Dr. Alexander "Sasha" Shulgin: Psychedelic Pioneer

Send us a text

Arpita is back with another story in the series on psychedelics. MDMA has an interesting history, but could it have a future in mental health treatment as well? 

For more information and sources for this episode, visit https://www.smartteapodcast.com.

Episode Transcript

Aarati (00:10):
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Smart Tea
Podcast, where we talk about thelives of scientists and
innovators who shape the world.
How are you, Arpita?

Arpita (00:19):
I am doing better now.
Aarati and I just spent 30minutes trying to figure out
some really dumb tech issues.
Uh, we've had some issues withmy mic for a few sessions now,
and I just went down a Redditrabbit hole trying to see what
the problem was.

(00:39):
It was like, not really Googleable.
For some reason, my computerdoesn't recognize my mic.
And then I just had this thoughtwhere I was like, I wonder if I
just switch the cord.
Like, I just used a differentUSB cord from the back of my
drawer.

Aarati (00:53):
The brand new cord that came with the microphone should
work.
And we, are assuming that it'sbrand new, so it should be
working, but why not switch thatout and see how it goes?

Arpita (01:05):
Yeah.
I just, I don't know why I justhad this like random thought and
I was like, I like, I tried allthe other variables and I was
like, maybe I'll just switch theactual cord out from something
random in the back of my deskdrawer.
And it now seems to be working.
And then.
You said, this is where you quitexperimental biology?

Aarati (01:25):
Yes, this is literally what made me so frustrated
because I remember for, like, Iwas, I was doing this
experiment.
I was trying to replicatestandard results that were seen
in my field.
Like every paper was like, thisis, this is like our baseline.
And so I was trying to replicatethat baseline that's in multiple
papers.

(01:45):
And I couldn't figure out why Iwasn't.
You know, getting it and it wasso frustrating.
I was changing everything.
I was changing like the strainof worms that I was using.
I was changing the type of foodthat they were eating.
I was changing, like, you know,I was getting, uh, worms from
other labs, like maybe theirworms will work.

(02:07):
I was doing all sorts of things.
People were saying, put papertowels inside, like the bin,
because maybe they're like dryand they need the humidity or
something.
And then it turned out that theincubator that they were in was
two degrees off.
So instead of being at 20degrees, they were actually like
at 22 degrees Celsius.

(02:29):
And...

Arpita (02:30):
And then they just killed them?

Aarati (02:31):
It just like, it was too hot for them apparently.
And they weren't dying, but theywere just like not behaving the
way that I thought they shouldbehave.
And then, so I changed theincubator so that the readout on
the incubator actually said 18degrees.
But then when I stuck a likeexternal thermometer in there,
It read 20 degrees andeverything was perfect.

(02:52):
Everything was beautiful.
And I'm like, it literally tookme six months to figure that.
And I was so fuming mad andeveryone around me was just
like, Oh, well, aren't you gladthat you figured it out?
You must feel so likeaccomplished.
And I'm like, six months,

Arpita (03:09):
I doesn't feel like an accomplishment at all.
It actually so defeating.
It

Aarati (03:13):
Yeah.
And they were like, well, that'show biology is.
And I'm like, in that case, I'mnot sure I want to do this.

Arpita (03:23):
I, it's like, I don't think that made me feel good
either though.
I think it, like, it's not thatit makes you feel dumb
necessarily, because it's, youdid.
You know, work really hard tofigure out the solution, but
when the solution is thatmundane it just makes you
question sanity.

Aarati (03:41):
Why would I not trust the readout that's on, on the
actual machine, like on theactual incubator, it's saying 20
degrees Celsius and I believeit.
I'm like, thinking there must besomething wrong with my worms.
My worms are crazy becausethey're not behaving, they're
like, I'm the crazy one, I'm,I'm treating them badly and
that's why they're not behaving.

(04:02):
I'm doing something, you know,I'm not feeding them the right
food or I'm not, Oh, it's sofrustrating, but yeah,

Arpita (04:08):
how many variables can you possibly go through?
You know, like, you think abouttoo hard, there's everything's a
variable.

Aarati (04:14):
Yeah, and people, like, we couldn't wear perfumes, and I
think I mentioned this, like, inone of our first episodes, I
couldn't wear perfumes or strongsmelling soaps because we were
afraid it would mess with theworms, like, sensory systems and
things like that, and

Arpita (04:30):
Like, do I change my shampoo now?
Like, what am I?

Aarati (04:32):
like Did somebody walk by here with perfume Like, yeah.
So it was, it, this, thissituation of just change out the
new brand new wire that camewith your microphone.
Change that for the ratty onethat you probably had in the
back of your

Arpita (04:47):
Literally ratty.

Aarati (04:48):
Yeah.
Oh, guess what?
I was in San Francisco just thispast weekend, for Outside Lands.
So I

Arpita (04:55):
Oh, fun.

Aarati (04:56):
neck of the woods, yeah, it

Arpita (04:58):
How was it?

Aarati (04:59):
It was, it was fun.
Like, I couldn't go to, I didn'tgo to a lot of the shows because
I was with my friends and theyhave this really small baby.
So everything was likepredicated on the baby's mood,
you know, like,

Arpita (05:12):
Taking a baby to outside land seems ambitious, so

Aarati (05:15):
I know, right.
But he had these like cute.
Bright blue headphones that hewas wearing so like like noise
cancelling headphones so that itdidn't get too loud for him But
it was like super adorable.
He loves to dance.
So like when he was in a goodmood He's like this pumping to
the music.
It was really great.

Arpita (05:33):
really cute.
That sounds very fun.
Um, it was very cold.
Did you go all three days?

Aarati (05:39):
No, we just went on Saturday and just like in the
afternoon for a bit.
Yeah, but I always forget howcold San Francisco is.
Like, after I left and I moveddown south of San Francisco,
every time I go back to thatarea, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's
perpetually foggy.
It's perpetually cold.

Arpita (05:59):
Especially this time of year too, like the summer months
is like very, very foggy.
Andit's, it's Yeah, last weekendin particular, I feel like was
particularly cold, so I'm gladyou had fun.

Aarati (06:10):
Yeah, it was.
It was a lot of fun.
And we were dancing.
So that kept us warm, too.
But, Anyway, little,

Arpita (06:17):
so fun.

Aarati (06:18):
little side note, but your story happens in San
Francisco?

Arpita (06:22):
Yes, it happens in San Francisco.
Um, and it happens in the Bayarea.
So I think it'll be kind of funto talk about some of these
places that are familiar to us.

Aarati (06:31):
Yeah.

Arpita (06:32):
So our story today is about Alexander, he went by
"Sasha", Shulgin.
Um, and this is another episodein my series about psychedelics

Aarati (06:45):
Oh, fun.

Arpita (06:46):
So Alexander"Sasha" Shulgin is known as the
godfather of MDMA.
And the reason that I chose thisepisode is that just this week,
the FDA was debating whether ornot to approve a new drug
application from apharmaceutical company to decide

(07:10):
whether MDMA would be allowed tobe used therapeutically for
people with This is the firsttime that something like this
has happened for a psychedelicand a new drug application for
people who don't know is areally big deal.
It means the company, thepharmaceutical company that has
taken time to develop thismolecule has undergone a ton of

(07:34):
safety studies and early stageclinical trials to prove that
this is safe to use and iseffective and more effective
than a placebo, which means thatnow they're able to start
conducting more clinical trials,and now they can be done in
humans.
So they've moved frompreclinical models and animals,

(07:56):
and now they're able to move tohumans.
So it's a really big deal.
So this hasn't happened beforefor psychedelics, and this
happened just this week.
We actually do have the verdict,but I'm going to say that till
the end.

