Dr. Charles Drew: The Blood Banker

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Blood transfusions were a risky business until this athlete turned surgeon came along. Aarati tells the story of a literal bloody genius!

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Episode Transcript

Arpita (00:09):
Hi everyone! And welcome back to the Smart Tea podcast,
where we talk about the lives ofscientists and innovators who
shape our world.
How are you, Aarati?

Aarati (00:17):
I'm doing pretty well, Arpita.
How are you?
You're back from your amazingtrip to Italy,

Arpita (00:22):
it was so amazing.
Um, I was at a wedding for mypartner's best friend.
It was such an amazing,elaborate over the top wedding.
I had the best time.
And then after that we headed toSwitzerland and we spent some
time in the Italian Alps, whichwas just such a great come down

(00:45):
from such a fun wedding.
We, you know, like had, we'relike so up high for the wedding.
And then we got to like spendsome time in nature, do some
hikes, do some bike rides.

Aarati (00:53):
I nice.
Just you and your partner Logan,right?

Arpita (00:56):
Yeah, exactly.
Um, and we met up with somefriends for the Alps adventure,
which was really just like sucha great way to end the trip.
Like truly no notes.
I had such a great time.
That being said, Italy in thesummer, at least that part of
Italy was so hot.
I don't think I stoppedsweating.
So like being in the mountainswas like such a really nice

(01:17):
reprieve after that.
Um, but it's very nice to beback.
I feel like by the end of thetrip, I was ready to come back
to my routine, see the cats.
Um, so it was like the perfectamount of time to be gone.
So yeah, happy to be back.

Aarati (01:32):
And you're back amongst now all the political craziness
that we have going on.
You kind of missed the, turningpoint, I think, in Italy,
although you probably werekeeping up with the news.

Arpita (01:43):
I think it was hard to miss.
I think it was hard miss.
We were all, I think, like gluedto our phones just being like,
what is going to happen next?
I like, yeah, it was, it washard to miss.
Um, I know such a crazy turningpoint.
There was a big part of me thatwas having a ton of election
anxiety and not really knowinghow I wanted to feel or how I
wanted to proceed.

(02:03):
Um, I still do.
I still do a lot of electionanxiety, but this is a very
exciting turning point.
And it does give me a little bitmore hope moving forward.
Are you, how are you feelingabout it?

Aarati (02:15):
Yeah, no, it's exactly the same in our household.
Like, I know I said last timethat I'm one of those people
that when it comes to politics,at least I kind of buried my
head in the sand and like, Idon't want to think about it.
It stresses me out too much.
Um, but now With Biden droppingout and Kamala Harris coming in,
it's like inescapable in myhousehold.

(02:36):
It's just constantly like, yeah.
Um, it's just like, did you hearwhat he said?
Did you hear what she said?
What do you think about it?
What do you think is going tohappen?
Is this going to be 2016 allover again with Hillary Clinton
and just speculating and like,how do we make sure that, you
know, this doesn't happen soit's, yeah, it's, it's just

(02:59):
constant conversation.
I, I can't escape it anymore.
Um, you know, it's just crazy.

Arpita (03:06):
Totally, totally agree.
And then there's like, you know,all the, all the side Googling
that you're doing, all the, youknow, thought pieces that you're
reading just to try tounderstand a little bit more of
this.
So yeah, I think it's totallyinescapable, but it is giving me
a little bit more hope for thefuture.

Aarati (03:19):
And it's also so crazy just to see, like, how many
different perspectives thereare, you know, you have, like,
the far right people, then youhave the left people, and then
you have the far left people,and it's just, like...

Arpita (03:32):
The spectrum gets bigger and bigger.

Aarati (03:34):
Yeah, it really does.
Oh, but I did I did want to tellyou something, though, that I
discovered.
related to the podcast.
So basically I found anothercultural Easter egg type thing.
Um, did you know that JohnnyDepp has a band?
He and this guitarist named JeffBeck who, was part of a band

(03:59):
called the Yardbirds back inlike the 60s and 70s.
They released a song in 2022called,"This is a Song for Miss
Hedy Lamarr."

Arpita (04:08):
Oh my gosh.

Aarati (04:09):
Yeah I had no idea.
I think I saw it on Twitter andI was like, Wait, is this real?
And then I went and I looked itup and yeah, there's like a
YouTube video of them,everything.
They're singing this like, rockode to Hedy Lamarr.
It's kind of great.

Arpita (04:24):
Love it.
Is it a good song?

Aarati (04:27):
I mean, it's not my genre of music that I usually
listen to.
I'm gonna link it on the,webpage that we have on our
website for Hedy Lamarr.
Like I'll link the, um, musicvideo or like the recording that
they have of it.
Yeah, but the lyrics are like,"This is a song for Miss Hedy
Lamarr/ erased by the same worldthat made her a star./ Spun out

(04:51):
of beauty, trapped by its web/she's a perfect cocoon entwined
in gold thread." So that's justlike the first couple lyrics of
it.

Arpita (04:58):
Interesting.
Okay.
Does it talk about her being aninventor?

Aarati (05:02):
Not really.
It's very much more kind of thiskind of sad ode.
I guess I kind of got thefeeling that it was like people
missed out on her brilliancemore than actually talking about
what she actually did.
It was just like, you know,people tried to fit her into a
box even though she wanted toget out of that.

(05:24):
So I think it was talking a bitmore about that kind of struggle
and how people kind of held herdown a bit.
So it was kind of sad.

Arpita (05:33):
That makes sense.

Aarati (05:34):
I love finding these little, Easter eggs in pop
culture that, you know, now, nowI get it because we've done that
episode and I'm like, Oh, I knowwho this person is.
I know what he's talking about.
I totally understand this kindof melancholy, dramatic rock
song, you know?

(05:55):
So yeah, it's part of the reasonI love this, love doing this
podcast.
Alright, so I'm doing the storytoday.

Arpita (06:05):
Yeah.
Who are we talking about today?

Aarati (06:07):
So I was doing a lot of research to figure out who I
wanted to do today.
I think I started like threedifferent people's stories and
then finally landed on CharlesDrew and he is a surgeon.
Kind of like, you know,following up on my interest in
surgeons, like Joseph Lister wasmy second episode on the
podcast.

(06:27):
And so now here we are again.
But Charles Drew is the fatherof blood banking.
So I thought that was a veryinteresting concept.

Arpita (06:37):
Super interesting!

