October 15, 2025 • 29 mins
For many years, researchers categorized sex as a biological drive like thirst, hunger, sleep or temperature control. But the question lingered, “what if you don’t have sex? What will happen to you?” Unlike thirst or hunger, individuals will survive without sex, says Dr. Adrienne Rowland, an AASECT-certified sex therapist specializing in sexual health and LGBTQIA+ affirming care. During this Smart Sex, Smart Love podcast, she discusses the difference between spontaneous desire and responsive desire and why both are normal, how to manage desire discrepancies, and what to do about male patriarchy systems that remain present today.
“When I talk with couples, many still follow the traditional male patriarchy system: a man’s sexual desire is a woman’s responsibility,” Dr. Rowland finds. “In our patriarchal society, women often grow up learning that sex is not for them; it is their role to pleasure their male partner. It is important to empower primarily women to feel confident with their body autonomy, and to not feel guilty for saying ‘no’ to a sexual encounter they don’t want,” she asserts.
“We are responsible for our own pleasure. Normalize it. Negotiate your desires, and the result will be very freeing,” Dr. Rowland announces. “No one should give permission to explore their own pleasure.”
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Episode Transcript
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JOE KORT (00:05):
Welcome to Smart sex, smart love, where talking about
sex goes beyond the taboo andtalking about love goes beyond
the honeymoon. My guest today isDr Adrian Rowland, a licensed
Master's social worker, asexcertified sex therapist, sex
therapist, supervisor with adoctorate in clinical sexology
and an a sec approved continuingeducator. Provider. Dr rowland's
(00:28):
doctoral project focused oncreating a gender affirming care
curriculum for medical providersto improve knowledge and reduce
bias. She also created standardsfor queer affirmative care as
well as a comprehensive resourceguide for a source, web based
network that enables serviceagencies to coordinate care for
(00:48):
residents. Dr Roland specializesin sexual health and LGBTQ, plus
affirming care, offeringtherapy, supervision, teaching
and consulting. Today, she'sgoing to be talking to us on the
subject of sex is not a drive.
We often say sex drive, but it'sreally not a drive. And she's
going to explain, welcomeAdrienne, Hi, Joe. Thank you for
(01:08):
having me. Oh, it's my pleasureto have you. I've known you for
quite a while, and I love yourwork. And I mean, I'm reading
this, you've done so much morethan when I first met you. It's
incredible. Well, you were mysupervisor for my asect sex
therapy certification, which wasGus 2017 now, wow, yeah, so we,
we did this through covid too.
(01:31):
Yeah, yeah, wow. Well, you're agem in the field. I've always
felt that way, and I've come toyou for things, and you were so
good with the paperwork. Thankyou. I hate paperwork, so that
too. My pleasure. Thank you. Iappreciate it. All right. Well,
let's get right into it aboutsex not being a drive. You say
it's a biological drive? No,it's not a biological drive like
(01:51):
hunger or sleep. We explainthis, sure. So we think about
drive like a mechanism to helpan organism create a healthy
baseline. So if you think aboutthirst, hunger, sleep,
temperature, control, all ofthose things our body needs to
(02:12):
do to survive, oftentimes or fora long time, researchers thought
sex was also a drive, becausethere was a compulsion to have
sex, and there was a need or adesire to have sex, and so they
thought it was one of thedrives. But then they found,
well, what happens if somebodydoesn't have sex? They certainly
(02:33):
don't die. It
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (02:35):
might be uncomfortable, they might not
enjoy it, but they certainlydon't die like they would die if
they don't drink or eat food orregulate their temperature or
sleep, one of the reasons why ithas been viewed as a drive for
so long is because of somethingcalled spontaneous desire, which
we will talk more about. Butabout 70% of men experience
(02:58):
spontaneous desire, and mostresearch is done on men has been
historically and so, becausesomeone would experience
spontaneous desire that sothey're like, Oh, this is a
drive. Because spontaneousdesire means you experience
arousal, and then are you sorry?
You experience desire like, oh,I want to have sex. And you
experience arousal right away,like maybe genital arousal, or
(03:20):
in your mind, you know you havethis desire for sex, and
because, mainly men, not always,but about 70% of men experience
this spontaneous desire. Theyviewed it more as a drive, but
we now know that you, like Isaid, you don't die if you don't
have sex. And there is somethingcalled responsive desire, which
(03:42):
is less about arousal, but moreabout getting to, kind of like
coming to the idea of, Hmm, do Iwant to have sex? I love food as
a metaphor, so I use, like adonut shop. So you can go, you
can say, Oh, I saw this donut ona TV commercial. It looked
pretty interesting. I go to thedonut shop, I look at the sign,
(04:03):
and I'm like, Oh, that lookspretty nice. I maybe I smell the
bakery, and I'm like, Noah,smells pretty good. But
nothing's really stirring in meyet. I'm just curious. So maybe
I go in, I take a look at thecounter or what's behind the
glass, and like, that looks likea pretty interesting donut. I'll
try it all the while. I'mcurious. I might be willing, but
again, like my mouth isn'twatering, I'm not My stomach's
(04:24):
not rumbling, but maybe once Itake a couple bites of the donut
and I'm like, Oh, now that's atasty donut. I want more. That's
maybe when arousal in for adonut may come. And so it might
be after I might experiencedesire, after arousal. So it
(04:47):
might be in the midst of in thecontext of sex, of beginning to
have sex, beginning to besexual, that the someone who has
responsive desire might. Mightsay, like, I'm into this. I want
to keep doing this. This is athis is good I'm experiencing.
And then I might even experiencegenital result, arousal as a
result. If that makes sense, itdoesn't
JOE KORT (05:10):
make sense. So let me, let me put in terms that I can
understand for myself. So Iwatch, you know, a lot of tick
tock, and I'll see creators whoeat, and I don't know why, men
or women, I love to watch themeat. And this one Creator, she
goes to different places and andI watch her get the burger and
hear the rapper and everything,and I'm like, Oh my God, that
makes me so I feel hungry. ButI'm like, Yeah, then I go to the
next one. But you're saying thatif I went to the actual place
(05:32):
and ate the same thing she'seating, and I wasn't that hungry
and I started eating it, then Iwould start to find myself
hungry. The same is true for sexwith responsive
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (05:41):
sex. That yes, the same is true with
responsive sex, but you mightexperience spontaneous desire if
you are watching that personunwrap the burger and eat it,
and your mouth starts wateringand your stomach starts
growling, that would be more ofa spontaneous desire response,
because you're the thought ofit, the idea of it has you
(06:05):
reacting, whereas more of aresponsive arousal, you might
have to actually be in, youknow, eating the burger to be
then like, yeah, that's a goodburger. I want to keep eating
this.