Aarati (08:07):
Oh, okay.
Exciting.
Because I know you werementioning that last time, too,
with the LSD episode, you werethat, they were thinking that it
might have some sort of promisefor, I think, depression and
anxiety and everything kind ofgot shut down by the government
before a lot of that kind oftesting could happen.
And now research is veryrestricted.

(08:28):
So this is exciting.
Maybe this MDMA study could opensome doors to other psychedelics
and other mental healthtreatments.

Arpita (08:37):
Exactly, exactly.
And, um, we, we will totally getinto this in more detail in the
episode, but the researchreached a peak in, you know, the
first half of the 1900s that itgot shut down, during kind of
the Nixon Reaganadministrations.
And then it is now recently likein the last like five years or

(08:57):
so seen a resurgence and moreclinical trials are out.
So it really has this like newrise in popularity and also in,
general scientific interest.
And a lot of this research isactually happening between, Cal
Berkeley and UCSF.
And so this is reallyinteresting too, given that we
both have ties to San Franciscoand this was happening in our

(09:20):
backyard.
Okay.
So let's dive in.
Sasha Shulgin was born on June17th, 1925 in Berkeley, to
Theodore Stevens and HenriettaShulgin.
His father was Russian and hismom was born and raised in
Illinois.
Um, so he's half Russian,Russian American, and both his

(09:41):
parents were teachers.
Um, I really couldn't find a tonabout his childhood.
all the biopics and all of thebiographies.
Um, he also even wrote a book.
Um, all of these things likedidn't really talk very much
about his childhood.
It kind of picks up a lot laterin his twenties.

(10:01):
So, This is what I know.
Like most of the scientistswe've covered, he's a really
smart kid.
He went to Harvard on a fullscholarship and he started
studying organic chemistry.
But once he got there, herealized that college wasn't
really working for him.
And he dropped out to join theNavy when he was 19.
And while he was serving on aship called the USS Pope, during

(10:24):
the very end of World War II, hegot an infection in his thumb
and he had to have surgery.
So right before the surgery, anurse gave him a glass of orange
juice and he drank the orangejuice.
And then when he got to the verybottom of the glass, he saw that
there was like a little bit ofpowder in the bottom of the
glass.
And then he drank it, assumingthat the nurse had put some sort

(10:45):
of sedative in his drink and hefell asleep rapidly.
But then he woke up and herealized that the powder in the
bottom of his drink was actuallyjust the undissolved sugar from
his orange juice.
And then this made him realizethat placebo is a very, very
powerful effect, and he startedthinking about what this meant

(11:07):
in terms of like what your mindis capable of and the things
beyond just like what you wouldthink of for medicine.
So he credits this in a lot ofinterviews and even his own
memoir.
for where he first started tothink about how much you could
expand your mind and what yourmind is really capable.

Aarati (11:26):
Yeah.
I mean, that's why we have somany control groups and clinical
trials as well, right?
Just to make sure that this isnot a placebo effect that you're
going through.
This is actually the drugworking.

Arpita (11:38):
Right.
And then to show that the drugis actually stronger than the
placebo effect.
So people get either the placeboor the trial drug, and it is to
demonstrate that the effect ismore powerful than placebo.
The placebo knowing that peoplearen't going to know which one
they get.

Aarati (11:58):
But it's kind of crazy, like how powerful your mind is
just thinking that maybe you hadsome medication or treatment can
actually affect your physiology.
I would be fascinated by thattoo.

Arpita (12:10):
And he like experienced it firsthand too, which is
really interesting at a reallyyoung age.
So this does influence a lot ofhis work.
So after he served in the Navy,he went back to Berkeley and he
went back to school.
Around this time in 1948, he metand married a woman named Nina
Gordon.
And a year later they had a sonnamed Theodore Alexander.

(12:33):
Don't know anything about Nina.
She...

Aarati (12:36):
She just randomly pops up.

Arpita (12:38):
exist Yeah, she, yes, literally, she barely exists.
I don't know anything aboutNina.
If anyone listening knows moreabout Nina Gordon, please tell
me.
I really tried.

Aarati (12:50):
Yeah.
Fair enough.
I mean, this is, this issomething that happens, I think,
quite a lot when researchingthese stories is like, a lot of
these scientists, their livesseem to start at college and
then If you find anything abouttheir family, it's like, by the
way, they were married and theyhad a kid and that's, that's all
you hear.
Yeah.
So, I appreciate you for tryingthough.

Arpita (13:11):
Yeah.
So Nina exists somehow.
Um, and shout out to Nina.
So we're back at Cal.
He earns his bachelor's degreeand then he goes on to pursue a
PhD in biochemistry and hegraduates in 1954.
And then after this, hecompletes post doc work in
psychiatry and pharmacology atthe University of California,

(13:33):
San Francisco.

Aarati (13:34):
Oh, cool.

Arpita (13:36):
This is where the story gets interesting.
So after his postdoc, he worksbriefly at a research scientist
at another company called BioRad, and then he moves to the
Dow Chemical Company.
I think still exists today.

Aarati (13:49):
Bio Rad also exists still.
Is it like, yeah, isn't it?

Arpita (13:54):
Oh Dow does exist.
Dow's in Hayward.

Aarati (13:57):
Dow's in Hayward, really?
Oh my gosh.
That's right across the bay fromme.

Arpita (14:03):
I know.
Dow's in Hayward.
Um, it looks like Dow makes aton of different chemical
agents, like water clarifiers,adhesives, construction
materials, I don't know, justlike a bunch of stuff.

Aarati (14:22):
Okay.

Arpita (14:23):
And Bio Rad also exists, you said?

Aarati (14:25):
Yeah, Biorad, I've seen their logo before, I think on
like certain machines or likebiology kits, like PCR kits and
things like that.

Arpita (14:35):
Yep.
That's exactly right.
You're right.
Clinical diagnostics and lifescience research.

Aarati (14:39):
Yep.

Arpita (14:40):
Great.
Okay.
So, anyway, so now he's at Dow.

Aarati (14:43):
Mm hmm.

Arpita (14:44):
And at Dow, he is put to work on synthesizing pesticides.
And one of the things that hedevelops is called Zectran, and
it's the world's firstbiodegradable pesticide.
And so it doesn't seep into thesoil, it doesn't stay there, it
degrades.
So it actually is really, reallybeneficial to farmers, and
people are very excited aboutthis.

Aarati (15:05):
Cool.

Arpita (15:06):
So Zectran generates Dow.
So much money and so muchrevenue that they gave him his
name on his patent.
He got the money from the patentand they were like, honestly,
like do whatever you want.
We don't even care.
Like you can study or researchwhatever you want.
So they gave him free reign topursue any of his own interests

(15:26):
and research what he wanted.

Aarati (15:28):
Wow, amazing.
So they just realized wow,you're brilliant We're not going
to place any constraints on yougo forth and pursue your
passions.

