Dr. Santiago Ramon y Cajal: The Artistic Neuroscientist

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From wild child to a Nobel laureate! Aarati tells the story of the artistic scientist whose beautifully intricate drawings unraveled the secrets of the brain.

For more information and sources for this episode, visit https://www.smartteapodcast.com.

Episode Transcript

Arpita (00:11):
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast
where we talk about the lives ofscientists and innovators who
shape the world.
How are you, Aarati?

Aarati (00:20):
Um, I'm doing okay.
I am a bit sad.
This is our last episodetogether, so it's a bit,

Arpita (00:25):
I know.

Aarati (00:26):
Bittersweet been kind of dreading this day, like I have
to say goodbye.

Arpita (00:32):
Totally.
I know.
It is a very mixed bag offeelings for me too.
I was just walking home fromwork and was thinking about that
and I just mentioned to Logan,he's like, how do you feel?
And I was like, sad, but alsolike, I know it was the right
decision, but also definitelysad.
It's like there's a part of methat's just like so happy that

(00:53):
I.
We did this and it exists in theworld and

Aarati (00:56):
mm-hmm.

Arpita (00:56):
I'm so like proud of that.
But yeah, it's a mixed bag.
I'm very sad to not be able tosee you every, you know, every
other week and chat with you andtalk about the podcast.
It's gonna be strange for sure.

Aarati (01:06):
Yeah.
It's a very surreal kind offeeling, like, I can't believe
it's over.
Like, this is not over.
Like I'm gonna continue thepodcast, obviously, but it's
like the end of a chapter,beginning of a new, new era.
So it's, it's kind of a weirdfeeling for sure.

Arpita (01:23):
Yeah.
I also was looking back at ouremails and we have been working
on the podcast for exactly ayear and a half because we
started talking about this.
A few months before we actuallystarted recording and our
planning and coming up with thename and what our theme was
gonna be and all of that.
So yeah, it's been 18 months ofwork and a lot of episodes put

(01:47):
out and so many different topicscovered and I feel like we've
evolved so much too, like, youknow, posting on different
platforms and you've done thewhole YouTube thing, so it's
like there's been so much growthand progress too that I'm super
proud of.

Aarati (02:00):
Yeah.
And this is episode 30 too, soit's

Arpita (02:03):
Love that

Aarati (02:04):
It's like very nice round number.

Arpita (02:06):
Nice number to end on.

Aarati (02:08):
Yeah.

Arpita (02:08):
Yeah.
That's a lot of episodes.
Like it's

Aarati (02:10):
30 episodes is a lot.

Arpita (02:10):
30 episodes is a lot of episodes.

Aarati (02:12):
Yeah.

Arpita (02:13):
Um, yeah, what I was wondering, I was wondering as
like a.
I don't know, like as a finalepisode, do you have a favorite
that you've done or either oneof us?
Do you have a favorite episode?

Aarati (02:24):
Oh, that is a good question.
I really liked your episode onEttore Majorana.

Arpita (02:30):
Oh yeah.
How he went missing?
The true crime one.
Yes.

Aarati (02:34):
That was fascinating.

Arpita (02:36):
That one was crazy.

Aarati (02:37):
I'm...
that one still keeps me upsometimes.
I'm like, what happened to him?
Where did he go?
Did he really go to Argentina?
Like, I don't know.
That's so bizarre.

Arpita (02:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Like kind of faked his owndeath, but like also like didn't
fake his own...
I don't know.
That one was so weird.

Aarati (02:51):
Yeah, that was so weird that he, he kind just like up
and left and was like, I'm out.
Peace.
You know?
Yeah.
Um, yeah, that was a really goodone.
And it's one of our most popularones too, on YouTube.
So...

Arpita (03:03):
is it really?
Oh, that's awesome.

Aarati (03:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like it, especially recently, Ithink maybe because of like the
International Year of QuantumMechanics or something.
It, like, it recently got a hugespike spike on YouTube.

Arpita (03:15):
That's a...
that's amazing.
I that's a really good one.
Yeah.
I think mine are tied.
I love the Hoffman episode withhis bike ride and how he's just
like riding through the streetsand he's just like high out of
his mind and has no idea what'shappening to him.

Aarati (03:31):
Yeah.

Arpita (03:31):
Like I think about that often and I'm just like, that is
just so comical and like, I'mglad nothing bad happened to
him, but also like that is justso funny that this man was just
like super high and didn't know.

Aarati (03:40):
Yeah.

Arpita (03:41):
Um, and I think the other one that I really like is
the Jack Parsons episode becauseit is so crazy.
Like that episode is so crazyand that one is more recent, but
I just found that one soparallel to just like a lot of.
The shit show of current eventstoo, even though that happened
several years ago.

(04:01):
It's just like history doesrepeat itself, I think.

Aarati (04:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's kind of sad.
I was thinking about that toowith like the Dmitri Belyaev
episode and how he was like,

Arpita (04:12):
oh yeah.

Aarati (04:12):
Fighting against the government.
I was like, things have notmoved far.
It's very like, you know, thegovernment just kind of sayings,
we're not gonna fund thisresearch anymore.
And you know, and I'm just like,and he did it anyway and just
fought the system quietly.

Arpita (04:29):
Yeah.

Aarati (04:29):
So...

Arpita (04:30):
Yeah, it's true.
I know that was, I was thinkingabout too ones, those are, those
are really, those are good onesthat I, I, I think so too.
But yeah, happy to be here and Iknow you're gonna do an amazing
job with Maria and I can't waitto listen.
I can't wait to be a fan.

Aarati (04:45):
Yeah, I'm excited.
I'm excited for having her be onthe podcast and learn new
perspective and just like, justher kind of expertise that
she'll also bring

Arpita (04:56):
Definitely.

Aarati (04:56):
To the podcast.
So, yeah.
Um, yeah, I, I think it's gonnabe good.

Arpita (05:01):
I think that'll be like such a fun project for you guys
to do together.
And I think like your chemistryand relationship I'm sure will
just like, show through thepodcast and the way you

Aarati (05:09):
I hope so.

Arpita (05:09):
Do the story story.

Aarati (05:09):
I hope we're not too weird,

Arpita (05:11):
but I think that's kind of nice.
I kind of like it.
I feel like when people aretruly themselves, it's, that'll
really show through and she'lljust bring a more.
Like diversity of, um, likescientific background, which
will be really, really fun.
I feel like you and I share alot of similar similarities in
the types of topics that we'reinterested in, which is great
'cause I think it gives us a lotof stuff to talk about.

(05:31):
But I think it'll be really niceto have expertise in like a
different domain and the typesof stories she gravitates
towards.
So I'm super excited to listen.

Aarati (05:40):
I am a little afraid that if I like do another kind
of physics or engineering one,she's gonna know more about it
than I do.
Even after I research it, she'sgonna be like, I know all about
this.
Like, great.

Arpita (05:51):
You're gonna have your brother Arun in one ear, then
you're gonna have Maria in theother ear, and then you're gonna
be like, this is, I can never dolike the year of quantum
research again.

Aarati (05:59):
Yes.
Ever.
Like they know more about itthan I do.
I should just leave it to theprofessionals.

Arpita (06:05):
They're gonna be like, stick to the worms, Aarati.

Aarati (06:07):
Yeah.
For real, for real.
But yeah, it's gonna be, it'sgonna be interesting for sure.
But she.
She knows so much abouteverything that I feel like no
topic is safe.
So we'll see how that goes.

Arpita (06:19):
We'll see.
We'll see.

Aarati (06:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,

Arpita (06:23):
Oh, love it.
Well, um, I was gonna ask youwho are we talking about today,
but I actually do know who we'retalking about today because you
did spill the beans, so I veryexcited to hear this
neuroscience episode.
Cannot Wait.

Aarati (06:35):
Yes.
Yeah.
So I think it was so funnybecause last episode you were
talking about like the episodesthat stuck out in your mind that
you had done and how you werelike, I need to be better than
those episodes.

Arpita (06:51):
I forgot that I said that.

Aarati (06:53):
Yeah, like the, the episodes that you mentioned,
like Albert Hoffman and um, oh,who's the other one?
I.
The other psychedelic guy.

Arpita (07:04):
Oh, Sasha Shulkin.

Aarati (07:06):
Yes.
Those, those were the two thatlike I remember the most from
the ones that you've done.
And

Arpita (07:13):
Me too.

Aarati (07:14):
Or like they, they, like you were saying, they really
stuck out in your mind.
And I was like, that's so funny.
'cause those are the episodesthat I remember from you the
most also.
And then you were like, oh, I'mgonna do this like Spanish
neuroscientist because of that.
And I was like, oh no, that'swhat I'm gonna do too.
Like that's exactly how my mindwent.