JOE KORT (06:15):
And isn't it true that women are more with responsive
sex and men are morespontaneous? Is that
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (06:20):
how it is.
It's not a universal truth,right? But about 70% of men
experience spontaneous desire,and about 15 to 30% of of women
may experience more spontaneousarousal. Other than that, it's
more responsive. And of course,if there's a guy out there who's
(06:43):
saying like, Oh, that doesn'tfit me at all, I have more of a
responsive desire. There'snothing wrong with you. It's not
a one is better than the other.
They're just completelydifferent and same. With a woman
who's saying like, Oh my gosh, Ithink about sex. And, you know,
have a general response and wantsex all the time. I must be
spontaneous or have aspontaneous desire style.
(07:05):
There's nothing wrong with you.
Doesn't mean that you're you'renot doing your gender right.
JOE KORT (07:10):
And a lot of men do feel something's wrong with them
if they own, if they haveresponsive over spontaneous,
because the the vision of men isthat we should we all are like
that. We're all walking aroundwanting it all the time,
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAN (07:22):
absolutely, absolutely. And that's just not
that's not true. And contextmatters, right?
JOE KORT (07:29):
Yes, context matters.
And I like what you're saying,because women will often say,
too. And I'll tell women, as asex therapist, even if you're
not in the mood, you might tryengaging in some sexual contact,
and then you might find yourselfa woman will say, then, I do
find myself being in the moodlike you just said about the
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (07:44):
burger.
Absolutely, absolutely. So it'snot about forcing yourself to
get in the mood, but do thingsthat help put you in the right
context. And maybe it's, youknow, doing some grooming, maybe
it's relaxation, maybe it'sreading something erotic, or
watching porn or or or nonsexual touch to kind of, you
know, like massage or touch, youknow, back rubs or things like
(08:09):
that, or hugging, snuggling,kissing, those things can lead
up to sex that can help increasearousal.
JOE KORT (08:20):
Yeah, and just for the sake of outer course, shout out
those things can just be sexualin and of themselves without
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (08:27):
absolutely penetration, right? Absolutely
and, you know, historically oranecdotal, I don't know men
often, I don't want tostereotype, but some men often
skip over some of those outercourse things or what they would
consider as, quote, foreplay, Ilike to say it's all play. It's
(08:49):
not that just penetration iswhat is sex, right? And so if
that is what someone needs tohelp them, you know, because
they have more of a responsivearousal or responsive desire
style, they might be missing outon that because their partner or
they may not even know thatthat's true for them, and they
(09:10):
might be skipping that alltogether.
JOE KORT (09:11):
Yeah, right, that makes sense. Did you make up
that all play? Because I want toborrow it, if
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (09:15):
you don't mind. I think so. I mean, I
don't know if I heard itsomewhere or not. I just, I just
said it, feel free. Becausebecause
JOE KORT (09:23):
it counts for everything, right? It's out, of
course, and inner cores andanything, right? Yes,
absolutely, all right. So youdescribe sex as an incentive
motivation system. What doesthis mean? Yeah.
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (09:34):
So I get this from Emily nagaski. So if
you're not familiar anyone outthere, Emily nagoski wrote, come
as you are, which I think is oneof the most important books for
anybody to read, regardless ofyour sex, because it gives so
much needed research andinformation about AFAB assigned
female at birth, bodies and howthey operate. So she and I'm
(09:55):
just going to read it because Idon't want to mess it up. So she
says an incentive most.
Innovation system means that aperson is being pulled by an
attractive external stimulusinstead of driven by an
uncomfortable internalexperience, like hunger, hunger
or thirst. So if you think aboutlike someone might be like, see
something sexually stimulating,they think about something
(10:18):
sexually stimulating or it'sit's more external to them than
feeling like your stomach rumbleor your throat parched, where
that is uncomfortable and youwant to alleviate that. So sex
is more about going towardssomething pleasurable, rather
than doing something to avoidsomething uncomfortable. Does
that make sense?
JOE KORT (10:42):
Oh, yeah. All right, thanks for clearing that up. So
what about you say also thatwhen you talk with couples about
sex not being a drive, ittypically is because of male
patriarchy symptoms system likemale patriarchy systems that
assert that a man's sexualdesire is the woman's
responsibility. Will you talkabout this? Too?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (11:02):
Sure. So again, this isn't exclusive to
heterosexual relationships.
However, it is seen often inheterosexual relationships,
partly because we do live in apatriarchal society, and often
religious systems elevate thepatriarchy to view the man as
kind of the most importantentity, and women are very often
(11:23):
in these societies taught thatsex is not for them, if the end
that they're not even sexual. Idon't know how many clients I
work with, how many women thatI've worked with with who have
been told, don't worry aboutsex. It's not for you. You're
not It's not normal to want sexif you do like there's something
(11:44):
really wrong with you. It's whenthey get, you know, slut shamed
a lot. It's purity, purityculture, myth and things. And so
they may grow up learning anykind of sexual desire that they
may have, whether it'sresponsive or spontaneous, is
wrong or deviant or evil, orthat they just don't even
(12:04):
acknowledge it. And so when theyhave sex with their partner,
they it's just, really just forthem, and it's their job. It's
their obligation, whetherthey're, you know, willing or
not. This is what you do foryour husband. And so what
perpetuates that is if, ifpeople believe it is a drive,
(12:25):
then they may feel like, well,this is a need I have, and so I
need it to live. And you can'tdeny me that what I need to
live, right? And so they maythen be more manipulative or
coercive or outright abusive totheir partner, because they
don't know that it's not adrive, and they they truly
(12:46):
believe that they'll be harmed,or their harm will come to them
if they don't have sex. Or theycan say like, well, you owe me,
because I need this, and thatcan be incredibly problematic.