Arpita (15:37):
That is 100 percent what they said.
So this was the same time in thelate 1950s where Sasha had his
first psychedelic experience.
So he'd already been prettyinterested in the chemistry of
mescaline, which is the activeingredient in peyote.
And one day he was like, youknow what, I'm just going to try
it.
So he had a few friends watchhim and keep an eye on him while

(16:01):
he tried it himself.
And he spent the afternoon, justlike outside having a great
time.
And he wrote in his journal thathe realized that everything he
saw and thought quote,"had beenbrought about by a fraction of a
gram of a white solid, but thatin no way whatsoever, could it
be argued that these memorieshad been contained within the

(16:23):
white solid.
I understood that our entireuniverse is contained in the
mind and the spirit.
We may choose not to find accessto it.
We may even deny its existence,but it is indeed there inside us
and there are chemicals that cancatalyze its availability." And
he said, quote,"I learned therewas a great deal inside of me."
So he's thinking aboutpsychedelics really as this,

(16:46):
almost like this portal intothis extra, like he's able to
like a level up in his mind.
Like he's using it as this wayto learn about himself, to learn
about the world around him.

Aarati (16:57):
Mm-hmm.

Arpita (16:58):
Which is a little bit different than the way we would
think about recreational drugs,which we'll get into a little
bit later, but, his purposeisn't to do it like, as a fun
game, his purpose is really tounderstand himself and the world
around him better.
He's really thinking about it asthis tool to be able to, like,
access this deeper level withinhimself.
Which is an interestingperspective.

Aarati (17:19):
And that is a lot like what Albert Hoffman was doing
with LSD as well, he was usingit as this tool to unlock a
higher plane of experience, Iguess?
it sounds like both of them areon that same level.

Arpita (17:35):
There's a lot of similarities between their two
stories.

Aarati (17:38):
Did they know about each other?
Do you know?
I feel like they must have.

Arpita (17:42):
I'm sure they must have like come across you.
They also like we're around thesame time period.
Hoffman was a little earlier,but not by that much.
They definitely would have beencontemporaries.
I didn't really see anythingwhere they're like, work
together or met, but I'm, I'msure they knew of each other.

Aarati (17:56):
Yeah, probably.
At least read each other'spapers,

Arpita (18:00):
Exactly.

Aarati (18:01):
other's

Arpita (18:02):
Exactly.
Exactly.
So now that he's had thisexperience with the mescaline,
at Dow, he starts exploringpsychedelic compounds, and Dow
remained true to its word andlet him experiment in the
laboratory and patented any ofthe compounds he developed.
The ones that Dow decided not topatent, he published in journals

(18:23):
like Nature and the Journal ofOrganic Chemistry.
And as he was, you know,tinkering around with these
psychedelic compounds, he becamevery fascinated by what he
called the magic four position,which is the fourth carbon in a
benzene ring.
So, for those of you who don'tknow, a benzene ring is a carbon
ring, so it's six carbons boundtogether by single and double

(18:45):
bonds into a hexagon shape,basically.
Um, and each of these carbonshas a specific position.
There's a one carbon, a twocarbon, so forth and so on.
And the fourth carbon, herealized in this ring, the
compounds attached to thislocation could be manipulated to
create variations in the phenylethylamine drug class.

(19:09):
So he realized that there wasjust like this one carbon where
he's tinkering with thecompounds that are attached
there can give him manydifferent variations of the same
compound within this drug class.

Aarati (19:20):
Okay.
And it's that specific carbon.
It has to be the fourth one forsome reason.
It's the magic position.

Arpita (19:26):
I think he was also just interested in this.
I think he was like messing withit and was realizing that he was
getting a lot of success bytinkering in this one spot and
so I probably where this camefrom.
I don't know that that carbonactually held special
properties.
I think it was just an interestof his and he like focused his
attention on, you know,methylating, demethylating, like

(19:47):
whatever that specific carbon.

Aarati (19:49):
Right, that makes sense.

Arpita (19:50):
I mean, the reason he was interested in this magic
position was when he synthesizedthe compound DOM, which he
bioassayed on January 4th, 1964.
And he discovered that it wasvery very potent.
So it was psychoactive at theone milligram dose, and up until
then, phenylethamine as a drugclass hadn't produced effects at

(20:14):
such a low dose.
So he got interested in thismagic four position because of
this particular drug.
And then he was like, I wonderwhat else I could come up with
based on this magic fourposition.

Aarati (20:25):
I see.
Does DOM stand for something?
Like some long, long chemicalname, probably?

Arpita (20:31):
2,5- dimethoxy 4 methylphetamine.

Aarati (20:37):
Nice.
Okay.

Arpita (20:38):
Nailed it.

Aarati (20:39):
Yeah, super enlightening.
I know everything now.
I understood it perfectly.

Arpita (20:45):
It's DOM.

Aarati (20:46):
Yeah, it's DOM.
Okay.
Got it.
And it's a super, super potentversion of this, amphetamine.

Arpita (20:52):
Yes, yes.
very very super potent.
So he's working on all thesepsychedelics at Dow and
eventually Dow decides that theydon't really want to support
this work.
They're like, I think a littlebit, a little too far off the

Aarati (21:07):
Uh, yeah, this is a little bit, uh, risky.
No, thank you.

Arpita (21:12):
Exactly.
And so they were like, we wouldlike you to stop using our
company's name in yourpublications.
And Sasha knew that DOM hadpotential because he's really
hyper fixated on this Magic 4Position and that other forms of
the drug might be possible if hecould tinker with this molecular
structure.
So in 1965, just a year after hesynthesized DOM, he left Dow,

(21:38):
and he went to go work in alaboratory that he constructed
behind his house, and he calledthis laboratory,"The Farm".
So at this point, he lives onthe large property in Lafayette,
which is east of Berkeley, justoutside of San Francisco, and he
sets up this, like, homelaboratory, basically.
And so now he's, uh, Quote,unquote freelancer, and he is a

(22:01):
scientist working out of hishouse.
And he starts teaching classesat San Francisco State
University, UCSF, and SanFrancisco General Hospital.
And so while he's teaching, hemeets a man named Bob Sager, who
is the head of the U.
S.
Drug Enforcement Agency.
And Sasha starts to holdpharmacology seminars for DEA

(22:24):
agents, and he starts supplyingthe DEA with samples of
compounds that he develops, andsometimes even is serving as an
expert witness in court.
And then later, many yearslater, he authors a definitive
law enforcement reference bookon controlled substances, like
he's really supportive of theDEA, even though he's working on

(22:45):
all these substances that are,you know, not legal.

Aarati (22:49):
But I can see that.
It's, it's almost like thosecriminals that kind of go to
work for the FBI at some point,so you have insider knowledge of
how these things work, and ifyou're willing to flip and work
for the good guys, then, yeahalthough in this case, he didn't
flip, but...

Arpita (23:03):
Yeah, like, I know it is interesting.
Um, we'll get into it also alittle bit later in the story,
but it is interesting, like thelegality of what he's doing,
because he's coming up withthese compounds, right?
So he is developing them.
Um,

Aarati (23:17):
In his

Arpita_Shulgin_final (23:18):
and

Arpita (23:19):
On his Farm, actually

Aarati (23:20):
Farm, uh, on his farm in the backyard.

Arpita (23:24):
Yes, uh, in his full fledged lab,

Aarati (23:27):
Yeah.
I was wondering about that too.
I was like, um, he's workingwith the DEA, but he has like a
lab on his property.
Like, is that allowed?

Arpita (23:36):
Ok actually let me just read this next paragraph.
So in order to work withscheduled psychoactive
chemicals, Sasha needed aspecial license.
Um, so this is actually true foranybody, regardless of whether
they're working in a lab intheir shed or if they're
working, you know, in a lab atlike an academic center, you
need a special license in orderto work with any, uh, drugs that

(23:58):
are controlled.
So this would be like Schedule1, 2, 3, 4 drugs or whatever.
And so, He has all these friendsat the DEA, so this wasn't
actually a problem.
So he obtains a Schedule 1license, which is the highest
controlled substance license,and he is allowed to legally
synthesize and possess any ofthese illicit drugs because he's
doing it for research purposes.