(07:35):
But then you said Jose Delgadoand I was like, thank God it's
someone different.
Like it's someone different thanI had picked, but it was just so
funny'cause we were like on suchthe same, you know, wavelength
on that.
And I was like, I need to sendher off with something good and
something that she won't hate mefor.
So no quantum mechanics.

Arpita (07:54):
No quantum mechanics, no physics, no math.
Like thank you so much.

Aarati (07:58):
Yes.
And then, so I'm like you said,I'm doing Santiago Ramon y
Cajal, and when I was readinghis story, I was like, this is
so good.
She's gonna enjoy this story somuch.
It's so,

Arpita (08:09):
Oh, great.

Aarati (08:09):
Fun.
It's so amazing.
So he actually wrote his ownautobiography and it was
hilarious.
It was just so fun to read.
Um, it was like 600 pages, soquite long.

Arpita (08:22):
You read 600 pages of his biography?

Aarati (08:25):
I skimmed 600 pages.

Arpita (08:27):
Okay.
I was like, Jesus Christ.
Well, first of all, a 600 pagebiography is.
I don't know if I'd be able tofill 600 pages of my life.
Like what?

Aarati (08:35):
I know, right?

Arpita (08:36):
Like what, like what did I do?
Like, probably nothing thatexciting.
And then, yeah, on top of that,then making people read 600
pages of your life is crazy.

Aarati (08:44):
And it's so funny'cause he was like fully aware of that
and towards the end of it he waslike, man, I've kept, I've, I've
done too much.

Arpita (08:52):
You know, we love a self-aware queen, like, you
know?
That's great.

Aarati (08:56):
Yeah.
So he was, it was just such apleasure to read and so I was
like, I'm trying to cut thisdown.
I'm trying to make it, you know,shorter.
But he, his life was just so funand amazing and I was like,
Arpita's just gonna love thisepisode.
Hopefully.
Um, okay.

Arpita (09:09):
I'm, I'm sat.
I'm ready.

Aarati (09:11):
Yeah.
Alright, so we are doingSantiago Ramon y Cajal, who is
like the father of neuroscience.
And part of the reason I chosehim also was because he's known
for his artistic drawings ofneurons, which is part of
science communication and whatthis podcast is also about.
And so I just thought it waslike a really good one to end

(09:33):
on, a science communicator andsomeone who became famous for
his artistry and his beautifuldepictions of the brain.

Arpita (09:40):
Totally agree.

Aarati (09:41):
Yeah.
Okay, let's go.
So Santiago was born in a towncalled Petilla De Argon in
Navarre, Spain.
And I should have mentionedthere's gonna be so much Spanish
in this episode, so forgive me,please ahead of time.

Arpita (09:55):
You know, take Spanish any day over like French or
German.
I feel like there's been so manylanguages where I'm just like.
Sorry.
Sorry to the Germans.
Sorry to the French.

Aarati (10:05):
Yes.
Like, sorry, sorry.
Yeah, so I'm gonna try my best.
Um, and in some places Iactually like wrote down
phonetically what it's supposedto sound like.

Arpita (10:15):
Wow.

Aarati (10:15):
So hopefully that'll help.

Arpita (10:16):
So impressive and prepared.

Aarati (10:17):
We'll see.
We'll see.
I'll probably butcher it anyway,but, um, so Santiago was born on
May 1st, 1852.
His mother was Antonia Cajal andhis father Justo was working as
a surgeon.
After two years, the couple hada second son named Pedro, who
will become important later on.

(10:38):
The family moved around a lotdepending on where Justo was
working.
And during this time, the couplehad two more children, both
daughters, Pabla and Jorga.
So at this point they have fourkids, and Justo has earned
enough money working as asurgeon to fulfill his life's
ambition of going to medicalschool.

(10:59):
So he leaves his wife and fourchildren to go to Madrid to
study medicine.

Arpita (11:05):
Wait, sorry, wasn't he a surgeon?

Aarati (11:07):
Yes, but this is like the 1800s.
So this is like Lister time,like pre...

Arpita (11:13):
Got it, got it, got it.

Aarati (11:13):
Pre-Lister time.

Arpita (11:14):
So surgeon, surgeons and doctors are not, that's not a
circle.
Those are two....

Aarati (11:19):
Yes.

Arpita (11:19):
Okay.
Understood.
Okay.

Aarati (11:21):
Yes.

Arpita (11:21):
I'm back.

Aarati (11:21):
Yes.

Arpita (11:22):
For a second.
I thought I hallucinated.
I was like, wait,

Aarati (11:25):
No.
Yes.
He's a surgeon and now he'sgoing to medical school, so.
Okay.
Okay.
Um, so he leaves his wife andfour kids to go to Madrid to
study medicine.
And Santiago, who is the eldestchild, is probably four or five
years old now.
So I'm just imagining like hispoor mother who has...

Arpita (11:44):
Oh my god.

Aarati (11:45):
Four literal babies and she's handling all of them by
her.
Herself, you know, crazy.

Arpita (11:50):
Goodbye.

Aarati (11:50):
Um, yeah.
But he succeeds.
Justo succeeds.
He gets his medical degree andhe gets a position as a
community doctor in a villagecalled Ayerbe.
And so the family settles therefor a while, and this is where
Santiago spent most of hischildhood.
So Justo had had a tough life,um, and he basically pulled

(12:10):
himself up through hard work anddiscipline.
And because of this, he was veryauthoritarian and very tough on
his kids.
He had very high expectationsfor them.
He wanted both his sons Santiagoand Pedro to follow in his
footsteps and study medicine,but neither of them were like
model citizens.
They were both kind of crazykids.

(12:31):
Like boys will be boys.
There's that thread runningthrough this whole story.

Arpita (12:36):
Like from the Nobel episode.

Aarati (12:39):
Yes, absolutely.
Like we're in that exact samevein.
So they were both prettyterrible students.
Santiago especially had a hardtime because a lot of what was
taught in school was stuff thathad to be learned through
memorization and he had a prettybad memory.
He was also very mischievous andaccording to his relatives, he

(13:01):
was quote,"a restless littledevil, willful and unbearable."
End quote.

Arpita (13:08):
I love,

Aarati (13:10):
I have written down some of like the things, like some of
the antics that he got up to.

Arpita (13:14):
Oh dear.

Aarati (13:14):
There were so many, so I tried to like condense it to the
best ones.
So one of his earliest memorieswas going into a weaver shop and
tangling all of their threadsand shuttles.
Later when he was three or fouryears old, he started hitting a
horse until it kicked him in theforehead, causing him to fall
unconscious and bleed so badlythat people thought he had died.

Arpita (13:37):
Oh, so my God.

Aarati (13:39):
Yeah, he was unconscious for like a couple days.
People thought he was a goner.

Arpita (13:43):
A couple days?! Jesus.

Aarati (13:46):
Yeah.

Arpita (13:46):
Oh my God,

Aarati (13:47):
yes.
When he was eight, his familymoved to Ayerbe, like I said,
and there he and the local boyswould play sports, run races,
get into fights, but also throwstones at each other and at
street lamps and steal fruitsfrom people's orchards.
Um, they would play war games orlike hunting games.

(14:09):
And Santiago was the best atmaking armor and weapons from
cardboard and tin cans.
And he was especially known forhis arrows because his arrows
went the furthest and didn't gooff course they flew.
True.
Which I'm like, that's, that'sgreat.
Like you can make good arrowsout of tin cans and cardboard.

(14:31):
Fantastic.
But one saving graces.
He did put balls on the end ofthe arrows so that none of the
kids or animals that they shotat would actually get hurt.
So that's good.
That's nice of him.
But the worst one was by thetime he was 11, he had developed
a fascination for boys will beboys gunpowder naturally.

Arpita (14:52):
There it is.

Aarati (14:53):
Yep.
So he built a cannon using a logthat he found that was left over
from some construction workthat, he drilled a hole into.
And when it was complete, he andhis friends decided to test it
by aiming it at a neighbor'sorchard gate and completely
obliterated it.
So then the neighbor complainedto the mayor of the town and the

(15:16):
mayor sent an official toSantiago's house to teach him a
lesson and took him to jail.

Arpita (15:22):
Oh my God.
And he's a child?

Aarati (15:24):
Yeah, he's 11.
But his father fully supportedthis because his father, again,
is like this very strictauthoritarian.
So he fully supported theimprisonment and Santiago ended
up spending three or four daysin jail.
And by the end, he said he wassincerely sorry and remorseful
for what he had done.
So he's like, yeah, I learned mylesson.

(15:46):
But his takeaway apparently waslike, don't aim at people's
property.
So he built another cannon andhe just shot it at the side of a
hill this time so that itwouldn't actually destroy
anyone's property, but stillmessing with gunpowder.

