October 30, 2024 • 47 mins
As soon as X-rays were discovered, scientists realized the potential they had to revolutionize healthcare. Aarati tells the story of the very first physicist who won the Nobel Prize.
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Episode Transcript
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Arpita (00:11):
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast,
where we talk about the lives ofscientists and innovators who
shape our world.
How are you, Aarati?
Aarati (00:20):
I'm doing really well.
How are you, Arpita?
Arpita (00:23):
I'm good.
I feel like we're finally fall.
We're finally cozy.
What's going on in your life?
Aarati (00:29):
Well, my biggest thing this week is that I voted.
So I'm feeling very proud ofmyself for checking that big
checkbox off my list.
Arpita (00:38):
A plus.
Aarati (00:39):
Yes, I just sat down over the weekend read through
all the propositions readthrough what all the candidates
were saying and it took me likea good hour or so but I feel
well informed.
Arpita (00:51):
Oh, there's so much.
Aarati (00:52):
Yeah.
Arpita (00:53):
Good!
Aarati (00:53):
I feel I feel like I made good decisions.
I feel smart and I did my civicduty.
So i'm very proud of myself.
Arpita (01:01):
I love that.
Aarati (01:02):
Yeah, how about you?
Arpita (01:04):
I have had a busy few weeks at work.
And so I think the rest of mylife is like a little bit on
catch up.
Um, but I'm very excited.
I'm going backpacking thiscoming weekend.
Um, I'm going to DesolationWilderness, which I have never
been to before, just outside ofTahoe.
And I'm super stoked.
(01:24):
I feel like this is gonna belike the last little bit of
backpacking before it getsreally freezing.
Um...
Aarati (01:30):
Yes.
Arpita (01:30):
So...
Aarati (01:31):
That sounds really fun.
Yeah, that sounds amazing.
So you just, Go for a weekend orhow does it I've never been
backpacking.
So I don't know anything aboutit.
Arpita (01:42):
Oh, we gotta rope you in, Aarati.
It's really fun.
We're just doing one night.
Two nights is my limit honestlylike two nights is my limit and
then I'm...
I'm ready to be done.
But yeah, we're going onSaturday and then it's about a
six mile hike so it's not supersuper far.
So six mile hike and then we'llsleep and then we will just hike
(02:02):
back.
Aarati (02:03):
Oh nice!
Arpita (02:03):
And then come back on Sunday.
So it's nothing super, supercrazy, but we're going to Lake
Aloha, and Logan's planned thewhole thing out, and I think
it's going to be really, reallyfun.
I'm, I'm really excited.
I hope we'll see some fallcolors, like up in the Alpine
Lake, and yeah.
I'm, I'm stoked.
I think it'll be like a fungetaway.
Aarati (02:22):
Is it just going to be the two of you or do you have
friends going?
Arpita (02:26):
Yeah, we have some friends going.
Um, my sister is coming and it'sher birthday weekend.
And so this is kind of herbirthday backpack.
And so that, that's kind of themain impetus for going, but
yeah.
Aarati (02:36):
I see.
That's that's a nice way tocelebrate that.
I feel like that's unique.
It's something different thangoing to a restaurant and which,
yeah, I love doing that too.
But, you know...
Arpita (02:46):
Yeah, this is I think she's I think she's in both.
So,
Aarati (02:48):
Yeah, well, of course, of course, you need to do both.
I feel like birthdays last allweek, really, in general.
So,
Arpita (02:55):
Yeah, totally.
She texted me this morning andshe was like, It's Scorpio
season, and she's a Scorpio, andI was like, thank you for
letting me know.
Aarati (03:02):
Me too!
Arpita (03:07):
We love Scorpios.
Aarati (03:08):
Yes, we're pretty amazing, gotta say.
Arpita (03:12):
Yeah, who are we talking about today?
I'm really excited.
Aarati (03:15):
Today, we are going to be talking about Wilhelm
Roentgen, who was the inventor,or discoverer, I should say, of
X-rays, and the reason I wantedto do him was actually because
my friend's son, um, broke hisleg, like last week.
Arpita (03:34):
Oh no! Poor baby.
I know right after his birthday?
Aarati (03:38):
Yeah, right after his birthday.
He like fell over broke his leg,but he healed super fast.
Like he healed...
Arpita (03:45):
Yeah.
Aarati (03:46):
He's like putting weight on it within a week.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, Ididn't even like I didn't
realize babies healed that fast.
Arpita (03:53):
Yeah, the pediatric fractures are super common and
heal super fast.
Aarati (03:58):
Yeah!
Arpita (03:59):
Yeah, it's actually insane like pediatric injuries
are basically not real likethey're
Aarati (04:05):
I did not realize that.
Arpita (04:06):
Like a rubber band.
Yeah, they're rubber band forsure.
Yeah, just bounce back soquickly.
Aarati (04:11):
And she sent me the X-ray of his leg and circled the
part where the fracture was andI was like where I don't see it
so She's like it's right there.
I'm like, no, it's not there'snothing there so But...
Arpita (04:25):
I'm glad he's better.
Aarati (04:27):
Yeah, he's, he's running around like it never happened.
And I'm just like, man!
Arpita (04:32):
I feel like for them, they're like honestly pretty
stoked to have something cool,like a cast, like they're like,
this is actually kind of cool.
Like, I wonder if he's oldenough for that, but I feel like
they're usually so undeterred.
Aarati (04:42):
At first I think he was like, what is this thing that
you're putting on my leg?
It's impeding me.
I don't like it But then after abit I think he kind of like
understood like Oh, okay.
This is something specialbecause I can't put weight on
this leg.
So this is something that isgoing to help me.
I think he figured that out.
And then I think it also helpedthat when they took him to
(05:04):
daycare and stuff like that,like people will sign his cast
and make him feel a little bitspecial.
Yeah.
So I think that, I think thathelped a bit.
So
Arpita (05:14):
That's funny.
Aarati (05:15):
Yeah.
But anyway, that's who we'redoing today.
We're doing Wilhelm Röntgen, um,or Röntgen.
There's a lot of German names inthis.
Arpita (05:24):
I was gonna say, this sounds aggressively German.
Wilhelm.
Aarati (05:28):
There's like an umlaut over the O in his name and I'm
just like, I do not know.
So, I think it's Röntgen orthat's the closest I'm gonna get
with my very American accent.
So.
Arpita (05:39):
Great.
Sorry, Wilhelm.
Aarati (05:41):
Yeah, so he was born on March 27th, 1845 in a town
called Lennep, which was in theKingdom of Prussia at the time.
So now that area is Remschield,Germany, which is just north of
Cologne.
He was an only child, and hisparents were Friedrich Konrad
(06:03):
Röntgen, who was a merchant anda cloth manufacturer, and
Charlotte Konstanz Frowien, Ihope.
Anyway, at the time, there was alot of political unrest in
Prussia, so when Wilhelm wasthree, the family decided to
move to the Netherlands, whereCharlotte's family was from.
(06:26):
As a boy, and even later as anadult, Wilhelm loved roaming
around nature, and he alsoshowed a special aptitude for
making mechanical devices, sokind of two, I don't know,
opposites there a little bit,but I feel like there's a lot of
symmetry between him and some ofthe other people we've talked
(06:47):
about.
Arpita (06:48):
Yeah.
Aarati (06:48):
In terms of loving nature and liking to build
things.
So after secondary school, hisparents encouraged him to pursue
higher education.
So he enrolled in high school atUtrecht Technical School.
And this was several miles awayfrom his home, so he ended up
actually living with a familyfriend, Dr.
(07:10):
Jan Wilhelm Gunning, who taughtchemistry and pharmacy at the
Utrecht University, and Wilhelmwas really welcomed into the
Gunning family, and it was Dr.
Gunning who truly inspiredWilhelm to pursue science.
However, Wilhelm was kind of amixed bag when it came to his
(07:31):
classes.
He got good grades in math,chemistry, languages, and art,
but ironically he scored quoteunquote very bad in physics.
And if that wasn't bad enough,one day Wilhelm's science career
almost ended completely when oneof his fellow students drew a
caricature of their teacher onthe blackboard.
(07:53):
And when the teacher saw it,they demanded to know who drew
it, and somehow the blame fellon Wilhelm, and Wilhelm refused
to give up the name of theperson who really drew it, and
so he was expelled from highschool.
Arpita (08:06):
That's funny, at least he's loyal, I guess.
Aarati (08:09):
I don't know.
I don't know why you would notgive up the name of the student.
But yeah, he, he was expelledfrom high school.
Arpita (08:15):
Snitches get stitches.
Aarati (08:17):
I, apparently.
And so now without a high schooldiploma, he wasn't able to
register as a student at theUtrecht University, which was
kind of his goal because Dr.
Gunning was a professor thereand there was like, that was
such an inspiration for him.
And to further put a nail inthat coffin, he failed the
(08:38):
entrance exam anyway for theuniversity.
So, he was allowed to audit theclasses at Utrecht University,
but he wasn't allowed to takeexams or get any credit.
Arpita (08:50):
Okay.
Aarati (08:51):
But he was doing that.
He was auditing math andscience, um, but then a friend
of his, Carl Thormann, told himto try the Swiss Polytechnical
School in Zurich because theydidn't require a high school
diploma in order for you toenter college, which I don't
understand.
Arpita (09:07):
Odd.
Aarati (09:08):
Different times, I guess.
So Wilhelm was like, that soundslike a good idea, so he went off
to Switzerland and he enrolls inthe Polytechnical Institute as a
mechanical engineering major.
And again, here, Wilhelm is nota great student.
After his first year, he got awarning that if he kept getting
low grades, he wouldn't beallowed to move forward.
And he got the same warningafter his second year.
(09:29):
So he's barely scraping by here.
Arpita (09:33):
Why did he register as mechanical engineering?
Wasn't he really bad at physics?
Aarati (09:37):
Yeah, I don't know, but he liked to build things, I
guess.
And,
Arpita (09:41):
Okay.
Okay.
I was wondering if there waslike a real reason why he did
that.
I'm like, wasn't, this doesn'tseem to be playing to his
strengths, I guess, is what I'mtrying to say.
Aarati (09:48):
It doesn't, and the thing, well the things that I
read about him were that he kindof was more into thinking about
things in a more abstract way,like theoretical things, but
then when it came down to likestructure and doing things
practically, he wasn't great atthat.
Arpita (10:06):
Got it.
Aarati (10:07):
So, he liked to think about things like kind of in a
broad sense, but then he hadtrouble kind of with details,
which again is ironic, we'regoing to get to that.
Yeah.
But he worked really, reallyhard and his professors were
very invested in helping him.
So by the end of his third year,he was actually doing pretty
well in his classes.
So he got his diploma and then Iguess this was like an option
(10:32):
for graduates of thepolytechnical school that he was
at.
So after his undergrad, he wasgiven the option to enroll into
a one year PhD program at ZurichUniversity.
So again, I'm like, this isunheard of, like, yeah, just go
to school for a year and getyour PhD.
Arpita (10:49):
Yeah, I, I'm confused by the, okay, carry on, carry on.
Aarati (10:52):
Yes, but I think it's also that this is like the
1800s, and so physics is like,wow, you discovered a particle?
Amazing, you get your PhD andnow you're famous, you know?
Arpita (11:05):
You get a PhD and you get a PhD.
Aarati (11:07):
Exactly.