JOE KORT (13:02):
Yep, I see the same thing in my office. I'm sure you
do too, and then that's whyyou're talking about this. You
know about this? How does thisplay out differently? Or does it
play out differently with LGBTQcouples?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (13:12):
I think it still plays out. It may play out
a little bit differently in notso much of like gender roles,
but when we see desirediscrepancy in couples where one
person has a has more interestin sex or wants to have sex more
often than their partner, thenbeing able to come together and
(13:36):
cooperate to negotiate what thatlooks like the person who wants
to have sex more often may lookto their partner and say, You
just You owe me. I'm you areresponsible for my pleasure, and
they may require or really pushfor that, especially in
situations where people don'tbelieve in masturbation, where
(13:59):
they don't believe inexperiencing pleasure for
themselves, they may really lookto their partner for that kind
of of outlet. But in LGBTQ, Ithink it's mostly when there's
desire discrepancy that we wouldsee that happening, maybe less
so than with a gendered as forgendered reasons,
JOE KORT (14:19):
yep, yep. And what I noticed from the gay male
couples is when there's adesired discrepancy, we just say
to each other, then go find itsomewhere else. Go get your
rocks off and come back to me,as long as I'm your primary. Not
all gay couples, male couples,but often, right?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (14:33):
Yeah, and that, and that is often not
negotiated in heterosexualcouples. No at all where that
could be a really valuableoption, but when the higher
desire couple like and how eachperson views their partner,
right? So the person with lowerdesire may view their partner as
(14:55):
hyper sexualized, a sex addict,which we know is not a thing.
Mean and have a problem, and thehigher drive, sorry, see, I even
say it language, yeah, well, Imean, it's colloquial. I mean
it's okay, it's okay to say it,as long as we know it's not
(15:17):
real, like it's not, it's not,you know, because we're gonna
say it. There are things that wesay that we don't mean all the
time. The a great example thateven Emily Noah ski uses in her
book is it's like an atheistsaying, Thank God. It doesn't
mean anything you know. So Ithink it's okay to say as long
as like in our minds, we'relike, okay, I know it's not a
drive, but what I was saying forthe person who experiences lower
(15:42):
desire, or excuse me, the personwho experiences higher desire,
they may view their partner whohas lower desire as cold,
frigid, withholding andsomething wrong with them,
right? And oftentimes, coupleswill come to therapy and say,
fix my partner. My partner wantstoo much sex. My partner doesn't
(16:03):
want sex enough. There'ssomething wrong with them
because they're different thanme. Fix them,
JOE KORT (16:10):
which leads me to the next question is, how do you
deal with that in your practice?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (16:15):
Yeah, I think through education, really,
really being able to explorewith them. What I just talked
about with you, about thedifference between spontaneous
desire, responsive desire,normalizing that, that they're
both normal and they're bothokay, and that there's not a set
amount of desire that is normalfor a human being because we're
(16:38):
so varied, and also being ableto communicate about their wants
and needs. And we know couplesdon't do this very well before
they get married. We don't teachgood sex ed in school, so we
don't know about pleasure. Wedon't talk about before somebody
gets married, or don't even haveto be married, but just
negotiating the relationshipearly on of like, what is what
(17:00):
do you want sex to look like? Soreally being able to communicate
about desires and wants, a lotof times I hear women like I
mentioned before, they don'tknow what pleasure, what they
experience, is pleasurable,because they've never really
explored for themselves. Theyhaven't felt like they've given
themselves permission. Nobodyelse has given them permission
to be sexual beings and soreally encouraging folks within
(17:25):
the couple to explore their ownpleasure, because we are
responsible for our ownpleasure, and that's what I
teach clients, too. It's not mypartner's job to make me feel
good, because there's so manyfactors that can get in the way.
I mean, we could talk about thisfor hours. It's my it's my job
to help to do things and ask forthings that feel good to me. So
(17:48):
really, being able to talk tocouples about what feels good to
them, and trying things out, andthen if they need to make
different arrangements in therelationship, like, how do they
feel about if their partnersays, You know what? Oh, you
know what? Oh, you don't want tohave sex tonight. Cool. I'm
gonna go masturbate. Or maybethey negotiate an open
relationship where somebody getsa sexual need met, or desire met
(18:11):
outside of the relationship withconsent, with, you know,
agreement in the couple. But itreally depends on what they're
looking for and kind of what thedynamic is. So
JOE KORT (18:21):
I'm going to throw something your way, and want to
get your thoughts on this,because I see this a lot in my
practice. I'm sure you do too.
So he might in many mixed gendercouples, he might say, okay, you
don't want sex, that's great.
I'm going to go masturbate. I'mgoing to look at an Instagram
account. I'm going to look atsome erotic imagery. And she's
not okay with that. Nope, nope.
Not at all. Now that's cheatingon me, so I'm not, I'm not going
to be able to satisfy you, butyou can't satisfy yourself
(18:44):
either, especially in that way.
What do you do?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (18:50):
I empathize a lot with, you know,
and we really talk about, I liketo really hear from her where
that's coming from. You know,what she's believing about that,
because there's something goingon for her that is that she's
struggling with right, thatshe's that she's viewing it as
cheating, or that she isimagining that he wants that
(19:11):
whatever he's viewing more thanhe wants her. And so I really am
normalize how the value ofmasturbation and how different
it is from partnered sex, how itit does different things for us,
like that. Didn't put that verywell, how it accomplishes
different goals than partneredsex. And then we talk about
(19:33):
bodily autonomy, and we talkabout how we don't get to tell
our partner what to do withtheir own body. And we talk
about, like, really being ableto communicate about those
needs, and where do you give soI'm hearing you say that sex is
not available for you, know, foryou, and masturbation is not
(19:54):
available for him. Where's thecooperation? Because that's not
like, how are you. Negotiatingthat in a way that feels okay to
both you we're not going to geteverything that we want, because
that's not realistic inpartnership. But where is that
that give? But it really comesdown to really addressing the
(20:14):
fears that maybe the one partnerhas about you know that might be
unrealistic or can be dispelledabout masturbation and poor
news.