Arpita (16:02):
Okay.
Marginally better, I suppose.

Aarati (16:05):
Yeah, a little bit better.
He also loved animals.
He would spend a lot of timeroaming around the countryside,
exploring nature.
He's particularly loved birds,and he would keep a bunch of
them that he raised and caredfor.
And around this time is when healso picked up an interest in
art.
But unfortunately, his parentsconsidered drawing and painting

(16:28):
to be a quote unquote"sinfulamusement".
So he could only draw when hewas outside of the house when no
one could see him, and he woulddraw, like, whatever interested
him, basically.
And at that age it was thesescenes of mythical Greek and
Roman heroes, like ships sinkingthe oceans.

(16:48):
War scenes, like all of these.

Arpita (16:50):
Love it.
Yeah.
Very cute.
Yeah.

Aarati (16:52):
Yeah.
Those kinds of things.

Arpita (16:53):
It sounds, it sounds par....
It sounds par for the course.

Aarati (16:56):
Yes.

Arpita (16:57):
From...
based on what we know so far.

Aarati (16:58):
Yeah.

Arpita (16:58):
This is making me laugh 'cause I feel like his parents
are giving like, stereotypical,like Asian parents.
They're like, you have to go tomed school.

Aarati (17:04):
Mm-hmm.

Arpita (17:05):
Don't draw.
Like, you gotta do these thingslike stay, behave, like don't
blow things up.
Yeah, yeah.
Like discipline.

Aarati (17:11):
And he's like, I wanna be an artist!

Arpita (17:13):
Yeah.
I'm a free spirit.
Yeah.

Aarati (17:16):
Yeah, exactly.
Um, that's exactly what'shappening.
So he also enjoyed drawing someof the apostles like St.
James who was.
The patron saint of soldiers andpilgrims and who legend has, it
was a warrior himself,apparently.

Arpita (17:33):
Hmm.

Aarati (17:33):
So I can totally see that, like, fitting in with

Arpita (17:36):
mm-hmm.

Aarati (17:36):
What he was interested in.
One day he stole a picture ofSt.
James from the church so that hecould practice drawing it.
And his father found out and waslike, you know, I don't really
approve of you drawing.
I can't believe you stolesomething for the church but
let's see if you actually haveany potential.
So he wanted to show Santiago'sdrawings to an artist and kind

(17:59):
of get them appraised.
And keep in mind he's still like12 at this point.
But there weren't really anyartists in their town.
So his father settled for a guywho had been hired to whitewash
the church, and Santiago showedthe pictures that he had drawn
to the whitewash painter, andthe painter was like, wow, this
sucks.

(18:20):
Like your proportions are allwrong.
This kid is never gonna be anartist.

Arpita (18:24):
Interesting.
Okay.

Aarati (18:26):
And I have to say like I disagree strongly because in his
autobiography he includedpictures of like his terrible
drawings when he was 12.
And I'm like, dude, I can't drawlike that.
That's so good.

Arpita (18:39):
Okay.
But this guy was whitewashing abuilding, right?
Like you can't mess that up.

Aarati (18:43):
Yeah, exactly.

Arpita (18:45):
Like, well first of all, it's not even paint, it's
whitewash.
And second of all, it's like.
What, what, yeah.
What skill does that take?

Aarati (18:52):
Yeah, exactly.
But I was, I was kind of like, Iwonder if his father paid the
white washer or something to saythat because

Arpita (19:00):
That's actually really funny.
That's really funny.

Aarati (19:03):
Yeah, because I was like, these are really good.
But Santiago believed him andwas super disappointed that, you
know, he got that kind ofnegative feedback.
So he thought maybe I shouldgive up on art and focus on a
medical career like my dad wantsme to.
And in his autobiography hewrote quote,"Farewell to
ambitious dreams of glory,illusions of future greatness! I

(19:26):
must exchange the magic paletteof the painter for the nasty and
prosaic bag of surgicalinstruments.

Arpita (19:33):
What?

Aarati (19:35):
Yeah, like his whole autobiography is written like
this.
And so I was just like...

Arpita (19:39):
I can't believe you...
I can't believe you believe youcommitted to 600 pages of that.
That would've driven me insane.

Aarati (19:43):
I was having a great time.
I was like, this guy is just sofunny.
Like, he's so over the top.
He's so dramatic.
And like for all of that.
He didn't give up on art at all.
He just, he was, he said allthat.
And then he just continued todoodle in like the margins of
his school papers, drawcaricatures of his teachers.
Like he didn't, he didn't giveup at all.

(20:04):
I was like, you were just like,"oh, woe is me".
And now you're still doing it.
So

Arpita (20:10):
You're like, I don't care at all about that.

Aarati (20:12):
Yeah.
So surprise, surprise, hisgrades did not improve because
he's doodling everywhere.
Despite the fact that histeachers and his father were so
hard on him.
His parents kept transferringhim to different schools, hoping
that somewhere there would besome teacher who would be able
to rein him in.

(20:33):
But he continued getting intofights and playing pranks and
just barely scraping by inschool.
Somehow in 1864, he manages topass his final school exams.
And he was like, yes, finally,I'm free.
I can enjoy the summer.
And his dad was like, okay, noenough fooling around, no
replaying, no more drawing.
You need to sit down andseriously study if you're gonna

(20:55):
become a doctor.

Arpita (20:56):
Very hyper fixated on this.
I see.

Aarati (20:58):
Yes.
Like you need to become aphysician.
You need to become a doctor.
And so Santiago saw that.
He was like, I don't think I cantalk him out of this.
Um,

Arpita (21:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do we have a reason why, otherthan he was a doctor?
Was it like just a respectiveprofession or just like did, was
there, like did he have a reasonbecause he clearly doesn't have
potential?

Aarati (21:20):
I think Justo, the father was just like, I've
worked so hard to become adoctor and I want my sons to
like also be successful and not,you know, have a hard life, I
guess.
And so they should also bedisciplined and work hard.
It takes hard work to succeed inlife.

Arpita (21:36):
Mm-hmm.

Aarati (21:36):
Um, and he just wanted, he was just like, this is a
pathway to success and I want, Iwant them to be successful.
I think that was the main thing.

Arpita (21:43):
Interesting.
Okay.

Aarati (21:44):
Yeah.
So Santiago's like, okay, Idon't think I can like, you
know, talk him out of this one.
So he's like, okay, fine, I'llstudy, but like, if you really
want me to be serious about it,I need to be left alone in
absolute silence somewhere whereno one can bother me.
And so his father agreed to lethim use a small room next to the

(22:04):
barn that they had, and the roomhad roof access.
So Santiago built a little quoteunquote confessional or niche
out of boards.
And he would go up there and hewould hide behind the boards,
spending most of his timedrawing.
So he was not studying at all.

Arpita (22:23):
So he created like a secret room in his secret room?

Aarati (22:26):
Yeah, basically.

Arpita (22:27):
Okay.

Aarati (22:27):
He like went up on the roof, but like, because he was
on the roof, if anyone came outto the barn to check on him, he
could see them coming.
And so he would quickly go backdown into the

Arpita (22:37):
Wow.

Aarati (22:37):
Into the room where he was supposed to be studying.
Yeah.

Arpita (22:40):
That is so funny.
It's so mischievous.

Aarati (22:43):
Yeah, I know, right?
So one day while he's up on theroof, he happens to look over
into his neighbor's window, intotheir library, and it's like
full of all of these novels,like the Three Musketeers and
Don Quixote and Robinson Crusoand Santiago's like, oh my gosh,
my father never lets me read anyof these.

(23:03):
They're all like fantasy fictionkind of books, which is again,
like this frivolous...

Arpita (23:08):
Not serious.
Yeah, yeah.

Aarati (23:09):
Like you can't read fiction books in our house.
So Santiago gets super excitedand he's like, okay, I need to
somehow read these books.
So he works out a plan that inthe morning when everyone's
asleep in the house, he wouldsneak through the window of his
neighbor's house, quietly borrowa book, read it, and then place
it back carefully when he wasdone.

(23:32):
And he went through like a bunchof his neighbor's library like
this without getting caughtever.
So he wrote quote"At lastthough, by illicit means I made
the acquaintance of the splendidcreatures of the imagination,
superb and magnificent beings,all energy and determination
with overgrown hearts.
Shaken by superhuman passions.

Arpita (23:53):
I can't believe you read 600 pages of that.
I'm so annoyed.

Aarati (23:59):
You know, this is the person who had to learn about
Shakespeare when she was like insixth grade and had a hard time
with it.
I finally got it by eighthgrade.
I was like, I finally understandwhat he's talking about.

Arpita (24:11):
It really is such a different language.
I feel like in high school wehad to read, shoot, what is that
one?
Epic?
Um,

Aarati (24:21):
The Odyssey or something?