So he does that.
He goes to study for his PhD atZurich University and he goes
from studying mechanicalengineering to physics, and here
he studied under ProfessorRudolf Clausius and August
Kundt, who, once again, werevery dedicated to helping
(11:28):
Wilhelm succeed.
As a student, Wilhelm was veryhardworking, and he was also
very introverted, so when hewasn't studying, he had a small
group of friends that he wouldhang out with.
He loved going for hikes in themountains and rowing boats on
the lake, so he was not like aparty person, he didn't like
talking to people a lot, but heenjoyed kind of more quiet,
(11:51):
reserved, outdoorsy typeactivities.
He also enjoyed eating at alocal inn, where it just so
happened the innkeeper'sdaughter, Anna Bertha Lundwig,
or Bertha, Ludwing.
Sorry.
Anna Bertha Ludwing.
Um, I said it like threedifferent ways now.
(12:13):
Anyway, she went by the nameBertha, which I can say.
So she worked as a waitress atthis inn and he liked to eat
there.
Um, probably for more reasonsthan one.
So after his year in Zurich, hepublished his dissertation
entitled Study of Gases, whichwas, you guessed it, a study of
behaviors of gases at differenttemperatures and pressures, and
(12:34):
that's like literally all heneeded to get his PhD.
Arpita (12:37):
Like P= nRT?
Like, what are we talking about?
Aarati (12:40):
I guess so?
I think it was just like, howdoes this gas behave at this
temperature, and what is thepressure at that temperature?
And then now if I lower thetemperature, what's the
pressure?
And like
Arpita (12:49):
Are you serious?
Aarati (12:50):
Like, this is what it sounds like to me.
Arpita (12:53):
I think my chemistry homework was harder than that.
Aarati (12:55):
I know, it definitely was.
So, but he was basically doing alot of work on like, entropy and
thermodynamics types of things.
Okay.
On the same day he graduatedfrom his PhD, he went to that
inn where Bertha worked and heproposed to her.
Arpita (13:11):
I also got proposed to the day I defended.
Aarati (13:14):
Did you really?
Arpita (13:15):
Yeah.
Aarati (13:15):
Oh my god, that's so cute.
I didn't know that.
That's adorable.
Arpita (13:20):
It was a long day.
Aarati (13:21):
Way to increase your chances when you're really
happy.
She's in a good mood.
Arpita (13:26):
I think that's what happened.
It's like how sleep deprived anddelirious could she possibly be?
Let's increase the chances.
Aarati (13:33):
Yeah, exactly.
In this case, PhD and he's like,"Great.
I'm going to go propose to mygirl." So she accepted, but
Wilhelm's father did not approveof the marriage first, because
Bertha was six years older thanWilhelm was, and she also came
from a poor family.
(13:55):
So his father said if they gotmarried, he would cut off all
his financial support.
So Wilhelm was like, Okay, Iguess I gotta go get a job then.
So around this time, ProfessorKundt, who Wilhelm had been
working with during his PhD, gotan appointment as the chair of
physics at the University ofWürzburg back in Germany.
(14:17):
And Professor Kundt had a reallyhigh opinion of Wilhelm, and he
appointed him as his assistantin his new lab.
So Wilhelm moved back toGermany, while Bertha went to
live with Wilhelm's parents fora while so she could learn
German cooking and housekeepingskills from Wilhelm's mother.
So preparing for married life,basically.
Arpita (14:39):
Yeah, cute.
Aarati (14:41):
Yeah.
And although Wilhelm's fatherdidn't really approve of Bertha,
Wilhelm's mom found Bertha to beloving and quote unquote
careful, which I took to meanthat she paid attention to
detail, so.
Arpita (14:55):
Oh, those are probably translated, right?
So it's probably not careful inEnglish.
Aarati (15:00):
Yeah, true.
So, I was like, okay, at leastWilhelm's mom likes Bertha.
After about two years, in 1872,Wilhelm and Bertha got married
at the Röntgen's home.
And true to his word, Wilhelm'sfather cut off his financial
support.
But at this point, Wilhelm andBertha were okay living on
Wilhelm's salary at theUniversity of Würzburg, so it
(15:22):
wasn't much.
They weren't, like, super welloff, but it was enough to get
by.
However, the university was verypoorly funded, and Professor
Kundt and Wilhelm found that itjust wasn't very well equipped
for setting up a new physicslab.
Luckily for them, the FrancoGerman War had just ended in
1871, and France had ceded someland over to Germany, including
(15:44):
the city of Strasbourg.
Therefore, the University ofStrasbourg was being reorganized
to become a German institutionnow.
And Professor Kundt was asked tobe the chair of physics there.
So Kundt went to Strasbourg andWilhelm went with him.
And after a few years, Wilhelm'sparents even moved to Strasbourg
to be closer to him.
(16:04):
So it sounds like they're very,like, close knit family.
Here Wilhelm published a fewmore papers.
One was on specific heat ofcertain gases, one was details
about using an air barometer tospecifically measure gas
pressure, one was on the heatconductivity of crystals, and
finally one on the electricalcharacteristics of quartz.
(16:25):
A lot of, a lot of thermo, likea lot of thermodynamics.
Arpita (16:29):
Yeah, interesting.
Okay.
Aarati (16:30):
Yeah.
But what's really important tonote about this work is, like,
none of it was particularlygroundbreaking.
Most of it was repeatingexperiments that other people
had already done, but he wasmaybe using, like, a slightly
different method.
Or he was trying to get the sameresults and then trying to
explain any discrepancies hesaw.
Arpita (16:50):
Okay.
Aarati (16:51):
And so that's a really important point as to the type
of scientist he was.
He was like spending a lot oftime being very precise about
his measurements.
Um, and so it would take himyears to publish a paper, but
most of the time it wasn't like,Oh my gosh, this amazing
discovery that he's made.
Arpita (17:09):
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes sense.
It also does sound like a lot ofjunior faculty papers, right?
It's like you're not doing yourmost groundbreaking research
yet.
You're sort of getting your nameout there and, you know, either
refining protocols or validatingresults, like making smaller
steps as opposed to like yourbiggest paper.
Aarati (17:30):
Yeah, and he also like it was kind of part of his
personality to kind of go chaseafter like the little why is
this little thing happening thatmaybe other scientists had
noticed but it wasn't part oftheir bigger picture so they
kind of disregarded it, but hewould go and chase down that
little detail and be like what'shappening there can I explain
(17:50):
that one little thing.
Arpita (17:52):
Gotcha.
Aarati (17:53):
Yeah, he also spent a lot of time trying to find
practical evidence for physicstheories, but often hit a dead
end because the instruments atthe time were just not advanced
enough to prove or disprovecertain theories.
After about a year with Kundt'shelp and a strong
recommendation, Wilhelm was ableto get a position as a lecturer
in 1875, and then he was offereda full professorship position at
(18:16):
the Agricultural Academy ofStuttgart Hohenheim.
The move to Stuttgart Hohenheimwas a little bit of an emotional
one for Wilhelm because althoughthe position came with a pay
increase and he wasautomatically able to become a
German citizen because of theposition that it was, it also
meant that he had to leavebehind Professor Kundt who had
(18:38):
really taken him under his wingand influenced his work, and it
also meant moving away fromStrasbourg, away from his
friends and family.
Also, the housing that theyprovided at Hohenheim was pretty
terrible, and Wilhelm was alwayscomplaining about the rats in
the place.
So, yeah, not good.
So, unsurprisingly, after abouta year and a half, Professor
(19:01):
Kundt wrote a letter saying,Hey, if you want to come back to
Strasbourg, I will recommend youto be the new chair of
theoretical physics here.
And Wilhelm was like, yes,please.
And he and Bertha went back toStrasbourg.
Arpita (19:13):
Yeah, how do you pass that up?
Especially when you're livingwith rats.
Aarati (19:16):
Yeah, I mean, it's like, I will take the pay decrease to
go back and live with my friendsand family in a non rat infested
house.
Arpita (19:25):
Yeah, it's a no brainer.
Aarati (19:26):
Yeah.
So he's bouncing around a lot atthis point in his life.
Um, after three years atStrasburg, William published 15
papers in physics and was trulybecoming a rising star in the
field.
Because of this, in 1879, he'snominated to be the chair of
physics at the University ofGiessen.
He was even recommended byHermann von Helmholtz, who is a
(19:48):
very famous physicist knowntoday for his work in energy
conservation and optics.
So he moves to Giessen, he staysthere for almost 10 years, and
again his parents followed himto live with him there.
They, at this point, are veryproud of him because he's
essentially building his owncareer without any sort of
patron or outside financialsupport, which I guess was
(20:11):
common at the time.
Arpita (20:13):
That does make sense.
Yeah.
Aarati (20:14):
Yeah.
Arpita (20:15):
Does the dad come around then?
Aarati (20:18):
Um, I think he, the dad is proud of him, but not enough
to give him money.
Arpita (20:23):
Give him money.
Aarati (20:24):
Yeah.
But at this point it's like, oh,but he doesn't need it anymore.
Arpita (20:27):
It doesn't matter.
Aarati (20:28):
He doesn't.
Yeah.
It doesn't.
He, he made his own, he made hisown way.
Arpita (20:31):
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay, okay.
Aarati (20:33):
At Giessen, both of his parents actually passed away.
His mother died a year after hemoved there and his father died
four years later.
They were both buried in Giessenand it was a pretty hard loss
for Wilhelm because he reallyloved his parents, like pretty
obviously they were followingeach other around, you know,
Europe.
And even ten years later,there's a letter where he wrote
(20:54):
to a friend reminiscing abouthis mother and how he still
misses her.
Arpita (20:58):
Oh.
Aarati (20:59):
Yeah.
So.
At Giessen, Wilhelm was asked todesign a new physics department.
The old ones were really crampedand over 30 years old, so he was
given a new space to work in.
He also taught experimentalphysics, giving lectures on
optics, heat, and electricity.
And he published about 20 morepapers during this time on a
(21:23):
bunch of different things,namely the properties of quartz
and also the photophone, whichwas invented by Alexander Graham
Bell.
Um, and it was a precursor tothe telephone.
So the photophone was a way totransmit sound, but using light
waves instead of electricity.
Arpita (21:41):
Oh, I was going to ask what the photo was, but okay.
Aarati (21:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, but again, it's worthnoting, Wilhelm was really just
adding his two cents here.
Like Alexander Graham Bell isthe one who got the acclaim for
that invention of thephotophone.
And Wilhelm was just like, Oh,also it does this one other
little thing that not manypeople cared about, you know, so
he's doing a lot of these typesof experiments with gases and
(22:07):
pressure changes,thermodynamics, um, and how
different types of light wavesare absorbed by different
materials.
And so now we're building up tohis big discovery, but we're not
quite there yet, but thethorough way in which he
conducted his experiments andthe quality of his publications
gained him a lot of recognition.
(22:29):
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Okay, back to the story.
(23:13):
In 1888, he was offered theposition of a Professor of
physics and the director of thenew physical institute at the
University of Würzburg.
So Wilhelm, who is now 43, movesto Würzburg with Bertha.
And at this point, Wilhelm andBertha still did not have any
(23:33):
children.
And since Bertha was six yearsolder than Wilhelm, and so was
approaching 50 years at thispoint, it was highly unlikely
that she was going to be able toconceive.