JOE KORT (20:25):
I like what I thank you for this. That's helpful. I
remember hearing this thatsomebody say, Well, I'm we're in
a desire discrepancyrelationship, which, by the way,
most couples are. One wants itmore than the other, and it can
be at different extremes. Andthen you could go to another
relationship, you could say,well, this isn't working out for
me, and then you might be thehigher one in this relationship,
but the lower one in the nextrelationship, because you may be
(20:47):
with somebody who has a higherdesire, right?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAN (20:49):
Absolutely, it's all about perspective. It's
about how you are comparingyourself to somebody else. And
it is, you're right. It's verydifficult to find people
together that have very similardesire levels because we're all
so varied, and if you can talkabout that early on, if you can
(21:09):
experience sex early on in therelationship, research shows
that having sex before marriageis really helpful to the
relationship. If you can talkabout all of that openly, you
might be able to deal with someof the pitfalls, or decide you
get to a point of like, okay,maybe this relationship just
isn't for me.
JOE KORT (21:30):
I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on partners
sometimes having to be able tosay no before they can say yes,
yeah.
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (21:38):
So something I didn't talk too much
about is also what happens whensome when it is believed that
sex is a drive and one of thepartners may be coercive or
manipulative like you owe thisto me. I need this a lot of
times, the partner does not knowhow to say, no. They don't know
(21:59):
because they haven't been taughtabout bodily autonomy, and that
regardless of the relationshipstructure that they get to say
no when it comes to their body.
Does that mean that there aren'ttimes when, if you're willing,
if you're like, maybe I'm notreally feeling it, but maybe
I'll get into it, like we talkedabout earlier, that I could, we
could start to do some things,and if I feel like I want to
(22:22):
keep going, then I will. Theydon't know that they get to do
that. And so oftentimes when Italk to to I hear this like
people pleasing. And so I'll doa somatic exercise with them,
where I say, every time I sayyes. I want you to say no and
I'll say yes in a lot ofdifferent ways, and their only
(22:47):
job is to say no every time Isay yes. And you would be amazed
at how difficult and howcathartic that exercise is,
because they learn, wow, I don'treally say no anywhere in my
life. I get taken advantage of.
I'm a people pleaser. I youknow, again, Emily nagaski talks
(23:07):
about human giver syndrome, youknow, I and it's often women.
It's not always women, butoften. And so just helping them
learn to say no in small waysreally helps them then be able
to say, yes, I want this. So forfor clients, where desire
discrepancy is a big part of theissue, I take ask them to take
(23:30):
sex off the table for a periodof time completely so that
there's no question. They canflirt, they can engage in other
types of intimacy, and theydon't even have to be stressed
with oh gosh, is this going tolead to sex until they're ready
to be able to reintegrate thatand helping her be able to say,
(23:53):
No, I don't want to do that, andI'm willing to do this is really
empowering and powerful for therelationship
JOE KORT (24:02):
I love this. How is it somatic experiences,
experiencing when it's a no,yes, back and forth. Can you
explain that?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (24:09):
Yeah, so it's it's really interesting,
just really being, encouragingsomebody to listen to their
body, what they're experiencing,and if I say in a variety of
different ways. Like, just theword yes and you have to say no,
just saying it, they start tofeel things in their body. If
(24:30):
it's not something that they'reused to doing or they're
comfortable doing, they might.
I've had so many people cry notbe able to do it. Like, just
flat out refuse. And like, Nope,I can't say no, because there's
just this feeling, this veryreal feeling of, I'm going to
get in trouble, or it won't, itwill be rejected, or it won't be
respected. And a lot of thatgoes back to trauma and
experiences that they've hadearlier in their lives. And so
(24:53):
it's really about what is goingon in your body? What are you
What are you feeling? And whereso in sex therapy, I do a lot of
somatic sensing to help,especially when people have had
trauma and they have not beenable to trust, you know, their
body's response, really beingable to work towards trusting
that response. And we're gettingkind of off track on that, but
(25:16):
it's all related.
JOE KORT (25:19):
No, it's very good.
What else would you want to sayabout desire versus drive and
what people need to hear aboutall that?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (25:28):
Yeah, I think mainly empowering,
primarily women to know thatthey are not responsible for
their partner's pleasure, butanyone just to know that you are
not responsible for yourpartner's pleasure, and that you
get to ask for the type ofpleasure or the type of thing
that feels good to you, thathelps create pleasure for you,
(25:50):
and that however you experiencepleasure is normal, and whether
that's responsive orspontaneous, whether it's, you
know, using a vibrator or Not,whether it's through penetration
or not. You know whether it'sjust feeling excited when you
hear somebody whisper, I mean,all the things just really
(26:10):
trying to take the taboo out ofhow someone experiences what is
just true for them that theyexperience.
JOE KORT (26:18):
Doesn't it turn out that as sex therapist. That's
what we primarily do, is helppeople understand, as long as
it's consensual between twoadults, nothing. There's nothing
wrong with what you're doing.
That's the hardest thing peopleto
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (26:29):
learn, yeah, yeah. But when they get
that, oh my gosh, the freedom inthat. I love it. Yes, I just I
love seeing their eyes light up,especially when we talk about
normalizing masturbation or useof erotica or porn and things
like that, saying there'snothing wrong with you that's
normal, that that would turn youon.
JOE KORT (26:47):
Yes, yeah, just like it, I get turned on. Hung but
with hunger, watching somebodyeat online,
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (26:54):
yeah?
Which is crazy to me, Joe. I'mjust kidding
JOE KORT (27:00):
me too. When I first started, I was like, I kind of
like I kind of like this.
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (27:03):
But you know, what's even crazier is I
love watching animals eat, justand watching people eat, but I
love the sound and sight ofanimals eating. Like, oh, wow,
yeah. So there you go. We'redifferent.
JOE KORT (27:16):
That's another podcast we can do maybe. All right, so
how can people find you on theinternet?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (27:24):
Um, yeah, so I'm, I am not like a big
social media person tool forthat, even though I'm younger
than you. Oh, sorry, I just soprimarily, I mean, I have a
very, very, very small presenceon social media, so email is
absolutely the best way ofgetting a hold of me. Adrian
Roland, 60 eight@gmail.com andI'll respond so but yeah, that's
(27:49):
probably the best way, because Idon't like to answer the phone,
but I will respond to emailsvery readily, right?
JOE KORT (27:55):
Alright, and they can find you also on the a sec
American Association for sexeducators, counselors and
therapists.org,
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (28:01):
yes, that and I'm on Psychology Today,
also, just look me up that way.
Yeah, right.
JOE KORT (28:08):
Well, it's been a pleasure having you on my show.