Aarati (06:39):
Yeah, he was also, one of the first black surgeons in
America.
So he pushed down a lot ofhurdles.
So I thought it was also kind offitting with Kamala Harris
running and breaking throughthese kinds of racial barriers

Arpita (06:52):
Definitely.
Yeah.
I'm super to hear.

Aarati (06:55):
All right.
So, Charles Richard Drew, whowent by Charlie, was born on
June 3, 1904 in Washington, D.
C.
At this time, Jim Crow laws werewidespread, and most of the area
was heavily segregated, butCharlie's family lived in a
pretty interracial neighborhoodcalled Foggy Bottom, which I

(07:16):
love.
Love that name.

Arpita (07:19):
Yeah.

Aarati (07:20):
Both of his parents were very light skinned, but socially
and culturally, they were allfirmly part of the Black
community.
But I thought this was, um, animportant bit to note because
Charlie's light skin may havekind of helped him be a little
bit more easily accepted bywhite people around him as he
got older.
Um, kind of given him that edge,you know, but yeah.

(07:43):
His father Richard was a carpetlayer and the financial
secretary of the Carpet,Linoleum, and Soft Tile Layers
Union.
He was also the only blackmember of this union.
And his mother, Nora, graduatedfrom Howard University with a
degree in teaching, but shenever actually got a job as a
teacher.
Instead, she chose to stay athome and raise Charlie and his

(08:06):
three siblings, Joseph, Elsie,and Nora.

Arpita (08:09):
Those are really cute names.

Aarati (08:10):
Yeah,

Arpita (08:11):
Like all really cute names.

Aarati (08:13):
Yeah.
And I think, like, they werealso, to some extent, named
after their parents as well.
So, cause Nora was also themom's name.
You know, uh, Charlie's middlename was Richard, which is the
same as his father's name.
So yeah.

Arpita (08:27):
Very cute.

Aarati (08:28):
They were a typical middle class family, not super
wealthy, but also not poor.
They placed a lot of importanceon academic education.
They attended the 19th StreetBaptist Church and generally
just placed a lot of importanceon helping out and being part of
the community.
Charlie was a very active kid.
He loved going to the localYMCA, which was one of the first

(08:51):
in the nation to open a swimmingpool for black children.

Arpita (08:55):
I did know that.

Aarati (08:56):
Yeah, so he took full advantage of that and he would
compete in races and won medalsin swimming.

Arpita (09:03):
Yeah.
The pools were a really big, abig thing that we're because,
you know, It was like, youdidn't want to like mix in this
big pool as opposed to, youknow, being in a public space
together.
And so like the pools were areally big deal.
And I remember that the YMCA wasa really big part of this.

Aarati (09:19):
Yeah, I can totally see that, um, and we're kind of
going to get into that a littlebit, Charlie was also very smart
and he had a bit of anentrepreneurial streak.
For example, when he was 12years old, he got a job as a
paper boy selling newspapers andhe quickly figured out where his
best customers were and within ayear he had hired 6 other boys

(09:40):
to help him delivering papers tothose areas and Charlie would
take a small percentage of theirprofits.
Yeah, the really smart kid.

Arpita (09:50):
That's really funny.

Aarati (09:51):
Yeah.
When he got older, he had anumber of other jobs to help
bring in extra money for thefamily, including being a
lifeguard at the local swimmingpool, supervising city
playgrounds and working inconstruction.
So just all around hardworkingkid.

Arpita (10:07):
Yeah.

Aarati (10:08):
He attended Dunbar High School, which was one of the
best public schools for Blackchildren in the nation.
But when he was partway throughhigh school, tragedy struck his
family.
An epidemic of influenza sweptthrough Washington, D.
C., and Charlie's youngersister, Elsie, caught it.
She had already been strugglingwith tuberculosis, but then when

(10:29):
she caught influenza on top ofthat, she ended up passing away
from complications due to bothdiseases.
So this had quite a profoundeffect on Charlie and his family
because they were really close,um, very tightly knit family.
And after her death, Charlie'sparents moved the family to

(10:50):
Arlington, Virginia, kind of toget away from it all, I think.
And here they had one morechild, another daughter named
Ava.
Charlie still completed hiseducation at Dunbar High School.
He was smart and he got prettygood grades, but what people
really knew him for was hisathleticism.
He was just amazing at sports.

(11:12):
He was part of four teams inhigh school.
Football, yeah, football,basketball, track, and swimming.

Arpita (11:21):
So then that means he was on playing sports year round
because football's in the falland then track is in the spring
and basketball's in the winter.
Wow.

Aarati (11:28):
Oh yeah, I didn't even think about that.
Yeah, you're totally right.

Arpita (11:31):
That's a lot.
Like season and like, yeah,that's, that's tough.

Aarati (11:36):
Yeah.
He won the James E.
Walker medal for all aroundathletic performance in both his
junior and senior year.
He was also a captain in thehigh school Cadet Corps.

Arpita (11:48):
How did this kid have time for all of this?
Like, I'm tired thinking aboutit.

Aarati (11:52):
I know.
When he graduated, he was votedbest athlete, most popular
student, and the student who hasdone the most for the school.

Arpita (12:00):
It's very sweet.
I feel like this is like verymuch like giving homecoming king
status, like, you know,

Aarati (12:05):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.

Arpita (12:06):
Star of the school, like star of the, like, captain of
the football team, you know,like that kind of vibe.
Like I'm getting...

Aarati (12:10):
Yeah, and he's also very charismatic, very friendly,
like, you know, easy to getalong with very helpful.

Arpita (12:17):
Totally.
I'm getting like high schoolstar homecoming King.

Aarati (12:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
So he was such a remarkable allaround athlete that Amherst
College, which was apredominantly white school,
offered him an athleticscholarship to do his
undergraduate studies there.

Arpita (12:35):
Wow.
Which sport did they end upbeing for?

Aarati (12:38):
It's actually two sports for football and track.

Arpita (12:42):
That is crazy.
You don't get a scholarship fortwo sports.
That's crazy.

Aarati (12:46):
Yeah.
I think it was just like an allround athletic, like you're an
all round great athlete, we wantyou here in this school.
But he did end up joining thetrack team and football.

Arpita (12:56):
Yeah.
That's crazy.

Aarati (12:58):
Yeah, Amherst, though, was quite a change for him,
because once he enrolled, hesuddenly became one of only 13
Black students in a school of600.
So, going from an all Blackschool to this, like, very
largely white school.
And he faced aa lot ofdiscrimination there that he had
never really had to deal withbefore.

