Dr. José Manuel Rodríguez Delgado: The Mind Controller

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Mind control is more than science fiction! Arpita tells the story of a scientist who could make charging bulls stop dead in their tracks and cats lick at invisible bowls of milk. 

For more information and sources for this episode, visit https://www.smartteapodcast.com.

Episode Transcript

Aarati (00:11):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast,
where we talk about the lives ofscientists and innovators who
shape the world.
How are you doing, Arpita?

Arpita (00:19):
I'm doing okay.
I am solo parenting this week.
L O L.

Aarati (00:25):
Parenting your two cats?

Arpita (00:26):
My two cats.
Um, Logan is on a work trip toNew York this week, which is
pretty much fine.
Like, I feel like I've just beenbusy with work and stuff, but
Poppy is very attached to Logan.
Like, very, very attached.
They have like a very cuterelationship.
Logan goes to bed later than meand then wakes up later than me,
and so at night, uh, he'll belike, on the couch, working, or,

(00:51):
you know, on his laptop orwhatever, and then she will just
sit in his lap and purr, likeshe's just so excited, and in
the mornings, when I leave forwork earlier, She will then go
and cuddle with him in the bedbefore he wakes up, but he is
not here this week, and so inthe mornings, I wake up earlier
than Logan does, and she'll comeinto the bedroom, and she just

(01:11):
wails at the top of her lungs,and she's just, like, on the
bed, like, pawing underneath,like, to try to get underneath
the covers, and I'm like,homegirl, I don't know what to
do for you, your dad is not herethis week, and...

Aarati (01:25):
Poor thing!

Arpita (01:26):
Yesterday, she decided to go on a hunger strike.

Aarati (01:29):
Oh, no.

Arpita (01:32):
So we're having a little bit of drama.
So right before we startedrecording this evening, I texted
Aarati and I said, Oh, I'm goingto hop on really quickly.
Like, I need to feed my cats.
I thought this was going to be a30 second to one minute project
where I just, you know, dumptheir food into their bowls and
I was going to come in and Iended up being almost 10 minutes
late because I had to sit thereon the floor in the kitchen and

(01:54):
basically hold the food on alittle spoon to try to coax her
to try to eat her food and she'slooking at me like Nah, girl,
like, I will not be eating that.

Aarati (02:02):
Oh my gosh.
I was wondering.
I was like, where is she?
She said you have to feed thecats.
That takes, what, like twominutes?

Arpita (02:10):
No, it normally, that would be correct.
And then I was like, this is,anyway, she is.
Very drama, but she's alsoorange, so she only has three
brain cells at max.
And she's very, very sad thather dad is not here.
I promise all her biologicalneeds are met.
And also, Logan comes home onFriday morning, so.

Aarati (02:28):
Yeah, it's just a couple more days.
Just hold on, hold on.

Arpita (02:32):
She's fine.
She just like looks at me andshe's like, you're not, you're
not what I want.
I'm like, what do you mean?
What have I done to you?

Aarati (02:40):
Yeah.
I'm, I'm your mom.
Come on.

Arpita (02:43):
I know.
Like, I'm your mom.
Yeah.

Aarati (02:46):
Oh my goodness.
That's so funny.

Arpita (02:48):
So we have some dramatics over here in this
household.

Aarati (02:51):
That's so funny.
I mean, yeah, when, Kyro getsleft, like if I have to leave or
my brother has to leave orsomething, usually there's like
still someone at home.
So he gets sad for like thefirst day, but like.
After the, after a second day,he's like, okay, well, I guess
this is the new norm.
And he just like goes along withit, but he has never, ever gone

(03:13):
on a hunger strike, like ever.
So it's like a foreign concept.
Yeah.

Arpita (03:19):
I know.
I feel like Peppy is so foodmotivated and he is, I don't
think.
Is capable of being on a hungerstrike and Poppy has decided
that she is on a hunger strikenow.
So,

Aarati (03:29):
Wow, good luck with that.

Arpita (03:31):
Yeah, I know.
This is just so dramatic for noreason, but that's going on with
you?

Aarati (03:36):
In exciting news on my end, I got a new desk.
It is an ergonomic desk, like anadjustable up and down.

Arpita (03:44):
Welcome to the 21st century, Aarati.

Aarati (03:46):
I know.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It was months literally where Iwas like, you know, my right
shoulder hurts really bad.
And I equated it to using mycomputer mouse all the time.
So then I went into research.
I asked my friends and they wereall like, you need adjustable
desk and you need a better mouseand you need a better keyboard

(04:08):
and you need a new monitorthere.
So I'm like, okay, 1 step at atime.
So I've got my desk.
I've got my new mouse and I amlearning to work with all of it.
I'm just playing with my desk,going like up and down, up and
down, finding the right heightfor me.
And yeah, it's, it's a lot offun.

Arpita (04:25):
Your physical therapist friend is very proud of you and
approves of this.

Aarati (04:29):
Yes.
Yes.
She's the one who helped me alot with it, actually.

Arpita (04:33):
So.
I literally meant me, but yeah,that too.

Aarati (04:36):
Oh yes, you too.
Sorry.
Yes.
Yeah, but it's really helpedimprove my posture like, I knew
that I had to sit back in mychair more and like keep my
shoulders straight more, but Iwas always just unconsciously
leaning forward all the time.
You know, my shoulder was likein this weird like twisted

(04:58):
position all the time and I justcould not get out of that.
But now it's like magic withthe, you know, with this desk, I
can actually like slide my legsall the way underneath and I can
sit straight up.
So very excited about that.

Arpita (05:13):
My thing is always that ergo setup are always just like
so ugly.
And I'm like, I do not want thatin my house.
And I'm like, what is the cuteversion of the sit to stand desk
and the mouse that isn't justlike so funky and weird and so
strange looking that I don'twant it on my desk?
And like, how do I get an ergochair that isn't?

(05:34):
This chunky, black gamer chairthat a boy would have in his
bedroom, and I'm like, this is,like, you can see my background,
like, we are cute, this is cute,this is a girl's room, like, I
don't want the weird gamerchair.

Aarati (05:46):
I want something cute and functional, please.

Arpita (05:49):
Yes, thank you.
I think that intersection isvery important.

Aarati (05:53):
Yeah, and very rare to find, I think, in women's stuff.

Arpita (05:55):
Agreed.
I know.

Aarati (05:57):
It's hard.

Arpita (05:58):
It is hard.

Aarati (05:58):
Guys get all the comforts of life.
We women just have to put upwith stuff.

Arpita (06:03):
It is true.
It's true.
Well, before we dive into ourstory today, we have an
announcement.
I am leaving Smart Tea PodcastI've been thinking about this
for a few months now, and thishas been a really long decision

(06:25):
that I've made and Aarati and Ihave been talking about this for
several weeks now behind thescenes and this is the first
time that we're sharing it withall of you It's certainly not
because it was a secret, butmore because we were trying to
figure out what this would looklike for us and the podcast.
And it's been so fun to trysomething new.

(06:46):
Both of us were really soexcited about science
communication, and that's how wegot connected in the first
place.
And I wanted to challenge myselfto try to experiment with a new
medium, which is a podcast.
It's something that I'd neverreally done before, and together
we figured out so many thingslike audio editing, and what
software to use, and you guyswere there with us through all

(07:08):
the kinks, but I'm starting torealize that there are a lot of
other things going on in my lifethat just isn't giving me the
bandwidth to fully dedicate tothis podcast the way that I
would like to, um, and it feelssuper bittersweet because
there's this part of me thatvery much felt like I was

(07:28):
letting Aarati down, like,letting the podcast down,
letting all of you down, and Idon't want that to be the case.
Like, I'm still going to be sucha huge fan, and I'm turning into
a listener, and the podcastisn't going anywhere, but it is
something that I, it wasn't adecision that was taken lightly,
is really my summary point, butyeah.
That's yeah, that's our that'sour news.