It's been a pleasure having youas my student now, my colleague
and I'm people need to hear whatyou have to say, so I'm glad
that we have a forum for it
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (28:17):
now. I appreciate it so much. It's been
a lot of fun,
JOE KORT (28:21):
all right, and those of you that are listening, you
can hear my podcast at Smartsex, smart love.com you can also
follow me on Tiktok, Twitter,Instagram, Facebook. My handle
is at Dr. Joe court, D, R, J, o,e, K, O, R T. You can also go to
my website. Joe court.com thanksfor listening until next time,
(28:42):
be safe and stay healthy. You.
Welcome to Smart sex, smart love, where talking about
sex goes beyond the taboo andtalking about love goes beyond
the honeymoon. My guest today isDr Adrian Rowland, a licensed
Master's social worker, asexcertified sex therapist, sex
therapist, supervisor with adoctorate in clinical sexology
and an a sec approved continuingeducator. Provider. Dr rowland's
(00:28):
doctoral project focused oncreating a gender affirming care
curriculum for medical providersto improve knowledge and reduce
bias. She also created standardsfor queer affirmative care as
well as a comprehensive resourceguide for a source, web based
network that enables serviceagencies to coordinate care for
(00:48):
residents. Dr Roland specializesin sexual health and LGBTQ, plus
affirming care, offeringtherapy, supervision, teaching
and consulting. Today, she'sgoing to be talking to us on the
subject of sex is not a drive.
We often say sex drive, but it'sreally not a drive. And she's
going to explain, welcomeAdrienne, Hi, Joe. Thank you for
(01:08):
having me. Oh, it's my pleasureto have you. I've known you for
quite a while, and I love yourwork. And I mean, I'm reading
this, you've done so much morethan when I first met you. It's
incredible. Well, you were mysupervisor for my asect sex
therapy certification, which wasGus 2017 now, wow, yeah, so we,
we did this through covid too.
(01:31):
Yeah, yeah, wow. Well, you're agem in the field. I've always
felt that way, and I've come toyou for things, and you were so
good with the paperwork. Thankyou. I hate paperwork, so that
too. My pleasure. Thank you. Iappreciate it. All right. Well,
let's get right into it aboutsex not being a drive. You say
it's a biological drive? No,it's not a biological drive like
(01:51):
hunger or sleep. We explainthis, sure. So we think about
drive like a mechanism to helpan organism create a healthy
baseline. So if you think aboutthirst, hunger, sleep,
temperature, control, all ofthose things our body needs to
(02:12):
do to survive, oftentimes or fora long time, researchers thought
sex was also a drive, becausethere was a compulsion to have
sex, and there was a need or adesire to have sex, and so they
thought it was one of thedrives. But then they found,
well, what happens if somebodydoesn't have sex? They certainly
(02:33):
don't die. It
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (02:35):
might be uncomfortable, they might not
enjoy it, but they certainlydon't die like they would die if
they don't drink or eat food orregulate their temperature or
sleep, one of the reasons why ithas been viewed as a drive for
so long is because of somethingcalled spontaneous desire, which
we will talk more about. Butabout 70% of men experience
(02:58):
spontaneous desire, and mostresearch is done on men has been
historically and so, becausesomeone would experience
spontaneous desire that sothey're like, Oh, this is a
drive. Because spontaneousdesire means you experience
arousal, and then are you sorry?
You experience desire like, oh,I want to have sex. And you
experience arousal right away,like maybe genital arousal, or
(03:20):
in your mind, you know you havethis desire for sex, and
because, mainly men, not always,but about 70% of men experience
this spontaneous desire. Theyviewed it more as a drive, but
we now know that you, like Isaid, you don't die if you don't
have sex. And there is somethingcalled responsive desire, which
(03:42):
is less about arousal, but moreabout getting to, kind of like
coming to the idea of, Hmm, do Iwant to have sex? I love food as
a metaphor, so I use, like adonut shop. So you can go, you
can say, Oh, I saw this donut ona TV commercial. It looked
pretty interesting. I go to thedonut shop, I look at the sign,
(04:03):
and I'm like, Oh, that lookspretty nice. I maybe I smell the
bakery, and I'm like, Noah,smells pretty good. But
nothing's really stirring in meyet. I'm just curious. So maybe
I go in, I take a look at thecounter or what's behind the
glass, and like, that looks likea pretty interesting donut. I'll
try it all the while. I'mcurious. I might be willing, but
again, like my mouth isn'twatering, I'm not My stomach's
(04:24):
not rumbling, but maybe once Itake a couple bites of the donut
and I'm like, Oh, now that's atasty donut. I want more. That's
maybe when arousal in for adonut may come. And so it might
be after I might experiencedesire, after arousal. So it
(04:47):
might be in the midst of in thecontext of sex, of beginning to
have sex, beginning to besexual, that the someone who has
responsive desire might. Mightsay, like, I'm into this. I want
to keep doing this. This is athis is good I'm experiencing.
And then I might even experiencegenital result, arousal as a
result. If that makes sense, itdoesn't
JOE KORT (05:10):
make sense. So let me, let me put in terms that I can
understand for myself. So Iwatch, you know, a lot of tick
tock, and I'll see creators whoeat, and I don't know why, men
or women, I love to watch themeat. And this one Creator, she
goes to different places and andI watch her get the burger and
hear the rapper and everything,and I'm like, Oh my God, that
makes me so I feel hungry. ButI'm like, Yeah, then I go to the
next one. But you're saying thatif I went to the actual place
(05:32):
and ate the same thing she'seating, and I wasn't that hungry
and I started eating it, then Iwould start to find myself
hungry. The same is true for sexwith responsive
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (05:41):
sex. That yes, the same is true with
responsive sex, but you mightexperience spontaneous desire if
you are watching that personunwrap the burger and eat it,
and your mouth starts wateringand your stomach starts
growling, that would be more ofa spontaneous desire response,
because you're the thought ofit, the idea of it has you
(06:05):
reacting, whereas more of aresponsive arousal, you might
have to actually be in, youknow, eating the burger to be
then like, yeah, that's a goodburger. I want to keep eating
this.
JOE KORT (06:15):
And isn't it true that women are more with responsive
sex and men are morespontaneous? Is that
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (06:20):
how it is.