(13:21):
So, for example, there was onlyone fraternity that Charlie was
allowed to join, and it was theBlack Fraternity Omega Psi Phi.
He did join that.
And when they went on awaygames, the black players were
often left out of team events.
Like, they couldn't go todinners at fancy restaurants
because the restaurants wouldn'tallow black people in the

(13:43):
restaurants.
And so the team just wentwithout them.
And then they were often targetsof bullying by the opposing
team's white players, which I'msure their team did not stand up
for them at all.
So,

Arpita (13:56):
What year is this?

Aarati (13:59):
yeah, I think 1920s at some point.

Arpita (14:03):
Okay.

Aarati (14:04):
One of the biggest injustices, though, was in his
third year, when they werepicking new football, a new
football captain.
Charlie was clearly the bestplayer on the team.
And so he should have beenchosen, but he wasn't, he was
passed over just because of hisrace.

Arpita (14:20):
It's crazy to think there's only like a hundred
years ago, like exactly ahundred years ago.
It's not very long.

Aarati (14:26):
And I would argue that we still haven't really moved
that far or as far as I wouldhave expected in hundred years.
We're still fighting kind of thesame battles.

Arpita (14:36):
Definitely.

Aarati (14:37):
So he did receive the Thomas W.
Ashley Memorial Trophy as theclass member who made the
greatest contribution to Amherstsports.
But I found that kind of, ranghollow.
If you're not gonna give him,the captainship, then, I don't
know, like, why are you givinghim a trophy but not making him
captain?
That's so weird.

Arpita (14:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like a consolation prize,but not really a consolation
prize.
Like it's almost more insulting.

Aarati (15:03):
Exactly.
It's like you made the greatestcontribution to our sports
teams, but also we're not goingto make you captain.
But interestingly, even thoughhe was a great athlete, it seems
like he never seriouslyconsidered going pro in any
sport.
He found sports extremelyvaluable because they taught him
life lessons, like how to bepart of a team, and how to
prepare for the challenges andcompetitions in life and how to

(15:26):
lose with grace.
But the time he started collegeat Amherst, he had pretty much
made up his mind to go intomedicine as a career.

Arpita (15:35):
Was he already interested in science in
college?

Aarati (15:39):
Yeah, he really liked, apparently he really liked his
biology professor, so that wasone thing.
Um, but part of it was actuallydue to the impact of his sister
Elsie's death.
Um, so he had been really upsetthat the current state of
medicine at the time hadn't beenable to save her.
And then after her death, he dida bunch of, research studying

(16:00):
influenza and tuberculosis andstuff.
Um, but then another reason wasactually thanks to his sports
career, because during hisjunior year he was injured
playing football and the injurygot infected.
So he had to spend quite a bitof time in the hospital.
And he was talking to all thedoctors and nurses and learned

(16:20):
firsthand about how his body wasworking to heal itself.
And so he found that reallyinteresting.

Arpita (16:26):
Yeah.
This feels like a pretty commonstory for, I feel like a lot of
people I know who go intomedicine.
It's like someone close to themor like something happened to
them specifically to getamalgamation of things.
But it's like interesting tohear that that story has gone on
for, you know, decades.

Aarati (16:40):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think that's why a lot ofpeople get into science and
medicine in general is becausethey want to...

Arpita (16:46):
Right.

Aarati (16:46):
help.
You know.

Arpita (16:48):
Help people.
Yeah.

Aarati (16:51):
But after graduating in order to pursue a medical
career, Charlie needed money formed school.
So he got jobs, plural, atMorgan College in Baltimore as
the director of athletics,coaching football and
basketball, a biology instructorand a chemistry instructor.
Again, I don't know how he hastime.

Arpita (17:12):
Yeah.
I'm, this is exhausting.

Aarati (17:15):
Yeah.
After two years, he had saved upenough money and applied to
several med schools.
Um, at least the ones that wereaccepting black students at the
time.
He had really wanted to go toHoward University Medical
School, but was rejected becausehe was short two English credits
from Amherst.

Arpita (17:35):
Isn't it crazy that he took two years and he saved up
enough money for med school?
Yeah.
Yeah.

Aarati (17:39):
Yeah, that's pretty amazing.
I mean, yeah, he did work fourjobs, But still, like, it's,
yeah, the fact that he was ableto save enough money for med
school, I think, like, today,what would you save?
Like, enough for, like, half ayear, maybe?
something?

Arpita (17:55):
At least half a million you would need for all of med
school.
That's crazy.

Aarati (18:00):
Yeah, so yeah, he was rejected from Howard University
Medical School, and this upsethim quite a bit, and he, quote,
"vowed he would one day returnto Howard and run the place,"
end quote.
So, he was pissed, but...

Arpita (18:16):
We love a little vengeance.

Aarati (18:18):
Yes.
but for the time being, Charlieended up deciding to go to
McGill University in Montreal,Canada.
So at McGill, Charlie continuedto participate and excel in
sports, but he was also anexcellent student.
There was also much less racialsegregation here, and so Charlie
was able to socialize andparticipate in events much more

(18:38):
easily.
At McGill, he did an internshipunder Dr.
John Beattie, who was abacteriology professor.
And Dr.
Beattie was studying how totreat patients that go into
shock.
So, people go into shock whentheir body doesn't have enough
blood flowing to the vitalorgans, usually because they've

(18:59):
lost a lot of blood due to aninjury, or they're super
dehydrated, and so they've losta lot of fluids.

Arpita (19:05):
Yeah.

Aarati (19:06):
And so Dr.
Beattie very logically figuredthat a blood transfusion would
help prevent a patient fromdying from shock because you're
adding back the blood that thebody needs.
But the actual practice ofgiving a patient a blood
transfusion was very challengingat this time.
We had not figured out, like,what you needed to do in order

(19:29):
to do a proper bloodtransfusion.
So, for reference, right aroundthis time, it's 1930, and an
Austrian American scientistnamed Karl Landsteiner won the
Nobel Prize for figuring outthat there are four blood
groups, A, B, AB, and O.

Arpita (19:45):
I was just going to ask where we were with knowing what
blood types are.
Okay.

Aarati (19:49):
Yeah, so we've just figured out that there are four
blood groups and that you needto match the person's blood type
before giving them a bloodtransfusion or organ donation,
otherwise it's not going to endwell.
And this is where Charlie isentering into the field and
starting to understand, like,the practical challenges around
giving blood transfusions.

Arpita (20:11):
Got it.
Okay.
That's where we are.
But where does the blood comefrom at this stage?