And this was a really big sourceof pain for both of them, but
especially for Bertha becauseshe loved children.
Yeah.
But in 1887, Bertha's onlybrother died and left behind a
(23:55):
six year old daughter,Josephine.
So Wilhelm and Bertha took inJosephine and basically made her
like their daughter.
And then when she was 21, theylegally adopted her.
Arpita (24:08):
Aww, that's very cute.
Aarati (24:10):
Yeah, so they became really close.
They were like a very tightfamily unit.
They would go be out in natureall the time, go on hikes.
They would take family vacationstogether.
And so overall, life in Würzburgis going pretty great.
Arpita (24:24):
Yeah.
Aarati (24:26):
Okay.
So now we're finally getting tothe main event.
In the 1890s, scientists allover the world were studying the
properties of cathode rays.
So we talked about these alittle bit.
Arpita (24:38):
Yeah.
Aarati (24:38):
In the episode on Percy Spencer, the inventor of the
microwave oven.
So just a quick reminder.
A cathode ray is created in avacuum tube and is made of glass
that has a cathode or anegatively charged electrode on
one end and an anode thepositively charged electrode on
the other end and when you sendenergy through it negatively
(25:00):
charged electrons stream off thecathode and move towards the
anode.
And scientists can actually seethis beam of electrons, um,
moving through the tube becausethe vacuum tube is coated in
phosphor and it makes theelectron beam or cathode ray
show up as a green beam oflight.
(25:22):
So actually, if you see videosof this, it's super cool
looking.
Arpita (25:25):
Yeah.
Aarati (25:26):
But at the time scientists did not know what
cathode rays actually werebecause they didn't even know
what electrons were so...
Arpita (25:34):
Interesting.
Aarati (25:34):
They were just like putting energy through this tube
seeing this beam of green lightand being like cool.
What's that?
You know?
They didn't know what it was.
They had no...
they didn't know what propertiesit had, they didn't know what
made it up.
And so that's what all thesescientists are trying to figure
out basically.
And there were two physicists inparticular, Heinrich Hertz and
(25:56):
Philipp Lenard, trying to figurethis out, and they made a
version of the cathode ray tubethat had a window on one end
that they covered with differentmaterials to see if the cathode
ray could pass through it.
So, when they covered the windowwith gold or silver, the cathode
ray got absorbed and couldn'tpass through, but it could pass
(26:19):
through aluminum foil.
So you're sending energy throughthis tube, it's going from the
cathode to the aluminum foil andactually going through the
aluminum foil out of the vacuumtube.
Arpita (26:30):
And it has to do with the density of aluminum versus
the density of gold and silver?
Okay.
Aarati (26:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But once it did get through thealuminum foil, it would kind of
dissipate really fast.
It would only survive for abouta few centimeters before dying
off.
So it couldn't exist like thecathode ray couldn't exist for
very long outside of the vacuumtube.
But now they could actuallystudy like what effects the
cathode ray had on differentthings outside of the vacuum
(26:59):
tube.
So they were experimenting byholding up different materials
in front of the cathode rays andnoting that some of them would
heat up or fluoresce, but again,that was about the extent of
their knowledge.
Arpita (27:11):
They were kind of just messing around a little bit.
Aarati (27:13):
Yeah.
Arpita (27:14):
They're just like, what happens now?
Aarati (27:15):
Exactly.
Let's point this cathode atsomething and see what happens.
Arpita (27:19):
Okay.
Aarati (27:20):
That's exactly what they're doing.
So the important one to note isthey found that if they held up
a screen covered in bariumplatinocyanide crystals, they
would start to fluoresce.
Arpita (27:32):
What is that?
And where did they get it?
Aarati (27:33):
Yeah, so I don't know.
Um, they don't know why thishappened.
It was like one of many thingsthat they were studying and they
were just making a note that heywe've got this screen.
We covered it in bariumplatinocyanide crystals for
whatever reason and Hey, look,they glow great, you know, like
but why do they glow?
(27:54):
We don't know.
So they're just making a note.
Arpita (27:56):
Why do they have?
Bario, what is it?
Aarati (27:59):
Barium platinocyanide crystals.
It was like a list of like manydifferent things.
I'm sure there's a physicsreason for why they chose that
as their short list, but I thinkthey were doing like many
different, um, types ofmaterials.
And that was just one that willbecome important to Wilhelm's
story.
So that's why I'm justmentioning that one, but there
(28:20):
were other materials that likeeither heated up or would
fluoresce or whatever that theywere also making a note of.
So, Wilhelm read about Hertz andLenard's experiments, and he
wanted to replicate them.
So, he built his own version oftheir cathode ray tube with the
window and covered it withaluminum foil, just like they
had.
(28:41):
And then he wrapped the wholetube in black cardboard so no
visible light would interferewith his experiments.
And on November 8th, 1895,Wilhelm attempted to replicate
this particular experiment withthe barium platinocyanide
crystals.
So, he got a screen that wascovered in the crystals, he cut
off a small piece, and he setthe bigger piece aside on his
(29:04):
bench.
And then he held up the smallpiece of the screen in front of
the cathode rays.
And it started to fluoresce, butthen he noticed that the larger
piece of the screen that he hadleft lying on the bench a few
meters away was also fluorescingand he's like, that's weird
because scientists knew that thecathode ray once it left the
(29:27):
vacuum tube would die off aftera few centimeters and he wasn't
even holding up that part of thescreen in front of the cathode
ray.
So
Arpita (29:35):
It's like a few meters away.
Aarati (29:36):
Yeah.
So he's like, huh, somethingelse is causing this
fluorescence and it must be somekind of ray that's invisible,
but was able to pass through thecardboard that he had covered
the cathode ray tube in.
So initially Wilhelm likecouldn't really believe what he
(29:57):
was seeing.
So for the next few weeks, hekept his discovery a complete
secret.
He holed himself up in his labfor weeks trying to find some
explanation.
Like, he just couldn't believethis phenomenon was real.
So, he was putting all of thesematerials in front of the
crystal screen, like huge stacksof books and planks of wood, but
(30:17):
the crystals kept fluorescing.
So, like, whatever was causingthe crystals to light up was not
only not dying off as soon as itleft the vacuum tube, but it was
moving through these heavymaterials and still causing the
crystals to fluoresce.
He placed the crystals on aphotographic plate so he could
take a picture, and then hestarted checking out what
(30:37):
happened to other things.
And he was astonished to findthat when he put a compass on
the photographic plate and tooka picture, he could see the
needle of the compass eventhrough the metal case when it
was closed.
Arpita (30:50):
Oh, yeah.
I see.
Like, it's like an old school,just kind of clamshell
situation, and he can see insideof it even when it's closed.
Oh, that's cool.
Aarati (30:59):
Yeah.
So, like, these rays are passingthrough the metal case and
allowing him to see like theinside of it of the compass.
Arpita (31:08):
Pretty cool.
That would probably blow my mindtoo.
Aarati (31:10):
Yeah.
And then he tried his own handand of course saw the bones his
own bones in the photograph thathe took.
And I think, obviously,initially, this kind of freaked
him out, um, like, yeah, so whenhis wife Bertha kept asking him,
(31:30):
like,"What's going on?
You're holed up in your lab allday, like you're not coming
out." All he would say was thatif people knew what he was
doing, they, quote, would sayRoentgen must have gone out of
his mind," basically.
Arpita (31:42):
I mean, it's not entirely, you know, out of the
realm of possibility.
Aarati (31:47):
Yeah, because he, he just couldn't believe that like
what he was seeing...
he just couldn't fathom thatthis was a thing So he was like
I must be making this up.
I must be having some sort ofhallucination.
I cannot literally be seeing mybones right now.
This is insane.
Arpita (32:03):
If he was a lady, he would be a witch.
So...
Aarati (32:06):
Yes.
Oh my god.
Good point So speaking of um,finally on December 22nd, he
brought Bertha into his lab andhe turned on the cathode ray
placed her hand in front of thephotographic plate and took a
picture of it and in it.
She could clearly see the bonesof her own hand and her wedding
(32:27):
ring kind of floating around herfinger.
Arpita (32:30):
That's cool.
Yeah.
I mean, they make sense.
But yeah.
Aarati (32:33):
Yeah.
So initially creeped out by theimage too.
And she thought that she wasseeing a vision of her own
death.
Arpita (32:41):
Mmm, I mean, yeah, I get it.
Aarati (32:44):
So, this image has now become famous as one of the
first radiology images, orRöntgengrams.
So, finally now, he's convincedhimself he wasn't crazy, that
he, what he had found was real.
And he published his findings ina paper called On a New Kind of
Rays.
Since he had no idea what theserays were, he just called them
(33:05):
X-rays'cause he couldn't thinkof a better name for them.
Arpita (33:10):
That's so funny.
I actually was wondering whythey were called X-rays.
Aarati (33:14):
Yeah, just it doesn't stand for anything.
It's just like X is justunknown.
Arpita (33:19):
Like a placeholder like literally solve for x.
Oh, interesting.
Aarati (33:23):
He was just like, I don't know what they are, so I'm
just gonna say X.
In the paper, he noted thatthere were certain things that
these X-rays could pass through,like wood, cloth, and soft
tissues in humans, but not otherthings like certain metals and
bones.
And now we know, actually thanksto one of Wilhelm's own students
who followed up on his research,that X-rays are a type of
(33:47):
electromagnetic radiation.
They're on the opposite end ofthe spectrum as microwaves.
So microwaves, radio waves, andinfrared waves have really long
wavelengths, longer than we cansee with the naked eye.
Then we have our very smalllittle window of visible light
with all the color wavelengthsthat we can see.
And then the waves get too shortfor us to see.
(34:09):
And that's the ultraviolet rangeand X-rays fall into that range
as well.
Arpita (34:14):
And then gamma rays?
Aarati (34:15):
Yeah, and gamma rays.
Yeah.
Arpita (34:17):
Okay.
Aarati (34:17):
And since X-rays are so short, between 0.
01 and 10 nanometers, they canpass through a lot of different
materials.
Arpita (34:27):
Right.
Aarati (34:27):
So things that are really dense, or elements that
have higher numbers of electronsor like higher, or I guess lower
on the periodic table, they canblock X-rays from passing
through.
And so that's why X-rays canpass through our soft tissue,
like our muscle and fat and skinbecause it's less dense.
It's made of lower numberedelements like hydrogen and
(34:51):
carbon, a lot of water, oxygen,nitrogen, like those elements
and X-rays can pass rightthrough, but bones are made of
calcium and that's higher up onthe periodic table or lower
down, I guess, if you'relooking, it has a higher number
Arpita (35:06):
Higher atomic number.
Aarati (35:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so they don't allow X-raysto go through them.
And so they clearly show up.
Arpita (35:13):
And so like her wedding band or the sheet of gold.
Aarati (35:16):
Yeah, exactly.
So when Wilhelm published hisfindings, initially many
physicists were very skepticaland were like, no way this is a
thing.
But after seeing the images ofBertha's hand and repeating the
experiments for themselves, thescientific community was amazed
and super excited.
They immediately saw what a hugebreakthrough this was and
(35:37):
Wilhelm became an overnightsensation.
He was not super thrilled bythis because he was an, he was
an introvert and he really hatedthe attention.
Um, he declined numerousinterviews with the press, but
in January, the German EmperorWilhelm II invited him to give a
demonstration of the X-rays tothe court in Berlin.