It's not a universal truth,right? But about 70% of men
experience spontaneous desire,and about 15 to 30% of of women
may experience more spontaneousarousal. Other than that, it's
more responsive. And of course,if there's a guy out there who's
(06:43):
saying like, Oh, that doesn'tfit me at all, I have more of a
responsive desire. There'snothing wrong with you. It's not
a one is better than the other.
They're just completelydifferent and same. With a woman
who's saying like, Oh my gosh, Ithink about sex. And, you know,
have a general response and wantsex all the time. I must be
spontaneous or have aspontaneous desire style.
(07:05):
There's nothing wrong with you.
Doesn't mean that you're you'renot doing your gender right.
JOE KORT (07:10):
And a lot of men do feel something's wrong with them
if they own, if they haveresponsive over spontaneous,
because the the vision of men isthat we should we all are like
that. We're all walking aroundwanting it all the time,
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAN (07:22):
absolutely, absolutely. And that's just not
that's not true. And contextmatters, right?
JOE KORT (07:29):
Yes, context matters.
And I like what you're saying,because women will often say,
too. And I'll tell women, as asex therapist, even if you're
not in the mood, you might tryengaging in some sexual contact,
and then you might find yourselfa woman will say, then, I do
find myself being in the moodlike you just said about the
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (07:44):
burger.
Absolutely, absolutely. So it'snot about forcing yourself to
get in the mood, but do thingsthat help put you in the right
context. And maybe it's, youknow, doing some grooming, maybe
it's relaxation, maybe it'sreading something erotic, or
watching porn or or or nonsexual touch to kind of, you
know, like massage or touch, youknow, back rubs or things like
(08:09):
that, or hugging, snuggling,kissing, those things can lead
up to sex that can help increasearousal.
JOE KORT (08:20):
Yeah, and just for the sake of outer course, shout out
those things can just be sexualin and of themselves without
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (08:27):
absolutely penetration, right? Absolutely
and, you know, historically oranecdotal, I don't know men
often, I don't want tostereotype, but some men often
skip over some of those outercourse things or what they would
consider as, quote, foreplay, Ilike to say it's all play. It's
(08:49):
not that just penetration iswhat is sex, right? And so if
that is what someone needs tohelp them, you know, because
they have more of a responsivearousal or responsive desire
style, they might be missing outon that because their partner or
they may not even know thatthat's true for them, and they
(09:10):
might be skipping that alltogether.
JOE KORT (09:11):
Yeah, right, that makes sense. Did you make up
that all play? Because I want toborrow it, if
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (09:15):
you don't mind. I think so. I mean, I
don't know if I heard itsomewhere or not. I just, I just
said it, feel free. Becausebecause
JOE KORT (09:23):
it counts for everything, right? It's out, of
course, and inner cores andanything, right? Yes,
absolutely, all right. So youdescribe sex as an incentive
motivation system. What doesthis mean? Yeah.
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (09:34):
So I get this from Emily nagaski. So if
you're not familiar anyone outthere, Emily nagoski wrote, come
as you are, which I think is oneof the most important books for
anybody to read, regardless ofyour sex, because it gives so
much needed research andinformation about AFAB assigned
female at birth, bodies and howthey operate. So she and I'm
(09:55):
just going to read it because Idon't want to mess it up. So she
says an incentive most.
Innovation system means that aperson is being pulled by an
attractive external stimulusinstead of driven by an
uncomfortable internalexperience, like hunger, hunger
or thirst. So if you think aboutlike someone might be like, see
something sexually stimulating,they think about something
(10:18):
sexually stimulating or it'sit's more external to them than
feeling like your stomach rumbleor your throat parched, where
that is uncomfortable and youwant to alleviate that. So sex
is more about going towardssomething pleasurable, rather
than doing something to avoidsomething uncomfortable. Does
that make sense?
JOE KORT (10:42):
Oh, yeah. All right, thanks for clearing that up. So
what about you say also thatwhen you talk with couples about
sex not being a drive, ittypically is because of male
patriarchy symptoms system likemale patriarchy systems that
assert that a man's sexualdesire is the woman's
responsibility. Will you talkabout this? Too?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (11:02):
Sure. So again, this isn't exclusive to
heterosexual relationships.
However, it is seen often inheterosexual relationships,
partly because we do live in apatriarchal society, and often
religious systems elevate thepatriarchy to view the man as
kind of the most importantentity, and women are very often
(11:23):
in these societies taught thatsex is not for them, if the end
that they're not even sexual. Idon't know how many clients I
work with, how many women thatI've worked with with who have
been told, don't worry aboutsex. It's not for you. You're
not It's not normal to want sexif you do like there's something
(11:44):
really wrong with you. It's whenthey get, you know, slut shamed
a lot. It's purity, purityculture, myth and things. And so
they may grow up learning anykind of sexual desire that they
may have, whether it'sresponsive or spontaneous, is
wrong or deviant or evil, orthat they just don't even
(12:04):
acknowledge it. And so when theyhave sex with their partner,
they it's just, really just forthem, and it's their job. It's
their obligation, whetherthey're, you know, willing or
not. This is what you do foryour husband. And so what
perpetuates that is if, ifpeople believe it is a drive,
(12:25):
then they may feel like, well,this is a need I have, and so I
need it to live. And you can'tdeny me that what I need to
live, right? And so they maythen be more manipulative or
coercive or outright abusive totheir partner, because they
don't know that it's not adrive, and they they truly
(12:46):
believe that they'll be harmed,or their harm will come to them
if they don't have sex. Or theycan say like, well, you owe me,
because I need this, and thatcan be incredibly problematic.