Aarati (20:15):
Oh, we'll get to that

Arpita (20:16):
Okay.

Aarati (20:17):
Okay, so in 1933, Charlie graduated second from
the top of his class of 137students and was awarded the
Williams Prize for AcademicExcellence.
After completing his residencyat the Royal Victoria Hospital
and Montreal General Hospital,Charlie stayed true to his word
and applied once again for a jobat Howard University Medical

(20:38):
School.
And this time, he was acceptedas an instructor in pathology.
So he's back.

Arpita (20:45):
to run place.

Aarati (20:47):
Yeah.
So when Charlie joined Howard,there was a new dean called Numa
P.
G.
Adams, and he had just beenappointed to the medical school
and was on a mission to enhancethe reputation of the physicians
at Howard and black doctors ingeneral.
So there was really this kind oflike, general feeling that black

(21:09):
doctors were not as good aswhite doctors, and so, yeah, he
wanted to try to elevate blackdoctors' status in general.
So he recommended Charlie for aRockefeller fellowship so that
he could get a doctor of sciencedegree at Columbia University
under Dr.
Alan O.
Whipple, who was a surgeon, andDr.

(21:30):
John Scrudder, who was anassistant professor of clinical
surgery.

Arpita (21:35):
Is the Dr.
Whipple who the WhippleProcedure is named after?

Aarati (21:39):
Oh, I didn't know there was a Whipple procedure.

Arpita (21:42):
I feel like I only know this because of Grey's Anatomy.
Hold on.
Let me look it up.

Aarati (21:45):
I have not watched that show, so I don't know.

Arpita (21:47):
Whipple Procedure.
Oh, yep.
Dr.
Alan Whipple.

Aarati (21:51):
Yep.

Arpita (21:52):
Yeah, that's him.
At Columbia Presbyterian?

Aarati (21:55):
Yeah, exactly.
Columbia and Presbyterian.

Arpita (21:57):
Yeah, it's him.

Aarati (21:59):
What is...?

Arpita (22:00):
That's crazy.

Aarati (22:01):
I don't know.
I don't know about this.
What is the Whipple procedure?

Arpita (22:04):
It is a pancreatic oduodenectomy also known as a
Whipple procedure is a majorsurgical operation most often
performed to remove canceroustumors from the head of the
pancreas.
And so the pancreas, stomach andintestine are all joined
together.

Aarati (22:24):
Oh my goodness.
Oh, whoa, that's crazy.
I had no idea.

Arpita (22:28):
I only know that because they talk about it in Grey's
Anatomy and they're like, areyou going to do Whipple?
Yeah.
Like

Aarati (22:33):
Nice.
Okay.
Good to know.
So yeah, it's the same guy veryinteresting.
So Charlie goes to study underDr.
Whipple.
both Dr.
Whipple and Dr.
Scrudder were very interested inthe problem of blood transfusion
and maintaining fluid balance inthe body during an operation.
So Charlie got to work with themand got to continue his work in

(22:55):
this area.
He also got a lot of experiencelooking after surgical patients,
which he technically wasn'tsupposed to be able to do
because Black people weren'tallowed in the patient wards at
the Presbyterian hospitals.

Arpita (23:08):
I see.
Were there specific hospitalswhere he was allowed to practice
and then that one he wasn't.

Aarati (23:14):
Yeah, like, I think there was a hospital nearby
Howard University calledFreedman's Hospital, I think,
that a lot of the Black doctorswent to, but since this dean was
trying to, like, increase thereputation of physicians, he
specifically recommended Charlieto go study with Dr.
Whipple and Dr.
Scrudder at Columbia Universityin the Presbyterian Hospital,

(23:34):
and so, you because of that,Charlie was at, you know, the
Presbyterian Hospital.
And there was apparently thisrule there that Black people
aren't allowed in the patientwards.
But Charlie was so charismaticand friendly that Dr.
Whipple just let him come alongon his rounds, and people were
fine with it.
Because, you know, he's thisreally charismatic guy.

(23:56):
He's, like, amazing.

Arpita (23:58):
Right.
Like charismatic, probablyreally smart.
Also helps that he's probablywhite passing to a certain
extent.
Like, yeah, like all of thesethings together, like
definitely.

Aarati (24:07):
Yeah, exactly.
So he also started participatingin the annual medical clinics at
the John A.
Andrew Memorial Hospital inTuskegee, Alabama, to help the
poor rural black communitiesthere.
This reminded me a lot of, um,your other episode, Patricia
Bath, by the way.

Arpita (24:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
A lot of similarities, for sure.

Aarati (24:30):
Yeah.
So he would take these tripsfrom New York to Alabama.
And these trips ended up beingmonumentally important to
Charlie's story, which you willsoon see.
So on one of these trips, he wasdriving down to Tuskegee and
stopped over in Atlanta to visitsome friends at Spelman College.

(24:51):
They went into the dining hallto eat and- kind of like in this
romantic movie scene across acrowded room- he laid eyes on a
woman named Minnie LenoreRobbins

Arpita (25:02):
Minnie! That's so cute!

Aarati (25:05):
Charlie was immediately smitten and asked his friends
about her, and they told him shewas the home economics teacher.
And they played wingman, theywent over, they invited Minnie
to a party that they were allgoing to later that night, so
that Charlie could, like, get anintroduction.

Arpita (25:22):
Right.
I'm just imagining this, like,group of bros being like, Hey
man, like, we could set you upand like, that's so cute and
wholesome.

Aarati (25:28):
Yeah.
At the party, Charlie and Minniehad a friendly chat and they
danced, but then the next day,Charlie had to continue going on
his way down to Tuskegee for theclinic.
But he can't stop thinking abouther.
So once he's done with theclinic, three days later, he
goes back to Atlanta, which Idon't think he was supposed to
do.
He was supposed to just go backto New York.

(25:50):
Um, but he's headed straight tothe Spelman College dorms where
Minnie was staying.
He arrived at the college dormsat one in the morning.

Arpita (26:00):
Oh dear.

Aarati (26:01):
He found the head of the dorm and convinced her to wake
up Minnie so that he could talkto her.

Arpita (26:07):
At one in the morning?

Aarati (26:09):
Yeah.

Arpita (26:10):
Dear.
And she's danced with him onetime.

Aarati (26:12):
Right.
Three days earlier.

Arpita (26:14):
is it cute or creepy this point?
Question mark.

Aarati (26:16):
A little bit.
I don't know.
Like,

Arpita (26:19):
is creepy.