Aarati (07:49):
Yeah, and I am so thankful to you for you know
starting this with me because Ithink it was your idea
originally you asked me likehave you ever thought about
starting a podcast and I waslike not seriously Yeah, you did
you like we were just chattingand you were like, by the way
have you ever thought aboutstarting a podcast and I was

(08:10):
like, well not seriously becauseI couldn't do it on my own, you
know, and we were like, well, ifwe come up with an idea for a
podcast, maybe we could do ittogether.
And so that's kind of how thepodcast got started.
I never would have started itwithout having you like by my
side to help me because I alsolike didn't know anything about

(08:31):
audio editing podcasting like,you know, it's a whole new
medium I didn't know anythingabout like I was just like how
do we get this onto Applepodcast?
How do we get it on Spotify?
I don't know.

Arpita (08:43):
How do we edit?
How do we yeah Yeah, so

Aarati (08:45):
How do we do any of these things?
Yeah, so it was a huge learningcurve.
But like you said the podcastisn't going anywhere.
Although Arpita is leaving, Ihave found someone to help me
carry on the podcast.
Her name's Maria, Uh, she'sactually my best friend from,
gosh, I met her in sixth grade,so I don't even know, like, what

(09:09):
is that, 25 years or somethingthat we've known each other?
It's, yeah, so she's, she'sgonna be helping me carry on the
podcast.
I'm really excited.
And she's Super smart.
She, you know, also has herdoctorate in physical therapy,
just like Arpita.

Arpita (09:25):
I love that there's still going to be a PT on this
podcast.

Aarati (09:28):
Yes.
Complaining about my posture.
Like, I'm not sitting right.
Yeah, so she has thatbackground.
Uh, she has a Masters inElectrical Engineering.
Um, she's just super, supersmart, way smarter than me,
actually.
So she's going to be bringing alot of new knowledge to the
podcast.
So I'm really excited to haveher on.

(09:50):
Um, and it's just going to befun doing the podcast with my
best friend.
Also, that also sounds like agreat time to me.
So, um, no, yeah, but Arpita isgoing to stay on until the end
of March.
So she's going to tell thisstory and then.
Listen to one more from me nexttime we do an episode and after

(10:11):
that, my friend Maria will takeover.
So, yeah.

Arpita (10:15):
Yeah, one thing that we were talking about and something
that I really wanted all of youand also Aarati you to know is
that I feel super proud of whatwe've built together, but I also
Want this to turn into somethinglike an iteration of what it is
currently and so I'm reallyexcited to see what you and

(10:37):
Maria do together.
It sounds like we're gonna getsome new scientists with things
that she's really passionateabout and interested in and
maybe get some more deep divesinto math and electrical
engineering.
It sounds like because

Aarati (10:50):
Yeah.

Arpita (10:51):
It's not something I can do.
I think has been proven time andtime again.

Aarati (10:55):
I'll have another engineer in my corner who can
help me figure out some stuff.
Yeah, so yeah, she'll definitelybring some new topics of
conversation to the podcast.

Arpita (11:07):
Totally.
And I love that.
And yeah, like I said earlier, Iam planning to be a full fan and
listen to every episode and hopeto be back for maybe guest
episodes in the future andsupport both of you in any way
that I can, but, um, it'sdefinitely a bittersweet moment,
but.
It is, I think, the rightdecision for me.

Aarati (11:28):
Yes, well, we're sorry to see you go, but I, I totally
understand, like, podcasting isa lot of work.
It is so much time it takes toresearch these people, make sure
you have everything accurate,and that's just before you even
record the episode afterwards,there's all this editing that
needs to be done, and you know,there's just a lot it's it's a

(11:51):
lot of work.
It sucks up your time like noother so I totally do understand
your decision and i'm sograteful that you've been part
of it for the past more than ayear now.

Arpita (12:02):
Thank you.

Aarati (12:02):
But yeah before you go

Arpita (12:05):
Yes

Aarati (12:05):
It's time for you to tell your last story of the
podcast.

Arpita (12:11):
My last story.
Okay, so I also belabored overwhat story to do because I was
like, I have to make this sogood now.
And I was like, this has to belike the best story I've ever
told.

Aarati (12:19):
Yeah, it has to be amazing.

Arpita (12:21):
I rewrote this story so many times, I actually changed
people twice because I was like,this isn't good enough.
Like, I'm like, this isn't agood enough story.
This person's life isn'tinteresting enough.
And I was just like, God damnit.
And I, like, I don't know,agonized over this.
And now I'm like, this is goingto be the most mid story ever.

Aarati (12:38):
No, it's going to be great.

Arpita (12:39):
I think I've overcorrected.

Aarati (12:43):
It's going to be great.

Arpita (12:44):
A little less picky.
I was thinking about all theother episodes I've done and
there's like a few that standout in my mind of ones that I
feel like particularly excitedabout.
Like I feel really excited aboutAlbert Hoffman and the LSD
episode.
I really like the episode onpsychedelics.
Like these are some of thestories that like stand out to
me and I was like it has to bebetter than that.

(13:05):
And I'm like, those justhappened organically.
And I'm like, I just need tochill.
It's really, yes.
I need to relax.

Aarati (13:11):
Relax.
Yeah.

Arpita (13:14):
Um, okay.
So the mid and maybe wonderfuland also maybe terrible story
that I will be telling today isabout Jose Manuel Rodriguez
Delgado, who I had never heardof before.
And he is known forgroundbreaking neuroscientific
innovation.
And he is also has a lot ofethical controversies around

(13:35):
him.
And I was really excited abouthim because my PhD was in
neuroscience.
And I feel like we actuallyhaven't had that many
neuroscientists.

Aarati (13:45):
We haven't.

Arpita (13:46):
We haven't.
So I was really excited to learnabout his story and there's also
some, like, interesting twiststhat I'm excited to tell you
about.
So José Manuel Rodríguez Delgadowas born on August 8th, 1915 in
Malaga, Spain.
And because he is Spanish, hismother's family name is
Rodríguez and his father'sfamily name is Delgado, but his

(14:10):
last name is actually RodriguezDelgado.
From here on out I am actuallyjust going to call him Jose
because it's too long.

Aarati (14:18):
Yeah, that's a, that's a mouthful for sure.
Yeah.

Arpita (14:21):
He's the son of Rafael Rodriguez Amerigo and his dad
was a direct descendant ofAmerigo Vespucci who was the
15th century explorer who wasthe first person to recognize
that North and South Americawere new continents.
After Christopher Columbusinitially discovered them.
So he's the one that America isnamed after.

(14:42):
Amerigo Vespucci.

Aarati (14:42):
Oh, interesting.
Interesting little tidbit.

Arpita (14:46):
Yeah, interesting little tidbit that doesn't come up
again ever in the story, buthe's a direct descendant of
Amerigo Vespucci.

Aarati (14:53):
Okay.

Arpita (14:54):
So, José is the second of three sons, and I truly could
not find a single thing abouthis childhood, but when he was a
young adult, he enrolled in theUniversity of Madrid right after
high school and started workingon his medical degree.
And this was right before theSpanish civil war.
And so he went to medical schoolhoping to be an ophthalmologist

(15:17):
because his father was anophthalmologist also.

Aarati (15:20):
Okay.
Gotcha.