(36:00):
And that's not really aninvitation that he could
decline.
Arpita (36:03):
Sure, that's like a, that's like a volun-told.
Aarati (36:07):
Yes, exactly.
So Wilhelm went, he gave hisdemonstration, and he talked
about the potential militaryapplications X-rays could have,
and the emperor was highlyimpressed and gave him the
Prussian Order of the Crown,second class.
The next day, Wilhelm gave hisonly public lecture ever on
(36:28):
X-rays.
When he entered the auditorium,he was shocked to see that it
was fully packed, with studentseven sitting on the stairs
between the aisles.
Yeah, he's like, what are allthese people doing here?
They gave him a standing ovationwhen he entered, which visibly
moved him.
After his lecture, people begancalling the rays Roentgen rays.
(36:52):
However, as we know, theoriginal name of X-rays kind of
ended up sticking.
He also refused to pursue anypatents associated with X-rays
because he firmly believed thatthis kind of technology should
be freely accessible for thegood of all people.
So.
That was nice.
Uh, when he made his discovery,the implications for healthcare
(37:12):
was obviously one of the biggestthings people were excited
about.
And as a result, Wilhelm wasawarded an honorary doctorate of
medicine from the University ofWürzburg.
He and Philipp Lenard alsojointly received the Rumford
Medal for Astounding Achievementin Physics from the British
Royal Society in 1896.
And I think that brings up thepoint for a lot of people that
(37:33):
Lenard had been very close todiscovering X-rays and had
probably even kind of noticedthe same phenomenon that Wilhelm
did, but just didn't follow upon it.
Like just again, like that waswhat Wilhelm was doing.
Arpita (37:50):
He's really focused on the details.
Yeah.
That's super interesting thatlike, yeah.
Cause like so many people weremessing with it, that he was
actually the one to be like,Wait, there's something else
here.
Yeah, interesting.
Aarati (38:01):
There's something else happening here.
And so some people called itlucky because like, so like you
were saying, so many people weremessing around with cathode rays
and it was just luck that hestumbled on this.
But one of his students laterpointed out that it really was
because of his nature of himfollowing up on every single
little detail and asking whythat...
Arpita (38:21):
yeah.
Aarati (38:21):
...he discovered X-rays.
Arpita (38:23):
I mean, so much of this, I mean, I don't like to call it
luck, but it kind of is a littlebit of right place, right time,
so he's in the right situationwhere he has the material to
explore this, and it has notquite been discovered yet, and
so, you know, there is a mix of,you know, you need all the
ingredients to make it happen,but I wouldn't say that he just
like stumbled into it.
(38:43):
You know, he was looking.
I think there are some thingswhere it's like totally a
mistake.
Like someone made a mistake andthen this resulted in it.
I don't think this is that.
Aarati (38:52):
Yeah, no, because I think there was a lot of people
were like, Oh, well, you know,this other scientist should have
gotten the credit or this otherscientist really just like saw
this phenomenon first.
Like they, they, noticedsomething first that now we know
is probably caused by X-rays andthey were the first ones to make
this observation that like thisthing is glowing.
Arpita (39:13):
That's different.
Aarati (39:14):
But they didn't follow it up, you know, and that's why
they didn't make the discoveryfirst.
Arpita (39:20):
That's not a discovery, but yeah, no, I agree.
Aarati (39:22):
So following his discovery, the Bavarian
government asked him to chairthe physics department at the
University of Munich.
And again, this is kind of likea volun-told situation, like you
were saying, like the governmentis saying, hey, you need to go
to the University of Munich.
So Wilhelm and Bertha moved toMunich, but they weren't happy
at all about leaving Würzburg.
(39:43):
They miss their friends andcolleagues and the calm,
friendly atmosphere.
And in comparison, they foundMunich and its people to be kind
of stuffy, and they had a reallyhard time getting along with
anyone.
Arpita (39:54):
That's so funny, because they're all German, and I'm
like, you guys are all stuffy,so.
Aarati (40:00):
I mean, to me, it kind of sounded more like they were
very outdoorsy, and like, kindof like this calm, laid back
kind of country living, and nowthey're moving into a city, and
they're just like, surrounded byall these like fast paced kind
of high society people, and hejust wasn't that type of person.
(40:20):
So, despite his new fame, herejected the offer to join the
class of nobility in Munich,which annoyed a lot of the noble
people because they felt like hewas snubbing them.
So, Just not good at makingfriends, this guy.
But he really just was not intothe attention, like he did not,
he did not want to be part ofthe upper class, he did not
(40:42):
want, you know, all of that.
But this brings us to 1901,which is the inaugural year of
the Nobel Prizes.
So although Wilhelm haddiscovered X-rays five years ago
at this point, It's value tosociety was so obvious that
there was really no questionwithin the Nobel Prize committee
as to who was going to win theNobel Prize in physics.
(41:04):
So when Wilhelm heard the newsthat he had won, he was
thrilled.
He traveled to Stockholm wherehe received the prize and 150,
000 Swedish kronor, which isequivalent to about$900, 000
today.
Arpita (41:19):
Damn.
Aarati (41:19):
Yeah, But he didn't keep any of it.
He donated it all to theUniversity of Würzburg for their
continued research.
Arpita (41:27):
Wow.
Aarati (41:28):
Yeah.
Wilhelm stayed at the Universityof Munich until 1920.
Unfortunately, the years had notbeen kind to him and Bertha.
So, during World War I, peoplewere asked to give up their gold
and jewelry for the war effort,and Wilhelm was very patriotic,
and so he gave what he had,including the gold Rumford medal
(41:49):
that he had won with Lenard.
Arpita (41:51):
Oh, yeah.
Aarati (41:52):
But he did hang on to his Nobel Prize medal.
He wasn't giving that one up.
Arpita (41:57):
Good for him.
Yeah.
Aarati (41:58):
Yeah.
Arpita (41:58):
Yeah.
Aarati (42:00):
But when Germany lost the war, all of his war bonds
lost most of their value.
And then as the years passed,inflation made most of his
savings lose value as well.
So towards the end of his life,he was basically living in
poverty.
Arpita (42:14):
Wow, that's crazy.
Aarati (42:15):
I know.
I was like, I find that so sad.
But at the same time, I waslike, well, you're the one who
decided not to patent it.
You're the one who gave awaylike almost a million dollars.
In 1919, Bertha died at the ageof 80 after a long battle with
kidney and respiratory problems.
Her death, of course, was verysad for Wilhelm, and without her
(42:37):
he became even more introvertedand reclusive.
He retired from the Universityof Munich and burned most of his
letters and notes, includingmany of the papers from around
the time when he firstdiscovered X-rays.
Arpita (42:51):
Interesting.
Why?
Aarati (42:52):
I know.
To me, that raised the samequestion.
I was like, I feel like at leastthree or four times now we've
heard of scientists burningtheir notes and burning their
research.
Arpita (43:02):
Yeah, why?
Like, what's the thoughtprocess?
Like, they just don't wantanyone to find?
Aarati (43:06):
I wasn't sure.
Arpita (43:07):
I guess the most interesting thing about it is
like how 180 we are now where Ijust feel like my first like
step into even like chem lab waslike write everything down like
everything that you do down andlike keeping lab notebooks is
like a religion and so I'm justcurious like that wasn't that
long ago it was like early 1900so it's like What, like what
(43:32):
changed in such a short amountof time that people were burning
their notes to then being like,we're going to keep religious
notes.
I don't know.
I just like a philosophy thingthat I'm curious about.
Aarati (43:42):
Yeah, I don't really understand his thought process
because, like, unlike John B.
Watson, who we talked about acouple episodes ago, like, he
burned his notes, I think,because he was kind of ashamed
of what he had researched interms of child psychology and
things like that, which Iunderstood that.
But this, I was like, I don'tknow why you're burning your
notes.
And I think a lot of historianswere kind of upset about that,
(44:04):
too, because there's a lot thatwe don't actually know about his
discovery and X-rays becauseit's gone now, you know, so,
Arpita (44:12):
But like for no real reason.
Yeah, that's yeah,
Aarati (44:16):
It is.
It is weird.
He spent his final few yearsvisiting the few friends he had
left in 1921.
He suffered from internalbleeding, which his doctor said
was due to hemorrhoids, butWilhelm figured that he really
actually had intestinal cancer.
Um, I think he could just tellby the way he felt and things.
(44:36):
So he died at his home onFebruary 10th, 1923 at the age
of 78.
And he was given what basicallyamounted to a royal funeral,
like members of the former royalfamily were present, as well as
several prominent members of thescientific and physics
communities.
(44:57):
He was cremated and his asheswere buried next to Bertha's and
his parents in Giessen.
So today, X-rays are still usedeverywhere, obviously, um, most
obviously we use them formedical procedures to identify
broken bones, tumors, and othertypes of injuries in the body.
They are also used for securitypurposes to screen like bags at
(45:19):
the airport and at differentconcerts and events.
William Röntgen is also stillremembered today, not just by
the scientific community but theworld in general.
There are several streets.
Named after him, and there's aplaque on the house where he
lived as a PhD student inZurich, as well as a memorial in
(45:40):
Geissen that is kind of anabstract version of X-rays
passing through a huge stone.
It's pretty cool.
Arpita (45:48):
That's really cool.
Aarati (45:49):
Yeah.
There's even a mountain peak inAntarctica named Röntgen Peak
after him.
Arpita (45:55):
Wow.
Really?
That's so random.
Why?
Aarati (45:57):
Yeah.
I don't know.
Maybe because he was outdoorsy.
He loved hiking and adventuring,I guess.
Yeah, he was like a very avidmountain climber, so.
In 2004, element 111 on theperiodic table was named
Roentgenium, Roentgenium, yeah.
Arpita (46:16):
Those get weird.
I feel like after a certainatomic number, they get weird.
Real weird, like, like peoplejust start using their names and
I'm like,
Aarati (46:22):
Yeah, people just started like I know there's like
Einsteinium and there'sNobelium.
Um, or something.
There's like a whole bunch ofdifferent ones.
So, but I have to say like theoriginal IUPAC name that was
given to element 111 was like,Unununium It's like, U N U N U N
I U M.
(46:42):
And I was like, who?
Arpita (46:43):
Who's in charge of this?
I have feedback.
Yeah.
Aarati (46:46):
I'm like, Roentgenium is much better.
Thank you for changing that.
Arpita (46:50):
Yeah.
Aarati (46:50):
Yeah.
And finally, November 8th, whichis the day that Wilhelm first
noticed that the bariumplatinocyanide crystals in his
lab were fluorescing, is nowcelebrated as World Radiology
Day.
And I thought that was supercool personally, because
November 8th also happens to bemy birthday.
(47:11):
So, yeah, back to those fellowScorpios.
Arpita (47:17):
Scorpios!
Aarati (47:17):
Yeah.
So, yeah, that's his story.
Arpita (47:19):
I loved it.
Great story.
That's so fun.
I like that story a lot.
Aarati (47:25):
Yeah, I thought it was super fun.
Super cool.
Arpita (47:30):
Thanks for listening.
If you have a suggestion for astory we should cover or
thoughts you want to share aboutan episode, reach out to us at
smartteapodcast.
com.
You can follow us on Instagramand Twitter@smartteapodcast and
listen to us on Spotify, ApplePodcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
And leave us a rating orcomment.
It really helps us grow.
Special thanks to our editor,James Fixx.