Aarati (26:20):
yeah.
Oh, just, I would be like one inthe morning.
You've lost me.

Arpita (26:24):
I would be alarmed for sure.

Aarati (26:27):
Yeah.
But apparently Minnie was opento it.
She came down.
They talked for a long time, andthen after a few hours, Charlie
proposed to her, like,

Arpita (26:38):
What?

Aarati (26:39):
Literally three days after having met her.

Arpita (26:42):
Okay, you definitely lost me.
It was cute.
This is now unhinged.

Aarati (26:46):
He's, like, head over heels, like, absolutely head
over heels in love with her.
But...

Arpita (26:52):
Okay.
I guess as long as they're intoit.

Aarati (26:55):
No, Minnie wasn't.
Minnie was like, yeah, you'regoing too fast.
You need to slow down.
She liked him though.
So she was like, we can date fora bit and see how things go.

Arpita (27:07):
Okay.
She's rational.

Aarati (27:08):
Yeah.
So I think, you know, he'sagain, like super friendly, very
charismatic.
So I think she got good vibes,but she was also like, dude,
it's been three days, you know,you're nice...
but...

Arpita (27:21):
Also, not like they were texting while he was gone.
You know, like, they haven't hadany contact.

Aarati (27:25):
Yeah.

Arpita (27:25):
You danced with her and then you haven't talked to her
or seen her in 3 days.

Aarati (27:28):
Yeah, and then you show up at one in the morning and
propose, like, that's Yeah

Arpita (27:33):
Unhinged behavior.

Aarati (27:34):
Yeah.
But she was willing to give hima chance, so she was like, let's
date, let's see how things go.
So, Charlie went back to NewYork to continue his work, um,
but he started writing lettersto her pretty much in every
spare moment that he got,basically trying to win her over
with romantic words and poetryand just, like, Absolute like

(27:54):
schoolboy type of romancing, youknow, but Minnie, I think, found
it charming.
She wrote back, and then after afew months, she came to visit
him in New York and met hisfamily.
And then, after what must haveseemed like an eternity to
Charlie, five months after hemet Minnie, they were married.

Arpita (28:15):
Okay, that's like a little bit more reasonable
timeline.
By my standards, still prettyaggressively fast, but I mean, 5
months is like reasonable to me.

Aarati (28:24):
Yes.
Five months, at least you've gotto know each other.
You've talked a bit.

Arpita (28:28):
Yeah.
Resonable.

Aarati (28:29):
So she moved to New York to live with him and soon they
had a daughter named Roberta whothey nicknamed Bebe which was a
reference to Charlie's otherquote unquote"child" which was
the blood bank that he wasstarting to build

Arpita (28:46):
Again.
You've lost me.
Started out cute.
I was like, my partner and Icall each other BB and like,
that is our nickname.
That's very cute.
Yeah.
Very cute.
And then you said that it wasblood bank and I'm like, Jesus
Christ, this man has lost meagain.
Starts out cute....

Aarati (29:03):
You call each other Bebe?

Arpita (29:04):
Bebe.

Aarati (29:05):
Bebe.
Why Bebe?

Arpita (29:06):
I don't know.

Aarati (29:09):
Just something that stuck?

Arpita (29:10):
It's stuck.
It stuck a long time ago.

Aarati (29:13):
like, Charlie was just spending so much time building
this blood bank that it waslike, oh, are you going to hang
out with your actual daughter,Roberta, or your other the blood
bank that you're building?

Arpita (29:25):
Christ.

Aarati (29:27):
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So this is a great way totransition back to Charlie's
work on blood transfusion.
The biggest problem physicianshad was that there was no known
way to store blood outside ofthe human body for a long time.
So this is kind of starting toget back to your question of
where's the blood coming from?

Arpita (29:48):
Right, if there's no way to store it, then how are they
getting it to even try atransfusion?

Aarati (29:54):
Right.
So, The problem is, if you tookblood from a donor and tried to
store it, within two days, theblood cells would start to break
down.
So if a patient came in with atraumatic injury, or if they
started to go into shock on theoperating table and needed an
immediate blood transfusion, thedoctors had to run around trying
to find a donor with the sameblood type before the patient

(30:17):
died.
And sometimes it worked out ifthere was a family member that
was present with patient, butobviously that wasn't always the
case.
So oftentimes doctors would endup literally just finding some
random person off the street whois usually a vagrant who is
desperate for money.
And they were like, will pay youfor your blood.

(30:39):
Get in here.

Arpita (30:41):
But how do they know what blood type they are?

Aarati (30:43):
Well, I think they could figure it out pretty quickly.
I'm not sure exactly how theydid the tests back then, but
think they could figure out whatyour blood type was fairly
quickly.
Um, but the people that they'repicking off the street aren't
like the greatest people, youknow, they're...

Arpita (31:00):
They're not model citizens.

Aarati (31:01):
Yeah, exactly.
And so the probability ofgetting blood that was
contaminated with some diseaseor drugs was pretty high.
So even if you save the patientnow, you've just given them a
whole host of new problems.
So good.

Arpita (31:18):
Yeah fair.

Aarati (31:19):
So there was this real need to be able to collect,
transport, and store bloodsafely so that it could be used
whenever it was needed.

Arpita (31:26):
Mm hmm.

Aarati (31:27):
So scientists around the world were just starting to get
into the idea of blood banks andwere experimenting with
different ways of collecting,donating blood and storing it.
In 1925, a group of doctors inNew York started the Blood
Transfusion BettermentAssociation to figure out ways
to get better quality donatedblood.

(31:47):
In 1939, Charlie and JohnScrudder started their own
experimental blood bank at thePresbyterian Hospital where they
treated patients.
And one year later, Charliepublished his thesis called

"Banked Blood (31:59):
A Study in Blood Preservation."

Arpita (32:04):
wait, so how are they storing it?

Aarati (32:06):
So we're going to get into that right now.
So that's what his, that's whathis thesis was about.
Yeah.
So his thesis went over all ofthe previous blood and
transfusion research thatexisted and evaluated the best
way to collect and store blood.

Arpita (32:23):
Okay..

Aarati (32:24):
I just want to be clear, like, most of his thesis wasn't
stuff he discovered on his own,like, other scientists had
theorized about a lot of thesedifferent techniques, and he was
more like going methodicallythrough all of this research and
testing it and figuring out,like, what the best practices
were,

Arpita (32:40):
Right.
Like a systematic review andlike really doing like a meta
analysis almost.