Arpita (15:21):
And so his early life was really deeply intertwined
with the socio political kind ofupheaval that Spain was having.
So he's just getting to collegeand like working to on medical
school when the Spanish CivilWar breaks out.
And this was a brutal conflictthat involved the left leaning

(15:41):
Republicans and the right wingnationalists, which were
basically fascists.
And the fascists were led byFrancisco Franco.
And the end of the Civil Warresulted in the nationalist
victory and then leaded to adecades long dictatorship in
Spain.
So, Jose was basically juststarting medical school when the

(16:03):
Civil War started in 1936.
So he participated in the war asa medical corpsman on the
Republican side, and this likereally influenced him because he
experienced firsthand some ofthe horrors of armed conflict
and some of the results of thatand how people were affected
with PTSD and all these otherthings like coming out of like
witnessing these really horriblethings.

(16:25):
Yeah.
And At the end of the war, hewas actually held in a
concentration camp on thefascist side for five months
before he was released.
So, as a really young adult, heexperienced some of these, like,
really, really tragic things,and they were very formative for
the rest of his life,understandably.

Aarati (16:41):
Yeah, that would be so scary to be witness to, that
young.

Arpita (16:46):
Definitely.
And so, this was a very, like Isaid, very intense personal
experience.
And definitely shaped hisworldview, and he had this now
profound understanding of humansuffering and fragility of life,
but then he also becameinterested in PTSD and anxiety
and panic disorders, which willthen come up a little bit later

(17:08):
in the story.

Aarati (17:09):
So they didn't call it that back then, right?
Like, it wasn't called PTSD, or

Arpita (17:14):
No.
I am adding that.

Aarati (17:16):
Yes.
Okay.
Just making sure.

Arpita (17:18):
He became basically interested in like psychological
disorders.

Aarati (17:21):
Yeah.
Okay.
Gotcha.

Arpita (17:23):
So after the camp, he had to repeat his MD degree.
I can't figure out why thathappened.
Maybe there was like, the onlything I could think of is that
somehow it like timed out orsomething where like you needed
to finish your degree in acertain amount of time or
something.
I don't know.
But I checked multiple sourcesand it said that he had to
repeat his MD degree.

(17:43):
And I asked ChatGPTwhy he had torepeat his MD degree and ChatGPT
was like, I don't know.

Aarati (17:50):
Really?
I'm actually very impressedbecause I have asked ChatGPT
questions like that and it hasmade shit up.
I'm like,

Arpita (17:58):
Really?

Aarati (17:59):
Yes, like I was trying to do.
Like not for this podcast, but Iwas trying for another project I
was working on I was trying tofigure out how two founders of a
company had met each other and Iwas like going through all these
press releases and articles andI was like Let me ask ChatGPT
and it was like oh they met whenthey were like graduate students

(18:21):
in Stanford together.
And i'm like really?
Because i'm pretty sure one ofthe founders didn't go to
Stanford and so I like doublechecked and i'm like Yeah, he
didn't go to Stanford.
Um, and so then I asked GPT,like, what is your source for
this?
Like, can you give me theoriginal source?
And it was just like, oh, youknow, I just, made a best guess

(18:42):
based on how these thingsusually happen.
Usually founders meet each otherin graduate school.
And so I just assumed thatthat's probably what happened.
And I'm like, You can't just saythat, like, so I'm, I'm really
like, it seems like it's taken astep up since then and just went
straight to, you know what?
I don't know.

(19:03):
And I'm like, I respect that.
That's fine.
If you don't know, it's okay.

Arpita (19:09):
Well, ChatGPT basically said, there is not much known,
is what it said.
And then I was like, okay,great.
That makes me feel betterbecause I'm scouring the
internet right now.
And yeah, anyway, okay.
So then he repeats his MD degreeand then he goes on to get his
PhD at the Ramón y CajalInstitute in Madrid.
And though he initially wantedto be an ophthalmologist, once

(19:29):
he discovered all the writingsof Santiago Ramón y Cajal, he
changed his mind.
As we know, Santiago Ramon yCajal was a Spanish
neuroscientist and pathologistwho is very widely considered
the father of modernneuroscience, and he
revolutionized our understandingof the nervous system.
He did a lot of work inunderstanding what neurons were,

(19:51):
and he has these like beautifuldrawings and illustrations that
if you have not seen, you shouldabsolutely go see.
He's like the OG scienceillustrator, and he has, I
think, inspired generations ofneuroscientists at this point,
but including.
Jose.

Aarati (20:05):
Can I tell you something?

Arpita (20:07):
Yeah.

Aarati (20:08):
Okay.
So I've actually already startedmy story for the next...

Arpita (20:12):
is it Ramon y Cajal?

Aarati (20:13):
Yes, it is.

Arpita (20:14):
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.

Aarati (20:15):
I was like, when you started this story, I was just
like, how are we on such a samewavelength?
I think this happened like lasttime too, because we both did
like Pasadena based.

Arpita (20:26):
Oh yeah, that was funny.

Aarati (20:27):
Charles Richter and Jack Parsons, like both.
You know, California Pasadenabased scientists.
And now you're like, Oh, we'retalking about like this Spanish
neuroscientists.
And I'm like, we did it again.
How did this happen?

Arpita (20:45):
Ramon y Cajal is really good one.
I'm excited about that.

Aarati (20:48):
Yeah, so I just, it's coming next, and now I'm locked
in.

Arpita (20:54):
Awesome, I love it.
Okay, so our OG scienceillustrator, and then Jose was
inspired by him, and he decidedto pursue his passion for
neuroscience.
And he started spending sometime in a physiology laboratory,
and he became very captivated byall the mysteries of the brain.
And he said, quote,"How littlewas known then, and how little
is known now, about the brain."

Aarati (21:15):
Still true.

Arpita (21:16):
I agree.
And as he was starting hisexplorations, he wanted to do
experiments on primates, but hehad a really hard time finding
research animals.
And just as an aside as mylittle editorialization here is
like, we are back to mesoapboxing about no research
standards and, yes, guardrailsaround the types of experiments

(21:39):
that you are allowed to do, um,and this isn't even that long
ago, like, this is the 40s,like, it's not, this isn't like
the 15th century or anythinglike that, but even then, it's,
what is the funny acronym forThe animal, it's like I,
something with an I...

Aarati (21:54):
iUPAC?

Arpita (21:55):
IUPAC.
Like there's no, there's noIUPAC guidelines or trainings
here at all.

Aarati (22:00):
I forget what it stands for.

Arpita (22:02):
International Animal...

Aarati (22:04):
International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry.
Okay.

Arpita (22:07):
No, wait, that's not it.

Aarati (22:09):
That's not what we're thinking of.

Arpita (22:11):
No, it's not.
It's like IACUC.
IACUC.
Is that right?

Aarati (22:15):
Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee, IACUC.

Arpita (22:19):
Yay!

Aarati (22:19):
Okay, I did not know that because I've never dealt
with them.
So

Arpita (22:24):
Oh, do worms not count?

Aarati (22:26):
No, they're basically bacteria.
So I've never had to.

Arpita (22:29):
That's funny.

Aarati (22:30):
Yeah.

Arpita (22:31):
Cause I definitely did have to do that for some
rotation labs cause they werelike mice labs and you have to
do the IACUC training, but myPhD lab was not, it was human
subjects research.
But that's funny.

Aarati (22:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I never had to deal with IACUC.

Arpita (22:45):
Okay.
Well, neither did Jose.
So.

Aarati (22:47):
Great.