(47:52):
New episodes are released everyother Wednesday.
See you next time!
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Smart Tea Podcast,
where we talk about the lives ofscientists and innovators who
shape our world.
How are you, Aarati?
Aarati (00:20):
I'm doing really well.
How are you, Arpita?
Arpita (00:23):
I'm good.
I feel like we're finally fall.
We're finally cozy.
What's going on in your life?
Aarati (00:29):
Well, my biggest thing this week is that I voted.
So I'm feeling very proud ofmyself for checking that big
checkbox off my list.
Arpita (00:38):
A plus.
Aarati (00:39):
Yes, I just sat down over the weekend read through
all the propositions readthrough what all the candidates
were saying and it took me likea good hour or so but I feel
well informed.
Arpita (00:51):
Oh, there's so much.
Aarati (00:52):
Yeah.
Arpita (00:53):
Good!
Aarati (00:53):
I feel I feel like I made good decisions.
I feel smart and I did my civicduty.
So i'm very proud of myself.
Arpita (01:01):
I love that.
Aarati (01:02):
Yeah, how about you?
Arpita (01:04):
I have had a busy few weeks at work.
And so I think the rest of mylife is like a little bit on
catch up.
Um, but I'm very excited.
I'm going backpacking thiscoming weekend.
Um, I'm going to DesolationWilderness, which I have never
been to before, just outside ofTahoe.
And I'm super stoked.
(01:24):
I feel like this is gonna belike the last little bit of
backpacking before it getsreally freezing.
Um...
Aarati (01:30):
Yes.
Arpita (01:30):
So...
Aarati (01:31):
That sounds really fun.
Yeah, that sounds amazing.
So you just, Go for a weekend orhow does it I've never been
backpacking.
So I don't know anything aboutit.
Arpita (01:42):
Oh, we gotta rope you in, Aarati.
It's really fun.
We're just doing one night.
Two nights is my limit honestlylike two nights is my limit and
then I'm...
I'm ready to be done.
But yeah, we're going onSaturday and then it's about a
six mile hike so it's not supersuper far.
So six mile hike and then we'llsleep and then we will just hike
(02:02):
back.
Aarati (02:03):
Oh nice!
Arpita (02:03):
And then come back on Sunday.
So it's nothing super, supercrazy, but we're going to Lake
Aloha, and Logan's planned thewhole thing out, and I think
it's going to be really, reallyfun.
I'm, I'm really excited.
I hope we'll see some fallcolors, like up in the Alpine
Lake, and yeah.
I'm, I'm stoked.
I think it'll be like a fungetaway.
Aarati (02:22):
Is it just going to be the two of you or do you have
friends going?
Arpita (02:26):
Yeah, we have some friends going.
Um, my sister is coming and it'sher birthday weekend.
And so this is kind of herbirthday backpack.
And so that, that's kind of themain impetus for going, but
yeah.
Aarati (02:36):
I see.
That's that's a nice way tocelebrate that.
I feel like that's unique.
It's something different thangoing to a restaurant and which,
yeah, I love doing that too.
But, you know...
Arpita (02:46):
Yeah, this is I think she's I think she's in both.
So,
Aarati (02:48):
Yeah, well, of course, of course, you need to do both.
I feel like birthdays last allweek, really, in general.
So,
Arpita (02:55):
Yeah, totally.
She texted me this morning andshe was like, It's Scorpio
season, and she's a Scorpio, andI was like, thank you for
letting me know.
Aarati (03:02):
Me too!
Arpita (03:07):
We love Scorpios.
Aarati (03:08):
Yes, we're pretty amazing, gotta say.
Arpita (03:12):
Yeah, who are we talking about today?
I'm really excited.
Aarati (03:15):
Today, we are going to be talking about Wilhelm
Roentgen, who was the inventor,or discoverer, I should say, of
X-rays, and the reason I wantedto do him was actually because
my friend's son, um, broke hisleg, like last week.
Arpita (03:34):
Oh no! Poor baby.
I know right after his birthday?
Aarati (03:38):
Yeah, right after his birthday.
He like fell over broke his leg,but he healed super fast.
Like he healed...
Arpita (03:45):
Yeah.
Aarati (03:46):
He's like putting weight on it within a week.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, Ididn't even like I didn't
realize babies healed that fast.
Arpita (03:53):
Yeah, the pediatric fractures are super common and
heal super fast.
Aarati (03:58):
Yeah!
Arpita (03:59):
Yeah, it's actually insane like pediatric injuries
are basically not real likethey're
Aarati (04:05):
I did not realize that.
Arpita (04:06):
Like a rubber band.
Yeah, they're rubber band forsure.
Yeah, just bounce back soquickly.
Aarati (04:11):
And she sent me the X-ray of his leg and circled the
part where the fracture was andI was like where I don't see it
so She's like it's right there.
I'm like, no, it's not there'snothing there so But...
Arpita (04:25):
I'm glad he's better.
Aarati (04:27):
Yeah, he's, he's running around like it never happened.
And I'm just like, man!
Arpita (04:32):
I feel like for them, they're like honestly pretty
stoked to have something cool,like a cast, like they're like,
this is actually kind of cool.
Like, I wonder if he's oldenough for that, but I feel like
they're usually so undeterred.
Aarati (04:42):
At first I think he was like, what is this thing that
you're putting on my leg?
It's impeding me.
I don't like it But then after abit I think he kind of like
understood like Oh, okay.
This is something specialbecause I can't put weight on
this leg.
So this is something that isgoing to help me.
I think he figured that out.
And then I think it also helpedthat when they took him to
(05:04):
daycare and stuff like that,like people will sign his cast
and make him feel a little bitspecial.
Yeah.
So I think that, I think thathelped a bit.
So
Arpita (05:14):
That's funny.
Aarati (05:15):
Yeah.
But anyway, that's who we'redoing today.
We're doing Wilhelm Röntgen, um,or Röntgen.
There's a lot of German names inthis.
Arpita (05:24):
I was gonna say, this sounds aggressively German.
Wilhelm.
Aarati (05:28):
There's like an umlaut over the O in his name and I'm
just like, I do not know.
So, I think it's Röntgen orthat's the closest I'm gonna get
with my very American accent.
So.
Arpita (05:39):
Great.
Sorry, Wilhelm.
Aarati (05:41):
Yeah, so he was born on March 27th, 1845 in a town
called Lennep, which was in theKingdom of Prussia at the time.
So now that area is Remschield,Germany, which is just north of
Cologne.
He was an only child, and hisparents were Friedrich Konrad
(06:03):
Röntgen, who was a merchant anda cloth manufacturer, and
Charlotte Konstanz Frowien, Ihope.
Anyway, at the time, there was alot of political unrest in
Prussia, so when Wilhelm wasthree, the family decided to
move to the Netherlands, whereCharlotte's family was from.
(06:26):
As a boy, and even later as anadult, Wilhelm loved roaming
around nature, and he alsoshowed a special aptitude for
making mechanical devices, sokind of two, I don't know,
opposites there a little bit,but I feel like there's a lot of
symmetry between him and some ofthe other people we've talked
(06:47):
about.
Arpita (06:48):
Yeah.
Aarati (06:48):
In terms of loving nature and liking to build
things.
So after secondary school, hisparents encouraged him to pursue
higher education.
So he enrolled in high school atUtrecht Technical School.
And this was several miles awayfrom his home, so he ended up
actually living with a familyfriend, Dr.
(07:10):
Jan Wilhelm Gunning, who taughtchemistry and pharmacy at the
Utrecht University, and Wilhelmwas really welcomed into the
Gunning family, and it was Dr.
Gunning who truly inspiredWilhelm to pursue science.
However, Wilhelm was kind of amixed bag when it came to his
(07:31):
classes.
He got good grades in math,chemistry, languages, and art,
but ironically he scored quoteunquote very bad in physics.
And if that wasn't bad enough,one day Wilhelm's science career
almost ended completely when oneof his fellow students drew a
caricature of their teacher onthe blackboard.
(07:53):
And when the teacher saw it,they demanded to know who drew
it, and somehow the blame fellon Wilhelm, and Wilhelm refused
to give up the name of theperson who really drew it, and
so he was expelled from highschool.
Arpita (08:06):
That's funny, at least he's loyal, I guess.
Aarati (08:09):
I don't know.
I don't know why you would notgive up the name of the student.
But yeah, he, he was expelledfrom high school.
Arpita (08:15):
Snitches get stitches.
Aarati (08:17):
I, apparently.
And so now without a high schooldiploma, he wasn't able to
register as a student at theUtrecht University, which was
kind of his goal because Dr.
Gunning was a professor thereand there was like, that was
such an inspiration for him.
And to further put a nail inthat coffin, he failed the
(08:38):
entrance exam anyway for theuniversity.
So, he was allowed to audit theclasses at Utrecht University,
but he wasn't allowed to takeexams or get any credit.
Arpita (08:50):
Okay.
Aarati (08:51):
But he was doing that.
He was auditing math andscience, um, but then a friend
of his, Carl Thormann, told himto try the Swiss Polytechnical
School in Zurich because theydidn't require a high school
diploma in order for you toenter college, which I don't
understand.
Arpita (09:07):
Odd.
Aarati (09:08):
Different times, I guess.
So Wilhelm was like, that soundslike a good idea, so he went off
to Switzerland and he enrolls inthe Polytechnical Institute as a
mechanical engineering major.
And again, here, Wilhelm is nota great student.
After his first year, he got awarning that if he kept getting
low grades, he wouldn't beallowed to move forward.
And he got the same warningafter his second year.
(09:29):
So he's barely scraping by here.
Arpita (09:33):
Why did he register as mechanical engineering?
Wasn't he really bad at physics?
Aarati (09:37):
Yeah, I don't know, but he liked to build things, I
guess.
And,
Arpita (09:41):
Okay.
Okay.
I was wondering if there waslike a real reason why he did
that.
I'm like, wasn't, this doesn'tseem to be playing to his
strengths, I guess, is what I'mtrying to say.
Aarati (09:48):
It doesn't, and the thing, well the things that I
read about him were that he kindof was more into thinking about
things in a more abstract way,like theoretical things, but
then when it came down to likestructure and doing things
practically, he wasn't great atthat.
Arpita (10:06):
Got it.
Aarati (10:07):
So, he liked to think about things like kind of in a
broad sense, but then he hadtrouble kind of with details,
which again is ironic, we'regoing to get to that.
Yeah.
But he worked really, reallyhard and his professors were
very invested in helping him.
So by the end of his third year,he was actually doing pretty
well in his classes.
So he got his diploma and then Iguess this was like an option
(10:32):
for graduates of thepolytechnical school that he was
at.
So after his undergrad, he wasgiven the option to enroll into
a one year PhD program at ZurichUniversity.
So again, I'm like, this isunheard of, like, yeah, just go
to school for a year and getyour PhD.
Arpita (10:49):
Yeah, I, I'm confused by the, okay, carry on, carry on.
Aarati (10:52):
Yes, but I think it's also that this is like the
1800s, and so physics is like,wow, you discovered a particle?
Amazing, you get your PhD andnow you're famous, you know?
Arpita (11:05):
You get a PhD and you get a PhD.
Aarati (11:07):
Exactly.
So he does that.