Aarati (32:45):
Yeah, exactly, like, what's the best way collect and
store blood?
Let's test everything and figureit out Um, so one of the most
important things that he figuredout was that if you separate the
blood plasma, which is theliquid portion of the blood that
contains proteins andelectrolytes from the blood
cells- which are, you know, redblood cells, white blood cells

(33:07):
and platelets- you could storethe plasma and the cells
separately for up to a weekuntil you needed to do a
transfusion.

Arpita (33:15):
Mm hmm.

Aarati (33:16):
And then even better, blood plasma doesn't have a
blood type because blood type isdetermined by your red blood
cells and like proteins that areon the surface of your red blood
cells.
So if you needed to, you couldjust give a patient plasma to
help rebalance their body fluidsand you didn't have to worry
about what blood type they were.

Arpita (33:36):
That makes sense.
Are they, are they giving justlike saline in fluids?
Like when they need to, um, helppeople with fluid loss?
Like, it's not the same as bloodplasma, but just to get them
rehydrated really quickly, ifthey've had a lot of fluid loss,
is that something that's anoption?

Aarati (33:53):
I think so.
I didn't read too much aboutjust saline transfusions.
I know that like to store theblood, they would mix it with
saline.

Arpita (34:03):
Like it's not necessarily the same, but if
you're anticipating someonebeing really dehydrated, you
could just give them saline andan IV.

Aarati (34:11):
True.
I don't know about that.
Like I know scientists hadthought about blood plasma as
being really great at thatbecause it also contains like
electrolytes and proteins thatyou need.
Um, and so that's why likescientists were like, if we
could somehow.
freeze and thaw blood plasmathat would already go such a
long way into helping rebalancebody fluids.

(34:33):
So yeah.
So John Scrudder, who wasworking with Charlie to set up
the blood Bank said that histhesis was quote,"one of the
most distinguished essays everwritten, both in form and
content" unquote.
The timing was also really greatbecause we are just at the start
of World War II now and GreatBritain was under attack by

(34:54):
Germany.
And so thousands of injuredsoldiers were desperate for
blood and Great Britain startedthe Blood for Britain project
and contacted the BloodTransfusion Betterment
Association in New York for helpdoing this.
So they roped in John Scrudderand Charlie and they
experimented with ways to sendlarge volumes of contamination-

(35:17):
free blood plasma overseas.

Arpita (35:21):
When they're doing the contamination- free part, is it
just centrifuging it down andthen...

Aarati (35:25):
Yeah.
So here's what they're actuallydoing.
So they're centrifuging theblood to separate the plasma
from the blood cells.

Arpita (35:32):
Yeah.

Aarati (35:32):
Uh, they bottle it in sterile air and ultraviolet
conditions.
Then they add antibacterial toit.
They transfer it to a shippingcontainer, seal it, and pack it.
And along the way, I read alsothey were like testing for
contamination, like at everysingle step of this.

Arpita (35:50):
Okay.

Aarati (35:51):
So this effort was super successful.
By the end of the program, GreatBritain received over 14, 500
blood donations and shipped over5, 000 liters of plasma solution
and saved countless soldierslives.

Arpita (36:05):
Wow.
How is their process for, Iguess, um, processing blood
different than the way it istoday,

Aarati (36:12):
I don't know how the process is different.
I do know that back then theycould only freeze and thaw blood
plasma for, like, a week, um,which was still, like, a huge
achievement for them.
But now, I mean, technology'smoved on.
I'm not exactly sure exactlywhat the differences are.
But I know today we can freezeblood plasma for up to a year.

(36:35):
Um, but cells still have a muchshorter shelf life.
So red blood cells now can onlybe stored for 42 days, which is
much better than two days.
And platelets can only be storedfor a week.

Arpita (36:49):
Ok Wow I didn't realize it was that short for platelets.
Interesting.

Aarati (36:53):
Yeah, but people are like not too worried about that
because platelets come throughwith every blood donation and
I'm sure now we know how toseparate platelets from red
blood cells and things whichthey couldn't do before.
So...

Arpita (37:04):
Right.

Aarati (37:04):
So Charlie was a appointed assistant director of
the Blood for Britain programand also spent three months
working with the Red Cross onsetting up mobile refrigerated
trucks to collect and transportdonations for when America got
involved in the war.
By 1941, the Red Cross's programwas running smoothly.
And at this point, Charlie hadbeen away from his wife and

(37:26):
Howard University for a longtime because he was like running
around setting up these mobileYeah, much.
I think he kind of forgot abouther too.
She was not happy.

Arpita (37:37):
After he was so obsessed with her, he was like, yeah I'm
good now.

Aarati (37:40):
Yeah, Yeah.
He's like, okay, I got you.
You're going to be at home withour baby Bebe and, going to go.
So he had been running aroundsetting up this mobile blood
collection program.
Um, he had been away from homefor a really long time.
His wife was not happy aboutthat.

Arpita (37:57):
I wouldn't be either.
the, I would be so mad.
I'm not going to lie.
I would be like, are you kiddingme?
You propose to me 3 days laterand you claim to be obsessed
with me.
And then now you just dip.
I would be so angry.

Aarati (38:09):
Yeah, you got me pregnant, I have a child, and
now gone.

Arpita (38:12):
I would be like, yeah, divorce immediately.

Aarati (38:14):
Yeah, so she probably was very strongly expressing her
anger, and so he resigned fromthe Red Cross and returned home.
At home, he took the AmericanBoard of Surgery exam.
And for the oral part of theexam, the examiners asked him
about fluid balance in the humanbody.
And apparently, Charlie gavesuch a long and complicated

(38:35):
answer that the examiner neededto go find someone who was more
qualified to actually understandwhat Charlie was saying.

Arpita (38:44):
That's funny.

Aarati (38:45):
Yeah.
So, needless to say, he passed.
And six months later, he waschosen to be an examiner
himself.
Making him the first blacksurgeon to ever be in that
position.
So his wife, Minnie, was alsovery happy to have him home.
And in July, she gave birth totheir second child, Charlene,

(39:05):
Charlene?
Charlene Rosella.

Arpita (39:08):
That's cute.
I can't believe she agreed tohave another baby, but carry on.

Aarati (39:13):
So, to that point, although he was physically back
at home, life was tough becauseCharlie was very passionate
about his work and he didn'tspare a lot of time for his
family.
At Howard university, he wasappointed professor of surgery
and chief surgeon at the nearbyFreedman's hospital, which we
talked about earlier.
And he started training blackdoctors.