(24:20):
And so that's what he ends updoing, is he ends up
synthesizing, testing all ofthese potentially psychoactive
drugs.
But back to what I was sayingpreviously, The legality of this
is interesting because only thethings that are specifically
listed as Scheduled 1 controlledsubstances are illegal, but he

(24:40):
is creating new compounds thathave never been documented
before and they contain and theyhave some of the same properties
that the illegal ones have, forexample, amphetamines.

Aarati (24:52):
Mm hmm.

Arpita (24:53):
And so the DEA actually has a hard time with him because
they're like, how do we.
How do we regulate this?
Like these drugs don't evenexist until you come up with
them.

Aarati (25:05):
Yeah.
then you have to, like, testthem, you don't know what
effects have, if any, you don'tknow how potent they are.
Yeah.

Arpita (25:12):
Right.
So it is kind of like this grayarea that he lives in for sure.

Aarati (25:16):
Mm hmm.

Arpita (25:18):
But he does have the license.
And so this is what he's workingon.
So he is, oh my gosh, a sidestory here.
I didn't write down, but one ofthe, one of my sources when I
was researching this was, a NewYork Times article where the
reporter goes to his home inLafayette and interviews him at
his home.
And he gets a tour of The Farm.

(25:38):
And he has, it's like, Thereporter describes it as exactly
like what you would think aboutin a cartoon or a movie where
it's like a mad scientistlaboratory, like, just a bunch
of things in beakers, like,bubbling around like a big
chalkboard covered in likebenzene rings and like hexagons.

Aarati (25:58):
Amazing.

Arpita (25:59):
Has this like big wooden plank in the corner and he's
like giving this reporter a tourand he was like, yes, I use this
plank to like clear all thecobwebs from this shed that he's
in because he literally in ashed in his garden, he's not in
a lab.
So, like, it's actually quiteliterally what you would think
of as

Aarati (26:18):
The mad scientist.
Yeah.
Like there, there is that trope.
Yeah.
And it has merit.
Oh my gosh.
It's people like him that makeus all...

Arpita (26:28):
yes.

Aarati (26:28):
...all seem crazy.

Arpita (26:30):
And he also is like an eccentric dude.
Like he is Russian American.
He like sort of has this accent.
He has like a big shock of likewhite hair.
He's like always kind of wearsthis beret at like a jaunty
angle.
Like he's kind of what he'sdefinitely a weird dude.
And so like this combined withhis interest in psychedelics
combined with his farmsituation.

(26:51):
It's like he he's like a vibrantcharacter, you know?

Aarati (26:53):
I'm like imagining all the scientists in like Hollywood
movies, like, uh, Robin Williamsin Flubber, or, like, Back to
the Future, like, you know,they're all these scientists
that work in their garage and,like, create these crazy
chemical compounds or timemachines or whatever it is.

Arpita (27:11):
A hundred percent the vibe.
We're also like entering theearly 70s at this point in the
story.
So it's this is the vibe.

Aarati (27:18):
Yeah.

Arpita (27:19):
Okay.
So he is at the farm.
He explores hundreds ofpsychedelic compounds.
He invents a ton and he startscharacterizing their
psychoactivity through his verycareful scientific assays.

Aarati (27:32):
What does that mean?
Like, how do you characterizepsychoactive properties?
Like, does he have mice orsomething?
Like, how, because these areaffecting your mind somehow,
right?

Arpita (27:44):
Yeah, we're, we're, telling this story so out of
order now, but like, I feel likewe're on a roll.
So, no, it's no, no, it's reallyfine.
I, this is good.
Um, he tests them on himself.

Aarati (27:56):
Of course.
Okay.
Of course.
Of course.

Arpita (28:01):
Um,

Aarati (28:01):
Does the DEA know that?

Arpita (28:03):
So.
Okay, so let me read this.
Okay.
we're skipping around, but it'sfine.
Um, so he synthesizes all thesedifferent compounds and he loves
classical music.
And so he's usually listening tolike Prokofiev or Rachmaninoff.
And he is like with his, pipesand bubbling glassware and like
all the things and when he wassatisfied that he invented

(28:26):
something worthwhile, he wouldingest the new chemical first by
deciding on the minimum amountrequired to have an effect and
then takes one one thousandth ofthat dose, gradually increasing
the dose until he felt itseffects.

Aarati (28:40):
Oh my goodness,

Arpita (28:41):
But he did this in a very scientific way.
So after he did all of theseself experiments, he enlisted
this small group of trustedfriends with whom he regularly
shared and also tested hiscreations on.
And they developed this way ofranking the effects of the drugs
known as the Shulgin RatingScale.
And it had a vocabulary todescribe visual, auditory, and

(29:03):
physical sensations.
And he personally testedhundreds of drugs, if not
thousands, mainly analogs ofphenylamines and tryptamines and
just all these like slightchemical variations.
And he categorizes all of theseeffects.
Some of them are pleasant.
Some of them are unpleasant.
They depend on the situation.
They depend on the person.

(29:24):
And this is all just likerecorded in all of his lab
notes.
And he publishes all of these inhis papers.
So to answer your question, hedoes characterize the physical
effects.
He also does stuff likechromatography and stuff, and
it's like understanding thechemical structure of all of
these things, but...

Aarati (29:42):
That makes sense.
But to actually, like, thattakes, I don't know what that
takes.
I don't know if that, it's, Idon't want to call it courage,
but just to take a substancethat you don't know how it's
going to affect you and thenrope your friends into it, too,
like, that requires an enormousamount of trust between your
friends.

Arpita (30:00):
I think based on everything here, I, I hear you.
I agree with you.
I think his perspective wasn'tnecessarily that he was being
brave.
I think it was coming from thesense of he had such a strong
knowledge of this class of drugsthat he was really kind of
seeing himself more of anexplorer than he was like, Oh,
I'm doing something that couldbe potentially dangerous.

(30:21):
Like, I don't think he really

Aarati (30:22):
Like, he had some idea of what it should do because he
knew what the chemical compoundswere and what the chemical
groups were.
And so he had like some theoryof like, if it has these
chemical groups, it shouldprobably interact with my brain
this way or have make thesekinds of effects.
And he had kind of a theory.

Arpita (30:43):
Yes, that is mostly right.
It doesn't really seem like hewas approaching this with, not
necessarily fear, but like,approaching it with, like,
something could go wrong.
I don't think he thought that.

Aarati (30:52):
Mm Yeah.
I would, I don't know.
I'd still be scared.
I'd

Arpita (30:56):
No, a hundred percent.
Yeah, yeah.
no.
a thousand percent.
I am with you.

Aarati (31:01):
Yeah.

Arpita (31:01):
But I don't think that's where his head was at.

Aarati (31:03):
Yeah.
I get that.

Arpita (31:05):
Um, so one of the drugs he synthesized is called MEM.
I'm not going to say it

Aarati (31:10):
Okay.

Arpita (31:11):
drug.
There's

Aarati (31:11):
But it stands for something.

Arpita (31:13):
It stands for something, um, which he called a quote,
"valuable and dramatic compound"that opened the door to a whole
class of drugs that were similarto its chemical structure.
Um, also an amphetamine.
MEM was reported to cause visualdistortions, color enhancement
and pattern movement.
This is just a list of like abunch of his key compounds that

(31:34):
he developed.
So another one is called Aleph 1and this gave him quote,"one of
the most delicious blends ofinflation, paranoia and
selfishness that I've everexperienced."