Arpita (22:49):
Maybe not.
Yeah.
So he is trying to find primatesto do research on.
And so in an interview manyyears later, he said that he
traveled to Africa to purchasean animal and then he had to
take a two week return journeyon a ship with a gorilla.
And then he ended up bondingwith the gorilla.
And he was like, now I felt likeI couldn't operate on my friend.

(23:10):
And then he donated the gorillato a local zoo.
So...

Aarati (23:13):
Oh.

Arpita (23:14):
IDK.

Aarati (23:15):
Yeah.

Arpita (23:16):
He did get over it.
But yeah, later on this likekind of period in his life where
he was still kind of doing hisPhD became known as quote"Under
the fascist regime" end quote bysome of his....I'll just call
them enemies, because his workwas controversial, and people
who didn't really support himtried to imply that he was

(23:37):
associated with the fascistregime in Spain, even though he
actually did serve on theRepublican side, and he was
incarcerated, and he actuallyreally didn't support the
fascist regime at all, but theykind of just tried to like pin
him as that because they didn'tsupport the type of research he
was doing.
In 1946, he immigrates to theUnited States and he gets a

(23:57):
fellowship at Yale, and he's inthe Department of Physiology
under the direction of John F.
Fulton.
And Dr.
Fulton was a neurophysiologistand a medical historian, and he
was really well known for hisresearch on the cerebral cortex,
and he was like a reallypowerful mentor at Yale.
And so after Jose's fellowshipsin 1950, he accepts a position

(24:21):
as a professor in the physiologydepartment at Yale, and he's
still sort of working with Dr.
Fulton.
And this turned out to be reallypivotal in his career because it
gave him a lot of freedom andresources to basically do
whatever he wanted to experimentwith brain function.

Aarati (24:37):
Okay.

Arpita (24:38):
And then some context for the 50s is that this was
like a very key turning point inthe field of neuroscience.
So neuropharmacology, or givingdrugs to people, it was just
getting off the ground becausethere was a new drug that was on
the market calledchlorpromazine, which was one of
the very first anti psychoticdrugs and it was being given to

(25:00):
patients with schizophrenia.
And so the field in general wasbecoming very excited about,
one, what do we know about thebrain, and two, especially based
on disorders, which werecategorized very differently
than the way we think about themnow, which is what you brought
up earlier.
But like, how can we treat them?
And so especially neuroscienceand neuropharmacology were very

(25:23):
exciting to a lot of people.

Aarati (25:25):
I can totally understand that because the brain has its
own challenges, right?
Like, any drug that you give thebrain has to also cross the
blood brain barrier.

Arpita (25:34):
Right.

Aarati (25:34):
So that was probably like a huge challenge for them
at the time, like getting thedrugs to be small enough that
they could like cross thatbarrier and go through into the
brain and treat the tissuethere.
Yeah, that would have beentough.

Arpita (25:49):
And it was also just because no one really understood
any of the physiology at all.
So even designing a drug wasreally challenging.
I'm just like, what would it's

Aarati (25:58):
Because your brain is just so complicated.

Arpita (26:00):
Exactly.

Aarati (26:01):
Yeah.
Like,

Arpita (26:02):
What is the target for the drug?
Like, no one even knew.

Aarati (26:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What part of your brain controlswhat?
What part of your brain ismessed up right now?
Like, you know?
Yeah,

Arpita (26:10):
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So it's kind of like the generallandscape of where the story is
taking place.

Aarati (26:17):
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Aarati here.
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(26:40):
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(27:01):
Okay, back to the story.

Arpita (27:06):
So in 1956, Jose was in his early 40s, and he met
Caroline Stoddard.
She was 22, very pretty, and thedaughter of a Yale
administrator, and the two gotmarried within the year.
And then they had two childrenin the following years, Linda
and Jose Carlos.
And Caroline fits very squarelyinto the bucket of devoted

(27:31):
professor's wife, where she wasvery passionately devoted to her
husband's work and was even alittle awed by it.
And there was a New York Timespiece that I referenced for
researching this, and theyinterview her.
And the quote in the paper was,Caroline said, without irony,
that my husband is Quote,'TheGreat Delgado", end quote.

(27:53):
And I was like,

Aarati (27:54):
Hmm.

Arpita (27:55):
I was like, I love my partner very much and would
still never ever say thatbecause that is crazy.

Aarati (28:05):
Yeah, that's, I mean, but I do like my, my grandmother
is kind of the same way.
So I think, and I think this islike the same kind of generation
type of thing.
Yeah.

Arpita (28:19):
Because cuckoo bananas, I would never say that.

Aarati (28:21):
Yeah, it was, it's, I, I get, like, I've witnessed that
mentality firsthand from her,so, like I know what you're
talking about.

Arpita (28:32):
I was like, Okay.
Girl.
Yeah, That was my reaction whenI read it.

Aarati (28:37):
Yeah, there's a difference between love and
respect and then like,worshiping.

Arpita (28:41):
Worship?

Aarati (28:42):
Yeah.

Arpita (28:42):
Yes.

Aarati (28:44):
Yeah, there's, there's a line there.

Arpita (28:46):
Oh, okay, great.
I'm glad we agreed.
So, Caroline does worship herhusband and she didn't work, but
went to lab with Jose everysingle morning and then spent
the day in the office editingand typing papers.
And she said she loved beingwith someone, quote,"So
optimistic.
It's a constant circus.

(29:07):
It's fun to see what's comingnext.
The brain is a relatively newfield, and there's a tremendous
feeling of excitement," endquote.
And I'm like, I sort of get it,but also like, I think perhaps
chill, but that's just my ownopinion.

Aarati (29:20):
It's nice that she was involved, though.
Like, I'm, I'm glad that shewas.
able to help him in hisresearch, you know, and...

Arpita (29:27):
I think you're just a better person than me.

Aarati (29:29):
Well, you know, I think I've, I think I've just seen the
opposite side where people arenot involved at all or like
don't care.
And it's like...

Arpita (29:37):
That's fair.

Aarati (29:37):
You should care a little bit.
Right?
So

Arpita (29:40):
You should care a lot.

Aarati (29:42):
Care what your partner's doing with their life and, you
know, try to support them.
So I'm happy that happened.

Arpita (29:50):
You know what?
You're right.
A lot of the quotes are straightfrom this New York Times
article, which if anybody haslike 15 minutes to kill it is
such a weird article that

Aarati (30:01):
really?

Arpita (30:01):
Got published.
Yeah.
In, it was like a 1971 paper.
Um,

Aarati (30:08):
Okay.

Arpita (30:08):
So it was like from the New York Times Archive.
But I was like, I was like, whatis going on?
Yeah.
Which I think will becomeapparent in the rest of the
story.

Aarati (30:17):
Okay.

Arpita (30:18):
So in his research, Jose sought out a less invasive
approach to brain intervention.
And so he was really preferringelectrical stimulation over
traditional brain surgery anddrug administration.
So he felt that both drugadministration and brain surgery
were inefficient and imprecisebecause there's usually a lot of

(30:38):
consequences from brain surgery.
On a drug administration, youcouldn't be as precise.
So he was starting to experimentwith electrical signals to
invoke brain responses.
He first started with cats, andthen he later expanded to
monkeys and even humanpsychiatric patients.
And this research led to thedevelopment of the stimoceiver,
which is a device that allowedfor remote brain stimulation in

(31:01):
freely moving individuals.

Aarati (31:03):
Whoa! That sounds crazy.
Wait, remote brain stimulation?
Yes, like you press a remote andsomeone over there gets shocked
by...