(39:35):
He was constantly in this battleto make people see that black
doctors were just as good aswhite ones.

Arpita (39:40):
No, listen, I'm fully on board with this guy like
championing black doctors, butalso if that was me, his wife.
I would have lost it like 18separate times.
I need to go back to the cutie.
year long science honeymoons.

Aarati (39:57):
Oh, yeah.
I think he just like didn't, hewas so interested in his work
and he didn't understand why shedidn't realize how important his
work was.
Like she,

Arpita (40:08):
It's giving neurodivergence.

Aarati (40:10):
Yeah, he's like, but my work is so important, why don't
you get that?
And she's like, I need you homewith my two kids at least once
in a while.

Arpita (40:18):
It's giving touch of tism.

Aarati (40:23):
Yeah it is.
So he's constantly in thisbattle to make people see that
black doctors were just as goodas white ones.
He and other black doctors werenot permitted to be members of
the American MedicalAssociation, where doctors could
network with one another anddiscuss new advancements in
medicine.
He also had to spend a lot oftime and effort denouncing the
idea that blood donations thatcame from Black people were

(40:44):
somehow inferior in quality.
So, kind of back to that, like,swimming pool idea, like, people
did not want to mix for somereason.
Yeah.

Arpita (40:55):
Yeah.
I mean this went on for a longtime.
Like gay men were not allowed todonate blood because engaging in
high risk sexual behavior, whichis Like, no longer a thing, but
like, quotes, high risk sexualbehavior, and so for a long
time, they were not permittedfrom donating blood.
Actually, let me fact checkmyself.
I feel like it's also, I thinkthere's like, still something

(41:17):
about it.
Yes, they can now.
In May 2023, the FDA removedrestrictions on gay and bisexual
men donating blood.

Aarati (41:27):
Oh my God.
Like last year?
That's, That's, insane.
I had no idea it was thatrecent.
I would have guessed like the90s maybe or 2000s at the
latest.
Oh, that's crazy.

Arpita (41:43):
Yeah, there used to be a period of, abstinence.
So you had to say that youhadn't engaged in any sexual
behavior and the like window oftime decrease, but only in 2023
did they remove that blanketban.

Aarati (41:59):
Oh, wow.
That's insane.

Arpita (42:02):
Yeah.

Aarati (42:04):
Like I said, in a hundred years, I feel like we
haven't moved as far as I wouldhave hoped or I would have
liked.

Arpita (42:10):
Yeah.
Agree.

Aarati (42:12):
So some people thought that Charlie partly resigned
from the Red Cross because hesaw how patriotic Black citizens
would try to donate their bloodfor the war effort and be turned
away.
Um, they wouldn't even collectblood from Black donors to give
to Black soldiers who werewounded, which, you kind of
would be, like, the obviousthing.

Arpita (42:31):
Yeah.

Aarati (42:31):
Everyone just got blood from white donors.

Arpita (42:34):
Interesting.

Aarati (42:36):
And so, ironically, even Charlie himself, who, like, set
up this program and was integralto running it for a while,
couldn't donate his own bloodbecause no one would take it.

Arpita (42:45):
Right.
Yeah.
That is very ironic.

Aarati (42:48):
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm kind of bouncing aroundhere, I'm sorry.
But, now he's We're back toMinnie and Charlie.
So,

Arpita (42:59):
This train wreck of a love story.
Okay.
Yeah.
What happens now?

Aarati (43:02):
They have, they have two more children.

Arpita (43:05):
Shut up.
No, she didn't.

Aarati (43:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Arpita (43:08):
God damn.

Aarati (43:10):
Yeah.
Rhea Sylvia and Charles RichardJr.

Arpita (43:14):
And she named it fully after him.

Aarati (43:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But does that stop him or likebring him back to the family at
all?
No, it does not.

Arpita (43:24):
I'm surprised he was at home long enough to even make
the

Aarati (43:28):
Right?

Arpita (43:29):
Yeah.

Aarati (43:29):
Yeah, but that still didn't stop him from continuing
to work.
He kept on teaching students atHoward University and fighting
for Black doctors to berecognized and included in
medical associations.

Arpita (43:43):
And now she has four kids?

Aarati (43:45):
Yeah, she has four kids and he's like, Great, I'm off to
work again.
Bye, honey.
In 1948, the first residentsthat he trained took their
certification exams, in whichthey would be competing against
other white students for thebest scores.
So there was a lot riding on itfor the students, but also
Charlie as their teacher.
When the results came in, thepresident of Howard University

(44:07):
called Charlie to tell him thatone of his students placed
second overall in the exam.

Arpita (44:12):
Wow.

Aarati (44:13):
Yeah, so Charlie was thrilled, but then the president
told him that another of hisstudents placed first, which I
was like

Arpita (44:21):
What was the order of news?

Aarati (44:23):
Right?
Tricky.

Arpita (44:25):
Who does that?
That's so annoying.

Aarati (44:28):
But this gave Charlie a huge confidence boost to
continue training students andmany of the doctors who trained
under him went on to make greatstrides for black doctors and
medicine in general And I readsomewhere that almost every
Black doctor who was trained inthe 1940s at Howard was taught
by Charlie at some point.
Which makes sense.

Arpita (44:46):
Makes sense.

Aarati (44:46):
Yeah.

Arpita (44:46):
Makes Makes sense he hasn't left the building in
decades.
yeah, I'm sure they ran into himat some point.

Aarati (44:53):
yeah.
Alright, so, remember I told youabout the annual free medical
clinic in Tuskegee that Charliewas helping out with

Arpita (45:01):
Yes.

Aarati (45:02):
Alabama?
That's how he met Minnie in thefirst place.
Now we get to a much worsereason why that trip is
important.
So, in April 1950, he was headeddown to Tuskegee, as he did
every year.
He was traveling with threeother Black physicians, Dr.
Samuel Bullock, and two surgicalinterns, Walter R.

(45:22):
Johnson and John R.
Ford.
They set out together fromWashington, D.
C., and they were taking shiftsdriving down to Tuskegee.

At 5 (45:29):
30 a.
m., they stopped for coffee anddonuts at the Virginia- North
Carolina State Line, and thenthey continued on with Charlie
driving.
Everyone at this point was quitetired.
I mean, they had been, like,driving all night, I think, from
Washington, D.
C., and they hadn't really takena break, um, and that was partly

(45:51):
It was really hard to findhotels or motels that would
cater to Black people, sothey're just, like, driving
constantly.
So everyone's quite tired.
The road was very quiet, andeveryone kind of dozed off,
including Charlie.
Not good.
The car drifted off the road andDr.
Bullock yelled,"Hey Charlie!"Charlie snapped awake and yanked

(46:14):
the wheel back, butovercorrected and flipped the
car.
The driver's side car door flewopen and Charlie was partially
thrown out and severely injuredwhen the car was rolling.