JOE KORT (13:02):
Yep, I see the same thing in my office. I'm sure you
do too, and then that's whyyou're talking about this. You
know about this? How does thisplay out differently? Or does it
play out differently with LGBTQcouples?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (13:12):
I think it still plays out. It may play out
a little bit differently in notso much of like gender roles,
but when we see desirediscrepancy in couples where one
person has a has more interestin sex or wants to have sex more
often than their partner, thenbeing able to come together and
(13:36):
cooperate to negotiate what thatlooks like the person who wants
to have sex more often may lookto their partner and say, You
just You owe me. I'm you areresponsible for my pleasure, and
they may require or really pushfor that, especially in
situations where people don'tbelieve in masturbation, where
(13:59):
they don't believe inexperiencing pleasure for
themselves, they may really lookto their partner for that kind
of of outlet. But in LGBTQ, Ithink it's mostly when there's
desire discrepancy that we wouldsee that happening, maybe less
so than with a gendered as forgendered reasons,
JOE KORT (14:19):
yep, yep. And what I noticed from the gay male
couples is when there's adesired discrepancy, we just say
to each other, then go find itsomewhere else. Go get your
rocks off and come back to me,as long as I'm your primary. Not
all gay couples, male couples,but often, right?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (14:33):
Yeah, and that, and that is often not
negotiated in heterosexualcouples. No at all where that
could be a really valuableoption, but when the higher
desire couple like and how eachperson views their partner,
right? So the person with lowerdesire may view their partner as
(14:55):
hyper sexualized, a sex addict,which we know is not a thing.
Mean and have a problem, and thehigher drive, sorry, see, I even
say it language, yeah, well, Imean, it's colloquial. I mean
it's okay, it's okay to say it,as long as we know it's not
(15:17):
real, like it's not, it's not,you know, because we're gonna
say it. There are things that wesay that we don't mean all the
time. The a great example thateven Emily Noah ski uses in her
book is it's like an atheistsaying, Thank God. It doesn't
mean anything you know. So Ithink it's okay to say as long
as like in our minds, we'relike, okay, I know it's not a
drive, but what I was saying forthe person who experiences lower
(15:42):
desire, or excuse me, the personwho experiences higher desire,
they may view their partner whohas lower desire as cold,
frigid, withholding andsomething wrong with them,
right? And oftentimes, coupleswill come to therapy and say,
fix my partner. My partner wantstoo much sex. My partner doesn't
(16:03):
want sex enough. There'ssomething wrong with them
because they're different thanme. Fix them,
JOE KORT (16:10):
which leads me to the next question is, how do you
deal with that in your practice?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (16:15):
Yeah, I think through education, really,
really being able to explorewith them. What I just talked
about with you, about thedifference between spontaneous
desire, responsive desire,normalizing that, that they're
both normal and they're bothokay, and that there's not a set
amount of desire that is normalfor a human being because we're
(16:38):
so varied, and also being ableto communicate about their wants
and needs. And we know couplesdon't do this very well before
they get married. We don't teachgood sex ed in school, so we
don't know about pleasure. Wedon't talk about before somebody
gets married, or don't even haveto be married, but just
negotiating the relationshipearly on of like, what is what
(17:00):
do you want sex to look like? Soreally being able to communicate
about desires and wants, a lotof times I hear women like I
mentioned before, they don'tknow what pleasure, what they
experience, is pleasurable,because they've never really
explored for themselves. Theyhaven't felt like they've given
themselves permission. Nobodyelse has given them permission
to be sexual beings and soreally encouraging folks within
(17:25):
the couple to explore their ownpleasure, because we are
responsible for our ownpleasure, and that's what I
teach clients, too. It's not mypartner's job to make me feel
good, because there's so manyfactors that can get in the way.
I mean, we could talk about thisfor hours. It's my it's my job
to help to do things and ask forthings that feel good to me. So
(17:48):
really, being able to talk tocouples about what feels good to
them, and trying things out, andthen if they need to make
different arrangements in therelationship, like, how do they
feel about if their partnersays, You know what? Oh, you
know what? Oh, you don't want tohave sex tonight. Cool. I'm
gonna go masturbate. Or maybethey negotiate an open
relationship where somebody getsa sexual need met, or desire met
(18:11):
outside of the relationship withconsent, with, you know,
agreement in the couple. But itreally depends on what they're
looking for and kind of what thedynamic is. So
JOE KORT (18:21):
I'm going to throw something your way, and want to
get your thoughts on this,because I see this a lot in my
practice. I'm sure you do too.
So he might in many mixed gendercouples, he might say, okay, you
don't want sex, that's great.
I'm going to go masturbate. I'mgoing to look at an Instagram
account. I'm going to look atsome erotic imagery. And she's
not okay with that. Nope, nope.
Not at all. Now that's cheatingon me, so I'm not, I'm not going
to be able to satisfy you, butyou can't satisfy yourself
(18:44):
either, especially in that way.
What do you do?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (18:50):
I empathize a lot with, you know,
and we really talk about, I liketo really hear from her where
that's coming from. You know,what she's believing about that,
because there's something goingon for her that is that she's
struggling with right, thatshe's that she's viewing it as
cheating, or that she isimagining that he wants that
(19:11):
whatever he's viewing more thanhe wants her. And so I really am
normalize how the value ofmasturbation and how different
it is from partnered sex, how itit does different things for us,
like that. Didn't put that verywell, how it accomplishes
different goals than partneredsex. And then we talk about
(19:33):
bodily autonomy, and we talkabout how we don't get to tell
our partner what to do withtheir own body. And we talk
about, like, really being ableto communicate about those
needs, and where do you give soI'm hearing you say that sex is
not available for you, know, foryou, and masturbation is not
(19:54):
available for him. Where's thecooperation? Because that's not
like, how are you. Negotiatingthat in a way that feels okay to
both you we're not going to geteverything that we want, because
that's not realistic inpartnership. But where is that
that give? But it really comesdown to really addressing the
(20:14):
fears that maybe the one partnerhas about you know that might be
unrealistic or can be dispelledabout masturbation and poor
news.
JOE KORT (20:25):
I like what I thank you for this. That's helpful. I
remember hearing this thatsomebody say, Well, I'm we're in
a desire discrepancyrelationship, which, by the way,
most couples are. One wants itmore than the other, and it can
be at different extremes. Andthen you could go to another
relationship, you could say,well, this isn't working out for
me, and then you might be thehigher one in this relationship,
but the lower one in the nextrelationship, because you may be
(20:47):
with somebody who has a higherdesire, right?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAN (20:49):
Absolutely, it's all about perspective. It's
about how you are comparingyourself to somebody else. And
it is, you're right. It's verydifficult to find people
together that have very similardesire levels because we're all
so varied, and if you can talkabout that early on, if you can
(21:09):
experience sex early on in therelationship, research shows
that having sex before marriageis really helpful to the
relationship. If you can talkabout all of that openly, you
might be able to deal with someof the pitfalls, or decide you
get to a point of like, okay,maybe this relationship just
isn't for me.