Arpita (31:16):
It's like less of a shock, but it's more just like
adding in a electrical impulsethat stimulates the exact
cortical region that you'reinterested in.

Aarati (31:24):
Whoa.
Why is it remote though?
Like, why does it have to beremote?

Arpita (31:28):
It's remote because they're not tethered to
anything.
So, it's basically like they'reliving their day to day life and
they're doing all these things.
Actually, this is my nextparagraph, so I'm just going to
read that.

Aarati (31:37):
Okay, great.
Yes.

Arpita (31:37):
So, the stimoceiver was a wireless implanted device.
So, it allowed for remoteelectrical stimulation and
recording of brain activity,which allowed researchers to
observe behavioral changes infreely moving subjects.
So, basically, what they did wasimplant a small, like, super
tiny fiber, that had the abilityto receive and transmit radio

(32:01):
signal.
And there's like a remote,basically, somewhere away from
the person, and then when thatremote was pressed through radio
signal, they were able to thenactivate or stimulate that one
area that that fiber was beingplaced in.
So they did have to do somesurgery where they had to
implant the fiber.

Aarati (32:20):
Okay.

Arpita (32:22):
Imagine it almost like a precursor to A DBS or a deep
brain stimulator.
Okay.
It's like not quite as fancy,but yeah.
It's like the...

Aarati (32:29):
Interesting,

Arpita (32:30):
The grandfather of that.

Aarati (32:31):
It kind of reminds me of like those continuous glucose
monitors that some, uh, diabeticpatients have.

Arpita (32:37):
Yeah.

Aarati (32:37):
Where it's like inserted under your skin and then it...

Arpita (32:39):
Yep.

Aarati (32:40):
Reads your glucose levels and like sends that
information to your phone so youcan track that and then some I
think even release insulin ifyou're low, so

Arpita (32:50):
Oh like a pump.

Aarati (32:51):
Yeah.

Arpita (32:51):
Yeah, it is like it is similar to that.

Aarati (32:53):
So it's something like that?

Arpita (32:54):
Imagine that but it's actually providing a stimulus
also.

Aarati (32:57):
Gotcha.

Arpita (32:58):
Very similar.

Aarati (32:58):
Yeah.

Arpita (32:59):
So like he got really good at this.
So some of them were even assmall as a half dollar, which
allowed the subject full freedomof movement, and it basically
didn't limit any of theiractivities.
It wasn't in their visual fieldor anything like that.
So then it removed a lot oflimitations of traditional
laboratory experiments, whichallowed researchers to observe

(33:20):
the effects of brain stimulationin a way more naturalistic
setting.
And so, what this really did wasrevolutionize neuroscientific
research by providing a means toprecisely manipulate and study
brain function.
So today, similar methods thatwe'll use, especially in animal
studies, are optogenetics, whichis done by inserting genes that
encode light sensitive proteinsinto specific neurons.

(33:43):
So, by shining a particularwavelength of light, Into these
neurons, we can preciselyactivate or inhibit their
activity.
So if you like, you canparticularly turn on some
neurons or turn off some neuronsby basically, breeding these
animals with certain genes thatencode these proteins.

Aarati (34:01):
Optogenetics was huge in worm studies, by the way,
because...

Arpita (34:05):
Really?

Aarati (34:06):
Yeah, because the worms are transparent, so you don't
have to, like, you know, do anysurgery.
You can just, like, have a plateof worms that are genetically
altered with this, like, lightsensitive gene.
And we saw so many videos when Iwas in grad school of like the
light is off and all the wormsare just kind of crawling
normally

Arpita (34:25):
It's really cool.

Aarati (34:25):
And then you turn blue light or some, you know specific
wavelength of light you turnthat on and then all the worms
start like making little circlesbecause whatever gene that
they've been encoded with onlyallows them to make left turns.
And so...

Arpita (34:40):
Motility or something.

Aarati (34:41):
Yeah.
They've like messed with themotility so you can see like
blue light is on and they're alllike making little circles, blue
light is off and they startcrawling normally.
Blue light goes on, they makelittle circles.
We got all these videos likethat.
Yeah.
So it was, it was huge in wormstudies just cause it was like.
Oh, it's so easy, they'retransparent, so you don't have
to worry about, like, how do youget the light shining on the

(35:05):
actual brain.

Arpita (35:06):
Right, right, that's true.

Aarati (35:07):
Yeah.

Arpita (35:08):
So optogenetics is obviously way more precise
because you're coding it onspecific genes, so you can be
really precise about whichneurons they use, which is
obviously better.
And then other tools that wehave like brain computer
interaction or BCI can dosimilar things by enabling
direct communication between thebrain and external devices
because it translates neuralsignals into actionable

(35:29):
commands.
So these are like the, I guess,downstream or like more modern
sort of analogs to thestimoceiver So back to the
stimoceiver.
José found out that it could beused to stimulate emotions and
control behavior.
So, according to him, quote,"Stimulation of different points
in the amygdala and hippocampusprovide a variety of effects,

(35:51):
including pleasant sensations,elation, deep, thoughtful
concentration, super relaxation,colored visions, and other
responses.
Brain transmitters can remain ina person's head for life and the
energy to activate the braintransmitter is sent by radio
frequencies," end quote.
So, he's basically finding outthat.
He could stimulate sensationsand thoughts and emotions by

(36:14):
activating different parts ofthe brain.

Aarati (36:16):
How far apart do the remote and the patient have to
be?
Like, it's by radio wave, butlike...

Arpita (36:22):
Yeah, I actually think it's pretty far.

Aarati (36:25):
Oh, really?

Arpita (36:26):
Yeah, there is a later experiment which makes this kind
of obvious, um, in the sense of,like, I don't think you could
be....

Aarati (36:31):
Like, the patient can't be at home and he's in the
hospital, like, that's too far?

Arpita (36:35):
No, no, no, no.

Aarati (36:36):
Yeah.

Arpita (36:36):
No, I think that's too far, but I think you don't need
to be, like, next to each other.
Like, you can be decent...

Aarati (36:40):
You could probably be in the room next, like, the next
room over, maybe?

Arpita (36:43):
Probably.

Aarati (36:44):
Okay.

Arpita (36:45):
Probably.
So, like, I mean, for, like,it's pretty good, is basically
the summary.

Aarati (36:48):
Yeah.

Arpita (36:48):
And so, he found that it could not just elicit emotions,
but it could also elicitspecific physical reactions, so
these reactions, such as themovement of a limb or clenching
a fist, were achieved when Josestimulated specific parts of the
motor cortex.
So, when he had implants thatwere stimulated to produce a

(37:09):
reaction, he found humanpatients that were unable to
resist the reaction.
And one patient said, in thissame weird New York Times
article, quote,"I guess, Doctor,that your electricity is
stronger than my will." Endquote.
And so it's basically thatthey're involuntarily moving
because parts of their motorcortex are being activated.

Aarati (37:28):
It's like when you get hit with, like, at the doctor's
office with the little hammer,it makes you, yeah, the reflex
hammer, it makes you, like, popyour knee, yeah.
But it's happening electricallynow.

Arpita (37:39):
Yes, exactly, which is like really weird.
And one of his most promisingfindings was related to an area
in the brain called the septumvarum, which is a structure in
your limbic system and alsoknown as the part of the brain
that controls stress andemotions.
And so when stimulated, itproduced feelings of strong
euphoria, and they weresometimes strong enough to

(38:00):
overcome physical pain anddepression.
So he felt like this couldreally be helpful for some
psychiatric disorders.

Aarati (38:06):
Mm hmm.