He goes to study for his PhD atZurich University and he goes
from studying mechanicalengineering to physics, and here
he studied under ProfessorRudolf Clausius and August
Kundt, who, once again, werevery dedicated to helping
(11:28):
Wilhelm succeed.
As a student, Wilhelm was veryhardworking, and he was also
very introverted, so when hewasn't studying, he had a small
group of friends that he wouldhang out with.
He loved going for hikes in themountains and rowing boats on
the lake, so he was not like aparty person, he didn't like
talking to people a lot, but heenjoyed kind of more quiet,
(11:51):
reserved, outdoorsy typeactivities.
He also enjoyed eating at alocal inn, where it just so
happened the innkeeper'sdaughter, Anna Bertha Lundwig,
or Bertha, Ludwing.
Sorry.
Anna Bertha Ludwing.
Um, I said it like threedifferent ways now.
(12:13):
Anyway, she went by the nameBertha, which I can say.
So she worked as a waitress atthis inn and he liked to eat
there.
Um, probably for more reasonsthan one.
So after his year in Zurich, hepublished his dissertation
entitled Study of Gases, whichwas, you guessed it, a study of
behaviors of gases at differenttemperatures and pressures, and
(12:34):
that's like literally all heneeded to get his PhD.
Arpita (12:37):
Like P= nRT?
Like, what are we talking about?
Aarati (12:40):
I guess so?
I think it was just like, howdoes this gas behave at this
temperature, and what is thepressure at that temperature?
And then now if I lower thetemperature, what's the
pressure?
And like
Arpita (12:49):
Are you serious?
Aarati (12:50):
Like, this is what it sounds like to me.
Arpita (12:53):
I think my chemistry homework was harder than that.
Aarati (12:55):
I know, it definitely was.
So, but he was basically doing alot of work on like, entropy and
thermodynamics types of things.
Okay.
On the same day he graduatedfrom his PhD, he went to that
inn where Bertha worked and heproposed to her.
Arpita (13:11):
I also got proposed to the day I defended.
Aarati (13:14):
Did you really?
Arpita (13:15):
Yeah.
Aarati (13:15):
Oh my god, that's so cute.
I didn't know that.
That's adorable.
Arpita (13:20):
It was a long day.
Aarati (13:21):
Way to increase your chances when you're really
happy.
She's in a good mood.
Arpita (13:26):
I think that's what happened.
It's like how sleep deprived anddelirious could she possibly be?
Let's increase the chances.
Aarati (13:33):
Yeah, exactly.
In this case, PhD and he's like,"Great.
I'm going to go propose to mygirl." So she accepted, but
Wilhelm's father did not approveof the marriage first, because
Bertha was six years older thanWilhelm was, and she also came
from a poor family.
(13:55):
So his father said if they gotmarried, he would cut off all
his financial support.
So Wilhelm was like, Okay, Iguess I gotta go get a job then.
So around this time, ProfessorKundt, who Wilhelm had been
working with during his PhD, gotan appointment as the chair of
physics at the University ofWürzburg back in Germany.
(14:17):
And Professor Kundt had a reallyhigh opinion of Wilhelm, and he
appointed him as his assistantin his new lab.
So Wilhelm moved back toGermany, while Bertha went to
live with Wilhelm's parents fora while so she could learn
German cooking and housekeepingskills from Wilhelm's mother.
So preparing for married life,basically.
Arpita (14:39):
Yeah, cute.
Aarati (14:41):
Yeah.
And although Wilhelm's fatherdidn't really approve of Bertha,
Wilhelm's mom found Bertha to beloving and quote unquote
careful, which I took to meanthat she paid attention to
detail, so.
Arpita (14:55):
Oh, those are probably translated, right?
So it's probably not careful inEnglish.
Aarati (15:00):
Yeah, true.
So, I was like, okay, at leastWilhelm's mom likes Bertha.
After about two years, in 1872,Wilhelm and Bertha got married
at the Röntgen's home.
And true to his word, Wilhelm'sfather cut off his financial
support.
But at this point, Wilhelm andBertha were okay living on
Wilhelm's salary at theUniversity of Würzburg, so it
(15:22):
wasn't much.
They weren't, like, super welloff, but it was enough to get
by.
However, the university was verypoorly funded, and Professor
Kundt and Wilhelm found that itjust wasn't very well equipped
for setting up a new physicslab.
Luckily for them, the FrancoGerman War had just ended in
1871, and France had ceded someland over to Germany, including
(15:44):
the city of Strasbourg.
Therefore, the University ofStrasbourg was being reorganized
to become a German institutionnow.
And Professor Kundt was asked tobe the chair of physics there.
So Kundt went to Strasbourg andWilhelm went with him.
And after a few years, Wilhelm'sparents even moved to Strasbourg
to be closer to him.
(16:04):
So it sounds like they're very,like, close knit family.
Here Wilhelm published a fewmore papers.
One was on specific heat ofcertain gases, one was details
about using an air barometer tospecifically measure gas
pressure, one was on the heatconductivity of crystals, and
finally one on the electricalcharacteristics of quartz.
(16:25):
A lot of, a lot of thermo, likea lot of thermodynamics.
Arpita (16:29):
Yeah, interesting.
Okay.
Aarati (16:30):
Yeah.
But what's really important tonote about this work is, like,
none of it was particularlygroundbreaking.
Most of it was repeatingexperiments that other people
had already done, but he wasmaybe using, like, a slightly
different method.
Or he was trying to get the sameresults and then trying to
explain any discrepancies hesaw.
Arpita (16:50):
Okay.
Aarati (16:51):
And so that's a really important point as to the type
of scientist he was.
He was like spending a lot oftime being very precise about
his measurements.
Um, and so it would take himyears to publish a paper, but
most of the time it wasn't like,Oh my gosh, this amazing
discovery that he's made.
Arpita (17:09):
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes sense.
It also does sound like a lot ofjunior faculty papers, right?
It's like you're not doing yourmost groundbreaking research
yet.
You're sort of getting your nameout there and, you know, either
refining protocols or validatingresults, like making smaller
steps as opposed to like yourbiggest paper.
Aarati (17:30):
Yeah, and he also like it was kind of part of his
personality to kind of go chaseafter like the little why is
this little thing happening thatmaybe other scientists had
noticed but it wasn't part oftheir bigger picture so they
kind of disregarded it, but hewould go and chase down that
little detail and be like what'shappening there can I explain
(17:50):
that one little thing.
Arpita (17:52):
Gotcha.
Aarati (17:53):
Yeah, he also spent a lot of time trying to find
practical evidence for physicstheories, but often hit a dead
end because the instruments atthe time were just not advanced
enough to prove or disprovecertain theories.
After about a year with Kundt'shelp and a strong
recommendation, Wilhelm was ableto get a position as a lecturer
in 1875, and then he was offereda full professorship position at
(18:16):
the Agricultural Academy ofStuttgart Hohenheim.
The move to Stuttgart Hohenheimwas a little bit of an emotional
one for Wilhelm because althoughthe position came with a pay
increase and he wasautomatically able to become a
German citizen because of theposition that it was, it also
meant that he had to leavebehind Professor Kundt who had
(18:38):
really taken him under his wingand influenced his work, and it
also meant moving away fromStrasbourg, away from his
friends and family.
Also, the housing that theyprovided at Hohenheim was pretty
terrible, and Wilhelm was alwayscomplaining about the rats in
the place.
So, yeah, not good.
So, unsurprisingly, after abouta year and a half, Professor
(19:01):
Kundt wrote a letter saying,Hey, if you want to come back to
Strasbourg, I will recommend youto be the new chair of
theoretical physics here.
And Wilhelm was like, yes,please.
And he and Bertha went back toStrasbourg.
Arpita (19:13):
Yeah, how do you pass that up?
Especially when you're livingwith rats.
Aarati (19:16):
Yeah, I mean, it's like, I will take the pay decrease to
go back and live with my friendsand family in a non rat infested
house.
Arpita (19:25):
Yeah, it's a no brainer.
Aarati (19:26):
Yeah.
So he's bouncing around a lot atthis point in his life.
Um, after three years atStrasburg, William published 15
papers in physics and was trulybecoming a rising star in the
field.
Because of this, in 1879, he'snominated to be the chair of
physics at the University ofGiessen.
He was even recommended byHermann von Helmholtz, who is a
(19:48):
very famous physicist knowntoday for his work in energy
conservation and optics.
So he moves to Giessen, he staysthere for almost 10 years, and
again his parents followed himto live with him there.
They, at this point, are veryproud of him because he's
essentially building his owncareer without any sort of
patron or outside financialsupport, which I guess was
(20:11):
common at the time.
Arpita (20:13):
That does make sense.
Yeah.
Aarati (20:14):
Yeah.
Arpita (20:15):
Does the dad come around then?
Aarati (20:18):
Um, I think he, the dad is proud of him, but not enough
to give him money.
Arpita (20:23):
Give him money.
Aarati (20:24):
Yeah.
But at this point it's like, oh,but he doesn't need it anymore.
Arpita (20:27):
It doesn't matter.
Aarati (20:28):
He doesn't.
Yeah.
It doesn't.
He, he made his own, he made hisown way.
Arpita (20:31):
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay, okay.
Aarati (20:33):
At Giessen, both of his parents actually passed away.
His mother died a year after hemoved there and his father died
four years later.
They were both buried in Giessenand it was a pretty hard loss
for Wilhelm because he reallyloved his parents, like pretty
obviously they were followingeach other around, you know,
Europe.
And even ten years later,there's a letter where he wrote
(20:54):
to a friend reminiscing abouthis mother and how he still
misses her.
Arpita (20:58):
Oh.
Aarati (20:59):
Yeah.
So.
At Giessen, Wilhelm was asked todesign a new physics department.
The old ones were really crampedand over 30 years old, so he was
given a new space to work in.
He also taught experimentalphysics, giving lectures on
optics, heat, and electricity.
And he published about 20 morepapers during this time on a
(21:23):
bunch of different things,namely the properties of quartz
and also the photophone, whichwas invented by Alexander Graham
Bell.
Um, and it was a precursor tothe telephone.
So the photophone was a way totransmit sound, but using light
waves instead of electricity.
Arpita (21:41):
Oh, I was going to ask what the photo was, but okay.
Aarati (21:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, but again, it's worthnoting, Wilhelm was really just
adding his two cents here.
Like Alexander Graham Bell isthe one who got the acclaim for
that invention of thephotophone.
And Wilhelm was just like, Oh,also it does this one other
little thing that not manypeople cared about, you know, so
he's doing a lot of these typesof experiments with gases and
(22:07):
pressure changes,thermodynamics, um, and how
different types of light wavesare absorbed by different
materials.
And so now we're building up tohis big discovery, but we're not
quite there yet, but thethorough way in which he
conducted his experiments andthe quality of his publications
gained him a lot of recognition.
(22:29):
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That's S Y K O M M E R dot com.
Okay, back to the story.
(23:13):
In 1888, he was offered theposition of a Professor of
physics and the director of thenew physical institute at the
University of Würzburg.
So Wilhelm, who is now 43, movesto Würzburg with Bertha.
And at this point, Wilhelm andBertha still did not have any
(23:33):
children.
And since Bertha was six yearsolder than Wilhelm, and so was
approaching 50 years at thispoint, it was highly unlikely
that she was going to be able toconceive.
And this was a really big sourceof pain for both of them, but
especially for Bertha becauseshe loved children.
Yeah.