Arpita (24:22):
No, it wasn't The Odyssey.
It was like another one likethat.
And I remember being like, what?
What is happening?
What are the words that I amlooking at right now?
Like this makes no sense to mewhatsoever.
And I...

Aarati (24:35):
Yeah.

Arpita (24:35):
And that was like peak SparkNotes era.
I was just like, Spark Notes-ingthe hell out of this.
I was just like, yeah, tell me,help me, like explain this to
me.

Aarati (24:45):
Yeah.

Arpita (24:45):
Like this is ChatGPT

Aarati (24:47):
Yes.
Yeah.
No, it was really funny when Iwas in school and I was like
learning Shakespeare and stuffapparently my teachers got it
into their head that I was tooshy, which I was.
And they're like, like, youknow, the answers to stuff, you
just don't raise your hand likeyou should, you should raise
your hand more.
And I'm just like, yeah.
But so then in an effort to getme out of my shyness, they

(25:10):
started calling on me at random.
Like even when...

Arpita (25:13):
oh, that's so mean.

Aarati (25:14):
Yeah, I know.
And I was just like...
and so it kind of worked becausethen I would like raise my hand
for questions that I absolutelyknew the answer to so that I
wouldn't be embarrassed by likenot knowing the answer.
'cause that was really what washolding me back is like, what if
I get it wrong?

Arpita (25:28):
Totally, totally.

Aarati (25:29):
You know?
Yeah.

Arpita (25:30):
So you, like, you don't have to explain that to me.
I, I was also a shy kid, like.

Aarati (25:34):
Yeah, yeah.
But like, when it came toShakespeare, I was like, I have
no clue what's going on.
Oh, yeah.
And they would like call on meand they would be like, Hey, you
wanna take a stab at like whatthis passage means?
And I'm like.
No thank you.
I have no idea.
Yeah.
What is happening?
And they were like so convincedthat I knew and I'm like, I
legit don't know.

(25:55):
No idea what is going on.
And it took me like two years tofigure out what, what
Shakespeare was talking about.
So...

Arpita (26:03):
it's fair.
It's a fair, yeah, it's a fairquestion.
I don't...

Aarati (26:06):
So yeah, it, it's kind of like I had to switch that
part of my brain back on when Iwas reading this.
I was like, we're back.
We're back in that era.
We're back in that like,

Arpita (26:14):
That makes sense.

Aarati (26:15):
Yeah.
Okay.
So.
I didn't know this, butapparently in the mid 1800s the
normal age to attend universityfor a bachelor's degree was
somewhere between 13 and 16years old.
Because I was reading this andit's like by the time he's 14,
Santiago is in his third year ofhis bachelor's degree.
And I'm like, excuse me, what?
Like he's 14 and he's...

Arpita (26:38):
Interesting.

Aarati (26:38):
He's doing his bachelor's degree?
And I was like looking that upand apparently that's normal.
So

Arpita (26:43):
I guess'cause they didn't really go to high school.

Aarati (26:45):
Yeah.

Arpita (26:46):
Right?
Because like they didn't reallygo to high school.
Like high school ended muchearlier.
So then if they went to college,it was probably also earlier.

Aarati (26:52):
Yeah, like I was, I was so confused for a bit there.
'cause I was like, wasn't hefailing?
Like all his courses?
How is he doing his bachelor'swhen he's 14?
But yeah, he's doing hisbachelor's.
He's barely scraping by again.
And so his father is seeing himlike struggling at school.
And so he made Santiago leaveschool to work as an apprentice
at a barbershop.

(27:12):
And Santiago wrote quote"Intaking such an extreme decision
with regard to me, my fatheraimed at two ends for the
present to tie me closely,depriving me of the leisure
necessary for rambles and raidsand besides to teach me a trade
which might someday make aliving for me in case my ability
should prove irremediable orshould I be prematurely

(27:33):
orphaned.

Arpita (27:35):
Okay.
A little dramatic, but

Aarati (27:36):
Yeah, he was, he's very dramatic.

Arpita (27:39):
Yeah, there's a lot of drama.

Aarati (27:41):
So although Santiago was initially upset by this, he
eventually grew to like it atthe barbershop.
He met a lot of interestingpeople and he was able to
impress the barber with hiscaricature drawings of political
figures.
So the barber took a liking tohim and started to let him off
early when work was slow.
So he just like started foolingaround anyway.

Arpita (28:00):
Question.
This is like barbershop, likethey do like surgeries, right?

Aarati (28:05):
I don't think so.
I think it was like a haircut,like...

Arpita (28:07):
Truly just a hair...
Okay.

Aarati (28:09):
Yeah, I believe so.
I don't think Santiago's fatherwould've trusted him enough at
this point.

Arpita (28:14):
Okay.

Aarati (28:14):
To do like actual surgical stuff.

Arpita (28:16):
Okay, so not like the more antiquated flavor of
barbershop.

Aarati (28:21):
Yeah, exactly.

Arpita (28:22):
Okay.

Aarati (28:23):
I don't think so.
I didn't read anything about it,just said barbershop and so I
was like, I assume it's justhair.

Arpita (28:29):
Okay.

Aarati (28:29):
I'm assuming, So, yeah, so it didn't really work like
Santiago's still fooling around,um, because the barber let him
off early.
So, Santiago's father's like,okay, clearly that didn't work,
so let's try something moreboring.
Let's try a cobbler.
So he made Santiago do this appapprenticeship at the cobblers.

(28:50):
And he had a terrible time of itbecause he was given like the
most boring jobs of likesweeping and like organizing
stuff.
And he was just like, this is sohard.
And it wasn't as easy to charmthe cobbler as it was the
barber.
So Santiago's like, I guess I'mjust gonna actually have to put
in effort and you know, try toget out of the jobs of sweeping

(29:13):
and doing all this boring stuff.
Um, because.
Making boots and making shoes isat least a little more
interesting than sweeping thefloor.
So let's aim for that.
You know,

Arpita (29:21):
I see, yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Aarati (29:23):
So after a year, Justo decided his son, Santiago had
settled down enough to return toschool.
But Santiago said he would onlygo back to school if he was
allowed to enroll in drawingclasses alongside his scientific
classes.
And so Justo was like,

Arpita (29:41):
Way, way to...
Way to stick up for yourself.

Aarati (29:43):
Yeah.
Way to negotiate.

Arpita (29:43):
Stick it to the man.
Yeah, exactly.

Aarati (29:45):
Yeah.
So Justo reluctantly agreed.
And so Santiago's like, yes.
Awesome.
So he goes back to school withthis like renewed enthusiasm.
And now because of this, he'sactually doing pretty well in
his classes because he has somemotivation.
His only slip up was when hecouldn't resist drawing a
caricature of one of hisprofessors on a wall and nearly

(30:07):
got thrown out of the school

Arpita (30:08):
On the wall?
Oh my goodness.

Aarati (30:10):
Yeah, there was apparently like a big blank
white wall, and he was like mothto a flame.
Like, I need to fill that withsomething.

Arpita (30:18):
Oh, my...
but on a wall.
Like not even just in your likenotebook.

Aarati (30:24):
No.
Um, and it was like apparentlylike life size and everything.

Arpita (30:29):
Oh, jesus.

Aarati (30:30):
So he almost got thrown out of school.
His father managed to make somecalls and made them let Santiago
stay.
And once again, he was just.
Barely able to pass his finalexams and finish his bachelor's
degree.
Hi, everyone.
Artie here.
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(30:50):
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Back to the story.
So that summer Santiago'sfather's like, okay, finally we

(31:34):
can start training you to be aphysician.
Like really one track mind thisguy.

Arpita (31:39):
Yeah.
Seriously.

Aarati (31:40):
So Justo starts to teach Santiago anatomy and he believed
that the best way to learnanatomy was seeing it firsthand
rather than looking at it inbooks.

Arpita (31:51):
Mm-hmm.

Aarati (31:51):
So the way they did this was Santiago and his father
snuck into a deserted cemeteryone night so that they could
collect bones to study.

Arpita (31:59):
I I had a, I had a feeling you were gonna say this.
Yeah.
Please keep going.

Aarati (32:03):
Yeah.
But this is actually whatfinally awoke Santiago's
interest in science and medicinebecause the bones were something
he could actually see and touchand observe.
It wasn't like memorization.
And so because of that, heactually like started to pick
information up and like rememberit and retain it.
And so

Arpita (32:21):
Interesting.

Aarati (32:21):
So his father is like, you're teachable.
Like this is working.
You know, so he is so happy tosee that Santiago's finally like
gotten an interest in scienceand medicine.
And so he's like, great, this isa viable career for you.

Arpita (32:40):
We can do this.

Aarati (32:40):
We can enroll you...
Yeah., we could do this.
We can enroll you in medicalschool.

