand sort it out quickly,
Otherwise it's your fault.
That's kind of how I readbetween the lines.
To actually be able to spendquality time with the team now
to do a proper handover is waymore valuable, because I was
just getting frustrated in thatprevious version of myself where
(29:16):
why don't they understandwhat's going on?
And the problem was me.
Ness (29:20):
Yeah, what's wrong with them?
James Bartrop (29:21):
I wasn't exactly, and that's what I thought to
myself initially, but then, whenit kept happening, I went huh,
I probably need to stop for asecond there and think where's
the problem coming.
Well, what's the common elementhere?
Ness (29:32):
Yeah, that's right.
Oh, that would be me.
Nicky (29:33):
Yeah, so, james, thank you again for sharing the whole
you know kind of journey.
You know very briefly, in 30minutes.
There's so much more deeper wecould go into, but I would love
for you to share.
What does healthy hustle meanto you?
James Bartrop (29:47):
Great question.
Healthy hustle now is a littlebit different.
I won't say it's completelydifferent to the way that it was
.
Again, like I alluded to, fromtime to time I need to do a
little bit extra in order topush the business forward, but
what it means now is that I havean early exit on a Monday, on a
Wednesday and on a Friday whereI pick the kids up from school
(30:07):
and, from the moment I walk intothe door when I get home, the
phone's away, no moredistractions for the remainder
of the afternoon.
I'm now in a position where Ican be completely present with
the kids to help them withhomework or to prepare dinner or
whatever the case may be.
The other thing that I havestarted to implement and I do
this at a year at a time is thatI book moments away.
So at the beginning of thisyear we booked four holidays
(30:30):
away.
It doesn't have to be overseas,it's just a week away that I
can push towards, because duringthe hours that I still have
available to me, I work reallyhard inside the timeframe that I
have.
Saying no to things thatshouldn't be, things that I do
was another important part ofthat that I wasn't overloaded
inside those hours doing thingsthat really don't bring the
(30:51):
business forward.
So, number one, having a planfor break time.
Having the plan on a page was akey thing.
What are we actually?
What's the key things thatwe're aiming for in the next 90
days that will bring about the12-month goals that we've set?
And, yeah, being reallydiligent around those early
exits, making sure that I havethat time with the kids.
Ness (31:15):
I love that You're so congruent around what it means
to you and I have seen you putthose boundaries in place and
it's really wonderful to hear.
What I'd love to ask you as wewrap up is that if somebody's
listening and they hear thatsort of perhaps the earlier
version of James in businessthat had the hustle at any cost
kind of mentality and is gettingthat reaction you know the one
(31:38):
that you had when your kids hadthe comment about could you
please just not be on the phoneso if somebody is in this sort
of like I really want to change,I really want things to get
better for me and I want to findthis healthy hustle, whatever
that means for me.
What would you say as astarting point for them to be
able to create that shift?
(31:59):
What would be the first step?
James Bartrop (32:01):
The first thing that pops into my head is again,
like I alluded to, what's thecommon denominator?
Are a number of people aroundme saying you're always saying
you're busy and maybe they'renot inviting you out to social
events anymore?
Are you feeling disconnectedfrom your friends and your
family?
Stop and think about what's thecost Is building the business
(32:22):
and sacrificing everything else?
Is that important enough forwhat the business will achieve
for you?
If not, stop.
Set out your priorities on whatis the most important thing to
you, create a plan on how youcan achieve that and then work
hard, but work hard with theplan in tow.
Ness (32:42):
That is amazing.
That actually gave me a bit ofa chill when you said that,
because it's what matters mostin life, isn't it?
That's what we've got toreconnect to.
Thank you so much, james.
You have been amazing.
We love working with you and wehave just thoroughly enjoyed
having you on our podcast, andwe trust that our listeners and
watchers have enjoyed it just asmuch as we have.
James Bartrop (33:00):
Thank you so much for having me.
What a privilege.
Ness (33:02):
You're most welcome.
Nicky (33:03):
Thanks James, thanks everyone.
Ness (33:04):
Thanks for listening to today's ep.
If you loved what you heard,connect with us over on LinkedIn
and let's continue theconversation over there.
Nicky and I are obsessed withhelping businesses install smart
business growth strategies andleveraging people leadership for
peak performance.
We bring two business minds andtwo perspectives into your
(33:26):
business, and our number onegoal is to make sure that your
business is thriving, your teamare thriving and you are
thriving.
We offer a 30-day businessdiagnostic, taking you from
chaos to clarity in just 30 days.
Are you curious to find outmore?
Send us an email or go oldschool and give us a call.
(33:46):
Until next time, happylistening and here's to thriving
in business and in life.
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