JOE KORT (21:30):
I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on partners
sometimes having to be able tosay no before they can say yes,
yeah.
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (21:38):
So something I didn't talk too much
about is also what happens whensome when it is believed that
sex is a drive and one of thepartners may be coercive or
manipulative like you owe thisto me. I need this a lot of
times, the partner does not knowhow to say, no. They don't know
(21:59):
because they haven't been taughtabout bodily autonomy, and that
regardless of the relationshipstructure that they get to say
no when it comes to their body.
Does that mean that there aren'ttimes when, if you're willing,
if you're like, maybe I'm notreally feeling it, but maybe
I'll get into it, like we talkedabout earlier, that I could, we
could start to do some things,and if I feel like I want to
(22:22):
keep going, then I will. Theydon't know that they get to do
that. And so oftentimes when Italk to to I hear this like
people pleasing. And so I'll doa somatic exercise with them,
where I say, every time I sayyes. I want you to say no and
I'll say yes in a lot ofdifferent ways, and their only
(22:47):
job is to say no every time Isay yes. And you would be amazed
at how difficult and howcathartic that exercise is,
because they learn, wow, I don'treally say no anywhere in my
life. I get taken advantage of.
I'm a people pleaser. I youknow, again, Emily nagaski talks
(23:07):
about human giver syndrome, youknow, I and it's often women.
It's not always women, butoften. And so just helping them
learn to say no in small waysreally helps them then be able
to say, yes, I want this. So forfor clients, where desire
discrepancy is a big part of theissue, I take ask them to take
(23:30):
sex off the table for a periodof time completely so that
there's no question. They canflirt, they can engage in other
types of intimacy, and theydon't even have to be stressed
with oh gosh, is this going tolead to sex until they're ready
to be able to reintegrate thatand helping her be able to say,
(23:53):
No, I don't want to do that, andI'm willing to do this is really
empowering and powerful for therelationship
JOE KORT (24:02):
I love this. How is it somatic experiences,
experiencing when it's a no,yes, back and forth. Can you
explain that?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (24:09):
Yeah, so it's it's really interesting,
just really being, encouragingsomebody to listen to their
body, what they're experiencing,and if I say in a variety of
different ways. Like, just theword yes and you have to say no,
just saying it, they start tofeel things in their body. If
(24:30):
it's not something that they'reused to doing or they're
comfortable doing, they might.
I've had so many people cry notbe able to do it. Like, just
flat out refuse. And like, Nope,I can't say no, because there's
just this feeling, this veryreal feeling of, I'm going to
get in trouble, or it won't, itwill be rejected, or it won't be
respected. And a lot of thatgoes back to trauma and
experiences that they've hadearlier in their lives. And so
(24:53):
it's really about what is goingon in your body? What are you
What are you feeling? And whereso in sex therapy, I do a lot of
somatic sensing to help,especially when people have had
trauma and they have not beenable to trust, you know, their
body's response, really beingable to work towards trusting
that response. And we're gettingkind of off track on that, but
(25:16):
it's all related.
JOE KORT (25:19):
No, it's very good.
What else would you want to sayabout desire versus drive and
what people need to hear aboutall that?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (25:28):
Yeah, I think mainly empowering,
primarily women to know thatthey are not responsible for
their partner's pleasure, butanyone just to know that you are
not responsible for yourpartner's pleasure, and that you
get to ask for the type ofpleasure or the type of thing
that feels good to you, thathelps create pleasure for you,
(25:50):
and that however you experiencepleasure is normal, and whether
that's responsive orspontaneous, whether it's, you
know, using a vibrator or Not,whether it's through penetration
or not. You know whether it'sjust feeling excited when you
hear somebody whisper, I mean,all the things just really
(26:10):
trying to take the taboo out ofhow someone experiences what is
just true for them that theyexperience.
JOE KORT (26:18):
Doesn't it turn out that as sex therapist. That's
what we primarily do, is helppeople understand, as long as
it's consensual between twoadults, nothing. There's nothing
wrong with what you're doing.
That's the hardest thing peopleto
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (26:29):
learn, yeah, yeah. But when they get
that, oh my gosh, the freedom inthat. I love it. Yes, I just I
love seeing their eyes light up,especially when we talk about
normalizing masturbation or useof erotica or porn and things
like that, saying there'snothing wrong with you that's
normal, that that would turn youon.
JOE KORT (26:47):
Yes, yeah, just like it, I get turned on. Hung but
with hunger, watching somebodyeat online,
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (26:54):
yeah?
Which is crazy to me, Joe. I'mjust kidding
JOE KORT (27:00):
me too. When I first started, I was like, I kind of
like I kind of like this.
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (27:03):
But you know, what's even crazier is I
love watching animals eat, justand watching people eat, but I
love the sound and sight ofanimals eating. Like, oh, wow,
yeah. So there you go. We'redifferent.
JOE KORT (27:16):
That's another podcast we can do maybe. All right, so
how can people find you on theinternet?
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (27:24):
Um, yeah, so I'm, I am not like a big
social media person tool forthat, even though I'm younger
than you. Oh, sorry, I just soprimarily, I mean, I have a
very, very, very small presenceon social media, so email is
absolutely the best way ofgetting a hold of me. Adrian
Roland, 60 eight@gmail.com andI'll respond so but yeah, that's
(27:49):
probably the best way, because Idon't like to answer the phone,
but I will respond to emailsvery readily, right?
JOE KORT (27:55):
Alright, and they can find you also on the a sec
American Association for sexeducators, counselors and
therapists.org,
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (28:01):
yes, that and I'm on Psychology Today,
also, just look me up that way.
Yeah, right.
JOE KORT (28:08):
Well, it's been a pleasure having you on my show.
It's been a pleasure having youas my student now, my colleague
and I'm people need to hear whatyou have to say, so I'm glad
that we have a forum for it
DR. ADRIENNE ROWLAND (28:17):
now. I appreciate it so much. It's been
a lot of fun,
JOE KORT (28:21):
all right, and those of you that are listening, you
can hear my podcast at Smartsex, smart love.com you can also
follow me on Tiktok, Twitter,Instagram, Facebook. My handle
is at Dr. Joe court, D, R, J, o,e, K, O, R T. You can also go to
my website. Joe court.com thanksfor listening until next time,
(28:42):
be safe and stay healthy. You.
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