Arpita (38:07):
In another experiment that he did, he stimulated a
certain point of the cortex in acat, and the cat began the
motions of licking every singletime.
And if the cat was sleeping, itstarted licking in its sleep,
and if it was awake, it lookedaround for a bowl of milk to
drink.
And if there was no bowl, itstarted licking its own fur, and
his hypothesis was that the catseemed determined to make sense

(38:30):
out of like what it feltcompelled to be doing.
So it's either like licking itsown fur or trying to lick the
food.

Aarati (38:35):
Yeah, it's like I'm licking something.
There's no food though, so Imust be trying to clean myself.
That's so interesting.

Arpita (38:41):
Super interesting.

Aarati (38:42):
Yeah.

Arpita (38:43):
He had another experiment with a monkey named
Ludi, and he found that when herred nucleus was electrically
stimulated, she consistentlyexhibited a complex, repeatable
sequence of behaviors, includingstopping her current activity,
turning her head, standing andcircling, climbing and
descending a pole, displayingaggression, and then becoming

(39:04):
friendly.
A pattern that occurred in theexact same order across 20, 000
stimulations.

Aarati (39:11):
Oh my goodness.

Arpita (39:12):
So he's finding that there's just like these really
clear outputs to like the partsof the brain that he is
stimulating.

Aarati (39:18):
That's like extremely specific.
It's like that one part of yourbrain is responsible for you
stopping what you're doing,climbing a pole, and then going
and being friendly, like.
In that order every time likethat's just crazy.

Arpita (39:34):
It is crazy and it's like also like a little bit
individual right so it's like ifthat part of your brain has been
plastic and mapped to do acertain thing it's probably not
the same between you and I butright exactly it's super
interesting.

Aarati (39:46):
That's so fascinating.

Arpita (39:47):
So his most famous experiment, which I think gets
to your, your point of how fardid you have to be, was when he
was in Cordova at a bullbreeding ranch.
So José very famously steppedinto the ring with a bull which
had a stimoceiver implanted inits brain and the bull fully
charged José and then Josépressed a remote control button

(40:10):
which caused the bull to stop inits tracks and stopped the
charge.

Aarati (40:13):
Oh my god.

Arpita (40:14):
This video exists and it's super blurry and grainy,
but it is legit.
He was kind of like a littletheatrical about this, and so he
taped the stunt.
And there's a photograph in saidNew York Times article.
And the region that he wascontrolling was the caudate
nucleus, which is chosen becauseof its involvement in

(40:35):
controlling voluntary movements,because it's kind of involved in
the motor cortex.
And he claims the stimuluscaused the bull to lose its
aggressive instinct, but lateron scientists think that it's
probably just because it waslike a motor thing.
It's not necessarily the bullwas not aggressive.
It was just incapable because ofa motor cortex block, which is
interesting.

Aarati (40:54):
Either way, I don't think I would ever have enough
faith to be able to do that orlike trust.

Arpita (40:59):
Yeah, it's crazy.

Aarati (41:01):
That's yeah, I could not.
Oh my goodness.

Arpita (41:03):
So this was by far like his most famous experiment and
he basically was able todemonstrate that stimulating the
specific area of the brain couldresult in a very clear output
and people were really excitedabout this, but also like people
were very weirded out and so itraised a lot of profound

(41:24):
questions about free will,autonomy, and the ethical
implications of such power.
And so, the scientific communitywas basically arguing for the
fact that there was a lot ofvaluable insights into neural
mechanisms and understandingbehavior and emotion, but it
also sparked a lot of intensedebate about the ethics of and
misuse of, or potential misuseof this technology.

Aarati (41:45):
Mm hmm.

Arpita (41:46):
Which is valid.

Aarati (41:47):
Yeah, like you can just implant this thing and make
people do whatever you want themto do or feel however they, you
want them to feel like.

Arpita (41:54):
Exactly.

Aarati (41:55):
Yeah, you need a whole, whole ethics committee around
that.

Arpita (41:58):
Yeah, like, yeah, multiple boards of ethics.

Aarati (42:01):
I mean, even with animals, like getting animals to
do what you want them to do hasto be really strictly regulated.

Arpita (42:07):
No, you're completely right.
And so even though this was themost widely mentioned experiment
in popular media, he actuallybelieved that a different
experiment, which involved afemale chimpanzee named Patty,
was his most significantexperiment.
So Patty had a stimoceiver thatwas linked to a computer that
detected a brain signal called aspindle, which was emitted by

(42:28):
the amygdala.
And when the spindle wasrecognized, the stimoceiver sent
a signal to the central grayarea of Patty's brain, which
controls behavioral responses tothreatening stimuli.
Which then produced an aversivereaction.
So in this case the aversivereaction was an unpleasant or
painful feeling.
And the result of this was anegative feedback loop to the

(42:50):
brain.
So within hours, her brain wasproducing fewer spindles as a
result of this negativefeedback.
And as a result, Patty becamequieter, less attentive, and
less motivated during behavioraltesting.
And then, once it was removed,went back to her normal self.
And so, even though this was notexactly ideal, he was
hypothesizing that this methodthat was used on Patty could be

(43:12):
used in others to help turn onand turn off and synchronize
unpleasant stimuli with pleasantstimuli to help people with
panic attacks, seizures, andother disorders controlled by
different parts of the brain.
So what he's basically trying todo is connect two parts of the
brain together.
So like when one part of yourbrain fires, it actually like
will stimulate a different partthat results in, in this case

(43:32):
was unpleasant emotion, butcould be pleasant emotion in a
different scenario.

Aarati (43:37):
So it could be that whenever someone was feeling
depressed or feeling anxiety orsome negative emotion, whenever
your brain registered, like, orwhatever part of your brain that
controlled anxiety or depressivethoughts fired, it would then

Arpita (43:54):
Trigger...

Aarati (43:54):
talk to the, yeah, trigger the electrical stimulus
that would actually make yourpart of your brain that was
happy and euphoric.

Arpita (44:02):
Yep.

Aarati (44:02):
Trigger and so then you're like, whenever you're
having depressive thoughts, itwould trigger your happy
emotions so that it would pullyou out of that.
Hopefully

Arpita (44:10):
Like override.
Basically.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Another question that he had waswhether or not electrically
induced rage in cats was agenuine emotional response, or
just a set of automatic physicalreactions.
So he conducted an experimentwhere he found that if he
stimulated regions of the brainknown to trigger rage, while the

(44:33):
cat was attempting to eat, theyquickly learned to avoid food,
suggesting the stimulation wasperceived as a punishing
experience.
However, if he still neededother brain areas, it just
caused a brief startle butdidn't deter the cats from
eating, which indicated the lackof an aversive emotional
response that was more of amotor response.
So you're starting todistinguish now here between

(44:53):
emotion and motor.

Aarati (44:56):
Yeah, again, like with the bull, like, did the bull
actually calm down or did itjust like physically stop?
Okay.

Arpita (45:02):
Exactly.
And I don't know that he reallycomes to a conclusion, but
that's what he's really tryingto parse out.
And so he does the studybasically on pain centers,
right?
He's trying to understand thisin cats.
And then another scientist, hisname is James Olds.
He's in Canada at McGill and hewas like, I wonder if that
there's pain centers, there'salso pleasure centers.

(45:22):
So he implants electrodes inrats and he is trying to
replicate Jose's experiments andhe finds out that the rat finds
the stimulation highly rewardingand he, like, repeatedly keeps
seeking it out for the behaviorto stimulate that region of his
brain, um, and so then herevealed the existence of that
In addition to pain centers inthe brain or unpleasant, there's

(45:45):
also pleasure centers in thebrain.