Aarati (31:44):
I love that description.

Arpita (31:46):
I know.

Aarati (31:47):
A delicious sense of inflation.

Arpita (31:50):
Another, Ariadne was patented and tested as a drug
for restoring the motivation insenile and geriatric patients.
And another one called DIPT,created no visual
hallucinations, but distortedthe user's sense of pitch.
So it was like an auditoryeffect, which is interesting.

Aarati (32:09):
Oh.
Interesting.

Arpita (32:10):
Um, and he was really starting to become one of the
world's foremost drug designers.

Aarati (32:16):
That's an interesting title to have.
A drug designer.

Arpita (32:19):
Okay.
So sidebar here.
Nina dies.

Aarati (32:23):
Oh no.

Arpita (32:23):
She's gone.

Aarati (32:24):
We don't know why.
We don't know how.

Arpita (32:25):
She had a stroke.

Aarati (32:27):
Oh, she, she had a stroke.
We know how.
Okay.
But.
Bye bye Nina.
We

Arpita (32:31):
Nina's dead.
Bye.

Aarati (32:32):
We hardly knew ya.
Yeah.

Arpita (32:35):
I was trying to figure out where to put this in the
story because when I read it itwas like, he married Nina in
like, what is it?
1950 something.
Or 1948.
And then it's like, Nina died ofa stroke in 1977.
Like that was the sentence.
was do I just put it in oneplace?
Like, do I put it later whenactually...happens
chronologically?

Aarati (32:54):
Yeah.
No.
Great.
Okay.
Sounds good.
No, I've had exactly that sameproblem.
I totally feel you.
It's like, what?
We have one sentence about,okay, everything, but he had a
son, right?
So his son is still around.
I'm assuming somewhere.

Arpita (33:10):
is around,the son also dies.

Aarati (33:12):
Okay.
But we don't, we, oh no, really?
Oh my gosh.
Wait, how does the son die?
Do we know?

Arpita (33:21):
Oh, I don't remember how the son died.
It was also like such an aside.
Oh, hold on.
I found his Facebook.

Aarati (33:29):
I think I found it also, it also, um, it looks like he
died in like 2011 or 2012

Arpita (33:38):
He did.
He died in 2011.
Yeah.
Oh, Ted had a stroke and aquadruple bypass and was in the
ICU.

Aarati (33:45):
Oh my gosh.

Arpita (33:46):
Okay, but anyway,

Aarati (33:47):
Okay.
Sorry.
Yeah.
Okay.
But he dies much later.
The, the wife died.
Yeah.
Okay.
So we're, we're now where, like1970s still?

Arpita (33:58):
Yeah, we're at

Aarati (33:58):
1976.
Okay.
Okay.
Nina's gone.

Arpita (34:02):
Okay.
Nina' s gone.
So in 1976, Sasha is introducedto MDMA by a student in a
chemistry group that he advisedat San Francisco State
University.
So MDMA actually wasn't new.
It had been synthesized way backin 1912 by Merck and was
patented in 1913, but it wasn'treally ever explored in its own

(34:25):
right.
Merck didn't really see apurpose.
Again, a lot of parallels toLSD.

Aarati (34:30):
Mm-hmm.

Arpita (34:31):
So at the time a similar amphetamine MDA was dubbed the
mellow drug of America and wasvery popular on the psychedelic
scene.
And the student that Sasha wastalking to mentioned having
heard something about itsmethylated version.
So MDMA is a methylatedamphetamine, MDA is the one that

(34:53):
was currently on the market.

Aarati (34:54):
Okay.

Arpita (34:56):
And so Sasha was interested and first tried 16
milligrams of MDMA and did nothave any noticeable effect.
Um, the usual dose that mostpeople take is somewhere between
75 to 150 milligrams.
So he upped this doseincrementally based on his

(35:16):
protocol that he had, and hereports quote"first awareness at

35 minutes (35:22):
smooth and it was very nice.

45 minutes (35:25):
still developing but I can easily assimilate it as it
comes under excellent control.

50 minutes (35:31):
getting quite deep but I'm keeping a pace".
So he's just like talking aboutthis like rolling high that he
is on.
And he decides that this issomething that's really
interesting, that he wants toexplore a little bit further.
So he develops a synthesismethod for MDMA, which is
different than the one that wehad.
So instead of obtaining the drugitself, he decides to figure out

(35:54):
a way to synthesize it himself.
And later that same year, heintroduces this chemical to a
friend, Leo Zeff, who is apsychologist in Oakland,
California.
And Leo uses the substance inhis practice in small doses to
aid during talk therapy becauseit kind of gives you a little

(36:15):
bit of an out of body, floatysensation.

Aarati (36:18):
Wait, so the psychiatrist is using it or he's
giving it to his patients?

Arpita (36:22):
He's giving it to his patients in tiny amounts during
their talk therapy sessions.

Aarati (36:26):
Interesting.
Okay.

Arpita (36:28):
So Leo starts like evangelizing about this and he
introduces the substance tohundreds of psychologists and
therapists all around the BayArea and the nation, including a
woman named Ann Gotlieb, who metSasha in 1979 and she marries
him.
Yes, this is what I mean.
like, I didn't really...

Aarati (36:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Arpita (36:50):
Ann it's a little bit more important.
So we will hear about Ann littlebit more.
But Ann is a psychologist who isvery interested in psychedelics
and they're now married.

Aarati (36:59):
Oh, perfect.
Match made in heaven.

Arpita (37:01):
Yeah.

Aarati (37:02):
Yeah.

Arpita (37:04):
Also weird lady.
So, you know, they're actuallymaybe

Aarati (37:07):
Okay.
Actually, she was probablythrilled with his Farm.
It's like...
she Wow!"

Arpita (37:11):
Actually was.

Aarati (37:12):
Amazing.
Yeah.
First date night in the farm.

Arpita (37:16):
So I'm like glad they found each other.
Yeah.
So MDMA was really, reallypopular.
Like, as you know, like, youknow, it's known as ecstasy.
It's like a drug that peopleuse, you know, when they're like
partying and like out you know,just like having a good time.
Like it's like a party drug.
Um, but Sasha doesn't actuallyfind his MDMA experience
transformative.
He thought it was just like akind of low alcohol buzz and he

(37:40):
called it his quote low caloriemartini.

Aarati (37:42):
That's cute.

Arpita (37:43):
Um, he did think that it was really interesting.
It's a combination of kind offeeling floaty, intoxicated, but
It also gave you thisdisinhibition.
And it also gave you a sense ofclarity, which is different than
a lot of other psychedelics,because it usually doesn't give
you more clarity.
It usually actually numbs you orgives you a more of a sense of

(38:04):
like out of body experience.
It also doesn't really have asmany visual and auditory changes
that you get in otherpsychedelics.
It opens you up to your innerthoughts and other people, but
it doesn't really give you ahallucinations and it can give
you a sense of clarity.
So he thought this was really,really interesting.
And because of that thought itwould be pretty well suited to

(38:25):
psychotherapy.
So this is like all kind ofhappening around the same time.

Aarati (38:28):
Yeah it sounds like you could maybe have some major
breakthroughs maybe if you're onthis drug because...

Arpita (38:33):
Right.
Exactly.

Aarati (38:35):
...you're able to introspect a lot better or
something.