Arpita (32:44):
Just thinking about cadaver lab gives me the
heebie-jeebies.
I just like, just like,

Aarati (32:49):
Like, ugh.

Arpita (32:50):
And like, I get it.
Like I understand the purposeand I think the consensus is
that it is, people love it, Ithink in

Aarati (32:57):
Mm-hmm.

Arpita (32:57):
Like the general consensus is that it's really
helpful and people really likeit and really like learning
hands-on.

Aarati (33:04):
Yeah.

Arpita (33:05):
I acknowledge that.
But also it's, it is...

Aarati (33:08):
yeah.
This is something you had to dofor PT school though, right?
Like,'cause I did not have to dothis I

Arpita (33:13):
had to do it for pT school, and it was like the
first class on the first day ofschool and I was like,

Aarati (33:17):
Mm-hmm.

Arpita (33:18):
What have I done?
I was like, I was like...

Aarati (33:20):
what did I get myself into?

Arpita (33:22):
I was like, what have I done?
And you know, like the reallydisgusting thing is, is that
formalin is an appetitestimulant.
And so yeah, it's horrible.
And so you actually leave andyou are starving, which is like
so gross.
That's so you leave and you'relike ravenous, like you just
like, oh,

Aarati (33:42):
That's so weird.

Arpita (33:43):
Know that, isn't that so gross?
Like I feel like it should bethe opposite.

Aarati (33:45):
That's such a like weird paradox, like...

Arpita (33:48):
it is.

Aarati (33:49):
To go through

Arpita (33:50):
And it's like something about the smell or like
something about I can't, I don'tknow what it's exactly, because
like you're not completely, Imean you're obviously not eating
anything, but you're still like,some part of it is entering your
body.

Aarati (34:01):
Yeah.

Arpita (34:01):
And it is, it's an appetite stimulant.

Aarati (34:04):
Weird.
That's so weird.

Arpita (34:05):
Yeah, it's horrible.

Aarati (34:06):
That would mess with my head so much.

Arpita (34:07):
It, it does.

Aarati (34:08):
Oh my gosh.

Arpita (34:09):
Can, can confirm.

Aarati (34:10):
That's so bizarre.

Arpita (34:12):
Um, anyway, I'm glad it was a positive experience for
Santiago.
Please continue.

Aarati (34:15):
Yes.
Yes.
So Santiago enrolls in medicalschool at the University of
Zaragoza and here thanks toexcellent professors he did
pretty well actually.
His only thing that held himback was that he was a pretty
nervous speaker.
So like if a professor called onhim to answer a question, he
couldn't find the right words alot of the time because he got

(34:37):
really nervous.
But over overall, he did prettywell.
His father also got a positionas an anatomy teacher at the
university.
So Justo and Santiago spend alot more time together, like you
said, dissecting cadavers andlearning about the body.
And now actually Justo wasreally proud of Santiago when he

(34:58):
started sketching and paintinganatomical structures.
He's like, oh, you're puttingyour art to good use.
Good job.
So Santiago really threw himselfinto studying physiology and
anatomy.
And in his other classes he didjust well enough to pass.
So still not like an exceptionalstudent, but better.
But he still had hisdistractions.

(35:19):
He still loved reading fictionand poetry.
And he also became kind ofweirdly, like basically a gym
bro.
So he

Arpita (35:28):
Stop.

Aarati (35:29):
Yeah, like he's like had thought that all of his, like
running around and adventureswould've made him the strongest
and toughest one in class.
But then when he got to theuniversity, he realized that
there are guys in his class whoare stronger than him and he
couldn't stand that.
So he started spending two hoursa day every day in the gym,
lifting weights and doinggymnastics.

Arpita (35:50):
What did the gym look like in this time period?

Aarati (35:53):
I have no idea.

Arpita (35:53):
Like, what were they doing in there?
Like, were they like squatting?
Like was there squat racks?
Like what were they doing inthere?

Aarati (35:58):
I don't know.
I would like, I would imaginethere are weights, like he said
he was lifting weights.
So I can imagine like iron kindof dumbbell type of things.
Are you looking up like 1800sgym?

Arpita (36:09):
Well, it's probably like, was it almost turn of the
century or like late 1800s?

Aarati (36:13):
Um, 1870s.

Arpita (36:16):
Okay.
Yeah.
Uh, gymnastic apparatus,barbells and dumbbells.
And they were focused onstrength training, but it is
unclear what they were doing.
I guess the YMCA was actuallyaround.

Aarati (36:31):
Oh, really?
All the way back then?

Arpita (36:33):
Apparently.
Wait, I wanna see, oh, thebizarre workouts that led to
modern gyms.
Oh my god.
These are hilarious.
These are just like, they're,'cause they didn't have exercise
clothes, so they're wearing likefull gowns and tuxedos.

Aarati (36:49):
Are you serious?

Arpita (36:50):
Yes.

Aarati (36:50):
They're working out in like..

Arpita (36:52):
Yes.

Aarati (36:53):
Full gowns.

Arpita (36:54):
Suits.
Like...

Aarati (36:54):
Oh my God, that's amazing.

Arpita (36:56):
That is so funny.
They look like kind of tortureydevices.
Imagine like if all of the, youknow, when you're at the gym and
there's like the equipment, likeyou can like, you know, do the
leg press or like, you know

Aarati (37:06):
mm-hmm.

Arpita (37:07):
Like all the machines.
Yeah.
It's like, imagine like a superantiquated version of that.
Like that's what they weredoing.
So it's not free weights

Aarati (37:14):
Oh, interesting.
Interesting.

Arpita (37:16):
Wow.
That was an amazing sidebar.
It's just like bizarre to seethem wearing just like what I
would consider formal wear.

Aarati (37:25):
Yeah.
To go to the gym.

Arpita (37:26):
But they're at the gym.

Aarati (37:28):
That's so funny.

Arpita (37:29):
That's so funny.

Aarati (37:30):
Yeah.
So he spent hours a day liftingweights, doing gymnastics and
getting stronger.
And honestly, by the end of it,he was pretty vain about his
strength and was like, yeah,come at me.
Like he would challenge anyone,anyone who like tried to say,
you're not as strong as youthink you are.
He'd be like, oh really?
Like, let's go.
Let's go right now.
So yeah,

Arpita (37:51):
He really is a gym bro.

Aarati (37:52):
He really was.

Arpita (37:53):
He really is.

Aarati (37:54):
Um, it is just like an interesting sidebar, so.
In 1873, he finally graduatedwith his medical license and was
immediately drafted into themilitary and was put into the
Army medical service.
And initially he was stationedin a relatively calm area where
the military had a presence justto prevent anything from

(38:15):
happening in that town.
So it was like very calm.
And Santiago was prettydisappointed by this.
'cause he wasn't in the middleof any action.
He was like...

Arpita (38:23):
of course not.

Aarati (38:24):
I thought we were at war.
Where's the fighting?
Come on.
You know?
But then a year later, he wasordered to join an expedition to
Cuba, which was fighting for itsindependence from Spain.
And he was very excited for this'cause he's like, finally, I get
to go on an adventure.
I get to go see the world, andI'm gonna be like those heroes
in those novels that I've read.
But once he got to Cuba, he wasstationed in a very remote

(38:46):
hospital called Vista Hermosa,which was basically in the
middle of a swamp, in the middleof nowhere.
And.
He was treating soldiers whowere just falling sick from all
the tropical diseases there.
So it's like, not again, anyaction, like not exciting per
se, in the way that he washoping.
And eventually Santiago himselfcaught malaria and tuberculosis

(39:10):
and had to spend monthsrecovering.
And because he was so sick, hecouldn't look after patients.
So he decided to put the forcedbedrest to good use and spend
his time learning English, so hemight as well do something
productive.
However, his condition kept ongetting worse until he started
begging for a medical discharge.

(39:32):
But there weren't really anyother physicians, so it took him
several months to finally beable to be discharged and
allowed to go back to Spain.
And so on the way back to Spain,because of the fresh sea air and
the better food when he gothome, he.
Basically was able to recoverand go back to normal.
Although he lamented that he wasnever quite as strong as he had

(39:54):
been and never completely gotrid of the malaria anemia.
So,

Arpita (39:59):
Oh dear.
Okay.
Well, yeah.
At least you're alive.

Aarati (40:03):
Yeah, exactly.
So back in Spain, Santiagoreturned to the University of
Zaragoza and he completed hisdoctorate in medicine.
His final exams, for somereason, were held in Madrid.
I couldn't figure out why.
So he went there and he passed,but while he was in the city, he
met a Professor AurelianoMaestre de San Juan.

(40:29):
Hopefully

Arpita (40:30):
You did great.