Aarati (45:46):
Makes sense.

Arpita (45:47):
That's the first time someone discovered that.
And so, Jose was like, Oh, cool.
Now there's pleasure centers.
I should totally try this onpeople.
And so he tried this on apatient with psychomotor
epilepsy.
So this 30 year old woman wasimplanted with electrodes.
And when this very specificpoint in her temporal lobe or
the pleasure center wasstimulated, she expressed strong

(46:10):
feelings of affection towardsthe therapist, a person who she
had never met previously, andshe displayed, like, these grand
emotions, and she, like, went upand, like, hugged and kissed
this therapist, and then as soonas the stimulation was turned
off, she, like, went back to hernormal self, and, like, didn't
even really register that thatwas weird or it happened.
So...

Aarati (46:28):
Wait, so she knew it was happening, she just didn't, she
just didn't think it was out ofthe ordinary that she would have
done that?

Arpita (46:36):
Correct.

Aarati (46:36):
Weird.
Weird.
Oh wow.

Arpita (46:38):
So weird.
So weird.

Aarati (46:39):
That's so weird.

Arpita (46:40):
And basically all of these are basically telling him-
and going back to some of hisinterests in psychiatric
disorders- he really felt thatbrain stimulation was less
invasive compared to traditionalbrain surgery.
So instead of removing braintissue, he could insert really
thin wires to monitor brainactivity and what he really
wanted to do was allow doctorsto pinpoint the source of

(47:02):
problems in the brain moreaccurately, which would then
allow for treatment, which wouldeither destroy that area by like
cauterizing it or excising it orsomething, or stimulating
another brain region tocounteract, like what we kind of
saw earlier, where you couldoverride a negative stimulus.
And that was kind of like whathe was hoping to achieve.

Aarati (47:21):
Oh, wow.
So this is a really powerfultool because it could
potentially show brain surgeonsexactly which area they need to
remove?
Or it could be a constant toolthat you just use every time
you're feeling somethingnegative or something bad is
happening?

Arpita (47:40):
Yes, I think it's more likely to be the second thing.
The first thing is a little bithard and I think was a lofty
goal of his because it did stillinvolve an implant, like you
still had to attach thisfilament to someone's brain and
then mm-hmm You didn't actuallyknow where it was coming from.
It would probably require you torinse and repeat a few times in

(48:00):
order to find the correct spot.

Aarati (48:02):
Yeah.

Arpita (48:02):
So I don't know how well it would've actually worked for
that, but mm-hmm I think thesecond thing is right in which,
okay, if you're able to detectsomething, you're maybe able to
override or stimulate adifferent part of the brain if
that is maybe more desirable.

Aarati (48:14):
Interesting.

Arpita (48:15):
That is my, my like editorialization.

Aarati (48:18):
That makes sense though, yeah, because I think even now
brain surgery is kind of like abit scary to think about, you
know, because it's not asforgiving, I think, than other
types of surgery, because ifit's like if you scrape just a
little bit extra or you miss alittle bit that you were
supposed to get, you know, itcan have really strange and kind
of unpredictable consequencessometimes.

(48:40):
So, yeah.

Arpita (48:42):
And if someone is a neurosurgeon in this audience,
let me know.
In fact, check me.
But like,

Aarati (48:48):
Yeah.

Arpita (48:49):
In my Grey's Anatomy days, there was definitely those
episodes where Derek Shepardwould operate on someone while
they're awake because he'sstimulating different parts of
their cortex and he's like,"Doyou feel this?
And do you feel this?
And do you feel this?" Becausehe's like trying to get to like
the right Part of the brain.
I'm like pretty sure that'strue.
But I mean also it's great.

Aarati (49:05):
I mean House did the same thing.
So

Arpita (49:07):
Okay, great.

Aarati (49:08):
I haven't I haven't watched Grey's Anatomy, but I
watched House and they theydefinitely had episodes Where
they were doing like the samething.
So...

Arpita (49:17):
Is House a neurosurgeon?
I thought he was...

Aarati (49:19):
No, he's a diagnostician but they

Arpita (49:21):
okay

Aarati (49:21):
like he runs the gamut like everything's wrong with
everybody and he's you know,he's definitely treated neuro
patients before.
Like,

Arpita (49:29):
sure,

Aarati (49:29):
just

Arpita (49:29):
for sure.

Aarati (49:30):
It makes for the drama, you know, so

Arpita (49:32):
No, of course, of course.

Aarati (49:33):
Yeah.

Arpita (49:34):
Okay.
So he's doing all this whilehe's a professor at Yale.
And while he was doing research,he also taught graduate
undergraduate students and fromhis students and his colleagues,
he was known to be prettyrestless and kind of eccentric.
I think we've kind of coveredthat and he was so passionate
about his work that some peoplecalled him the Evangelist of

(49:55):
Brain Stimulation.
And back to the New York Timesarticle, this reporter asks him
about his family and hispersonal life and he told
reporters quote,"What do youwant me to tell you?" And then
he got irritable and then hesaid, quote,"I don't want to
talk about my wife, my family,or my friends.
That is not science," end quote.

Aarati (50:12):
Oh my god.

Arpita (50:13):
Back to the earlier point of like, I couldn't find
anything about this man.
It took me so long to findanything about Caroline to begin
with.

Aarati (50:21):
Right.

Arpita (50:23):
This is the reason why.

Aarati (50:24):
Yeah, I found it like such a stark contrast too, where
he's like, what, what do youwant me to talk about my wife
and my kids for?
And then the wife is like, he'sa genius.
He's just so amazing.
Like, I'm like,

Arpita (50:37):
For real though.

Aarati (50:38):
You don't want to talk about how your wife supports you
in the lab and takes notes anddoes all that?
Like...

Arpita (50:43):
No, he did not.

Aarati (50:44):
Okay.

Arpita (50:44):
He did not.
He did not.
He did say this next quote,which is, I think this is why
people called him.
"The Prophet".Quotes, he said,"The human race is at an
evolutionary turning point.
We're very close to having thepower to construct our own
mental functions through aknowledge of genetics and
knowledge of the cerebralmechanisms which underlie our
behavior.

(51:05):
The question is, what sort ofhumans would we like ideally to
construct?" End quote.
Yeah, so this is why he was verycontroversial.
So

Aarati (51:14):
It's giving eugenics a little bit.

Arpita (51:17):
It's giving eugenics a little bit.
And so he's kind of doing thisagain against the kind of
backdrop and landscape of a lotof neuropharmacology.
And so he argued that drugtherapy controls patients by
altering their overall behaviorand often caused harmful side
effects, which include lethargyand cognitive impairment.

(51:37):
And he was really questioningwhether it's more ethical to
offer precise targetedstimulation to correct specific
neural malfunctions, but thiswas met pretty poorly by the
general medical and scientificcommunity because they were
like, it's giving eugenics.
It's basically the summary here.

Aarati (51:58):
Yeah.

Arpita (51:59):
And so, like we might expect at this point in the
story, he was met with a lot ofcriticism and people were not
super excited about some of thestuff that he was doing.
And so aside from the fantasyand some of the fears that were,
you know, spurred by some of theexperiments, there's also like a
lot of criticisms about histechniques and his methods.