Arpita (38:37):
Exactly.
Exactly.
That was the hypothesis.
And as we know from AlbertHoffman's story, it wasn't
really an unconventional idea.
This is happening, you know, 15years after LSD and psilocybin
and mescaline were all beingdebated in academic circles
about how they could be used.
to treat alcoholism, depression,neuroses, all of these things.

(38:58):
Like this is all conversationthat is happening in the same
time.
So very similar to LSD, uh, ithas this reputation as a wonder
drug.
You know, like they're like,this could cure everything.
And some people are like,"Oh,this cured my depression that
I've been working on formonths." And there's all these
psychiatrists that are sayinglike,"Every therapist that I

(39:19):
talk to are like so impressed byall the results." So this is the
conversation that's happeningacademically

Aarati (39:25):
Yeah.

Arpita (39:26):
But on the flip side, the drug was also showing up in
nightclubs.
And in 1986, the DEA placed iton the Schedule 1 list.
And by the late nineties, asurvey showed that millions of
teenagers and college studentswere using it and then also
abusing it.
And so parents and publicofficials worried that there was

(39:46):
this generation that was goingto just be like hooked on drugs
and like have cognitive decay.

Aarati (39:52):
Oh, yeah.
I remember all those D.
A.
R.
E.
programs and stuff kid.

Arpita (39:57):
That is this.
This is all happening here.
That is this.
So MDMA started in its, youknow, kind of like, let's not
have this around our kids withthe war on drugs that started
with the Nixon administration.
And then it kind of like seepsinto, you know, later in the
nineties where we think aboutD.A.R.E.
And all of these things that arelike preventing kids from being

(40:19):
part of drug culture.

Aarati (40:21):
Yeah.

Arpita (40:22):
Separately, Sasha is like fully in alignment with
this.
Like his intention was not tolaunch a global drug culture.
He was not hoping that peoplewould, you know, over consume
this drug.
And what he really liked aboutit was that it opened this
portal into like introspection,not that people were taking
crazy amounts of this and likehurting themselves.

Aarati (40:43):
Yeah, I totally get that.
It's like, with any other drugtoo, like, if you're, setting
out to cure cancer or something,and then just as a side effect,
the cancer treatment makesregular people who don't have
cancer have some sort of, youknow, crazy trip or something,
and then they start abusing it.
It's like, I didn't create itfor that.

(41:04):
I created it for a specificpurpose, to help people who
actually need help in some way,you know?
And I, don't want people to beabusing it.
So I totally get that.
He's coming from a good place.

Arpita (41:16):
Yeah.
He's totally coming from a goodplace.
He's also really frustratedbecause counterculture sort of
hippie people are praising him.
They're like,"Oh my God, thisguy's created all these drugs
for us to..." They've, they'velike put them on a pedestal.
They're like, he's our hero.
And he's like, I am notinterested in being your hero.

Aarati (41:34):
Yeah.

Arpita (41:34):
I created this for an entirely different purpose.

Aarati (41:37):
Yeah.
This is like a scientificendeavor.
It's not supposed to be arecreational fun times,
borderline dangerous, thing.

Arpita (41:44):
A hundred percent.
Exactly.
That's exactly what's happening.
So despite all of the work thatSasha has done on this drug,
physiologically, even today, uh,we're skipping ahead a little
bit, but like even today wherethere's a little, there's little
consensus about what MDMA doesto your brain on the long run.

Aarati (42:02):
Ah just like LSD.

Arpita (42:04):
Exactly.
Yeah.
we don't know.
Also all the research got shutdown.
So it's like, we don't know fora lot of reasons.
So researchers generally agreeon its immediate physiological
effects, especially on higherdoses.
It can increase muscle tension,heart rate, blood pressure,
hyperthermia, And then there isa risk of, you know,

(42:24):
dehydration, but really what itdoes on like a neurochemical
level is that it temporarilyexhausts the brain supply of
serotonin.
The extent of this depletion, wedon't really understand.
It seems like it differs a lotfrom person to person.
And then the actual consequencesin terms of like functional and
behavioral effects, we don'treally know, but that is what's

(42:46):
happening in your brain is it'sjust serotonin, serotonin,
serotonin, serotonin until it'sall gone.

Aarati (42:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Arpita (42:54):
In the early 80s, Sasha starts having these dreams that
the DEA throws him in jail,ransacks his lab at home, and
destroys all of his records, andhe starts to get a little
paranoid.
Um, so, around this time, oncehe starts having these
nightmares, He's also finding ita lot harder to get his work
published.

(43:14):
This is where, like, all of thisstuff about drugs are bad gets
much more pervasive, andjournals are not interested.
They're kind of leery abouthuman psychedelic research, and
he decides that he needs to finda way to get all of his
information out into the publicas quickly as possible.
So at this point, he and Ann areworking together pretty closely

(43:35):
and he starts working on a bookcalled, I don't even know how to
say this.
It's like PIKHAL it's likeP-I-H-K-A-L.
PIKHAL.
And it stands forPhenylethamines I Have Known and
Loved.

Aarati (43:48):
That's the title of his book?

Arpita (43:50):
Correct.

Aarati (43:51):
Okay.
Interesting.

Arpita (43:53):
Yes.

Aarati (43:54):
Is he like, just so used to shortening chemical names
that he's now shortening thetitle of his book or something?
So weird.

Arpita (44:00):
I guess.
It is very weird.
No, this is very weird.
The book is weird as hell also.
I tried like skimming it to justsee what the deal is.
This book is so weird.
So the first half of it is TheLove Story and it's a very
thinly fictionalized account ofSasha and Ann's respective

(44:20):
comings of age, their previousmarriages...
Ann had been married three timesprior to marrying Sasha and
children from the othermarriages.
So like, you know, she has ahistory.
And then All of their respectivedrug experiences that they had.
The second part of this book,The Chemical Story is actually
like, not even a story.

(44:40):
It's just descriptions of 179phenylethamines and includes
step-by-step instructions forsynthesis along with recommended
dosages, duration of action andqualitative comments, which is
basically Sasha's opinions onhow they make you feel.

Aarati (44:56):
Oh my gosh.
So this is like halfautobiography half like lab
manual kind of...

Arpita (45:03):
It is, which is why, even though he wrote a memoir, I
couldn't actually find anythingabout him because this book is
insane.

Aarati (45:10):
Yeah.

Arpita (45:10):
Apparently, like while I was, I was writing this, I think
the University of Berkeley'slibrary hasn't had this book
physically on their shelves inlibrary because it has been
checked out since it waspublished.

Aarati (45:25):
Seriously?

Arpita (45:25):
Like someone has it checked out since it was
published.
It's never actually on theirshelves.

Aarati (45:31):
Gosh.
Oh my gosh There and there'slike probably a waiting list of
like 50 people.

Arpita (45:36):
I'm sure it's like hundreds.
Yeah.
Um, again, I don't really getit.
Like, there's also an ebook,obviously.
And like, people can check thatout.
And I personally don't reallyget it.
But, you know, i, sure makingpeople...
Bring bringing people joy.
And he was like, very, I thinkit's maybe like a little bit
less with like our generation,but maybe at least with the Gen

(45:58):
Xers, in the Bay, like, verywell known, like, people were
like, we know him, like, he wasvery much part of this, like,

Aarati (46:04):
Yeah.

Arpita (46:05):
hippie counterculturee

Aarati (46:06):
Like you said, they had him on a pedestal.
Mm hmm.
And...

Arpita (46:09):
Yeah.

Aarati (46:09):
...they're all just fascinated by him.

Arpita (46:12):
Yes.
He's like a Bay Area legend forsure, especially in this space.
So then six years later, theyactually wrote a second book
called TIHKAL which isTryptamines I Have Known And
Loved, and it follows the exactsame model.