Aarati (40:31):
Who invented Santiago to look through a microscope at
some histological slides, andthat's when he kind of fell in
love with microscopy.
He was like, oh my gosh, there'sthis whole tiny little world.
This is amazing.
So when he went back toZaragoza, he used some of the
money that he had saved from histime in the military to set up

(40:52):
his own microscopy lab.
And he wrote quote,"With theattitude of a fascinated
spectator, I examined the bloodcore muscles, the epithelial
cells, the muscle fibers, nervefibers, et cetera, pausing here
and there to draw or photographthe more captivating scenes in
the life of the infinitesimallySmall.

(41:12):
After getting his doctorate,Santiago got an appointment as
an acting assistant at theFaculty of Medicine, and then
two years later, Santiago wasappointed director of anatomical
museums at the University ofZaragoza.
By this time, he's 27 and hedecides he really should get
married, and so he told hisfamily like, I'm gonna go look
for a bride.

(41:33):
And they were like.
Good luck finding a girl who'sgonna marry you.
You know, basically like, yeah.
But he did, one day he was on awalk and he met a woman named
Silveria Fananas Garcia whosequote,"rosy and smiling face
resembled that of the Madonna'sof Raphael.

Arpita (41:54):
Wow.
Okay.

Aarati (41:55):
Yeah.
High praise.
Um, He dated her and soonproposed and they were married
and the couple ended up havingseven kids together.

Arpita (42:05):
Jesus.

Aarati (42:06):
Yeah, it's a lot.
Some sources I read said 12 andI was like, yikes.
So, but

Arpita (42:13):
Oh God.

Aarati (42:13):
Everyone kind of settled on seven, so I was like,
hopefully that's the correctnumber.
12 would just be a lot.

Arpita (42:19):
Oh my goodness.

Aarati (42:21):
So now that he's married, Santiago worked very
hard at advancing his career sohe could rise to a position
where he could like make enoughmoney to support his family.
In 1883, he gets a position atthe University of Valencia as a
Professor of General andDescriptive Anatomy.
And here he continues to do workin histology, but he also

(42:42):
becomes interested inbacteriology.
So this is kind of like a littlesidebar, but this is about 15
years after Louis Pasture hadpublished his paper on germ
theory.
And so the field of bacteriologyis very new and in vogue.
And in 1885, a cholera epidemicis sweeping through Spain.

(43:04):
So two years earlier, RobertKoch had discovered that cholera
was due to a bacterialinfection.
And so when this epidemic brokeout in Spain, the Spanish
government enlisted a bunch ofphysicians like Santiago to
study what was going on andreport back to see if there's
like, is this really a bacterialinfection that's going, going

(43:27):
around?
So Santiago meets with patientsand he stains samples so he can
study the microbes.
And he writes a monograph called"Studies on the rod microbe of
cholera and prophylacticinoculations." And in this, he
illustrates the pamphlet or thebooklet with eight lithographs.

Arpita (43:48):
Mm-hmm.

Aarati (43:49):
And although this work was like by no means
groundbreaking, he was reallyjust confirming what Koch had
discovered already, that this islike a bacterial infection the
Spanish government was sopleased with him and his
readiness to serve the countrythat they gifted him with a
Zeiss microscope and

Arpita (44:07):
Whoa.

Aarati (44:08):
Yeah.
And Santiago was like superthrilled by this.
He said, quote,"upon the receiptof that unlooked for
acknowledgement, my satisfactionand happiness knew no bounds."
It was a far better microscopethan the one that he had been
using that he brought with Armymoney.
So he was like super excited forit.
Yeah.

Arpita (44:27):
Wow.
How did, wait, how did thegovernment get attention?
Is it because it was about adisease that was affecting a lot
of people?
Is that what happened?
So it's like the cholera wasaffecting a lot of people and so
then because he like wrote thismonograph, they were like, oh,
thank you so much.

Aarati (44:40):
Yeah.
So there was like a epidemic ofcholera that was going through
Spain and the Spanish governmentwas like, we need to know more
information about how isspreading.
And they enlisted a bunch oflike physicians to study it.
So he was one of them.

Arpita (44:54):
Okay.
Okay.

Aarati (44:55):
And he just did such a thorough job that they were
like,

Arpita (44:57):
I see.

Aarati (44:58):
Wow.
Amazing.
Good job.
Here's a, here's a microscope.

Arpita (45:01):
Okay, here's a microscope.

Aarati (45:06):
Um, but yeah, so he's super excited.
So Santiago now with his brandnew microscope, throws himself
into histology and studying alltypes of tissues.
He started publishing severalarticles on comparative
histology and a textbook, andeven this in this more like
academic work.
He loved writing in this veryflowery and like fantastical

(45:29):
language.
So I chose this example of nervecells,'cause that's what he's
basically known for.
He wrote, quote,"The nerve cell,the highest cast of organic
elements with its gigantic armsstretched out like tentacles of
an octopus to the provinces onthe frontiers of the external
world to watch for the constantambushes of physiochemical

(45:53):
forces." end quote.

Arpita (45:54):
That's actually a pretty solid descriptor.
I like the tentacles.
It's like that's actually reallylike very solid.

Aarati (46:00):
Mm-hmm.

Arpita (46:00):
I'm into that.

Aarati (46:02):
And he had descriptions like this for all the cells.
For like muscle fibers, fatcells, eggs and sperm.
Like everything.
He had like these fantastic,amazing descriptions for all of
them.
So at the end of 1887, Santiagotraveled to Madrid on some work
business and there he met aprofessor Simarro, who showed

(46:24):
Santiago an image of a nervecell that had been stained and
captured by Camillo Golgi, whois an Italian biologist and
known for the Golgi body incells.

Arpita (46:36):
Mm-hmm.

Aarati (46:36):
Camillo Golgi had developed a staining method
called the Black Reaction, whichused potassium by chromate to
harden the tissue that they werestudying, and then used silver
nitrate as a stain whichaccumulated in the cells and
made them turn black.
And this was the first reallyclear image of a neuron that

(46:58):
scientists had ever been able toproduce.
And Santiago just becamefascinated by this from both a
scientific perspective and anartistic one.

Arpita (47:07):
The Black reaction sounds like it should be like a
2000s punk rock band, right?

Aarati (47:13):
Oh, yeah.
Like my chemical romance orsomething like.

Arpita (47:15):
Yeah.
It does feel like it should livein that era.

Aarati (47:18):
Yeah, it does.
It sounds kind of like scary.
Okay.
So at the time, what scientistsknew about the brain was that it
communicated with other parts ofthe body using electrical
impulses.
And they knew that nerve cellshad this long branched
architecture, but they wereoperating under an idea called

(47:38):
the Reticular Theory, which wasthe idea that the brain and all
the nerve cells in our body wereconnected in a single continuous
network or web of tissue calledthe reticulum.
So Camillo Golgi's stained imageof this neuron didn't really go
against that idea becausealthough you could see the

(48:00):
neuron cell body and like thedendrites branching off of it,
you couldn't really see whathappened at the end of those
dendrites.
The stain just kind of blurredout or it diffused away.
And so Golgi was operating underthis particular theory, and so
he assumed that the dendritesmust just seamlessly join to
other neurons and form this bigmesh.

Arpita (48:20):
Hmm.
Okay.

Aarati (48:22):
Yeah.
But this was super exciting toSantiago because he had done his
histology work on the brainpreviously, and he understood
how difficult it was to get goodimages of brain cells.
And so this image from Golgi wasso incredibly clear, and even
though it blurred out at theend, Santiago was like, there's
potential here.

(48:42):
So, after four years at theUniversity of Valencia, he gets
a position as the Chair ofHistology and Pathological
Anatomy at the University ofBarcelona.
So he and his family moved toBarcelona, and this is where he
does like his most pivotalresearch in trying to figure out
how the cells of the nervoussystem connect to each other.

(49:03):
He wrote quote,"It was a case offinding out how the roots and
branches of these trees in thegray matter terminate in that
forest so dense that by arefinement of complexity there
were no spaces in it so that thetrunks, branches and leaves
touch everywhere.

Arpita (49:20):
Oh, interesting.
I like that description too.
It's like they, they, everythingis touching and they're all
connected.

Aarati (49:25):
Yeah.
So basically he's saying likethe brain is just so dense with
neurons.

Arpita (49:30):
Yeah.

Aarati (49:30):
That it's really hard to figure out like what an
individual looks like.

Arpita (49:35):
Like you can't say that one neuron is connected to these
like five things.
It's like 3D and it's like, sookay.

Aarati (49:41):
Yeah.
It's like everything's touchingeverything.
Like it's so difficult.
So basically what he did toparse this out is he improved
Golgi's staining method bystaining the cells with silver
nitrate twice in a very specifictimeframe.
And also he used brain samplesfrom very young or embryonic
birds and mammals where thebrain wasn't quite as fully

(50:03):
developed.
So the neurons weren't allformed fully, and so they
weren't all densely packedtogether.