But in 1887, Bertha's onlybrother died and left behind a
(23:55):
six year old daughter,Josephine.
So Wilhelm and Bertha took inJosephine and basically made her
like their daughter.
And then when she was 21, theylegally adopted her.
Arpita (24:08):
Aww, that's very cute.
Aarati (24:10):
Yeah, so they became really close.
They were like a very tightfamily unit.
They would go be out in natureall the time, go on hikes.
They would take family vacationstogether.
And so overall, life in Würzburgis going pretty great.
Arpita (24:24):
Yeah.
Aarati (24:26):
Okay.
So now we're finally getting tothe main event.
In the 1890s, scientists allover the world were studying the
properties of cathode rays.
So we talked about these alittle bit.
Arpita (24:38):
Yeah.
Aarati (24:38):
In the episode on Percy Spencer, the inventor of the
microwave oven.
So just a quick reminder.
A cathode ray is created in avacuum tube and is made of glass
that has a cathode or anegatively charged electrode on
one end and an anode thepositively charged electrode on
the other end and when you sendenergy through it negatively
(25:00):
charged electrons stream off thecathode and move towards the
anode.
And scientists can actually seethis beam of electrons, um,
moving through the tube becausethe vacuum tube is coated in
phosphor and it makes theelectron beam or cathode ray
show up as a green beam oflight.
(25:22):
So actually, if you see videosof this, it's super cool
looking.
Arpita (25:25):
Yeah.
Aarati (25:26):
But at the time scientists did not know what
cathode rays actually werebecause they didn't even know
what electrons were so...
Arpita (25:34):
Interesting.
Aarati (25:34):
They were just like putting energy through this tube
seeing this beam of green lightand being like cool.
What's that?
You know?
They didn't know what it was.
They had no...
they didn't know what propertiesit had, they didn't know what
made it up.
And so that's what all thesescientists are trying to figure
out basically.
And there were two physicists inparticular, Heinrich Hertz and
(25:56):
Philipp Lenard, trying to figurethis out, and they made a
version of the cathode ray tubethat had a window on one end
that they covered with differentmaterials to see if the cathode
ray could pass through it.
So, when they covered the windowwith gold or silver, the cathode
ray got absorbed and couldn'tpass through, but it could pass
(26:19):
through aluminum foil.
So you're sending energy throughthis tube, it's going from the
cathode to the aluminum foil andactually going through the
aluminum foil out of the vacuumtube.
Arpita (26:30):
And it has to do with the density of aluminum versus
the density of gold and silver?
Okay.
Aarati (26:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But once it did get through thealuminum foil, it would kind of
dissipate really fast.
It would only survive for abouta few centimeters before dying
off.
So it couldn't exist like thecathode ray couldn't exist for
very long outside of the vacuumtube.
But now they could actuallystudy like what effects the
cathode ray had on differentthings outside of the vacuum
(26:59):
tube.
So they were experimenting byholding up different materials
in front of the cathode rays andnoting that some of them would
heat up or fluoresce, but again,that was about the extent of
their knowledge.
Arpita (27:11):
They were kind of just messing around a little bit.
Aarati (27:13):
Yeah.
Arpita (27:14):
They're just like, what happens now?
Aarati (27:15):
Exactly.
Let's point this cathode atsomething and see what happens.
Arpita (27:19):
Okay.
Aarati (27:20):
That's exactly what they're doing.
So the important one to note isthey found that if they held up
a screen covered in bariumplatinocyanide crystals, they
would start to fluoresce.
Arpita (27:32):
What is that?
And where did they get it?
Aarati (27:33):
Yeah, so I don't know.
Um, they don't know why thishappened.
It was like one of many thingsthat they were studying and they
were just making a note that heywe've got this screen.
We covered it in bariumplatinocyanide crystals for
whatever reason and Hey, look,they glow great, you know, like
but why do they glow?
(27:54):
We don't know.
So they're just making a note.
Arpita (27:56):
Why do they have?
Bario, what is it?
Aarati (27:59):
Barium platinocyanide crystals.
It was like a list of like manydifferent things.
I'm sure there's a physicsreason for why they chose that
as their short list, but I thinkthey were doing like many
different, um, types ofmaterials.
And that was just one that willbecome important to Wilhelm's
story.
So that's why I'm justmentioning that one, but there
(28:20):
were other materials that likeeither heated up or would
fluoresce or whatever that theywere also making a note of.
So, Wilhelm read about Hertz andLenard's experiments, and he
wanted to replicate them.
So, he built his own version oftheir cathode ray tube with the
window and covered it withaluminum foil, just like they
had.
(28:41):
And then he wrapped the wholetube in black cardboard so no
visible light would interferewith his experiments.
And on November 8th, 1895,Wilhelm attempted to replicate
this particular experiment withthe barium platinocyanide
crystals.
So, he got a screen that wascovered in the crystals, he cut
off a small piece, and he setthe bigger piece aside on his
(29:04):
bench.
And then he held up the smallpiece of the screen in front of
the cathode rays.
And it started to fluoresce, butthen he noticed that the larger
piece of the screen that he hadleft lying on the bench a few
meters away was also fluorescingand he's like, that's weird
because scientists knew that thecathode ray once it left the
(29:27):
vacuum tube would die off aftera few centimeters and he wasn't
even holding up that part of thescreen in front of the cathode
ray.
So
Arpita (29:35):
It's like a few meters away.
Aarati (29:36):
Yeah.
So he's like, huh, somethingelse is causing this
fluorescence and it must be somekind of ray that's invisible,
but was able to pass through thecardboard that he had covered
the cathode ray tube in.
So initially Wilhelm likecouldn't really believe what he
(29:57):
was seeing.
So for the next few weeks, hekept his discovery a complete
secret.
He holed himself up in his labfor weeks trying to find some
explanation.
Like, he just couldn't believethis phenomenon was real.
So, he was putting all of thesematerials in front of the
crystal screen, like huge stacksof books and planks of wood, but
(30:17):
the crystals kept fluorescing.
So, like, whatever was causingthe crystals to light up was not
only not dying off as soon as itleft the vacuum tube, but it was
moving through these heavymaterials and still causing the
crystals to fluoresce.
He placed the crystals on aphotographic plate so he could
take a picture, and then hestarted checking out what
(30:37):
happened to other things.
And he was astonished to findthat when he put a compass on
the photographic plate and tooka picture, he could see the
needle of the compass eventhrough the metal case when it
was closed.
Arpita (30:50):
Oh, yeah.
I see.
Like, it's like an old school,just kind of clamshell
situation, and he can see insideof it even when it's closed.
Oh, that's cool.
Aarati (30:59):
Yeah.
So, like, these rays are passingthrough the metal case and
allowing him to see like theinside of it of the compass.
Arpita (31:08):
Pretty cool.
That would probably blow my mindtoo.
Aarati (31:10):
Yeah.
And then he tried his own handand of course saw the bones his
own bones in the photograph thathe took.
And I think, obviously,initially, this kind of freaked
him out, um, like, yeah, so whenhis wife Bertha kept asking him,
(31:30):
like,"What's going on?
You're holed up in your lab allday, like you're not coming
out." All he would say was thatif people knew what he was
doing, they, quote, would sayRoentgen must have gone out of
his mind," basically.
Arpita (31:42):
I mean, it's not entirely, you know, out of the
realm of possibility.
Aarati (31:47):
Yeah, because he, he just couldn't believe that like
what he was seeing...
he just couldn't fathom thatthis was a thing So he was like
I must be making this up.
I must be having some sort ofhallucination.
I cannot literally be seeing mybones right now.
This is insane.
Arpita (32:03):
If he was a lady, he would be a witch.
So...
Aarati (32:06):
Yes.
Oh my god.
Good point So speaking of um,finally on December 22nd, he
brought Bertha into his lab andhe turned on the cathode ray
placed her hand in front of thephotographic plate and took a
picture of it and in it.
She could clearly see the bonesof her own hand and her wedding
(32:27):
ring kind of floating around herfinger.
Arpita (32:30):
That's cool.
Yeah.
I mean, they make sense.
But yeah.
Aarati (32:33):
Yeah.
So initially creeped out by theimage too.
And she thought that she wasseeing a vision of her own
death.
Arpita (32:41):
Mmm, I mean, yeah, I get it.
Aarati (32:44):
So, this image has now become famous as one of the
first radiology images, orRöntgengrams.
So, finally now, he's convincedhimself he wasn't crazy, that
he, what he had found was real.
And he published his findings ina paper called On a New Kind of
Rays.
Since he had no idea what theserays were, he just called them
(33:05):
X-rays'cause he couldn't thinkof a better name for them.
Arpita (33:10):
That's so funny.
I actually was wondering whythey were called X-rays.
Aarati (33:14):
Yeah, just it doesn't stand for anything.
It's just like X is justunknown.
Arpita (33:19):
Like a placeholder like literally solve for x.
Oh, interesting.
Aarati (33:23):
He was just like, I don't know what they are, so I'm
just gonna say X.
In the paper, he noted thatthere were certain things that
these X-rays could pass through,like wood, cloth, and soft
tissues in humans, but not otherthings like certain metals and
bones.
And now we know, actually thanksto one of Wilhelm's own students
who followed up on his research,that X-rays are a type of
(33:47):
electromagnetic radiation.
They're on the opposite end ofthe spectrum as microwaves.
So microwaves, radio waves, andinfrared waves have really long
wavelengths, longer than we cansee with the naked eye.
Then we have our very smalllittle window of visible light
with all the color wavelengthsthat we can see.
And then the waves get too shortfor us to see.
(34:09):
And that's the ultraviolet rangeand X-rays fall into that range
as well.
Arpita (34:14):
And then gamma rays?
Aarati (34:15):
Yeah, and gamma rays.
Yeah.
Arpita (34:17):
Okay.
Aarati (34:17):
And since X-rays are so short, between 0.
01 and 10 nanometers, they canpass through a lot of different
materials.
Arpita (34:27):
Right.
Aarati (34:27):
So things that are really dense, or elements that
have higher numbers of electronsor like higher, or I guess lower
on the periodic table, they canblock X-rays from passing
through.
And so that's why X-rays canpass through our soft tissue,
like our muscle and fat and skinbecause it's less dense.
It's made of lower numberedelements like hydrogen and
(34:51):
carbon, a lot of water, oxygen,nitrogen, like those elements
and X-rays can pass rightthrough, but bones are made of
calcium and that's higher up onthe periodic table or lower
down, I guess, if you'relooking, it has a higher number
Arpita (35:06):
Higher atomic number.
Aarati (35:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so they don't allow X-raysto go through them.
And so they clearly show up.
Arpita (35:13):
And so like her wedding band or the sheet of gold.
Aarati (35:16):
Yeah, exactly.
So when Wilhelm published hisfindings, initially many
physicists were very skepticaland were like, no way this is a
thing.
But after seeing the images ofBertha's hand and repeating the
experiments for themselves, thescientific community was amazed
and super excited.
They immediately saw what a hugebreakthrough this was and
(35:37):
Wilhelm became an overnightsensation.
He was not super thrilled bythis because he was an, he was
an introvert and he really hatedthe attention.
Um, he declined numerousinterviews with the press, but
in January, the German EmperorWilhelm II invited him to give a
demonstration of the X-rays tothe court in Berlin.
(36:00):
And that's not really aninvitation that he could
decline.