Aarati (46:24):
Okay.

Arpita (46:25):
And his nightmares actually did come true.
So two years after he publishedPIHKAL in 1994, the DEA did raid
his lab.
Um, the agency requested thatSasha turn over his license for
violating the license terms andhe was fined$25,000 for the
possession of anonymous samplesthat were sent to him for
quality testing.
That being said, though, heactually did pass multiple

(46:49):
reviews, prior to this and youknow, the DEA had supervised his
lab for over 15 years and theyfind anything illegal or
irregular.
But I guess this one time he hadsome specific compounds that he
was not supposed to have andthen they took away his license.

Aarati (47:05):
Oh, no.

Arpita (47:06):
Realistically, they were probably just looking for a
reason to take it away.
I think they were like, this issus, this guy is working on

Aarati (47:11):
too much of a problem.
Yeah.
He's He's just making compoundafter compound.
We are in a war on drugs here,and he's...

Arpita (47:18):
Yes.

Aarati (47:19):
...not helping.
Yeah.

Arpita (47:21):
That's definitely what happened.
And then it doesn't helpactually that Sasha and Ann were
steadfast proponents of drugexperimentation and
legalization.
So their argument was that druginduced states are just a core
part of the human experience andintoxicants have just been known

(47:42):
since the dawn of time.
So even things like tobacco,opium, cannabis, coffee,
alcohol, like these are thingsthat even ancient civilizations
have used and they advocate thatlegalizing all drugs, addictive
or not, should be the case, andthat it should be a matter of
personal choice, and they'resaying like, yeah, tax it for
things like tobacco and alcohol,but the only laws that they

(48:06):
think are needed are, you know,preventing people from driving
while high or like druggingsomeone else without their
permission or substances tochildren, but they want it to
become a personal choice asopposed to making it this like
taboo thing that will then getabused.
So they're very much inproponent of making all drugs
legal.

Arpita_Shulgin_final (48:26):
again.
There's maybe some

Aarati (48:28):
sure about that.
Yeah, I'm I'm like, you know, iflike it's not like it's caffeine
or something, you know, evencaffeine.
If you have too much of it'llkill you.
If you have too much ofanything, it'll kill you.
You know, like, if you drink toomuch water, it will kill you.
So it's.
Yeah, there is a limit,

Arpita (48:47):
Right.

Aarati (48:48):
or something.
But also, I don't know ifthere's no, if you haven't
studied the substance to thedegree that you know exactly how
it works in your brain and howit might interact with other
substances that you might haveingested, um, how your maybe
weight or genetics play a rolein it, like you don't know these
things, you haven't, and so forthat, until you know these

(49:12):
things, I don't think there canbe any conversation about just
making it legal for everybody tohave, you know,

Arpita (49:17):
I...

Aarati (49:18):
until you know it works.

Arpita (49:20):
No, I agree with you.
I think his perspective is veryone sided and he is really
coming from this place thatpeople are only using drugs for
their intended uses, which isnot the case as we know.

Aarati (49:34):
Yeah, he should know better.
He should like all these, thiswhole hippie culture has arisen
because of him, you know?

Arpita (49:41):
No, exactly.
And I think he's coming fromthis place of, if we just assume
that everything is legal, thenpeople will only use drugs in
their intended use, which is nottrue.
Humans cannot be trusted in thatway, but it's because he's like,
Oh, I create all thesepsychedelics with the purpose is
to, you know, tranquility andinner understanding of yourself.

Aarati (50:03):
to help people and it shouldn't be, yeah, it
shouldn't, it shouldn't berestricted and therefore, you
know, not be allowed, not ableto help people, not be accessed
to help people.

Arpita (50:16):
Exactly.

Aarati (50:16):
I get that, but at the same time, I'm just kind of
like, you, you need to know howit works before you can just
like, you need, you need to knowsomething about it, you know?

Arpita (50:26):
Good point.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I know it's definitely a littleone sided.
Like I don't necessarily feellike I agree with it, but that I
don't know.
Neither here nor there.

Aarati (50:35):
Yeah.
Mm

Arpita (50:36):
Um, so like I said, he disapproves of recreational use
of many of the psychedelics thathe develops.
Um, recreational users oftentake very dangerous doses, which
overshadow what he believed wastheir actual purpose, which is
to gain personal insight.
And he referred to psychedelics,like I said, as research tools.
And he was really, really upsetby any overdose deaths.

(50:58):
And he said,"it's a motivationthat I'm uncomfortable with.
People using psychedelics, I amnot uncomfortable with.
I consider it a very personal,positive exploration, but I'm
very disturbed by theoverpowering of curiosity with
greed." So it's like, this feelsgood.
I'm going to take more and moreand more until it gets abused.
And so that's the part he wasjust like, I don't approve of

(51:18):
that greed.

Aarati (51:19):
Do you know if MDMA, I don't know if the, like,
amphetamines and stuff, are theyaddictive?
Because LSD was not.

Arpita (51:28):
It's a MDMA is not addictive unless it is combined
with other drugs.

Aarati (51:36):
Okay.
So by itself it's not addictive,but.

Arpita (51:39):
So, even though it's an amphetamine, it's not addictive
the way, like, methamphetaminesare.
I don't really know why that is,but good question.
So during his lifetime, heinvented over 200 mind altering
substances, which is no meanfeat, considering there actually

(52:00):
might only be around 250 to 300synthetics total, not counting
nature's own hallucinogens likemagic mushrooms, peyote, cacti
et cetera.
And in his early eighties, hewas still working on this.
And it was a series ofN-allylated tryptamines.

(52:21):
and he was like still tinkeringeven to his eighties.
Um, this is around the time hegot sick.
So on April 8th, 2008, at theage of 82, he underwent surgery
to replace an aortic valve.
Then he got a stroke and then hestarted showing signs of
dementia and then as thisprogressed Ann started taking
care of him.

(52:42):
Um, Ann started trying to sell apart of their property in order
to raise money to help covercosts.
And then finally on April 17th,2014, Ann reported that her
husband developed liver cancerand on June 2nd of the same
year, he died at the age of 88.

Aarati (53:00):
Oh, wow.

Arpita (53:01):
So his son actually died just a few years before he did.

Aarati (53:04):
Oh, that's so sad.

Arpita (53:06):
Yeah.
Which is really sad.

Aarati (53:07):
Yeah.

Arpita (53:08):
But back to our original point of the legacy of MDMA, um,
Lykos, which is a pharmaceuticalcompany that is related to MAPS,
which is the MultidisciplinaryAssociation for Psychedelic
Studies.
And if you remember from TheAlbert Hoffman episode, this is
a nonprofit organization that isvery much involved in the study

(53:33):
of psychedelics and is very muchat the forefront of this mission
to get psychedelics legalizedfor, um, therapeutic use.

Aarati (53:43):
Mm

Arpita (53:43):
So, Lykos filed for a new drug application for MDMA
safety and efficacy.
And August 9th, just a few daysago, the U.
S.
Food and Drug Administrationtold a company they would not
approve the psychedelic MDMA foruse in psychotherapy.
Specifically for post traumaticstress disorder.
That's what this new drugapplication was for.

(54:03):
So a little bit of backgroundhere.
This is part of a recentconversation of like a bigger
thing about MDMA's use forpsychotherapy.
Um, so just a background onMAPS, because they're a very key
player in this.
MAPS was founded in the eightiesby this guy named Rick Doblin.