Arpita (50:09):
Mm-hmm.

Aarati (50:10):
Um, and so that way he could see individual neurons
better.
And this allowed him to stainmore neurons and also see with
greater clarity at the ends ofthe dendrites.
And what he saw was that thedendrites did in fact have an
end.
They're not this continuousmesh.
So Santiago, through his work,began to reject the Reticular

(50:31):
Theory and instead came up withthe Neuron Theory, which stated
that the basic unit in thenervous system was an individual
cell, which he called theneuron.
And also from only looking atthe neuronal structures the
other huge theory that he cameup with was the Law of Dynamic
Polarization, which stated thatthese nerve cells communicate

(50:53):
with each other using electricalimpulses that travel in one
direction only.
So they receive an electricalsignal from the dendrites near
the cell body.
The signal propagates in onedirection down the axon, and
then is transferred to anothercell at the other end.
And this again, was goingagainst the Reticular Theory,
which kind of stated thatelectrical impulses could travel

(51:15):
bidirectionally or like anywherethroughout this continuous mesh.
Everything's like continuous.
So this was going against thatas well.

Arpita (51:22):
I could totally see how someone would think that it's
bidirectional, right?
Because

Aarati (51:27):
Right.

Arpita (51:27):
You have neurons that are motor that are going, you
know, from your brain to yourmuscles, but then you have like
sensory neurons that are comingfrom your skin to your brain.

Aarati (51:36):
Mm-hmm.

Arpita (51:36):
So it does make a lot of sense that you'd think that it's
just like this closed loop.

Aarati (51:40):
Yes.

Arpita (51:41):
But it is true that it, it is not, I feel like it's so
crazy that he figured out thatthere's this depolarization
that's happening.
Like

Aarati (51:49):
Yeah.

Arpita (51:49):
It feels so, like, it feels like the equipment that he
is working on is so much morearchaic and it's like, how did.
How did you, how did you knowthat?
Like you're just staining cell,like from what you're saying,
it's like, you're like, howwould you figure that out from a
stain?
You know, like, I don't,

Aarati (52:04):
Yeah, i,

Arpita (52:06):
so interesting.

Aarati (52:06):
I couldn't figure that out either.
I was,'cause it, it did saylike, he only figured this out
just by looking at thestructures and I'm like, how
though?
Like, that seems

Arpita (52:14):
Yeah.
How though also, like what levelof like, like, you know, like,
um, magnification that he'slooking at that even I feel like
at the maximum magnification,like, you're not looking at like
sodium channels, right?

Aarati (52:28):
Yeah.
Like, yeah.

Arpita (52:28):
Like how could you possibly see something like
that?
So

Aarati (52:31):
Yeah.

Arpita (52:33):
Anyway, I'm just...

Aarati (52:33):
I'm not, I don't know how he figured that out, but

Arpita (52:35):
thinking while you're saying that.

Aarati (52:37):
Yeah.
But actually, um.
He published his work in May,1888 in the quarterly review of
normal and pathological history,and this work was confirmed by
his own brother, Pedro Ramon yCajal, who had also eventually
gone down the science route asper their father's wishes.
So...

Arpita (52:58):
No one is escaping.

Aarati (52:59):
Yeah.
So I think Pedro did a littlebit more of like the
experimental approach and likeconfirmed like what Santiago had
found.
But I just thought it was sofascinating that he could do
that just from, just fromlooking at the structures and
the drawings he was creating.
So that's crazy to me.

Arpita (53:15):
Yeah, I don't, I don't quite understand that, but
that's amazing.

Aarati (53:18):
Yeah, so he continued to publish his findings and
lithograph drawings in smallarticles throughout 1888 and
1889, but he remained relativelyunknown, partly because all of
his publications were inSpanish.

Arpita (53:31):
Interesting.

Aarati (53:32):
And also, it's not easy to be the one who says,"No the
theory that everyone isoperating under is wrong.
I have a new theory," you know,like,

Arpita (53:41):
Right.
That's totally fair.

Aarati (53:43):
Yeah.
But Santiago was very, very sureof his findings, and he couldn't
just let his work be overlooked.
So in 1889, he traveled toGermany to the Congress of the
German anatomical society topresent his work.
And this was the first timebesides his trip to Cuba that he
had ever traveled outside ofSpain.

(54:05):
He presented his work at theconference, and there he met a
prominent Swiss histologist,Rudolph Albert Von Kolliker, who
took notice of Santiago's workand became a strong support of
his.
Kolliker, helped Santiago spreadhis work to the international
scientific community.

(54:26):
He said,"I have discovered youand I wish to make my discovery
known in Germany." End quote.
And from then on, Santiago wasinvited to many conferences
across Europe and America topresent his work.
So he is getting somerecognition.

Arpita (54:39):
Yeah, it was like his little big break.

Aarati (54:41):
Yes.
So in 1892, Santiago wasappointed to be the Chair of
Histology and PathologicalAnatomy at the University of
Madrid, where he continued tostudy the structure of neurons
and teach students and, youknow, just continue down this
route.
But as he was rising inprominence, Camillo Golgi caught

(55:02):
wind of Santiago's work and waslike, dude, wait a minute.
That's my staining method thatyou're using.
You know, like, where's mycredit?
You need to gimme credit.
And he came out with proof thathe was the one who came up with
the staining technique, theBlack Reaction in the first
place.
And Santiago was like, yeah,totally props to you for
discovering the black reaction.

(55:23):
But A) I made it better becauselike now I'm staining the
neurons twice and so I canactually see the ends of them.
And B) although you did stainsome neurons, you didn't do
anything with those images, youdidn't deduce anything from it
or like, you know, try to makeany meaning from it.
So, you know, like,

Arpita (55:41):
Wow, this is, this is just, this is science.
I feel like 1 0 1.
Like you, you do one thing andthen someone, one ups you, and
then it's like you're, you're nolonger relevant.

Aarati (55:52):
Exactly.
So he was like, you know, don'ttry to pretend that I didn't do
anything.
Like, or like, don't try topretend I'm just copying you.
Like I, I definitely took thisto the next level.
Like give me some recognitiontoo.

Arpita (56:05):
Totally.
That's fair.
Honestly.

Aarati (56:08):
Yeah.
I thought so.
Um, in 1900 Santiago was awardedthe Moscow Prize by the
International Medical Congress,and this led to initiative by
many in the Spanish government,including the Prime Minister
Francisco Silvela and theMinister of Education and
Culture, Antonio Garcia Alix, toset up a research center to

(56:32):
provide assistance and fundingto Santiago to train future
histology students.
And the students that Santiagotrained here went on to do all
sorts of work in neurobiology,including studying
neurodegenerative disorders,psychology and mental illness.
So he's just teaching histologyto this, a wide array of

(56:52):
students.

Arpita (56:54):
I wonder, you know, how we talked about previously about
your science family tree?

Aarati (56:59):
Yeah.

Arpita (56:59):
Like, I wonder, I wonder if we, you know, like anyone
that we worked with had Ramon yCajal in their family tree.

Aarati (57:06):
I wonder.

Arpita (57:08):
Like it's not...
I, I feel like it's well withinthe realm of possibility.

Aarati (57:12):
I think so.
I think like the number ofstudents that he taught, you
know?

Arpita (57:16):
Right.

Aarati (57:16):
Like

Arpita (57:17):
yeah.
And like what they went on todo, like it feels like they
would be in their family tree.

Aarati (57:22):
Yeah.
Just like,

Arpita (57:23):
Yeah.

Aarati (57:23):
Especially'cause it, it sounded like all his students
were interested in everything,like anything having to do with
the brain.
They went through him at somepoint.
So...

Arpita (57:32):
That's, that's especially because it feels like
because he was one of the firstpeople to do it then pretty much
anyone who was interested inthat probably at one point was
with him.
So then like it does feel likethat school of thought or that
division of science all kind ofstem back to him.
I don't know.
That's interesting.
I wonder if that's Google-able

Aarati (57:52):
Probably, I mean, he had a couple of students that were
more well known than others.

Arpita (57:57):
Mm-hmm.

Aarati (57:57):
Um, no one that, like, I, I didn't have time to like
research...

Arpita (58:01):
Oh, sure.

Aarati (58:02):
Any of them, but like...

Arpita (58:02):
I was just wondering.

Aarati (58:04):
Yeah.
But I, I can totally, I cantotally imagine that, you know,
they went on to do amazing workin all sorts of, all sorts of
neurodegenerative diseases andall sorts of mental illnesses
and like,

Arpita (58:16):
Yeah.