Arpita (36:03):
Sure, that's like a, that's like a volun-told.
Aarati (36:07):
Yes, exactly.
So Wilhelm went, he gave hisdemonstration, and he talked
about the potential militaryapplications X-rays could have,
and the emperor was highlyimpressed and gave him the
Prussian Order of the Crown,second class.
The next day, Wilhelm gave hisonly public lecture ever on
(36:28):
X-rays.
When he entered the auditorium,he was shocked to see that it
was fully packed, with studentseven sitting on the stairs
between the aisles.
Yeah, he's like, what are allthese people doing here?
They gave him a standing ovationwhen he entered, which visibly
moved him.
After his lecture, people begancalling the rays Roentgen rays.
(36:52):
However, as we know, theoriginal name of X-rays kind of
ended up sticking.
He also refused to pursue anypatents associated with X-rays
because he firmly believed thatthis kind of technology should
be freely accessible for thegood of all people.
So.
That was nice.
Uh, when he made his discovery,the implications for healthcare
(37:12):
was obviously one of the biggestthings people were excited
about.
And as a result, Wilhelm wasawarded an honorary doctorate of
medicine from the University ofWürzburg.
He and Philipp Lenard alsojointly received the Rumford
Medal for Astounding Achievementin Physics from the British
Royal Society in 1896.
And I think that brings up thepoint for a lot of people that
(37:33):
Lenard had been very close todiscovering X-rays and had
probably even kind of noticedthe same phenomenon that Wilhelm
did, but just didn't follow upon it.
Like just again, like that waswhat Wilhelm was doing.
Arpita (37:50):
He's really focused on the details.
Yeah.
That's super interesting thatlike, yeah.
Cause like so many people weremessing with it, that he was
actually the one to be like,Wait, there's something else
here.
Yeah, interesting.
Aarati (38:01):
There's something else happening here.
And so some people called itlucky because like, so like you
were saying, so many people weremessing around with cathode rays
and it was just luck that hestumbled on this.
But one of his students laterpointed out that it really was
because of his nature of himfollowing up on every single
little detail and asking whythat...
Arpita (38:21):
yeah.
Aarati (38:21):
...he discovered X-rays.
Arpita (38:23):
I mean, so much of this, I mean, I don't like to call it
luck, but it kind of is a littlebit of right place, right time,
so he's in the right situationwhere he has the material to
explore this, and it has notquite been discovered yet, and
so, you know, there is a mix of,you know, you need all the
ingredients to make it happen,but I wouldn't say that he just
like stumbled into it.
(38:43):
You know, he was looking.
I think there are some thingswhere it's like totally a
mistake.
Like someone made a mistake andthen this resulted in it.
I don't think this is that.
Aarati (38:52):
Yeah, no, because I think there was a lot of people
were like, Oh, well, you know,this other scientist should have
gotten the credit or this otherscientist really just like saw
this phenomenon first.
Like they, they, noticedsomething first that now we know
is probably caused by X-rays andthey were the first ones to make
this observation that like thisthing is glowing.
Arpita (39:13):
That's different.
Aarati (39:14):
But they didn't follow it up, you know, and that's why
they didn't make the discoveryfirst.
Arpita (39:20):
That's not a discovery, but yeah, no, I agree.
Aarati (39:22):
So following his discovery, the Bavarian
government asked him to chairthe physics department at the
University of Munich.
And again, this is kind of likea volun-told situation, like you
were saying, like the governmentis saying, hey, you need to go
to the University of Munich.
So Wilhelm and Bertha moved toMunich, but they weren't happy
at all about leaving Würzburg.
(39:43):
They miss their friends andcolleagues and the calm,
friendly atmosphere.
And in comparison, they foundMunich and its people to be kind
of stuffy, and they had a reallyhard time getting along with
anyone.
Arpita (39:54):
That's so funny, because they're all German, and I'm
like, you guys are all stuffy,so.
Aarati (40:00):
I mean, to me, it kind of sounded more like they were
very outdoorsy, and like, kindof like this calm, laid back
kind of country living, and nowthey're moving into a city, and
they're just like, surrounded byall these like fast paced kind
of high society people, and hejust wasn't that type of person.
(40:20):
So, despite his new fame, herejected the offer to join the
class of nobility in Munich,which annoyed a lot of the noble
people because they felt like hewas snubbing them.
So, Just not good at makingfriends, this guy.
But he really just was not intothe attention, like he did not,
he did not want to be part ofthe upper class, he did not
(40:42):
want, you know, all of that.
But this brings us to 1901,which is the inaugural year of
the Nobel Prizes.
So although Wilhelm haddiscovered X-rays five years ago
at this point, It's value tosociety was so obvious that
there was really no questionwithin the Nobel Prize committee
as to who was going to win theNobel Prize in physics.
(41:04):
So when Wilhelm heard the newsthat he had won, he was
thrilled.
He traveled to Stockholm wherehe received the prize and 150,
000 Swedish kronor, which isequivalent to about$900, 000
today.
Arpita (41:19):
Damn.
Aarati (41:19):
Yeah, But he didn't keep any of it.
He donated it all to theUniversity of Würzburg for their
continued research.
Arpita (41:27):
Wow.
Aarati (41:28):
Yeah.
Wilhelm stayed at the Universityof Munich until 1920.
Unfortunately, the years had notbeen kind to him and Bertha.
So, during World War I, peoplewere asked to give up their gold
and jewelry for the war effort,and Wilhelm was very patriotic,
and so he gave what he had,including the gold Rumford medal
(41:49):
that he had won with Lenard.
Arpita (41:51):
Oh, yeah.
Aarati (41:52):
But he did hang on to his Nobel Prize medal.
He wasn't giving that one up.
Arpita (41:57):
Good for him.
Yeah.
Aarati (41:58):
Yeah.
Arpita (41:58):
Yeah.
Aarati (42:00):
But when Germany lost the war, all of his war bonds
lost most of their value.
And then as the years passed,inflation made most of his
savings lose value as well.
So towards the end of his life,he was basically living in
poverty.
Arpita (42:14):
Wow, that's crazy.
Aarati (42:15):
I know.
I was like, I find that so sad.
But at the same time, I waslike, well, you're the one who
decided not to patent it.
You're the one who gave awaylike almost a million dollars.
In 1919, Bertha died at the ageof 80 after a long battle with
kidney and respiratory problems.
Her death, of course, was verysad for Wilhelm, and without her
(42:37):
he became even more introvertedand reclusive.
He retired from the Universityof Munich and burned most of his
letters and notes, includingmany of the papers from around
the time when he firstdiscovered X-rays.
Arpita (42:51):
Interesting.
Why?
Aarati (42:52):
I know.
To me, that raised the samequestion.
I was like, I feel like at leastthree or four times now we've
heard of scientists burningtheir notes and burning their
research.
Arpita (43:02):
Yeah, why?
Like, what's the thoughtprocess?
Like, they just don't wantanyone to find?
Aarati (43:06):
I wasn't sure.
Arpita (43:07):
I guess the most interesting thing about it is
like how 180 we are now where Ijust feel like my first like
step into even like chem lab waslike write everything down like
everything that you do down andlike keeping lab notebooks is
like a religion and so I'm justcurious like that wasn't that
long ago it was like early 1900so it's like What, like what
(43:32):
changed in such a short amountof time that people were burning
their notes to then being like,we're going to keep religious
notes.
I don't know.
I just like a philosophy thingthat I'm curious about.
Aarati (43:42):
Yeah, I don't really understand his thought process
because, like, unlike John B.
Watson, who we talked about acouple episodes ago, like, he
burned his notes, I think,because he was kind of ashamed
of what he had researched interms of child psychology and
things like that, which Iunderstood that.
But this, I was like, I don'tknow why you're burning your
notes.
And I think a lot of historianswere kind of upset about that,
(44:04):
too, because there's a lot thatwe don't actually know about his
discovery and X-rays becauseit's gone now, you know, so,
Arpita (44:12):
But like for no real reason.
Yeah, that's yeah,
Aarati (44:16):
It is.
It is weird.
He spent his final few yearsvisiting the few friends he had
left in 1921.
He suffered from internalbleeding, which his doctor said
was due to hemorrhoids, butWilhelm figured that he really
actually had intestinal cancer.
Um, I think he could just tellby the way he felt and things.
(44:36):
So he died at his home onFebruary 10th, 1923 at the age
of 78.
And he was given what basicallyamounted to a royal funeral,
like members of the former royalfamily were present, as well as
several prominent members of thescientific and physics
communities.
(44:57):
He was cremated and his asheswere buried next to Bertha's and
his parents in Giessen.
So today, X-rays are still usedeverywhere, obviously, um, most
obviously we use them formedical procedures to identify
broken bones, tumors, and othertypes of injuries in the body.
They are also used for securitypurposes to screen like bags at
(45:19):
the airport and at differentconcerts and events.
William Röntgen is also stillremembered today, not just by
the scientific community but theworld in general.
There are several streets.
Named after him, and there's aplaque on the house where he
lived as a PhD student inZurich, as well as a memorial in
(45:40):
Geissen that is kind of anabstract version of X-rays
passing through a huge stone.
It's pretty cool.
Arpita (45:48):
That's really cool.
Aarati (45:49):
Yeah.
There's even a mountain peak inAntarctica named Röntgen Peak
after him.
Arpita (45:55):
Wow.
Really?
That's so random.
Why?
Aarati (45:57):
Yeah.
I don't know.
Maybe because he was outdoorsy.
He loved hiking and adventuring,I guess.
Yeah, he was like a very avidmountain climber, so.
In 2004, element 111 on theperiodic table was named
Roentgenium, Roentgenium, yeah.
Arpita (46:16):
Those get weird.
I feel like after a certainatomic number, they get weird.
Real weird, like, like peoplejust start using their names and
I'm like,
Aarati (46:22):
Yeah, people just started like I know there's like
Einsteinium and there'sNobelium.
Um, or something.
There's like a whole bunch ofdifferent ones.
So, but I have to say like theoriginal IUPAC name that was
given to element 111 was like,Unununium It's like, U N U N U N
I U M.
(46:42):
And I was like, who?
Arpita (46:43):
Who's in charge of this?
I have feedback.
Yeah.
Aarati (46:46):
I'm like, Roentgenium is much better.
Thank you for changing that.
Arpita (46:50):
Yeah.
Aarati (46:50):
Yeah.
And finally, November 8th, whichis the day that Wilhelm first
noticed that the bariumplatinocyanide crystals in his
lab were fluorescing, is nowcelebrated as World Radiology
Day.
And I thought that was supercool personally, because
November 8th also happens to bemy birthday.
(47:11):
So, yeah, back to those fellowScorpios.
Arpita (47:17):
Scorpios!
Aarati (47:17):
Yeah.
So, yeah, that's his story.
Arpita (47:19):
I loved it.
Great story.
That's so fun.
I like that story a lot.
Aarati (47:25):
Yeah, I thought it was super fun.
Super cool.
Arpita (47:30):
Thanks for listening.
If you have a suggestion for astory we should cover or
thoughts you want to share aboutan episode, reach out to us at
smartteapodcast.
com.
You can follow us on Instagramand Twitter@smartteapodcast and
listen to us on Spotify, ApplePodcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
And leave us a rating orcomment.
It really helps us grow.
Special thanks to our editor,James Fixx.
(47:52):
New episodes are released everyother Wednesday.
See you next time!
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