(54:24):
He's a weird dude.
So he has this very utopian wayof talking about psychedelics.
And he said, quote,"Psychedelicsgave me this feeling of our
shared humanity, of our unitywith all life.
And I felt it.
And these experiences have thepotential to help be an antidote
to all of society's ills." Endquote.

Aarati (54:45):
Okay.

Arpita (54:46):
Yeah.
It's like a lot of sweepingthings.
So Doblin is a politicalscientist by training and his
big strategy is to make,psychedelics like MDMA
acceptable and to prove to theFDA that it's actually medicinal
in order to do this.
He needed a patient populationthat people would be supportive
of or sympathetic with.

(55:06):
And then this ended up beingveterans.
Um, which makes a lot of sense.
like, you want to get people onboard, it's like show that it's
helpful for veterans and PTSD inparticular.
So a few years ago, MAP starteda clinical trial for MDMA use in
people with PTSD in the veteranpopulation.
And so they followed theirstandard protocol, MAPS'

(55:29):
standard protocol.
And in this, there is always amale therapist and a female
therapist, and you do onesession where you take a pill.
uh, whether it's the placebo orthe drug.
And then you spend the followingthree sessions where you unpack
that experience.
You do another session with thepill, another three where you
unpack that, and then you repeatthis a set number of times,
depending on the protocol.

(55:51):
You don't know whether you'rereceiving the drug or the
placebo, which is a key part ofany clinical trial.

Aarati (55:57):
Mm hmm.

Arpita (55:58):
So, one big feeling with MDMA is a feeling of safety and
craving physical intimacy, whichis part of the reason why people
like taking this drugrecreationally.

Aarati (56:08):
Mm hmm.
Makes sense.

Arpita (56:09):
However, there are reports that the trial
therapists held participants intight hugs or cuddled them very
forcefully during thesesessions, despite many
participants having very severetrauma around physical touch or
other people around them.
So this brought up a lot ofquestions about the ethics of
someone under the influenceconsenting to physical touch by

(56:32):
a mental health professional.

Aarati (56:34):
Yeah

Arpita (56:34):
it's like they're not in their, you know, lucid state of
mind.
So they may seem like they dowant this, but then.
They are then spending the nextthree sessions unpacking this.
So in some circumstances, peoplehave said that this actually
caused them much more traumabecause this was something that
was like very challenging forthem.

Aarati (56:52):
Yeah

Arpita (56:53):
The other issue here is that many participants knew that
they were getting either theplacebo or the drug, because
sometimes you got the placebo,sometimes you got the drug, you
either tripped or you didn't.
And it was really, reallyobvious given the
hallucinations, sorry, nothallucinations, but like the
somatic symptoms that you wouldhave and like the out of body
feeling, it'd be very obviouslike

Aarati (57:14):
Mm hmm.

Arpita (57:14):
whether you got the placebo or not.

Aarati (57:16):
Yeah Mm hmm it doesn't, placebo effect doesn't work if
you kind of know that...
know what's happening.

Arpita (57:22):
Exactly.
Exactly.
So MAPS is under criticism rightnow, because even though they
are technically a nonprofit,they are very motivated to bring
psychedelics into themainstream.
They're this really big facet ofBurning Man culture, which we
know is a festival with a hugerecreational drug scene.
And because they're somotivated, they might not be

(57:44):
collecting data in the mostethical way.
And even though there is promisefor MDMA to be a tool in
psychotherapy, the way theclinical trials are conducted
makes it challenging toadequately and safely collect
safety and efficacy data thatyou need.
For clinical to take place.
And this is actually why the newdrug application was rejected.

(58:06):
It's because they weren't ableto show that MDMA had
significant effects beyondplacebo because this reason.
That's why rejected.
Um, and a lot of the scientistswho worked on this were at
Berkeley and UCSF, so it'll bereally interesting to see how
this pans out in coming years,but it's like, definitely a
conversation that's happeningright now, which

Aarati (58:28):
Wow.
That's really interesting.
So they really need to, soundslike, nail down their ethics
here.

Arpita (58:35):
Yeah, I know.
I hadn't really heard thisbefore.
Um, I was listening to actuallyjust the Vox podcast, and this
was like one of the episodesrecently, like literally last
week.
And they were talking about thisFDA, you know, ruling on the new
drug application.
And they were talking about howMAPS has unethical like some

(58:55):
like criticism on their ethics,and I was like, Oh, we just
talked about MAPS.
And MAPS sounds like this reallygreat thing that's trying to
bring, you know, psychedelics tothe people.
And it's like, not that it's abad thing, but it's like, they
might have questionable methodsfor obtaining these things.
And it's maybe working for somepeople, but like, we should be
critical of the way these dataare being obtained.
And so...

Aarati (59:15):
Yeah the means don't always justify the ends kind of
thing.
Yeah, you need to, you need todo things in the right way, even
though your intentions arehonorable, and, you know, this
could potentially help a lot ofpeople.
You need to go about it theproper way.
Yeah.
Through the proper channels.

Arpita (59:32):
But yeah, it's still developing and that's the story
of Sasha Shulgin and MDMA.
And so we don't have a new drugapplication, but we might in the
next few years.

Aarati (59:42):
Oh, exciting.
We should definitely keep oureye on this and hopefully update
our listeners as we go along.

Arpita (59:49):
Totally agree.

Aarati (59:50):
Yeah.
Oh, great story though.
I had actually never heard ofSasha Shulgin.

Arpita_Shulgin_final (59:55):
Me either.

Aarati (59:56):
yeah.

Arpita (59:56):
We're not good Bay Area

Aarati (59:58):
Yeah.
We're not, I think

Arpita_Shulgin_final (59:59):
about that.

Arpita (59:59):
I was gonna say, I think we're too young.
But

Aarati (01:00:01):
That too.
We did miss the whole 80'sculture, like drug culture.
We just.
You know, we just went intoschool and immediately were
bombarded by don't do drugs, andwe're like, okay,

Arpita (01:00:14):
I love all the memes that are like elementary school
made me think that people aregonna be offering me drugs on
every corner and it turns outthat you actually have to pay a
lot of money for

Aarati (01:00:23):
Yeah, literally.
No, it literally did.
It had like the creepy guy inthe jacket who's like, Hey kid,
you want to do some drugs?
And you're like supposed to sayno, so yeah, it, it

Arpita (01:00:36):
Yeah.
All the memes are so funnythough.
Just like, you know, like the,the, all the jokes about like,
check your kids Halloween candy,cause they might be drugged.
And like all the jokes aboutthat are like, I paid a lot of
money for my drugs and I'm notgoing to just put them in some
random kid's Halloween candy.

Aarati (01:00:51):
That is a good point, actually.
Yeah.
Like, what is the, what is thepoint of that?
Yeah.

Arpita (01:00:57):
Anyway, that's our story.

Aarati (01:01:00):
Yes.
Great story.

Arpita (01:01:02):
Thank you.

Arpita_Shulgin_final (01:01:03):
like to talk about

Arpita (01:01:04):
drugs.

Arpita_Shulgin_final (01:01:05):
Just some drugs.
Yeah.

Aarati (01:01:06):
Yeah.
Thanks for listening.
If you have a suggestion for astory we should cover or
thoughts you want to share aboutan episode, reach out to us at
smarttpodcast.
com.
You can follow us on Instagramand Twitter at smarttpodcast and
listen to us on Spotify, ApplePodcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
And leave us a rating orcomment, it really helps us
grow.

(01:01:26):
New episodes are released everyother Wednesday.
See you next time!