Aarati (58:16):
Yeah.
So around this time also theQueen of Spain, Maria Christina,
awarded him the Grand Cross ofIsabella the Catholic, which is
awarded for outstanding serviceand loyalty.
And a few months later, he wasalso awarded another Grand Cross
from King Alfonso XII.
So now we're getting into likehis awards.
Obviously.

(58:36):
In 1905, Santiago was awardedthe Helmholtz Medal, which at
first he didn't reallyunderstand the significance of,
and he had to actually do someresearch on it to realize, oh,
this is a big deal.
Like the Helmholtz medal isgiven out only every two years
to whoever has made outstandingscientific and technical
breakthroughs in science.

(58:58):
So he was really honored andhumbled by that.
And he, again, just got a lot ofrecognition from winning that
medal.
And that lasted for quite awhile.
And just as the excitement fromthat started to wear down in
October, 1906, Santiago woke up,uh, one morning to a telegram
from one of his colleagues.

(59:19):
And all it said was, theKarolinska Institute has awarded
you the Nobel Prize.
Yeah.

Arpita (59:27):
Oh my God.
My jaw actually just droppedright now.
Like,

Aarati (59:31):
Yeah.

Arpita (59:32):
I was like kind of nodding along, listening to all
the awards.
I was like, cool, cool, cool.
And I was like, wait, what?

Aarati (59:38):
Yes.
Yeah.
I think that's how he, he wasalso just like going on through
his life.

Arpita (59:44):
Yeah.

Aarati (59:44):
And he wakes up one morning, he's like, oh, telegram
from my friend.
Wait, what?

Arpita (59:50):
Yeah.
That's amazing.

Aarati (59:50):
Like I can imagine that was his exact reaction too.

Arpita (59:53):
Oh my gosh.
I love that.

Aarati (59:55):
So a few days later, he received the official news from
the Karolinska Institute that hewould be awarded the prize in
Physiology and medicinealongside Camillo Golgi.
So...

Arpita (01:00:08):
Oh, interesting.

Aarati (01:00:09):
Yes.
So as opposed to the HelmholtzPrize, which Santiago was like
humbled by, but he could accept.

Arpita (01:00:15):
Mm-hmm.

Aarati (01:00:16):
The Nobel Prize was like such a prestigious award that he
was kind of afraid of itinitially.
He was like, I don't deservethis, and it's gonna, it's shone
such a spotlight on him that hewas like, I can't, I can't
believe that this is real.
Because he was also the firsthistologist to ever win the

(01:00:36):
prize.

Arpita (01:00:37):
Uhhuh.

Aarati (01:00:38):
So it was like very surreal for him.
I think nevertheless, inDecember he travels to Stockholm
to accept the prize, and this isthe first time he meets Camillo
Golgi in person.
And as is custom, they both hadto deliver a lecture, and
Camillo Golgi went first and hedescribes his Black Reaction

(01:00:58):
staining method.
But then to everyone's shock andsurprise, he started lecturing
about the Reticular Theory ofthe nervous system, which by now
is largely discredited and waspretty disrespectful to Santiago
who was sharing the award forliterally being the one to prove
it wrong.

Arpita (01:01:16):
Oh my God.

Aarati (01:01:17):
Drama.

Arpita (01:01:18):
That's so cringe.
Oh, that's so cringey.
Oh dear.
Oh, it's so awkward.

Aarati (01:01:25):
It is so bad.
He showed a bunch of stainingsand illustrations during his
talk, and none of them were bySantiago.
So just...

Arpita (01:01:34):
oh.

Aarati (01:01:35):
The disrespect.
Yeah.

Arpita (01:01:37):
This man is fighting and for what?

Aarati (01:01:40):
I know, right?
Just the ego, just the ego andpride on this man.
I don't, I don't understand.
Santiago was also pretty tickedoff, and even though he had
given Golgi recognition fordeveloping the Black Reaction in
the first place, Golgi was tooegotistical apparently, to
return the same kind ofrecognition back to Santiago's

(01:02:02):
work.
So when it was Santiago's turnto talk, his speech was just
basically an immediateback-to-back contradiction of
everything that Golgi had justsaid.
And Santiago wrote, quote,"Whatirony of fate to pair together,
like Siamese twins, united bythe shoulders, scientific
adversaries of such contrastingcharacter."

Arpita (01:02:21):
Okay.
Honestly, facts.
Like I agree with all of that,

Aarati (01:02:24):
Right?
Like, dude, yeah.
So Santiago continues to workon, uh, anatomic studies of
different parts of the brain,understanding the cell nucleus
and neurons, and works ondegeneration and regeneration of
spinal cord nerves.
When World War I comes around,he was greatly distressed by it

(01:02:46):
because not only did it hinderscientific progress, because
scientific equipment was harderto come by, but also because he
thought the war was justgenerally something that was
very wasteful of lives andresources and time.
He was just like, what, what arewe doing guys?
Why are we fighting?
He also lost contact with a lotof his international scientific

(01:03:08):
colleagues during the war, andonce the war was over, he
learned with great sadness thatmany of them had passed away
during those years when he lostcontact because they're all like
getting much older now, so,

Arpita (01:03:19):
Mm-hmm.

Aarati (01:03:20):
In 1920, King Alfonso XIII commissioned the
construction of the Ramon yCajal Institute, which is where
our friend Jose Delgado fromlast episode spent some time
studying.

Arpita (01:03:32):
Yes.

Aarati (01:03:32):
So, yep.
That's where that came from.
And Santiago continued to workfor the rest of his life, even
up until the day he died, whichwas on October 17th, 1932 at the
age of 82.
So he lived...

Arpita (01:03:47):
wow.
82.

Aarati (01:03:49):
Yeah.

Arpita (01:03:49):
That's amazing.

Aarati (01:03:50):
Yes.

Arpita (01:03:51):
And he almost died like three times in there.

Aarati (01:03:53):
I know.
I didn't even tell you about onewhere he fell through the ice in
a river, like almost drowned.

Arpita (01:03:58):
Okay, so more than three maybe.

Aarati (01:04:00):
Yeah, he, he almost died quite a bit.
After his death there werenumerous awards and tributes to
his work, including a threemeter tall statue of him in
Madrid.
There's been numerousexhibitions in museums of his
drawings, including an ongoingone initiated by the NIH in
2014.
And there was even an asteroidnamed after him in 2005, which

Arpita (01:04:24):
Oh, cute.

Aarati (01:04:24):
Random.
But yeah, I like it.
And so I just wanted to end witha quote that he uses to end,
like in the last pages of hisautobiography, which I thought
was very fitting for the closeof this chapter, like not only
the episode, but also the SmartTea chapter.
Um, something to send you offwith.

(01:04:44):
It says, quote,"but I have noright to afflict the reader with
melancholy reflections.
Let us repel sadness, which isthe mother of inaction, let us
devote ourselves to life, whichis energy, renovation, and
progress, and let us keep onworking.

Arpita (01:05:01):
Oh, love that.

Aarati (01:05:02):
Yeah.

Arpita (01:05:03):
Oh, that's so great.

Aarati (01:05:04):
This is very nice.

Arpita (01:05:04):
Don't be sad.
We're gonna keep working andwe're gonna keep doing the
thing.
I love that.

Aarati (01:05:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Arpita (01:05:09):
What a nice quote.

Aarati (01:05:10):
So I was like, hopefully that's a good one to send you
off with as your life takes anew direction.
And I will also continue to keepworking on the Smart Tea
podcast.

Arpita (01:05:20):
Yeah.
Oh, that was a great quote.
I love that.
Great story.
That was such a good one.
I, you were totally right.

Aarati (01:05:25):
Thank you.

Arpita (01:05:25):
That was, that was a really good one.

Aarati (01:05:27):
Yeah, it was a bit long, but, you know, 600 pages down to
seven.
Not bad.

Arpita (01:05:34):
Yeah.
You, you deserve a prize forthat for sure.

Aarati (01:05:38):
Thanks.
Yes.
Um, yeah.
But I hope you enjoyed I hopeeverybody listening enjoyed and
thank you so much to Arpita andwe wish her the best on her new
direction that her life istaking.
Um, hopefully you'll be back atsome point.
Just pop in I'll and say hello.

Arpita (01:05:56):
Sure.
I would love that.
I would love that.

Aarati (01:05:58):
Yeah.

Arpita (01:05:58):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you very much.
Thanks for listening.
If you have a suggestion for astory we should cover or
thoughts you wanna share aboutan episode, reach out to
[e-mail].
You can follow us on Instagram,TikTok and Blue Sky at smartt
podcast, and listen to us onSpotify, apple Podcasts,

(01:06:19):
YouTube, or wherever you getyour podcasts.
And leave us a rating orcomment.
It really helps us grow.
New episodes are released everyother Wednesday.
See you next time.