(52:20):
So one Yale colleague said,quote,"There's something
idiosyncratic about the way heworks.
He doesn't follow the ordinaryrules or methodological rigor.
There must be the slow, doggedpart of science.
The careful checking ofobservations, the randomization
of experiments, and the estimateof the probability that your
findings weren't just due tochance." And then another

(52:42):
colleague said, quote,"Jose doesnot seem to have the patience to
fool around with any of that.
If he stimulates a monkey'sbrain and gets an expected
reaction, he gets bored.
He gets a lot of things startedand then he leaves other people
to clean up after him.
But, let's face it,technologically, the man's
incredible.
He's a real genius in apractical way, a sort of Thomas

(53:03):
Edison of the brain." End quote.
So.
It's mixed.
People are like, he crazy, andhe don't do anything right, but
also low key, he kind of diddiscover some cool shit, so
like, do we give him a pass?
Question mark.

Aarati (53:17):
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, it sounds like hemakes a big discovery, he gets
really excited by it, but thenhe has zero follow through to
like, yeah, actually fully testit, fully like cross all the T's
and dot all the I's.

Arpita (53:35):
Last quote from a colleague, Dan Snyder, said,
quote,"He's an inventor in thepurest sense.
You can't fault his creativity.
The man drops gems of ideas incasual conversations the way
some people shed bacteria.
That's part of the problem.
He hasn't time to beat anexperiment to death because he's
got so many good ideas that hemore or less has to be in ten
places at once," end quote.

(53:58):
I'm not going to lie, he soundsterrible.
Like, I wouldn't know if I'd bein lab with him.
He sounds like the worst.
Like, I don't know, like allthese quotes from colleagues
were all in that New York Timesarticle and it was just like.
Such a mixed bag where peoplewere like, high key, we hate
him, but like also low key, he'smaybe smart.

Aarati (54:13):
Yeah, he, he would be a terrible professor to study
under, because he wouldconstantly just be like, we
should do this, we should dothis, we should do this, and you
would just be like, I need topublish and get out of here.
That sounds, yeah, that would,that would be awful.
But it's like, yeah, he's, he'sbrilliant.

(54:34):
If you can ever get out of hislab, it would be a great feather
in your cap, but it's a big if.

Arpita (54:40):
Totally.
And so around this time, nowhe's been at Yale for several
years.
And in the seventies, the Nobelprize went to a man named Julius
Axelrod and his colleagues forthe catecholamine hypothesis of
depression andneuropsychopharmacology.
So he was really hoping that hisfield, electrical stimulation,

(55:01):
would be the one that took offin the 50s, but really what
ended up taking off wasneuropsychopharmacology, and
this is actually where westarted getting SSRIs, and like
that really took off, andelectrical stimulation was
really not something that thecommunity at large got behind,
even though he was helpful.
The controversy that surroundedhis work, that coupled with this

(55:22):
like growing awareness ofethical concerns with the
scientific community, led Joseto return back to Spain in 1974.
So the Spanish Minister ofEducation, a man named Villar
Palasi, asked Jose to helporganize a new medical school at
the University of Madrid.
And so he took this offer tothen get some space from Yale

(55:43):
and his work because it wasturning out that people were
really not behind the stuff thathe was doing.
And so he went to Spain with hiswife and his two children, and
he continued research andwriting, and he published
numerous articles and books thatexplore the complexity of the
brain function andconsiderations of
neuroscientific research, butyeah, ended up staying in Spain

(56:05):
for a big chunk of time.
And he wrote a book calledPhysical Control of the Mind
Toward a Psycho CivilizedSociety.
And in this book, he discussedhow we have managed to tame and
civilize our surrounding nature,arguing that it was now time to
civilize our inner being.
And this book has been thecenter of controversy since its

(56:27):
release, and people have hotlydebated this.
There's been a lot ofphilosophical debates about
this.
And his intent was to encourage,like, less cruelty and be more
benevolent and happier, but whatreally ended up happening was
hashtag eugenics.
So...

Aarati (56:44):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean, I feel like this is the
thing like I don't understandhow so many of the scientists
like Alfred Nobel also they'relike so smart, but they they're
like, I'm making whatever I'mmaking for peace and happiness
and everybody's living in thislike golden era of world peace
and you know, bounty.
But then it's like, yeah, butyou created a bomb though, or

(57:07):
you like created a way toliterally control people.
Like you don't, you don't seehow that could be used for
nefarious purposes.
Really?
You don't?

Arpita (57:15):
They don't see that.

Aarati (57:16):
Yeah.
So like, I understand yourintent is good, but like, how do
you not see the potential badthings that can happen?

Arpita (57:25):
I don't think he did.
I think he thought he was agenius.
I mean, like he had Carolinebeing like, You're basically
God.
So I mean...

Aarati (57:31):
That's true.

Arpita (57:32):
It wasn't like there was someone checking him.

Aarati (57:34):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's true.
But like, yeah, I don't I justdon't I am like, you're so
smart.
How do you not see it?
How do you not see it?
Like, I understand you have thebest of intentions.
Or maybe it's just like how Iwas brought up to always look at
like, what could possibly gowrong?
And how do I fix it before itgoes wrong?

Arpita (57:52):
That's not even on this radar.

Aarati (57:54):
Yeah.

Arpita (57:54):
I think things are going wrong constantly.
In his later years, José andCaroline returned to the United
States, and they ended upsettling in San Diego.
And he remained very active inthe scientific community until
he passed away in 2011, where heleft behind a legacy that
continues to provoke a lot ofdebate.
So his life and his achievementsreally are super complex, has a

(58:18):
lot of scientific innovation.
He really laid the groundworkfor a lot of electrical
stimulation work, which is stillused a ton in research today,
and it's something that wereally think about, but lots of
ethical questions as well.
He really did revolutionize thefield of neurophysiology and
gave a lot of basis to behaviorand emotion and how it could be
stimulated or turned off in alot of research.

(58:40):
And he also, like I said, raiseda lot of questions about the
ethical implications of Quoteunquote"mind control" and the
responsible use of scientifictechnology.
So if anything, it also justserves as a reminder of the
balance between scientificprogress, but then also ethical
responsibility, which is kind ofwhat you just said, which is you
really need to carefullyconsider potential consequences

(59:03):
of discoveries, which isimportant.
Exactly, like the Alfred Nobelepisode and even like Jack
Parsons and these people who arediscovering really cool things
where it's like you, you did,but also in someone else's
hands, what could this do?
And what is your ethicalresponsibility for discovering
this?

Aarati (59:19):
Yeah.

Arpita (59:19):
But yeah, it's a story of Jose Manuel Rodriguez
Delgado.

Aarati (59:24):
Well, I mean all your fears of it not being a great
story for your last one arecompletely unfounded.
That was amazing.
Good job.

Arpita (59:34):
Thank you very much.

Aarati (59:37):
That was so interesting.

Arpita (59:39):
The other one that I was going to do that I abandoned
was, Evan O'Neill Cain.
Have you heard of him?

Aarati (59:45):
No.

Arpita (59:46):
He was a railway surgeon, which basically meant
that he was operating outside ofa hospital because he was
basically like a The old traumasurgeon, but the reason he was
really famous is because heoperated on himself without
anesthesia to prove that itcould be done.
And so he basically set up allthese mirrors so that he could
like, had a mirror and was likeoperating on himself.

(01:00:07):
And he taught us a lot aboutemergency medicine and trauma
surgery because he was doing itwith like such little tools.
And so I thought that one wouldcould be really cool, but I just
couldn't find out enough abouthim.
So I did abandon that one.
But that was my other story.

Aarati (01:00:22):
Interesting.
Maybe a future episode.
If I can...

Arpita (01:00:24):
Maybe a future episode

Aarati (01:00:25):
find more information.
Uh, wow.
But that was, that was reallyinteresting.
Thank you.

Arpita (01:00:31):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening.
If you have a suggestion for astory we should cover or
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(01:00:53):
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