Arpita (46:26):
Oh yikes.

Aarati (46:27):
Yeah.
The other physicians were mostlyokay.
Dr.
Ford broke his arm and Dr.
Bullock cut his hand, butCharlie was in really, really
bad shape.
They rushed him to the AlamanceGeneral Hospital and tried
everything to save him, but hedidn't make it.
He died when he was only 45years old.

Arpita (46:47):
Oh my gosh.
Such a tragic death.

Aarati (46:51):
Yeah.
And kind of ironic too, becauseYou know, he's working on all
these, like, blood transfusionthings, and then he dies from
traumatic injury, basically.
So when news got out about hisdeath, rumors circulated that he
was not given proper carebecause he was Black, but the
three doctors who had been inthe car with him refuted this.

(47:12):
They said that even giving ablood transfusion was impossible
because of the extent of hisinjuries.
Major blood vessels to the hearthad been ruptured, and Dr.
Ford said, quote,"all the bloodin the world could not have
saved him."

Arpita (47:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Aarati (47:27):
So his body was brought back to Howard University and on
April 5th his funeral was heldat the 19th Street Baptist
Church where his family hadworshipped when he was a kid.
The funeral procession spannedthree blocks and police had to
be called in to direct traffic.
That's how popular he was.

Arpita (47:46):
Like how many people he reached.

Aarati (47:48):
Yeah He was buried in Lincoln Cemetery in Suit
Suitland, Maryland I thinkthat's how you say it, Suitland,
Maryland.
He received words of praise fromEleanor Roosevelt, historian,
John Hope Franklin, and thePulitzer Prize winning novelist,
Pearl Buck.

(48:09):
Hubert Humphrey, who was then acongressman in Minnesota and
later became vice president ofthe United States, entered
Charlie's obituary into thecongressional record because of
his contributions to science.
The community came together andstarted the Charles R.
Drew Memorial Foundation, whichraised enough money for Minnie
to buy herself and her fourchildren, now, a new house

(48:32):
because they could no longerlive in Howard's faculty
housing.

Arpita (48:37):
I didn't think about that.

Aarati (48:39):
Yeah, um, but Howard University did give Minnie an
income from an endowment thatCharlie had set up, and three
fourths of what Charlie's salarywould have been every year to
live on because Charlie dieddoing work related to the
university.

Arpita (48:54):
That's a lot.

Aarati (48:55):
Yeah, I felt so sorry for her though, just in general.

Arpita (48:59):
Completely.
That's so

Aarati (49:00):
he was alive.

Arpita (49:01):
That is question up and down.
My god.

Aarati (49:05):
So Amherst College set up the Drew Memorial Scholarship
to give financial aid tostudents who needed it.
The Charles R.
Drew Postgraduate Medical Schoolwas created in affiliation with
the University of SouthernCalifornia.
And in 1976, the Clinical Centerat the NIH hung a portrait of
Charlie in the gallery, whichwas the first portrait of a

(49:26):
black person to be hung there.

Arpita (49:29):
Whoa.

Aarati (49:30):
Yeah.

Arpita (49:30):
What year?

Aarati (49:31):
1976.

Arpita (49:33):
That's way too recent.

Aarati (49:35):
Yes, it's much after his death, also.
He died in 1950 and like 26years later, they're like, okay,
we'll hang a portrait of you.

Arpita (49:46):
What was the School of Medicine

Aarati (49:48):
The Charles R.
Drew Postgraduate Medical SchoolIn 1977, the Red Cross also
dedicated the Charles R.
Drew Blood Center in Washington,D.
C., and he even had a postagestamp made in his honor as part
of the Great American Series in1984.
And yeah, that's about it.

(50:09):
That's the life of Charles Drew,the athletic and charismatic
Black surgeon who helped us withblood transfusion.

Arpita (50:19):
Yeah, that's quite, quite the up and down, for sure.
Super tragic ending to his life.
I feel like these, like, reallytruncated lives are always,
like, this question mark of,like, even, like, Ettore
Majorana, like, last time was,like, you know, he, like, died
slash not died so young, andit's, like, unclear what he
would have done.

(50:40):
Otherwise, you know, if you keepwondering what if, which

Aarati (50:43):
yeah, like,

Arpita (50:44):
I don't

Aarati (50:45):
And it seems like such a, it's just like a split
moment, too.
Like, he just dozed off andovercorrected the car and he was
gone.

Arpita (50:55):
Right.
Yeah it could happen to anybody.

Aarati (50:57):
But then like to think that also it was like kind of
traced back to back again toracial segregation and how they
couldn't find a motel for thenight and they couldn't, like,
stay anywhere, which might haveprevented all of this if they
could have just gotten a goodnight's sleep or, like, planned
a little bit.

Arpita (51:12):
I know.

Aarati (51:13):
So,

Arpita (51:14):
wow.
He really did look pretty white.

Aarati (51:16):
Yeah, he did.
I think I read, that he probablyhad, Scottish And English genes
and maybe even some NativeAmerican genes, thrown in there
with his black genes.
So,

Arpita (51:28):
Yeah like he definitely looks pretty white.

Aarati (51:30):
Yeah, he, he does.
Just based off his picture, Ithought he was white.

Arpita (51:35):
Yeah.
I was just curious.
I was like wanting he lookedlike.

Aarati (51:38):
Yeah.

Arpita (51:39):
I do see the white passing.

Aarati (51:41):
Yes, definitely.
People give him a little slidethere because of that, I think.

Arpita (51:47):
For sure.
Yeah.
Great story.

Aarati (51:50):
You.
Thank you.
very much.
Also like when I was researchinghim, there were so many other
side stories that I was like, weneed to do this person next
because they sound like thiscrazy vampire scientist that
like all this, like all thesepeople experimenting with blood
transfusions to like, you know,give themselves eternal youth or
like, these weird ways of likestoring blood that I was like,

(52:14):
Maybe in the future we'll havesome of those kind of stories.

Arpita (52:17):
Definitely.
Okay.
Yeah.
Super interesting.
Definitely.
Keep those back of mind.
We'll revisit them in thefuture.
Thanks for listening.
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(52:40):
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